The Art of Unstoppable Self-Belief - Joe Santagato - #1108

Summary

Modern Wisdom #1108 — The Art of Unstoppable Self-Belief

Guest: Joe Santagato
Host: Chris Williamson
Date: June 8, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode features comedian, podcast host, and creator Joe Santagato, who joins Chris Williamson for a deep-dive on self-belief, authenticity, and building a successful creative career by being relentlessly yourself. The conversation ranges from the psychology of ambition, navigating fear, handling criticism, and the art of obsessively chasing what excites you—even when you have no clear roadmap. Woven throughout are stories of unexpected career leaps, sold-out live shows, family dynamics, and a refreshing philosophy on the meaning of achievement and fulfillment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Identity, Audience, and “Rabid Support”

• Opening Banter & Name Mispronunciation

  • Joe jokes about his Italian-Irish heritage and common misreadings of his name (00:08).

• On “Having One of the Biggest Podcasts”

  • Joe reflects on public perception vs personal reality:

    “I feel like I can statistically show that the support we get from our audience is so high compared to the viewership… it’s borderline religious.” (04:00)

  • Selling out venues like Madison Square Garden still feels surreal:

    “I went to a Noah Kahan concert at MSG beforehand... then to see our name up, I was like, oh, fuck, this is happening. That's crazy.” (02:13)

• Parasitic vs Parasocial Relationships with Fans

  • Fans’ support feels intimate and authentic:

    “The comments are less fanatic and more like a friend—‘I’m just so proud of you.’ That hits so different.” (05:00)

  • Example of Patreon and live show support displaying depth of loyalty versus mere size of viewership.

2. Humor, Boredom, and Life Observations

• Sexual Satisfaction Stats and Regional Boredom

  • A comedic riff on why states like Wyoming top sex satisfaction surveys:

    “Not much to do out in the woods… they’re probably bored looking at each other. They're so desensitized by the mountains… should we just f each other then?” (06:56)

• Nature, Fear, and Animal Encounters

  • Joe and Chris trade stories about hiking, bear fears, and urban vs rural wildlife—from moose to squirrels and cockroaches—painting a picture of the absurd things that trigger fear or awe (09:28-13:33).
  • Joe admits:

    “You put a cockroach on this table right now. Don’t like that at all.” (13:07) “Even a cat would get me if it ran real quick. I don't like quick shit.” (12:05)

3. The Philosophy of Self-Belief and Obsession

• Signature Line: “Be Realistic About Where You Stand, But Not Where You Can Go”

  • Joe explains the importance of grounded self-knowledge paired with wild ambition:

    “If you know yourself, no one can really say anything to you. That’s why I’m super realistic about where I stand. But as for where I can go? I’m completely unrealistic about that.” (14:06)

  • He references visualizing specific outcomes—like winning an Academy Award—and obsessively manifesting outcomes:

    “Sometimes I’ll listen to a song and just cry because I want it so bad.” (16:30)

• Obsession vs Discipline vs Motivation

  • Chris offers a taxonomy:

    “Motivation’s cool because it makes you want to do the thing. Discipline is making yourself do it. Obsession is I can’t not do the thing.” (32:24)

  • Joe agrees, describing how inner drive made him drop out of college, even without a clear ‘plan’:

    “I had ambition without direction. I just had a physical reaction—like, I can't go back.” (35:50)

• On Failing, Criticism, and Improvement

  • Joe loves hard feedback:

    “I’m super down to be wrong because I'm not trying to be right—I'm trying to do something extraordinary.” (21:14)

  • Progress comes from absorbing genuine criticism, staying humble, and always “being better tomorrow.”

4. Authenticity as a Competitive Advantage

• Why Being Authentic Works

  • Joe frames authenticity as the most effective way to stand out:

    “If I can stay authentic to my voice, then I'll stand out, because there's only one of me and there's only one of you. No one can beat you at being you.” (51:45)

  • Attempting to mimic others (e.g., MrBeast) is a trap—even if that person’s “authentic” self is itself somewhat performative.

• Staying Humble & Not Taking Yourself Too Seriously

  • Joe insists on being serious about the craft, but light about ego:

    “Don’t take yourself too seriously, but do take the work seriously… I’m not changing lives here. My job is to have fun.” (93:29)

5. Freedom, Obligation, and Ambition

• Ambition Without Direction Is Okay

  • Joe and Chris discuss fears around not knowing your “one thing” and the myth of necessary specificity:

    "If you have a fear of not knowing what you want to do, you might back into something safe… but that passion is still burning.” (38:49)

• The Danger of Nonchalance and the Virtue of Trying Hard

  • Both agree: earnestness and being “keen” are often unfairly maligned—especially in British tall poppy culture.

    “If you’re acting nonchalant about things you’re actually passionate about, it’s just insecurity manifesting.” (45:33)
    “I want to earn it. I want people to look at me and feel like he earned it.” (43:04)

6. Fear, Imposter Syndrome & Pushing Past

• On Imposter Syndrome

  • Despite massive success, Joe admits:

    “I do have imposter syndrome. But in those moments, I’m like, I can’t get scared—I can’t stop this. Too many people are counting on it… The only thing that holds people back is that fear.” (27:56)

• Fear as a Driver and Not an Obstacle

  • Chris reframes courage—not as absence of fear, but as moving forward in spite of it.
  • Joe’s advice when fear gets in the way:

    “Just don’t be a bitch. What are you actually afraid of? If it doesn’t work out, you’re in the same spot you are now.” (157:49)

7. Work-Life Balance, Fun, and Engineering Happiness

• Protecting Creativity and Fun at Work

  • Joe is committed to a happy, collaborative team environment:

    “Our job is to have fun and to entertain—but in order to do that, you need to be happy.” (95:35)

  • He chooses work-life balance and flexible schedules over maximizing profit or scale.

• Turning Down Big Opportunities for the Right Reasons

  • Joe turned down high-paying brand deals and bi-coastal filming gigs (including hosting for The Rock) when they didn't align with his values, schedule, or desired life:

    “What do you think of me, that you can buy me into it? I just said I don’t want to do it.” (103:32) “I was protecting myself—authenticity mattered more.” (111:21)

8. Philosophy on Mistakes, Growth, and Agency

• On Mistakes as Fuel for Growth

  • Be willing to fail, and extract the lesson:

    “When you do fail and get your ass whooped, you just closed a possible door and now have less to choose from. You just learned something.” (60:27) “Everyone can teach you something. Just shut up and listen sometimes.” (145:36)

• Alchemy of Adversity

  • Chris calls it “alchemy”—turning life’s shit into something valuable.

    “The only way to grow is to constantly admit when you’re wrong.” (55:03)

9. Success & What Matters Most

• Prioritizing Meaning Over Money

  • Joe embraces the Mexican Fisherman parable (122:06) and concludes:

    “What matters is making sure I’m a good person… I just want to earn things, because that makes me feel good.” (124:45) “Your life isn’t the Lambo, dude.” (124:45)

• Creating Community and Long-term Impact

  • Finds joy in mentoring, bartending dreams, and building friendships globally—valuing experiences and human connection above all else.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Obsession:

  “Obsession is I can't not do the thing. Like, I’m unable to stop myself from doing it.” — Chris (32:24)
  “Sometimes I, when I was thinking about MSG and Radio City—those were two really big moments in my life—and for Radio City... I wanted us to come out to [a particular] song a year before it was booked... Sometimes I would just cry because I just want it so bad.” — Joe (16:30)

• Authenticity:

  “No one can beat you at being you... But a lot of people are trying to be someone else.” — Joe (51:55)

• On Turning Down Opportunities:

  “I turned down a $75,000 brand deal for a mobile game because they wanted me to do the ad wrong. I’m not doing that.” — Joe (102:13)

• On Fear:

  “Mostly I’m scared—but there’s a voice in my head so loud, like, yo, fucking do it! Don’t be a coward. Do it.” — Joe (134:47) “Just get out of your own way… even getting out of your own way will result in a lot of opportunities popping up.” — Joe (152:18)

• On Growth and Failure:

  “If you’re lucky, it’s gonna suck. You should suck because that means you grew and got better at something.” — Joe (142:33)

• On Community and Fulfillment:

  “The world is massive, and there’s so much out there… the idea of just going to a random small town in Ireland and making a friend—best thing in the world to me.” — Joe (127:16)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment & Topic | |--------------|---------------------------------------------------| | 00:08–04:00 | Name banter, audience, podcast success, MSG show | | 14:00–18:00 | ‘Be Realistic Where You Stand’—philosophy | | 32:24 | The difference between motivation, discipline, obsession | | 27:13–35:53 | Imposter syndrome, ambition without direction | | 51:45–54:00 | Authenticity as competitive edge | | 102:13 | Turning down $75k brand deal | | 124:41 | What matters most: being good, impact, joy | | 122:06 | The Mexican fisherman parable | | 145:36–147:24| Belief, checks and balances, healthy skepticism | | 157:49 | Courage vs. fear—advice on embracing discomfort |

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Flow & Tone

The episode masterfully blends humor with earnest self-reflection, retaining Joe’s casual, energetic, and honest style. Both host and guest move fluidly from jokes about sneezing, wildlife, and regional quirks to raw admissions about self-doubt, resilience, and creative obsession. The tone is candid, energizing, and full of relatable wisdom for anyone seeking fulfillment through authenticity and action.

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Summary Takeaways

• Self-belief doesn’t require certainty about “the plan”—just conviction to keep trying, even in the face of fear, missteps, and criticism.
• True authenticity, not borrowed formulas, is the ultimate “competitive advantage,” especially in creative endeavors.
• Earnest effort and the willingness to fail spectacularly are far superior to nonchalant “coolness” or perfectionistic inaction.
• Express gratitude for current success, prioritize community and real-life joys, and never let the quest for more overshadow the meaning found in today.
• Put yourself in the path of opportunity, be prepared to get lucky, and above all: “Just say yes to shit.”

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For more from Joe Santagato:

• [@JoeSantagato on socials]
• Podcast: The Basement Yard

Listen to all Modern Wisdom episodes at:

• https://modernwisdompodcast.com

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[Summary by Modern Wisdom Podcast Summarizer — June 2026]

Transcript

[A]

Joe Santigado, welcome to the show.

[B]

Wow, that was intense. You said my name, like, so British. I love it. Thank you for having me.

[A]

I have to pronounce it correctly. Okay.

[B]

Yeah, it's a tough one. People just read and they say Santiago, and I'm like, all right. Anybody comes up to me and they're like, are you Joe Santiago? I'm like, yeah, sure, like, whatever.

[A]

Imagine if there's a really famous Joe Santiago somewhere that's like, this guy keeps on taking all of my cred.

[B]

I assume that that has to be the case, but it's just me. Plain old white.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Italian, Irish. That's true.

[A]

Plain and white as you can get. Actually, plainer and whiter is British, but that is fair. Yeah. You have one of the biggest podcasts in the world, and you recently sold out Madison Square Garden.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you were to draw a Venn diagram of your audience.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And my audience.

[B]

Right.

[A]

How much. How much crossover do we think there is?

[B]

I think it would look like the front of a Jeep, dude. Just like, just. Just kind of like.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

I think so. I mean, I think that people. Are you like that one got him with the Jeep? Yeah. I don't. I don't know that there's that much crossover. I don't know, but I'm sure that's a big place. Yeah. You know what I think? I don't really feel like I actually do have one of the biggest podcasts in the world. I think that I have a face that because I've been on the Internet for so long, that people are like, I fucking. I've seen this guy before, but I don't really know what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's kind of like one of those things.

[A]

But you do have one of the biggest podcasts.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. Yeah. You can

[A]

brush it away. That was very British of you. It was really nice.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Just do the self deprecation. Well, you know, Medicine Square Gardens, actually, it's only if you.

[B]

Yeah. See, that doesn't even enter my consciousness that that actually happened. It's kind of a crazy, like, thing. Like, it's. It's. It's like, leading up to it, I, I, I went to a Noah Khan concert at MSG beforehand, and I'm sitting in the crowd and I'm looking around. I'm like, there's no way, dude. I was just thinking about, like, how many people work here. Even, like, that's a lot. And Then we're going to. Come on.

[A]

You got to come into work for me.

[B]

Yeah. Like, you telling me that the shop's going to be open or, like, people are going to be selling Maker's Mark out there and I'm gonna be on stage. Are you kidding me? Like, get the fuck outta here. But yeah, it happened. It was crazy. In, like, the little moments too, is when it's the craziest, because I feel like I have to mentally lock in, in those moments in some sort of way and just pretend like, yep, this is me, this is my show. I'm gonna go to the show.

[A]

I'm supposed to be here.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like a weird feeling, but then as you're walking to the stage, there's like a big vinyl, like, on the wall. And. And then it says, like, the basement yard, and it says, like, sold out show, then the date or whatever. And it's like, that was oddly a moment where I'm like, oh, fuck, this is happening. Like, this is crazy. And then you're walking through the hallway and you see the photos of all these famous moments that happened there. And I'm like, what is going on, dude? My mom's really good at putting it in perspective for me because she shows up and she's just like, what are we doing? Like, what is it going on? And that's how I feel.

[A]

Is that putting it in perspective?

[B]

It is. It's kind of feels like. Because you could get lost in. In just doing the show and doing the thing and you're kind of like, this is the next show. This is. Yep, this is cool. But this is another show. But eventually someone's just like, yeah, we're standing in Madison Square Garden right now. I'm like, I know what the fuck's happening? Like, it's crazy, dude. And it. It honestly is. I don't know. I. It. It doesn't make sense at all. It almost feels like the. The support that we have from our fan. Like, I know fucking everyone says this, but, like, truly there is a. I feel like I can statistically show that the support that we get from our audience is so high compared to, like,

[A]

the viewership, you know, borderline religious.

[B]

It's insane. Like, so.

[A]

And which is the maddest thing, because the number of comments on this video that are going to be like, this guy's really funny. Who the fuck is he?

[B]

Right. Which is what I want, by the way. Yes, I would like that. But not like, who the fuck is this?

[A]

Fucking Santigo is like, just multiple different

[B]

versions of my name. They're like, the fuck is this guy's name, dude? Damn. Are you drinking in here? What's up?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get everything?

[B]

No, I'm okay. Yeah, I don't even know what the fuck I was saying, to be honest. What were you talking about?

[A]

Rabid fans.

[B]

The rabid fans. Yeah. So one thing that I usually, like, kind of point to when it comes to that conversation is we have, like, a top five Patreon in the world, and they. They. And our viewership doesn't really match that metric. So should we be top five? Not should, but, like, the fact that we have a top five just goes to show that we were able to convert that many people into paying whatever it is every single month to get an extra episode of this podcast, which is, like, outrageous. And we get so much support from people in that way. And then all of. I think every single show that we've done outside of, like, a casino show here and there have all sold out. And we also do really well on merch when we go to shows, and it's just because there's a rabid support of people. And one thing that is very interesting that I did not expect whatsoever is people in moments that are big for us, obviously, like when we did Radio City and when we did msg, the comments that they leave don't really feel like fanatic. It feels like a friend or someone that knows you, and they're like, I just want to let you know, like, I'm just so proud of you. And, like, that just, like, hits so different. It's like, man, what the. I didn't expect that. You know, like, it really feels like there is a, you know, sort of a relationship there, like this parasocial thing, but that it truly, like, feels that way when it comes to that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When other people are like, I know your uncle's name, I'm like, all right, chill out. Yeah.

[A]

Like, don't know that, but okay. Fucking PI.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wyoming women are having the best sex in America. The women of the cowboy state are riding more than just horses. Wyoming women are the most satisfied with their sex lives, According to a newly published report from Babeland, a sex toy boutique with locations in New York City and Seattle. Babeland determined which states women were the most sexually satisfied through examining a host of different factors, including how often women have sex each week, how they rate their sexual experiences, as well as the number of sex shops per state and the reviews for those adult boutiques. Wyoming women were at the top of the stateside Pleasure heap. Followed by New Hampshire, Maine, Oregon and Texas. What do you think about that?

[B]

One more time with the, with the states.

[A]

So Wyoming top New Hampshire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oregon and Texas.

[B]

Not much to do in the, in the areas like in the areas like out in the woods or whatever. It's like you're probably bored looking at each other. Like how often? Like they're probably so desensitized by the mountains and the trees that they're like, I don't know, should we just each other then? I don't know. Like, what else are you going to do? Like, I go out there and I enjoy nature and I'm like, oh my God, a deer. Because I live in New York and we see pigeons and run over rats and that's pretty much it. But if I, but if I lived out there, then I'd be like, I guess we'll just keep each other.

[A]

You think that the high quality sex is due to boredom?

[B]

Is that crazy?

[A]

I actually probably know.

[B]

It makes sense. I mean, if the states were very different, right? Like Texas. Texas is a big state.

[A]

It's true. But there's a lot of people in Houston and Dallas.

[B]

That is true. But there's. But there's a lot.

[A]

What's in. I have no idea where New Hampshire even is. What is that?

[B]

What is New Hampshire? Yes, it is a state.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

But it is next to Vermont, so it's like above New York.

[A]

Fuck. Okay, so there is literally nothing to do there.

[B]

There is, yeah. That's like a, it's a wasteland basically. I'm not talking shit about. Actually. Vermont has really good skiing. They have ski towns.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

There's Killington and Stowe. So it's nice for that. But what I mean by there's nothing is like, it's not like there's like a hub, like no one's going on vacation of Vermont is my point.

[A]

I've been to Portland, Maine and I've

[B]

been to Portland too.

[A]

It was very nice. But there wasn't a lot going on.

[B]

No, it's just, you know, lobsters and weed.

[A]

They had a stuffed moose at the arrivals in the airport. Like a life size moose.

[B]

I'm into that. I like stuffed animals, but only if they're like to size.

[A]

You want a taxidermy thing, but you don't want it to be shrunk down.

[B]

No. Yeah, I think that's, that's cowardly.

[A]

Okay, so you don't want to replica moose.

