Van Jones (7:04)

He's.

John Hope Bryant (7:04)

That's what he does on CNN all the time, explain somebody else's situation. So I want. I believe and I. Van does not know this. Van does not know I'm about to say this. This is all live and in the moment. We, we have not talked about this. And other than Van saying, ask me whatever you like. I believe that we are in this moment in history. Vance heard this part before. I believe we're sitting in a moment in history. But history does not feel historic when you're sitting in. It feels like another day. I believe this is the third reconstruction. Vance heard me say this before. Some of the listeners have heard me say this before. From the streets to the suites, from civil rights to civil rights. What you have not heard me say is I think we need a radical, transformational approach to the new capitalism, to the new economy, to the future. And that part, I want that. And I think if people can hear you say your vision on that part, which we have not discussed and you did not know I was going to say. But if I gave you the charge of saying what's bold and audacious, if you knew there was a future and you knew you could not fail, what would you say? What would you do?

Van Jones (8:14)

Yeah.

John Hope Bryant (8:15)

What is your vision for all of us, particularly black folks, but all of us on a go forward basis?

Van Jones (8:22)

Well, look, I mean, it's a deep question and let me, let me go backwards before I go forward. You have to ask a deep question about why, if you believe in God, if you believe in a just universe, if you believe in any kind of spirit of love or whatever you want to call it, why did black people get stolen from Africa? Brutalized, mistreated, raped, assaulted, not for a day, not for a weekend, not for a decade, not for a century, but for three centuries. Why? How is that consistent with any high spiritual understanding of anything? Why are we here as African Americans? We'll never know the answer. But you could choose to say that the West, Western civilization needed a soul, needed a moral compass, needed something within it that could keep its worst impulses and check and insist that it reach its highest goals and aspirations. And that's really what African Americans in my mind, is what we are. If you took African Americans out of this country, even just on a political policy, voting basis, this country would lurch so far into authoritarianism and despotism that you would have a menace on the planet such. Which you'd never seen before. And so we have a responsibility.

John Hope Bryant (10:04)

Back up. You've already gone deep. Explain to people what you just said. Like that was deep in and of itself.

Van Jones (10:11)

Yeah, people have to understand where I'm coming from. I'm coming from a position that black people have a special calling on our culture, on our lives and on our people, that we're special people that we represent through pain and suffering. We represent hope, we have soul, we have a moral direction. We've produced world class leaders that people around the world talk about, from Dr. King to Malcolm X, people saying we shall overcome in Eastern Europe when it's time to struggle. Something about. And the thing about that we're only 10% of a country, is only 5% of the world. So this tiny, tiny little group of people, somehow world culture revolves around us. From hip hop. Beyonce just took over country music. I mean, this tiny little group of people has produced world class culture, has produced world class literature, has produced world class political leadership. We have had one black president already, might have a second. Hard to know what is going on with this group. Now if you just see us as having, you know, Being oppressed and mistreated and victimized, then you might be justified in being mad all the time. But I see our persistence here as a blessing on the world. I think that. I think that there's something in the DNA of our culture that is about justice for all. It's about hallelujah anyhow. No matter what you do to us, we still go and praise him. No matter what you say about us, we still children of a high God. You can have the clan outside the church right now with the lynch ropes ready. We still going to be singing. You cannot steal our joy. That. That. No pressure, no diamonds is what I'm saying. The 300 years of pressure on the black community has produced diamonds. Diamonds of culture, diamonds of philosophy, diamonds of insight, diamonds of political resilience. And the world needs those diamonds now. So when I look at our community, I don't look at us as victims. I look at us as a source of necessary assets. The same way Africa has necessary. They call them rare earth minerals. Yeah, they ain't rare earth minerals. They're Africa abundant minerals. They're rare to you. They're rare to you. They're abundant in Africa. Right. In the same way Africa has necessary minerals, necessary gems, lithium, cobalt. Necessary for the AI revolution to work, necessary for the clean energy revolution to work. All. You know, there's no cloud computing those, nothing in the clouds. These are our data centers on Earth using materials from Africa. So the same way that Africa is materially necessary for the next human civilization, black people are culturally and spiritually necessary for the next human civilization. And so when you see me move, I don't move like most people that you expect. Because I'm not coming from a victim mindset. I'm just, I just, I'm happy to go talk to anybody. Republican, Democrat, rich, poor, white house, jailhouse. Because I'm standing in a tradition of greatness. I'm standing in a tradition of excellence. I'm standing in a tradition. You know, you mentioned Dr. King. Who was Dr. King, first of all, why do we call Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Jr. Because his daddy was already famous. Daddy King was already famous. You had to say Junior because his little kid came along. They had to run away from Atlanta, hide up in Montgomery to try to get his own feet under him, and did such a beautiful job when the women let the bus boycott that he winds up standing on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial at 33 years old. Yes, 33 years old. I wouldn't let 33 year old borrow my car these days. 33 year old black kid standing up there and reading a speech his staff wrote that wasn't very impressive. But thankfully Mahalia Jackson, that heard him give a similar speech six weeks earlier in Detroit. And in the Detroit speech six weeks earlier, he had a fumbling conclusion about having a dream. And Mahalia Jackson standing behind this 33 year old kid who's basically bombing. Tell him about your dream, Martin. Tell me. And you notice Dr. King stops and looks up and freestyles. He turns into Jay Z. He freestyles.

John Hope Bryant (14:42)

That's right, exactly.

