183. “I saved $5k for an engagement ring, but she secretly took the money”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 183. “I Saved $5k for an Engagement Ring, but She Secretly Took the Money”

Introduction

In Episode 183 of Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi, host Ramit Sethi delves deep into the intricate financial dynamics between couples, highlighting how money psychology can influence relationships. This episode features a candid and emotional discussion between Ramit, Michelle—a 33-year-old nurse burdened with substantial debt—and Matt—a 31-year-old finance professional. The conversation uncovers the challenges Michelle and Matt face as they navigate their financial struggles while aiming to build a shared future.

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The Financial Dilemma: Michelle and Matt's Story

Michelle and Matt have been in a relationship for seven years but find themselves in a "relationship limbo" due to significant financial disparities and unresolved debt issues.

• Michelle's Financial Burden: Michelle, despite having a respectable income as a nurse, carries a hefty debt load totaling $263,000, which includes credit cards, personal loans, and student loans. Her monthly debt payments amount to $2,542.

  Michelle [03:03]: "I'm worried that he's going to realize that he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible."

• Matt's Financial Stability: In contrast, Matt works in finance with a more manageable debt of $36,000, including student loans and a car loan. His fixed costs consume only $136 of his monthly income.

  Matt [01:13]: "He just follows his system."

The significant difference in their financial situations has led to tension and uncertainty about their future together.

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Deeper Dive: Money Psychology and Relationship Dynamics

Ramit Sethi investigates the root causes of Michelle's financial struggles, emphasizing the psychological aspects intertwined with her money management.

• Avoidance and Shame: Michelle openly admits to avoiding conversations about money, leading to a lack of transparency between her and Matt.

  Michelle [03:22]: "It's so embarrassed and shameful. Like, I feel like I just carry, like, you know, like this Scarlet Letter with money."

• Impact of Upbringing: Michelle shares how her upbringing under a controlling father who wielded financial power instilled a negative relationship with money.

  Michelle [35:08]: "He was like, please give me money. He was the one that paid the bills."

• Co-Signing Consequences: Matt co-signed a $15,000 loan for Michelle, unaware of the extent of her debt, which has only deepened the financial strain.

  Matt [24:34]: "I didn't see her finances or ask to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing."

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Confronting the Debt

The episode highlights a pivotal moment when Michelle and Matt confront their financial realities through a Conscious Spending Plan (CSP).

• Shocking Revelation: Upon reviewing the CSP, Matt discovers the full extent of Michelle's debt, which far exceeds his initial understanding.

  Matt [12:35]: "It's insane."

• Emotional Toll: Michelle expresses feelings of guilt and shame over her financial irresponsibility, while Matt grapples with confusion and uncertainty about their financial future.

  Michelle [13:56]: "I feel like I'm my own worst enemy when it comes to money."

• Lack of Communication: Their inability to discuss money openly has led to misunderstandings and a lack of a cohesive financial strategy.

  Matt [16:43]: "I don't even know how to start. Like, how. What would you even do?"

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Ramit’s Coaching: Building a Plan

Ramit guides Michelle and Matt through a constructive conversation aimed at rebuilding their financial foundation and trust.

• Setting Positive Intentions: Both agree to approach the conversation with positivity and a willingness to create a plan.

  Michelle [58:17]: "I'm being honest about my numbers."

  Matt [58:57]: "This conversation is going to be good because we're finally communicating about our debt."

• Identifying Goals: Michelle aspires to pay off her debt to gain confidence and value herself more, envisioning milestones like getting a dog and building a family.

  Michelle [71:26]: "I want to feel confident. Not like I'm in jail all the time. I want to feel free."

• Actionable Steps: Ramit encourages Michelle to take the lead in creating a debt repayment plan, emphasizing the importance of transparency and setting boundaries.

  Ramit Sethi [73:36]: "You make a plan. And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan I've come up with."

• Matt’s Role: Matt acknowledges his role in enabling Michelle's financial habits and expresses a desire to support her without overstepping.

  Matt [83:01]: "One of my biggest takeaways was learning about how her relationship with money has a lot of commonalities with her parents."

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Concluding Insights

The episode culminates with Michelle and Matt taking initial steps toward financial reconciliation and planning a future together.

• Michelle’s Progress: Michelle commits to practical changes such as deleting Uber Eats apps, automating loan payments, and setting aside funds for their shared future.

  Michelle [84:23]: "I deleted all the Uber Eats apps, just been a couple of days. I have not ordered any food..."

• Matt’s Commitment: Matt expresses interest in attending therapy with Michelle to enhance their financial communication and relationship dynamics.

  Matt [85:51]: "Something we haven't done is gone to a therapist together."