[B]

No, I would like a full moose to be like on display because you always, like, hear about moose, but, like, have you seen one in, like, person? I've seen videos.

[A]

I've only seen videos.

[B]

I've only seen videos. Actually, I did see one, but it was like, in the trees. And I'm like, I didn't get a good look at it. I can't even remember it right now.

[A]

We went to Bozeman, Montana and did this. The longest fucking hike ever. And as we came back down, we were gonna camp that night. The last time I camped, I must have been 16 or something. So I'm like, I'm excited. Like, this is cool. I'm going camping. And there's warnings everywhere for bears. So you're really precautioned about the bears? And one of the guys, I've got this bear spray, but sort of doesn't work. I'm like, don't say that.

[B]

Yeah, don't tell me that.

[A]

The thing. So anyway, he's like, well, you don't really need to worry about the adult bears. What you need to worry about is the mums. Like, the adult males aren't the ones that are dangerous. It's the mums. And as we're pulling in in the trap, my friend that I was with was very nervy about the bears. But the guys are like, look, the likelihood of us seeing a bear is really low. The likelihood of it being in between you and whatever is super low. We're all gonna be around a fire in any case. The tents and all the rest of the stuff as we're pulling in, look over the far side and there is a bear that's about this big, like, baby bear.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we're like, that's bad. You're not far from your mom.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[A]

Immediately he was like, I'm out. I'm not going. But we managed to convince him. But, yeah, that was the fucking bears.

[B]

And I also got roped into Beardom at one point when I was in. When I was in Washington, I did a van trip with my friends and we slept in a van for like a week. I took two showers. It was disgusting in there, obviously, but it was beautiful. It was one. One of my favorite shows I ever been on was. But I. The first hike that we did, we got up at like 3:30 in the morning and then did this hike. And we had headlamps and they were like, oh, bring a headlamp. And I'm like, yeah, you know, whatever. And we're doing this hike and I'm like, pretty excited. You know, it's the first day so I'm like, let's go. And then I hear one of my friends go, like, who has the bear spray? And I was like, hold on. I'm like, why do we need bear spray? It's like, oh, this place has, like, a lot of bears. I'm like, why are we doing this? We're not even, like, built for this. Like, we're from New York City. Like, no. Like, you know, I'm sure there's people who live around there that know what to do in that situation. But, like, we're spraying, we're hoping we're. We're banking on a spray. I can't. I. I can't. But, I mean, we ended up doing it. Didn't see a bear. If I did see a bear, though, like, I don't know. First of all, I'm shitting my pants. I know they could smell that. So, like, we're.

[A]

They like it.

[B]

I'm leaving a trail. I don't know. That's how we track them. I'm sure. I'm sure they're tracking us. When people are shitting their pants like me, they can smell that.

[A]

You're telling me that your fear is attracting the bear?

[B]

No, the. The fear is resulting in the shit. My fear? Oh, well, yes. I guess that my fear is that with this inevitable shit in my pants, I will be leaving breadcrumbs back to me.

[A]

I will be mauled by a bear because of how much of a pussy I've been.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. When it comes to. I love animals, but when it comes to, like, I love animals when I'm prepared to see them.

[A]

You don't jump scared by them?

[B]

No, I don't really like that. I don't like that shit in movies either. I like to be prepared for things, but I don't like that. I don't like the. You know, like. Like, if I am out in public and I saw, like, even a cat would get me if it was, like, running real quick. I don't like quick shit. I'm serious.

[A]

We were in the garden after yesterday, before I came for dinner with you, and my housemate was looking at this squirrel, and he's like, dude, can you imagine if squirrels were any bigger than they are? The fucking pace, the frame rate that squirrels move at is so fast.

[B]

You would be.

[A]

If they wanted you, you would be completely dead. Even at the size, they are clambering all over you, you just flail forever and then be died.

[B]

This is unbelievable. I feel like I'm speaking to my conscious because I Have talked about this so many times, but my thing is, like, fuck the size that they are. If they decided it's over, it is over. Because what am I going to do? I can't fight two squirrels. One I could probably, like, rip off me two of them, though. I mean, they're eating my eyes out because they're so fast and they, like. You see them get up a tree.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

It's at the speed of light. So, like, this isn't happening for me. Like, I'm not that. So if the squirrels wanted to, they

[A]

could, you know, try and fee five your way through getting around this fucking squirrel that's all over you.

[B]

It's a fear of mine. I also don't really like birds or I hate bugs. You want to see me turn into a little bit. You put a cockroach on this table right now. Don't like that at all.

[A]

As a New Yorker, I. I think, yeah. I don't like the animal of your city.

[B]

I know it's a state bird. I don't like it at all. I don't like things that have, like, you know, like little and, like, little hands and antennas. And they're, like, wet. Yeah. Like, you know, like, you see, like, tarantulas up close, and it's like, how many eyes does this thing have? And then. And then they have. It looks like they have a couple mouths and a bunch of teeth. And I'm like, I just.

[A]

Not for me.

[B]

Not for me at all. And they're hairy. I can't. It's too much.

[A]

What do you think they think of you?

[B]

That's a great question for when you interview a tarantula. I'm going to watch that fucking episode. I am going to watch that. Let me.

[A]

Joe Santiago. What do you Have a look.

[B]

Jose Santiago. How do you feel about tarantulas?

[A]

Maybe that's the guy that everybody thinks that you look like.

[B]

Probably.

[A]

I'm sure there's famous tarantula.

[B]

There's got to be thousands.

[A]

You've got this line, be realistic about where you stand, but not where you can go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's that mean?

[B]

I think that that is the thing that, like, helps me the most. Like, I really feel like my. If you could pick a superpower that you have, like, something that, you know is the reason for the way you are.

[A]

British accent, right?

[B]

Well, yeah. Honestly. Honestly, yes. And you're in good shape. Those two things. I would talk every time.

[A]

Very far.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, my God. That's why I'm. I mean, I went for a Run this morning. That's why. But I think that being realistic with yourself, especially like where you stand at the moment is very important because a lot of people do this thing where they conflate, manifesting and I don't know this like, positive affirmation thing for like, just tell yourself that you're better than you are, which I. I think that has a place in certain areas. But I do think it's important to realize where you are because it helps you to. It humbles you. And you say, this is where I am right now and this is what I'm capable of. And if you know yourself, then no one can really say anything to you. You can't be hurt by a comment or, or anything like that. You are on a mission. I know who I am. And then the be on or what I don't even know the fuck the rest of it was. But it's like, like not being realistic about where you can go. I'm extremely unrealistic about that part. So that part, I. I really believe that I can accomplish anything. I don't think it's easy, but, like, I'll give you an example. That's like insane. And some people are gonna be like, fuck this kid. But I saw a video of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon winning the Academy Award for Best Screenplay and I watched it back like 20 times. Not kidding. I'm also like that. I'll watch it like crazy if I'm like feeling something from it. But I'm watching that and a part of me is going like, I can do that. And I don't like, in a sane mind, I don't. Obviously that's crazy to say, but I do believe that. I believe that I can't do it right now. I don't think I'm capable or my first shot at I can do it, but I feel like I can if I wanted to and really apply myself, I can do that. Obviously that counts for nothing. You have to put in all that work. But I think the fact. I think letting yourself know that it is possible and you are capable of actually achieving that goes a long way. You know, like having certain people that blow up. As a musical artist that came from like a small town or whatever, like, that is very inspiring to those people that live in a small town or anyone that lives in a small town, like, that's a relatable thing. It's like, well, usually only people from LA are movie stars, but you came from this small town. So I live in a small town over here. So that lets me know that, like, oh, it is possible to make it in some sort of way. And that's just an example of that where if you allow yourself to be like, I can do that, like, if I wanted to. And I am, I become, like, obsessed with things. Like, very passionate about things to the point like, I'm nuts, dude. Like, I'm fucking crazy. Like, I, when I really, like when I was thinking about MSG and Radio City, those were two really big moments in my life. And for Radio City, I, I knew what song I, I wanted to, like, I wanted us to come out to like, a year before it even happened, before it actually was booked. I, like, knew what song I wanted it to be, and I wanted to know, like, I knew how we were going to promote it and all these other things. Because I, like, hear a song and then it kind of motivates me a little bit and I have to listen to it a bunch of times to the point where, like, now I'm visualizing this thing, like, I'm doing the manifesting. And I, I literally was listen, because the song is Bob O'Reilly, Teenage Way Fire. So I, I, I had that song in mind for this. And then I would, like, if I went for a run and I put it on, like, sometimes I would just cry because I just, like, want it so bad. But I don't know, sometimes I, I want that and I don't even know what I want. Like, I'm just very intense about this is gonna sound. I mean, I don't know. We got this. So, like, but, like, energy is so, like, real to me. And if I can hear a song or I see a video or I see someone talking about something and it, and it resonates with me even a little bit, I have to watch it religiously. And I just, I just want to understand so much of, like, why I feel that way. And it, it inspires me. And I really think that, like, not, it goes beyond people saying, like, anything is possible, which is true, but that's, like, very general. Like, I feel very capable. Like, I actually feel capable to, to do things. And just because I think it, obviously that means nothing, but I, I do. I, there's like, a feeling in me, like, truly, like, it's like, in my body that I really feel like if I go after some sort of project, I will get it done in some way or I'll fail at it, which is totally fine, because it's not. That doesn't stop me. Like, obviously you're going to fail Failed many times. Many times. But it doesn't stop me from wanting to get to that position. I will always go. I never get discouraged.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah, I do. I, yes, I would say that I always kind of felt that way partially in certain ways where how I grew up. I always felt like I'll be fine even if I wasn't going to be. I was perfectly okay with not really being fine, like financially like not being fine. And I literally just wanted to do this sort of thing. That's all I wanted to do was to have this job and entertain people. It wasn't about how much money, it was literally like I want to do it and I kind of want to do it on my own terms and I want to stand out and I want to be as authentic as possible. So that's kind of what my goal was like. That's what drives me is to I don't want to veer too far off from the person I was when I first started doing all this, if that makes sense. Because the mindset like I was just talking about, like that hasn't changed at all the way that I sort of view it. Like I think I can do it so I have to do it my way sort of thing. And part of that is I'm because I'm very realistic with myself. I am. I love criticism. Like, that resonates, especially, like, if people are just, like, hating and it doesn't really hit you at all that, whatever, it doesn't matter. But when someone criticizes you or they have advice for you and they say something and you're like, oh, like, I love that. I love those moments. Part of the reason why me and Greg work together is because years ago I, like, wrote a script and I was, like, showing, like, my friends and family and shit. They're like, oh, my God, this is so funny. Sent it to him. He sent me back, like, eight pages on why it sucks. Like, like, so many things like why it sucks. And I was reading all of them and I'm like, oh, my God, these make so much sense. And, like, that's exciting for me because it's like, now I'm making some sort of progress. Like, there's no way I'm getting this right on the first try. Like, I am super down to be wrong, because I'm not. I'm not trying to be right about. I can do something. Like, I'm trying to do something extraordinary, which is going to require some sort of collaboration, especially at this point. Especially if you want to do something really extraordinary and like, win some sort of award or whatever. Like, my approach would be to something like that, the Academy Award is what I'm talking about, which is not actually, like, a goal. I don't want people to feel like this is what I'm doing over here, but it's. It's more of like, if I get the opportunity, I'm putting everything into this thing and I will dot every I and cross every T. And I am not trying to get a greenlit. Like, I'm trying to get it to be the greatest show anyone's ever seen for its category. You know, like, that is kind of my approach to those things. And I feel very capable, especially with, like, the people that I have around me. Like, I get a lot of help and I believe in them tremendously. And I think that we're super lean, but I just feel very capable in that way. We didn't really expand the team, like, crazy any for any of these big moments. I kept it like the people. We were all doing it for the first time and we were figuring it out. And, you know, after. After realizing that I'm referring to touring now, but it was just six of us and really, like, four of us are kind of, like, making decisions and dealing with the companies and whatever. But we wanted to do it ourselves. A company had offered help to, you know, help with the tour, but we wanted to do it. We thought. We felt that we were capable. We also wanted to see how involved it was, and if we were just going to give money away to somebody or if we could handle it ourselves. And we did the show for two years, had a very good, like, success with it, and now we know what's involved. But that was always going to be the approach, because it's like, we can do it. Like, let's just do it ourselves. And a lot of people. We heard from a lot of venues that a lot of people show up with, like, a big team and they have, you know, this and that. Granted, we don't really have, like, a super involved show, to be fair, but they were. People were always kind of like, oh, it's just you guys.

[A]

I'm like, yeah, you turned up at MSG with five people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they were like.

[B]

There was a stage manager that, like, they have people there. Like, they. But, like, usually, I mean, MSG is a different thing. They hire, like, some guy who's, like, done it and he's like, for real. But in other places, it's just someone who works at the theater and. And sometimes you get to a theater that's, like, super old and, you know, like in. In Tampa. I don't remember the name of the venue, but we went there and the computer that they tried to upload our, like, show to, basically because we have some assets on the screen and whatnot and some other components. The computer was, like, from fucking 1857. And the guy's like, hold on, I got a MacBook. He brings out something from 1995. I'm like, we're getting warmer, but this won't turn on. And we had to get our photographer to go back to the hotel room, get his laptop set up the entire show, and then we basically ran the entire thing. So sometimes you run into that if you don't have an entire team like that that shows up and, like, plugs in, does the whole thing. But we like to keep it super lean. I enjoy that, and I enjoy saying that all this stuff that you see and everything that we've kind of accomplished have come from these people.

[A]

What's the. What's the gender split of your show, of your audience?

[B]

I believe it's around 70, 30 female. So it skews female. It may be, like, a little lower than that, but.

[A]

And then at the live shows, the

[B]

live shows, it's overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly female. Yeah.

[A]

90, 95%.

[B]

I mean, I don't know, about 95, but we're getting there. Like, it's. I think it's probably, like, realistically, like, 85%. Like, it's a lot.

[A]

To the point where people's Apple watches go off.

[B]

Yes. Told you about that. But it was. It's very loud. My first show ever, I was, like, super nervous, and I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't know if we were going to do a good job. And I walked out on stage, and the only thing I could think about was how loud it was. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I've never heard something like this before. I've never, like, been on a stage in front of that many people. Our first show, I think, was 1700 people in New Jersey. And I was like, new Jersey women

[A]

will make a lot of noise as well.

[B]

Yeah, they do make a lot of noise. Yeah. Oh, my God. A lot of that. Yeah.

[A]

So one of the most common areas. I think it's the most commonly cited psychological area for growth that women want to work on. And certainly at my shows, because I do a lot of Q and A, it's the most common thing that women talk about to me as well, is imposter syndrome. And what you have is kind of like reverse imposter syndrome.

[B]

I also have imposter syndrome, though.

[A]

But you have it at a level where, why is everybody here for me? But at no point does it put a ceiling on where you think that you can go. Because I think for a lot of people, their sense of self now is, I shouldn't be here. And that bleeds over into. And therefore, I definitely can't go that much further. Does that make sense?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And I think that, at least by the sounds of things, you sometimes get surprised with, like, what the fuck is msg? And the Radio City with all of these people? And apparently it's 130 decibels.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. But that doesn't slow you down going forward.

[B]

No, because one. Now I also feel like an enormous responsibility because for a long time, it was just me who was making all the decisions, and I was. I didn't have any employees, so I didn't have anyone. Or I did have an employee, but we were younger, so there wasn't a lot of stakes. But now I have employees that have children, that have mortgages, that have, you know, things to pay for. And, like, there's a little bit more of a pressure from that. But I. I also, in those moments, I have imposter syndrome. Where I kind of feel like this is obviously very ridiculous that this many people are here. And I don't, I don't. I don't really know how it happened this. Because it feels very quick, like it just kind of flies by and then you're, you're there. I'm standing on stage at MSG in front of a sold out crowd, and you're kind of like, what the hell did I do to get here? I don't even remember. And that's like, that's a, that's a, you know, a weird experience. But I don't even know where I was going with that, to be honest. But it's. I do have imposter syndrome. But in those moments, a part of me is also like, I can't get scared. Like, I can't stop this because too many people are kind of counting on it. And I. And I think that I, I sort of owe it to myself in a way that I should keep pushing and seeing what I'm capable of. Because really, the only thing that I think holds a lot of people back is this fear of things like that where you're like, well, this is. Either that's not for me completely, or this is good enough, or, you know, this is good enough is actually not what I want to say because I think that everything that I've been doing is like, good enough. But I just want to know that, like, I want to know what my full potential is. Like, I want to know what I'm capable of. There's still fear that lives in me that feels like you turn down certain opportunities or you don't do certain things because of fear. And you, you especially.

[A]

How much do you feel that? How much do you feel fear?

[B]

All the time, I think all the time. I mean, there's certain parts of it that. There's certain parts of it that I'm afraid of. And it gets easier when you kind of do stuff. I was afraid to do live shows. I was, I was, like, nervous about doing it because you're so comfortable, like just on the Internet and it's like you can edit it. There's no, like, really high stakes. But can you perform for two hours in front of people? Like, that's a very big jump. And a different thing, especially when you're doing a podcast show that people have no expectations coming into the show. Like, what the fuck is it gonna be? Like? Are you gonna get on there and sit on stage and talk to your boy? And that's gonna be the whole show? Like, it can't be that. It can be. Some people do it. But I was not interested in that whatsoever.

[A]

Lazy people do.

[B]

Yeah, I was not interested in that whatsoever. I held off until we had a good idea. And also at a point where we felt like we are hitting a stride and the show has, like, grown to the point. And this feels like, okay, this is a logical next step, but we're gonna make it wor. Because I. Going back to what I was saying before, none of this is for the money. I really just am not motivated by money at all. So I would feel horrible if I went out there and. And didn't try. And if they loved it, it would make it worse because then it would feel like, oh, I manipulated them and give into giving my money. And they're happy. Why are they happy?

[A]

I didn't even try mailed it in.

