“My Autism Keeps Upsetting People” - Vittorio Angelone - #1119

Summary

Modern Wisdom with Chris Williamson

Episode #1119: "My Autism Keeps Upsetting People" – Vittorio Angelone
Released: July 4, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging, candid episode, Chris Williamson sits down with standup comedian Vittorio Angelone to unpack the realities of an adult autism diagnosis, neurodiversity, comedy, cultural quirks, and the awkward, often hilarious trials of living abroad and on tour. Both explore the differences between UK and US comedy, the internet culture’s impact on public personas, masculinity, and how social mishaps can inform one’s self-identity. The conversation is rich in personal anecdotes, British-Irish humor, explorations of social faux pas, and thoughtful reflection on belonging, ambition, and authenticity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Early Influences & Self-Help

00:00–01:29

• Vittorio openly admits to finding Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life helpful in his early twenties, despite current embarrassment:
  Vittorio: "I’m so embarrassed...something about me and my audience would hate the fact that I really found Jordan Peterson very helpful and made my girlfriend watch it when I was 22." (00:12)
• Reflects on the need for self-discipline and personal responsibility as a young man—describing self-help as a necessary kick:
  Vittorio: "I needed someone to go, fucking, come on, man, grow up. Get your shit together." (00:46)

The Nashville Spiking Incident

01:29–11:00

• Vittorio recounts a chaotic night on tour in Nashville, believing he was spiked after a show by rowdy locals:
  • Symptoms included vomiting, severe hangover, and memory blackouts.
  • Entered a US urgent care center and was treated for likely being drugged. Chris: "You beat them so badly that you nearly started a fight." (07:28) Vittorio: "If I was a batting man, my money’s on Jimbo, which was his actual name. Shout out to Jimbo." (07:52)
• Used a wheelchair through the airport by exploiting a little-known “life hack.”
• Dark comedic highlight: shitting himself at the 9/11 Memorial in New York due to stomach upset.
  Vittorio: "I myself at the 911 memorial…I’ve shit my pants. I’ve shit my full pants." (12:34)

Comparing UK, Irish & US Food and Culture

12:46–16:37

• Both mock the deplorable state of American sandwich technology and lament missing the UK’s meal deal culture. Chris: "The average British citizen has 70 meal deals a year." (13:27)
  • Discussion of Ireland’s superior ‘chicken fillet roll’ culture and the role of food in national identity.

Adult Autism Diagnosis & Social Fallout

18:01–24:48

• Vittorio shares his late autism diagnosis at 29 and the feeling of being constantly misunderstood socially: Vittorio: "It’s definitely not blissful, it’s unaware...I am constantly so worried that I’ve upset people, but I have no way to tell if that’s the case whatsoever." (19:16)
• Childhood experiences of being an anxious, “strange child” – socially isolated and panicking at school, including an anecdote about punching his principal at age nine.
• Expounds on masking—a core part of his autism—especially as a performer:
  Vittorio: "I think I have like girl autism, which is exciting. I also think it’s like a comedian thing, where I mask professionally." (23:05)
• Nuanced reflection on public disclosure of the diagnosis:
  Vittorio: "Maybe the diagnosis and me being public means that if I do fuck up socially, then people won’t be as upset. Not even for my benefit…please don’t take any of this personally." (24:42)

Social Inclusion, Tourette’s, and Decorum

25:03–29:09

• Both lament the misunderstanding of neurological conditions by the public, referencing the backlash after a man with Tourette’s shouted at the BAFTAs.
• Chris: "We’re okay with disabilities…for young kids...but this one that’s socially difficult...not those ones." (28:14)
• Discuss hypocrisy and selective inclusion in progressive circles.

Navigating Social Landmines & Self-Doubt

29:22–31:58

• Chris describes dreams of accidental social transgression, linking his own anxieties to the kind of social confusion Vittorio experiences.
• Both discuss the challenge of not knowing when or how one has upset someone.

Autism, ADHD, & Diagnoses

32:45–36:28

• Conversation about over-diagnosis in ADHD vs. the “non-lucrative” nature of autism diagnosis.
• Sidebar on Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, brain connective tissue, and hypermobility among autistic people:
  Vittorio: "I am quite hypermobile. My wrist pops out and things dislocate on me all the time." (37:13)

Social Mishaps: The Irish Times & Online Drama

37:58–43:18

• Vittorio recounts an incident where a review misrepresented his comedy as “unapologetically local,” causing online commotion.
• Navigates the responsibility of a public figure when fans send hate to critics.

Comedy in UK vs. US; Roasts & “Cringe Cancellation”

44:58–59:59

• In-depth dissection of the post-Kevin Hart roast fallout in the US versus the relative decorum of British comedy scenes.
• Explains the collaborative rather than combative nature of a roast: Vittorio: "It’s a double act…It’s an ensemble show and you’re trying to perform for other people." (52:39)
• "Cringe cancellation" defined:
  Chris: "I want you to make this person’s brand equity so toxic to be associated with...that they become cringe canceled." (54:45)
• Referencing viral clips, memes, and how internet backlash can “uncool” personalities.

Ambition, Confidence, and the “Tall Poppy Syndrome”

68:38–78:25

• Vittorio details internal struggles with self-promotion and pride, especially following industry whispers after Edinburgh Fringe festival success.
  Vittorio: "I tried to put a lid on a bit of the self-promotion, a bit of the bravado…but from doing that show and touring that show, [I’m] building that part of myself back up and being slightly less ashamed." (70:10)
• They both reflect on the British and Irish tendency to downplay ambition: Chris: "If you really aggressively downplay what you’ve got going on, a lot of people find you more likable. It’s kind of performative humility." (74:00)
• Referencing Coach Carter, Vittorio champions the “shine your light” mentality over social meekness.

Authenticity, Male Vulnerability, and Podcasts as Connection

84:33–93:44

• Discussion of “prefabricated” social interactions as a coping strategy for autism.
• Both ponder the appeal of male-hosted funny podcasts to female audiences, pointing to a lack of “silly, fun chat” among women’s groups in contrast. Vittorio: "Guys talking shit in a playful, silly, fun way...[is] a service that isn’t as readily available to women." (91:17)
• Chris addresses accusations of being "the gateway drug to the manosphere" and the challenge of being ideologically pigeonholed online.
  Chris: "I’m getting ideologically spit-roasted." (96:19)
• Both agree that positive male influence and vulnerability are needed as counters to toxic cultures.

Community, Culture, & The Value of “Real Life”

107:45–109:31

• Discuss the deep-rootedness of Irish/NI family feuds and community compared to cosmopolitan city life.
• Vittorio illustrates neighborhood connection via stories of North London community and caring for neighbors.

Italian Family Customs & Childhood Fears

109:31–112:09

• Details eccentric Italian Christmas traditions (La Befana), contrasting with British norms.
• Childhood phobias, and reflection on sensitivity to odd social environments.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On masking and autism:
  "It’s definitely not blissful, it’s unaware...I am constantly so worried that I’ve upset people, but I have no way to tell if that’s the case whatsoever." — Vittorio (19:16)
• On British humility:
  "If you really aggressively downplay…if you don’t talk about your ambitions, I think...a lot of people find you more likable…performative humility." — Chris (74:00)
• On chronic self-doubt versus achievement:
  "You cannot believe in yourself and still make it…That is also a path…more people [in the UK] have been held back by a lack of confidence than a lack of competence." — Chris (81:39)
• On the problem with American comedy "edginess":
  "If you have a joke that doesn’t work, if you just stick a slur at the end, people will clap because they think you’re like, fighting this good fight." — Vittorio (61:34)
• On audience responsibilities:
  "I don’t know how much responsibility I need to take for my audience. But...that wasn’t my intention." — Vittorio (42:06)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:29 Early self-help influences & Jordan Peterson
• 01:29–11:00 Nashville poisoning incident & American healthcare woes
• 12:46–16:37 UK vs US food/culture, Meal deals, Irish sandwiches
• 18:01–24:48 Autism diagnosis journey & masking as a performer
• 25:03–29:09 Public misunderstanding of disabilities, Tourette’s at BAFTAs
• 29:22–31:58 Navigating invisible social lines
• 32:45–36:28 Diagnostic umbrella: Autism & ADHD
• 37:58–43:18 Online drama, Irish Times review, and digital reputations
• 44:58–53:30 UK vs US comedy scenes, roasts, and “cringe cancellation”
• 68:38–78:25 Comedy pride, self-promotion, and tall poppy syndrome
• 84:33–93:44 Prefabricated conversation, guiding young men, and podcasting as safe camaraderie
• 107:45–109:31 Irish family ties, urban community-building
• 109:31–112:09 Italian Christmas customs, childhood fears

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

Frank, thoughtful, self-deprecating and warm: the discussion mixes playful banter with sharply observed commentary on social anxiety, neurodiversity, ambition, and the complexities of contemporary masculinity. If you’re interested in mental health, the realities behind success in creative careers, and the current state of online cultural discourse, this episode delivers both laughs and valuable self-reflection.

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Where to Find Vittorio Angelone

• Instagram: @vittorioangelone
• Standup Specials: Search YouTube for his two free specials.
• Podcast: Mike and Vittorio’s Guide to Parenting (spoiler: not actually about parenting!)

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“I don’t know, it’s funny like...you maybe, you sit in a very interesting place...I think you managed to sort of, I don’t know, have unkind views, you’re like the narrowest end of the wedge.”
— Vittorio Angelone to Chris Williamson (94:36)

Transcript

[Chris Williamson]

Maybe you are quite. Peterson pilled cleaning your room.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Listen, I read the 12 rules for life book and I found it helpful.

[Chris Williamson]

Did you really?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

When I was like, 22 and I'm so.

[Chris Williamson]

Are you an ex, Jordan Peterson?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm so embarrassed. I'm so, like, spiritually, like, I don't know, something about me and my audience would hate the fact that I really found Jordan Peterson very helpful and made my girlfriend watch it when I was 22. Be like, look at this guy. Kathy Newman's an idiot, isn't she? It's terrible. I'm so embarrassed by all of that. But, like, he was like, helpful and informative. And I think it was like, so it was self help, really, that, like, 12 rules for life book. And I needed that. I needed someone to go, fucking, come on, man, grow. Grow up. Get your shit together.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you think that your audience would guess that you were a previous Jordan Peterson? Stan?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Some of them, Some of them I think won't be or like, wouldn't be like, happy or like, maybe they'd be surprised. But I think that's where I like to like, I try to be honest about that stuff and I like, I would like, I would like to hear someone be like, oh, yeah, I found that helpful. And then it went a bit crazy, you know? So I tried to be like, open about that. I was like a. I'm still a dumb idiot guy. This is the problem. I write like, like narrative, thoughtful, thematic standoff shows. But I'm a fucking idiot. Like, you know what I mean? So it's hard.

[Chris Williamson]

You got spiked.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I got spiked in Nashville. Listen, Allegedly. I don't know, they were like, we could do a toxicology report on you, but it costs like X thousand dollars. And I was like, just gimme whatever stops me vomiting right now and I'll be okay. But I thought it was like. I thought it was just like a really unjust hangover. I was in Nashville, I did a show. I went for a couple of drinks afterwards and a game of pool and I was like, yeah, I had a couple drinks. And then I remember, like, getting back to the. Or like my friend giving me a lift back to the hotel and me being like, I am fucking trolley right now. Like, when did that happen? And then started playing him, like, Mongolian throat singing on Spotify, which was like that. I mean, I don't know if that's a symptom of being spiked by a Mongolian. Yeah, maybe. Maybe a Mongolian spiked me. But then I don't remember lots of patches of the evening and I Don't remember getting into the hotel room and, like, going to bed or whatever. And when I woke up, my phone was, like, in the bathroom, not plugged in. And, like, all my shit was, like, all over the hotel room. And I woke up and I just thought it was like a really. You know when you get a bad hangover, but you don't think you deserve it? You're like, I didn't. Well, I wasn't.

[Chris Williamson]

This is unjust.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Exactly. It was like, this is not karmically balanced right now. So I got up and then I, like, vomited. And I was like, God, that was pretty bad. Did a shit. Also pretty bad. And then I was like, come on, you just gotta get your shit together. Like, I went. I went full Jordan Peters, and I was like, I just gotta tidy my room and I'll be okay. And then I vomited, like, once every 30 minutes for, like, the whole morning until I checked out. And then I checked out of the hotel and. And had to go to the toilet in the lobby and throw up there. And I was like, this is not. This is no hangover I've experienced and I've drank a lot in the past. And so the guy. This guy Ian, who was, like, filming the show and stuff, he was, like, still in town, and he was like, do you want me to take you to, like, an IV clinic? And I was like, this is the most, like, American of all time. Of, like, go to some weird, like, spa where they just hook up in

[Chris Williamson]

a wave sage at you do a sound bowl.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And then they were closed. So we were like, oh, shit. So we went to urgent care, which I don't really know what that is. Like, I don't understand. The American health care system is, like, weird. It's not the emergency room, but it's

[Chris Williamson]

like a step half A and E.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But it's also beside a burger restaurant. Like, this. It's country's fucked. This country's. This is where there should be, like, a barbershop or, like, you know, but there's a healthcare facility. So I walked in, and I think, because I was just being, like, polite to the woman behind the desk, I was like, oh, hi. Blah, blah, blah.