Van Jones (14:45)

I mean, I mean, so you have a, so you have a 33 year old black kid freestyling of the steps of the, of the Lincoln Memorial and there's a plaque now honoring that 33 year old kid because what he, he was a radical Afrofuturist. Please understand that he was a radical Afrofuturist. The stuff he was talking about, that could have been Star Trek, that could have been Star Wars. He's talking about black kids and white kids playing together. That never happened for 300 years. He was talking about a world that had never existed. And he spoke it into existence as a radical Afrofuturist freestyle hip hop kid on the steps. Like, you know, so when you, when that's what you come from? Yes, that there's now a statue of him in a city, basically it's acknowledging him as the final founder of a democratic republic. That's right. Thomas Jefferson wasn't able to found a democratic republic. Abraham Lincoln wasn't able to found a democratic republic, George Washington, none of them. It took Dr. King, Ella Jo Baker, Fannie Lou Hamer, John Lewis, the Civil rights generation to find Andrew Young, to finally complete the work of creating a democratic republic on these shores worthy of the name. And so when you come from that, no pressure, no diamonds, you can then walk into a room with Republicans, walk into a room with Jared Kushner, walk into a room with Donald Trump, walk into a room with Wall street people as you do. Walk into a room with Silicon Valley Valley people as we both do, and sit there like an equal. Because they may have a financial blessing that our community lacks, but we have a cultural blessing, a spiritual blessing, a political blessing that is unmatched on planet Earth. So when, so then, so then now let me talk about the future. What is the future? Well, the future for black people should be how do we make Wakanda real?

John Hope Bryant (16:43)

Before we go, before we go there, let's go back, let's rewind the tape for a minute. And by the way, talking about a radical future as of Dr. King, I mean, Dr. King also very much like you, by the way, in your, in this thinking. Dr. King also was smart enough to realize that it couldn't be win lose, it had to be. And a lot of so called civil rights leaders today want it to be win, win, lose. They want them to win as somebody else to lose. That doesn't work well. So Andrew, Dr. King would march, shut down the economy. White folks in the town were going, crap, we're going crazy because their wallets were on fire. After several weeks of no economic activity because most of the folks in the town were majority black. Then he would send Andrew Young quietly behind closed doors in a business suit, take the tape down, take off your, your overalls, Andy, put your business, go meet with these hundred business leaders who have these whites only signs up, negotiate with them behind closed doors, get them to take those whites only signs down. And what people don't realize is that Dr. King never wanted Andrew Young arrested. Ever. I'm in Atlanta right now, which is the only international city in the, in the traditional south, almost a half a trillion dollar economy built on civil rights, social justice and the philosophy of Andrew Young that was mentored by Dr. King. And Dr. King never wanted Andrew Young arrested because he was his negotiator with, as he called it, the white folks and Andrew Young go and cut that deal to get the whites only signs down. And so the applause is around Dr. King and the visualization of the marching, but really it was Dr. King setting it up and Andrew Young paying it off. And so some people need to understand that the elegance.

Van Jones (18:23)

Yeah.

John Hope Bryant (18:24)

That Dr. King wasn't saying that he loved talking to. He loved everybody. He didn't love talking to everybody, he loved hanging around everybody. And he didn't necessarily love what was coming out of everybody's mouth, but what he wanted was results for our people. Now, yes, you and I have only had one major disagreement that I can remember. And I called you one day during the former president's. I don't even say his name, the former president's White House. And you were saying things. I love what you were doing, but I didn't like what you were saying. I didn't like the way you were saying, you were being, in my opinion, overly gracious. And I said, van, you can say, and I think actually you copy this, I think later on you can say that. Thank you, Mr. President, for doing this thing that was the right thing to do. But please don't praise the guy as a person because you don't. You don't know him. I don't know him. He don't even know himself. But that's dangerous because now you're endorsing him versus endorsement. Now I think that you're just being effusive. You love everybody, and of course you love the moment. But do you. Did you understand what I was saying then? Was that a correct way to differentiate that you were really work.

Van Jones (19:33)

Look, I understand what you were trying to say. I also understood my role in my position, and I understood the psychology of the guy I was dealing with.

John Hope Bryant (19:45)

Yes.

Van Jones (19:45)

And now we're getting there. Right?

John Hope Bryant (19:49)

So we're getting there.

Van Jones (19:50)

So I see myself in that situation as a pawn on the chessboard. We had our king pieces and our queen pieces that could not play forward. You couldn't have an Al Sharpton go. He represents too much. You couldn't have a Barack and Michelle Obama go, they represent too much. You could have a little black guy on CNN go, that's not. You're not. You're not. You're not risking anything and playing me forward. And if, and then you think about it, you're dealing with Donald Trump, who supposedly is the master of what you call it, the art of the deal. That's his deal. The art of the deal. So the question is, what do we need to get out of a deal? And what does he need to get out of a deal?

John Hope Bryant (20:34)

Yeah.

Van Jones (20:34)

And is there a way to get a deal that to your point is win. Win. Yeah, but that the cost. That the benefit to us is higher than the cost.

John Hope Bryant (20:43)

Yes.

Van Jones (20:44)

So I know Donald Trump needs affirmation.

John Hope Bryant (20:50)

Now, everybody, please listen to this. This is so very important. Essentially, my man Van Jones is telling you, and we've never had this conversation, but I. And I didn't understand it at this moment. He basically sacrificed himself for you and I. I know what's coming. You know what's coming. I know what's coming. This guy loves praise. Not Van Jones, the other guy, the former president loves praise. Like you and I need food.

Van Jones (21:14)

He needs affirmation. And to the point that there's a KGB agent, former KGB agent, sitting in Moscow named Vladimir Putin that has figured out that he can manipulate all of US Foreign policy simply by showing respect to this one guy. So for me, inside the four corners of the things that were of moment of importance for the Black community, which three things. One, the First Step act, which got 35,000 mostly Black people out of federal prison. And when I say. And I say 35, if I got Donald Trump to get 35 black people out of prison. I should get the Nobel Peace Bride, right? But we got 35,000 out. It wasn't just Van Jones. It was Hakeem Jeffries. It was Jared Kushner. It was a lot of people. But I was a face. I was willing to put my face against that furnace. Because what if we lost? What if we went through all that and we didn't get anything? Well, then I just look like a fool. But you still have the NAACP in position. You still have Al Sharpton in position. You still have the Obamas in position. And all you had is, like, one black dude on CNN make a fool of himself. That's not much of a sacrifice. But what if we win?

John Hope Bryant (22:33)

And you won?

Van Jones (22:36)

Now you got. Now what do you have? Now you have this. What? This is what nobody's ever done the math on. Look at the 2020 election, don't forget. So we get the First Step act done. In 2018, 35,000 people come out of prison, vast majority black.

John Hope Bryant (22:55)

Why?