[B]

Yeah, I mailed it in. And they're happy about that. Like, they shouldn't be happy about that. Like, they should hold me to a higher standard, you know? And I think that's like manipulation. I mean, people do that to their audience.

[A]

There's a line. The guy who. You didn't know Alex there.

[B]

No, I know Alex. I just was shocked by the fact that you guys wrote.

[A]

Yeah, it's very regal.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He's got a line which says, control freak is a word that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards. Control freak is a term that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards. And what you've said is dotting every I, crossing every t, Spending a lot of time obsessing over. It sounds like you're quite obsessive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To me, like, I mean, you are by definition. I watch a video and there's a section of a video that I can't stop thinking about because it makes. Gives me goosebumps or it makes me cry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you're obsessing over this emotion, this energy. You're obsessing over this vibe. You're obsessing over this song for your show that hasn't even yet been booked.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I've got this idea that I think obsession's really misunderstood by people, that we're all obsessed with discipline and motivation. The motivation's cool because it's kind of like relatively free discipline. Like, it makes you want to do the thing, and discipline is you making yourself do the thing. Like, that's Goggins and Jocko and getting up at 4:30am and spit and sawdust and willpower and stuff like that. But then there is this next level, which is obsession. An obsession is I can't not do the thing. Like, I'm unable to stop myself from doing it.

[B]

That has been something that is very present in my life for the longest time. I dropped out of college because of that feeling. And I. When I was. I went to a. I don't even know why I did this, but I was in high school. I went to a Catholic high school. I was a good student, you know, like near 90s, you know, something like that, whatever letter that is. But when it came time to apply for colleges, I just never did it. Like, you're supposed to do that in, like, November or something. And I just never did it because. And I don't. I couldn't even tell you why. I don't even know what my rationale was at the time. But then I. I lied to my parents and I said, yeah, I applied here and there, and I'm just waiting, like, just to put off hearing about it. And then I eventually just went. I told my parents I didn't get into any schools, and then I went, which is, like, insane if that actually happened, which, whatever. But I went to a community college. I went to a school called Queensborough Community College, and I did a semester there. And it was very hard for me because I. I just felt so strongly that it wasn't for me. And it bothered me that that's, like, a thing that a lot of people say, and I'm like, am I just one of those people that's like, oh, you know, school's just not for me? And it's kind of like, um. Because I didn't think I was better than it. Like, I. I still don't think that. And I think that it has its place for sure. Um, but there was something in me. There was like, a feeling of, like, I can't go back. Like, I can't. Like, I. And I don't have a plan. At that time, I was making some YouTube videos, but they were amounting to nothing, really. I enjoy doing it, but it wasn't like I thought, this is what I'm going to do. This was also in 2011, when there wasn't influencers. There wasn't even Instagram. There was. There was nothing. So the. The idea that you can make a career off of this, like, didn't really exist. So there wasn't, like, this Guiding Light of, like, I'm gonna do this. I was doing YouTube videos, and I wasn't getting paid any money to do them, but I did feel like Maybe if I grew this to a certain point, I could leverage the audience into, like, an audition for something. I don't know. Like, I wasn't really thinking, but I didn't necessarily want to be an actor. I just liked doing that at the time. But something was pushing me away. And I literally would drive to the school and sit in the car. Very dramatic. And I would just stare at the school. And I'm like, I literally just can't get myself to go. And going back to why I'm an insane person, there was one time where I literally had a notebook and I just wrote out like a. An interview that, like, Barbara Walters was doing with me where she was like, walking me around. She's like, so this is your college? Like, And I was like, thinking like that, like, I just want something so bad. I know I can't get it.

[A]

You didn't even know what it was.

[B]

No. Which is stupid.

[A]

That's very. That's really interesting. Right? Because you've got. You had ambition without direction.

[B]

Zero. I had a lot of passion and ambition, and it was like putting it on.

[A]

Your passion was for.

[B]

No.

[A]

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[B]

I think that there are people that probably have more passion than others because I do think there are people that are perfectly content with, you know, going to college, getting a job and like that's their life. And I think that's amazing. Like, I think that as long as you feel fulfilled, like you should do that.

[A]

They are very lucky. Yeah, they're very lucky. Because the alternative is that you need to contort yourself into this weird fucking shape.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Run all over the planet trying to work out who you are.

[B]

A part of me was afraid because I did have all that passion and I didn't know where to put it. I think that. I think that if you're lucky enough to find something that really lights a fire in you, like something that you Actually enjoy. Like, this is the thing. Like, you. It don't. For me, it's like, you need to do it. Like, I. I need to do that.

[A]

You can't not do it.

[B]

I can't. Like, I can't. I have to. And that's why, like, dropping out of college felt like that. Like, I was. That was the first time that I felt something. Like, it was almost. It had a physical reaction to me where it was like, dude, don't do that. And I. There was no plan. And mind you, I was always, like, a good student growing up, and I played sports and stuff, and I felt like there was a lot of. There was high expectations for me, and then I was not fulfilling that at all. And then I'm gonna go, well, I'm also dropping out of college, you know, and that was a lot of Ls

[A]

in a short space.

[B]

Oh, my God, dude, it is a lot of Ls. And there was only one time where I was like, man, I'm fucking this up bad. Like, maybe I'm just, like, full of shit. Like, you think do you have. Just because I have all this passion.

[A]

Oh, my ambition.

[B]

Exactly. It's like, bro, this counts for nothing. No one cares that you're passionate. Like, and you're waiting for what? Like, what are you waiting for? Like, what are you going to do? And then there was a time where I did have that realization of. Because when I was younger, I was a little more, like, arrogant about it in my head, where I was like, I'm going to find something. Like, I was, like, kind of sure, which. Not sure, but there was a moment where, like, all my friends are going to college and some of them away. Some of them are in the neighborhood. Some of them have jobs and whatever. And I'm literally doing nothing now because I dropped out of college. I don't even have a job at this point.

[A]

How did that feel?

[B]

Like a loser, dude. Like, I just. I. I literally felt like that was the first time that I ever told myself, like, yo, you're full of, dude. Like, you have all this passion, and, you know, you. I'm sitting in a car riding a

[A]

nice Barbara Walters interview.

[B]

Yeah. Like, what am I talking about?

[A]

With your mum and dad?

[B]

Yeah. Like, she'll be dead by the time this happens anyway. But, like, I was like, I was. You're sitting there writing that, and then a part of me is like, I'm upset with myself because I'm like, you told yourself the lie and you believed it. And I. I do believe it is Sort of like a lie. Because that could get you in trouble. And it would have got me in trouble too if I followed that passion. Because no matter what I was following that, I. I follow the excitement as far as, like, professionally is. I. And I think that's important, especially even now, if you ask me, like, what's your five year plan? I don't have one. I'm waiting for the excitement to appear. I'm at the point now where it's a little easier to do that because I can kind of sit back a little bit and sort of rest on my laurels and kind of make decisions and I could kind of float here. But if something pops up and that excites me, that's what I'm doing. And I have no idea. It could look totally different.

[A]

You know what it sounds like? It sounds like one of the things that you've really steered away from, at least when making your life decisions is obligation. I don't feel. Not like you're not, damn, dude, you're selling my dad. Well, like, you're not obliged to do something just because people expected you to, just because you were doing it previously, just because your parents might have wanted you to do it. Like, I understand the obligation comes with a lot of baggage. Fucking childhood trauma coming through your eyes.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

But I do know what you mean. I think that's true. Like a lot of people feel obligated to go and do something. They even feel obligated to keep moving, right? There's this sense of, oh, fuck. Like I can't just sit and wait or I can't just sit and think. And in some ways that's true, right? You shouldn't just be. Wish it, want it, do it, dream it, believe it, and not go and work for it in your way, through the light, through your life. Like that's going to result in you being on the couch until you get kicked out of your apartment.

[B]

I also, like, I have a deep desire to earn it. Like, I want to earn it and I want people to look at me and feel like he earned it. You know, I don't want people to feel like there was a shortcut or anything like that.

[A]

I don't think that anyone can look at the backlog of stuff that you've done and say that you haven't earned it. I'd like to think that the same thing is true for me as well.

[B]

But I, I feel that about things that haven't happened yet either. Like any, any sort of thing that pops up that I, that I will do. Like, I can tell you right now, I don't know the specifics, but my life moving forward will look very random. Like, there probably will be other projects that are, like, not podcasting, not a live show or whatever, that I'm like, I'm going to put my all into that or whatever. Like, I, I go with the excitement, and I want to be good at those things. Like, I want to. That's why I, I'm so willing to take criticism because I want to be good. Like, I want to be good. I want people to know that I'm trying really hard to do this thing if it excites me.

[A]

What do you think about the sort of current trend of people trying to be nonchalant?

[B]

That was such a British pronunciation. Nonchalant. I like that better, to be honest.

[A]

Nonchalant.

[B]

Nonchalant in what way do you mean?

[A]

Well, you're talking about. I want people to see me trying really hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Trying hard. Trying hard's kind of lame to a certain category of people, especially people on the Internet, which is why you exist.

[B]

It's. Everybody, like, thinks it's lame.

[A]

Yeah. So there's, There's a world at the moment that only ever talks in irony. Like, they only ever make ironic sentences and ironic statements. Nobody stands for something legitimately. They only ever stand against things or kind of mock stuff or suggest. It's kind of like the passive aggressive pushing of your own things. Well, you know, like, this thing's like, all right, I guess. Right. As opposed to, I am giving this my absolute fucking everything. In the uk, for instance, we have tall Poppy syndrome. People that try really hard, called Kenos. Too keen. You're too keen for this thing. You're too excitable. You'd get called fucking very American of you. That dude. Like, that really, like, it's enthusiasm's looked down on to a degree, especially if you come from a working class background, which is as scum class as I can be. Like, you kind of encouraged to not get too big for your boots. I must have heard that thousands of times. Don't get too big for your boots.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Don't have dreams that are too big.

[B]

The thing with me is, like, I, I, I realize that, but if you're people who are acting nonchalant about, especially about things that they are actually passionate about, it's just insecurity, like, manifesting in that way where it's like, I need to appear like, I'm not really trying, but I am trying or whatever. Like, I'm not insecure about those things. So I'm like, don't worry, I got them. But I'm not insecure about those things. So I'm willing to try really hard at them and fail and fall on my face or whatever. And it kind of excites me, too, that there's a lot of people that aren't willing to do that because it's like. Then it feels like I have a leg up on them because I'm willing to hit the ground super hard. Because when I hit the ground, like, then I know. Like, you slammed a door in my face. So I know, like, okay, I got these to choose from now. Like, at least I have a decision. Like, you made a final decision, like, it that failed. Then I can move on. I'm not nonchalant about it because I'm not even doing it for the perception. I'm doing it for me. And when I say that I want to earn it, it's not necessarily for outside validation. Like, I want to know when I go to sleep at night. Like, you worked hard, and you got that thing that feels really good. Like, that's an amazing feeling to know that I put my all into this thing. It started as an idea, I said it out loud. I worked hard to do it, and then it happened. That's an amazing feeling.

[A]

There's a quote from Mark Manson. He says, do hard shit not because it's fun, but because the win actually means something. You bled for it, you broke for it, you earned it. Easy wins are forgettable. Hard ones change you. That's the point.

[B]

Exactly. What is better than that? There is nothing better than that.

[A]

This is one of the things I. I think about the world of AI and how many people are maybe relying on assistance for their job or for their writing or their creative pursuits. And what it's doing is it's actually robbing you of the thing that you came here to get. Yes, the thing that you came here to get is the sensation of, I work, I did hard shit, and I got good.

[B]

I got good at it, and I

[A]

got good one rep at a time.

[B]

And, yeah, like, that's. That, to me, is like, the biggest payoff. When I could watch something like an old video, or I can watch, like, something from our first shows or just know whatever, and I'm just like, I'm better than that now, which is good.

[A]

Does anyone ever put together one of those. The timeline of Josh Santigo fucking, like, videos of. I'm gonna make it worse each time.

[B]

Piece of shit. I'm gonna try this Bullshit shit.

[A]

The neutronic, like, purposefully misquoting everything. Someone did.

[B]

Someone did a video, by the way. Sorry.

[A]

Thank you. Good. Get it in you. Someone did a video a little while, like, last week or something. It's really fucking good. And I watched it, and they went back and analyzed the first episodes I'd ever done on the podcast, and they said this line, and they were like, you might not think that this guy would go on to become anything in regards to a successful podcaster. I was like, it's true. But it was 1100 episodes ago, in 2018.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the northeast of the UK, in my old office in Newcastle.

[B]

You know, it's funny you actually bring that up, because this morning I got a random DM from a person and they did. Exactly. This is fucking weird, by the way, because now. You know what I'm saying? Someone. This has never happened to me, ever. I feel like I'm Ozimentalist right now, actually. But that exact thing happened to me for the first time ever. Someone sent me a screenshot of. It wasn't the first episode, but it was one of the first ones. And I titled it who the Fuck Is this Guy? And I talked about myself and what the podcast is going to be and things that I believe in or whatever. And the message that they left me was like, I just want to say that I've been a fan of yours for a really long time. And I just listened to this, and it's really cool to see that, you know, you've gone on to be successful and have some fame and this and that. But, like, this sounds like you. Like, you're still like, the same person there. And that is, like, the biggest compliment that I could get, because that's the whole point. Like, that's. That's what I want. That's, like, what I believed in. I believed that if I was authentic enough, then I could stand out. And I had the luxury of starting when I did because there wasn't a lot of people doing it. Now everyone's doing it. But it's hard to be authentic because you're constantly sort of inspired by other things that are happening on the Internet, if that makes sense.

[A]

I had the idea that if I could be authentic enough, it would work out. Like, what's that mean? If I could be authentic enough? Most people would say if I could come up with a novel enough idea, if I could be creative enough, if I could work hard enough, if I could find the right niche. You're saying the key. Competitive advantage, the key sort of fuel that you were optimizing for was authenticity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Well, for me, at the time, like, it was. I was making YouTube videos, and a lot of people were kind of doing the same thing. So that felt like the only way that I can stand out is if I do things sort of my way and I put my, like, kind of flair on it or whatever. I didn't want to. And the things that other people were doing felt lazy to me. So I was like, I'm not going to do that. I'll do some other stuff. I'll, you know, I'll. Experimental. I mean, by the way, whatever I tried to do sucked besides the point. But I. My thought was, like, if I can stay authentic to my voice, then I'll stand out because there's only one of me and there's only one of you. And I think that's true for anybody. Like, that ultimately is the goal there. When you see something new, it's exciting. You know, like when a new thing drops, people want it. It's a brand new thing. We haven't seen it before. So if you are authentic and you sort of are placed on a platform or in a, you know, a medium like this or something, and you're as authentic as you can be, you're going to stand out. Because guess what? There's a lot of other people that are just trying to be like the other ones who are already successful.

[A]

That is so fucking good. That's really, really good. No one can beat you at being you. No, Right. But the problem. Easiest job to just be you.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

No one can beat you at being you. But a lot of people are trying to be someone else.

[B]

Yes. And. And maybe that is because of some sort of insecurity and there's other stuff to impact there. But, like, if you can get to a place where you're okay with yourself and you know yourself and you can apply that into. I mean, for me, I'm specifically talking about, like, content creation and, you know, that sort of thing. But if you can do that, I think that that pays dividends in my field. Like, what I do. Like, I think that makes you stand apart from everyone else. Because if you are trying to dress and sound and make videos that look like. If you're trying to make the same videos as Mr. Beast, like, what do you. What do you think that you're just going to be Mr. Beast? Like, it already exists and he's the guy and he has a specific formula. I think that he also says a lot of, like, smart Things about, like how to create viral moments, and he actually gives really good advice in those ways. But thinking that you're going to make it because you're just going to copy him, I think is. It will hurt you ultimately.

[A]

You know, the interesting thing with that is I've met Jimmy once for two minutes, so I don't really know him. Let's say that MrBeast isn't being MrBeast. Let's say that he's performing in some way. His insecurity is driving him. Let's just say that that's the case. Regardless of whether he's being authentic or not. You trying to be him still won't work.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which is the interesting thing. Right. Even if you try to model someone who's being authentic, which not many people are, by definition, that still won't work because it's still inauthentic to you. Now, there's things that you can learn. It's not as if you learned how to video a podcast or put together a live show without taking inspiration. You said that you watched Ben Affleck and Matt Damon get this thing, and they've got ways of speaking and ways of working and they've a philosophy behind things. Oh, I love what they did with Good Will Hunting, and I love the way that they did this thing, but I don't really like that so much. And then you take it and it becomes a part of you as opposed to you trying to be it. Yeah, but, yeah, just the authenticity as the biggest competitive advantage you have I think is a really interesting idea.

[B]

I really do think that's true. And I also. I'm not trying to, like, I'm not. I'm not even trying to be like the best. I'm just trying to be like me with learning more, with taking something from. Anytime we've had conversations and we get into these types of discussions, I can take some stuff from there. So I can take things from you and be like, well, I'm taking that and I'm keeping it. But in order to do that, I think that you have to be at a certain place with yourself where you're willing to tell yourself that you're wrong. You could think something so much, and then you have an argument with someone and it's very hard to be like, oh, fuck, I'm wrong. That person's right, and completely change your point of view. I like to think sometimes I can do that, and that helps tremendously. Like, I really think that everyone has something to offer. Like, everybody has something that will help you, whether it be. And it could come in the form of, like, horrible advice. And then like, that's.

[A]

I don't want to do that exactly.

