The Generational Wealth Playbook: What the Rich Do Differently

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Money And Wealth With John Hope Bryant

Episode: The Generational Wealth Playbook: What the Rich Do Differently

Host: John Hope Bryant (with guest Greg Fleming, CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management)
Date: April 9, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode explores the essential strategies, principles, and mindsets that underpin generational wealth—what families like the Rockefellers do to ensure their legacy—and confronts misconceptions about wealth management. John Hope Bryant and guest Greg Fleming unpack the crucial differences between building assets and preserving wealth, why the Black community and others have historically been “locked out” of these circles, and how anyone can begin to build a lasting financial legacy. The conversation is a blend of practical advice, inspiring anecdotes, and deep insights into legacy-building, philanthropy, and economic inclusion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Rockefeller Capital Management and the Concept of the Family Office

[03:43 – 08:31]

• John Hope Bryant introduces Greg Fleming, his background, and Rockefeller Capital Management—a modern family office originally for the Rockefeller family but now serving successful families nationwide.
• Family Office Concept: Fleming explains, "We wanted to build a company in partnership with [the Rockefellers]...to be the firm that was the go-to choice for families that had created real wealth that they were hoping to sustain, like the Rockefellers, over generations." [07:18]

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2. The Rockefeller Approach to Wealth & Philanthropy

[08:31 – 10:31]

• The Rockefeller story: John D. Rockefeller Sr. started building wealth in 1882, and now the family is in its 7th generation (with 325 members alive today).
• The transition from pure wealth accumulation to transformative philanthropy.
  • Notable contributions include founding Spelman College, Rockefeller University, University of Chicago, and contributions to landmarks like Grand Teton National Park and the UN land in NYC.
• Quote: "They have a quite philanthropic spirit about giving back. The founder, John Rockefeller Sr, he made all the wealth...John Rockefeller Jr. was literally the world's first great philanthropist." — Greg Fleming [09:05]

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3. The Role of Private Enterprise and the Real Debate on Wealth Creation

[10:31 – 13:43]

• Bryant reframes the wealth discussion: "It's not about black or white or red or blue. It's about the green." [13:43]
• Most American wealth and jobs are created in the private sector, not government.
• The debate shouldn’t be for or against wealth, but about access and fairness.
• Philanthropy as a Byproduct: Many families, not just the ultra-wealthy, are passionate about giving back. Rockefeller Capital now has a dedicated Philanthropic Advisory group due to demand.

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4. Bridging Knowledge Gaps and Breaking Wealth Silos

[13:43 – 15:27]

• Bryant describes the challenge: even extremely successful Black entertainers lack access to real wealth management and remain disconnected from elite financial circles.
• Quote: "They resent the capitalist model because they think they're being intentionally locked out. They just don't know anybody in this relationship circle who's brought them in." — John Hope Bryant [14:25]
• The goal: close the information, network, and access gaps for historically excluded communities.

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5. The Bedrock: Belief in Upward Mobility and an Inclusive Economy

[18:03 – 19:39]

• Fleming highlights the American dream: "We can't have anybody left out of this belief that through their own work and effort, they can achieve a better position...That's the bedrock of our society." [18:07]
• Both speakers connect financial inclusion and trust in the economic system to overall social stability.
• Bryant: "Societies don't crater from the top down. They crater from the bottom in. When the bottom does not believe that playing by the rules pays off...they rebel." [19:39]

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6. Wealth’s Generational Architecture: “You build wealth when you sleep”

[22:04 – 22:43]

• Bryant’s key maxim: "You make money during the day, you build wealth in your sleep."
• Fleming explains how Rockefeller Capital helps clients intentionally plan for wealth maintenance across market cycles and generations.
• The distinction between simply making money and building a structured, sustainable legacy.
• Quote: "We spend a lot of time working with our families on those kinds of plans because generational wealth is intentional." — Greg Fleming [24:25]
• Trusts are established to secure assets for generations, allowing compounded growth while also providing for heirs at specific milestones.

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7. The Role and Functioning of Trusts

[30:55 – 33:15]

• Trusts are not about distrusting heirs, but ensuring your wishes and values guide asset distribution long after you're gone.
• Living off investment income (“passive income”) is key; avoid touching the principal so the legacy outlives you.
• Bryant: "All riches is a contract...when the contract ends, if your outflow exceeds your inflow, your overhead will be your downfall." [32:06]
• The “shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations” caution: the majority of wealth disappears within three generations without intentional planning.

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8. Planning for Unique Earners (e.g., Athletes, Entertainers)

[33:15 – 35:53]

• Athletes and entertainment professionals earn significant money over short careers—Rockefeller works with them to ensure they don’t outspend their earning prime.
• The university endowment model: only spend a percentage of principal to ensure future benefit—families can mirror this.

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9. Core Threats to Generational Wealth, and Habits that Build Resilience

[36:40 – 41:16]

• Lack of long-term planning/discipline, chasing trends, and assuming money will always flow “as it always has” are the biggest destroyers of generational wealth.
• Fleming: “The intention is just so important...you want to treat that like a little nest egg when you get it and then do the appropriate planning, stick to the plan on a disciplined basis...” [37:18]
• Seek professional advice and build a structure that outlasts your personal involvement and market volatility.