Van Jones (22:55)

Because of all those crack cocaine arrests from the 80s and 90s. People still sitting there in prison. All those people came home and all.

John Hope Bryant (23:03)

You do is give a guy a little praise.

Van Jones (23:06)

All I had to do was say things that made him feel good. 35,000, all people. I see them as almost like prisons of war prisoners, of the drug war. All the 35,000 people, many of whom were still sitting there from the 80s and 90s. War on drugs, crack cocaine. All those people came home. And if that was all we did, that would be enough. But what nobody's really done the math on, what does that then create? You have a problem with the 2020 election potentially. And here's the problem. Black Lives Matter. Black Lives Matter has now created a Democratic Party that has to be for criminal justice reform. Has to be. Because Black Lives Matter will eat you alive if you're not. So what happens? You have Cory Booker comes out and he says, I'm for decriminalizing marijuana at the federal level. And nobody attacks Cory Booker for that. Why not? You have every major candidate coming out saying they're for criminal justice reform. Why? But they never get attacked. For the first time, no. Willie Horton asked for the first time. Why? Because Donald Trump had already signed off on those policies. So we took the sniper out of the sniper tower, Donald Trump, and got him down the field with the rest of us. So what does Donald Trump run on? Donald Trump runs on this issue. On this issue, say, listen, this is the issue that devastated the black community with the federal government putting black people in jail for stuff. White folks been doing it the whole time. So what happens? Donald Trump runs not as a Willie Horton attacking black people. He runs as, hey, I'm a criminal justice guy. We made it safe.

John Hope Bryant (24:44)

It may be a criminal.

Van Jones (24:47)

Look, we'll see, we'll see, but we made it. I think what people understand is by working with Donald Trump, sacrificing me is just a pundit. Doesn't matter. You're no worse off if I humiliate myself. But not only did we get those people home, Cory Booker didn't get attacked. Joe Biden didn't get attacked. In 2020, it's the only election since 1988 the Republicans did not attack Democrats on crime. We made it safe for Democrats to be Democrats on crime because we got Republicans who also were standing up saying, we gotta do something different now. Look where we are now. Here we are back. Now it's all cats and dogs and blah, blah, blah. The Republicans are back, but we created a safety for both parties to be smart on crime. And so my soul is rested now. Did I say stuff that people didn't like in my community? Yes, I did. When I said all that stuff over again, some I would, some I would. But what I was trying. I was just trying to do something, John, that hadn't been done before.

John Hope Bryant (25:47)

Yeah. There's no roadmap.

Van Jones (25:50)

And so sometimes, you know, sometimes your wheel might get in a ditch and get some mud on yourself trying to get out of it. But when we open up the car door and all them people came home, my soul is rested.

John Hope Bryant (26:00)

But let me be clear, so I want everybody to hear this. Van Jones was thanking him for his actions, not endorsing him as a human being. Correct.

Van Jones (26:09)

I'm not endorsing Donald Trump as a human being because he's mean and lies and does all kind of shit. And I've. And the thing about it is that I have said from the very beginning, don't forget, where did the term white lash come from? That was Van Jones talking about the nature of his movement. You know, what are we going to tell our kids? So. But the reason I don't stress it or go on and on about it is because I think it's beneath me.

John Hope Bryant (26:36)

Yes. No, that's why I want to cover. You're not covering it. I brought it up. All I wanted people to hear is a clear, straight, uninterrupted explanation from you what you did. And I, by the way, even I didn't get the part about taken the bullet of his ego, which I'M not sure I could have done, but in fact, I know I couldn't have done it. Just say that I would have failed at this mandate because you were trying to get a greater thing done. And by the way, let me remind everybody, the civil rights president for the last 100 years is arguably President Johnson, who signed four civil rights bills, three of which directly because of Dr. King and Andrew Young and Dr. Dorothy Hyde and all these heroes, and she Rose and John Lewis, et cetera. And one of the bills, in light of Dr. King's assassination, which is the Open Housing act, but this guy Johnson is probably has the most foul mouth before the former President, the most foul mouth of any president before since, and had interesting views on Jews, blacks and women, or Jews and women, and had interesting ways to describe black people behind closed doors. And if you had heard what he had to say back then, you would have just, you would have recoiled. You would have said, I'm not talking to you, but that what would have got us, we'd have won the battle and lost the war. Who created affirmative action? Yes, it was teed up by Kennedy and Johnson, but it's codified by Nixon. Nixon. Now, there was games being played and all that kind of stuff, and we don't matter. But the point is, nothing good comes easy in. Who signed this legislation for Dr. King's holiday?

Van Jones (28:20)

Reagan.

John Hope Bryant (28:23)

Who did more for Africa? George W. So, so, so you. I remember Andrew Young, Ambassador Andrew Young cursed me out, man. The only time he's cursed me out, I was with President. With President Bush, the sun. And I had asked him for a financial literacy bill and, and he had promised that he'd get financial literacy policy done. Eight months had passed by and I got just, you know, just distraught and Andrew, Ambassador Young saying, hi, how you doing? I don't know. This is some bs this is not gonna. He, he cursed me out. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. John, stop it. Be skeptical. Don't be cynical. Because when you're cynical, you've lost hope. This is not about you. This is about all of us. It's not. Get yourself out of this. Right. Your job is to assume that man's a good man with bad counsel. You go in there and get that man good counsel and make him look good, make this his idea, right? Now, I'm not going to say the former president is a good man, but I will say that your job to make him look good, got him to sign that legislation because there's only one client in Washington. It's the President of the United States of America. It's a little known fact amongst Washington.

Van Jones (29:27)

And let me add one thing before we move on. The other thing you have to realize too is because we're getting all the way deep with it is there are 200,000 people in federal prison right now. Well, not less than that, but there were 200,000 in that at that time who can't vote. They're not allowed to vote. They have no say. They can't march, they can't tweet. They're literally captives. And what my progressive and liberal counterparts were wanting me to do was to say I'm going to abandon them until I have a president that I like.

John Hope Bryant (30:02)

Yes.