[B]

But you can learn from everyone. But making it. I think it's a mistake to only look at people that are, like, your heroes as, like, the people you need to follow. There's a lot of people around you that you can get things from that are going to help you. People who have no. Don't know anything about your job or anything. Like, my mom will say something that I'm like, oh, okay. And it doesn't. It's not always applied to the job, but it's also like my life, my actual personality and the way that I approach life. The only way to grow is to completely. Is to constantly admit when you're wrong. In my opinion, that feels like I try to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong in my life. I truly try to do that because that's what I can control. I can't really control how other people are going to react or what's going to happen or whatever. But how. When something bad happens to you, to me, I think that there's an opportunity there when something bad happens to you, where I can learn from this or I can take something from it, or I could just put up a wall and be like, wow, that person's fucked up. But, like, what is your involvement in that? You know, like something. An easy example is if you're in a relationship and you get cheated on. It's like, well, what the fuck? Like, she's a. She's whatever. But, like, what is your involvement? Actually, and I'm not saying that let's. Let's absolve her, you know, shouldn't have fucked Steve for sure. But, like, what could you get from that situation? Are you capable of getting to the point of, like, even though that I was the safest option and I was taking care of her and I was nice to her. I never cheated on her. I never scream at her. I clean the house and I do whatever. Maybe you're boring, though, and. And that's fine.

[A]

Or maybe you picked wrong.

[B]

Or that's fine.

[A]

Maybe you weren't discerning in who you chose.

[B]

Sure. But like, it's on you in some capacity. Because even if you are, let's say, like a boring guy, or it's like super vanilla and they're just. It feels like every day is predictable and whatever, and she got bored. It's okay to admit that, like, okay, that's something that happened to me. It doesn't mean that you have to change, because if you don't want to, you don't have to. But at least know your involvement while still, you can still go like fuck you. But then you have to move on

[A]

with your life and learn from it as well.

[B]

It already happened. Like there's no reason to not think about it and get something from it.

[A]

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[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's the reason people would rather get angry at someone else than get angry at themselves. And a lot of the time we have betrayed ourselves in situations you have, it's like, you know, I, I, maybe I should have fucking paid a little bit more attention. Maybe I should have seen the red flags earlier. Maybe I should have heeded the advice from my business partner with that deal or whatever it might be. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person. Not at all. It doesn't mean that you're less than or irredeemable or that things are broken. But it does mean that you've got something to learn. And kind of like, if you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn that thing, it's already shit. You might as well try and get something good out of it.

[B]

That's why, like, everyone looks back at them like, well, I don't know about everyone. I don't know how you did in school, but like, a lot of people that I know have like, looked back in like high school or whatever and be like, bro, I wish I, like, tried harder because then I could, you know, blah, blah, blah. It's sort of like one of those things where it's like, you're already presented the situation, the bad thing already happened. What can you get from it? Because you could walk away with something that could help you. And even if you've done the work and there's a realization of like, you know what? I'm just not responsible, that's okay too.

[A]

That's also a takeaway, which is a lesson for you to take. But if you don't, if you don't do the self assessment, you know the word that's coming to mind as you say, it's alchemy. Like turning something that's kind of useless and shitty into something that's really valuable. And sometimes what you have in the beginning versus what you get out is like way smaller. But this is already shitty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you might as well try and work a little bit of alchemy on this thing to convert it into something that's a little bit more beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I feel that way about everything. I mean, every single time. Like, you know, me and Greg work creatively on a lot of different projects and I, I, I think that we're very capable people. I mean, I just talked all that shit and I could do anything. But I, we've, we've run into massive roadblocks where people are like, no, but that's good because it's like, and it's funny because it's like we were really confident about that, then we got our ass whooped. But that's, I, that's where I like to be because, you know, this sounds so corny and it's like over said in so many ways, but it's, it's Just very true. That, like, when you do fail and when you get your ass whooped, there's. It's. It's good because you just closed a possible door, and now you have less doors to choose from. Like, there's more of a chance of it happening now because you just learned something. Someone slammed the door in your face. Turn around. There's other ones, you know, like. And you can learn from that. And most of the time, especially with creative projects, you will get advice on why it did not work or why it's not good. And you try to find a reason. Like, okay, I'm okay with it being wrong. I don't need to defend this thing, and I don't need to be, like, 100% right. Like, no, fuck you, this is a good script or whatever. Like, find out why it's bad. Find out why it's bad. And then, like, if you really care about that thing, you will find those

[A]

answers, or else you're just going to keep making the same mistake over and

[B]

over or you won't make another thing ever again. And you'll keep holding and being like, I swear to God, this thing's going to get greenlit.

[A]

And you're like, dude, oh, it's the guy. If Coach had only put me in, then I would have got my NFL contract.

[B]

If I didn't blow out of my knee. If I didn't blow out my knee.

[A]

But if you keep running around Austin Lake, you'll be fine. Dude, you mentioned your mum a bunch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're still super close with your mom, right? Millennials and Gen Z basically cutting off their boomer parents at record rates and calling it healing, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What do you think about that? Like, families never felt more optional. And I think that's worth interrogating.

[B]

That's crazy. You know, I. I don't know if I have a

[A]

unique or niche, abnormally good relationship.

[B]

Yeah. So, like, I think I'm probably in the minority. But my. I'm very close with my family. And, you know, like, there. There's just, like, conversations, like, my. My financial advisor has, like, said stuff, like sometimes being like, yo, just. You know, a lot of people, like, when you're doing the will or you're doing whatever, like, you should be careful because a lot of people like what? My family has never asked me for anything. They're only supportive people. Especially my mother has never asked me for anything. No one has ever asked me for anything. Like, even my friends, like, they're just supportive, and they're not supportive in the way that they're going to show up with their face painted and shit. But they'll, they'll be supportive. You know, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing that would call for that anyway, to be fair. But that would be nice for them to show up while I'm recording a podcast and just stand in the corner. But yeah, my, my, my family, I'm very close to them. I can't imagine that when I see things like online or you see it like in a movie sometimes, or you kind of hear it that, like someone has a brother that they don't talk to, I'm like, that's outrageous. Like, I would never let that fly. Like, I would fly across the world and kick my sister's door in and be like, you're gonna fucking sit here and talk to me and we're gonna figure this thing out, you know? Like, that's, that's how we deal with issues like there's home invasion. Yeah. Kidnapping, whatever I have to do. Really. I could do anything. I kidnap.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I, Yeah, like, that's how we kind of deal with problems when there's something going on or whatever. Like, no one talks shit behind people's backs. In my family, it's like you're going to hear it because it's going to come out right now. And then it usually just results in like a very easy thing that you can kind of get over. There's, there's rarely a long lasting, under the table grudge or anything like that because someone would just call it out. It's like, what are you still mad? Like, it'll just, you know, like, it's just kind of like that we were all just like very close.

[A]

That is the most queen's approach to something.

[B]

What? Are you still mad? The. But my mom, like, my mom is great. Both my parents are great. My, my father lives in North Carolina now and my mom is, is in New York. So there, there was an age where I think, you know, and I don't want to speak for parents because I don't have children, but I think that there's probably in my life it was important that my mom is my mom. She's always my mom and we can't be friends, but we, but there was a shift in she, she, she stopped trying to be like this mother that's going to make decisions for me, you

[A]

know, like, what age did that happen?

[B]

I don't even, I can't really pinpoint it. I would say it's probably younger Than

[A]

when did you notice it?

[B]

Oh, I didn't notice it until, like, maybe five, six years ago. That. That. That was something that, like, meant a lot.

[A]

You've just been allowed to freewheel at some point in the past, and I didn't notice it.

[B]

Yeah, like, just giving me the space to make mistakes and probably do things that she wouldn't do. And, like, she knows I'm about to do them and just kind of like, all right, you know, like. And there's a. There's a trust in that. She doesn't look at me with like, all right, good luck, idiot. Like, it's kind of like there's. There's a trust that I'm going to let you be creative. Like, you have to let your children kind of like, be who they are. Like, you can't make the same kid over and over again. Where it's like, this is how you raise a child. They do this. You have to do that. This one has to do that, too. And whatever. Like, children are very different, obviously. And I think that if people, you know, maybe this one's really creative, this one's really into whatever, and this one's really into that, and you kind of have to notice those things and let them do that. And I really believe that my. My. My mother, specifically, because in the years where I started to realize what was going on, we kind of had that relationship where it felt like her guard came down a little bit as a mother, and she, like, let me into her life a little more, so I was, like, able to let her into. And then it felt more friendly. But she always says she's like, we can't be friends, though. She always says that.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose that's. So I'm thinking about what that moment must be like for parents, you know, because you've raised this kid for me. I'm an only child, right. So it's even more fucking pressure, even more vigilance, even more everything. The entire genetic lineage rests on the fucking shoulders. This one guy who's still childless, and they let you out into the world, and they've spent all of this time keeping you alive and raising you and wiping your ass and then still wiping your ass when you're an adult, just metaphorically. And now you're out there, and then at some point they need to go. I actually think either I don't know if he's good without me, but I'm gonna let him make mistakes, or I think he's good without me and I'm not needed anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And both of those situations, the first one, the first one's probably even harder because the compulsion to step in to. If you watch your kid run toward a table with a sharp edge, you go, hup. Yeah. And I pick them up. And you at 19, as you were about to make your first investment, or at 23, as you're about to get into a long term, long distance relationship with someone that your mom knows is bad for you, there's always a hup. I'll pick you up and stop you from banging your head on the table. Right. There's always that impulse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And at some point you need to go, I think he can handle the headbang.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's actually good for him to learn from it. But that must be. Those two things must be really, really hard for parents.

[B]

I imagine, like that would be. And I'm sitting here as a person who tries to control every single part of his fucking life that when I have children I'm going to be like, yeah, yeah, sure, go ahead, do it. I'm fine. Like, I, you know, that's probably much easier said than done. Yeah. I mean, that's impossible. I can't even imagine like having a child and feeling like I'm completely responsible for this, this thing's life. And then it's, it's going to come to a certain point where you have to just completely walk away and be like, I am no longer the, the coping mechanism.

[A]

You're not in charge.

[B]

Because then you. And because then it becomes enabling in a way. Or you're like hindering your child by being like, I'm always going to be there for. It's like definitely they have to feel a little alone like that their decisions are like on them and they have to deal with the repercussions. You can't fix everything, obviously. But yeah, I don't know.

[A]

That's why a lot of people talk university. I'm friends with guys that are largely self taught in a lot of different things. They went to university for a thing and then have found success doing the opposite thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the lesson that they've taken away from that is university's bullshit. And with the Internet and especially now, AI, you can teach yourself anything you want at way faster pace and follow your passions and change and all the rest of it. But I think one of the biggest takeaways from going to uni, for me, I was at uni for five years and then stayed in the same city for another eight was moving out of the house and living on your own, with other people that you kind of thrust into this situation. You just need to make it work. Unless you stop, obviously. But for the most part, stuff's still on a set of train tracks. As opposed to, I'm gonna move in with my friends and then quickly gonna stop. There's more guardrails. It's like, well, I'm here for a purpose. And if I don't like this halls of residence, I can just go to the hall manager and say, I wanna move to a different flat. Like, there's a degree of support there, but what it teaches you is, okay, I actually both the parents and the kids are kind of. It's another umbilical separation, right? It's another cutting of that cord. And this time it's geographically a little bit, sometimes it's far. But that I think is. Can be really important. I certainly know for me, only child, very insular, quite introverted. Family life, that was a huge changing point. Like, I grew up, my level of socialization and understanding of the world like, tripled by the time I was 21. Right from 18. It was insane.

[B]

It's the same reason why it's, like, important to put very young children in school. Like in like pre K or something. It's like they learn socialization. It's kind of the same, but on a different level, obviously, like, going to college and like, now you're on your own, you're around a bunch of kids and you're going to be like, living by yourself for the first time and, you know, for all the reasons that you just said. But it's funny how that, like, kind of comes around again.

[A]

Dude, I saw this tweet earlier on today. You're not autistic. You just work from home and it's making you weird. I wonder if I can use the fact that I'm an only child as an excuse.

[B]

Dude, I'll tell you when I was. When I moved into my first real apartment, because I had an apartment that I just like, filmed stuff at. And it wasn't really like a real apartment, but then my first real apartment, when I moved into that one, I felt so weird. Like, it felt like I'm never. I bought like a little bench and some weights and stuff. And then I quickly threw that out because I was like, I need to

[A]

get a gym membership.

[B]

Well, yeah. Well, then I was like, I gotta. I was like, I gotta leave this apartment because I'm working here. I live here now. I'm gonna work out here. I'm not leaving here, like, I'm not leaving. Like, I'm nuts. I'm like walking around and I'm, you know, whatever. It was just. It's so bad to do that. I got a gym membership at a place like a half an hour away just so I can like drive and go.

[A]

We got it. We gotta talk about that insight that we came up with last night that if you're a guy who doesn't have a girlfriend in the house after 7pm you kind of go a bit insane. Dude, what do you do?

[B]

I, I could tell you I have a friend who is single and lives on his own now. And I just get like random headstand pictures. I'm like, are you doing headstands? Like, what are you doing? You're stretching. Like it's 8:30. What are you stretching for? You're getting like, how hard do you go to bed? Like, it's time for sleep soon. Like, what are you doing? Like, it's like random things like that. I think I asked him recently, I was like, what do you do all day? He's a very busy guy. I don't want to take away. But like, during those hours it's like, how do you entertain yourself? Because at this point I don't know how to do that. When like my fiance leaves, I'm kind of like, what the hell do I do now? Like, there's no one here. Like, I just kind of like walk around. I like clean shit and then I just like, there's not much to do. Like, I'm like, oh, this is kind of boring. Am I gonna go for a walk? I don't know.

[A]

You find yourself building weird hobbies. So yeah, I was leaving the house last night to go to dinner with you because you're an insane person and decided to have dinner at 7:30pm which for me is like, is that not fucking late?

[B]

What are they talking about?

[A]

That's pretty fucking late. That's pretty late.

[B]

Is this an Austin thing?

[A]

That's not late. That's fucking 7:30 is late. Okay, we're split 50, 50 in the room. 7:30? Yeah. Well, you was on fucking eating. So I'm leaving the house and his girlfriend's in Costa Rica. He looks at me and he looked really sad and he came up and he whispered and he was like, I don't know what to do.

[B]

I was like, where are you going?

[A]

I don't know what to do. Like puppy dog eyes. He's like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, george, it's fine. You'll do. I don't know what, you'll read stuff or whatever. And I got back and he'd written all of this stuff and he had post it notes everywhere. So he was doing headstands. Yeah, he'd done his equivalent of doing headstands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then at 10:30pm, just 11:00 clock after I got back from dinner, I must have heard him sneeze 15 times in a row.

[B]

What the hell was he doing?

[A]

Fucking 15 times in a row. This is agitating to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How annoying must that be? If you're the sort of per. What's the most number of times that you've ever sneezed in a row?

[B]

I've never gotten close to 15. I think you die if you do that. Yeah, I think I've done like five good ones. And then everyone tells you to shut the fuck up. You get tenses.

[A]

Imagine 15.

[B]

15, bro, 15. I mean, I'm kicking this guy out of my house.

[A]

Get the fuck out. I know you wrote those post it notes earlier on and you've been lonely tonight, but it does not excuse you sneezing 15 times.

[B]

15's crazy. Is he dead?

[A]

I actually haven't seen him today. Maybe.

[B]

Yeah, he's probably dead. Dude, you should probably check on him. Doesn't. It isn't like a. There was like an old like thing. It's like if you sneeze, you're like hard stops. I'm like 15.

[A]

Ask ChatGPT. If you sneeze, does your heart stop

[B]

or something like that?

[A]

Fucking wait for this.

[B]

The AI is going to be like, what idiot asks that question?

[A]

No, what does happen is sneezing briefly changes the pressure inside your chest. That pressure change can slightly affect blood flow and momentarily alter your heart rhythm. Which is why some people feel like their heart skips a beep at the heartbeat.

[B]

Oh, so he's altering his blood flow like crazy in there.

[A]

But the worst thing was I thought it was over. And then there would be a 30 second break and then it would come back. I'm like, fucking what?

[B]

Oh, is he like a loud. He's a loud.

[A]

He's a real loud one. I honestly got a big nose.

[B]

I would prefer that. I hate people who sneeze like inside their bodies. It scares me, dude. Where it's like, I'm like, yo, you're gonna hurt your neck or something. Like your eyes are gonna explode out of your head. Like, chill. Like, I have a friend that does that. I'm like, yo, just open your mouth. Like just.

[A]

It all of this can be fixed.

[B]

It just comes out naturally. If you just, like, let your lips flap.

[A]

Do you think?

[B]

Poof.

[A]

I wonder if there's a personality trait, if there's a commonality between the sort of people who keep the sneeze in.

[B]

Oh, man. What is. I mean, it's not really like a learned thing, I guess. You just kind of like.

[A]

It's weird when you're driving. I get scared when I'm driving, bro.

[B]

First of all, you want to talk about that? My dad, by the way, I'm convinced he's allergic to the sun. I don't know what's going on. But when he would. Sometimes he would drive me to school when I was in high school. We would get in the car. First thing he does is before he starts the car, he would take his key and clean out his ears with the key. Right. Is this just the guy he is? I. I don't know that. And he's deaf. He's not deaf, but he might as well.

[A]

Definitely deaf after sticking the cocky in his ear.

[B]

If he went to the doctor, they'd be like, you're deaf. But he. Because he can't hear, but he's been shoving car keys in his ears like that. Then he would start the car, right? That would take 10 minutes because it's a. You know, it's a completely fucked up minivan. And then we would be driving on the highway, and he would. He would let off 10. On the highway. We're going 60, 70, and he's sneezing, and I'm looking at him like, my guy.

[A]

We're.

[B]

We're drifting. Okay. We're not in a middle lane right now. Like, we're on the. We're on a highway. You got to chill the out. And this. So I was scared for my life mostly when I was going to high school because of that. Yeah. And there was a time where he used to drive around in a. Like a work van because he. He was like a. He worked construction. He would throw us in the back. There wasn't any seats back there. It was just me, my brother. Yeah. Yeah. And there's tools. There's, you know, two by fours and wood.

[A]

And there's a washing machine.