[Chris Williamson]

She thought you were minimizing how serious it was.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

She just thought I was, like, kind of fine. And I, like, signed in and, like, just did, like, persistent vomiting was, like, my symptom on the thing. And then so I was sat there and, like, people kept getting called in before me. And then at one point, I was like, oh, I'm Getting that feeling where I'm going to, like, throw up again. I was, like, texting my mom at the time, and her actual advice was, throw up in the lobby, because then they'll escalate. They'll see you. Which is, like, crazy mum advice of, like, just throw up on the floor.

[Chris Williamson]

Pretty effective.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And I didn't do that. But it was mainly because the bathroom was, like, right beside the reception desk.

[Chris Williamson]

It's pretty egregious if the bathroom is within sight.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Exactly. To just go, bah. Help.

[Chris Williamson]

It was a VIP pass.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. So I went into the bathroom and made a bit of a hullabaloo out of it to the point where I was like, okay, they can definitely hear me.

[Chris Williamson]

Oh, you hammed it up.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I didn't ham it up. I just am a loud vomiter.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. It's a naturally allowed vomiter.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm screaming, really, the whole time.

[Chris Williamson]

I think I'm quite a shy vomiter.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh, really?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. I liked. I don't want to make a fuss. I really don't want to make a fuss.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm making a fuss.

[Chris Williamson]

Are you?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm kicking up a fuss. If I'm throwing up, I'm just. I hate it so much. So I sort of walk out. I'd stick my head out the door, like, finish vomiting. Like, nothing. There's nothing inside me, but it's just like, you know, the horrible yellow, like, bile awful stuff. So I stick my head out and go, oh. I like. I keep vomiting. And they were like. They were like, yeah, we hurt. I was like, I'm really sorry. They were like, someone's coming to see, you know, it's like, okay, good. So I went in and they checked my blood pressure and whatever and did the basics. And they're like, okay, what's happened? I was like, listen, I had a few drinks last night, but this feels crazy. I've thrown up, like, seven times today, and I have nothing left to throw up, but it keeps happening. And then I go, okay. It feels like you probably had something slipped in your drink. It's very common in Nashville in, like, particularly, like, certain areas of Nashville. And I was like, that's a crazy thing to, like, define yourselves by. But, like, apparently it happens, like, all the time. And they were like, were you, like, looking after your drink? And I was like, no, I was farting around. I was just walking around, taking pictures, doing whatever, and my drink was just sat there. And they were like, yeah. And they're like, were you hanging around any, like, weird people? And I was like, no, I sort of knew people and you know, people I'd worked with, and they were like, okay, that's kind of weird. And I was like, oh. And then I did start playing pool and. And then these real sort of like redneck guys challenged. They were like, we'll play you for the table. And I was like, yeah. Cause I'm like quite good at pool. So I just absolutely tore these guys apart. And they got quite like aggro at one point where my body was like, you should kill it on the pool thing.

[Chris Williamson]

You beat them so badly that you nearly started to fight. Well, I just think.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Cause I was like in a fun goofy. Like I just done my show in Nashville. I was having a good. I was like laughing when stuff went in and like, you know, and then this guy came up and was like, you okay? And I was like, yeah. And he was like, all right. Just like this redneck. And I was like, okay, whatever. Blah, blah, blah.

[Chris Williamson]

So I'm not saying they were showboating.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, maybe, right? And I don't. Look, I'm not saying those guys definitely spiked my drink. But if I had the. If I was a batting man, my money's on Jimbo, which was his actual name. Shout out to Jimbo.

[Chris Williamson]

Jimbo and his wife beat him.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Jimbo and his like really frightening looking wife. Actually. She was really. She. From the moment I was like, yeah, let's play for it. She was like really angry about it. I don't know what was going on. So that's the working theory. And I have eaten like one sandwich and three spoons of porridge in the last like day and a half. I could collapse at any moment. But they stabbed. They injected my ass with like an anti vomiting drug. And I was like, this is nice.

[Chris Williamson]

Sick.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

This is nice. $200 as well. They didn't fuck me up. I was expecting like American healthcare to get like re. Like, you know. Cause shitloads and $200 is crazy for like one injection or whatever. But like, certainly. So I stopped vomiting and I made my flight to Austin was delayed by two hours, which I actually think was good. I got. Is this bad? I got assistance through the airport of who? I just like typed in on the app that I needed a wheelchair.

[Chris Williamson]

You got wheeled through the airport? You're kidding me.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I was like, I can't stand. Not for that long.

[Chris Williamson]

You got wheeled through Nashville airport? Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

They don't ask what's wrong. I think I said like ankle injury because I liked it. Like a month ago I was getting wheeled through airports Because I fucked up my ankle. They don't ask. I know this is so bad, like, but is it a life hack? Well, you just click the button.

[Chris Williamson]

You don't need to. What did you click it when you.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I don't think they're allowed to ask. I don't think they're allowed to be

[Chris Williamson]

like, not all disabilities are visible. That kind of thing.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I saw. I'm autistic. Sunflower lanyard. I don't know, it's crazy. And I felt like a little bit bad for the person like pushing me through the airport, but I truly think I would have collapsed if I'd like queued for security and all that shit. Which feels valid. I didn't tell them that I was like, potentially had been poisoned by a redneck and might, you know, because I don't think they would let me on the flight. That's why I said ankle injury in

[Chris Williamson]

case you were infectious or something.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think everywhere or like, I think insurance. I think if they are. If I'd walked in and be like, I think I've been drugged. I don't know with what. I can't stop vomiting. I think they would have been like, well, you might like die on the flight. So like, I think that like airlines,

[Chris Williamson]

their insurance, that's going to be an inconvenience for us.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think that would be a lot of paperwork if I died on the flight. But yeah, got wheeled through. Pretty chill. It's like. It's good actually.

[Chris Williamson]

Sounds like you had a nice time.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I wouldn't say that. While I was in Nashville airport crying on the phone to my mom because I kept shaking. I spent too much time practicing poo.

[Chris Williamson]

I've been cursed with my ability to beat a redneck.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm Icarus of the pool world.

[Chris Williamson]

You flew too close to the black.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That sounds crazy. That's what Jimbo said to me. Yeah. So that's crazy. So I'm now I'm in. We're in Austin. It's my first North American tour. I'm in the States for the whole month. And the whole thing was like, all right. It's pretty like, you know, in the States, pretty much by myself for the whole month. This is like stressful. But I'm going to be on top of it and I am now not going to drink for the rest of the month.

[Chris Williamson]

Have you been on top of it up until getting poisoned?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I had a crazy one. And this is going to become a standup routine. But like, no. The problem with the sign up routine at the minute is Nobody believes that it happened. Went to LA first. That was good fun. A terrible city. It's not really a city, it's not a place. It's just roads. It's roads with occasional things like, I know that is what a city is, but it's not. It's got nothing tying it together. And then went to New York and my girlfriend came, met me in New York and we were like, let's do some like, you know, touristy things. Let's get a bagel, let's do whatever. And so it was the day after I landed in the New York. We were walking around, we got a bagel and then we went to the 911 memorial and we were like, it was just nearby. And we were like, that's pretty. Like, you know, important to see. And I. This is the bit that people don't believe in audiences. I, I myself at the 911 memories, I turned to my girlfriend and was like, oh no. And she was like, yeah, it's so sad. And I was like, I've shit my pants. I've shit my full pants. It was like a short. It was like pretty small, but not great.

[Chris Williamson]

So this trip so far has actually been defined by your bowels.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I don't think food in this country is good for you.

[Chris Williamson]

It's not food.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's not food.

[Chris Williamson]

It's not really food.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I tried to get like a super plain sandwich at the airport in Nashville and it's like, this bread isn't bread. This turkey isn't turkey. None of this is food.

[Chris Williamson]

No, that's something, that's something that American people I think are missing out on. Advanced country, military technology, AI, all this stuff, sandwich technology just has not crossed over from the UK when you think about. They don't understand what the meal deal is.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh, it's a gorgeous institution, dude.

[Chris Williamson]

You know, I found this out because Nutonix and the Sainsbury's meal deal now, so.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Congratulations.

[Chris Williamson]

Thank you very much. It's a bit, that's kind of a little bit like being knighted. It's like it's getting an OB or an MBE or something. It's not quite a knighthood yet anyway. The average British citizen has 70 meal deals a year.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's. That is low. Is in my opinion. That is low.

[Chris Williamson]

I know, but that's the average.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's right.

[Chris Williamson]

There's going to be some people from home that you're never going to see a meal deal or whatever. But the fact that you can't get. I don't even know how to describe the Institution, this almost quasi religion that is the meal deal in the UK,

[Vittorio Angeloni]

to Americans, £3.50 used to be £3.00, and you get like. So it's a main, A side and a drink. But those categories are, like, slightly. I think Bartlett's got his Huel in the main section somehow.

[Chris Williamson]

So you can get two drinks.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, Bartlett would of course argue that it's not a drink, it's a meal, but, you know, does have lead in it, so that's fine. So you can get like, mostly sandwiches,

[Chris Williamson]

wraps, like sushi if you're a fancy one, salads.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But it's just pasta.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, correct.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

There's no vegetables in it. It's pasta, mayonnaise, chicken and bacon. And they call it a chicken and bacon pasta salad.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. With no salad in, no vegetables at all. It's the sandwiches. There's a big difference.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The sandwich is a big difference.

[Chris Williamson]

Where you've got bread that's made from bread and you've got, you know, two cut diagonally as well. And I think when it comes to sandwiches, the increase in the tastiness of a sandwich by cutting it corner to corner. Wow. Instant. What, 15% maybe improvement in the taste of the sandwich, I think.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But what is the possible rationale for that?

[Chris Williamson]

It's the mechanism that it's working on, is that what you're saying?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I completely agree, but I don't understand.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm going to give you pizza, toast, Right. But well buttered warm toast, done nicely. Sort of a 6 out of 10 to 6 and a half out of 10 toastiness there it is, just normal piece. And you're like, that was nice. It was a nice piece of toast. And now I cut it like that and give it to you. That's a treat. That's a real treat.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Somebody's looking after you. It's the attention to detail. I think it's more difficult to cut something diagonally than it is to do that, even though it's definitely like a machine that does that.

[Chris Williamson]

But even still, superior sandwich technology.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But then Ireland is a step above the UK for sandwiches because every shop has a deli counter where they will make you a sandwich.

[Chris Williamson]

Make you a sandwich in front of you.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I want proper, like, baguette, like proper bread. Chicken fillet roll is like the big thing in Ireland.

[Chris Williamson]

Chicken fillet roll. You mean the fillet of a chicken?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Sure. It's like chicken, like breaded chicken, right?

[Chris Williamson]

Oh, okay.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, in a roll, in like a baguette. And then you can get like anything you want on it and it's like every Sentra, every spa like has a deli counter where they do chicken fillet rolls. It's, it's amazing. And they don't have it.

[Chris Williamson]

Maybe Ireland has superior.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Ireland's top of the sandwich tree, you think? I would say, yeah. I'm sure like Philadelphia would like be annoyed with me about that for their like cheese.

[Chris Williamson]

New York might not be too happy either. But the other thing that I miss is Sorin.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh, that we, I've never had that. I think we have an equivalent in Belfast which is called Veda, which is like a maltloaf. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Unbelievable. But in maltloaf, dude. And again, corner to corner on that. Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution, Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where function comes in. Gives you access to over 160 lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone paddle. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged and you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play creed louder in your car. Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with function, it's $365 a year. That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com ModernWisdom using the code ModernWisdom at checkout. You mentioned before autism, adult autism diagnosis.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Age 29, right? Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

What's changed since that happened? Anything?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I don't know. A lot of people who get the diagnosis are like. And everything suddenly made sense and I could manage my life and I could, you know, get over these obstacles that I'd always struggled with. But I think it's like for me it felt like an extremely gradual process where like there was. It starts with like jokes, like your friends just call you autistic, basically. And then I sort of socially bumped into a lot of people, like in a negative way. Just got some things wrong and to the. But then like I would have an interaction with somebody that I thought was, like, positive. And then I would get, like a big message the next day saying how much I'd, like, insulted them.

[Chris Williamson]

You'd stepped over some social faux pas that you didn't see.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I like, not. I was just like, what a nice chat. And then the next day they're like, you make me feel like shit every time we talk. And those are just the people who are, like, prepared to reach out. Exactly. So I must be doing this all the fucking time.

[Chris Williamson]

You're saying there's a wake of destruction. Wake of autistic destruction.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I mean, there may well be. And I just have no idea.

[Chris Williamson]

Completely oblivious, blissfully unaware.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Completely no idea. It's definitely not blissful, it's unaware. I think this is a misconception about autism, that we're. That it's like, blissful lack of awareness

[Chris Williamson]

of how it's floating through life.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's that I am constantly so worried that I've upset people, but I have no way to tell if that's the case whatsoever. So you're just like swinging punches with a blindfold on, going, like, apologizing when you didn't need to apologize and like,

[Chris Williamson]

patting yourself, oh, you're missing the mark on both sides.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm fucking it. I'm fucking it in both directions. I'm apologizing when I had no need to apologize. I'm patting myself on the back when I've ruined somebody's day. And that I sort of. That made me reach out to a medical professional and go, hey, there's something. There's something going on here. Also. I was like a very strange child. I was very anxious. I, like, had loads of panic attacks when I was like 9, 10, 11 years old. Ran away from school and tried to run home and was like, just couldn't. Had to do lessons in a different roomed. Everybody else just do worksheets by myself. Had to go in through a different entry to primary school, like, different door, because I just couldn't deal with, like, the crowds of people and all this stuff. I punched my primary school principal because I was trying to run away and she. And she was trying to stop me running away.

