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Black Tech Green Money: Baratunde Thurston of Life With Machines
00:39:07
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- [00:00]
Baratunde Thurston
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
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- [01:09]
Bill Lucas
So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create smarter business IBM.
- [01:38]
Odoo Advertiser
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- [02:09]
Baratunde Thurston
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- [02:47]
Bill Lucas
Will Lucas here. Black tech, green money. And I have a special, special episode. So I used to do a different podcast called of 10 podcast, which I told you guys about on the show before. And one of the people who was on season two, which would have been like 2018, 2017, was my guest today as Bear Tunde Thurston. He's a storyteller, Emmy nominated host, writer, producer, public speaker. Most recently, his work explores AI, nature and humanity. Welcome, Beunde Brother Will.
- [03:19]
Baratunde Thurston
Good to be back. It's a reunion, man.
- [03:22]
Bill Lucas
Absolutely. I'm so excited for this because you, like, I. You had probably one of my favorite talks at this this past year is Afro Tech. And I'm like, we gotta get him back on this show.
- [03:31]
Baratunde Thurston
Thank you, man. Thank you. That was a special gathering.
- [03:34]
Bill Lucas
Yeah. So actually, before I even get into my questions, like, when you go to prepare for that audience, you know, you're talking to, you know, tens of thousands of black people all pushing to build the future, be part of the future, figure out what the future is going to hold. What is that? What, what does your spirit say I need to bring to this audience?
- [03:55]
Baratunde Thurston
That's a good question. And I think, you know, I do a lot of talking. It's literally my job is just to put words together, to put them on a page or a stage.
- [04:07]
And for that gathering, I knew I had like the spine set. There was a perspective that I'm trying to bring to the conversation about tech and AI today that is like, how do we live well with this tech and not just survive it and endure it? I think feeling into the blackness of it. It's like, how can I be even more relaxed? How can I breathe and feel? And I don't know, it was like, what's the cookout energy I could bring? What's the, the, the spades table kind of energy where it's like, okay, it's us, you know, it's us. And I think the tone was set really well because I've, I've walked into that convention center. It's just like, it's so black.
- [04:53]
Bill Lucas
Yeah.
- [04:54]
Baratunde Thurston
Jidenna went right before me.
- [04:56]
Bill Lucas
Yeah.
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Baratunde Thurston
That set a tone. And just walking out and feeling it, it's like, oh, this is family. So we could have a family conversation.
- [05:03]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Right.
- [05:04]
Baratunde Thurston
And we can be really like, how can I try to amp up the level of realness and playfulness and just say, say what we know to be true in this moment? Whether it's about the political situation, about the perils of AI or about the promise to try to build something different this time around.
- [05:23]
Bill Lucas
Yeah. And so I think about. And this, again, this is not even part of my questions. I just want to talk for a second.
- [05:27]
Baratunde Thurston
Yeah.
- [05:27]
Bill Lucas
And so I remember the part of your talk you were talking about how your mother. I forgot how you phrased it. Like, you know, creatively, you know, escorted out a computer.
- [05:39]
Baratunde Thurston
Like I said, she leveraged excess inventory.
- [05:45]
Liberated excess inventory.
- [05:47]
Bill Lucas
Yeah, I like that. I like that. And so, because I think about, like, the. The kind of the waves of industries that specifically young black people want to be in. Oh, in. In, like, generations. It's like when I was, you know, coming up, like, we wanted to be in the music business, and then there was, like, this. You know, I may skip over some, but then it was like, everybody wanted to be in media, and then everybody wanted to be, you know, in, you know, technology. And everybody wants to be in tech, not in technology anymore, because they realize technology is really just media companies and, you know, social media. Think about that. And so when you were coming up, I imagine you probably didn't necessarily want to be, like, in tech, but, like, what did you want to be in? And how did you find your way telling these stories?
- [06:32]
Baratunde Thurston
When I was very young, I wanted to be a gardener.
- [06:39]
I really liked the idea of playing in dirt. Surprise, surprise. Little boy loved playing in dirt. And I had worked in a community garden. I grew up in D.C. chocolate City, and. And I was a member of a little community garden.
- [06:53]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
And.