• Ramit’s Encouragement: Ramit emphasizes the importance of both partners engaging in open, honest conversations about money to build a "Rich Life" together, underlining that overcoming financial challenges requires collaboration and mutual support.

  Ramit Sethi [83:09]: "You would feel confident you would value yourself more."

Notable Quotes:

• Michelle [03:22]: "It's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, I think you're really the only person that can help me."

• Matt [24:34]: "I didn't see her finances or ask to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing."

• Ramit Sethi [73:36]: "You make a plan. And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan I've come up with."

---

Conclusion

Episode 183 serves as a poignant exploration of how financial struggles can strain relationships, especially when compounded by past experiences and poor communication. Through Michelle and Matt's journey, Ramit Sethi illustrates the critical need for transparency, mutual support, and proactive planning in overcoming financial challenges as a couple. By addressing both the emotional and practical aspects of money management, the episode offers valuable insights for couples striving to build a harmonious and financially stable future together.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

This January, I'm coming to a city near you. Tickets are now available for my Money for Couples Live Book Tour. Now if you love the podcast and you want to connect with hundreds of other people who are trying to improve their relationship with money, I would love to see you there. Go to iwt.com booktour and use the presale code richlife to get your tickets. Now I can tell you nothing beats the energy of being in that room and seeing couples live on stage. I'm coming to New York, LA, Chicago, SF and more. So get your [e-mail] booktour and use the presale code Rich Life on today's.

[Michelle]

Episode, I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.

[Matt]

I don't have debt like that. So seeing that now, it's just like what do I here?

[Financial Expert]

Meet 33 year old Michelle and 31 year old Matt. They've been dating for seven years and they are stuck in relationship limbo.

[Matt]

Pretty shocking just to see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

[Financial Expert]

Michelle is a nurse with a good income, but she has mountain of debt that includes credit cards, personal loan and student loans.

[Michelle]

Coming here is going to be the only shot I have because I literally don't even understand why I do it.

[Financial Expert]

Matt works in finance. To him, money is simple.

[Ramit Sethi]

He just follows his system.

[Matt]

She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable.

[Financial Expert]

Yet despite Matt's help, Michelle is paralyzed by the size of her debt. She's worried Matt is going to leave her.

[Michelle]

I'm worried that he's going to realize that like he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I' irresponsible.

[Financial Expert]

Can I help Michelle understand the root of her money problems so she can turn this around and create a rich life with Matt?

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you ever taken money from him?

[Financial Expert]

I've got Michelle and Matthew CSP in front of me getting ready for our conversation.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's take a look.

[Financial Expert]

0 assets, $47,000 in investments, 263k in debt. Since they don't have any assets, it's probably not a mortgage. It's likely student loans. Maybe there's some credit card debt, maybe a car loan. Moving down to income, Michelle makes a lot more than Matthew. But as I move down the fixed cost, I can see Michelle's debt payment is $2,542 while Matthew's is only 136, probably suggesting that the bulk of that.

[Ramit Sethi]

$263,000 debt is Michelle's. What's going on here? Okay. Overall, Matthew's numbers seem fine. Michelle's numbers are a different story.

[Financial Expert]

Investment's pretty low. Miscellaneous spending is high. Could be that she's overspending. It seems like it.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's interesting.

[Financial Expert]

Let's see what's going on on their application. We don't live together. We had to move back home because we couldn't afford it. He doesn't trust me with money. I'm very scared he won't trust me.

[Ramit Sethi]

To have kids with me.

[Financial Expert]

We aren't engaged and it's holding our.

[Ramit Sethi]

Future back from moving forward. I want to feel some self worth.

[Financial Expert]

Looks like there are a lot of factors at play. Pretty big stakes in terms of moving the relationship forward, which is stagnant because of money. We're talking about marriage, we're talking about kids.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think this is going to be.

[Financial Expert]

A pretty substantive discussion. Let's meet Michelle and Matthew.

[Michelle]

You said in one podcast, if psychologically you don't understand why you're doing it, you're going to continue doing it and like the patterns with money. And I'm literally in that position where I have no excuses for myself anymore because I don't know why. It's so big and it's so overwhelming and it's like. Like it's even bigger than me that I can't even realize it.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean? Why?

[Michelle]

Like, my relationship with money.

[Ramit Sethi]

What is your relationship with money?

[Michelle]

It's not good. It's not really existent. I've worked since such a young age. I have no money saved. I have a lot of debt. It's just not. It's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, I think you're really the only person that can help me. I want to pay off all my credit card debt, pay off all those debts first, and then also pay off my student loans. I feel like I'm constantly in debt to people because of my mistakes, and I'm. I just don't want to owe anyone anything. I'm worried that he's going to realize that, like, he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.