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10. Wealth Management Principles for Everyone, Not Just the Ultra-rich

[45:28 – 49:12]

• Bryant emphasizes: don’t get lured by “get rich quick” products; building wealth is about discipline and foresight, not flash.
• Fleming assures that core principles—planning, professional advice, sticking with good strategies—apply no matter your current level of wealth.
• Fleming: “There are always challenges in the market...There were no good old days—there were challenges no matter when you were alive...You want to have a plan with somebody...and then you want to stick with that plan.” [46:37]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Wealth and Access:
  “They resent the capitalist model because...they just don't know anybody in this relationship circle who's brought them in.”
  — John Hope Bryant [14:25]

• On Building Wealth:
  “You make money during the day, you build wealth in your sleep.”
  — John Hope Bryant [22:04]; attribution to Tony Ressler [30:15]

• On Planning and Philanthropy:
  “Intentional planning...the reason it's lasted seven generations...they set up trusts right out of the gate, trusts that are literally 100 years old for succeeding generations.”
  — Greg Fleming [24:25]

• On Trust in the System:
  “Societies don't crater from the top down. They crater from the bottom in.”
  — John Hope Bryant [19:39]

• On the Good Old Days:
  “The reality is...there were no good old days. There were challenges no matter when you were alive, right? It's only through the lens of history...”
  — Greg Fleming [46:37]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:43] – Start of John Hope Bryant’s conversation with Greg Fleming
• [07:18] – Fleming explains the Rockefeller family office model and its inclusive growth
• [09:05] – The philanthropic tradition and societal impact of the Rockefeller family
• [13:43] – Reframing the wealth debate: “It’s about the green”
• [18:07] – Fleming on the American dream and the need for opportunity for all
• [19:39] – Societal risk when opportunity is lost at the base
• [22:04] – “You make money during the day, you build wealth in your sleep”
• [24:25] – Generational planning: Trusts, structure, and compounding
• [32:06] – Bryant on cashflow, contracts, and not outliving your money
• [37:18] – Fleming on disciplined, intentional planning as the key to wealth survival
• [46:37] – Fleming on enduring volatility and the value of professional advice

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Tone & Style

Both speakers are direct, encouraging, and passionate about financial empowerment for all. They balance history and practical advice with candid, relatable anecdotes—breaking down complex concepts for everyday application while maintaining a tone of inclusion and optimism.

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Key Takeaways

• Generational wealth is not an accident; it’s intentional, planned, and constantly managed.
• Financial inclusion—and demystifying these “club secrets”—is possible for everyone with the right guidance and mindset.
• Trusts, family offices, philanthropy, and institutional-style discipline are tools available to more than just the ultra-wealthy.
• Beware quick fixes: Real wealth is built slowly, with patience and professional planning.
• Financial resilience is about discipline, intention, and learning from those who’ve done it for generations—like the Rockefellers, but applicable for anyone.

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Listen to “Money And Wealth With John Hope Bryant” for the full conversation and more actionable insights on building your own generational legacy.

Transcript

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[Lauren LaRosa]

Hey y', all, it's Lauren LaRosa with the latest with Lauren LaRosa on Black Effect. And I cannot wait to see you guys at the fourth annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. We are coming back to Atlanta, Georgia on Saturday, April 25th at Pullman Yards and it's hosted by me alongside DJ Envy and Charlamagne Tha God. We got Drink Chance with Noriega and DJ efn. We got Keep It Positive Sweetie with my girl Crystal Renee Hayslet. We got Reality with the King with my guide and my brother Carlos King. And y' all know he does reality commentary like nobody can. Now we also have Don't Call Me White Girl, the podcast I Love Mona and Club520 podcast along with the Grits and Eggs podcast. So this lineup stacked, baby. You're also going to want to check out the panels that we have lined up too. Featur have on stage Tika Sumter and John Hope Bryant, just to name a few. Of course, it's way bigger than podcast. We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with black owned businesses plus the food truck court to keep you fed while you visit us. Okay, listen, you don't want to miss this. Tap in and grab your ticket [e-mail] podcast festival.

[John Hope Bryant]