[Chris Williamson]

How old were you?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Nine.

[Chris Williamson]

At what point does a punch become a punch?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, at what age? Yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's like a puppy, like. Like biting your ankle or whatever. It's like, oh, that's cute. Up until the point.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. And then it's actually assault.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I would say, like, probably the Cutoff is like 10 or 11.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, you just nipped in. Yeah, just before. You're like inverse Russell Brand.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But then, like, full. Can we dig into that? Can we pick that apart? I'm inverse Russell Brand.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Because Russell flew very close to the sun, but on the legal side.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And you turn on.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, true, true, true.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Uh, okay. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

You know what I mean? So you. There was an age cutoff that was about to happen and you got in just before it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yes.

[Chris Williamson]

And there was an age cutoff that was about to happen and Russell got in just after it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Okay.

[Chris Williamson]

Inverse Russell Brand.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So I was like, barely legal.

[Chris Williamson]

It's a barely legal punch.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah, that was me.

[Chris Williamson]

That's what you are.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So there was all that, and it all sort of added up to me reaching out to a doctor just like my local GP in London. And they were like, yeah, this sounds like, worth investigating. Let's do, like, a phone call. And I had a phone call with, like, the specialist on the nhs and they're like, great, we'll add you to the list, the waiting list for the assessment. I was like, okay, how long does that normally take? And they were like, four years. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I sort of had a bit about it in my last tour show. And as I was going around and touring, I discovered, along with my audience, that I had a lot of autistic people attending my shows and a lot of autism practitioners attending my shows. So I got five offers across the tour of people to do the assessment for free privately. Because they were just at the show and they were like, oh, that's my job. And I can just, you know, rather than it costing, like, two grand to do it, I'll just do it for you. So I did the one that was closest to London, went through the whole process. You have like, four or five different appointments. You have to fill out forms. My girlfriend and my mom had to fill out form.

[Chris Williamson]

Character reference.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, just like, from your perspective, what does this look like? From your perspective, what does this look like? And then from, like, my own perspective, what does that look like? And it came back and they were like, you're, like, a little bit raised in lots of these things, like the traits, but then, like, incredibly high on masking. So basically pretending you don't have autism, which basically sort of explains why these aren't as raised as you even managed

[Chris Williamson]

to mask the test.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I mean, basically. And apparently this is like. It's a similar reason why, like, women, it's much harder to diagnose autism because they're much more concerned with, like, the Group dynamics. So they're much more adept at masking and they're told to mask a bit more or expected to mask a bit more societally. So I think I have like girl autism, which is like, quite exciting. I also think it's like a comedian thing where I mask professionally. Like, the job is say something you said a million times as if it's the first time you said it. But that's also like being autistic in the world is like, somebody asked me this question. I know what I'm going to say because I'm not conversing intuitively. I'm doing a little script that I'm following that I've learned is how people like to be interacted with. So I've like, that's what stand up is. So I think I'm like just a touring masker, which is quite. I think that's why the mask.

[Chris Williamson]

But a global massacre as well across the rest of your life.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, I think so. And then that's a weird feeling to sort of like, what does it mean to unmask? Like, I don't want to be rude to people. I think some people get diagnosed and then decide that they can just like freewheel an asshole. Be a dickhead.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And I don't want to do that. But I do hope that, like, maybe the diagnosis and me being like public about the diagnosis means that if I do fuck up socially, then people, like, won't be as upset. Not even for my benefit.

[Chris Williamson]

I've got this autism card here. Not even. You're not allowed to be mean to

[Vittorio Angeloni]

me, but not even for me. I'm just like, please don't take any of this personally.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm trying.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I won't have meant that, like, you know, because I, I hate upsetting people. Like, it's my least favorite thing.

[Chris Williamson]

It is an interesting point. At what point are you culpable for your actions? You have to be like that guy that had Tourette's. Was it the BAFTAs?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, fuck everybody that was mean to him. Every single person that was mean to him about that. I, like, I was so angry about that whole scenario. I didn't think I was a particularly well versed person on like Tourette's, but apparently no one in America has ever done even the most bass, like tertiary research, like any awareness of what it is whatsoever.

[Chris Williamson]

And we've known about it in the uk. I, I don't ever remember a time of not knowing about Tourette's. Like, even when I was a kid.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think Reggie Yates did A documentary called Super Tourette's.

[Chris Williamson]

Is that. Is that.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's an actual medical term? Super Tourette's.

[Chris Williamson]

And what's that?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So their ticks, like, their physical tics are so intense that they, like, fall down. And it's, like, funny and obviously, like, devastating and debilitating for them. But, like, I think they should have come up with a different name.

[Chris Williamson]

It sounds desirable.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Super Tourette's.

[Chris Williamson]

It sounds like what you get if you upgrade. If you press the upgrade button when you're adding to the cart. Yeah, it is. It's the value meal. It's the Happy Meal equivalent.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And you want to drink with that. Super size.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Super sized. Yeah. Super size Tourette's.

[Chris Williamson]

Super sized Tourette's.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And then so all these Hollywood actors coming out and being like. I think he meant that. Why was that word in his brain? And I'm like, cause it's the worst thing you could say in that moment. And that's. That's the condition.

[Chris Williamson]

Wasn't that same guy, while on the documentary when his dog was about to cross the road, was said to his dog, like, cross the road? Nope. And then his fight. Not even his interactions with his favorite animal.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Like, he's. There's no. I mean, Lewis Capaldi, like, the pressure of his second album. I don't know whether he gave him Tourette's, but it sort of caused it to emerge.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I think, like, it can stress and stuff. And like, being at the BAFTAs, as a guy who's like a school caretaker, like, janitor, I hated everybody going, oh, these poor actors on stage. It's like, who would you rather be? Hollywood elite millionaire on stage having a not nice word. Yeah, A not nice word shouted at you. Or like, working class guy who's just gonna go back to, like, mopping floors when he leaves the BAFTAs, who has, like, struggled with a debilitating neurological condition

[Chris Williamson]

for his whole life, and now on the biggest stage he's ever had, has displayed it to the entire world.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And also in a room of people at the baftas, they're all supposed to be members of the Academy and they're all supposed to have watched all the films, so they should all have seen the film about the guy who shouts inappropriate things. And they were all like, what is going on? Do your job. Watch the thing for the award you're going to. And if you don't understand something, I just. He was getting death threats online, and at no point did anyone from, like, the Jamie Foxx side of things who, like, called him racist and all that stuff come out and go, oh, hey. Like, it should have been edited out because that's a very embarrassing moment for those guys on stage. But, like, it's not this guy's fault. The guy's like, got a disability. So I fucking. I've been angry about that, though, since it happened, basically.

[Chris Williamson]

It's pretty mean to see unfold. Weird, isn't it? Sort of social decorums. So saying the right things, behaving in the right way, in the right spaces is so highly sought after. And that kind of deviation from that behavior. We're okay with disabilities for people, for, like, young kids that need help in very obvious ways. But this one that's socially difficult to deal with, autism is another one. Or people that have got OCD and maybe unable to operate in the world in a way that's convenient for everybody else. It's like, I don't have to. Not those ones.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The difficult conversations of where accessibility meets inclusivity meets him. Like, he should be like. There was people coming out saying he shouldn't have been at the awards thing. And I'm like, what are we doing here? Like, you're supposed to be the kind of progressive welcoming.

[Chris Williamson]

You see, you're telling me that if there was a person in a wheelchair and there was no ramp, that they shouldn't have been there.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Fuck them, army, crawl your way onto the stage. If a person in a wheelchair had won an award and everyone went, ah, it's too much faf.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just throw someone. Just launch them up. Yeah, exactly. Shot putt them. Have you got any shot putters that have come this evening? Shot put that person up there. And what's interesting was listening to you tell your story about what childhood was like for you. And some of those scripts, certainly for me, reflecting on my childhood, one of my most common recurring uncomfortable dreams is me doing something to another person that I thought was just a bit of fun or I thought was a normal interaction. To then find out that I've crossed some invisible line that I didn't know existed and to then immediately feel horrendous about it. The last one of these I had was about two weeks ago or so, and it was Yasmin who does the guest booking that got you here. We were walking down the street and I had a Gatorade bottle like that that had water in, and I thought we were just playing about, and I sort of splashed some water at her. And that turned out to be this huge faux pas that I'd Done. And immediately I felt terrible. And then I woke up and I was all. I was all anxious and I just woke up and that was it. And that is a consistent theme not only in my life, but also in the dreams that I've had for that is the. If you were to pick the center of the bullseye of my awkwardness, in reality, it's me doing a thing and someone being mad at me without me realizing that I'd done it and then finding out importantly, because occasionally you do

[Vittorio Angeloni]

something in your life, whether it's in work or relationships where you go, look, this might upset this person, but I'm going in with my eyes open and I like still think this is the right thing to do, even though it's going to be uncomfortable or upset them and that's one thing. But then just being so blindsided by it. What do you think? Are you interested in the past? Do you think you might have autism? I don't want to be one of these autism.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm not gonna wear your culture as my costume.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No. But go enough autistic people that go around diagnosing everyone else. But like, I like, what would you.

[Chris Williamson]

I have no idea. I have absolutely no idea. There's certainly some trait. I mean, again, pathologizing anything, everything is just some, some form of a spectrum, right? And at some point you breach the threshold for it to be said and now you are depressed and now you are anxious and now you are Asperger's and now da, da, da. But I've always made this joke, which is maybe a self protection thing. I don't know the difference between being an only child and being autistic.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You're just an unsocialized boy.

[Chris Williamson]

Bingo.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So, but then weren't introduced to other dogs when you were young?

[Chris Williamson]

Or maybe that ramps up your predisposition a little bit because there's all of the memes around. Well, you know, people that have got autism can't hold eye contact. People that have got autism are unable to operate socially. They need to do stimming. They need to da da, da, da, da da. And then you realize actually there's an infinity number of ways that it can show up. But then also people's desire to have some form of mental pathology so that they can have a thing. I think autism is, it is sort of the sexy new. If you're going to have a mental malady, it's one of the ones that people kind of typically are like, okay, it's like, I'm just autistic. Like, you Know, it's a word that gets thrown around an awful lot.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And that's difficult. I think it. There's a great book, there's two great books by comedians about adult autism diagnosis. There's Fern Brady, strong female character. And there's Pierre Navelli. Why can't I just enjoy things? And the real sort of like shot chaser, like Fearne, just like mad. And Pierre's is like. And here's why I think. But it's really, really interesting. And Pierre talks about a couple things in that where he says like the, the terminology like of the word like autism will probably become like defunct reasonably soon because it's a really big umbrella term. Like a really big umbrella term. And a helpful thing was the Asperger's category. But you're not supposed to say that anymore because he was a Nazi. Who was Asperger.

[Chris Williamson]

He was the guy that discovered it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Invented it. I don't know what the word is. But discovered or like categorized it as a thing. He was like a Nazi. So it's not named after him anymore. So the appropriate term now is like autism level one, which is what I have, which is Asperger's or Asperger's was okay. And then autism level two and the three levels.

[Chris Williamson]

So you're actually a Nazi in this regard?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I am a Nazi. That's. I think that's what it means.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But in this regard, in loads of regards, the. And then the level two and then level three and it's basically like how much help do you need to exist in like normal, neurotypical life? So like level one is like you don't need any outside assistance to like go through your life. Like you can cope with the world. And then level two is like you might need some help like or like, you know, care or whatever. And then level three is like you can't exist in the world. You're basically full time care, all that stuff and like, you know, like to have me. And then somebody who's non verbal and hits himself in the head and like cuts their arms by like scratching so repeatedly. Like it's sort of crazy that we've got the same diagnosis. And I get that like, look, there's people with cancer and then there's people with cancer. You know, it's like stage one, stage two, stage three, stage four. It's a similar thing. I guess the autism doesn't develop hopefully. Hopefully in that direction. But I do think it feels strange what I like about it versus. So I got diagnosed with adhd. As well. I just.

[Chris Williamson]

Oh, a real one, two punch.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I think it was like, buy one, get one free or something, package deal. Yeah. And they. I don't, like, care about that one really as much, partly because I think it might be over diagnosed or I would worry that it's over diagnosed because there's medication for it. So what's nice about autism is there's no, like, big pharma money that you can follow to go, well, they would be motivated to diagnose lots of people with autism because then they could sell these drugs or whatever, whereas with ADHD they are motivated to diagnose lots of people with ADHD because there is medication for it. So that's why I think the autism one feels a little bit.

[Chris Williamson]

You have been spending a good bit of time in America. The big pharma conspiracies are already running rampant.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, well, the thing is, like, the NHS is like an amazing thing that is like, being a bit fucked over, but the big pharma still gets their sort of clause in because they're just selling it to the NHS rather than, you know, you're sort of.

[Chris Williamson]

Whether the money comes direct from you or comes from you through your taxes, through the NHS and back out, there's

[Vittorio Angeloni]

still money sort of at the end of it. So I would worry about that a little bit with the ADHD diagnosis and I haven't tried the medication for adhd.

[Chris Williamson]

What is it?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's like speed.

[Chris Williamson]

That's good.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, it's like that. Yeah, it's like Ritalin. But apparently, like, if you have adhd, you like it, doesn't it? Like, just, you can do your taxes.