[Ramit Sethi]

Has anyone ever told you that you can pay off your debt? No one. Right. You can. Let's talk about money in your relationship. So how long have you been together?

[Matt]

I would say about seven years.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And I understand previously you lived together and right now you're not. How long did you live together before you both moved in with your parents?

[Matt]

So we moved in together in like November of 2022, and then we moved out in January of this year.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so basically a little over a year living together.

[Matt]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What happened that caused you to move out?

[Matt]

We came to the realization that we'll just save money living at our parents house and then hopefully one day be able to afford to buy a condo or a house or an apartment.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cool.

[Michelle]

Spending a lot, like, trying to fix the place, but it was like already kind of run down.

[Ramit Sethi]

And were you both okay moving back to your parents?

[Michelle]

No, I wasn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Why?

[Michelle]

Because I knew that it was gonna suck.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Okay. What about for you?

[Matt]

For me? They're like my roommates now, but I have no problems with them and they accept me for, you know, being able to come back. They're always trying to help me and.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, cool. I appreciate. So you moved out, you moved back to your parents. So it was you and your mom and my sister. Oh, okay. And living situation wise, how is it.

[Michelle]

The three of us?

[Financial Expert]

Yeah, it sucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, how come?

[Michelle]

Because I feel like I'm the mom, so I'm the one that cooks. I'm also the one that spends at the grocery store the most because of that. And so that's one thing. I also feel like I'm just like, like the one that they go to for everything. Like, it just always feels like I'm responsible for like my two kids, like my mom and my sister.

[Ramit Sethi]

You ever have a problem saying no in your life?

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

A lot of things, right?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Personal? Yes. Professional?

[Michelle]

Oh, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Matt]

She says no to me, no problem.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Is that true?

[Michelle]

Sometimes. I recently realized that I am a people pleaser.

[Ramit Sethi]

You recently realized? I realized it in five seconds. And what do you mean you just recently realized it?

[Michelle]

And I remember that it was something to do with like my. I don't know if it was with my. My mom, like always doing favors for them or if it was with my sister where I even like sometimes put it before even like doing something with Matt, like, I'll even be like, no, I have to do this for them. And if my sister was having like, she got out of a breakup and it really was a lot on her, I would always be there for her instead of like leaving to his house, which is like my safe space.

[Ramit Sethi]

Interesting. The space that the two of you had together was your safe space, even though the rental was not particularly great. Right.

[Michelle]

Honestly, wherever like, he is, it's my safe space.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, that's that's pretty much the nicest thing you can hear.

[Matt]

Very nice. Thank you.

[Ramit Sethi]

And yet you moved back into this tumultuous household where you are de facto the person who cooks and manages all the responsibility. What do you make of that?

[Michelle]

I don't put myself first.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Michelle]

I don't find myself worthy. I feel like when I do these things that they want me to do or if it makes their life easier, that makes me worthy, I guess. Like, it gives me a sense of worthy.

[Ramit Sethi]

Has a chance to. Maybe if I cook this one dinner, maybe if I listen to my sister's challenges with her relation, maybe if I do this and that and this, then they will respect me. Yeah. Do they?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Maybe if you give it 10 more years.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Or maybe there's a completely different way to look at this whole situation. Because while you have put yourself back in that situation, what have you taken yourself out of?

[Michelle]

My future with Matt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. And meanwhile, what's going on with your finances as you moved in? Presumably, you're saving a lot of money, right? No. Not paying rent anymore, are you?

[Michelle]

I am.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh. What? How? Who are you paying rent to?

[Michelle]

My dad.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. How much are you paying?

[Michelle]

360. 3.

[Ramit Sethi]

60. What were you paying when you and Matt were splitting it?

[Matt]

It was like 650.

[Ramit Sethi]

What? Hold on. Like, when people move in with their parents, I have no problem people moving in with their parents, but I'm like, cool, you're going to save, like, a thousand bucks a month or 2,000 bucks a month? Saving 300 bucks a month. And now you're cooking, doing all this stuff. Are you basically losing money now, living with your family?

[Michelle]

100%.

[Ramit Sethi]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Not only the relationship, the financial part of it.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What the hell's going on right now?

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I didn't know she was losing money.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I feel like I'm always losing money being there.