Welcome to Money and Wealth with John Hope Bryant, a production of the Black Effect podcast network and iHeartRadio foreign. And this is the Money and Wealth podcast series on the Black effect network at iHeartRadio. And this is season three. I want to thank everyone for making the last two seasons highly successful. And wherever I go, you're giving me impact. This is changing your life. This episode is going to do just that. I'm with. As you know, I bring guests on fairly irregularly. They have to be truly special, not only what they do, but who they are as a human being. Michael Milken is an example of just that kind of spirit that I've had on the show a couple times. So this gentleman is really special to me. We become good quick friends because of spirit. We just sync up. His name is Greg Fleming. So let me get into this because we don't have a lot of time. Greg Fleming is the president and CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management. I want you to focus on Rockefeller as I come back to that in a second. But let me tell you a bit about his background. They're headquartered at Rockefeller Plaza, appropriately in New York City. They specialize in wealth management, asset management, family office services, strategic advisory services tied to wealth building. In all full disclosure, me and my family are clients of Rockefeller. They primarily serve ultra high net Worth families, institutions and corporations. The firm has about just under 200 billion. My numbers are right in assets under management. At least that's the numbers that are visible. They're the modern version of a Rockefeller family office. Again, I'm gonna get into what that means in a second. He, he's known as the Wall street operators operator. He's been at, he was at Merrill lynch since night, where he was there since 1992. Same year I founded Operation Hope after the Rodney King riots. He was head of global investment banking, co president, chief operating officer. He managed 50 billion there. He was at Morgan Stanley and you know, he's, I think he's a board member of BlackRock, Council of Foreign Relations, Economic Club of New York, lecturers at Yale Law School. Greg, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited.

[Greg Fleming]

Thank you, John. It's great to be here and I've been looking forward to this given the friendship that you and I have built.

[John Hope Bryant]

Yeah, so let's jump right into this because you have limited time and unlike most of my podcasts, I'm gonna talk, I'm trying to talk very little. Rockefeller Capital Management is a roll up the of essentially the Rockefeller dynasty. Rockefeller built his wealth, you can give a little bit of background on that. And he endowed his children with assets and put some limitations, some structure about what they could do, how they could access it, really did some family wealth planning. And as I, as my memory serves me right, and you feel free to correct me, there's no embarrassment here because I'm just going from memory, if my memory serves me right, it's like seven generations of Rockefeller wealth went through this, this sort of internal structure of them having this family office for the family purposes. And at some point they said, you know, we have friends who need these same services, we have colleagues who need these same services. Let's open it up. And that allowed people like me to join the Rockefeller family. Did I get that at least partly right?

[Greg Fleming]

You got that. I think in all material respects they're in their seventh generation. There are 325 of them alive today, John, and their seventh generation. It did start with the famous John D. Rockefeller Sr. Way back in 1882. We have now built a firm, Rockefeller Capital Management, that takes care of the Rockefellers, a lot of them, and they're an important part of this. Two of them sit in our board, David Rockefeller Jr. And Peter O'. Neill. They own a piece of our business. We take care of a lot of them. So many of the family members, we give them advice like we do to your family. But we built a company. We wanted to build a company in partnership with them using their legendary name. But we wanted to take care of successful American families across the whole country. We want it to be the firm that was the go to choice for families that had created real wealth that they were hoping to sustain, like the Rockefellers, over generations, which is not something everybody who makes money thinks about. But a lot of people are worried about having it last and taking care of succeeding generations. So we wanted to build a firm that took care of, yes, the Rockefellers, but many more successful American families. And the great thing about our country is there's a lot of them.

[John Hope Bryant]

Yes. And I know Justin Rockefeller and I just met one of the younger Rockefeller, I'm sure. Great, great grandchildren. When I was in UAE four weeks ago, couldn't be nicer. Wanted to talk to me about, he says he works with you around financial literacy, the firm. And he wanted to talk to Operation Hope about bringing financial literacy into the firm's superstructure, which I was very honored because it was his idea, not mine. I mean, a very nice, humble guy, not cocky at all. Everybody I've met from Rockefeller family has been incredibly gracious.

[Greg Fleming]

John, just. Can I expound on that? Because I've been struck by the same thing, Because I've really gotten to know them in that we're in our ninth year here now, so I've gotten to know them in the last decade in depth. And the family consists of so many really nice people. And they have a quite philanthropic spirit about giving back. Because the founder, John Rockefeller Sr, he made all the wealth. And unlike other families where you keep the business in the family for generations, he sold it. And John Rockefeller Jr. His son was literally the world's first great philanthropist. So they built universities. Spelman College was founded by them. The Association Spelman, named after Laura Spelman Rockefeller, John Rockefeller senior's wife. They started Rockefeller University, where 28 Nobel prizes have been awarded in science and medicine. The University of Chicago, Museum of Modern Art, Lincoln Center, Grand Teton National Park, Acadia National Park, a lot of Jackson, Wyoming. They were the first ones there. They gave a lot of that land away. They built a hospital in Beijing in 1921 that's still there today. That's part of Peking University. So not only did they start with a lot of wealth, but they were very focused on giving back. And it's, you know, it's a family with a lot of nice people trying to make a mark in life in our country. You know, not just from A wealth standpoint. But in terms of a lot of the other things that matter.

[John Hope Bryant]

You and I of course share this passion of doing well and doing good and doing well by doing good. Also positive love for good capitalism. I have a book coming out that's called Capitalism. That's called Capitalism for All Inclusive Economics and the Future Proving of America. And it goes right into this, straight into this debate the country's having, which seems to be about either you're for or you're against wealth. And I think it's the wrong debate. And all the major employers in this country, 80% plus are private sector employers. The wealth came from the legitimate wealth came from private sector interests. The philanthropy came from private sector interests. Like Rockefeller. Yes. They get a tax benefit from it. Absolutely. And should. But you couldn't give it away unless you made it. And as other examples, clearly other than rock, than Mr. Rockefeller, John Rockefeller. But this is a good example. I didn't know the Spelman example at all. I, I try to be pretty boned up.