[Chris Williamson]

That's a real. That's a real, like, litmus test. That feels like it should be how you should do it. Yeah, you should say, okay, take this. And then just see if this person starts bouncing off the walls or if they do sit down and read.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I also read an interesting thing, and I don't know if this is even nearly scientifically true, but there's a massive comorbidity with autism and a thing called Ehlers Danlos syndrome, which is like hypermobility and the soft tissue in your bones and joints. And I am quite hypermobile. My wrist pops out and things dislocate on me all the time.

[Chris Williamson]

As someone that plays a bit of sport. Great, yeah. Wonderful.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Terrible nightmare. But. So, yeah, that. But then some people have said, well, what if, like, they are. They're not, like, happening at the same time sort of by chance or whatever. It's just the Same thing as in like the soft tissue in your bones and joints. It's also affecting.

[Chris Williamson]

You've got. You've got bone autism.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, but it's affecting the soft tissue in your brain because there's different types of tissue in your brain and the connective stuff between all the beds.

[Chris Williamson]

So you've got brain. Ellis Dandruff, Hypermobile brain.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Although hypermobile doesn't feel like a good word for how autistic people's brains work. They're not exactly flexible.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. What happened with this Irish Times article thing?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh, that was interesting. I feel a little bit bad about that. I've spoken to the lady who wrote the article and I had spoken to her before she wrote the article. So to fill people in, like I. There was a write up about a few different things in the Irish Times, like me, Sally Rooney and nicap, just the big three. And, and it. Within it, there was sort of like a couple paragraphs of like a review of my show that they'd come and seen and I'd like spoken to her on the phone about it and she'd written like really interesting articles about like Ireland has an incredibly high GDP and is a very wealthy country, but the public services, like our dog, like public transport's really bad. There's no National Health Service. There's like this, that and the other, like. Whereas we have the whole point of this like letting all these corporations come into Dublin and have their offices there, is that you do make some money off them and then that goes into

[Chris Williamson]

like life benefit from that. North of the border.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No. Right, no, but like the whole.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And I think she's really interesting, I think she's really clever. But when she wrote about my show, she said that like it was unapologetically local and like if you don't get the references, that's your problem. And she like quoted another review that gave me two stars at the fringe of someone who clearly just like didn't get the show at all. Which is one of my favorite reviews, actually the two star one. It really made me laugh quite a lot. But I just like she'd phrased it in a way that I was like, oh, that's a bit annoying. Like this is quite a big like newspaper and if I were someone that didn't know who Vittorio Manzalone was and I read that, I would think that's just like, it's a bit of a stereotype of Northern Irish comedians that we just do the, you know, it's funny

[Chris Williamson]

because it's local thing of Going and also it's inaccessible. Which means if I was maybe thinking that I was going to buy a ticket, I'm like, well, I don't speak Belfast.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. So it's just like, whereas in the show, like that was the point I made when I did like a post about it on Instagram being like, I, you know, wrote this show in London, trialed it all around England, did it at the Edinburgh fringe, did it in New York, I've now done it in America. And in the article she said like, I refuse to explain myself but I like truly don't like, I do loads of expositioning. And that's like the fun of the show is like going, hey, this place I'm from is a bit fucked up. Here's why, here's this, here's that, here's this weird quirk about it and like opening it out to the is like sort of half of the point of the show that I've written. And I was just like a little bit annoyed. So I just was like, oh, you know, I'll just post a little thing on Instagram. And this has happened a couple times recently. And this is like, I think this don't know if this is an autism thing but like maybe where I just think I'm like having a little bit of fun or like just informing people of something. Like my run of shows in Belfast one of the nights, like 20 people arrived 30 minutes late and I like asked the audience, I was like, oh, is it unclear on the website what time this starts? And they were like, yeah, kind of. So in the interval I just went on Instagram and did like a black square, white text and was like, oh, 20 people just arrived half an hour late for my show. For the rest of this week. Doors are at this time. Shows it this time. Except for the matinees. Doors are at this time, show this time. Thanks. And it's gotten like more views than most of my stand up clips, I think because people think I'm being like tatty really fucking rude or whatever. But it was just like, here are the facts of the situation and here's how I can help. And then I think with the Irish Times, I was like just trying to do a little. I didn't like the way this person phrased themselves about my show. And then it like just blew up in like a kind of mad way where it has like 40,000 likes or something. And then some people going, I think you've misread the article. And I. But I agree she was trying to compliment me. In the article. But I just. I don't think it came across in a way that was, like, nice. So I tried to do a little post about it, and then she reached out and was like, oh, I think you've kind of taken me out of context. And I was like, you and me both, sister. Like, you know, we're kind of. It was a funny phone call. She was like, are you gonna apologize? And I was like, are you? Like, we both pissed each other off.

[Chris Williamson]

Fucking standing armies here.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

We're both probably in the wrong a little bit.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And didn't phrase ourselves perfectly. And I maybe shouldn't have put her, like, in the screenshot. I kept her name and, like, the article, But I'm also like, your name's in the newspaper beside where the article is. Like, it's not like, it's hard to find out who wrote the article, but then the problem with the Internet is it's just full of cops, isn't it? So, like, people sent her, like, horrible messages on Instagram and stuff. And I was like, I. Like, I don't know how much responsibility I need to take for my audience. But, like, I'm sorry that that happened. That wasn't my intention. And, like, you know, we're, like, friendly enough now and just have a sort of agree to disagree thing on that in that I think she didn't freeze herself well, she thinks I didn't raise myself well. And, like, I don't know. Like, it's very easy as a comedian to do this whole, like, everybody, I don't care. And if somebody has to go at me, whoa, I'm just a comedian or whatever. Like, But I don't. Like, that's not how I like to exist in the world. Like, I upset somebody, so I reach out to them and had a phone call and was like, hey, let's talk this. We might not agree at the end of the conversation, but have a half apology each. Yeah. If even. I don't think either of us really apologized, but it was just like, okay, I sort of understand where you're coming from. You sort of understand where I'm coming from. It's nice.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Vittorio Angeloni]

three pillars of the UK correct.

[Chris Williamson]

Jaffa Cakes in Betweeners and Wayne Lineker.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Wow.

[Chris Williamson]

This is true. But I was thinking, cause you guys did a roast recently, maybe not, you know, not Netflix and Kevin Hart or whatever but. And then what's happening with whatever we want to call it, like British comedy now it seems like the new. What I'm seeing is a new sort of half generation that's stepping through which have been mostly borne out by the Internet. Although everyone's done a million years of standard, I'm aware that everyone's driven to like Woking and Shithouse.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Went to PC Express.

[Chris Williamson]

Exactly like done all of those things. Like they've done that for a long time time. And now they've just burst on the Internet, but from getting public awareness, people are just starting to break through. And that's really cool. And it feels like there's this next sort of wave that's on its way, which is really exciting. But to see the number of different factions and maybe this is just because America's such a big country and so many people hate each other and it's very contentious, but. But it's like an earthquake occurs, this big thing happens, and then there's all of these aftershocks that go on afterward. So then Chelsea Handler's gonna go on Don Lemon's podcast and she's gonna talk about this, and then Shane's gonna talk to Matt and they're gonna say this thing. And then Tony, I don't know whether he's piped up yet, but he's gonna. And everyone's waiting. It's almost. Do you know what it is? It's almost like someone's had a boxing fight. And then you're waiting for the post fight press conference.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And you're waiting to hear, well, you know, I just wasn't on form this evening. The training camp was great, but tonight I. The bed or he missed weight. I can't believe we've had to pay the purse. Like, then we need to run it back at a PA PA pa And I don't. I haven't seen that level of cattiness in the uk. I don't know whether it's not big enough for the factions to go, whether I'm just not paying enough attention, whether there's not a large enough pie for everybody to be worried about that you all need to keep in good friends because the likelihood of you bumping into someone is probably higher than it is in the US there's this enforcement mechanism of I just don't want to have to face. I don't have to bump into you and feel like you've got this unsaid stuff like you and this journalist lady. Maybe. Or maybe there's more decorum, more politeness. I don't know. I just. I was thinking about it because a few clips popped up of your guys roast from a little while ago and then the Kevin Hart one. And I was comparing the two and I thought it was kind of interesting about how. Yeah. The difference in the post fight press conference.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, I think like the roast thing is such a big, like it's been in American culture for a long time. Like the Don Reckles stuff, it's much older in this country than it is in the uk culturally. Whereas, because, like, we've, like, you could very easily. I don't know if you would do it, but like, you could do like a roast of Jimmy Carr, like in the UK on Netflix. But like, you know whether that would cut through in the UK or what that was. And you know, that was the have a Word podcast. Did that roast that we did in the uk and I think, like, it didn't. It's sort of people who've been on their podcast and we all have our own followings and like, and it was also just on their patreon and clips are just going out as like, clips. But like, I don't know, the rose things. Fun. I think it's become like reaction has become such a big part of culture, maybe particularly in America, where it's like this person reacts to this thing. It's half of YouTube is videos that

[Chris Williamson]

have gone viral, derivative.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And then people just watching those videos. Did it start with Two Girls One cup? Maybe? It might have.

[Chris Williamson]

That was patient zero of reaction. Patient double zero.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Because, like, there's more videos of people watching Two Girls One cup than obviously the one video that is Two Girls One cup. You know what I mean? Like, there's all these people being like, oh, that's fucking disgusting. And I think, like, I don't know, I thought a lot of that roast stuff was like, they're all funny jokes. I saw all the, like, lots of the jokes at the Comedy Store the week of because everybody was like practicing their jokes. I was at that crazy night at the Comedy Store where Chappelle showed up and then brought on Gillis and then brought on Louis CK and then brought on Chris Rock and then brought on Kanye West.

[Chris Williamson]

Kanye west was at the Comedy Store.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So it was the day after I landed in la. I went to the. I didn't have anything to do on the Sunday night, like the day before the Netflix is a joke festival started. And I was like, I'll just go watch like the open mic at the Comedy Store to like. I like to do that when I arrive in a place I've never been before. Like, see some like really bad stand up comedy to, like picked a great night. Well, I do, but because the problem with the Comedy Store is the open mic becomes the proper show. And I just as like a confidence boost, wanted to be like, let's fucking watch some shit, people. And to be fair, they were shit. And we sort of enjoyed it. And I'd been there for like maybe an hour when the proper show started and then they started Bringing on people. But the problem is, I arrived and was like. Tried to do, like, I don't want to be like again, I think didn't know what the social norm was, but walked up to the dorm, was like, oh, hi. I'm a comedian in town for the Netflix festival, and I was just hoping to watch the show. And they were like, yes, $20. And I was like, okay, that's like, fine, whatever. Give them 20. I was like, I don't think, okay, that's fine. Give them $20. And then they're like, okay, put your phone in this little bag. Then they walk me through and sit me in the front row. And I'm like, this is. This is silly that I'm here. But, like, because I'm not a great laugher, I like a comedy show. I don't know. Like, I'm okay, but, like, not the worst, but I sort of just sit there and, like, quietly enjoy and analyze it because I'm so, like, in the weeds of what it is.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And. But I'm sat at the front in the corner. And, like, nearly every comedian on, like, the main show referenced the fact that I wasn't laughing. Like, this guy fucking hates it, not knowing that. Yeah, I was loving it. I was having a good time. Pauly Shore called me gay for his whole set, which was, like, quite fun. Called me Gay Nazi Zach fun. And then. Yeah, and then I noticed the security going around and taking people's Apple watches, even though they'd already got everybody's phones and, like, putting those in pockets. And I was like, oh, somebody. Somebody famous is about to walk on. And that's when they brought Chappelle on, and then he brought on all those people. So I saw a lot of those roasts. And it's so funny. The one that's gotten, like, Gillis in trouble on the Internet or whatever, or the one that tells the handers kicking up a fuss about, like, that's the one when Gillis was on, I was like, oh, I'm not a bad audience member.

[Chris Williamson]

I just have a high bar.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I was just folded in half laughing. It was just unbelievable. And, yeah, the joke about Kevin Hart is so short, they're gonna have to lynch him from a bonsai tree. That's the one I was recounting to People is the best one I'd heard that I was really excited to see on Netflix. And that's the one that everybody's like, I can't believe he fucked me up.

[Chris Williamson]

You don't make jokes about lynching Chelsea Handler said lynching's worse than rape.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Hmm. I mean, I don't know why we're doing a league table.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah,

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think they're.

[Chris Williamson]

It's not a competition.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think they're both bad.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, it's not a competition.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think they're both really bad.

[Chris Williamson]

It's just. It's interesting to see this fallout and to think how these people are on stage to try and achieve the same thing. Like, to have a good time, supposedly to have a good time.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think that's. That's a misunderstanding people have about roasts is some people think it's like a competition and like, somebody wants to win and somebody want.

[Chris Williamson]

Like, it's very American.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. But even roast battles, I'm like, this is a double act. You're like, that's how you should view it. And that's.

[Chris Williamson]

Or a dance partner than a fight.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's an ensemble show and you're trying to perform for other people. You're not trying to just be mean. You're trying to say really funny things about your friends and colleagues and famous people and stuff. And I think, like, yeah, I don't know, like, I try not to get caught up in this. Like, everybody's too offended nowadays. Everybody just has too much of an opinion nowadays. It's like, all right, you didn't like it.