[B]

There's. Yeah, there's like a mitre saw there. And I'm like. I'm sitting on the edge of the miter saw, hoping that he doesn't hit the brakes because the thing's gonna go right to my spine. But this is, like, what he would do. And I really believe that he's allergic to the sun. Like, he's an interesting guy. His whole tooth came out one time. The entire tooth? The entire tooth. Like, if you Google cartoon tooth, like the ones on commercials that have, like, a toothbrush and dance or they got like, the fangs or whatever that came out of his mouth. How does that even happen to a person?

[A]

When. What was he doing?

[B]

Sleeping? He wasn't even chewing gum. He wasn't doing anything. He just popped out of his mouth.

[A]

You know what? He should have done headstands before he went to bed.

[B]

I went to church. I prayed. Headstands. Yeah. No, he's not doing a headstand. Not now.

[A]

That's how hard he sleeps.

[B]

Dude, he. His tooth popped out in his sleep, which is insane. And then he just like.

[A]

Usually when that happens, he must grind his teeth. He's got to grind his teeth. He's got to be, bro. I mean, it's either that or the same demons that got Tucker Carlson in his sleep.

[B]

How strong is his jaw? Is it like the fucking gorilla's jaw or someone walking in there and hitting him with a bat in the mouth?

[A]

Over a bunch of years, I think you can pretty easily, like, crack a tooth by grinding your teeth.

[B]

But the tooth was intact. It was a tooth. It was just a tooth. I'm looking at a tooth, actually. Yeah, like, it just. His body was just like.

[A]

Was it a molar?

[B]

I'm not a dentist. I don't know if it was a molar. No, it was an incisor. Whatever the fuck that shit is called. I have no idea. What is that gonna do for you, also knowing which tooth it was? Which tooth was it? Oh, okay.

[A]

Makes. Makes so much more sense.

[B]

It wasn't one of his front tooth, though. Like, you could hide it. It was. It was one of the. The back ones. Maybe it was a molar, but it popped out. And usually you're like, oh, shit, I should go to the dentist because I'm probably dying. That's what I would think. And then he just put it in his sock drawer and he went back to sleep. And then we never really talked about it until now. Now he's going to see this thing and he's going to remember, like, yeah,

[A]

you're fucking missing the teeth.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, shit.

[A]

Yeah, I need to get that out my sock drawer and put it back.

[B]

Oh, fuck. Yeah. Where is that thing? We kept it, though. We kept it. My parents used to keep our teeth. Your parents do that? Is that an American thing or British thing?

[A]

I think that's a British thing.

[B]

They kept your teeth well.

[A]

Yeah, because our teeth look like cigarettes.

[B]

Yeah. You guys have crazy teeth, bro. It's crazy how some of the like the stereotypes, like I heard someone from someone from Europe was like, I saw a tick tock of being like walking around an American airport and it's like this is like insane. Like everyone just like looks what you think in America was like an overweight person with Shake Shack in their hand or something like that. But then the UK thing is like, oh, they got bad teeth and beans on toast or whatever. First of all, beans on toast. Low key. I like it.

[A]

High key.

[B]

High key though. Teeth are not good. Not that I have the best teeth

[A]

in the world either still.

[B]

But they got some stuff going on over there for sure.

[A]

Not good.

[B]

What is that? Is that just like.

[A]

I don't know. We've got nationalized healthcare, so I think the fact that you can get the number one reason for bankruptcy in America is medical bills is like fucking insane.

[B]

But just don't pay it easy. Boom. Not paying it.

[A]

I think that's how you go bankrupt.

[B]

I'm not. But you're not getting the money from me. Where are you getting it?

[A]

But then do they not come and take stuff from you like your house and your dog?

[B]

My dog? People are getting murdered if they try to take my dog. Dude, the shotgun blast is coming through the fucking door. You're not even going to get in here.

[A]

Okay, I can see the diplomacy that has gotten you through your career so far between kidnapping your sister and kicking a door down and it's passion.

[B]

It's just passion.

[A]

Yeah, dude, it's my passion. It's my ambition without direction.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

When I've got an Academy Award, I can shoot everybody I want in the face.

[B]

No, no, no. I mean, yeah, some of the medical bills are just insane.

[A]

But the dental thing I don't get. Because we have free dental.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So everybody goes to get their teeth looked after. I don't. Maybe the dentists in the UK are not good. I don't know. There'll be a dentist listening that'll say. Well, actually it's because of.

[B]

Maybe it's just, you know, just where you are in the world. I have no idea.

[A]

Shit weather gives you bad teeth. I don't know, just sometimes some fucking weird. Jared, you ever considered that you might have a drinking problem? I don't consider a lot, Chris. Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co last night. But they're non alcoholic and that's not a problem. Sorry, man, I just kept Chugging. Wait for the regret to creep in.

[B]

Never happened.

[A]

See, most people like Jared don't want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write off. And that is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing company. They make the best NA brews on the planet. You can find Athletic Brewing Co's best selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you. Or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Right now. Get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below or heading to athleticbrewing.com ModernWisdom or using the code ModernWisdom at checkout that's athleticbrewing.com ModernWiry at ModernWisdom at checkout near Beer terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company Fit for all times. Bottoms up. All right, so you said you've got these sort of two sides of your brain that are working, and you've got the business side and then you've got the creativity side. How do you protect the creative side of your brain when the business side never stops demanding attention?

[B]

Fortunately for me, I don't really need to do that for a long time. What?

[A]

You did have to do both of those things?

[B]

No, no. I'm saying I don't have to separate them. I can be creative and that helps my business. I'm not good at multitasking. So if I, like, if I'm as much as I will be, like, I'm listening when I'm texting someone and someone's talking to me, I can't. I can't even hear anything. And I have this thing too, with like, noise. Like, I think it's called misophonia. But it's like if there's like a couple of sounds going on, I just can't. That's so distracting.

[A]

That's me too.

[B]

I can't read unless I'm stunning. Huh.

[A]

I just thought. Yeah, I thought that was being an autistic only child.

[B]

Again, it could be. I don't know. But I mean, someone getting.

[A]

So when there's noises going on, you're super easily distracted and you can't focus.

[B]

It would really bother, like, certain noises, like, really bother me. Not, not certain specific noises. But when they're like, if the TV is on and someone's phone is playing like a video really loud, like I am, I can't even focus. Or if I'm watching a movie and the AC is on, even I, like, I got to shut it off. Like, I can't like it. I just can't, like, focus. The reason why I say that is because if I had to separate those two things, I don't really think I could. I have worked normal jobs before, obviously, and once the, like, the. The creative thing is so intense with me that there are times where I had an idea one time for an app. I don't even know what's going on. I don't know why I. I didn't actually want to do it, but sometimes when I. An idea will pop into my head, and I. And I have to flush it out right now, and. And I sent it to Greg, and he was like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. And I was like, yeah, I just needed to get it off. But I. I was driving to the gym, and I had this idea, and I was like, ooh, that sounds like a good idea. Like, I'm gonna start whatever. And I was like, in my car doing it. And then I got so distracted, like, I have to go home so that I could finish this. So I left, and I went home, and I didn't even get into the gym. I just turned my car around and went home, and I typed this whole thing out, and I was like, yeah. And I sent it to Greg, and I was like, what do you think about this? He's, like, so stupid. And I'm like, cool, I'm going to the gym.

[A]

Go back to the gym.

[B]

But that's how intense it is for me. Like, I can't multitask and feel like. Like, once I'm creatively inspired by something, like, it has to happen now. Like, there are so many times where I don't know how this happens, but I'll wake up first thing and write, like, a joke or something. I wrote most of my set for MSG that I did at MSG at that time. Like, waking up and being like, oh, I don't even know what that's about, because it wasn't about necessarily about my dream.

[A]

Okay. Design the line between sleeping and waking. I can give you at least a bit of science that might explain it.

[B]

Oh, love this.

[A]

So the brainwave that you want to get into when you're in flow state is one step away from what you're in when you're sleeping. So a lot of engineers throughout history would. And Nobel Prize winners would sit on seats with ball bearings or something metal in their hand over a plate, and they'd be thinking about an idea, but they'd be relaxing and they'd have their eyes closed and as they were drifting off and drifting off and drifting off. And then their hand would open as they fell asleep and they'd drop the loud thing into the plate and it would clang. And then they would get up to try and work on the problem.

[B]

Fucking no way.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That makes so much sense.

[A]

That's how a bunch of the biggest problems in science have been solved.

[B]

What?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Damn, I'm start paying attention in the fucking morning now.

[A]

Well, there's another light. So the guys from Flow Research Collective who work on the science of flow, they try to engineer people to get into flow states more easily. The number one hack, the easiest hack for anybody to get into flow, begin working within 30 seconds of waking up.

[B]

Dude, that is fascinating to me because that's literally like I had no explanation for it because I don't even remember the dream that I had, but I woke up and I immediately had like a joke. Like, I don't like, but I would write it down.

[A]

Do you think you'd have gone to bed thinking about maybe something to do with msg? Like it would have been a part of your evening, maybe, or it's just in the back of your. Well, you care about it. What you're doing is you're allowing your subconscious to come through at least a little bit. But yeah, that line between sleeping and waking, if you're struggling with an idea, I mean, that's why people say it's. All the cliches are kind of true, which is sleep on it. Yeah, sleep on it. Sleep on it. See how you feel in the morning. And a lot of the time you've consolidated your memories and your thoughts from yesterday, last night, and now it's the morning and you've kind of got it in a new perspective. There you go. Wow, you use in science, dude, Honestly, that is fascinating.

[B]

I'm stealing that.

[A]

Take it, take it. Put it in the pot.

[B]

Wasn't going to ask.

[A]

There's a line that I fucking love, which is, you can't white knuckle creativity. That I think when you try and force it, it almost never comes out. Like your best ideas, your best jokes. Have you ever. Can you ever remember a time when you've tried to really force a piece of creativity and it's come through because for me, it never happens. No, it's like an erection. The harder you try for it, the more it runs away.

[B]

Runs away.

[A]

It does run away from you.

[B]

It's a good metaphor. Yeah, I am horrible at that especially. It's like okay, I'm gonna set aside

[A]

time, and I'm being creative.

[B]

I can't do it without someone's help. I think that Greg's probably better at that because we work, like, creatively on a lot of things, but he's also very good at prompting me. If I can get a prompt or I can get something like a seed of an idea, then I'm in and we can start doing this right now. But for me to go from zero to a creative thought, like, that's always been very difficult for me.

[A]

Riffing is significantly easier.

[B]

Insanely. Insanely. Yeah. That is better.

[A]

I have never been in a writer's room really for much, but for Newtonic, we do skits and sketches and stuff for the different ads and new flavor releases and things like that. And then we've done some for my tour announcements. And I didn't realize that what we were doing was sitting in a writer's room. Right. I'm aware that this has been done for, like, fucking a hundred years. And people realize that if you come in with an idea and you have a bunch of people who are all working on the same thing at the same time, you go, why don't we. No, no. Well, what if we. And you bounce that around. But it doesn't just need to be constrained to people that are making movies.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It can be anybody in a team. Okay, let's just come in with some ideas and talk about what the fuck's going on. And if you've got one person that's at least a bit diligent, the person who's got a shit ton of creativity kind of gets jumping off points. I don't know about you, but I get really excitable, enthusiastic when stuff like that. I'm like, ooh, ooh, yeah, yeah. And then. But it does need that. And it's like rolling a boulder down a hill. Just needs that push at the start. But I'm really bad at pushing it. I'm really fucking good at rolling down a hill.

[B]

Yeah. And sometimes all it takes is a question or, like, even the worst idea I've ever heard to be like, no, this. Like, it's like I just can't go from 0 to 100. Like.

[A]

No, 0 to 1.

[B]

0 to 1. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[A]

And then 1 to 100. Piece piss.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, it's just. It's one of those things that, like, I just need to be sort of prompted or whatever because I. I can, like, kind of put things off. And part of that, I think, is kind of, like, I. When there's pressure, I feel like I can perform. And I. Like, if there's pressure, like, I'd rather that be on me because I feel like, okay, I'm. We're gonna live. I'll. I can live and die by, like, my decisions or whatever, but I just need that, like, that little push. Like, if it's up to me, like, it's all through school or whatever, like, I'm up the night before, like, finishing things and whatever. Like, I can't get ahead of it because I don't know, Like, I mean, I think this is a horrible, like, way to be. Like, you could stack things and kind of get ahead on those things. Like, now it's different. I mean, professionally, it's. It's a little easier to. Like, I've. I've had a lot of practice, but it's not natural to me. I've had to work at it, like, very. Like, I've had to work on it a lot to get to the point where I can come up with, like, ideas out of thin air. I would say an overwhelming majority of any sort of creative decision or thing that I've ever made in my life has come at, like, out of nowhere. Like, it kind of just enters your brain. But if we're, like, having a conversation about, you know, we're. We're doing the. The new tour at the end of the year, and it's like, well, we have to create a brand new show. And I won't just do that. I have to have Greg be like, so we need a new show. Here's what I was thinking. Like, an idea. Like, hey, how. What do you think about this as an idea? And then magically I'll have four ideas, and then I'll be able to be like, okay, you know, whatever. Like, I need. Like, that is where I. It, like, unlocks ideas that are probably in there, but I can't start the conversation for some reason. Also, Greg and. And Frank love to say that. Well, everyone. They love to say that. Like, there is. Sometimes they'll have an idea, and then a week later I'll say their idea and act like it's mine. So. And they're like, oh, yeah, no, no one said that. No big deal. I'm like, wait, you want someone to say that? Because I'm. I'm like. When someone says something, I'm like, okay. I'm like, really taking it in, and I can't do two things at once. So I'm, like, walking around with it and not actively Thinking about it, but, like, it's there. So by the time it comes back, I've already forgotten the origin, and it's like, I've just been lost in the idea or something, and now it just comes out and people are like, yeah, fucking said that. I'm like, okay, sorry. It's a great idea.

[A]

Sorry. Yeah, don't take yourself too seriously, but do take the work seriously.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, that's. It's. It's similar to what I was saying before, where you have to be humble. Like, don't take yourself too seriously. I mean, especially me at the end of the day, like, the. Am I doing? I'm like, you know, I'm not changing lives here. Like, I'm trying to be funny, trying to be entertaining. I'm doing a podcast with my friend that I've known the longest, and I have, like, a very. You know, it's. It's demanding, but, like, it's. It's a fun job ultimately. And, like, my job is to have fun. And. And I do take it very seriously, especially at this point, because I think that a lot of people, from what I've seen, like our fans, they get a lot. A lot from it. It helps them escape things. I don't necessarily feel that part because that's hard to imagine that I could be that for someone, Even though I can very much imagine other people being that for me. I can't imagine that. So I. I take it very seriously because I. I want to earn it. I want to be good at something. I want other people in the space to respect the things that I've done and the approach and those sort of things. But at the same time, I'm not over here like, yo, I'm changing the world, or I'm doing whatever, and I don't. I don't know that I'll ever have that, to be honest with you. I mean, I. I just don't. I don't think that helps anybody. To take yourself super seriously and act like, you know, just arrogant about their decisions. Like, even when you get the thing that you've been working for for so long, like, now's not the time to be like, I told you, because that also feels like, did you do that in spite of someone? Like, I'm not doing anything in spite of somebody, or because I'm insecure and I need to appear a certain way to other people. Like, this is for me. I want to do it, and I enjoy doing it. So that's my motivation. Like, I'm trying to just Enjoy my life. And I'm trying to help as many people as I can. Truly. Like, that's truly what I'm trying to do. That's it. And it's very simple. And I'm completely content in that. And I'll try to find new ways to do that. I believe that I can find new ways to do that. And that's it. And it's very, also very important for me to make sure that everyone is happy while we're doing it, because our job is to have fun and to entertain other people. But in order to do that, you need to be happy. Right? I can't have you be disgruntled. I can't have you feel like. And also like, my company. The things that. The way that I run. Things like, you're not going to miss a birthday or you're not going to miss your. Your. Your marriage isn't going to go by the wayside because of me. Like, that's not going to happen. Like, we're. We're very flexible at what time. No one's late to shit that I have to do. Like, you can't be late to things. I mean, I was late today, but that was like a. That was a. That was a time zone thing. That wasn't like a respect thing.

[A]

My eyes just kept getting wider and wider.

[B]

You were like, dude, but, like, I. Like, no one could be, like, late for stuff. Like, we'll. We'll get it done, whatever. But, you know, there's. There's people who have children, and it's like, you're there for the morning, you're there for, you know, the evening, and we have a very loose, like, a work schedule. And I want that. I want there to be this balance. I do see my job as an extension of me, but it's a completely different part of my life. My personal life is very important to me, and I. And I truly, like, live a great life. I have a. Like a great social life and friends, and I like to go out and stuff like that. And I do enjoy my job as well, but feels like two separate worlds in a way. It's rare.

[A]

Mine does, too.

[B]

It's rare that I would get around people. Like, I really wouldn't enjoy. I don't think hanging out with people and the. And when I hang out with them, we're always talking about podcasting or, you know, just something that I'm doing at work because I'd be like, bro, I just, like, I'm just not interested in it that much, to be honest.

[A]

With you.

[B]

Like, I'm interested in it when I'm doing it. I can't do it when I'm kind of like, we can acknowledge that I have a job that does that or whatever, but, like, I'm just not interested in it that much. I don't really watch a lot of podcasts. I don't watch any real youtubers like, or anything like that. It's just not what I'm into. Like, I just have like a normal life and I do this thing on the side that's kind of like what it feels like.