[Greg Fleming]

Did you?

[John Hope Bryant]

I'm gonna repeat this again. You said that Spelman College was named after John's wife. Did I get that right?

[Greg Fleming]

Yes, Laura Spelman Rockefeller. That's where spelman College in 1884. And John, to the point that you're raising, which is so important because this is true of your family and so many of our clients, they make wealth and then they want to do good things with it. I'm always talking about one of the great things about the American economy, one of the reasons it's still the world's greatest economy. Yes, we have these incredible big companies, but there are 33 million businesses in the United States that employ fewer than 500 people, employing 60 million Americans. Many of them are family owned businesses that have been in the family for years, for generations. We work with a lot of those families and they're trying to build the business, hire more people who then get a good job. So the capitalist machine in the United States is critically important for job creation and giving people something fulfilling to do in life for wealth creation and then giving back. And again, as I said, your family is typical in our client base of look, you may be on the extreme because you're so focused on philanthropy and so focused on giving back. And you do that even through all of the messaging that you do. But we actually have a group within Rockefeller Capital Management that we call Philanthropic Advisory. We demand from our clients is so great to set up foundations and to give money back to causes that they care about that we have to Have a group that provides advice to those families on how to do it well, how to set it up in a way where if you're focused on one topic, you can build the foundation and really go after that topic. Education, the environment, inequality. Our clients are going after so many of the challenging problems in society that we have to have a group help them set up the foundation so they can spend the money that way. Now, there's a lot to be said for what, you know, the model you described, which is in order to give it away, you've got to make it. And by the way, in making it, if you build a family business, you're creating jobs that are good jobs for people that they can obviously then earn

[John Hope Bryant]

their own income 100%. And I'm going to address all. I'm going to go on tour this whole year, Greg, and maybe we'll come and have a conversation there at Rockefeller. I want audiences large and small. I want to say, look, you don't have to be. It's not about black or white or red or blue. It's about the green, okay? It's not about Republican or Democrat. It's about the get it done party, not the Democratic or Republican party. When you build wealth, you want to get it done. And for folks who I relate to on the left side, not left with my left hand or it doesn't matter with my right hand, left hand, with one of my hands, I can reach into the hood to where I grew up in South Central LA or Compton or wherever and I could see the streets and I can understand their perspective. I could also go to the suites and understand their perspective. And what I'm trying to do is bridge these perspectives and to say, no, you want to become wealthy, you want to become successful. I have very wealthy entertainment friends who have regular checking accounts, regular savings accounts, like they go and they bank at the bank branch. I'm like, what are you doing? No one's ever taught them these are world class people, incredibly successful, incredibly smart and they resent capitalism model because they think they're being intentionally locked out. They just don't know anybody in this relationship circle who's brought them in and said, hey, let me sit you down, explain this to you and conver. So I'm trying to, with conversations like this to break these silos down. Because when I meet people like you, I can legitimately say you're the nicest person you ever meet. I mean, just incredibly kind and gracious and open and, and reasonable.

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[John Hope Bryant]

on a new crib.

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[John Hope Bryant]

Please tell the audience what a family office is and what you do there.

[Greg Fleming]

And, John, before I do that, I just want to emphasize what you just said, because that is, you know, I love our country and I've got three children of my own. And I think with all of the challenges that we have, it's the greatest country in the world. And an essential component of that is the belief for the individual. And we can't have anybody left out of this belief that through their own work and effort, they can achieve a better position and status in life for them, for the people close to them, for the family they're taking care of. And that is. That's the bedrock, you know, of our society. And we need, if we, as you said, and you and I talked about this the first time we met, if that becomes elusive, if we don't have, you know, the broad majority of Americans that believe that, then it's a problem. And we have a big challenge in this country. So we have to have a system where the individual can say, I'm very smart, you know, and you mentioned that I teach at Yale Law School. I went to Yale Law School, which I had a great experience in, and I had my daughter go there. And I meet so many. Your wife went there. Right, we talked about that. I meet so many people that I teach there that have come from very challenging backgrounds and taken themselves all the way through to Yale Law School. And then they're going beyond to run a law firm, to maybe be a senator to whatever they want to be. You know, those paths are still there. We need a country where the vast majority of people feel like avenues are available. And that is a critically important part of our society.

[John Hope Bryant]

That part. And society. And audience, please forgive me. There's one last preaching sentence because I'm just. Greg's lit me up here. Societies don't crater from the top down. They crater from the bottom in. When the bottom does not believe that they play by the rules, do the right thing, stop at red lights, respectful to their elders, that is going to pay off, is a reasonable shot, a success or failure on their own merit, they rebel. They say, you know what? This system is corrupt. It doesn't. No matter what I do, I can't get ahead. And without faith and trust and honesty and integrity and belief and confidence and joy, all intangibles, we're done. And as screwed up this country is, as you just said, it's the best bet I've found in the world. Let's not destroy the system, let's reformat it, refashion it, give it a software upgrade. Give capitalism a software upgrade and return it to its roots. Where somebody like John Rockefeller, who wasn't perfect, let me get that out of the way, but who net positive, did more good than bad, who built something up, yes, straight up capitalist, but then gave a lot back. Isn't there some huge. By the way, is there some huge public institution in New York? I don't want to say this and get it wrong that John Rockefeller built. I want to say Grand Central Station or some crazy thing.