[Chris Williamson]

And an infinite number of opportunities to talk about it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And broadcast it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah. Everyone has their own little platform and

[Chris Williamson]

an incentive to say things.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And it's hard to not like, you know, I'm on a podcast right now. This is a big podcast, and I could give my hot take on the Roast of Kevin Hart and it could be a clip and it could do well and whatever. But, like, I liked it. It was a bit long. Some people didn't do great, but they're actresses, not comedians. So what the fuck do you want?

[Chris Williamson]

There we are. Prep it. That's a nice,

[Vittorio Angeloni]

you know, like, there's

[Chris Williamson]

the most lukewarm take that we can so much.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, so many people going, oh, you should do a post about this. You should do a cat to camera video about this. No, I've written the show that I've spent loads of time on, and that's what I'm.

[Chris Williamson]

You know, there is this. There is definitely a sense that comedians are like ammunition bullets in the chamber of one particular perspective or another. That this thing has happened and we need someone to comment on it. And we know that if we try and get someone who's too serious, it's going to come across as kind of stodgy. And it doesn't really work on the Internet. But we've got this guy and we think that this guy mostly agrees with us.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

So if we can make him aware of this thing, we can kind of point him like a rifle and then you can pull the trigger and he'll do something and that'll take down. I've been kind of obsessed with this idea that I heard this week of a cringe cancellation. So you can cancel somebody because they did something illegal. You can cancel somebody because they said something reprehensible or whatever it is. But there's a much more pernicious type of cancellation, which is, I think, what people are attempting to use comedians for, which is I want you to make this person's brand equity so toxic to be associated with.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Wow.

[Chris Williamson]

That they become cringe canceled.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's probably quite powerful as an idea. I wonder who would I. What's an example of someone who you think has been like cringe cancelled? Somebody made a joke about them that was so funny.

[Chris Williamson]

Shetty and Bartlett got close to it when you and Mike did that clip. That's the canonical example.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Wizards of Nothing.

[Chris Williamson]

That was the one.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's true. That's one of my favorite.

[Chris Williamson]

That went interstellar. But that's the kind of thing that I'm talking about, which is like if. And this. Maybe not even it's done in advance. We're gonna try and say this thing to make it so uncool or whatever. But for the most part, like a lot of criticisms around Russell Brand, this is a two pronged assault. Right. The real cancellation, but also the cringe cancellation which comes in because a lot of the time, if someone's virtue gets chipped away at that opens up the opportunity for. Oh, maybe the momentum's slowing. Which means that we can also get in there and do the cringe thing too. But it's not always prefabricated. I'm not saying that every single time, but that these things can happen by accident or they can be. Someone can try to construct them. But either way, if you make it basically uncool, embarrassing to like to listen to someone that is. You know what the. Remember the R0 number from COVID Like for every person that gets infected, however many more people. So for instance, the Psychology of Money book by Morgan Housel, my friend. For every person that buys the book, another 1.2 people buy the book.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Okay. Wow. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Because they like it so much and it's so widely applicable and managing your Money is such an important thing that the total addressable market is like 8 billion people.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

So they. So every month, I think I'm still right on this. Every month since it launched, like three years ago, it sold more copies.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Which is fucking insane.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, that's.

[Chris Williamson]

That.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's like books. Word of mouth is like the only way to sell books.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, there's. You can put. You can put up a billboard of a book, like, nobody fucking.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't care. But if you say, did you need to read this? Or better, I bought it for you. So there it is. Money.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Right.

[Chris Williamson]

Literally. But if you can do the opposite of that, if you can make the r naught number less.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

That for every person that sees this thing, fewer people want to be associated. You know what I mean? It's this sort of negative.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I listen to Jay Shetty's podcast, so you don't have to.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, I think Brian Callan, good friend, fighter, and the kid that has been on the receiving end of this. That is a real difficult spiral to come. Because how do you reverse engineer someone that's having a. That is saying, this is not something that you should listen to. And because I'm saying that you shouldn't listen to it, fewer people want to listen to it, which means it's very human.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And then if you try to push back against that, it's just more cringe and more cringe and more cringe. It's a horrible sort of spiral to get yourself into. But it's like. I think it's a worry of, like, social isolation, isn't it? Of, like, it's cringe to be into that. It's like, oh, better not.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, it's like that Bill Burr joke about roller skating. You know, he said, like, roller skating was massive until that one homophobic joke in the 90s. And then everybody put the roller skates in the bin, which is. What's the hardest thing about roller skating? Telling your dad you're gay.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. So, yeah, it's like a roller skating cancellation. That's exactly what I mean. Yeah, that's precisely what I mean. But this, it can happen for anything, right? It can happen for bands, it can happen for TV stations, it can happen for whatever.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Overexposure is a big thing, I think, for, like, actors as well, where people are just sick of seeing somebody who

[Chris Williamson]

would be an example of that. I think Nic Cage was probably not far off it at one point, but then actually went through it. So far, he kind of did the full horseshoe that he full Circled and came back out the other side of the cringe thing. The Rock actually got cringe. Canceled without being properly. The Rock is actually the canonical example of this. And then it seems to me like he's trying to do another. He's trying to do a rebrand with being edgy, swearing more. Less family friendly. And the Kevin Hart Roast thing.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Cause that was. That felt like, oh, cat's out of the bag with saying retard. The Rock said it. You know what I mean? Like, the Rock is the Overton Window.

[Chris Williamson]

That is exactly what my friend George said. Precisely. He's like, holy fucking shit. The Rock's there. That is. Yeah. He's as Hollywood as Overton Window as you can get.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I don't know if that's a good

[Chris Williamson]

thing that the Rock is. The Rock is the center of culture.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. That doesn't feel great. That doesn't feel like all of the generally accepted opinions are represented in an enormous sort of freak. Like, he is a freak. You know what I mean? Pisses in bottles on set and stuff, apparently.

[Chris Williamson]

I didn't hear about that.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's interesting, because he's working hard, Chris.

[Chris Williamson]

That's what I need. That's what I need. I need one of those down here to show just how hard I'm working.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

A little catheter.

[Chris Williamson]

That'd be cool. That'd be cool. Yeah. I. I don't know. It's very surprising to think. How far back would you need to go for that roast to not be allowed on the Internet? Three years, four years maybe?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

As in the Netflix roast? Allowed on the Internet.

[Chris Williamson]

Oh, sorry. Allowed.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Allowed on Netflix.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Shows how much I've seen it online.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But then it's just cycles, isn't it? Isn't it just pendulum swinging and maybe like that? You know, if you look at the Don Rickles roasts, I mean, you want to see racist jokes like, talk to

[Chris Williamson]

Don Rickles, But, I mean, you couldn't have put that out in 2020.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. People went a bit mad.

[Chris Williamson]

But when was. At what point would that have been allowed? This year? One year ago? Two years ago? Three years ago? Because it wouldn't have been six years ago.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Pretty recently. It's probably one or two. Really?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And I try not to, like, I don't know, pay much heed to that stuff. Like, what is allowed, what isn't allowed?

[Chris Williamson]

Is that because you're purposefully not trying to be an edgelord?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, well, I'm personally trying not to come across as an edgelord. I'm not saying Things because they're edgy. Aside from the fact that you have to say things that create tension in the room to be a standup comedian. And like, you know, if you're in a topic that people aren't comfortable with, then you can get a nice laugh at the end of it. But it's not just for the sake of being edgy.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, that's something everyone's talking about at the moment, which is how often are the joke's funny and how often is it just a forbidden sentence?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, I mean, I haven't been like, around America for a few weeks. Like. Like there is something a little bit embarrassing about some of American comedy where it's like, if you have a joke that doesn't work, if you just stick a slur at the end, people will clap because they think you're like, fighting this good fight to like, it's the

[Chris Williamson]

right wing equivalent of we don't like that orange guy.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Exactly.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's all just clapter. And it's all really, really boring and pandering and sort of nonsense. Like, a big thing with my show that I'm touring at the minute is like, I don't think anybody should be comfortable the whole time, but for different reasons. Like, I think some people who might lean more towards the right or be more there for the edgier, dark stuff, they'll be uncomfortable because I'm like, reasonably vulnerable in the middle of the show and sincere at points and talk about difficult things personally. But then the people who like that vulnerable narrative, thematic stuff will be uncomfortable with some of the jokes that I make later on. And it's just like, yeah, you want to stretch your audience. You don't want to give them what they want. And I think a lot of American comedians are big into getting big rounds of applause for saying naughty words. It's like, do you know when you're like 12 and you found out what a female dog is called and all your mates are like, oh, my God. Like, you can say bitch. Like you can call it a bitch because it's a bitch. That feels like what a lot of American comedy is at the minute, where it's like, we're like, this is naughty. It's not.

[Chris Williamson]

It's like naughty. I don't know what's happening with the vulnerability side, but there's definitely a performative. There's a performative element of both. There's a performative element of pushing beyond what is allowed. This is the oven window. I'm gonna push on that side. But then you Also create the incentive to perform in the other direction, which is to just have endless amounts of vulnerability. Like, I heard this term recently, speedrunning, relatability. Someone trying to, like, hurry their way through just trauma dumping on you in a desperate attempt to be like, I am a real person. Let me show you how much of a real person I am.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And that also is performative, and that also has the potential to be cringe. But when authenticity is incentivized because people seem to like that and people seem to resonate with that, what you end up with is a world of people trying to work out how to reverse engineer authenticity that genuinely looks authentic, but doesn't have to be authentic. It doesn't have to be sincere. It just needs to appear authentic.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It just needs to align with whatever your brand is and whatever your shtick is, your Russell brand, whatever sort of, whatever people want to hear from you. Like, I think that's a big thing with a lot of comedy audiences. They want to know what angle you're coming from from the start. You know, particularly in America. I think it's like, nobody in America is American. Everybody. I'm Italian or I'm Irish or I'm this or I'm that. It's like. And then all their jokes are filtered through that lens where I sort of am slightly averse to that, where it's like, I just tell you what, I think, it's nothing to do with me being Irish. None of these things that define me entirely. I'm not just Irish. I'm not just autistic. I'm not just Italian. I'm fucking. None of those things, really.

[Chris Williamson]

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[Vittorio Angeloni]

Big time.

[Chris Williamson]

What is it about that clip that made you so fascinated with it?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So what's interesting is I. So the show is called who do youo Think youk Are? I am. The ten pin bowler is Pete Weber, who you might have seen on the Internet, shouting, who do you think you are? I am. And I knew when I was like working towards the show that it was gonna be a show about identity and how people perceive me and how I perceive myself. And I just thought that was like a funny meme title for that show. But as I was writing the show and performing the show, I realized that like loads of people hadn't seen the clip, which is crazy to me because in my mind it goes viral like once a month to a crazy level. But like most people I performed on the tour hadn't seen the video at all. So I had to like write an explanation of the video at the start of the show, which was a fucking nightmare. But like actually very fun and like exciting. Like a fun bet and a fun thing to explain. And then as I was working on the show, I was like, oh, this is like, I think he's me. Like in the show. Like, I didn't sit down being like, I'm gonna write a show where I sort of, in the subtext of the show, I am this professional bowler who is like kind of my hero because of this clip. Like, it just sort of became evident to me as I was talking about my experiences of that last couple years of like coming across very arrogant to other people, pissing people off without realizing I was pissing them off. And then trying to refind a bit of that swagger, having like put myself in a bit of a box and avoided that for a while and like, like doing that sort of like wrestling thing and Pete Weber's a big wrestling fan of, like, the heel turn of being like you. This is like a fun thing to play with of, like, steering into this gate of being like, I'm arrogant and therefore, like, you know, Pete Webber's the bad boy of bowling, which is like, a very funny thing to be. Like, it's a crazy thing to be the bad boy of. But so stand up comedy, like, it's a very embarrassing sort of weird art form kind of. And it's like. So, yeah, it just came out of it naturally. And I was really annoyed because he lives in Nashville, but he was away when I was doing my show there, and I was supposed to do that show about him in Nashville, and I really wanted to do it for him. And I don't know if he's watched it. He follows me on Instagram. And I did message him being like, oh, hey, this special came out on YouTube. And he was like, yeah, man, I'm gonna watch it this week. Then he hasn't replied since. But I don't know if he just really didn't like it.

[Chris Williamson]

What was the putting yourself in a box thing? Like, regressing back and then coming back out and interested in that.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So the story from that show is like, I. A clip of my podcast got screen recorded and sent around lots of comedian WhatsApp groups where I was saying, talking about having unexpected. Having an unexpectedly good run at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And I was like, oh, people keep telling me I'm the guy this year. Like, it's my year to be the guy. I'm the fucking guy. And I was saying that I was finding that really stressful. I was having lots of panic attacks, like, how am I going to live up? These weren't people who'd seen the show. They just heard the buzz or whatever. And I was like, how do I live up to whatever?

[Chris Williamson]

This is kind of the Lewis Capaldi effect.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, I'm just like, God, Like, I can't. I mean, on a much smaller scale, but like, that kind of thing. And then. So I was being made fun of. But like, they cut off the podcast clip out of context, where it's just me going, people keep telling me I'm the guy this year. And that. And that got sent around. And then people come up to me during the festival and be like, oh, it's the guy. And I'd be like, oh, it's happening again. Because I didn't find out. I didn't find out about the WhatsApp groups until a month after. So I'D had this month of my life that I was like, this is the best month of my career so far. So exciting, really proud of what I achieved. And I had a really fun time with lots of different comedians. Like, it was difficult at points, but I had a really fun time. And then a month later, all of that was like, oh, fuck. Like, everybody was making fun of me.