Van Jones (30:03)

Now that could have been 4 years, 8 years, 12 years or 16 years. I didn't know how long you were going to be dealing with Detroit presidency. It could have been Trump for eight years and then Ivanka for eight. I didn't know what we're dealing with. Yes. What people were asking me to do is to say I spent 20 years working on behalf of those folks. I was in the Obama White House. After I left Obama's staff, I was in Obama's White House every week begging for help for those folks, trying to build support for those folks.

John Hope Bryant (30:33)

And by the way, it was also let go from the Obama White House.

Van Jones (30:36)

For being too far out, too liberal.

John Hope Bryant (30:40)

Right. And it's never said a bad word about President Obama. Never said a bad word about, about the folks, the senior folks. I won't name names. He stepped over mess. Not in it. Kept it moving and said, look, I did let my work stand for itself and of course.

Van Jones (30:55)

Exactly. Left the Obama White House under fire and then came back and, you know, not on payroll, but continued to work with them on criminal justice reform.

John Hope Bryant (31:03)

Yes.

Van Jones (31:04)

And so now we have a president that I don't like and president I didn't support. But he's got 200,000 souls in his hand. He could crush them all or pardon them all. I don't know what this man is going to do, but you're telling me I have to abandon those people for four years, eight years, 12 or 16, until I have a president that I like. How do I justify that to those people for whom every day is precious and can never be returned? And so I said, listen, somebody has to go. And it should not be Obama, it should not be Obama's husband. It should not be.

John Hope Bryant (31:39)

Okay, that was funny.

Van Jones (31:41)

It should not be.

John Hope Bryant (31:43)

I don't know if folks don't get.

Van Jones (31:44)

That or not, but it should not be Reverend Al Sharpen it should not be Reverend Jesse Jackson. It should not be any of our actual. Because there's, there's nothing that people at that level could get that would be worth the give. You cannot send in people at that level to stand next to him, because what can you. But you can send me. You can send me.

John Hope Bryant (32:06)

I love you. I love your humility, brother. I love you humility. And I, I'm, I'm, I'm happy. We're about to go deeper. By the way, anybody listening to this podcast, you, you've been riveted so far. We're about to go into a down an even deeper rabbit hole in a second. But I want to commend you brother, for standing in your truth, standing on principle. And you and you and I believe the same thing. I'd rather you respect me and learn to like me. Like me and never respect me. We, I believe.

Van Jones (32:37)

Amen.

John Hope Bryant (32:38)

I believe. You know, an Ambassador Young has taught me well. Talk without being offensive, listen without being defensive. Always leave even your adversary with their dignity because if you don't, they'll spend the rest of their life working to make you miserable. You and I believe the same thing. I'm one of few people of color, black people who've advised black Democratic and Republican U.S. presidents. And people will say to me, well, what is it like to go to dinner with the President, hang out this president, hang out with that President? I'll say, well, one president I like and I go to dinner. One president I respect and I go to dinner I respect more one more than I like them. I like one more than I respect and like the others. But I'm still going to dinner because President of the United States of America, there's not 12 at a time, it's just one. I brought, I brought President Bush in the South Central la, by the way, he's a nice guy by the way. People called him the devil. I was thinking was Jay Z or somebody called it, not Jay Z. I mean, sorry, excuse me, Jay Z. I love you, man. Kanye called him the devil years ago. We be people would love to get President Bush back now. I mean income, my God, please, I'm.

Van Jones (33:46)

So sorry any of them, Romney, any of them.

John Hope Bryant (33:49)

So I brought Bush to South Central LA and people talked all kind of mess about why am I bringing him there. I said, because he's the President. Let me think about this, right, by the way. And we should try to get help and support out of any place that we can because, you know, we're, you know, again, we're sitting this moment in history. Now on that point, let's pivot now to something an even deeper topic.

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John Hope Bryant (34:40)

The.

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John Hope Bryant (37:09)

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Van Jones (38:44)

Well, look, the best way I can get into it is to just talk about my new kids, my new babies. For my first marriage, I've got a boy in college, a boy in high school. Both good young men, good athletes. I was never a good athlete. They're great athletes and good scholars. But I also have these two little ones. A little girl who's two and a half, little boy who's nine months. What kind of world are they going to grow up? You have to look at it now with artificial intelligence. My daughter's first crush and my son's best friend in a few years. Might be an AI, Might be an AI. That's weird. That's not the civilization I grew up in. 30 years from now, God willing, if my daughter wants to give us grandchildren, she might open up a laptop or go into a holographic interface and use biotechnology tools to design my grandchildren. That's that civilization I grew up in heaven forbid, 80, 90, 100 years from now she might be buried on the moon or Mars because within 100 years we'll be a fully space faring civilization. That is not the civilization I grew up in. In other words, my children are going to grow up in a different human civilization than the one I was born into. The question is, will it be human and will it be civilized? Will it be human and will it be civilized? And that is for us as grown people to determine in terms of policy, in terms of philosophy, in terms of technology, in terms of the companies that we found we're not founding. You think you're founding a new company or a new firm or a new fund. No, you are co founding a new human civilization in which people will have almost godlike powers. But will they be godly? See, so this is why I said it's so important that black folk are here. Because we are going to be standing in the breach of saying how you have people who are disproportionately from one group, racially from one group, economically from one group, gender from one group. And what we know for sure is the last time one group got to determine how the whole world functioned. We have 400 years of hell colonization, slavery, environmental destruction and world wars. So you don't ever want again to have one group determine the future in that way. We need each other, number one. Number two, as we think about, okay, you listen to them. The people who are in charge of AI, the people who are in charge of quantum computing, the people who are in charge of biotech, the people in charge of space, the people who are in charge of the blockchain, they all say the same thing. They want to disrupt everything. They want to disrupt everything. They're going to disrupt this industry, they're going to disrupt that industry. I said okay, okay. That doesn't bother me because the status quo has failed my people anyway, right? But what's the plan to disrupt poverty?

John Hope Bryant (42:00)

Amen.