[Financial Expert]

Did you hear what Michelle just said? She moved back in with her family to save money, but she's actually losing money every month now, and Matt didn't even know. This is a very telling example of how money is not simply about numbers. So many of us make financial decisions because we feel we should. We feel we should save money. So we simply jump from one thing to another. I need to move back in with my parents. I need to buy a house. I should cut back on brunch. We are missing one essential thing. Actually making big financial decisions using real numbers. And if you really listen you hear why? Did you hear the words Michelle used to describe herself? I'm a people pleaser. I don't find myself worthy. Matt is my safe space. She knows something is wrong, but without knowing how to probe into it, she defaults to her worldview of not trusting herself, leading to her moving back in with her parents. I'm curious to learn more. So let's get back to how they talk about money in their relationship.

[Ramit Sethi]

When was the first time you had a real conversation about money?

[Matt]

I don't think we've ever had a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Conversation about money in seven years.

[Matt]

She doesn't really like talking about that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Matt]

And then I also don't push her on it because she'll be writing in a planner, let's say, of all her bills. I'll go over to take a peek. And she's like, no, no, no, stop. Don't look. I do keep peeking, but it's always the same thing.

[Ramit Sethi]

You go across the room and you pull out your binoculars. You go, what? What's on that?

[Matt]

Like, set up a mirror behind her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do you think that Michelle says no, no, no about you looking at her finances?

[Matt]

Probably because she's embarrassed.

[Michelle]

Yeah, I am. I've even told him I'm not ready to show you. Even though it's been seven years. It wasn't until recently, honestly, that we. I actually was upfront about it in general.

[Ramit Sethi]

You sat down and talked about the numbers.

[Michelle]

We didn't sit down and talk.

[Matt]

She filled out the csp and that's.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where I saw the number first time.

[Matt]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What was that like for you?

[Matt]

Pretty shocking. Just see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what was it like for you to do the csp?

[Michelle]

Honestly, it was very overwhelming. It was, like, depressing at the same time, just because I saw, like, the debt ratio and it was literally all mine. It's just kind of like a letdown. I don't know where I went wrong with everything or I just never started right. I guess. But it's just like a letdown. Especially now that I have, like, my, you know, adult job. And knowing that I make decent money and knowing that I have nothing to show for it is just like. It just. It just puts me down.

[Ramit Sethi]

Honestly, it's kind of interesting the way that you talk about money. Because your early 30s, right?

[Michelle]

33.

[Ramit Sethi]

In a way, it's like you're talking about money like you're 75 years old. Like, oh, I just wasted my life. I got nothing to show for it. But when I look at it, I go, you're sort of at the beginning of your career. I'm seeing a young woman who has a professional career as a nurse, maybe didn't learn about money. And you're starting off. What do you think about the difference in our perspective?

[Michelle]

I wish I would think of it like that a little more because I'd be a lot easier on myself, maybe a little more forgiving for the mistakes I've done. I feel like my own worst enemy when it comes to money, especially, like, it's something. It's so embarrassing and so shameful. Like, I feel like I just carry, like, you know, like, this Scarlet Letter with money. It's something that, like, takes a toll on me, and I feel like I judge myself based on it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you read back some of those words you just said to me? Did you catch them? Scarlet Letter. Forgiveness.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Worst enemy. Not even. Worst critic. Worst enemy. What else did you say?

[Matt]

Shame. The main one was the Scarlet Letter. I thought that was pretty interesting.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think about that?

[Matt]

Pretty brutal to compare yourself to that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Talk to yourself a lot like that about money.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And other things in life, too.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then, Matt, do you talk to yourself like that about money?

[Matt]

No. I have, like, a good system, I think, where I just, you know, get paid, pay my bills, and then whatever's left over is what I either invest or, you know, kind of save.

[Ramit Sethi]

Quite a different perspective on money, right? Shame, judgment. Scarlet Letter. And then, Matt, you use the word system doesn't seem emotional to you at all? So how did the two of you relate about money?

[Michelle]

We don't. Every time I would watch the show when it was on Netflix, I would cry just because it's so relatable. They all said stuff that I've said, and to him, he's just like, no, well, it's not that hard. You just have to pay it. And I'm always like, it's not that easy.

[Ramit Sethi]

Money's different. Why?

[Michelle]

I honestly have no idea. I'm definitely irresponsible with it.