[Chris Williamson]

The veil got lifted behind my back. It's like my throwing water on Yasmin Dream. Yeah, it's that I thought we were all having fun. I thought this was a good time.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And everybody just thought I was like, a wanker, which is like, truly, like, if I'd been sent that clip of another comedian, I would have ripped into them endlessly because it's, like, funny and I get how it came across. But I think for fear of that happening again, there was like maybe a year and a half, two years where I, like, tried to put a lid on, like a bit of the self promotion, a bit of the, like, bravado. Yeah. That stuff, which I think is like part of my, like, has always been part of my approach to comedy. But from doing that show and touring that show, like, building that part of myself back up and being slightly less ashamed of, like, yeah, I'm, like, ambitious. I want to, like, like, do lots of cool stuff. And I. I think I can be really good at stand up comedy. And like, the reason I do stand up comedy is I think I can. I think I can be one of the best in the world at it. And I didn't have that when I was like a musician or whatever, but I felt like with stand up comedy, I was like, I'm not saying definitely, and it's all subjective, but I was like, I think I can be one of the best in the world at this. So I've kind of been working on getting my mojo back in that sense. And you kind of have to, because I tell you what's hard to do without any bravado is promote a stand up comedy tour on Instagram.

[Chris Williamson]

Authentically.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. To be like, hey, come see the show. It's like, it's fine, it's not gonna work. And there's loads of comedians that go online and go, oh, fucking hate doing this self promo stuff. And I'm like, yeah, that's the job. I'm sorry you're sort of in marketing,

[Chris Williamson]

but you're also gonna be sad if you only play to a half filled theater.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Exactly.

[Chris Williamson]

So like, you. Yeah. I mean, that's something else that really resonates with me, I think certainly from childhood. Maybe this is working class. You know, I'm from Stockton, Right. Stockton on T. Shithole. It's I, I, I've tried to put across just how horrendous the place is.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's a beautiful theater.

[Chris Williamson]

Yep.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And then everything else.

[Chris Williamson]

Correct.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Is off.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. You've played in Stockton?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I've done the Ark in Stockton. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

I went to go and see that. What's that fucking World War I play about a horse.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Warhorse.

[Chris Williamson]

Warhorse.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You stupid.

[Chris Williamson]

It's like my dream.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I said all of the.

[Chris Williamson]

That's like my dream World War I play about a horse.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Sorry, that was so mean of me, but that.

[Chris Williamson]

Was close.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

What's that book about the jungle?

[Chris Williamson]

Anyway? I went to go and see that in Arc. In the Ark. In Ark. For a good while. I don't know whether it's just a British thing northeast of the uk Whether it was. You need an amount of charm to be able to carry off bravado or ego or, like, confidence. There's definitely the tall poppy thing. If don't get too big for your boots. I mean, fuck me how many times. I know.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Ireland's got that, like notions is what we call it. He's got notions, as in you have notions that you're somebody. If you're accused of having notions, that would be a bad thing. I think I would be accused of having notions too keen.

[Chris Williamson]

Just like, don't know your place.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah. It's tall poppy. It's, it's the exact same thing.

[Chris Williamson]

Right. I like that. Well, I don't like it, but you know what I mean.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And what I learned as being an incredibly unpopular kid in school, highly under socialized, who played cricket. So, like, you know, just in case I was gonna make it worse on myself.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And play cricket at a moderately high level and wear whites all the time. What I learned was if you really aggressively downplay what it is that you've got going on, if you don't talk about your ambitions, if you don't sound like you're too big for your boots, I think I reverse engineered that. A lot of people find you more likable in that way that they don't see you as a threat. It's not quite the same thing as humility. It's kind of like performative humility, in a way.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's meekness, isn't it?

[Chris Williamson]

Correct. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, they're gonna inherit the earth according to the Bible.

[Chris Williamson]

Jordan Peterson would agree. Yeah. But it's not genuine meekness. It's more a fear of judgment where you're. I'm not gonna want to say too much. I won't do too, you know.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Do you know what changed this for me? The movie. Coach Carter.

[Chris Williamson]

I don't think I've ever seen that, brother.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

What is the point in talking to you? You have to have watched Coach Carter.

[Chris Williamson]

I haven't. What's it about?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Basketball. So Samuel L. Jackson is a basketball coach in a sort of impoverished neighborhood. Richmond. The Richmond Oilers. And there's this recurring thing where he asks a player, Timo Cruz, what's your deepest fear? And he, like, refuses to answer. And then he, like, just. But it keeps coming up. What's your deepest fear? What's your deepest fear? And then when Timo Cruz, I think, like, a family member of his, gets, like, shot. But he's like, he turned his back on the team because he didn't want to go to class. He didn't want to do all the strict, like, classic sports movie stuff. Like, you have to have this gpa. You have to turn up. You have to blah, blah, blah, and, like, be respectful, wear a tie, all that stuff. He, like, stormed out, but then he had, like, really horrible family stuff, and then he got back into the team and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Really dramatic moment in the film. He stands up and says, our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. It's that we are powerful beyond measure. It is not our darkness, but our light that scares us the most. And it's this poem that already exists. I can't remember who it's by, but he does the whole poem. And like. Like, I think at some point in my life, I was like, yeah, you know, if you shine your light, it emboldens other people to shine theirs as well. And I think, yeah, it's so easy to be like, that tall, poppy thing. And. Yeah, when do you think you got over that? Because it's like, you're probably a very good example of that of, like, being like, I'm gonna interview people. Like, there's a level of like, who the fuck are you? And why would we.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, yeah, for sure. I think. To be honest, I think I'm still playing it. I'm still. Certainly still downplaying whenever I get asked about what's going on. Like, I did this big interview with. For, like, High Life magazine, which is the British Airways thing. I did something in the Times recently. I did a bunch of others. And if you read through. Sounds like a comedian, it sounds Like a very, very bad comedian trying to do self deprecating. Like every single line is trying to be self deprecating because, well, you know, I, being from the northeast of the uk, I didn't have particularly big dreams anyway, so it's nice that I've surpassed them, some shit like that, like, at every single step of the way.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Other than, like, you have goals.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm the 8th biggest podcaster in the world. Yeah, right. Like, I just. That's something that I can.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And also, you're not done. You think you're annoyed that you're eighth.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You want to be seventh or sixth or fifth or fourth or third.

[Chris Williamson]

Maybe, maybe. But, like, that's okay.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, it's okay.

[Chris Williamson]

It's certainly still there. It's certainly still there. And I think it gets to a point where it actually starts to seep inside of your own ambition a little bit and you go, I'm believing my own reverse hype in a way. Yeah. I'll sort of keep it where it is. I don't want to make waves, get too big for my boots, have notions, you know, be a keynote, et cetera. And like, trying to work through that, I think is a really interesting challenge, to be honest. I still think it's there. Like I'm doing the thing in spite of it, not because of it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I mean, like, in a way it's a good thing to keep an eye

[Chris Williamson]

on, not to have a runaway ego.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And I think that's the sort of what the ego, the super ego, the id, like all of those things balancing each other out. And like, you gotta keep a little bit of it in check, but you just gotta know what it is and when it's useful. When is ego useful? And when are you bragging versus being like grateful for what you've managed to achieve?

[Chris Williamson]

Do you know what I think it might be? I think it might be a deep down belief that I'm so unlikable that I need to compensate for that unlikability by adding in additional upgrades to the personality, which includes. Not ever. Well, I know that for the most part there is a. You need to have like surplus likability to be able to have an ego. So if I don't ever display an ego, that means that the likability that I think is probably lower can be lower, which means that I'm not going to push over and accidentally cause some sort of an issue. I think that that's. I think that's probably a big part of it. And yeah, it's interesting, but One of the things that I certainly talk about at my live show is doing the thing in spite of not thinking that you should be able to like, doing it anyway and being able to turn up and do the Apollo or sit down with Matthew McConaughey or, you know, whatever. Whatever the fuck. Or turn down Donald Trump on the podcast. Like to say no to opportunities, too. Like the. You turned on only podcaster that did last year. No, two years ago.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I picked the right part of the manosphere.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

We did it. Yes. I was fucking. I was. So we've met twice, and I'm so proud of you. Thanks. That rocks. And I know you're, like, meek about like that. I mean, it shouldn't be a high bar to surpass to. Not, like, interview a guy that's sort of bringing in fascism, but, like, nice one, man. That's fucking cool.

[Chris Williamson]

It was definitely a rarity to. The media team reached out to me after the election.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's made my day. I'm sorry. This is so grand.

[Chris Williamson]

Is it really?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Put on this hat.

[Chris Williamson]

Put the hat on. I'm going to put this on instead. So, yeah, the. The media team reached out to me and they were like, you know that. I think of all of the people that got offered it, the only one that said no was you. You are aware of that. And I was like, okay, I guess. I don't know. I didn't have. What am I going to. I'm not going to get anything out of that conversation. Was my. Yeah, I would be far more interested in speaking to him now. And I think it's far less influential and potentially. Yeah, well, it's not like world changing or cantankerous or whatever. And there's less pressure. I was like, I don't. I don't. I feel like I am going to be able to do the job that is necessary. Regardless of what you think about Trump, the guy is a generational communicator, and in the space of 55 minutes, I'm not going to be able to. I sat down with Bernie Sanders and he was like a slippery eel. And I'm like, wow, this is unbelievable. It's like rolling with a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Black or something.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

They've interviewed more times than you can even imagine.

[Chris Williamson]

He's been in Congress longer than I've been alive.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. It's like.

[Chris Williamson]

So I'm like, this is an unfair fight.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

But anyway, saying yes to things, saying no to things, having the dreams, doing this stuff, all of that. But definitely is a good role model. For, hey, you cannot believe in yourself and still make it.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Like, isn't that an incredible fucking, like, motivational? You know, you've got to see it before you achieve it or whatever. It's like, hey, what about if you achieve it and you still don't see it? Because that is also a path. And far more people, I think have got, at least in the uk, have been held back by a lack of confidence than a lack of competence. It's like, hey, you're way better than you think you are. And there's a guy out there who's half as good as you with twice your confidence.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Making 10 times the progress.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Because they're just putting themselves in the right situations and going to the rooms and all the rest of the things. But, yeah, you can kind of. You can just do things. You can, you. You can just do things. And apparently that is kind of the same as believing in yourself.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But I think you sort of have to believe in your, like, inherent, like, good stuff about you, but, like, that you will keep yourself in check, you know, in. In like a way where it's like, like knowing deep down, like, no, I'm like a. I'm not a bad guy. I'm not a complete narcissist or whatever, so I can step a little bit out into the world and like, even if I push you with, like everything, I have to be as out there and confident as possible. Like, because you've got all these worries, like you're really. Now, it's so unlikely that you're gonna overshoot, really. Overshoot.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. It's so funny to think about the fear that you have of being that thing, meaning that you're almost certainly never going to be that thing. That line about, like, if you're worried that you're a psychopath, you're probably not a psychopath.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, I worry about that with the autism stuff. Very similar.

[Chris Williamson]

What, like you've manifested your own autism?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, very psychopathy. Very similar symptoms. Sociopath versus autism. There's like. There's like one thing that's not the same.

[Chris Williamson]

What's the thing?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I can't remember what it is, but it's.

[Chris Williamson]

You're perilously close to being a sociopath.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you reckon anyone's ever thought that before?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, I think lots of people who aren't diagnosed with autism before they get diagnosed with autism, they're like. Like this. I'm really worried that I'm like a.

[Chris Williamson]

Incorrectly pattern matched. I'm a bad person. Not that I don't, I don't care

[Vittorio Angeloni]

about other people or I don't care about whatever. Like, I don't know. That authentic authenticity thing is really difficult though as well. Like, I think it's very easy for that to just make you do nothing. It's like, what do you want to do? What aligns with like who you are deep down inside? It's like, I don't know, I probably just want to sit in and like read my book, you know, like. But like, what? I think I have like quite bad like anxiety maybe to do with the autism stuff. So I've never been able to trust the gut thing. You know, when people go like, I'll just trust your gut. But I'm like, I am terrified of everything I ever do. I'm terrified to leave the house every day. I can't. My gut is not trustworthy. It's very stressy little gut. But you just have to fucking if

[Chris Williamson]

you're trying to go from Joey Chestnut to Joey Swole the RP Strength app is the best place to start. I've been in the gym for two decades and it wasn't until this last year that I had some of the best training sessions of my life. And RP was a massive part of that. Actual scientists built this thing around the obsession to beat up their high school bullies and provide the most science backed effective path to maximizing muscle gain. It tells you your exercises, how many sets, reps, the weights, everything. So all you have to do is show up and lift. If the RP Strength app could wipe your ass for, you probably would. And it adjusts automatically every week based on how you're actually progressing. For me, following a proper evidence based plan has made a massive difference and if you're serious about your training, it'll do the same for you. Right now you can follow the exact same training plan that I use and get up to $50 off the RP Hypertrophy app by going to the link in the description below. Heading to rpstrength.com modernwisdom and using the code modernwisdom a checkout that's rpstrength.com ModernWisdom and Modern Wisdom at checkout. But it's interesting. I've heard you talk as well about how all of the interactions or many of the interactions that you have are kind of prefabricated. There's a response that before somebody asks me a question, I have an idea of what it is that I'm going to Say already. And I think that is a way to not need to rely on instinct

[Vittorio Angeloni]

as much, I think, because, as well, my instincts are so intense conversationally. I just want to ask really difficult questions. I was hanging out with my uncle, and he travels loads for work. He's all over the world doing this big corporate thing. And I was like, we were just like, half of unborn chat of, like, how's this person in the family? How's that person in the family? Blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, are you still, like, enjoying the travel stuff? And he was like, no, not really. And I was like, okay, like, what's your. And I sort of stopped myself from going, okay, but how does it make you feel? Like, what are you. How can you fix that? What's this? What's that with you? Like, I really want to, like, interrogate people's like. And it's not to be like, I think they're wrong or they're doing the wrong thing, and I want to pick it apart. It's like, I just want to, like, them to talk me through their thought process. And just so I find that so interesting, like, the reasons people do things also, because there's often no reason, like, they haven't actually conceptualized that there are other options and they might, like, want to do something else.