Van Jones (42:01)

You're disrupting everything. What's the plan to disrupt pollution? What's the plan to disrupt prisons? What's the plan to disrupt polarization? You're going to disrupt everything. But you seem to have left a few things out, which is where it's so important for people. The diamonds that all this pressure produced to step forward in our genius, to step forward in our dignity, to step forward in our wisdom and say, hey, as we create this new human civilization, let's do it in partnership. Partnership, not pity. In partnership, you have new technology, but you're going to need government Support black folks run politics. We have four black senators right now. We have a black vice president who might become president. Hakeem Jeffries is likely to be the speaker of the House. He's black. Of the top 20 cities, 10 have black mayors. The biggest. We have a black governor of Maryland right next to D.C. westmore. And the biggest, most effective caucus in the House is the Black Caucus. Black folk run politics.

John Hope Bryant (43:01)

You have to win the presidency without black people voting. Voting.

Van Jones (43:05)

Exactly. Exactly. So. So. So you're going to have. You have political needs. You have to come to the table and sit with us. Let's be partners. You have cultural needs. How is AI going to be culturally adopted? Are people going to be scared of it as Terminator? Are they going to be open to it like C3PO? Black Folk Run culture. If we say something is cool, it is cool. In South Korea. If we say something is corny, it is corny everywhere on Earth. You have to come to the table. You have to come to the table and talk with us. And lastly, you have ethical issues with AI and it turns out that the black community, whatever ratchet stuff may be going on in the shadow, in the black community, our light is as bright as any light on the earth when it comes to the black civil rights tradition, when it comes to the black church, when it comes to black spirituality. And so the three needs of AI Political support, cultural adoption, and ethical guidance. The black community is a disproportionate triple superpower in assuring that this technology winds up benefiting all and harming none. So again, we say the slogan is, we want to make Wakanda real. When you look at the Marvel superhero universe, it's the Wakandans who are the most advanced. An African nation using technology for heroic purposes. That is the cheat code in the mind of the public. What if you had a real Wakanda? People say, well, Van, now you're talking space fantasy stuff. This stuff is ridiculous, man. Shut. Shut up. 99 of black people don't know anything about AI. 99. These black children don't anything about AI what are you talking about? You're 100 correct. And 99 of white folk don't either. 99 of white children don't either. This is called equality, okay? The only equality you're ever going to see in 400 years is that we are all equally ignorant of this future that's emerging and we are equally positioned to do something about it if we decide to move first. And that's why when you came to help us In Atlanta, we did that AI Academy all Day Academy teaching, grassroots leaders in Atlanta. And you came and gave the keynote speech. As someone who's very close as you are to Sam Altman and the other great visionaries, it was a significant. And the last thing I'll say is.

John Hope Bryant (45:24)

While you're on the AI Ethics Council, by the way, myself, you, Ambassador Andrew Young, the president of Morehouse SPELMAN Clark Atlanta, Dr. French, Helene Gale, Angela Williams of the World United Way Worldwide. And we got some folks. We're not announced yet on the tech side, but it's going to be hot. And.

Van Jones (45:41)

Yeah. And so you think about that. An AI Council, you think about a Jedi Council to advise this new empire of technology that's rising. It's important that we be at the table and that our young people be focusing on that as much as focus on anything else. And the last thing I'll say is this. If you want a future where black people are successful, we cannot miss the boat on technology. And we cannot lose the only ally that we've had for the past 100 years. Who are the better people in the Jewish community? Now, listen, the Black Jewish alliance is important.

John Hope Bryant (46:14)

Okay, hold on. Everybody stop. Listen. Now, this is really important. If you left, if you have not passed out yet, you about to pass out because my man's about to drop some jewels on you. I need for you to listen. Stop. Pull off the side of the road. Tell people stop talking. Tell Pookie Nam to chill for a minute. You need to stop and listen to what Van Jones is about to say about a topic that you think you know something about, about this black Jewish. I'm gonna call it Situations. I'm gonna let him name it. Yeah, go ahead. Like your boy Jay Z. Go ahead and rap.

Van Jones (46:48)

Yeah. So look, I am. I take this very, very seriously because the Black Jewish alliance is important. Now, let me be clear what I'm talking about. There's some people who overstate this. And they pretend that there was a time, you know, in the past where all black people love Jews and all Jews love black people. That never happened. They never happened. You always had some black people didn't like Jews. You always had some Jews didn't like black people. That's not the point. The point is that the best people in the Jewish community, inspired by their cultural DNA of Repair the World. That's the core cultural DNA for the Jewish community is Repair the World. That's what the Jewish people are called to do. And the best people in the black community who were inspired by our Cultural DNA, which is justice for all. As black people all around the world, you just cannot get us away from justice for all got together and in 1909, there was a black Jewish alliance that was formed called the naacp. Why was it a black Jewish alliance? First of all, Jews were not considered white at that time. White is an elastic concept. At the time, it excluded Jews. But number two, our backs were against the wall. Both communities. You have to remember in 1909, Jim Crow, segregation, racial terror was so horrific, so barbaric, so bloody, so brutal against black people and Jewish people. It inspired Hitler. People think Hitler inspired himself. No, Hitler was inspired by what was happening in the United States.

John Hope Bryant (48:13)

He took a lot of his ideas about jamming up Jews from how blacks were being treated by America.

Van Jones (48:18)

Yeah. And a lot of his worldview. And the Afrikaners who implemented apartheid were stealing from what we were doing to blacks and Jews in the United States. And so. And there was no pathway out. Don't forget, no one had ever. The United States wasn't a democratic republic in 1776, nor was it in 1909. It was a racial caste system of former slaves and now apartheid regime. No one had ever, ever, ever in the history of the world transformed a racial caste system into a democratic republic. It never happened. And so the best people in the black community, best people in Jewish community, created the NAACP in 1909. Then in 1910, they created the organization we now call the Urban League. And then every decade after that, and we can go through that whole history, the best black folks and the best Jewish folks basically co authored and co created something you now call American democracy. What American democracy is was basically co authored and co created by black and Jewish activists, donors, scholars, lawyers, fighting side by side. And, well, if you like American democracy, think a black and thank a Jew, you're welcome. That's basically where it came from. Now what's happening is we are getting pulled apart. And. And some of those reasons make sense, some of those reasons don't make sense. But it will not be good for either community. And it won't be good for the world if at least the best black folk and the best Jewish folk can't find a way to support and help each other. You have to be very honest. A lot of black colleges, a lot of black scholarships, and a lot of black causes. When you look at the annual report, you turn it over. Those are Jewish last names. When it says Rosen, when it says Gold, they chopped the berg off. But those are still Jewish families. And also, whether you're Republican or a Democrat. It's also remarkable the way that blacks and Jews have tended to vote together as well and support causes together. And so you don't want to lose that when you don't have to.