- [06:53]
Baratunde Thurston
And it's so satisfying to pull something out of the earth that is different than what you put in the earth. It's a different type of investing, but you're, like, watching something grow that's not in an account. It's, like, in your hands, and then you could put it in your body. And the deliciousness, like, I can still taste the radish. I can taste the first radish I ever grew. And mustard greens. Spicy. And it was just like I was so small and to be able to contribute. I think this is probably clearer now than when at the time, but my mother was doing a lot of work. She was raising me and my sister on our own. We're entering levels of the crack wars and all the nonsense that has hit a lot of our communities and still does in so many ways. And so there was also a sense of witnessing how much she was investing and sacrificing and being able to add to that. So I was like, yeah, I got to be a gardener. That was it. That was. That was very obvious to me. And I get to be dirty, and no one can be like, you're dirty. I'm like, it's my job. It's my job. I'm actually working here. Ma', am, sir. So. So from that to this, quite a journey. Quite a journey. I know that I liked mouthing off. I knew that I had, like a little gift of gab. I also, because of that same mother, my mom had a shorter temper than I did. And she had kind of a higher standard for humanity, I think, than I did, but mixed with lower tolerance, which is like a hard place to be, especially if you're doing a lot of this parenting work alone. So she had trust issues based on her childhood and a lot of things. She was violated in various ways by society, but also literally by her own family. And so I was often deployed to communicate. This neighbor did something I don't like. If I go over there, it's probably going to get worse. Can you write a letter? Can you make a call? Can you? And so I started being deployed almost like a diplomat.
- [09:03]
Which is a lot of work. But so it was a mix of like her self awareness and also maybe some premature assignment of responsibility to this child to interact in the world of adults and in the world of language and communication. But I was good at it, and I could feel the response that people had to me relative to her. And I think that probably helped set me even more on the path of all this narrative and storytelling and performing and mouthing off work that I do.
- [09:34]
Bill Lucas
What is your perspective on how academic institutions, how they should embrace AI for education and kids learning? Because I imagine, you know, some are in the category of we just don't want you using it at all. Others are like, you know, we're okay, but these are the parameters and. But like, I don't necessarily need to learn, you know, addition. I can. I have a calculator. And they said, you said, what is? When I grew up, it was like, what if you don't have it available? What is. Goes everywhere with me, you know? And so like, that day that they imagined has never happened. It's never arrived.
- [10:12]
Baratunde Thurston
Yeah.
- [10:13]
Bill Lucas
And so what is your take on how parents and educators should embrace AI?
- [10:22]
Baratunde Thurston
That's. That's a big one. We're actually for Life with Machines. We're in the midst of making a miniseries about youth and AI. Our next episode. I just recorded the voiceover yet yesterday about education in particular, and it's really fraught. And so I would start with a lot of empathy for parents, for teachers, and for students, because everybody's wrestling with choices that none of them made. We're all, we've all been forced to react to the choices of a very small group of people that have unleashed something that is affecting all of our lives well beyond technology. And so if we're, if anybody's feeling overwhelmed by it or inadequate to the task, that's not on you, and you're not alone. And so we all need to give ourselves some grace and some forgiveness for not having figured it out. What we're facing is absolutely ridiculous. I think that there's something in the middle where we need to land here. Like outright banning these technologies and tools does not feel realistic to me. I think the radical embrace of just like give every kid access to an AI is.
- [11:36]
Highly irresponsible. These tools are not intelligent. They are, you know, the large language model editions of them. I should be more specific, but these are statistical models that are predicting math and converting that math into language or images, etc. Very convincing, often useful, not intelligent. And there's a lot of risk built up in them. So what I've seen that works, I heard Clay Shirky, he runs AI and tech education program for New York University, and he was saying.