[Chris Williamson]

Momentum is a fucking hell of a restrictor on that. Oh, this is what I've always done, or this is what I do do, or whatever.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's the next logical step.

[Chris Williamson]

I'll just keep going.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. There's a cool idea of sliding versus deciding. And it's like, from couples counseling stuff that you move on to the next step of the relationship. We're hanging out on an evening, and then it's a situationship, and then it's a relationship. And then you come over a bit, and then you got a toothbrush and you got a drawer, and we're kind of living together. And now there's a golden retriever, and, oh, we should get married. And now there's a kid, and you wake up with a couple of kids and a golden retriever in a house, and you go, at no point did I feel like I decided to get into this. And it happens with a lot of things in life. I think people slide through a career. Well, you know, I. I didn't know what to do at university, so I did business. I did business studies. And then, you know, I got a job at. I got a job at kpmg. KPMG is great. And then, you know, I just like you, you, you stay here and then

[Vittorio Angeloni]

a lot of promotions.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think it's the same with comedy. Like, the next logical thing for me to do is like, tour, tour, Write another show, turn it around, get another tour on sale.

[Chris Williamson]

Every year. Every year. Every year. Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I want to try and do like, no stand up in 2027.

[Chris Williamson]

What are you gonna do instead?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Just like write scripts, maybe write a book, like just live, you know, Got the podcast that keeps the lights on. Build that a bit more. But, like, be cool to do a year of like not doing it and then really want to go back to it. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, also, in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And see comedians where all their stuff's

[Chris Williamson]

about like airplanes and dinners and backstages or green rooms.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. It's like, gotta get out in the world a little bit and live a bit.

[Chris Williamson]

Where did the name shit yourself?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

At the 911 memorial.

[Chris Williamson]

That's true. That was part of tour. That's great.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The name guide to parenting.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

People think it was like a jab. Like parenting podcasts. It truly wasn't. It was. Mike and I had done like a couple trial versions of the podcast where we were like, okay, we're idiots. Like, we are just talking absolute shite the whole time and it's all silly. And I was like, right. So we could call it Mike and Vittorio's Very Stupid Podcast and that would be like an accurate description. But surely the naming protocol should also match the vibe of the podcast where we just name it the stupidest thing that we can think of. And we landed on Mike and Vittorio's guide to Parenting.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you think many people listen hoping to find some parenting advice?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

We get a few messages. I've put it in the children and family section of Spotify, So it's like in people's recommended pods. If they are new parents, they get recommended also on Spotify.

[Chris Williamson]

I started listening to the manosphere version thinking that it would educate me about what to worry about for my 8 year old son. And I was horrified at what I heard.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. So we just thought it was the stupidest name ever. And the joke answer is we're trying to attract an audience of young moms.

[Chris Williamson]

What trouble have you guys gotten into? Has there been anything coming out of

[Vittorio Angeloni]

that of like the naming thing?

[Chris Williamson]

No, no, no, no. Of the show generally.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The podcast.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, I think, like, look, every so often we get a little message where someone goes, oh, I didn't like that bit. I didn't like this bit. And we have like. I think we have all sorts of people listening to the podcast and I think a lot of people think it's like, guys listen to the podcast, but it's like girls with fringes. I think there's something about, like, guys talking shit in like a playful, silly, fun way. Is a way where I think women generally, like, socially are like very good communicators and talk about their feelings. There's that kind of like, hack, stand up bit of. I went for a beer with my friend, we spent three hours together. I come back home and my partner goes, how's his mom? How's his work going? Is he seeing anyone? And you're like, why would I know any of that stuff? And she's like, you spent three hours together. How did you not talk about that stuff? And they can connect emotionally and really, like, learn about each other and sort of love each other in that way. But I think men, while we're at that first one, and I'm trying to get better at it, we're good at just abstract around chat and like, silly, fun chat. And I think, like, for some men, listening to our podcast would be like, well, I can kind of just like chat to my friends and around with them. And that's what this is. And that's nice when you're maybe like in a new city and you like, don't have that set up yet. But I think a lot of the women that listen to the podcast are like, they don't get those conversations from like their group of girl mates. And some. This is all generalizations and all that stuff. You know, there's some women that are like, have those conversations and have those chats or whatever. But I think, like, we're providing a service that like, isn't as readily available to women in a way, which is quite. It's like, I wasn't expecting it. We weren't targeting a demographic at all. But it was like, exciting.

[Chris Williamson]

Do you know the basement yard you feel?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I do, yeah. They're so funny.

[Chris Williamson]

So Joe Santa Gardo was there last week or something and they did. Madison Square Garden sold that out. 90% women.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Unbelievable, isn't it? I think it's probably a similar thing.

[Chris Williamson]

It's the exact same thing. It's the exact same thing. And the sound, when they walked out on stage, the screams were so loud that everyone's Apple watches went off warning people that they were in an unsafe noise environment. Like some fucking Harry Styles concert. It.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Unbelievable.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That is. And I think, like, that's probably a shame. Like like why women feel like they can't be stupid or silly or fun in that way. You know, they're like. I guess they've been told they're supposed to be buttoned up and like responsible maybe. And men have more freedom to.

[Chris Williamson]

I think it's. I definitely think when it comes to comedy podcasts, it's hard. Most of them are guy centric about guy stuff and then begin to push into an amount of edginess that deselects for a lot of that female audience. Right. Especially one of the more linear paths to pod success or online content creator success is to start to skew. Right. If you're going to do that sort of stuff, I think which again, deselects for a lot of the women. And it's always going to get into some kind of orbit, manosphere, manosphere adjacent Y stuff which I'm aware that you brought it up earlier on. I do need to clear my name.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You're not in the manosphere.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm not even fucking close. They hate me. They hate me.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, but I don't know. You're closer than I am.

[Chris Williamson]

But I know that's not hard. That's not hard. Yeah. I'm a little bitch with your female autism.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I'm a low T female autistic, sort of with a little earring. I get called gay on the Internet every day of my whole life. I don't know, it's funny like, it's funny like you maybe you sit in a very interesting place. I think like you're not in the manosphere. But I think to some people they would say you're like the na. And I don't think you're guilty of any of that shit either. Like the really problematic stuff, but for some reason, like maybe. Cause you're like jacked. Like, is it just that you're like in really good shape and maybe talk about it or like. Cause there's a Venn diagram of like talking about health and fitness and mindset and like those things which does exist in a more problematic male media landscape. But I think you managed to sort of, I don't know and unkind views. You're like the narrowest end of the wedge.

[Chris Williamson]

Correct. The accusation I got after me and Bartlett went viral at the start of the year was that. That I'm the gateway drug to the manosphere, that I'm the little pebble at the top of the avalanche. Well, yeah, you start off listening to Chris Williamson, but before you know it, you've pipelined your way into Nick Fuentes. And Andrew Tate.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Despite the fact that the day after the Louis Theroux documentary came out, I managed to unite feminists and the manosphere in agreement that the worst part of the Louis Theroux documentary was him coming on my podcast. That was what they were tweeting about the next day. It wasn't about the documentary, it was about me. It was like a full half.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

AI, is it Louis coming on?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, Louis coming on my podcast got me every single. Most of the people who were in the documentary weren't tweeting about the documentary, they were tweeting about me platforming Louis Theroux. Wow, that was. That was unacceptable. But only a couple of months before when I'd been on Bartlett, I got called the Lux Maxer, which I actually think is kind of a compliment. All of the newspaper articles about that were right wing manosphere misogynist. But then when I went and did Tucker Carlson's podcast only a couple of months before that, I was accused of being riddled with blue pill thinking and infected with feminist lies. There's a quote yesterday, literally yesterday on Twitter, the big reply that happened to like something I put up that was like some CS Lewis quote that I thought was really like cool and cute and it like talks. It's both sides of the fence about the homemaker is the ultimate career and all other careers are just built to support that one. I was like, oh, wow, this is really interesting because it's like both. It's supportive, it's progressive, it's old school, whatever the fuck. And someone was like more feminist bullshit. In fact, I answered that fucking question yesterday. Like, when are you going to admit that all that you do is spew the exact feminist lies that you that that are creating the problems in the world? I'm like, I'm getting ideologically spit roasted

[Vittorio Angeloni]

because it's a difficult thing because we. I've had like TV producers come to mine and Mike's stand up shows and be like, do you ever worry that your audience are the type of audience that might be in the manosphere or might have some of those incel tendencies or might drift towards that Andrew Tate type of thing? And I'm like, that's really the opposite of a worry for me. Because if me and Mike can get a hold of them before Tate does, then they're not going to become these sort of fucked up, misogynist, violent, like abusive partners with these women because we make fun of those guys and we're softer and we're more open and like, I think a nice Thing that I try to emulate on our podcast. Again, not super actively, but like, as you know, Mortimer and White House gone fishing.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And how like, lovely they are to each other as like older men. And they like, say each other. I love the way they say each other's names, like, how you going? How you doing, Bob? She's lovely. Like, there's some intimacy. Yeah. Male intimacy with like in a. In a friendship that I think is represented on that. And these like TV people were like, oh, we're just not, you know, that's. That's a bit of a worry for us. And I'm like, but someone has to talk to these people. Someone has to talk to young males

[Chris Williamson]

or else you're abandoning that to all of the influences that you have the biggest concerns about.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And it's hard to talk about like, like young men feeling abandoned or without feeling like you're heading towards that manosphere thing. But like, I think that's why I found that benefit from the Jordan Peters and stuff. It was someone talking to me in a way that I could understand in how I can take up a positive space in the world.

[Chris Williamson]

It wasn't patronizing, it wasn't pushing you to. In a direction that you felt was unethical and it wasn't telling me I

[Vittorio Angeloni]

was like a piece of shit for being like a man. Yeah. You know.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, look, you're right. I think it is definitely an interesting whatever middle of the Venn diagram of talking about personal development, health and fitness and, you know, sex differences and challenges between the sexes and birth rates and stuff like that. Because I think they're important issues. But it's. The Internet's really quick to pattern match and especially if you present. Yeah, maybe could, like, fucking hell. Like, you know, someone could look a little bit fruity and you're like, might be. Might be. He might swing both ways. And then this is. Well, he might be, you know, he could be manuscript. But then also again, insufficiently masculine for the manosphere. Because the gay accusations come thick and fast.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You like them coming thick and fast. Sorry.

[Chris Williamson]

One of the things, there's this great, great article that I saw the other day about grind slop. This is. And I think this is something that I've been feeling for a while that you'll be episode 1110 or something like a lot. Right. And much of that is me as a young man going, I don't know what to do, I don't know how to operate in the world. I'm confused about emotions and I sometimes have self doubt And I just sleep. I think I should sleep. I should probably sleep more and I should probably work out what I need to eat. And I'm going to find whoever I can get a hold of to understand that and understand myself and understand the world around me. Especially as the, whatever late adolescent onset, like whatever the opposite of precocious development is. I'm like in my twenties starting to understand me anyway. But there is a degree at least when I have the conversations where I'm like a lot of the 80, 20 of the development side of stuff like, like how to sleep well, what a productivity strategy looks like. This is how you should eat, this is how you should train. These are how you need friends in your life and all of these things. Like, I think a lot of that has already been covered, if not by me, then by other people. So one of the reasons that I've got this studio and we've got this big table and we're doing these episodes with lots of people is I get the sense in the age of AI that just raw information dumping is probably not, not more of what people need. It's probably not more of what I need. I certainly wanna learn about things and there'll be progress to make. But given that lots of that territory's already been covered by me and by other people and I think people are feeling more alone. And I know that I even I, as somebody that's constantly around people have that sense too. I'm like, I wanna listen. I just wanna listen to Matt and Shane. I just wanna like have a hang and like. Or I'll tune into you guys or tune into like Jacob and Jake and just listen to them talk bullshit. I just wanna listen to them talk bullshit. And that's something that I'm actively sort of nudging the show in that direction. And I'm gonna lose a big chunk of the audience from doing that because once a week or once every couple of weeks it's me and my friends sat around talking about whatever the fuck has happened and having that degree of male intimacy and just having a hangin. Not like it doesn't feel like homework. And when you've left you go, did I learn anything? I had a nice time. Yeah, I had a nice time.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

And that's, it's just like an interesting pivot and that's kind of where I'm feeling at the moment that the grind, slop, like work until your eyes bleed thing. I don't definitely been through that era, but I don't think that more of that is necessarily needed. So anyway, I don't even know what I'm saying.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

There's a lot of funny parodies of the sort of grind slop thing. Was his name Doug Baldwin with the tiny little sunglasses?