[A]

I always think about MMA fighters and kind of friends with a couple, but no one super, super high level. But if you were friends with fucking Sean Strickland or whatever. And actually Sean's a bad example because he's an insane, who's a really normal person that happens to be a super high level Dustin Poirier. Yeah, Perfect example. Or like Michael Chandler, someone like that. Like, just normal dudes that happen, like, if they didn't wear things that showed off the fact that they're fucking animals. And then you, like, you're such a normal guy except for this bit of your life. And then in this one area, if I put you in a very specific situation, you're the most abnormal person on the planet. And I guess it's kind of a fucking porn star, something you're like, hey, in this one scenario, things are kind of extreme and outside of that you're probably just a normal fucking dude.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, that much is obvious that, like, I'm not over here. Like, I'm just a normal guy. Like, my life is not outrageous or anything. But I, I, there is a definite feel of, like these things are separate. And it's important for me to have that and to make sure that everyone is, has a flexible schedule. I think that's the ultimate dream. Right. You want to be able to, at least for me and the people that I've hired and keep around me is like, we want to be creative. We want to be able to see our families and have freedom to do certain things. And I also encourage anybody that, that works for me or does whatever to, if you have your own creative thing that you want to do, I'm in full support of that. Like, and if we can help in some sort of way, we will. And I, I just, my job is a lot easier if everyone's happy. So I try to keep people as happy as possible. Like, of course, there's times where you have to like, sort of reel that In a little bit. But for the most part, it's like, this needs to be a good experience when we go on tour. Like, we're not staying in, like, just this, like, the cheapest hotel. I'm trying to, like, book a really cool Airbnb or something that has, like, a pool and a cool view or whatever, because I want people to feel like we're all going to look back on this thing in our life. This is not a normal thing. Like, no one gets to do this. This is very abnormal. And I want people to look back on it and feel like that was such a great time in my life. Like, I know that I will look back on some of those pictures and now we have all these memories attached to them. Not just the fact that, like, oh, my God, that was so cool that we were able to do that when we were younger, but also, like, oh, do you remember when we went and did this thing, too? And when we were. Blah, blah, blah, like, we tried to go to all these cities and do something fun and try to get it on camera, or, like, there's photos and things like that. Like, I want it to be something that you can look back on super fondly. You know what I mean? So that is very important to me. I do enjoy being able to think about that, which is an absolute luxury, that I even get to do that. Because a lot of people who are in charge of something, they can't. They have shareholders or whatever, and it's just about the numbers. It's just me that's like that, you know, I mean, so it's like, I just have to make sure everyone's super happy and we're all being creative.

[A]

How else do you think about engineering fun? There's a lot of people. A lot of people take their work seriously, but it can cause them to become quite rigid. It can cause everything to become. It can go from serious to stern, if that makes sense. And they're not loose and flowy and not actually finding time to enjoy this process. They're very, very focused on the outcome, kind of the cost of getting there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you think about engineering fun? So it's not sternness when you're doing your work.

[B]

I think that the only way it can be. Can become stern is if you're trying to, like, manufacture it. Like, if you're trying, like, we're gonna have fun. It's like, that's not how you do it, you know? Like, I'm happy right now, I swear. And it's like, you're not like, do the things that make you happy. Like, follow the excitement. Like, do those things. If it doesn't resonate with you and it doesn't feel like in line with what you want do, even if it's good money or whatever, like, I will say no.

[A]

What's the biggest opportunity that you've ever turned down?

[B]

I mean, I turned down doing the tour for a number of years because at that point a lot of people were like, you could just go on stage and talk to each other and then you could make a bunch of money doing that. And I'm like, that's just not. No, that's not cool. Like, I'm not doing that and I don't care. Like, I don't care. At a. There was a time, I remember specifically when I was doing YouTube, there was a brand deal that came in for $75,000. And what they wanted was for me to. And this was kind of abnormal at the time to promote a phone game that was like something with zombies. I was like, what? But they wanted. Which I was okay with doing. But I always did advertisements at the very end of my video. And that's the way I did things because I was like, the product needs to be there. I mean, people are going to shut it off, but like, whatever, I'm going to stay true to that because I'm building something here. But they wanted me to put it in the first like 30 seconds or a minute. And that's why they were paying $75,000. And I was like, I'm not doing that. Like, I'm not doing that. And there's. There's been other deals. I mean, it happens a lot. There's. There's been six figure deals that I'm like, no, I'm not doing that because

[A]

I don't want to do that because the brand wasn't aligned or it's like

[B]

they just want me to do something that I'm not comfortable doing that I'm just like, no. Like, I won't. Why would I do that? Espec. I'm also. I'm almost offended that. And it used to be worse. My agent, one time, I was, I was. I did this thing with the Rock, right? So this is a good example, actually with this. I got hit up through my email from the Rock's team and he was starting his YouTube channel at the time, this was a while ago. And they were gonna do this series called Rock the promo, where they would have wrestlers kind of like as a guest host. And then they would have like, you Know, just people who wanted to be whatever. They would, like, cut promos. They would, like, have a character.

[A]

It's a good idea.

[B]

Yeah. So that's, that was on the YouTube channel. They asked me to host it, to be the guy that hosts and then does, like, color, color commentary. And I was like, oh, my God, that's awesome. They're like, yeah, it's the Rock and, like, the finale. You'll, you'll be with him and you guys will do it together. And I was like, this is awesome. And they're like, yeah, it's filming in LA and we'll need you there for, like, two weeks or whatever. And I was like, oh, forget it. No, like, I'm not doing that.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because I didn't want to go to LA. I, I, I, I was making YouTube videos, and I was doing my podcast at the time, which wasn't, like, super successful or anything, but I, like, had a schedule and I liked that, and I like my life. You're asking me to go there for two weeks. It also, at the time, didn't pay a lot. But that didn't really matter because it could have been whatever. I mean, unless it was, like, life changing. Then I would have been like, all right, all this. I'm going. Because I didn't have a lot of money at that time. But I was like, no, I can't. Like, I'm not doing that. Apparently, he really wanted me to do it. So they moved the recording to New York, and we recorded it in New York. And then the part that's funny is, like, that's why I'm saying, like, it used to be worse. Because when someone tries to incentivize me with money, that bothers me like crazy. If, like, you think that you could have bought me with that, it's like, all right, I want you to do this. And I'm like, I don't want to do that. It's like, all right, what if we give you this money? It's like, what do you think of me that you can buy me into? Like, I just said, I don't want to do it. You know what I mean? Like, it won't be about the money. So in this situation, it was funny. The thing that I hated also back then was, like, you go into a meeting and people start name dropping. Like, yeah, we've worked with this and this and this. And I'm like, I don't care. Why do I care? Like, let's talk about the thing that we're doing. Is it going to be Good. Can you be helpful or can I be helpful even? And on the set of by the way, amazing thing with the Rocks team, and I eventually met him and. Oh, that's a cool story that I should tell you. But on set, the PA There was, like, saying something, and then she's like, oh, yeah. She, like, mentioned someone's name, and then she was like, oh. And I was like. I was like, what was that? She's like, oh, your agent was like, try not to name drop because that bothers you. And I was like, oh, God, what have I done? I was like, what is this monster that I.

[A]

Reputation. Proceed.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, it's not that bad. I'm like, not. Definitely not in this sort of situation because, you know, I was just happy to be there. But the Rock dude was the nicest guy in my experience. Like, I hadn't had any back and forth with him at all during this. This thing. And then the finale of this thing was filming in Vegas, and he was going to be there. He was flying from Hawaii, filming one of the Jumanjis, I guess, and coming back, doing this thing, then going to host to Mr. Olympia, whatever the fuck, and then going back to Hawaii in one day, psychotic. But on the way over to Vegas, I'm like, on the plane and I'm by myself. So I'm like, I'm just going to kill some time. I'm going to write a sketch, and then I'm going to send it to his producer because I had his email, and I'm like, oh, if the Rock wants to be on my YouTube channel, like, here's, you know, whatever. So I wrote this thing out and I sent it to his producer. Never heard anything but get to set. And he shows up eventually, and everyone's, like, crowding him, you know, whatever. And I'm kind of like, now I'm, like, nervous because I'm like, okay, I can't fuck this up. Like, I had some lines that I had to. Whatever. And I was like, hosting this thing. He comes up to me, the nicest guy in the world. Like. Like, we're boys. Like, the guy. By the end of the shoot, like, we were joking around in between takes. The director's like, all right, fucking stop. Like, he was. It was kind of like that. Like, come on, we got to fucking. We got time or whatever. Like, we were just joking around. The guy who was doing the lighting on the set was like, how long have you guys known each other? I'm like, I just Fucking met that guy. He's like, what? I would say you guys were friends for years. Like, he was super nice to me. At the end of the shoot, he comes up to me and he goes, I know you sent that script, but, you know. And I was like, what the fuck is he talking about? I had forgotten. I was already like, this is an amazing experience. So I was like, who the fuck is he talking about? Some script. And he's like, I can't do the script, but what do you say we just, like, improv like a scene? And he's. And I was like, okay. And he's like, what do you want the scene to be? I was like, okay, why don't we just have, like, an argument that, you know, I wasn't your, like, first or second choice to be host, and I'll just get offended by that and at the end you'll just give me a rock bottom. And he was like, all right, cool. So then they turned the cameras on and we just improv the scene. One take and we. And I put it out and like, there's a video on my YouTube channel.

[A]

Where do we watch that? Can you get that up? I want to see you getting rock bottomed.

[B]

If we could find it. I. It cuts in the middle. I didn't, like, hit the deck. I would have liked to. I did get a diamond cutter, though, one time. What's that from? Ddp. Diamond Dallas Page. He's like a wrestler. And the job that me and Greg like used to. We met at. We used to work for this company, Elite Daily. He came in to shoot like a video and we all were just like, yo, can you give us a diamond cutter? Because there was like a pad that we had. So he's just diamond cutting everyone in the office. There he is. It was a different time. Don't judge the. The tightness of my pants.

[A]

Hey, listen, man, I just want to

[B]

thank you for doing such a great job. I really appreciate being like your first round draft pick for this and really, that means a lot to me. Oh, hey, no problem. I don't know.

[A]

First round? What is first round?

[B]

You mean like my first choice? Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, you weren't quite my first choice, but. Hey, wait, hold on. Hey, time out. Hold on. No, no, no. So I wasn't your first choice. So they lied to me. You guys lied to me. Great. Because I was told I was first round. Who was first round? It was Kevin Hart. I know you guys are like, basically dating now. You're hanging out all the time on instagram Easy. Calm down, okay? I'll get over it. Please, relax. Second place is fine. Silver. I'm cool with Silver. You weren't first choice. Okay? Okay, buddy, come on. You weren't second choice. I wasn't second choice. So now I'm not second choice?

[A]

No, you're not second choice either.

[B]

Listen, I'll get over it. I'm lied to you. Okay, but listen, you weren't first choice, but you were a great choice, right? How about that? Yeah, that's something you tell losers. Okay, listen. Okay, okay. Bronze. I'm on the podium. Whatever. I appreciate it. What are you angry about?

[A]

What's the matter?

[B]

Third place. It's fine. Oh, this is cool. Whatever. All right, well, here's the truth. Well, you're being an asshole right now. You weren't first, you weren't second, you weren't third. Okay, here's third. Right here's here. And you were way the. Okay, that's where you were. But it's cool, dude, cuz you did a great job. That's un believable. You have some balls in front of all these people just to say some like that. To get angry like that for. I'm all the way in the corner with the dirt. There's dust and Joe, you've been sucking

[A]

dick for beer money for 10 years.

[B]

That's not true. That is not true. I've never sucked any dicks from beer money, ever. I know, but it's between not one dick. Stop it now. And how do you know that? How'd you just think that? How do you know people even suck dick for beer? Grateful, okay. Okay, yeah, I'm grateful for movie tickets. How many times?

[A]

Remember?

[B]

Zero times. Stop it. Yeah, how many times you go, yeah, I'll get you, oh, tickets tomorrow.

[A]

You want to go to my premiere?

[B]

It's gonna be awesome. And I'm like, yeah, I'm down. And then I get there and you're like. And people are like, no, I don't know who the fuck you are, you know, on this list. Very nice of you. Very nice. Did you have a good time on the show?

[A]

Huh?

[B]

It was nice. Okay. I did all right. It was good. Come on, buddy. Okay, I'm sorry. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you. I really appreciate it. Get in here. It was, it was. It was. It was a lot of fun. But that was such a crazy thing. And that was like, very early on in my, like, career doing this too. So it was like a cool opportunity. Looking back on it, I do have regrets of being like, nope, not going to go to la, because, like, who are you to say that you're not going to go to la? But I give myself some grace because I do think that, like, especially at that time, I was, like, protecting myself. Like, I really wanted to. I felt very strongly about the authenticity thing. And I'm like, I have to just do the things that I think are right in this moment, and I'll probably be wrong. I mean, even decisions that I make today, I could. I will probably look back on and be like, I would have done that differently. But I. But you can't, like, beat yourself up about that like, that. Maybe that was the right choice for that time.

[A]

How do you know the difference between being authentic and impulsive?

[B]

I don't think that I did. I don't think I did. I mean, I like to think that I'm not a.

[A]

You know what I mean? I can make a rash decision like that and go, well, that felt authentic, or that feels authentic to me. But it's actually maybe a decision that you haven't been sufficiently considerate around.

[B]

Sure. I think that I make an effort to not make emotional decisions. So if I'm very angry and I would like to say no, I'm like, I gotta walk away from this so that I can make a decision not based on that. So I think that's a helpful thing. Like, through therapy is, like, emotional decision making, I think. I mean, it can be good and bad, it can work out. But also you can live to regret that because you're like, oh, I made that when I was not in the clearest headspace, or I did that in spite of something. Like, that's also a thing that I desperately try not to do. Like, I don't want to do anything in spite of something.

[A]

Like, I want to just improve someone else or something else.

[B]

Yeah, like, that would just be like, an insecurity thing. Like, I'm trying to be a secure person, which I consider myself, like, a secure person, especially when it comes to, like, creative stuff like that. Like, of course I have moments of insecurity, but when it comes to decision making, I need to be in a point and, like, give myself some credit for. Like, you've made it this far, following your gut and your intuition. So just make a call. And if you're wrong, which I've been wrong many times, it's my fault. Fine. But what I can't live with is someone like an agent or something being like, this is the thing for you. This is what you have to do. And then I end up Doing that, and I don't like it. And it doesn't work out because a lot of stuff now doesn't work out for people, like, creatively, like, doesn't work all the time. Like, that's part of the job kind of. But, like, if, if it was on them, I'd be furious because then it would feel like, oh, my God. I, like, I let it go for a second. I let go of the reins and I let someone dictate, you know, And

[A]

I knew my failure.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I can't even. Like, my failure is that I let you make the decision almost.

[A]

You know, like, the word that's coming to mind is conviction. Doing something with conviction. And both me and George Big Nose sneezes a lot. Our co theme for 2026 is high conviction. We both want to be more high conviction with things. So that's when I have a sense that this is the right thing, commit to that thing. And it is way better to be high conviction and fail than low conviction and fail. Way better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because at least when you're high conviction and fail, you get to learn, you get to update, you get to, oh, I'm fine. Okay. Like, I, I, I went for that. Next time, when I go for it again, I'll do it slightly differently or I'll go for something else. But the low conviction failure thing, you're not even moving. You're just being sort of swept along. You're not learning decision making. And that's, it's. Again, it's that sliding versus deciding thing. no point did you decide for this to happen. You just sort of fell into it.

[B]

I also want to make it clear that I don't think that I'm just right. Like, I think I'm like, it's not that I think I'm right. It's like, I think. No, actually, maybe that is what I'm trying to say is that if I believe that I'm right, then I'm like, okay, but I don't think you're wrong. Like, I think you're right too. And I think everyone is right. And I think you need to, like, trust yourself. Like, your intuition. If you can really sit with yourself and you know yourself and you're sitting there like, this is the thing. You're right. Like, you're right. Just believe that you're right and just keep following that. Like, allow yourself to make mistakes. Allow yourself to believe in yourself and allow the belief to dictate your behavior. Like, you'll be surprised where that could bring you. It Just like drags you along. When you can really be like, this is what feels like the right decision in this moment. It doesn't even have to be professionally. It could be like personally or whatever. If you are sitting somewhere and you know, like, okay, I don't want to make an emotional decision and you have that awareness and you're like, I just need to do what's best for me. What I truly believe in my heart, you're right. Like you have to be right because it's you, it's your life. Like you're in charge of everything. Like it's your life, you'll make the decisions. Everything is your fault. Everything that goes wrong is your fault. But what that means is that, that everything that you get out of life is because of you too. And you should be happy for the good things in your life. And that, that can get hard because when things start going bad, you're like, I'm my up right now. But it makes the wins like that much sweeter I think then when, when people can get to the point where one time, it only needs to happen one time, where you like really feel deeply about something and then it ends up being right and you get the validation or it's correct and you get that from the situation, you realize that you can do that. Like that is a huge moment. Like I can feel something so deeply and then that's how I made my decision. And then it ended up being the right path. That's so powerful. Instead of overthinking, stopping yourself, which a lot of people do, overthinking it and being like, well no, because of this, this and this and whatever. Like just what is the thing you feel? It's like make it simpler. And this is why like the authenticity thing I think is important because what is it just driving you? And it seems very, almost like selfish in a way, but it's like it's further back than that. It's not a self serving thing. It's like I, it's just something I just believe. Like it's a belief in me that I just need to, to see play out without being. By the way, I don't even know the right word, but just like not in like a negative way. Like I need to get my way because I'm not that person whatsoever. Just. There's a belief though that I'm like, I just believe that I'm right and I can be wrong, but it doesn't change the fact that I believed and I get to a point and I'm okay With being wrong, because that's fine. The only thing that I need is to believe something. I've said that word a thousand times already. But like, it's true. Like, that's kind of how I feel about all the decisions or every single opinion that I have. Like, I need to believe all my opinions. I don't have any opinions that I'm kind of like, oh, I don't know. Or I can. Like, if I'm. If I spent time with it and I have an opinion. Like I have an opinion and I. And I believe in it and I will, like fight for it. But if you say something that completely destroys my shit, my shit is gone. I'm not. I have no ego. I can get rid of it. I will keep this one. Now, you know, like, I'm so willing to learn and, and to grow. Like, I want that. I, I welcome that. I want to be wrong. Like, I want to be wrong. Like I need to, I need to believe that I'm right, But I actually want to be wrong. Like I actually do. Because then that's where the growth comes. Like now I'm. Now I can get better, you know, like actually doing good. Like, I don't think that a lot of people just want to live in a comfort zone, right? They just want to live in a space that makes them, that just validates them completely all the time. And they, it's, it's whatever. Some, not all people, but like some people want to live in there. I actually don't believe that having comfort every single day of your life will result in some sort of net positive. I think that it's only a matter of time where you get like restless and you'll like create a problem because you don't have any problems, at least for me. And I don't know this to be right. I'm just some idiot. But it almost feels like humans are not designed that way. Like, you need purpose and part of purpose is challenge. Like you need something to challenge you. But if your actions are just putting you back in your comfort zone, what do you get? Like you're setting yourself up to fail almost. Not only you're not growing, forget about that. But this thing that feels very innate of challenges and purpose of being a human being or whatever, whatever that may mean. It's different for everybody if you don't have that. It's like, where do you think you're going that's going to deteriorate your mental health? Almost. You're done. You've already done everything and now you're just gonna. You're just done, you know, Like, a part of me doesn't understand why there are people who work on Wall street that make $80 million a year and they work 80 hours a week still. And it's like, bro, you got $250 million in the bank. Do something else. Like. But part of me does get it. Part of me does get why there is that. Because it's like, I don't know, that I have, like, a weird relationship with. Because I do understand the feeling of, like, it's not necessarily about the money anymore, but I also think that, like, a work life balance is very important. I'm not working super hard to have $250 million. I don't care. I don't care about having $250 million. I want to enjoy my life, you know, Like, I don't want to, like, work my entire life and then be. And then the payoff is things that I could be doing now. Like, you want to hang out with your friends, you want to, you know, see your family or spend time. You can. You can. You're going to sacrifice your entire life, all these years to what the end goal is. Like, well, now I can sit back and relax and just enjoy my time. Brother, you could do it now.