[Greg Fleming]

They gave the land for the United Nations.

[John Hope Bryant]

United Nations.

[Greg Fleming]

So they gave the land for the United Nations. They built, you know, Museum of Modern Art, Lincoln Center, Asia Society, Rock Center. They built and they built a lot of that during the Depression. And they were. When they first were going to build it, they had. It was a much more diversified funding approach. John, you'll appreciate this. And then the Depression happens and they actually finished that project largely on their own, which despite the wealth that they had, was risky for them. And it became this defining part of New York City. You know, the philanthropy on the Rockefellers goes right through to the modern time. There's a neuroscience institute in West Virginia that was established about a decade ago by former Senator Jay Rockefeller, which is one of the finest of its kind in the country. So they continue to try to do things that benefit society at large. But you know, my point is that we have the John Hope Bryan family, so many families that are our clients are trying to do things like that. But you know, back to. They need to make the wealth first, but we have to have a society where the vast majority of people feel like they can be on that path and make that wealth. And it's fair, as you said, which is.

[John Hope Bryant]

And I want black families and brown families and women and minorities listening to this to know you make money during the day, you build wealth in your sleep. Once you make that money through that get rich through that contract, take some of that riches and turn it into a wealth creation, which you do it. You only build wealth at night and when you're sleep so you can build enough wealth to take care of your own lifestyle, take care of your. The generation follows you and give something back. We need to be philanthropists, we need to be building institutions in our communities like they have done Rockefeller's family has done, and scale that model again. I've done this wrong. I'm so excited about meeting with you on this interview. I've interrupted you five times.

[Greg Fleming]

Well, but now you led me back to it though, just there, because they're making money at night. Let me talk about what we do at Rockefeller Capital Management. We help our clients make money at night. They've got wealth. We what our job is to work with them on what do they want to do with the wealth. You know, one of the things, John, you've asked me about in the past is what's the difference between building assets and actually, you know, a, you know, generating wealth over generations? And a lot of that is about intent. You know, are you just, you know, earning money and building assets and there's not a larger plan and, you know, you might then spend beyond your means or you might be, you know, not focused on earning the money at night. What we work with our families on is what do they want to do with the wealth that they either have or are still creating? What's the long term plan? We help them build the plan. We help them with a diversified set of investments that will ensure that whatever happens in market cycles. Because a lot of people that are new to markets, you know, there are things that pop up that, you know, somebody might want to chase, but that may not be the right thing. And it may go, John, you and I have lived this over three, four decades. It may go as fast as it came. Something that looked like a great new product. And so we're working with clients on a detailed long term plan. They want to get here. You know, they want somebody's created a fair amount of wealth in generation one through working as hard as you or I have. And they would like the generations to be able to be educated for free or whatever it is. We work with them on the plan to have the wealth sustained and say, okay, if you want to have a plan to take care of succeeding generations, this is the kind of wealth you can spend in your lifetime. This is what's available to you. But we're going to build some of this so that your grandchildren are attending these schools and the tuition is taken care of. So what a family office effectively is, it starts with, you know, a certain level of wealth in order to have the family office that could be first generation. And there's still a lot of first generation wealth created in this country. Or it could be a second or third generation or in the Rockefeller's case, seventh generation. And then there's a lot of planning with, you know, my team, which is very good at this, on, you know, investments, yes, of course, but also taxes. Do you want philanthropy? What kind? How much? If you've created a lot of wealth, and you're still creating more. How much is going to be for this generation and maybe the next one, the kids? And do you want to start thinking about the generation after that? We spend a lot of time working with our families on those kinds of plans because generational wealth is intentional. John Rockefeller Sr. Had a tremendous amount of wealth, but you still could have consumed it all. It might have taken a generation or two, but it's lasted seven generations for a reason. The reason it's lasted seven generations, which is a long time and a lot of people. And as John said, you called it up front, seventh generation, 325 people alive in the seventh generation. So this wealth is taking care of hundreds and hundreds of people if that's going to happen over that amount of time. They were intentional up front. They set up trust right out of the gate, trusts that are literally 100 years old for succeeding generations. So the money stayed in trust. And then, John, your point? It was making money at night. It was invested. You couldn't pull it out. It got bigger. And then at some point, the trust is broken. And that generation benefits from the trust, or maybe part of it goes to that generation. It breaks over two generations. But they did a lot of planning, intentional planning, so that the wealth created by the person who started it could last a long time. I'm not sure even he thought it would be seven generations, but it's seven generations and counting. And as you said, you know, some of them, Justin and others, these fine, you know, younger people who are doing really good things in this world, wealth creation over that amount of time is intentional. It's a plan. It's, you know, each generation lives, you know, according to the means that are available for that generation. If you're going to allow the next generation to also participate. And it's that famous John Hope Bryant statement, make money at night, invest it, and let the investment, the smart investments, build it, as opposed to be, you know, consuming it, you know, and if you consume it, it's not there for later.