John Hope Bryant (50:26)

You also told me that there was no. In the world is all these, you know, hundreds of ethnic groups. There's no black. There's no black Greek alliance. There's no black.

Van Jones (50:36)

There's no black Swedish alliance. There's no black Italian alliance. There's no black Irish alliance. There's no black Inuit alliance. There's no black.

Ulta Beauty Advertiser (50:43)

There's.

Van Jones (50:43)

It's just the blacks and the Jews. That's it. So.

John Hope Bryant (50:46)

And on the other side, same thing.

Van Jones (50:48)

Same thing. No Jewish, Jewish, Japanese alliance. There's no Jewish. Like, what are you talking about? So. So you basically. Look, here's what I'll say. For all the good and all the bad, black folk need more friends and fewer enemies. For all the good and bad, Jewish folk need more friends and fewer enemies. It'd be quite foolish for us to be enemies of each other when for 100 years, we always figure out some way to work things out.

John Hope Bryant (51:10)

And some would argue that there are four countries in the world who'd love for us to never get back together. Because if we get. Because if we get back together, we are a force to be reckoned with. We've changed the world together before. We could do it again. Someone argued. And by the way, I'm gonna give you credit for this. I've been. I've been stealing your stuff for at least six months on this.

Van Jones (51:30)

I steal yours all the time.

John Hope Bryant (51:31)

Dr. King used to tell pastors around him, hey, Joe, that sounded really good, that quote, you know, the third three times I use. I'm gonna give you credit. The fourth time is mine.

Van Jones (51:40)

Exactly.

John Hope Bryant (51:40)

So you said that Iran, North Korea, Russia and China would. Are four authoritarian leaderships that want to run the world and are tired of us being out front, us being America. And they're. And everybody wants to be an American, but Americans, they love for us to have a food fight against each other, tear each other up, which is what we've been funding so they can take. Because they can't win in a fair fight.

Van Jones (52:06)

You told me this. Yeah, well, I mean, I think it's important to recognize that we all know in the back of our mind that Russia, China, North Korea and Iran are messing with us. They're messing with our elections. They're messing with our social media. But we still believe that somehow my social media is correct. They mess with everybody Else's, but mine is correct. And so we have to be very careful and recognize that anytime you look at something that when you get finished, you feel really mad at one group, whether it's Republican, Democrat, Palestinian, Jewish, whatever it is, that's propaganda. Because no one group is all bad or all good.

John Hope Bryant (52:45)

That's right.

Van Jones (52:46)

All the Palestinians are not bad. They're not all good. All the Israelis are not all bad. They're not all good. All Americans are not bad and not all good.

John Hope Bryant (52:53)

All blacks are all whites.

Van Jones (52:54)

So anytime you see something, and over and over again, your algorithm is having every time now you're madder and matter at one group and you think that you're justified. That's propaganda. And so, and then why, why is it that when I open up my phone, look, I hate what's happening in Gaza night and I pray for those children and people every night. And why does my 20 year old son, whenever he looks at his phone, he sees Gaza, Gaza, Gaza, Gaza, Gaza. People dying in Haiti. No. Haiti. Gaza, Gaza. People dying in Sudan. No. Sudan. Gaza, Gaza.

John Hope Bryant (53:27)

After Nigeria.

Van Jones (53:28)

Yeah. Gaza, Gaza, Gaza.

John Hope Bryant (53:31)

Women in Afghanistan.

Van Jones (53:32)

Yeah, Gaza, Gaza. Now hold on a second. Now, Now. No, nobody. Look, I've been to the Holy Land. I was in Gaza before Hamas took over. I've been in the west bank personally. I've seen the idf, the Israeli Defense Forces treat Palestinians terribly. So nobody has to explain. I've been there personally. I know what's going on. But Gaza, Gaza, Gaza, Gaza, hold on a second. Who does that benefit? We're not on a pathway for more safety for Palestinians. We're not on a pathway for more safety for Israelis. We're certainly not on a pathway for more supportive help for black people, but it's still happening. So could it be that someone has realized the value of a black mind? Could it be that somebody has realized the value of a black mind?

John Hope Bryant (54:21)

The unopened black mind?

Van Jones (54:22)

Yeah. No. And could it be that there's somebody in Iran, there's somebody in Russia who is targeting propaganda at young black minds to make sure that they follow an agenda that is more helpful for Iran, more helpful for Russia than it is for Palestinians or Israelis or black people? I don't like my children being used by someone who has an agenda for my children's minds that I didn't ask me about. So when you have all these young black people hate Israel, almost starting to sound like they hate Jews, and nobody's asked the question, but wait, wait a second. Your young black people, you have the ear of the world. You could bring both sides together. You could listen to each side. You could be the broker, you could be the power player. But no, no, you're just going to be out here marching on one side of the issue in a country you've never seen. If somebody came to hood trying to tell you, well, we're for the Bloods and you shouldn't be for the Crips. He's like, you don't know what you're talking about. Right. But. But you're somehow now an Instagram PhD haver about a country you've never been to, and out here marching and then driving away allies for your own community. Is this a plan? Is this a plot? And shouldn't we have a plan?

John Hope Bryant (55:38)

What did Malcolm X say? We've been bamboozled. We've been tricked. We've been fooled.

Van Jones (55:43)

Exactly. But the great thing about it is because the hearts of young people, especially black people, are so open and are so passionate, so idealistic, that justice for all that core DNA and the diamonds in our community. I believe that a black community that knows who it is can use technology to heal the world, can end these divides between Muslims and Jews, can use technology to fix problems, can actually use our political, cultural and spiritual power to bring the best out in everybody. And so when you see me doing stuff that seems incomprehensible is because I am, I believe that deeply in who we are. And so, no, I'm not. No, I'm not going to cuss a bunch of people out and I'm not speaking to this person. I'll speak. No. Everybody should be blessed by our presence here, because everybody needs it.