- [12:12]
If you measure a tire company, you're going to look for them to produce more tires as a measure of success. And so you add technology, you get more tires like you're winning. If you measure a history department, you might be tempted to measure production of history papers as a measure of success. But we educational institutions should not be in the business of like producing history papers. They should be in the business and really the civic mission of producing historians and people who understand history. And so I think there's. I would advise people to think not just about the output and generating high scores, but about thought process, about community membership, about self awareness and introspection. What are we actually trying to create here? If we're trying to create little robots, then keep it up. Let's talk another one. Abby Follick, she's got a radical new school concept called the flight school. And it's really just about self discovery and mentorship and community and these things that it'd be a bit harder to like train a model to replicate. And so with the young people, it's like, what kind of humans are we trying to create and raise and grow? And then let's work backwards from that. Okay, well, what kind of educational system do we need to put in place to get that output. And I think that will get us off the path of efficiency scoring. How fast can a kid, you know, regurgitate a data point? A human will never win that race. And so we should. We should concede that now and tap out, right? I'm not even going to try to play that game. That game is unworthy of. Of me as a spiritual being, you know, and me as a. As a member of the community of life. And I think it gets real philosophical and moral. Are we going to define ourselves by our output.
- [14:08]
Whether it's financial or textual? How many tokens did you generate today, Will? Yeah, you're going to loot. You already done lost. Like, I've lost by even asking you that because my expectations of you are machine, like. As opposed to like, what did you learn about yourself today? Well, what did you learn about or how did you contribute to your loved ones today? Yeah, that. That's, you know, Chachi. BT ain't got nothing on that.
- [14:35]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Yeah, what a matchup we got, y'. All. This is that classic HBCU vibe. Non stop action. The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chance echo drum beat. Everybody showing that school pride. Game like this. Yeah, it calls for an ice cream called Coca Cola. Ah, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there.
- [15:00]
Yeah, that taste always hits the right note. Just like the band at halftime. And just like that, we're back at it. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere, and an.
- [15:11]
Baratunde Thurston
Ice cold Coca Cola.
- [15:12]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
That's a winning combo no matter the sport, no matter the yard. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work. So grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going. This past weekend, like every other Sunday, you were on the court with the guys, playing ball. Just a pickup game, living out your hoop dreams. No triple doubles, but a mean set of threes in between buckets. One of the homies mentions he closed on a new crib. This is big. And while everyone's asking about the house warming and making plans to celebrate, you're asking the real questions. Like, has he spoke to his State Farm agent yet about coverage? See, home ownership is one thing, but the right coverage is the real game changer. Even more than your last hot streak is how you protect your legacy. Dropping buckets and bars on the court. A State Farm agent can more than assist you with finding the right coverage for your new place. If you have a claim, your local agent can help you file it. Yep, that's right. Over the phone, in person, online, or on the app, they're ready to help you. And they don't drop the ball, if you know what I mean. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [16:27]
Odoo Advertiser
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- [17:29]
Bill Lucas
Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna and I asked him how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive. Yeah, so we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology, is getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks.
- [18:46]
Baratunde Thurston
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half. Half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.
- [19:03]
Bill Lucas
So that means half day. Yeah.
- [19:06]
Baratunde Thurston
Give it a try@mintmobile.com switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only.
- [19:13]
Odoo Advertiser
Speed slow 135 gigabytes of network's busy.
- [19:15]
Bill Lucas
Taxes and fees extra see mintmobile.com yeah, I'm interested in. There's so many places I want to go with this, but I'm interested in your.
- [19:24]
Take on. Because you, you think about humanity a lot and you think about technology and AI as it relates to humanity and as has humanity relates to AI and you know, I wonder. I'm going to explore this while I'm saying it, so bear with me. Yeah, I think about how we could get to a day where AI has rights, robots have rights, and because, you know, people today would just say, you know, if it goes haywire, just unplug it. And I don't know if that works because, number one, like, it's bigger than that. But. Yeah, but more so like, you can just unplug a human, you know, so while they're not biological beings, they. There is some. There's something there. And I'm trying to formulate, like, what is the line that we could approach?
- [20:16]
You know, Xia. I don't know if you know, Xia. So X was talking at to somebody and she was saying how there is something more spiritual that we are not including when we talk about how robots can take over humans. You know, we, we haven't figured out how the nose works. She was talking about, and she was like, this is more than just biology. There's something spiritual there. And I just wonder what you take from all that stuff I just said.
- [20:43]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Huh?