[Financial Expert]

Notice the pattern of Michelle avoiding money conversations and ignoring money herself. When she finally confronts it, she immediately uses words of deep shame and guilt. You can see this so often in people's relationship. For example, with food, it's not as simple as telling them, just eat less or just spend less. When you truly understand the psychology involved, hearing someone talk about themselves like this always makes me sad. Think about it. Most of us would never, ever talk about our friends like this. We would never call our husbands or wives. These words. Yet some of us use these words with ourselves over and over for years, and we really start to believe it. We'll delve deeper into Michelle's money psychology after this quick break from our sponsors. I've been writing my newsletter for over 15 years and I love writing long emails that go in depth and give you lots of specific details on living a rich life. But that's a lot of copy to get right every single week. That is why my team loves using this episode's sponsor, Grammarly. Grammarly is an AI writing tool. It works with Google Docs, Slack, email, tons of other software to help you write faster and better. You should give it a shot. We love how Grammarly Premium identifies spelling and grammar mistakes, but also offers options to make your writing more impactful. It helps you with tone and structure suggestions. Basically, it helps make you a better writer. Get AI writing support that works where you work. Sign up and download for [e-mail] podcast that's G R A M M A R L Y.com podcast easier said done.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Expert]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Expert]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Expert]

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[Ramit Sethi]

Ramit now back to our conversation.

[Matt]

She just needs to be more Responsible and held accountable for herself.

[Michelle]

I always let bills pile up. And because an insurance lapse, I guess that happened back in April, I had to give my registration, like, in and so technically was suspended. And so now I technically don't have it. Like, I can't drive it for two months because of that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so what do you do?

[Michelle]

Literally rely on my parents taking me somewhere, like to my work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Michelle]

I don't go anywhere or him getting me.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's.

[Michelle]

It's only been a week with it. You know, I'm responsible for, like, people's lives at, you know, as my profession. And then it's like, hey, mom, can you get me from work? It's just kind of like, I'm not laughing at you. No, I mean, okay, it's.

[Ramit Sethi]

But let's get to the root of why it happened. You didn't file the registration, why there wasn't enough funds.

[Michelle]

Because I spent it in other stuff that I shouldn't have been.

[Ramit Sethi]

Which was what?

[Michelle]

Food ordering. Uber eats. When I get home from work, I don't want to cook anything. And then living at home, like, like I said, my mom doesn't cook, so nobody's cooking for me. So just wanting to order something.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you get?

[Michelle]

It's really depending. Maybe diner food.

[Ramit Sethi]

You order a diner food to be delivered. I can't think of a worse meal. What do you get?

[Michelle]

Pancakes.

[Ramit Sethi]

That does sound pretty good. Okay, you're a burger.

[Michelle]

If I can't make up my mind, it's pancakes and French toast.

[Ramit Sethi]

And like, how much does this cost? I do love understanding the total amount because, you know when you order like a chipotle bowl or something, it's like, I don't know, 13 bucks. And then if you get it delivered, it's like $37. But I'm like, okay, it makes sense. I'm not blaming anybody. Somebody needs to be paid for that. How much does your pancakes cost when you get it delivered?

[Michelle]

About like 20 with delivery and everything, probably. 20.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't believe that. 20 bucks?

[Michelle]

24.

[Ramit Sethi]

24.

[Michelle]

25.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like with the tip and everything for, like two pancakes?

[Michelle]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does anyone else find this funny?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

$24 for two pancakes?

[Michelle]

I know, all right? And it's all because I get home so tired, I don't want to make it for myself.

[Financial Expert]

We once ran a pilot program on food and fitness. We hired a full time personal trainer, and we helped people lose weight and put on muscle. And some people changed their entire lives using that program. But I have to tell you, the psychology of food and weight that we learned was absolutely shocking. For example, we had a student who would binge late at night and they would describe in vivid detail how they would be eating snacks at the kitchen counter, knowing they shouldn't be, and hating themselves for every second of it. That's the word they used. Hating themselves. But they just couldn't bring themselves to stop. We asked them why they did it, and they said the same thing. Michelle said, it's dumb. I know I shouldn't. I guess I just can't get control of myself. I'm irresponsible. And we said, no, we don't believe any of that. And we pushed them to go deeper, using the five whys technique. It turned out they were hungry because they'd skipped lunch. Why? Because they didn't pack a lunch. Why? Because they were late out the door that morning. Why? Because they had stayed up the night before watching Netflix. They were blaming themselves for this massive moral defect. But what we found was something much simpler and behavioral. You need to set a time to go to sleep and follow it. Now, food, of course, has so many different reasons for why we behave the way we do. It's not often as simple as this. There are often much deeper issues, and for those, I would highly recommend speaking to a trained specialist. But today, do you see the connection? And do you see how I'm doing? The same thing here with Michelle. She let her insurance lapse. Why? Because she didn't have enough money. Why? Because she orders from doordash. Why? And so on. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop assigning moral judgments to yourself and instead treat your behavior like a scientist. What am I doing? Why do I do that? Why? Why? Why? You can learn more about how to use this approach in my program. Success [e-mail] products.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so that's one. You get the $12 each. Pancakes. Fine. And then what other bills did you have?