John Hope Bryant (56:32)

Amen.

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John Hope Bryant (57:00)

The.

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John Hope Bryant (60:13)

Some features and languages will be coming over the next year.

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John Hope Bryant (60:23)

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John Hope Bryant (60:37)

Are you prepared to. The answer could be no. We never, we, we never had this conversation. But you told me something which I thought you claim you learned from me. I definitely learned from you. You told me something about. Well, first of all, let me back up. As smart as I think I am, and I think I'm relatively smart, I'm definitely nosy as hell. I learned about everything. Right. I didn't know the difference between Hamas and Palestinians until I went and did some real research and wait, wait, wait. These are not the same. These are not the same people. Hamas into Palestine and whip Palestinians ass raped and pillaged and beat and tortured and assassinated assassinated Palestinian leaders and forced them under their rule and wedged themselves into a situation between Palestine and Israel and then picked fights after they wedged themselves into there. And people don't realize, they think that when they're hearing Hamas same thing as Palestine is not. I'm sorry, I got, I just had to say that because I, you know, I even I could learn. But you have a vision of what we can agree on. Yes, you want to say something on that, but can you speak at all to what the items that you think that we can find some agreement on even in this tortured environment we find ourselves in in the world with regard to blacks. And we don't want to see any war anywhere, certainly ever, ever backwards again, ever. And Jews. Okay, Any of that.

Van Jones (62:16)

Sure, sure. Well, on the Jewish side, there's, there's five H's, there's one H that we're just going to disagree on and there's four H's we should agree on when it comes to this whole situation, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, black people are not going to support. We're not going to support that. And Jewish people should not take that personally. We didn't support W going into Iraq. We didn't support Vietnam, Dr. King and Muhammad Ali. We have black people. We're not supporting a war. So don't, don't, don't be mad. We're not going to support that. Yeah, we'll be, we'll be neutral on Ukraine just because those white folks fight. But we're not going to fight for fighting wars like this. So don't, don't ask us to stop being black. Black people do not support wars like this. But there's four other ages. There's hostages, which we came over here as hostages. Jesse Jackson went all around the world freeing hostages. Right, so. And we try to free hostages right now to U.S. prisons. So we can, we can support you. When you say you want your children home, that's not a problem. Right. There's also the hate crimes that are coming down against Jewish children.

John Hope Bryant (63:19)

I'm really standing against hate 100% with Tony Rogers.

Van Jones (63:22)

Yeah, just like, just like when there was hate crimes against the Muslims after 911 and with the Muslim ban, just like when the Asians were getting attacked after Covid. We don't support that. So we can understand your fear around hate crimes. We can support you on that. Then there's, as we said, Hamas. Hamas is not an organization that we should be supporting. Mandela supported the Palestinian cause, but he supported Fatah. He supported Arafat. He supported the plo. He did not support Hamas. Hamas was created to fight the plo.

John Hope Bryant (63:53)

That's right.

Van Jones (63:54)

You say, oh, well, you know. Yeah, exactly. We say, oh, well, Mandela is for the Palestinians. Well, hold on a second. Yeah, but which Palestinians? It's like saying you're for the Americas. Which Americans? You scared of me. Like, which Americans. So yeah, he supported Palestinians, but which Palestinians? He didn't support right wing butchers who want to impose a theocracy. He supported secular democrats who were trying to get to one person, one vote. So Hamas, young black children should not be fooled to support. Yes, we support armed struggle, but Nelson Mandela supported armed struggle. No women, no children, no kidnaps, no rapes, only soldiers and infrastructure. That was Nelson Mandela in South Africa. That was Samora Marshall in Mozambique. That was Agostino Nito in Angola. That was Emil Carter Cabral in Guinea Bissau. That was a Black Panther party for self defense. Even Malcolm X said by any means necessary. But he never, he never heard a fly. And so we have high ethics, high morals. Hamas does not. That's so, no, no, no to Hamas. And lastly, a secure homeland for Jews and for Palestinians. We, you know, we understand that people want to have a place of their own. And so no will not support this humanitarian crisis in Gaza. But we will support you on hostages. We can support you on hate crimes. We can support you that Hamas is not an example for our children. And we can say that you deserve a homeland. So that's four out of five that's pretty damn good. And then based on that, we should be able to get back to work together on opportunity agenda for everybody and a dignity agenda for everybody which is in the interest of blacks, Jews and the world. And so right now you got people being in the Jewish community now being pulled off into anti DEI and anti woke and stuff like that, which is the same way. I don't want young black kids being used by Iran for an anti Jewish agenda. I don't want Jews being used by the white nationalists for an anti black agenda. We need to come back to the table and get back to dignity, democracy and opportunity for all. That's what we've been about for 100 years and we should be about that for the next hundred. And you will never have a more important century for the two cultural superpowers of blacks and Jews to get together to fight for democracy, dignity and opportunity than this century. Because we could have a new dark ages or a new enlightenment. It could be a new dark age. And it will come down to what, as usual, what blacks and Jews do in large part. And so that conversation about that alliance, about AI and just about us, like we had our moment to be mad at everybody. But I don't think that we need 10 more, 20 more, 30 more years of us cussing out white folk and telling that they're racist. I think the ones that are going to agree have already agreed. I don't think the rest of them are coming. I'd rather spend the next 10, 20 years creating a new human civilization with our values at the center, with our genius at the center, with our magic at the center. And if I misunderstood along the way, that's the price I'm willing to pay.

John Hope Bryant (67:03)

Look, some people would call you an Uncle Tom without understanding. Uncle Tom was actually a very.

Van Jones (67:11)

He was a good guy.

John Hope Bryant (67:13)

Again, you've been bamboo. You've been tricked, you've been fooled. Please read people. Reading is fundamental. The original Uncle Tom was a baller. I mean dude. I mean this dude went to Canada and freeze. He was headed on the railroad. And then some folks manipulated that situation. You use social media that time.

Van Jones (67:36)

Yeah.