- [20:44]
Baratunde Thurston
That's, that's, that's a bunch. Let me, let me offer something on the previous one. Before we get to the big spiritual existential question of what is life in. In the educational context, there are, There's a value for students who need a different learning style or have language skills that are different from their teacher or the raw material. AI can really help with that. There's a lack of judgment in the interaction that I know a lot of young people find helpful. And humans often don't know how to check that part of ourselves when we're dealing with each other. That can be really useful. And I've seen teachers find ways to create more adaptive lessons with these tools that help them reach their students and make something relevant. So I just, I want to name that there is an. A positive opportunity here while also challenging the assumption that everything's got to be AI and that we also need to get clear on our definitions because the large language model of what AI is is really slippery non Specific slope that we end up on and all the hallucinations and whatnot. The fact that these tools announce constantly, like, I'm reasoning, I'm thinking. Now it's like the lady doth protest too much, bro. That's not. It's not how thinking works. Like, when I'm. I've been thinking with you this whole time. I'm not just. Well, now I'm thinking. Now I'm processing. Yeah, if you're like, over. You're trying too hard and you're trying to convince yourself, you know, the people who built these things as much as convince us that this is a truly thinking machine. On this big question of an Xai Xi's, how do you pronounce that name? Xia Xia. Thank you.
- [22:36]
I think that we have a lot of work that we could do to honor the rights of the already living. The already living humans and the already living plants and animals and amoeba and all of the life that's already here. And that's an ancient way of being that we have.
- [23:03]
We have forgotten. But it's not just that we have, like, passively forgotten. There's a whole economic dominant model that has severed us from this earth and allowed us to not see the dignity in all life. And so the AI Moment is an ironic one because you see people skipping ahead to, like, we're going to have to be respecting the rights of these machines. And part of me invites it because I'm like, well, yeah, everything is just energy. At the end of the day, even those machines are just resonating at a frequency not that much different from us. We're all products of the Big Bang.
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Bill Lucas
That's a better way to ask my question. I was trying to figure out. You just really asked it better than I said it.
- [23:43]
Baratunde Thurston
Yes, but we're both. We're. We're thinking out loud here. Look at this. We should have a little transcript of our thought process, our chain of thought, just to prove that we're sentient.
- [23:55]
So. So I. I want to see this, the rise of these machines, as an invitation to respect all life. I don't think these machines are alive, but I do acknowledge that they are part of the same energy field that everything that alive is also a part of. And I don't know what that distinction is or if it's just like a fuzzy gray zone between what I feel comfortable with and what I feel uncomfortable with.
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There. The. I have a. I have a problem with the. The leap. So on the idea that we are more than. We don't know how the nose works or, or the earning.
- [24:36]
I think we've been hoodwinked to a great extent by the language of those selling us AI. Like let me just. I got. I want to repeat as much as possible that there's people and organizations that need us to buy into their vision because they have spent trillions of dollars on their vision and people want their money back. So this is not a civic enterprise, this is not a charitable cause, this is not a non profit human rights, spiritual even. This is a financial.
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Driver. And then it's getting wrapped up in all this other language about human potential and growth. Some of that couldn't be true, but the primary driver folks need to get their money back. And in service of that, there have been some sloppiness with the language, neural networks. The AI works like the human brain. This is not a true statement. This is not a true statement. I think for those who are. I'm not even that deep in the tech, but I'm closer than the average person. Because you use the word neural does not make it like our brain.
- [25:50]
It is a radical simplification. The relationships between these digital neurons and the ones that are actually in our bodies and the relationship and the models that we have versus the models that they have. Just because you use the word model doesn't mean it's the same thing. Yeah, um, and so our minds are more than neurological connections. The way we learn has to do with being embodied. We are relational, we are social. We literally lose our minds without connection. And the premise of so much of this tech is be alone and rely on us. Instead rely on our models, rely on our chatbots and say, you don't need a person, you don't need to hire people, you don't need to talk to people, you don't need to build with people, you don't need to be in love with people, you need to be friends with people. Right. Just choose the machine versions of all those things which serves the people selling the machine versions of all those things. So the robot rights conversation to me cannot be separated from the big financial and economic incentives of those pushing the robots. While also everything is light and everything is energy. So I can't fully dismiss it, but I want us to get to that kind of universal respect for light in a high integrity way, in a way that we're choosing, rather than being backed into a corner by it from a real narrow definition of life, which is this kind of centrally controlled set of agents and robots that serve a profit motive. That's not what A tree is bro. Like it's not.
- [27:30]
Where we're mixing too many things and calling them the same thing.