[Michelle]

My student loans. That's a huge chunk of it. And I have my credit card debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Huh?

[Michelle]

My credit card debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's that for?

[Michelle]

A lot of dumb stuff. Like a lot of shopping, a lot of ubereats.

[Ramit Sethi]

You said shopping. You shop a lot. And you said it calms me. What does that mean?

[Michelle]

It just makes me feel like I'm not in the position that I actually am.

[Ramit Sethi]

Which is broke.

[Matt]

It distracts her from her life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you helped her with her debt?

[Matt]

Yeah, I did. I co signed a loan for her.

[Ramit Sethi]

What? How much?

[Michelle]

It was.

[Matt]

It's like 15,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

What was the loan for?

[Michelle]

Consolidating.

[Ramit Sethi]

Consolidating your debt.

[Matt]

Yeah, I'm not really sure what she did with that.

[Financial Expert]

What?

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. What's happening right now? You co signed a loan for your girlfriend, right? And did you ask, like, hey, maybe I might be open to it, but I need to see your finances and we need to make a plan. Did you say that?

[Matt]

I didn't see her finances or asked to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing. I guess I just thought she wouldn't know what she was doing.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean? She's had debt for, like, so long. She tells you about money all the time, right?

[Matt]

Well, I didn't know what kind of debt she was in. I didn't know the amount.

[Ramit Sethi]

Y'all hearing this as you talk about it? What does it sound like to you?

[Matt]

We just need to talk more.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, well, that's for sure. I mean, that's the bare minimum. I'm glad you're here. That's why sometimes people need me as an excuse to talk about money for the first time. But, like, do you see the alarm on my face?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think is going through my head right now?

[Michelle]

Why would you trust her with that?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, why would you trust her? Why would you co sign alone? And it's not just about you, Michelle. I'm not saying that you are untrustworthy. I am saying I wouldn't co sign almost anybody's loan. And if I did, I'll be putting them through the most. I'd be like, read my book and I would quiz them of every freaking sub chapter. Explain this to me. What about this? What happens if this happens? I would make them work. So to me, this speaks to a complete lack of relationship about money between the two of you. A lack of transparency and honesty. The fact that he did not know that you had even 20k of debt, much less 10 times that. And Michelle, your inability to handle money. You took a loan to consolidate money and ended up in a worse place. Have you ever taken money from him?

[Michelle]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

What happened?

[Michelle]

When I wasn't working? He had money saved up in his safe. And since I really wasn't working because I was studying, I would like, take. And then I would say I was going to replace. And like, before he noticed, I would replace it. And then it just never happened. And then one day he went to go grab something from it, and I didn't even know how to tell him what happened, Matt.

[Matt]

It was just missing. And I was just really disappointed.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you say anything?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What what was the conversation?

[Michelle]

I mean, honestly, there wasn't conversation. It was actually silence. But it was honestly, like, I still live with that guilt so bad because I literally. He's never judged me about it. He's never, like, made me feel less of a person for even doing that. And I went and I, like, betrayed him.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does this sound like a healthy relationship with money to the two of you?

[Matt]

They hurt, and I just lost trust.

[Ramit Sethi]

You tell her that?

[Matt]

I don't think so.

[Ramit Sethi]

You want to tell her right now?

[Matt]

Lost. I lost my trust with you, and it hurt.

[Michelle]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Matt]

It was. It was going to be her ring.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's what I was going to pay.

[Matt]

For her ring with. She's always asking, you know, about a ring, and that's the reason why she hasn't gotten it yet.

[Michelle]

As I took the funds that he had for it, I get really scared that he's gonna question if he sees a future with me and even my ability to be like a parent because of that dumb stuff I've done.

[Ramit Sethi]

I feel like right now we're opening up, kind of lifting the lid on something, and it feels treacherous. It feels dangerous. Does he want to stay with me? Does he think I'm going to be a bad parent? I'm going to guess that you have lifted the lid up, and this is so scary. You've just covered it right back up and pushed it away in the past.

[Financial Expert]

This goes so much deeper than spending money on doordash pancakes. Michelle feels guilty about taking money from Matt's safe, as she should. We're talking about $5,000, which is a big deal. And now she's scared that he's not going to stick around to build a future together. But he hasn't expressed wanting to leave. If anything, he hasn't reacted angrily enough for what I would have expected. Can you imagine what this conversation would be like if the genders were reversed and a boyfriend stole from his girlfriend's safe? I see gender dynamics here. I see personal psychology. I see a common dynamic where someone continues to blame themselves. But after a while, you start to say, okay, now what? You can blame yourself. But it's almost starting to seem like a defense mechanism. And the question is, what are you going to do about it? I want to explore Michelle's childhood so I can understand what sorts of money situations were modeled to her when she was growing up. We'll dig into that after this break. And real quick, if you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we drop a new One make sure you hit that subscribe button. It really helps my team and me grow.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Expert]

I got this DM from someone.