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[Jordan Thompson]

Conversations about volleyball go beyond the court.

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[John Hope Bryant]

By the way, I want to give proper credit if you'd like that quote. You make money during the day, you build wells in your sleep, you can use it. But let's give credit to Tony Ressler, who's a. I think the 250th richest man in the world. My business partner. Friend. Owns Atlanta Hawks. Owns, founded, whereas. Co founder of Aries Management and Apollo. He introduced me to you guys, by

[Greg Fleming]

the way, and he's built a wonderful company. Terrific guy. And I do remember you telling me that was his quote. Although I need to be more careful because I give you credit for the quote when I use it.

[John Hope Bryant]

That's okay. Dr. King used to tell. Dr. Used to tell his preacher friends, he'd hear something he liked. He said, you know, that's a great quote, Joe. I'm gonna give you credit the first three times. The fourth time is mine.

[Greg Fleming]

He was just being honest. The fourth time comes around. I remember this one because of the relationship you and I have. But sometimes I'll say, this wasn't me, but I can't remember who it is. So here it is. You know, Dr. King was smart to just say, look, by the fourth time, it's. It's a fair game for everybody.

[John Hope Bryant]

So there's something you said. There's a number of things you said that, that are positively triggering. But let me. So let me break something, a couple things down so people are listening to this and go, wait a minute. The money's in a trust. Does that mean he didn't trust his heirs? We're not going to get into John Rockefeller's head. But I have a trust, okay? And my trust is so that I trust that what I built is going to go where I wanted to go and not where somebody else decides is going to go when I'm gone. So it's a trust that allows me to direct and structure my legacy in any way I see fit and organize my assets. There's also tax planning involved with the trust and money management. There's tax planning that. There's tax benefits to philanthropy, by the way. So all these things work together. So when you're getting. When he's built, when Greg and his team are building wealth for you and they're locking up those assets so people can't take the principal, you don't want to spend the principal if you can at all afford not to. You're getting the. You want to live on the residual income if you can, so the money is thrown off from the investments. You want to find a way to live on that. So if you have a $5 million investment pool, maybe if you're lucky, you'll get half a million dollars a year and what's called passive income. And you live on that. And you're not touching the principle. A lot of people make that money in a NBA contract, NFL contract, whatever. The thing is, because all riches is a contract. And when the contract ends, if your outflow exceeds your inflow, your overhead will be your downfall. So even if you're making $5 million a year, if that money stops, you're still spending $3 million a year or four, you're broke within a short period of time. You got to have enough wealth that's created, that's subsidizing the vast majority of your lifestyle. And that's what Greg's trying to explain with creating an environment. Well, that's what John Rockefeller, I believe, was trying to do. And everybody who has built wealth, you're trying to create a situation where you're not in this ethos. First generation makes it, second generation spends it, third generation loses it. And that's as old, that's 6,000 year old doctrine. And it's nothing to do with race. It's global.

[Greg Fleming]

It is. And John, you know, we actually work with quite a few athletes helping them plan because, you know, an athlete might have multiple great careers, you know, like, you know, Derek Jeter's on our board and is having a great business career after his baseball career. But a lot of the earnings power for a lot of athletes is in those years and there's a lot of demands on the money during that time. So we do a lot of work with athletes where we help with planning so that when they retire, that money is available to them and potentially to their heirs because of the planning they do during the years when they're playing where the paychecks are often now significant. I mean, you look at what an NBA player can get paid now, if they're quite good, or even NFL player, any of the baseball players. But you know, that can go from those levels to zero pretty quickly and you want to be ready for that on the planning. So we have, you know, a number of families led by athletes who are typically first generation, but we're doing a lot of work with them on, okay, let's look at the cash flows. They're, you know, they're at a very significant level for the, you know, the career. And then you have the years when you're particularly good, right? You come in the league, or maybe there's a league, you know, maximum, but then you have those years, then it trails off and then this is what it's going to look like. So we're taking all that money. Helping with this is what would be a good spending plan in the interim. And this is what you'll have at the end. If we put this in place and they say, I want to have that. And that's really what we're there for to help make sure that we put the plan in place, lay out the different options for them. It's ultimately their money. They're working hard, they're earning it. But they often are quite pleased with the planning process because, you know, nobody wants to get to the end of a very successful sports career now and you know, and have the paycheck starting to dwindle down and a lot of the principal gone, you know, and the ability to be the 23 year old superstar again, you know, you got one shot at that. So we do a lot of work there as well. And then just one other point for you on the trust that you raised this another great point. This is how universities set themselves up. They have an endowment, as you know, I mean, you're part of a lot of this. They have an endowment. So it might sound like an incredible number, it's a billion dollars. But if you spend, you know, $150 million a year, it's not going to be so much in, you know, five or six years. So they limit the percentage of the endowment. I'm saying this for your listeners, John. I know obviously, you know, this, the percentage of the endowment that they can spend each year, they limit it so that the principal stays there for the future generations of students that are going to be at that university. So it's really the same model for, you know, a wealthy family that wants the wealth to be sustained over time.