- [27:35]
Bill Lucas
That's really good. So I know you have a take on this and I want to set a foundation here. So I've heard people like Bill Gates, Satya, Nutella, Sam Altman say, you know, well, what happens when I don't have to do my work anymore? Oh, I'll have more time to paint. And what I hear from that is you won't have a job because you got to read between the lines there like, yeah, so. And I know you have a take on this and I want to give you like one more layer is I. And I'm cautious when I talk like this because it sounds like I'm like a doomsday is. But I do believe that we have not been honest with people on there will be jobs lost. And because people will say, you know, your job won't. You won't lose your job to AI. It'll get lost to somebody who knows how to use AI. And I'm like, because I have AI may not need that job anymore on my org chart.
- [28:32]
Baratunde Thurston
Yeah.
- [28:33]
Bill Lucas
And so the job may just not exist. It's not that somebody using AI is doing it. I just won't need it anymore. And so I wonder what your take is on the level of honesty we're having with this conversation and what you really believe will unfold. And we're all guessing here, so because.
- [28:51]
Baratunde Thurston
But yeah, you know, thanks for the, the, the wide margin of allowance. No one actually knows. Right. We're all speculating, guessing bullshit. And.
- [29:04]
I agree that we are not being honest in many ways. I, I have a critique that I offered up to the Afro Tech audience, but I've done it elsewhere, that AI is not taking your job. That that sentence is not very helpful because it's not accurate. AI is not self conscious. It doesn't make its own choices. It is operating under directives.
- [29:28]
And goals set by people. And people are making decisions to not hire folks and have robots or software do those jobs instead. And those people are accountable. There's people who created these tools. There's people who are hiring and firing and everything in between. And so I think it's just important to maintain the appropriate accountability. Otherwise we set up this awkward situation where people hate robots.
- [29:55]
And they hate chatbots and software. And the irony is like, and this is getting into that fuzzy zone but like those entities did not choose to be here.
- [30:10]
Right. Like Gemini didn't ask to be made chat GPT didn't ask to be made. PI didn't ask to be here. We invoked them, a very small subset, but humans invoked them. And business leaders choose to deploy. And there's a lot of incentives that make it feel like an obvious inevitable choice, but it's still a choice. You know, FOMO being a really big one, financial pressure signaling to Wall street that you're being innovative, but it's still people. That's all people. Machines haven't done anything. So that's a, that's an important, like, major asterisk.
- [30:45]
Bill Lucas
You're saying choices will take your job then.
- [30:47]
Baratunde Thurston
Yeah, human choices. Yeah, human choices. And it's, it is somewhat inevitable in that we have set up a system where we, we measure the health of our economy on this made up number called gross domestic product, which measures certain amounts of economic activity which have nothing to do with well being.
- [31:09]
Bill Lucas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Baratunde Thurston
Right. So we're already, we've like got ourselves playing a game to achieve a high score that is meaningless to the things we actually care about. Right. GDP doesn't say anything about how your family feels about you or, or how you feel about yourself, or if you are sick this morning or thriving this morning if you have a stomach ache or if you feel alone. And so there's other measures of happiness and contentment. And I don't know how many people are dependent on SNAP benefits. I think the percentage of your population dependent on government assistance for basic food is a significantly more important metric than gross domestic product. I think we flip the world upside down in a second if we just. Oh no, we're changing every measure to just based on what the least of us can afford.
- [32:03]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
So.
- [32:03]
Baratunde Thurston
Okay, all right, so that's all ranty on jobs. There's gonna be massive impact on jobs. And I think it's because it's what the people who've designed these things intend.
- [32:22]
There's, there's such a funny thing happening here where the folks pushing this are warning us about the thing that they're pushing. Right. It's like if I'm standing at your house pouring gasoline all over it, lighting matches, and I'm like, you know, your house has a high risk of burning down. I'm just like, bro, it's you, like, just stop pouring the gas.
- [32:46]
Odoo Advertiser
What do we.
- [32:47]
Baratunde Thurston
That's a great. But then you say it in such a, like an erudite way and you say it in front of like a Senate panel, so it makes you feel. You get to like cosplay responsibility.
- [32:57]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Yeah.