[Ramit Sethi]

They were like, I saw you coming.

[Financial Expert]

Out of my building. I just wanted to say hi. I was like, I don't need my skin worn like a raincoat, okay? But the worst part is that was just an Instagram dm. Imagine if you went on Google, you searched for your name and city, guess what you find. You'll notice your address is out there, your phone number, even your family member's personal information is out there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not okay.

[Financial Expert]

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[Ramit Sethi]

You ever felt good about money?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you didn't feel bad about money, what would you feel?

[Michelle]

I have no idea.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's pretty common. People who have felt bad about money for so long, it's like having leg pain times a thousand. You get used to it. You forget what it was like to not have that. And then if I ask you what would it feel like to not have that, people go, I don't know. It's been with me forever.

[Michelle]

I'm definitely irresponsible with it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Michelle]

I definitely, I was, I wasn't taught anything with it. Like it was a control thing growing up. So I always said I'm not going to be controlled by money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who controlled it?

[Michelle]

My dad. He was like the sole provider. He worked long hours, maybe like 16, 17 a day, Monday through Friday, barely got to sleep. And my mom was a stay at home mom to take care of me and my sister. And he was the one that was like in control of like everything pretty much.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you say control, give me a specific example where he exerted control using money.

[Michelle]

If he would say something mean to us or something or like get out of line, he would like buy us something or give us money. That's kind of like how it started also with my mom. My mom for a while was in credit card debt and I know my dad lost his lid when he saw Macy's bill and then he paid it off for her, but it was kind of like, it's kind of like my mom always had to go to him for money. And I didn't like that because I felt like it took her independence away.

[Ramit Sethi]

Because she had to ask for money. She was in a less powerful position or subservient. Like, please give me money.

[Michelle]

Yeah, yeah. Or even sometimes he would just blatantly be like, oh, well, I'm the one that pays bills. I'm the one that has money. As I got older and I started like, you know, talking back, that's what I remember the conversations would be.

[Ramit Sethi]

So he would say, don't talk back to me. I'm the one who provides for this family.

[Michelle]

Yeah, like, or don't say that you're gonna need my money. Wow. Or it's like, oh, it's always my money. Or you're brokey. Like you're brokey.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like what did you feel when you heard your dad saying these things?

[Michelle]

I felt like it was disgusting. I feel like he just thought that like, because he came from another country, he had to work from such A young age, and he had to kind of like, he's done very well for himself for being born in another country and not really knowing the language and coming up, like, he's done, you know, his American dream. But then because of that, I feel like we'll never do good enough. He's just like, you guys will never understand. You guys are spoiled.

[Matt]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think it's true. You will never understand. I will never understand what it's like for my parents to have been born in India and come here.

[Michelle]

Yeah, right.

[Ramit Sethi]

That doesn't necessarily make me spoiled.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What did your mom say as these conversations were happening between you and your dad?

[Michelle]

Oh, she'd stay quiet.

[Ramit Sethi]

How come?

[Michelle]

I'm assuming she felt maybe that way about herself too, so she just would try to avoid it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you ever talk to your mom about money as a kid or as a teenager?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Never?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

How come?

[Michelle]

Because it was my dad more that had it. So I would just go to my dad, let's say, for a field trip and stuff like that. Like, my mom would just always kind of make us be the one to ask for it. Like, she would never ask for us.

[Ramit Sethi]

Looking back, do you see that as normal or abnormal?

[Michelle]

Abnormal completely.

[Ramit Sethi]

Me too. What happened as you got older when you were a teenager?

[Michelle]

My dad still was the one providing. And then when I was able to get a job at 14, I started working.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did it feel like when you started getting a paycheck?

[Michelle]

Great, because I didn't need to ask my dad for anything. In a way made it seem like I needed him less, even though I didn't, because I was still living in his house and stuff. But in a way, it's like that's how he kind of like, he would look for any other excuse in a way to kind of like poke at you. When it started changing the most was when I had to go to college and get student loans. And that's when it all, like, went bad.

[Ramit Sethi]

What happened?

[Michelle]

My dad is my co signer for my loans. I had to apply to private, like, student loans. Sallie May. And then when I was done with school, I had to start paying the student loans. And my dad was like, I don't even remember, like, signing these loans, the co signer ones.