[John Hope Bryant]

Yes, I'm on the board of Clark Atlanta University, which is right next to Spelman in the University center, the AU Center. And we have a significant endowment. Now, that wasn't always the case. And you're right, we spend, we try to spend a very small portion of that or allow it to be spent. Should I say you want it to accumulate, you want it to compound? It wanted to build on itself and sit there and hopefully you don't have a rainy day we ever need to pull the principle. My team, I normally don't answer, I normally don't go with the scripted questions. I go with my gut and my feeling with my interviews. But my team put together, Kevin Boucher and others a really good series of questions and let me get into some of these questions and then you can answer. I'm gonna go, I'm do two At a time. Answer whatever one you like.

[Greg Fleming]

Sure.

[John Hope Bryant]

When you first question. Number one, I'm gonna do first. Two, at the time, when you advise families over time, over time horizons, what patterns have you seen attend to erode wealth over generations? And what practices most reliably build financial resilience? Now hold on to that one for a minute. Number two. Rockefeller is a name associated with legacy wealth in today's economy. What should first generation wealth builders understand more than anything else? If they want to create something that lasts for their children and grandchildren. So tackle either one of those you

[Greg Fleming]

want, I'll take them in order. The families that have created wealth that's lasted for generations, they really do a lot of things that are similar. And the ones that don't, even if, John, they start with the same amount of money, make some of the same mistakes. The ones that fail to do that, there are patterns on each side. The ones that tend to accumulate assets and then erode the wealth tend to not really have a plan for what they want to do over the longer run. They also might think, this is always going to go on and I can always make more. They might react to swings in the market. And you and I have seen this for so long. Something gets hot and they chase it and then they make a mistake and they lose a lot of money. You know, they don't have a long term plan that they stick with. And then there are other families like yours. You're intentional at this point in your career, you're intentional about what you want to do with your wealth already through the generations. So the intention is just so important and the recognition that it's very hard to create the wealth. I look at so many different people over the years and, you know, wealth comes with a lot of hard work. In a lot of cases, you want to treat that like a little nest egg when you get it and then do the appropriate planning, stick to the plan on a disciplined basis and allow those future generations to say, John Hope Bryant, he seemed like an incredible person. And I'm attending x University in 2170 where my tuition's covered because of him. But that's an intention up front. And you know, there are families that go in the other direction and then the wealth is eroded too early and they're not able to achieve things like that. So I really think that's the big difference there. On the, on first generation wealth builders, what I would say is, you know, find somebody who's got expertise in this. You know, we obviously do. You know, I won't be so immodest to say we're the only ones. A lot of the tools that John Rockefeller Sr. Used to help take wealth and it was a lot of wealth. But again, without great planning, it wouldn't still be here. A lot of the tools are available. And John, you were referencing this before in the tax code. There are things you can do by putting wealth in trust where that wealth can stay protected for generations down the line as opposed to necessarily going through an estate tax, which today is still north of 50%. If you put the wealth into a trust when it's got a low basis, we don't have to go through all the particulars. Today there's smart planning that you can do that's still available. So for first generation wealth builders, find the expertise and start putting the plan together so that you can protect as much of the wealth. And by the way, the government set these rules up. These are the tax rules. This is all within the tax rules. You know, there are ways to take a fortune that's made by a family and help sustain it on a longer term basis. It does require, you know, you to take assets and wealth and take it away from the current generation, maybe the next one. But that's what a lot of families protected, you know, that's what a lot of families want to do. You want to do that? I want to do that. You know, I've used the example a couple times. One of the things that I feel profoundly about is education because for me, education was the ticket and from my father and it is still for so many people in this country. And as I said, I go back to Yale Law School, I see some of the kids in these classes and they have come from a very difficult spot, sometimes not unlike where you did all the way to Yale Law School. And it's all the education. So I want to make sure that some of the wealth that I've created is there for education to give the people that are following me and it could be 100 years from now, you know, the keys to be able to go out and do it on their own. So first generation wealth builders and you know, a lot, so many of them, John, should know that there are tools available for them to create a legacy for generations if they want to do that.

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[Jordan Thompson]

about volleyball go beyond the court.