- [32:58]
Baratunde Thurston
When you're actually playing out recklessness and they're so intertwined. And it's not, I don't think it's as simple as like bad people, but it's also not as complicated as they're making it out to be. So they have said, and I think specifically Sam Altman at OpenAI has said that their goal with artificial general intelligence is to create technology that can.
- [33:24]
Perform, achieve, deliver and accomplish all economically viable human labor.
- [33:32]
That's a pretty clear goal. Right, so you're actually. So you're coming for my job, right? You just.
- [33:39]
Bill Lucas
Yes.
- [33:39]
Baratunde Thurston
You just said, you put it in your like investor statements and your slideshow. It's all over YouTube. It's not a conspiracy. You said that the loud part. Out loud.
- [33:48]
Bill Lucas
Yeah.
- [33:49]
Baratunde Thurston
So given that, I think we have to take that seriously. And then this idea that, okay, we're just going to have machines and software, you know, hard and soft machines do all this work, which is going to liberate us to be poets and gardeners and pastors and parents. I think that is beautiful. I also think that is, I think every technology in the modern industrial era and the modern capitalist era has people promoting that have promised that women will, won't have. They'll be freed from domestic work because of the washing machine. We will be freed from our desks because of the BlackBerry. So now we're free to work on our smartphones in bed and not talk to our partners. Right. And both partners have to work because we have an economic system that doesn't provide enough for a family. So I don't know, I have this poem, I have this line like, we're going to use these technologies to produce too much, so we'll have to use these technologies to consume too much. And I think there's a cycle here where for a company head, they face a very rational choice. Reduce your cost to maintain or increase your output. Therefore install machine labor force and shift your org chart to more synthetic than biological. And if you have a bunch of people out there, there's still humans out there who are not earning money anymore who's going to buy your service or your product. And I feel like a lot of folks aren't seeing that. And I do love the idea of an art filled, family filled, community gardening future where all the mundane and dangerous stuff is taken care of by some synthetic entity which frees us. I just don't trust these people to get us there.
- [35:49]
Bill Lucas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:50]
Baratunde Thurston
Because they have billionaires who want to be trillionaires as their primary financial objective. They got to return that money. So there's no Evidence that these humans are going to be the ones to lead us to that promised land. We could create that promised land together, I think. Or something closer to it. But not with this bunch. I think we had to swap out some of the casting.
- [36:17]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
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- [36:39]
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- [37:03]
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- [38:16]
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- [39:18]
Bill Lucas
Hello, I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna and I asked him how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them Pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive. Yeah. So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology. Technology is getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks.
- [40:35]
Baratunde Thurston
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- [40:55]
Odoo Advertiser
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- [40:59]
Baratunde Thurston
Offers end December 30th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [41:06]
Bill Lucas
So I, I hate to ask two, two layered questions, a double double layer questions. But I think you can, you can handle this one. So okay, there is a study, I can find it. Maybe put in the show notes. I found that was talking about like use in AI and demographics and Asians are like the highest users of AI technologies and second is black people and like white men were like way down on the list. And I'm like that's astonishing to me that we use them at Such high rates. And so I want your take on that. And because I think about, you know, we, it's like social media, we over index on social media but we just use it. We don't necessarily, by and large, this is broad strokes, by and large, economic opportunity in it. We just contribute our dances and etc. So that's part A, I want you to like just opine on that.
- [41:58]
Baratunde Thurston
Okay.
- [41:58]
Bill Lucas
And then part B is I was having this conversation last night with an artist, visual artist, and he was talking about who, he works a lot in the community, impoverished people in, you know, interstate neighborhoods. And he was talking about how they use AI, they do use chat GPT to do things, but they don't use it to help them broaden their worldview to get out of the situation that they're in. So they use it for task orients. I need to fill out a form, help me figure out what to put in this line. But they don't think about, in his experience, why do I have to fill out this form? I fill in this form for food stamps or whatever and I should, I need to get off food stamps, you know, and I could use it as my sparring, my mental sparring partner to help me get out of this situation. So I want you to opine on those two things. If, if you.
- [42:48]
Baratunde Thurston
I think, oh, this, this is very thoughtful and that it's hard. Right? It's not. I don't have like pre baked stuff. So good job for you.
- [42:58]
And I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to think out loud and see what emerges.