[Chris Williamson]

He was sat in that seat yesterday.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yo, get pissed. Call the police.

[Chris Williamson]

That's me on the floor.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

He's so funny.

[Chris Williamson]

Some of the bits that we did yesterday are fucking unbelievable.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

He is so funny.

[Chris Williamson]

You know, him and Timmy Nobrakes are partners in a lot of things.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh, great. Okay, cool.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, cool, cool.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. I think he's the funniest guy.

[Chris Williamson]

They make me like, he was here yesterday.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's so funny.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, it was great. So. But yeah, exactly, exactly that.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

And I have a little hope for AI.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That it will be like that. It'll put a premium on, like live experiences and music gigs, people will buy tickets for them and stand up gigs, people buy tickets for them. Because you can't trust anything that's on your phone anymore.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Because it's like, why, like, even watching the Winter Olympics, I was like, is this. I don't think Trump competed. Like, you know, like, there's just something about it where you go, like it makes me. The phone is slightly giving me the ick at the minute because it's like I can't quite trust it. And I just go, it already was.

[Chris Williamson]

No one was already that much of a fan of it and now.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, but it's just like, even the silly fun videos aren't like, you know,

[Chris Williamson]

like if it's propaganda cat videos, but

[Vittorio Angeloni]

like, cat videos were like what the Internet was sort of built on. And now you don't know if it's a cat or if it's just some AI thing. So I think being in the real world might become back in fashion.

[Chris Williamson]

I think so too. I mean, nightclubs aren't. Nightclubs are dying a death, which was my old industry for a long time. I think it's one nightclub a week is closing down in the UK at the moment. There's not that many to be able to go through. I'm aware in the US it'd be like fucking rounding error on the number of nightclubs we've got. You can't get away with that many. And most of them were already a bit shit. Like, you know, when it is, it's when flares closes down. That's when you know that there's a real issue.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Okay.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, that's their patient zero for, like, they're the Overton window for nightlife.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

They've weathered a lot of storms.

[Chris Williamson]

They do. They have indeed. Yeah. With the light up dance floor. Speaking of that, what's the most Belfast way that anyone's ever threatened you?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Threatened me? I mean, there's like fun. Like there's a thing that's happened twice now on the tour and this doesn't feel like a threat, but it does a little bit. There's a bit in the show where I ask if anyone's from where I'm from and I talk about. And the joke is about the naming conventions of like, some people don't say Northern Ireland because they don't agree with the fact that it exists. Some people say the north of Ireland because they think Ireland should be one whole big thing. And that's like a big divide where Catholics would call it the north of Ireland, Protestants would call it Northern Ireland. That's like a thing. So I have jokes about that. And in those jokes I go, obviously. Notice I haven't named where I'm from because in the first chunk of the show, I don't name where I'm from. I say Belfast, but I don't name Northern Ireland. There's a place and I say, oh, have you noticed that I haven't named it? And it happened in Newcastle upon town and it happened in Philadelphia. No, it was last night in Nashville. Happened in Nashville and Newcastle where somebody shouted out the word trench, which is the street my dad grew up on in West Belfast, which doesn't on the face of its grim threat. But it's a bit like, oh, that's intense.

[Chris Williamson]

How did they know that?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, their family knows my family. And in a show that's maybe a little bit contentious about Northern Ireland stuff, it's just a bit like, okay, noted, noted.

[Chris Williamson]

Was the threat scarier in Newcastle or Nashville?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I would say Newcastle. That felt a bit more connected to the whole thing. But it feels like I was reading London Falling, Patrick Raden Keefe's new book. You know Patrick Raden Keefe, he wrote say nothing. You should read say Nothing. I think you really like it.

[Chris Williamson]

Is that a hint?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No. Shut the fuck up. And in it he was talking about when he was like interviewing gangsters who were like around this murder that the book's about. And they would always mention like his kids names and his like dog's name.

[Chris Williamson]

It's just a little flex. We know where you're from. We know who you are.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I know exactly where you're from and who you are.

[Chris Williamson]

French. Fucking hell. I was thinking it was going to be some fun, jovial, little like strange and in fact, it's actually a private investigator guy who knows something deep and dark about.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But West Belfast, so small. Like, I'm not from West Belfast, but my dad is.

[Chris Williamson]

Right?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

But, like, it's a small little world.

[Chris Williamson]

Everybody knows everybody. Paddy Galloway, good friend of mine, he. There's something about the entirety of Ireland that seems diplomatic enough to say the entirety of Ireland.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The island of Ireland.

[Chris Williamson]

The island of Ireland.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Diplomatically. Okay. Also, people are trying to spitball new names for the concept of the British Isles because that claims overship over Ireland by Britain.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So you can't call them the British Isles. I think somebody said, what if we called it the East Caribbean?

[Chris Williamson]

So Paddy. Paddy was. Every single person I know that's from the island of Ireland has a story where there's some sort of family drama feud thing that goes all the way back, despite the fact that England is just as old as and Scotland is just as old. And I don't hear. I don't know anyone that's in England that's got that same kind of heritage. My family and their family and this thing and the farm next door, it just. I don't know. There seems to be way more, like, ossification.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Do you think it's just rurality, maybe, of, like, agricultural communities? Probably do. Like, they're more embedded in their communities, and they rely on each other in their communities.

[Chris Williamson]

If you're less cosmopolitan, you're moving and grooving around.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And that's like, a sad about living in a city, but I try to, like, be connected in a city. It's like, a nice thing to try and build a community living in North London. Like, there's a lady.

[Chris Williamson]

What's the community of North London like?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Jewish? The. The. There's a lady who lives in my block of flats who's this old Italian lady, and she feeds the foxes. So you'll just see her in the bushes every day, like, throwing chicken to foxes. And if she sees one of the foxes has, like, mange, she'll phone a fox charity, get medicine delivered, put it in the chicken.

[Chris Williamson]

She's a fox lady.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Give it to the fox. She looks after the foxes. And it means there's a real fox problem, which is increasing our block of flats because they're very well looked after by this little Italian lady. And. And. But every so often, she needs help sending a WhatsApp. So she comes up and knocks on

[Chris Williamson]

the door, and I like, you're fully integrated.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

So it's like, nah. I try to build that stuff. And, like, I think it's really important and, like, I'm not even doing nearly enough of it as I should. But, like, I think it's a really important part of life that's like, like not easily fixable because it's really scary to just like, say hello to somebody, like on the street or your neighbor or whatever. But, like, it is. It's doable to build.

[Chris Williamson]

It's nice to be needed. It's nice that that person's got something that they need you for.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Because the, the worst thing would be everybody else is a solopreneur digital nomad degen just whatsapping their way through their day. And you go, none of us need any of us.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

At all.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

That's not fun. What. What do you think is something that Italian families do that British people would, I don't know, consider psychological warfare?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Psychological warfare. I mean, it's. Maybe so. Have you heard, like, so Santa has become global, but it wasn't always global. Like Santa Claus.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Like, you know, there was like a weird German one called like the. Is it the Krampus or something who, like, eats kids if they're an Audi, like, that's instead of like a lump of coal. Like you just get eaten by a sort of weird goblin.

[Chris Williamson]

Reverse Santa Claus. Yeah.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. But I think you do get nice stuff if you're good. Or maybe you just avoid being eaten. But our version is, I think, a Labifana. And I think I fucked this up. But this is what I was told where when the wise men were looking to find Jesus, they were knocking on all the doors in Bethlehem because, like, they look for under a star, but, like, that's not a good. It's hardly Google Maps, you know what I mean? So they had the vague area that they were supposed to be in but couldn't find them. So they were knocking on doors going, oh, we're looking for the son of God who's to be born, or, like, who's just been born. And we're trying to find him. And basically this old lady who's like sort of an old witch type character just tells them to fuck off. But then when they leave, she feels bad and she's like, God, if that is like, if that is the son of God, like, that's a pretty terrible thing that I've done not to help these guys sort of bestow gifts upon him. So what she does to cover her bases, she was like, I need to give a gift to the newly born son of God. But she obviously didn't know where he Was. So she gave gifts to all the children in the whole area in the hope that one of those would be the newly born son of God. So in Belfast, growing up, we would go to like a community hall with a bunch of castle and sandwiches and all this stuff and, like, have a fun day. And then we would all sit down and an old lady dressed as a witch would come in and give us all presents. Isn't that fucking mad?

[Chris Williamson]

Is that. Was that traumatic as a nervous, slightly panicky child?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, I think I. I was scared by weird things. La Befana, the witch was absolutely fine. And it's the. What's his. I remember I went to Disney World when I was a child terrified of the Little Mermaid.

[Chris Williamson]

Burst into tears of the mermaid herself or Ursula, like.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No, the mermaid herself. Like the lady, like the actress or whatever, the struggling actress who's playing the Little Mermaid at Disney World eight hours a day. Yeah. Sweat and like a wig. And I think I was just like really freaked out that she didn't have legs.

[Chris Williamson]

You were overwhelmed by the fish lady?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah, yeah. It was just all a bit much for me. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

I remember I went. I went there as well. And what was that? What was the elevator? You're gonna do the same thing. I'm terrified of saying the sentence with the name of the thing in it. The elevator that went up and down and that was the ride. Do you remember this Tower of Terror? Glad that it wasn't the tower. That was terrifying.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

You were fine.

[Chris Williamson]

I remember. Went on that and someone's thing came loose as they fell and there was all of this hubbub. There was a big. I mean, that's. You know, you said if you die on a plane, there's going to be paperwork. I think there was a lot of paperwork.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, I haven't really done roller coasters since. Was it Alton Tires where somebody lost

[Chris Williamson]

their leg on Nemesis? Didn't that happen twice? Can you chatgpt? How many people got injured on Nemesis at Alton Towers?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

The Smiler? Yeah, 16 people.

[Chris Williamson]

The Smiler. That seems tough name. That seems ironic. Tough name crash that injured 16. 5. What was just say what was the one where someone lost their leg?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I think it was Alton Tyres, but I truly haven't been on a roller coaster since. And I don't know, it's just like, obviously, you know, that's a possibility, but you sort of think, I'll be all right. Let's check all the safety on those things. It's a great name. Pagati joke about.

[Chris Williamson]

He's thinking the Smiler.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

A traveling fun fair. Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Fuck me.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Leg amputations. Two people, they must have got crazy money. Five million.

[Chris Williamson]

It doesn't really matter you've lost a leg.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

How much for a leg?

[Chris Williamson]

My leg?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah.

[Chris Williamson]

Fuck.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

It's a tough conundrum, isn't it?

[Chris Williamson]

I really like my leg. I like both of them equally. If you had to lose one, which one would you lose?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's. Oh, that's weird because you know the way you like you have your kicking foot but then you like you jump off the other one. Oh no. Which do I prefer, kicking or jumping? I don't think I would be doing much jumping as like a one legged guy.

[Chris Williamson]

But how much kicking would you be doing?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Loads. I think you're mostly kicking. Crutch bang. I think, yeah. I think I would keep my right leg and train for the Paralympics. As a one legged football guy.

[Chris Williamson]

I think I'd keep my right leg as well. I think that's the important one. I don't know. I've been thinking about. Are you left handed by any chance? No, because that sometimes happens, right. With. I think autistic people have got.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Oh really? We've swapped the. As in you're right footed and left handed?

[Chris Williamson]

No, that there's a disproportionate number of people who are autistic that are also left handed.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Wow.

[Chris Williamson]

I think Google this one. I'm worried about the. Whatever the whatever it is, water usage or whatever it is that you're concerned about. My left hand is essentially for show. It doesn't do anything.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Well, I had a lot. Because when I was a percussionist, right. A lot of the focus of that

[Chris Williamson]

sort of training just bringing the other hand up to the quality of the.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Get this. To stop being so useless and do nearly what you can do with this is like basically the whole thing.

[Chris Williamson]

Dude. Double wow. What's E. What the is that word? Echo.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Echo.

[Chris Williamson]

Echol. Echol.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Echolalia.

[Chris Williamson]

Echolalia.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

That's when you sort of repeat words. It's sort of like audiological stims or repeat words or noises.

[Chris Williamson]

So someone will repeat words or noises.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Yeah. And they just sort of like get stuck in a loop. I get that. Sometimes my girlfriend has to go, hey, well stop.

[Chris Williamson]

What was the last time that that happened?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

I just got like. If a. If I like the way a word sounds, either that I've said or somebody else has said or like in a song, I'll just be like, indigo, Indigo. Indigo. Indigo. Indigo. Indigo. Indigo. Indigo. And she goes,

[Chris Williamson]

Fuck. Vittorio Angelone, ladies and gentlemen, thank you

[Vittorio Angeloni]

so much for having me. This was. This was. This was really good fun.

[Chris Williamson]

You were about to say.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Actually, no.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes, you were.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

No. Yes, you were. I was gonna say this was actively enjoyable.

[Chris Williamson]

Where should people go to check out everything you do?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Vittorio Angeloni on Instagram. I'm a. I'm touring stand up comedy. I don't know when this comes out, but I've got two specials on YouTube. That's probably the best place. I always think, like, it's crazy after a podcast to be like, buy a ticket to see me watch my shows on YouTube. See if you like that. That, and then buy a ticket if you fancy it.

[Chris Williamson]

I can appreciate you, man. All right, until next time, everyone.

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Lovely.

[Chris Williamson]

Dude, isn't that fun?

[Vittorio Angeloni]

Super fun.