[A]

Have you ever heard the parable of the Mexican fisherman? Have you heard this?

[B]

He's Mexican in this one. I thought he was from a different country. Honestly, which fisherman's this? I don't know. It could have been. I don't know.

[A]

Okay. An American investment banker was at a small pier on a small coastal town village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat was several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. The Mexican replied, only a little while. The American then asked, why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time? The Mexican fisherman said, I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife Maria, and stroll into the village every evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life. The American scoffed, I have an MBA from Harvard and can help you. He said, you should spend more time fishing with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats and eventually you would have a fleet of Fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the processor and eventually open up your own cannery. You could control the product processing and distribution. He said of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City and then Los Angeles and eventually to New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise. The Mexican fisherman asked, but how long will all this take? To which the American replied, oh, 15 to 20 years or so. But what then? Asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said, that's the best part. When the time was right, you would announce an ipo. You could sell your company's stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions of millions. Then what? The Americans said then you could retire, move to a small coastal fishing village where you could sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, and swole to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos. Life is often simpler than we make.

[B]

Yeah, dude. I mean, that's great. That's exactly what I'm saying. Like, that's. That's so true. Like, I think that it's tough. Like a lot of people, sometimes they. Their identity becomes their job. I'm very self aware about that. That I don't want that. Especially I think that would make me unlikable if my job and some sort of like the followers and doing live shows and already sometimes people are probably like a person probably sucks. Like they think they're the man or whatever. Like, I separate these things because they're completely different. I just want to enjoy my life. Like I'm already. It's already good enough. That doesn't slow me down because I have passions and things that I want to accomplish. But I will never sacrifice the things that actually matter in my life. Like, I'm not going to miss a birthday.

[A]

I was going to say what matters.

[B]

What matters is. What matters is, is making sure that I'm being a good person, dude. Like, honestly, like, I just want people when I pass away to be like, that was a good dude. And like, that's pretty much the extent of it. Like, I just want that. And I. And I. Ideally that would come from, you know, the, like everybody. I want to be as helpful as I can. I do want to make an impact in some sort of way. But I really just like, I just want to be a good dude. And I. And I just want to earn things because I think that makes me feel good to know that I'M putting work in and, and trying to earn something and I'm getting things back from it. That's, that feels like a really cool exchange, but I, I really just want to be a good dude. And, and I think there's also this, this notion online where it's like, if you're, if you're 20 years old and you're not drop shipping and you're not like into crypto and wearing blue tinted glasses that like, you're a loser. Like, I don't think it's your life isn't the Lambo, dude. This isn't the end. All, be all is like the Lambo like that everyone's like, I'm gonna get some money, then I'll buy a Lambo. It's like, you don't need to do that. Like, I do think, like, I don't want to say that. Like, you know, some people who are very successful will just be like, oh, well, money isn't. Well, won't make you happy. I think that's insane to say that. Like, of course it will make you happy. Having financial security is a massive weight off your shoulders. So that already is like, that trumps everything that, like the argument of, like, it won't make you happy. I get what people are saying when they say that. It's not like you could buy your way to happiness. It's like, well, I bought a plane, I got cars and whatever. It's like, yeah, but you're still fucked up emotionally because you haven't really spent time doing that and you haven't really seen your family and, you know, you worked all this, you worked this long for what? For things. For like, you know, the number in your bank account to be higher. You're like missing the point, in my opinion. Like me, like I said, I'm a very social dude. I like making new friends. I like learning new things. I like traveling and getting out in the world and putting myself in uncomfortable situations. That's the only way that I feel like I am growing and I'm obsessed with that. I'm obsessed with growth and just learning about what, what the world has to offer. Like, and everyone has something to offer, you know, like, and I wish I could know it all. I wish I could to, to, to meet everybody and have a conversation with them. And, you know, I'm the type of person that randomly, like, I'll be in a deep conversation with just like a fucking stranger, like, because I enjoy that. I like hearing, I always tell, I always tell Greg, like, one of my dream Jobs is to be a bartender in, like, a slow pup, you know? So I could just. Like, you can get to know your regulars. And, like, that just seems like a very, like, nice thing to. To. And not aesthetically. Like, I really think that it's a nice thing to be able to sit down and talk to someone and it, like, feel that sense of community. Like, that's the best, dude. Like, that's the best. I saw a video recently on TikTok where this guy was, like, interviewing people, and he found this old woman, and she was talking about pubs and how they're, like, the greatest thing in the world. And she's like, you just go to your local pub, and she's like, I feel like people don't do this anymore. Like, you go to your local pub and you talk to the people in there about your problems at your job or your relationship, and you talk to the bartender, and sometimes they give advice, and it's bad advice or good advice, but that sense of community, it's like, a place you can go. Like, I'm obsessed with stuff like that. Like, I love that. And I also love how there's different versions of that. You can never know. Everything. Everything changes. Everyone's different, and everyone's right. I believe. Like, everyone's right. If they believe they're right, then they are. Like, I think that I'm right for me, but not for you, if that makes sense. And I think that's sort of fascinating to me. So I. I want to get out there, and I want to experience all that, and I want to feel uncomfortable because that, again, that I get so much from that, it feels very rewarding. And I did make the mistake when. Cause I wasn't always like that. I grew up in a neighborhood, Astoria, Queens, where everything that you want is there, basically. At least it was for me. And I had a lot of friends in the neighborhood and whatever, and I would barely even go into Manhattan to hang out or go to a bar. It's just like, I'm just gonna stay here, whatever. But something in me shifted, and I was like, I want to see more. And once that started happening and I started traveling, I was like. The first time that I took a flight from Paris to Mykonos, and I was just looking out the window, and it was like, oh, my God, the world is massive. As stupid as this sounds, by the way, this was, like, seven years ago. But I was like, the world is massive, and there's so much out there that, like, you can see pictures of, but it's like, the pictures aren't going to do it justice, dude. Like, get out there and see it. Like, the world is so cool, and there's so many cool people. Like, the idea, like, a fantasy of just going to some random small town in Ireland and walking into a pub and making a friend is, like, the greatest thing in the world to me. And, like, just. And, like, now you're so lucky because you live in a time where, like, you could keep in touch with that guy if you wanted to. You know what I mean? Like, that's such a cool thing to me. It's like, now you got a friend in fucking Ireland, across the water. Like, it's like, I don't know. Things like that are fascinating. I actually think that is the point. Like, that's the point. And the job is just so I can be able to do that. And I'm fortunate enough that right now I could do stuff like that. So I'm good. I just have to fulfill my personal, like, need to want to create and also make an impact. Like, if I am given the privilege of being more successful than I am right now, I will give back more. Like, that is something that I want to do and something that's always been in me of, like, giving back to people, making donations to charities and things like that. Like, I want to feel like I'm doing the right thing because I don't need all of it. I don't need all the money, and I don't need that sort of thing. Like, I get a lot of joy out of helping people. People, and I get a lot of joy out of just, like. Of other people being happy. I love that. Like, I. I love being in a group of people, and everyone's just super happy. But I did make the mistake at a time where I thought that everyone should want the things that I want, which is wrong. Not everyone needs to be, like, entrepreneurial and, like, chasing something. Like, follow your passion and do whatever. Like, find a thing. Like, your job isn't your passion. Find something else. And whatever. Not everyone is. Is wired that way, which is the beauty of it, too. That. That was like. Then you become this person who's like, I want to save everyone and I want to. And. And that's wrong, I think. And I've gotten to a point now where you. You know, like we were saying earlier, there are some people that are content. The fishermen, right? I've. I was the dude at Harvard. Harvard was never in the cards for a guy like me, but I was that guy where I was like, here's what we could do, you know, whatever. And they're just like, bro, I don't want to do that. You want to do that. And it's like, oh, yeah. You know, like, you can't force that on people either. So to make it easier, a very simplified version is like, make yourself happy. Don't do it in spite of anything. And you don't need everyone to do the thing that you're doing. Run your game. That's it. Run your race. And everyone else is running their race. But make sure that everyone around you is happy because that's really the only thing. Dude, if you're content with one fish a day, what the fuck am I gonna say? If I'm not content with one fish a day, that sucks for me. I gotta go out and fish more. But you're cool, bro. I'm kind of jealous of you then, you know, like, and just because I have more money, it doesn't mean anything at a certain point if what I want out of life is to truly just, you know, be able to travel and see people and learn things and talk to people and have these types of conversations. And I'm doing it. I got on a plane to get here to have this conversation with you. I'm doing it. What am I going to be upset about? This is the thing that I wanted for so long and I'm doing it now. So I'm playing with house money. So just realizing that also and not just getting on the hamster wheel for the sake of getting on it. It's like nothing's ever good enough or whatever, dude. It's not like free yourself up if you're looser. I think that things, it's easier to kind of get your job done also if you're like real strict. Like I gotta, whatever we were talking about before, it's like I need to be creative right now because I need to make more money and then I can do this and then, then I'll be. It's like, bro, just, just, just find what you're doing and just like try to, you know, whatever. I'm fucking talking in circles now. This new tonic is killing me.

[A]

No, man, you're. You're infectious. You're really infectious. I'm being serious. I'm being serious. I can see why you're successful. I can see why people follow you. I can see why however many tens of thousands of people sold out Madison Square Garden to come and see you as well, you know that level of self belief that doesn't feel tyrannical doesn't feel like it's overbearing or domineering or, or selfish. Like, I have a good idea of what I like and I like what I like. And I want to try and create a life that helps me to enjoy as much of that as possible is about as infectious of a philosophy as you can get. And I can totally see why you've been successful.

[B]

Thank you, dude. And I appreciate you saying that because sometimes. And I realize the way that I'm talking about it now, it almost sounds like, like I'm a freight train. And it's like I have this thing in my head and I have to do it my way and everyone get out of my way. It's not like that. Like, I'm much softer than that. Like that goes on in here and. But mostly I'm scared. Like, mostly I'm. I'm scared and I'm like second guessing myself, but I like am putting one foot in front of the other because I feel like I have to. Because there's a voice in my head that, I mean, obviously I'm like anxious about things and I'm. And I'm scared of certain things or whatever, but there's a voice in my head that's so intense and it's so loud that like, yo, fucking do it. Like, don't be a coward. Like, do it. And like, it's so loud that I can't sort of ignore it. But that only exists in here. I'm not like a freight train. Like, I'm not like this, like when we're on set or something or when we're talking about ideas. Like, no, no, no, we're gonna do it this. Like, it's not like that. It's. It's more of like an internal belief thing.

[A]

I had a conversation with a guy called David Dader. He wrote this super famous book in the 90s called the Way of the Superior Man. And he's a coach, philosopher, spiritual guide for men and guys especially that have lost their purpose a little bit and don't really know where they're going in life. And I did the first interview that he's done in a decade a couple of weeks ago. And when I was doing the research to look at him, I went back to the start of his career. And this guy has had the most fucking eclectic career that you have ever heard of. He did quantum mechanics, then he did pure mathematics, then he worked on AI in the 80s. Then he ran a yoga ashram retreat for forever. Then he did this coaching thing, then he did a family thing, then he became an author. Then he went back and did more AI stuff and he founded company. Just bounced all over the place. And I asked him while we were talking, dude, I can't really. What are you read. I can't piece together. I can't weave the path of your life in a straight line. And he said, when I don't want to do something or when I'm called to change what I'm doing. Being out of alignment with that voice is so painful to me, Physically painful to me. It feels like someone's wrenching my insides. I don't have any choice. So what from the outside looks like self belief and bravery and single mindedness from the inside is actually fear of pain. And the pain is me being out of alignment. And you sound like him. You sound like that guy. The voice in my head is so loud that I can't not do it. I can't not do the thing because they're saying, don't be a coward. Go and do it. Go and chase your dreams.

[B]

Yeah. And it's like, yo, if I feel like I have, like one part of me feels like I have the potential. And I think that a lot of people see potential in themselves for certain things like, yo, I could do that or I can do this or whatever. But they get discouraged along the way. I never get discouraged because I have that where it's like, just keep going. Like, are you going to stop? Like you can't stop. You believe it. Like if you believe it, then it's like it's those things like meet and it's like, but you believe it. Like, if I believe it, I have to keep going then because I believe it. I can't. Like I have to be. I have to see it through, you know? Like, it's really tough for me to. Like there are some things because there was a point in my life where I was very experimental too. Like, I'll try a bunch of different things and just to sort of see, like creatively I think that is helpful. Like, I don't really see a lot of merit in picking something. And it's like, well, I have to do that now. Like, that's the thing that, like, I think there is merit in realizing along that journey where your strengths are. And it's okay to pivot. It's okay to pivot and do things that now make more sense that are resonating even harder because there's no way you have it figured out on day one, no matter what. You could plan all you want and you can do whatever, but it's never going to go the way that you think. So, I mean, that's another thing, too, that me and Greg have had multiple discussions about where creatively, people can get into a creative rut, where they feel like, I have to keep planning to perfect this, and I don't think that's helpful, like, for anything. I think that you can only learn by doing, like, trial by fire. Like, just put yourself out there. Like, you can plan a little bit.

[A]

Give me an example.

[B]

Starting a podcast. Stephen, if you're starting a podcast and you're like, I want to start a podcast, you have a loose idea, you have something that you want to do. Cool, whatever. Like, dude, start. But you're going to spend three months being like, so here's the strategy where I'm going to have conversations with all these people, and I'm really going to dial it in or whatever. You think you're not going to pivot? You think you got it right? Right now you haven't even started. Like, you don't have it right. You need to start now, though, because

[A]

you're only going to learn those things. Did you not begin working on the live show a year before you even went out there thinking of this song that you were going to walk out to?

[B]

Yeah, that. That, to me, is like, a different thing. So, like, what the shows were. No, like that. Those moments are like, I'm scoring something, like a part of a movie of my life, kind of. Like, that's what that kind of feels like. Of like, okay, that's the moment that I want to make happen. This is the thing that's motivating me right now, like, kind of. How do we get there? Also, the action of, like, okay, that's what we want. We want Radio City. It wasn't until after the first show that I looked at my agent. I was like, I want Radio City. And he's like, all right. Like, I'll kind of work on it and we'll see if we can get it or whatever. This is after the first show. Who the am I? By the way? That was crazy. I was on a high. I came off stage, I was like, that was sick. So I was like, yo, Radio City, book the Yankee Stadium. I don't care. But so, yeah, it's like, I want to do that. I'm not ready for it. But it's like, book it over there. I'll get to it, and we'll figure it out. I'm focused on. Okay, I need to be Better tomorrow or I need to be better at the next show and whatever. And, like, we're going to get there eventually, but I'm not, like, planning and just being like. So I'll give you an example. So when we're starting the tour, right, it's a decision of, like, should we. Should we go on tour? And then it's like, yes, we should. Action the next day. So an action would be like, we're talking to the agent. We're like, okay, what's the process for this thing? And going along the way, it's like, all right, whatever. Like, of course, then you have to get to planning what the show is going to be. I mean, there's no way you're going to walk out there and be like, well, I have no plan. Hello. Like, there is that sort of planning, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about. I'm talking about stalling the process so that you can, like, perfect something that you can't perfect.

[A]

It would be not booking the show until you'd written the show.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And even then, it's like, what do you think? It's not going to change, dude. I mean, we had the conversation yesterday where your fucking show changed every five minutes or whatever the fuck you were like, Yeah, I changed 40% of every show.

[A]

Bailed out in between each show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's. But it's true. It's like, the only way that you can really learn. Like, think about how long if you, like, were like, okay, we're going to do that, but we're going to, you know, really plan, really hone it in and blah, blah, blah. Like, you're just going to have to jump. It's a lot of. Of that. Do you have a tattoo? Yeah.

[A]

It says smile on the inside of my wrist.