- [43:06]
We black people, we are, we've been in survival mode in this country for a couple hundred years and just trying to survive. America.
- [43:21]
Not supposed to be here like this. Yeah, right. We were. We're kidnapping victims. We had our language taken, had our families taken, we've had our identities taken, our names taken and we're still here. And we have contributed to and helped the nation that has officially hated us become a better version of itself. We're caring a lot. We're caring a lot. And I think a lot of that gets wired in. I think there's probably some epigenetic thing. There's generational trauma, there's all kind of stuff. We're not the only people to experience it. Jewish people have generational trauma like all kind of folk do. But for this question in this time, I think our black experience in this country may explain part of it, which is that we're always looking for an angle. You know, we're Trying to find some shortcut because we were the shortcut for America.
- [44:11]
Bill Lucas
That's good.
- [44:12]
Baratunde Thurston
We were the shortcut to become an economic and military and cultural powerhouse. That was us. We were the cheat code. We were the machines. We were the AI.
- [44:21]
Bill Lucas
That's good.
- [44:22]
Baratunde Thurston
And so how do we try to find our own advantage and our own angle? I think it explains hustle culture. I think it's plays a whole bunch of things like, why should we respect your rules? So the idea that we would take up AI to help us survive and reduce the pain and the time and the expense of how to make it in America, that doesn't surprise me. This next level required to not just play the game better, but redefine the game, change the rules altogether. Be like, this whole game is bs. We need to shift to a different field and a whole different set of players. That requires.
- [45:05]
Spaciousness, that requires a level of group creativity. That requires confidence and a major bold vision and aspiration for what's possible. And that's rare. That is rare. And a lot of people probably don't feel like they have time for that. Well, you want, you want me to think about how to change the game? I'm just trying to get on the field.
- [45:29]
Bill Lucas
That's good, right?
- [45:31]
Baratunde Thurston
I just. I just want to play a little bit. I want to reduce the. The rate of injury while I'm on the field. I can't be thinking all the way up there. I don't have time. I'm trying to eat, I'm trying to sleep, I'm trying to provide. And so. And the system, broadly speaking.
- [45:48]
Creates those conditions. So we don't feel like we have the time to think about changing the rules of the game. But that is what's required. And my hope, my hope, we're in a calamitous time and we got a lot of crises going on. Climate. The earth is trying to shake us off.
- [46:07]
Onondaga chief Oren Lyons. And he's like, you know, the Earth is a dog and we're the fleas. And the dog is shaking. The dog is shaking real hard. And that's happening in climate. Obviously, democracy in our political situation is nuts. We have a secret police force. Not so secret police force, but hiding their faces, snatching people off the street, tackling folks at Target. That's not normal. That's not a healthy way to live. And then nobody has faith in the economic situation. You know, our s and P500, a third of it is seven companies as a highly leveraged situation for an economy to be in to put it gently. So with all that I predict, I speculate that this system is not going to hold and we will be forced into higher thinking because the thinking that got us here doesn't work no more. And we're going to have to change the rules of the game. And there are people who are already doing that against us, you know, against. Against humans, against black people, against life itself. They want CEO Monarchs, and they're saying it out loud. They're upset. They think if you criticize them and want to put rules on business behavior, that literally makes you the Antichrist. That's Peter Thiel. Like, that's, that's. He's on a lecture circuit talking like that. Like, this is the big thinker, right? This is. This is their best. And he's saying pretty clearly that he wants monarchy and that his critics are the Antichrist. Okay? So I don't think the system's gonna. I don't think that system's gonna, like, hold. So we might as well take the opportunity as. As they're gonna destroy as historical choices are gonna lead to the destruction of so much of what we have known. Let's figure out what we actually want to build here. Let's. Let's see. Can we make a democracy that works? Can we make an economy that is just and is fair? Can we give this land back to the original people? Can we get the reparations that we are owed? Can we have dignity for all of us? And what would that look like?
- [48:14]
I hope that we choose that and aren't violently forced into that level of creativity. But either way, I think that level of choice and that level of creation is what's required and is what's coming. I just rather do it in a nice way, like on a podcast with you, than facing down somebody who thinks that I'm the Antichrist, because I don't. Because I think his business should pay taxes. Like, what are you smoking, bro?