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[Jordan Thompson]

Okay, how long have we been best friends for? Since the day we met. As the League1 volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like yin and yang, vodka and tequila. You'll hear unfiltered analysis, behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan Lednecki. I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. It's like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of Love Season or just Love the game. Serving pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. God forbid we make mistakes or cuss

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[John Hope Bryant]

We've got. Yes, thank you so much for that, Greg. That was brilliant and right on target. We could talk for another hour. We got six minutes or five minutes and. But we'll do this again. Let me end with this last double set of questions. We got many more. We'll come back and do another session on this. But as I tee up these next questions, I'm going to also give you give the audience a personal perspective that I don't want the audience to think. Well, John Bryant never makes a mistake. He's the financial literacy guru, whatever they call me. You know, we've created financial literacy policy under three U.S. presidents. It's, we got the building renamed on the White House campus. We made financial literacy policy for the US still not trying to get it down in the Congress, but anyway. But I still make mistakes, I still screw up. And one of the things I try to really warn people, particularly in times like now, is stay away from shiny,

[Greg Fleming]

blingy

[John Hope Bryant]

stuff that says this is easy, nothing's easy. You're gonna get this easy quick, fast. I said that's almost a guaranteed recipe, whatever it is, for disaster. And and so here are the couple questions. A lot of people hear wealth management and assume it's only for the ultra high net worth individual. What are the core principles used by wealthy families that entrepreneurs and professionals can apply right now as they're growing and to know this is for them also because I built all my stuff, all my companies, all my institutions. I build it with the future in mind. I institution build it. From day one. My, my family office with you is going to be multiple times the size of, of where we are now because I'm in my earning period and I'm really A lot of people come to you and they were in their retirement period. I'm in my earning period. So it's a different mindset, but you build it. I built my stuff for where I'm going, not where I am or where I came from. Number two, you've seen markets in boom times, crisis and recovery. When markets are noisy. What is the framework for staying disciplined and how do you help your Clients navigate the uncertainty. These two questions, in any way you want to attack them?

[Greg Fleming]

Well, that's two things I'd say here. One is, I've been at this now for 38 years. There's. There are always challenges in the market. There are plenty today. Almost every point in my career, people feel like today seems worse than it's ever been. The reality is there's just always a lot of challenges. I mean, I've lived through so much. I was the president of Merrill lynch during the credit crisis. We had to sell it. Lots of things happen all the time. It is a big little world with a lot of human beings pushing in a lot of different directions, and things happen. And, you know, look at the world that we're in today. But that's generally been the case. You know, one of the things I joke about is, you know, a lot of people will talk about the good old days. The reality is, whenever you live, there were no good old days. There were challenges, no matter when you were alive, right? Like, it's only through the lens of history where we're like, well, that seemed like the, you know, the good old days, but there were a whole set of challenges in those days if you actually live them. So you've got to do exactly what you just laid out, John, which is there's going to be things happening in the exogenous world. There's going to be all kinds of different market moves and shocks. You want to get professional advice. If you're first generation, you want to get professional advice. One of the greatest things having professional advice does is putting a plan in place and sticking with it and staying away from things like what you said, John. This is going to make you wealthy really quickly. I've got something that you can't miss. There's so many of these lines that I've watched over the years. These are all openers for stay away from it. Don't do it. You want to have a plan with somebody who does this for a living and who does it all the time. And then you want to stick with that plan. And because the professionals, their job, when things get difficult, like in the beginning of 2022 or, you know, whatever's happening today, is to say, wait, we've got a good plan. We can tweak it at the margin, but we don't want to change it. They are paid to do that. It's just like anything else you go for advice on, you generally want to take the advice of the professional who's doing it all the time. You teed that up perfectly because it's always going to be volatile. I never do an interview. It's rarely, you know, if I go on TV or I'm doing a podcast or something or I'm giving a speech. Rarely is it against the backdrop where I don't have to say, have to think about what's going on, all the different things that are going on in the world that are creating volatility. You know, my team's like, well, they might ask you about this and this. There's never a time when they say there's nothing they could ask you about because the world is always volatile. So you want to have the professional, you want to put in place a plan with them and you want to stick with it.

[John Hope Bryant]

So we could talk forever. I'm going to respect your time and let you go and make some more money so we can have some time to talk about how to pass the wealth on. I would like you to think about when we come back. Not, I don't want. I don't want you to think about the questions I'm going to ask you now that we've done this together. Your brain and your heart are so interconnected for good. Think about what you think this audience would love, would benefit from hearing and let's have that conversation. You are a decent, caring, thoughtful human being. And as the CEO of Rockefeller Capital Management, that gives me great hope and belief and trust that your team feels the same. There's a guy who works with your name. Outlaw, isn't it?

[Greg Fleming]

Outlaw. Michael Outlaw, yes.

[State Farm Ad Narrator]

Yeah.

[John Hope Bryant]

What a great name. Another great human being. Like I really just. And all the women who are there, because I haven't mentioned any females names, but there are a lot of women there I've met. Also the place is very diverse and you have diversity on your board of directors. I even think about that. Thank you very much for this time. Thanks for joining us for money and wealth and I hope the audience got half of the encouragement in wealth of knowledge that I have from sitting with you. Michael is in. Michael and Michael. The Michaels are lucky to work for a guy that's as humble and strong as Greg Fleming. Thank you very much for joining us on Money and Will.

[Greg Fleming]

John, it was a pleasure. It's great to see you. Thank you so much.

[John Hope Bryant]

Until next time.

[Greg Fleming]

Okay, take care.

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[John Hope Bryant]

God bless Money and Wealth with John o' Brien is a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from the Black Effect Podcast network, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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[Greg Fleming]

This is an iHeart podcast guaranteed human.