John Hope Bryant (67:36)

And movies to turn that on its face. And all anybody remembers is the black face, all that kind of stupid stuff. He had a movie producer. I didn't. He argued with me about Uncle Tom. Like I've done a movie about it. I want to tell him. You then your movie was wrong. But look, you are ahead of your time. And any leader who is worth their salt would prefer to be respected than liked. Yeah, and is even willing to not be respected because they're standing on principle.

Van Jones (68:06)

And I want to just thank you before you do. We got to close. Let me just say one thing. I would be a sellout. I would be a traitor. I would be all those negative things. If I was working with Republicans to put more black people in prison, if I was working with Republicans to put more pollution in my community, if I was working with Republicans to take education out of my community, I would be a traitor. But I'm working with Republicans, I'm working with billionaires, I'm working with Wall Street, I'm working with Silicon Valley to take people out of prison, to put solar panels in the community and to get education going for us for this new technological age. So, yes, you should ask questions. Like you said, you should be skeptical. But if a brother or a sister is working with people who you think is the enemy, but they're getting the enemy to help you, that's a different situation than somebody's working with the enemy to hurt you. And I don't think any Black people that 35,000 people came out of prison not mad at me. Those young people that you helped us educate with AI are not mad at me. And the people who are trying to keep black colleges open and black scholarships open are not mad at me for trying to keep the black and Jewish community together. And I'm happy. Look, when I say I'm happy to be misunderstood, that's bravado. It hurts my feelings. I have to be in therapy about it. I've cried tears about it. But my soul is rested. I'm at peace with what the path that I am walking. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. People may not agree. It's been very, very painful. But I've finally come to a place, John, where I believe in what I'm doing enough to be misunderstood by my own people.

John Hope Bryant (69:51)

When I show up at places of power, Van Jones is there. When I show up at places of influence, Van Jones is there. When I raise conversation with thought leaders about opinions that matter, Van Jones is brought up. When I think about somebody who is gifted $100 million. Now I've got four and a half billion dollars of economic activity, but no one gave me a thing. I had to lend that money out. But I think about who was gifted $100 million with no strings attached. There's just only one person, Van Jones. And at the time gifted by the wealthiest. The then wealthiest man in the world, who's no dummy. When I think about somebody who's standing on principle. Van Jones, who comes up to. Comes to mind When I think about somebody my wife likes, and my wife reads people really well, her life. She lights up like a Christmas tree when she sees Van Jones because she's all about love, and she knows he is, too. When I want to see a good father, I met the son. I met Van Jones, son. Young people don't play games. They mean to roll their eyes. They will roll their eyes. They disrespect their parents. They will disrespect them in public. And this man, when Van Jones is talking and he's off to the side looking at his son, looking at his dad, it's nothing but admiration and love. I mean, this guy is just like, that's my dad. Like, my dad is doing it, and rightfully so. And when I talked to him about his life, it wasn't. I didn't have to beat him in the submission. He just needed. All I do was reaffirm what you've already told him. But his. But he was respectful and considerate and just the young man that we want to see in black America. You've been a father, you've been a friend, you've been a mentor to so many. You've been a helpmate. You're a visionary. You're not perfect. You're not. You're not saying you are. That's not the point. But you're perfectly yourself. And I wish more people would stop talking about you. By the way, when I brought you Atlanta for a meeting of black men, it was packed. Everybody wanted to hear this recently. So there is no leadership without conflict. There is no progress without some. With some friction. So you can't grow without legitimate suffering and friction. So you're going to be in this crossroads where people. You're ahead of your time and people may not understand you, and that's okay, and you've made peace with that. But I want you to know that there's a lot of people rooting for you, Van Jones. And I'm. And I want people to shut up and listen.

Van Jones (72:13)

Brother, I appreciate this. Probably the deepest conversation I've ever had in public. So I appreciate you helping me get some of this stuff out. I have a lot of jelly in the jar. It doesn't always get out to your point. But this has been. You know, I don't have to brag on you. You know, you've been my leader and my teacher for a very long time and got some of these spots before I got there and made sure I didn't mess them up, so. Which I greatly appreciate. We can tell those stories sometimes as well.

John Hope Bryant (72:41)

Well, I love you, man.

Van Jones (72:43)

Love you, brother. Love you, brother.

John Hope Bryant (72:44)

It's great when two black men, two straight black men can say they love you. Right?

Van Jones (72:49)

Exactly. You say, I love you. None you can do about it.

John Hope Bryant (72:55)

I just call them, send them a note. Hey, man, I just love you. You can do about it, but take it.

Van Jones (73:01)

Yeah.

John Hope Bryant (73:01)

Look, everybody, this has been a special edition of Money and wealth with John O'Brien and my friend Van Jones. And you say, what does this have to do with money and wealth? When you. If you don't get that message, then you don't understand what wealth really is. Wealth is actually a mindset.

Van Jones (73:18)

It's a mindset.

John Hope Bryant (73:19)

It's a mindset. And I mean, we just gave you a. A mouthful of mindset. I'm gonna drop the mic with this because I. Because. Because Van Jones is very good friends with somebody I admire named Jay Z, did an album called 444, which most people don't understand. It's a financial literacy album. It's like the. It's like the Matrix and music. It's like the movie the Matrix in a. In music. And one of the clips was, I'm gonna give you a million dollars worth of game. But 999 this cost of the album, you got a million dollars worth of game. You got a hundred million for the cost of your time. And make sure it pays dividends by sharing this audio conversation in his. In video conversation with your friends, with your loved ones, with people who may not understand this man who. And when you. When you're listening, when they're listening to them, tell them to shut their mouth and open their ears. Because God gave you two ears and one mouth. So you listen twice as much as you talk. And if you don't. And at the end of it, after you don't talk for an hour, at the end of. You don't agree with fans, then shut them down. But let's stop saying, don't bother me with the facts. I've already made up my mind. That's not in life.

Van Jones (74:29)

Much love. Thank you, brother.

John Hope Bryant (74:45)

Money and wealth with John O'Brien is a production of the Black Effect Podcast Network. For more podcasts from the Black Effect Podcast network, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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John Hope Bryant (78:36)

It's like when you first light up.

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John Hope Bryant (78:45)

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John Hope Bryant (78:58)

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John Hope Bryant (79:07)

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