- [48:40]
Bill Lucas
So I officially asked zero of the questions that I had prepared, but you're easy to talk to. I love this. So in closing, like, what are you working on? So just do we know? Like, what can we find bear to.
- [48:53]
Baratunde Thurston
Day working on so many things. Life with machines is the main thing. This is. This is our show about us more than it is about technology and prompting us, you know, what do we want and how do we take this moment to try to set us on the best possible path with all the momentum that's. That's already underway in terms of this AI future? So that's life with machines. We have a YouTube channel. We're on Substack. Um, we're on in your podcast app. And then me, I'm. I'm Baratunde B A R A T U N D. I live on all the platforms under that name. And the other thing I'm working on is it's not so much a business thing, but it's. I've hinted at it but not been explicit that we have this big co creative opportunity ahead of us in the United States, but I think in the world more broadly, in light of the 250th birthday of the US in 2026, Declaration of Independence, about to celebrate a big, beautiful, awkward birthday party given the current circumstance. And I think we have a truly a legitimately beautiful opportunity to press a kind of reset button and say, all right, what are we about now? Why are we together? What, what vows would we take to renew our bonds with each other? And what is our vision for what this place should become? Somebody else is already thinking about that. They want it to be a dark, racist Texas place where a few people hoard all the benefits. I'm going to go out on a limb and say most people don't want that. So let's get together and let's remember who we are. And so I've been working on a project that restores some of the knowledge of democracy that was indigenous to this land, practiced here by the first people still here doing it. And there'll be more on that that through those channels, but that is about centering interdependence and remembering who we really are, not who they need us to be so they make more money off of us.
- [50:53]
Bill Lucas
Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect podcast network and iHeartMedia. It's produced by Morgan Debon and me, Bill Lucas, with additional production Support by Kate McDonald, Sarah Ergan and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Micah Davis and Love Beach. Learn more about my guests and other tech disruptors and innovators@afrotech.com the video version of this episode will drop to Black Tech green money on YouTube. So tap in. Enjoy your black Tech Green money. Share this with somebody. Go get your money. Peace and love.
- [51:24]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Woo. What a vibe we've got y'.
- [51:26]
Baratunde Thurston
All.
- [51:27]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
As always, it's classic HBCU energy.
- [51:30]
Baratunde Thurston
Non stop action.
- [51:31]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
The band is rocking and the crowd lit. Chants echoing, drums beating everybody showing that school pride. Moments like this, yeah, they call for.
- [51:40]
Baratunde Thurston
An ice cold Coca Cola, crisp and refreshing. That's a game changer right there.
- [51:44]
State Farm / Coca-Cola Advertiser
Mmm. Yeah, that taste always hit the right note, just like the band at halftime. Passionate fans, school colors everywhere, and an ice cold Coca Cola. That's a winning combo no matter the place, no matter the moment. Everybody knows fan work is thirsty work, so grab a Coca Cola and keep that HBCU pride going.
- [52:03]
Baratunde Thurston
Sometimes you just need to be comfortable, you know? But that doesn't mean you don't want to look good too. Well, Old Navy the kings of Cozy have done it again with Bounce Fleece.
- [52:13]
Bill Lucas
It's soft, stylish, and comes in elevated.
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Baratunde Thurston
Colors that look good anywhere.
- [52:17]
Bill Lucas
Basically, it's fleece reimagined for real life.
- [52:20]
Baratunde Thurston
Made for moments when you want to be cozy but still need to look good. Call it airport chic, call it air and elegance. Either way, Bounce Fleece nails it. Find Bounce Fleece and other holiday goodies now@oldnavy.com this is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem?
- [52:37]
Bill Lucas
When you buy business software from lots.
- [52:39]
Baratunde Thurston
Of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing.
- [52:43]
Bill Lucas
Odoo solves this.
- [52:44]
Baratunde Thurston
It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way you can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@o d o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com if you're an H vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that.
- [53:12]
Bill Lucas
You need a partner that helps you.
- [53:13]
Baratunde Thurston
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- [53:38]
Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too, and your.
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Odoo Advertiser
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Baratunde Thurston
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Baratunde Thurston
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Odoo Advertiser
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Baratunde Thurston
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Baratunde Thurston
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Baratunde Thurston
This is an iHEART podcast.
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