[B]

Okay. I get the same sort of feeling when I got tattoos. It's like, well, I want the tattoo. And now I'm sitting in the shop and I'm like, fuck. Like, this thing is permanent or whatever. And I had the same feeling every time I got a tattoo where I'm like, this. And then it's like the guy's like, are you ready? And a part of me just goes like, fuck it. Like, maybe you'll hate it. Like, but whatever, fuck it. It's like, that approach is like, what you need is you're never gonna be, like, super ready. You're never gonna have it fully dialed in. Like, but you need to just do it and just suck at it, because no Matter what, it's gonna suck. It's. If you're lucky, it's gonna suck. If you're lucky. If you're, if you, if, if you can't look back on something you did years ago and you're like, that was great, then you probably suck now because there's no one getting it right on the first try. Like, you should suck because that means that you grew and you got better at something. But you have to start. Like, you're never gonna plan your way out of not sucking. Like, you're gonna look back, embarrassed a little bit. You're gonna look back and be like, that wasn't great. And also, things change. You're gonna have to adapt anyway. Just start. Like, just start, dude. Like, just suck at it. Just suck at it. But you're doing it. You're doing it. Make it your identity. Just do it. Like, just do it. If you want to be a rapper, dude, then be a rapper. Be it. You can be it, you know, like, just do it then. No, you don't have to sell out a fucking venue to be a rapper, bro.

[A]

Rap.

[B]

Just do it. Like, then you're a rapper. Like, make it your identity. When people think of your name, they're going to associate yourself with that. They're going to associate your name with like, yeah, that kid's a rapper. That's what you want. Then you're it. Being successful at it, that's a different problem. That's a different problem for a different day. You're gonna have to be good at it. You're gonna have to care about it and all that fucking bullshit. But if you want to be something, dude, make the decision and do it. You can. What you're worried about and the thing that stalls you is, are other people going to think that I'm good at this, or how am I gonna look? Am I gonna look cringy? Am I gonna. Whatever. Like, get to the point where you're okay with that in who you are, know who you are, and be like, I don't care if people think I'm cringy. Like, of course people, People really think that about people. In your comments, probably like, this kid's cringey, bro. Fuck this kid. Like, but whatever, bro. I don't care. I'm. It's not why I'm doing it. Like, I, I. This, Everything I'm saying feels so real to me. Like, this is not like a fake thing that I have. So I'm okay with people interpreting, interpreting it in a different way and thinking that it's for show or. Or whatever. Like, it doesn't matter, bro, because I don't. One, I don't know you, and two, like, I have to live my life. I'm gonna walk away from this thing. Like, even if you're looking at me right now and you're like, this kid's kind of an idiot, and I don't agree with anything he's saying, bro, I don't care. I don't care because it's real to me and I have to live my life. It's my reality. So, like, it's kind of like that. There has to be a balance, though, to be fair, because everything I'm saying, you can get yourself in trouble where it's like, I believe everything that I

[A]

say and whatever gets close to delusion.

[B]

I. I only. It only works. And you're not a fucking brutal hang if you have checks and balances and you're very willing to take on criticism and you're very willing to listen as well. Because you can't just always be the one talking. You can't, because you're not going to learn anything. Like, if you're not giving someone the opportunity to talk or to teach you something or you think they can't teach you anything, you're wrong. You're wrong, because everybody can teach you something. Just shut up and listen sometimes. But then if you can master those two things, it's very empowering to know that. Oh, man, I'm willing to be wrong. But I also. I believe in myself and my decisions. But, I mean, that definitely could get me to a dead end. But I have to be okay with that. And I am. I am okay with that because I'm already grateful for what I have. Like, I'm already at the point where, like, this is good enough for me. I'm willing to hit the dead end. I was willing to hit the dead end fucking ten years ago. Like, that's. That's the. The fact that I. I always feel like I have nothing to lose. I have nothing to lose. Like, day one, I felt like I had nothing to lose. I still feel like that now. Like, I could take a risk, whatever. What's going to happen cares, or, like, this is going to upset someone because you're not going to do this, and that's going to upset someone or someone's like, yo, this is going to be a bad decision for your career. But if I don't feel like it's right for me, bro, I don't care. Take it then. Take my career. I don't care. Like, I have to stand on it like that, you know? Like, you. You have to. You have to do what's right for you. When I. When I first got signed to William Morris, I had a meeting, and it was. I was young, and I was on a big. It was a big table, and there was a lot of people there.

[A]

I've done one of those.

[B]

And it was like, this lady's like, I'm your book agent. And I was like, don't read who's next? Like someone else, you know? But then they were, like, talking about stuff. And one of the things that I said in that meeting was I was also, like, didn't really know much. So I. The. The idea that I had in my head about agents was like, they're gonna try and, like, take over your career and make you do stuff that you don't want to do or whatever. Like, for whatever reason. And I told them, like, you know, there's a chance that you present a thousand things, and I say no to all of them. Like, I'm gonna do the thing that I. That I want to do. And I wanted them to know that I wasn't intimidated by the moment. Even if I was intimidated by the moment, I was lying. But I wanted them to know that you can't push me around. I don't know how much I believe that, but I was like. I didn't want them to think that it's like, we got it from here, kid type of thing. I was like, no, get the fuck off me. I'm still gonna do this thing. I will accept help, of course, and some sort of guidance, but it has to resonate with this thing that has gotten to me, like, gotten me everywhere that I have gone. Like, it has to resonate with that. Like, I can't do something that doesn't hit there. I just refuse to do that, whatever that means. If that means missing out on. Which I've missed out on a ton of stuff, it's gotten me in trouble. I've definitely said no to things that I probably should have done, but whatever, it's fine. It's okay. I'm willing to lose. It's fine. But that. That's. That's the route I'm choosing to go. That I. I'm okay with losing. I'm okay with missing out on stuff. I'll learn from it. And maybe it takes a few tries to even learn from it. It's not like, one thing, and then it's like, no, I got it. I'm Good. Like, no, it's like it's a series of mistakes. But that's the point. You're supposed. I'm happy to make the mistakes. Who the fuck is not making mistakes? And it's cool. It was like, you know, you got nothing going on. You got, you got. You're not making mistakes. You're not taking huge Ls, like, what are we talking about then, dude? No risks, no nothing. What is your day like, dude? Like, what is it? You're just gonna write on post its and sneeze? That's it. Give me something, George. You know, like take risk. It's exciting. It's exciting to fail, dude. Like it makes you a person. It gives you something at least. But like, I don't know. Just, just fucking. I don't know, dude. I get very passionate about this. Dude, forget about it. You put a fucking glass of red wine in front of me, we'd be here for 10 hours. Be a rap.

[A]

I get it, man. What would you say to someone who struggles with their self belief or self assuredness every time that they try to tap into their gut instinct, they struggle, they can't really hear it or they're scared. What would you say?

[B]

I think that's normal. I think it's normal to tap in, listen to it. It doesn't work out and you're scared. And you're scared because it hasn't worked out in the past part of it. Keep listening. Just keep listening and keep doing. If that's what's interesting to you, if you think it would fulfill you to be at a place eventually where your, your sort of end all, be all is your intuition. That's something that you want. Just all you got to do is listen and keep doing it and just keep making the mistakes. I didn't get it right. I still, bro, I get this shit wrong all the time. I don't even know if what I'm saying right now is coherent. I'm just talking like, you know what I'm saying. Like it's probably not. Don't laugh. So now I know it's not. But I like you just lay it all out on the table. It's okay to be vulnerable, like whatever, be cringe, be whatever. But you get somewhere with that. At least it's real. Like at least if you're being vulnerable, people know that and it's real. You're taking a swing. By doing that, I can come on this show and just say a bunch of things that I think you want to hear. I don't Even know what you want to hear. But, like, I could. I could just do that, but, like, I don't get anything for that. Like, I'm trying right now. I'm trying right now. This is. But this is all, like, very real to me. Everything that I'm saying, it's like, this is very real to me. If it resonates with people who watch your show, that is, like, an incredible feeling for me. And if it doesn't, it's like, ah, this is one of those things. I took a shot, you know, like. But it's real to me. I don't need them to think that, you know, I don't need it to resonate because it resonates with me and it works for me and it may not work for everyone, which is totally fine.

[A]

How does it feel to be having a conversation that's way more serious than the ones that you usually do when you go on podcasts to get to talk about this stuff?

[B]

I. I enjoy it. I mean, this is why, like, you know, I wanted to come on this show. I'll tell you, by the way, before I met you, I was invited by Spotify to go out to la, and they were like, oh, come to this thing. And I was like, okay, cool. They wanted me to be on some fucking panel. And I was like, all right, cool. And then I saw that you were on it. Like, two weeks prior to that, my brother sent a link of your John Bellion interview in my family's group chat.

[A]

You've been friends with him for forever.

[B]

With John? Yeah, yeah. Very loose friends. But, yeah, but. But they. They sent that link in there and like, my whole family is like, john, billion fans. And my brother was like, you should go on this guy's show. Like, this would be like a cool thing for you to be on. And then two weeks later, I get the email that you're going to be on the panel. So immediately I'm like, I'm gonna fucking talk to this dude. Like, then that's. This is when it starts, right? It starts where it's like, okay, I'm gonna be on the panel with this guy and I want to be on his show. What does it take to kind of get there? And I don't know. I don't know you. And like, at that point, like, I don't know you. I've never talked to you, whatever. So you could. I could have just been like, okay, he's kind of a fucking asshole. Like, whatever. I don't want to be on the show anyway. I don't care. But, like, we meet and we immediately, like, have this rapport. I'm like, this is great. And. And then the next day, I saw you at the other fucking thing. And then now I'm sitting here. That feeling is incredibly validating, and it's enough for me to believe in the. The intuition and the energy and that feeling of, like, just follow your gut and do those things. Say yes to shit. Put yourself in a situation where you could get, like, lucky in a way and get this opportunity. Because I can see that as, like, this. Some people could look at this as, like, you got lucky, but I'm open to that. Like, I'm putting myself in situations where I could potentially get lucky. I see luck as not a magical thing, but just opportunity that you took advantage of. That looks like luck. Because the chances of you being on that panel are. I don't even know the fucking chances, but it was there. And I could either do nothing because there was other people on there. They're not sitting here today. Like, I'm sitting here today. And it was because I was, like, sort of intentional about that. I wanted that. I wasn't going to be like, hey, buddy, can I be on your fucking show? But, like, how do you get to this point that you, like, you want to connect with someone, you think that this would be a good fit, and then it ends up being so. And now I'm sitting here. Like, that is incredibly validating. And again, that's enough for me to be like, this is how you get things done. Just. Just. Just be open to the idea, dude. Like, just be prepared for your opportunities. And then it looks like luck. But if I went there and we never spoke, or I was too shy to speak to you, or I felt like he doesn't want to, like, fuck with me. Like, he has fucking Luke Holmes and, like, these very famous people on his show. He's not gonna interview me, bro. Me of all people. Like, if I did that to myself and got in my own way, then I'm not sitting here and we're not having this conversation. Get out of your way, dude. Like, just. Just believe. The only thing that you need is, like, belief that it could happen. That was enough for me to be like, I'm gonna talk to him. He's just a little guy, you know? Like, I'm just, you know, like. But if you get in your own way like, that, you're closing yourself off. You don't have the opportunity for people to be like, oh, you got lucky. Or, like, you know, whatever the Fuck. Like, you're closing yourself off to opportunities. If you're putting. If you're getting in your own way, like, just get out. Like, even getting out of your own way will result in a lot opportunities pop up. You'd be surprised of how they do that. Just say yes, dude. Just say yes to shit. It's exciting. Once it happens to you, it's very exciting. And it doesn't happen all the time, but it will happen. Like, I say yes to shit. I mean, you can say yes. I mean, I said yes to shit for years and nothing ever happened with that. And then once things start happening, then it kind of feels like you met this person and then you met that person or whatever. And you know the networking aspect of that, bro, just be a good dude. I believe that. Or at least the people that I want to be around. If you're a good guy, they want it. They like you. They want to root for you. And it's like, I just want to. I just want to be that. I want to meet people. They think I'm a good guy. And it's like, well, I'm going to remember that. I like that kid, you know, I like the thing that he believes or the things that he says or whatever the fuck, you know, and I respect the thing that he does. I want to be around people that I respect that I like, that I think are good people. I won't surround myself with people that I think are like, like, that are like, weird and like, do, like, bad. Like, I'm not covering for you, dude. Like, you know, like, I'm not, like, I want you to be a good person because that's what I'm on. That's what I'm. That's what I'm about. Like, I don't. I don't want to be around people that I feel like are. Are negative or like, trying to hurt people or like, whatever. Like, I'm not about that at all. Like, I'm just trying to be a good dude and I want that mutual respect from people and that's it. Just simplify it. Pro. Get out of your way. I'm talking to myself, by the way, because I did that for years. Did it for years. Like, getting in my own way. Overthinking. Nope, not good enough. The example that I just gave you, I've done that numerous times of being like, why would they talk to me, bro? Why? And whatever. And who knows what could have happened with that? I refuse to do that now. I refuse to do that.

[A]

What do you do? When that fear comes up,

[B]

just, like, don't be a bitch. Like, stop. Like, what's the reason? Like, what's the actual reason? Like, what are you afraid of? Like, if. If it doesn't work out, you're in the same spot you are now. Like, how is it actually scary when you think about it in that way? Like, what is scary about that? You either open a door and there's an opportunity, or there's nothing. Shut the door, you're good. That's it. That's all it is. Like, you're opening doors. You open a door, there's an opportunity. Oh, wow, that's great. That's what I wanted. There's nothing there. You close the door. What the fuck happened? Nothing. It's just. It's neutral. The fear is, like. It actually can put you at this, like, insane disadvantage in your life if you get in your own way. Because, like, the opportunities, you're closing yourself off to them. You need opportunities. You need help from people, and you need to be, like, collaborative, but you also need to be confident and assertive in certain ways and kind of, like, put your foot in the door, you know? And, like, sometimes people will slowly shut a door. I'm on doors today like crazy, by the way. But someone would slowly shut a door, and you got to stick your foot in and, like, let it hit your foot and just kind of like, you got it. Sometimes you got to do that. You can't just, like, stand there and let someone slowly shut the door in your face. Like, be assertive. Like, know who you are. That is the most important thing. Know who you are. Be confident in who you are and really believe. Really believe yourself. But be humble about it. Like, believe. Start a fire in yourself and be like, I'm very capable. But also, like, you have to be a humble person. You have to be likable, and you're not the most important person in the world. Like, be a good guy, too, but be assertive. Put yourself out there. It's actually a lot of fun. And when you get used to failing a lot, it just. It's. That is funny. That even helps me even more than probably shit working out. Honestly, things that work out now, like, that probably plays against me like, now the more success, the more unrelatable you become. Like, I'd rather fail at this point. It gives me something to talk about, you know? So either way, it's a positive. You fail, you got a funny story. If it works out, you got the thing you wanted.

[A]

You're the man, dude. Honestly, you're one of a kind, really. One of a kind. I'm very, very glad that you decided.

[B]

Having you say that, like, it's crazy.

[A]

I'm glad that you decided to stalk me to la. I really am.

[B]

First of all, I was invited for. I don't even know if that's true, but

[A]

it's. It's. Gravitational being around you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, very electric being around you. And I can see why you've got this rabid support. It's like unbelievable energy. It's like very, very compelling. So I'm just fired up now that we're friends and I get to watch you go and do the fucking stuff. You've got cool things coming up over the next couple of years, and that's. It's the same like, fucking Bellion's doing Red Rocks, right. Later this year. And there's a difference between seeing someone's stuff online, which I hadn't. I hadn't seen your stuff. Had you seen my stuff before Bellion?

[B]

Yeah. Dude, you're fucking everywhere. What are you talking about?

[A]

Sorry about that. Well, don't forget.

[B]

Have you seen my top three podcasts?

[A]

But don't forget the fucking headlights. Right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know, the Venn diagram. And you don't watch that much YouTube and you don't spend that much time on podcast.

[B]

Hey, well, I don't. I spend time, but I don't, like, go back to the same thing, is what I mean. Okay, I'm scrolling.

[A]

The fact that I got to know John and then I get to see him do a thing, and I get to, like, root for my boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One of the greatest gifts is to become friends with someone that you're a fan of.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or to become a fan of someone that you're friends with and then you get. It's 10 times better to go and watch someone or to see one of your friends. So George Big Nose Sneezes a Lot is writing a book at the moment. And that thing. I'm watching this sucker unfold one sentence per day, Right. Like, slowly being crafted. And I'm hearing him talk about it and I'm giving him a like, oh, I don't really like that. Da, da, da, da, da. And then that thing's gonna come out, and when I read it, it's gonna be the best book that I've ever read because I'm gonna love the person that did it. And when Belian gets to do Red Rock, I'm gonna be like, that's kind of my fucking boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's My boy doing that. And that's fucking, like, show's amazing. And rah, rah, rah. And then the same thing for you. I'm really, really fucking glad that you reached out, and I think that you're awesome, and it's. It's sick to have you here, really.

[B]

Thank you, dude. I really do appreciate, like, this conversation, Like, I don't get to do it often, like, on camera or whatever, but I do ramble quite often with my friends, so.

[A]

Well, you rambled. When you. When you get fucking yapping, it's. It goes in a good direction and that's it, man. We need to do this again. Yeah, that's it. Where should people go to check out everything you do?

[B]

You can go follow me at Joe Sanigato. Good luck spelling it.

[A]

Josh Papino.

[B]

Josh Papino. Papino. Where did Pete come from now?

[A]

Don't know.

[B]

It is what it is.

[A]

Getting it worse.

[B]

And go. And the basement yard is the podcast, so go check that out everywhere.

[A]

Sick. All right, see you next time, everyone. Dude. Oh, fucking, man. Well done. If you're wanting to read more, you probably want some good books to read that are going to be easy and enjoyable and not bore you and make you feel despondent at the fact that you can only get through half a page without bowing out. And that is why I made the Modern Wisdom Reading List, a list of 100 of the best books, the most interesting, impactful, and entertaining that I've ever found. Fiction and nonfiction and real life stories. And there's a description about why I like it. And there's links to go and buy it. And it's completely free. You can get it right now by going to ChrisWillX.com books that's ChrisWillX.com books.