[Ramit Sethi]

Whoa.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And so then he would go on this tangent saying, till this day, he still says that. Like, we forged his signature for it. Even though I literally remotely remember the fights we would get into because of it. Because I tell him, like, if you don't want to do it, like, I can just work. I'll just delay. He's like, delay another semester. Like, no, do whatever you got to do. And then I would try to explain to him. He wouldn't want to be involved, to be honest. He would say he was too busy with work and all that. And so then he would just be like, here, do what you got to do. And, you know, being dumb and young and not really understanding that interest increases and that I'm gonna have to pay everything back. Yeah, I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much did you graduate with?

[Financial Expert]

In debt overall?

[Michelle]

Yeah, like, 250,000.

[Financial Expert]

This is so horrible. I cannot imagine growing up with a dad who talked to me like that, who talked to my mom like that. And then who lied about co signing alone.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes.

[Financial Expert]

Michelle has responsibility here. She also signed for that loan. Now, I'm not a therapist, so I don't feel comfortable characterizing how her father spoke to her. But let's just say my personal view is I am extremely pissed at him. If you grew up under that kind of household, can you imagine how you would react? I don't think most of us can. So Michelle graduated with $250,000 in loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's keep going. Looking back on the financial relationship you had with your dad regarding the co signing of the loans, what words come to mind for you? The first words that you feel it's.

[Michelle]

Really messed up that he actually, like, feels that I would have the ability to go, or honestly just, like, the morals to even go and, like, forge that, knowing that every time we got into a fight, I would go ask him, what should I do about the semester? I would try to see. He would say, no. It'd be a huge thing. Do whatever you want. Like, I'm going to need you. Because my mom doesn't have any credit, so they're not going to give it to her. And it was just, like, always a headache.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do you think he said that it was forged. I mean, obviously that's not true. Why do you think he's saying?

[Michelle]

Because I think he feels stupid that he didn't take the time to be involved. And also his anger and his stress took the best of him. My dad is pretty good financially. Like, he's very, like, strategic with his money. He takes, you know, he works hard for it. He. But I think he feels probably dumb that he let kind of me jump into that.

[Ramit Sethi]

So he feels dumb, you think? He feels angry, maybe ashamed, maybe overwhelmed that this happened and he didn't realize the implications. And so his Conclusion is to do what?

[Michelle]

Blame it on me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Blame it on you?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

In other words, not take responsibility, not create a plan. Just. I need this bad feeling to go away.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Do you see any links between the way that your dad handles money and the way that you handle money?

[Matt]

Today she avoids her problems with money and he avoids talking about his problems with money.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you say, Michelle?

[Michelle]

Yeah, he never spoke to us about money, problems with money or anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you talk to Matt about money?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's one. How do you think your dad feels about knowing that he co signed a loan and now his daughter graduated with quarter million dollars in debt? How does he feel?

[Michelle]

Guilt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Guilt? You ever feel guilty about money?

[Michelle]

All the time.

[Ramit Sethi]

2. What else? Does he make a plan? Is he methodical about what to do? Does he do his research and then come to you and say, I think we should do this? What do you think?

[Michelle]

No. Never.

[Ramit Sethi]

Never made a plan. Okay.

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

You ever make a plan with your finances? I'm going to do this. I'm going to pay off debt. I'm going to know the month and year.

[Michelle]

I do it all the time. I try my best, but I never execute it because then it becomes overwhelming when I start seeing the numbers so big. To be honest.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm going to count that as three. Because writing a plan in a journal or kind of ruminating on it, that can feel like executing a plan. But it gets you 98% of the way there. But that last 2% is fundamentally the only thing that matters.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So 1, 2, 3 links between your dad and you. What do you think about that?

[Michelle]

It sucks because that's like what keeps us from having a relationship now. All we do is fight about like, like my student loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any of this. Surprise you met.

[Matt]

I've heard stories over these seven years, so. Not really because she always comes to me crying or kind of expressing what happened.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, it's a tough. It's a really tough situation, you know, with your dad, who's supposed to love you in so many ways and co signing the check and then turning around and saying you forged it.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean, obviously that's not true, but beyond that, for a dad to say that about his daughter, there's something fundamentally wrong.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

We all agree.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Michelle]

I feel like overall I haven't been able to like grow. I haven't been able to do anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

With your finances, with your relationship with your family.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

With what else?

[Michelle]

My relationship with Matt even.

[Financial Expert]

Obviously this goes a lot deeper than I can tackle myself as a kid. She saw her dad being cruel and controlling with money. She saw her mom secretly racking up debt on her Macy's card and then her dad and the student loans, as if taking out a quarter of a million dollar loan was not bad enough, which again, she needs to take some responsibility for. Then her dad accuses her of forging his signature on the loans. Knowing all this, it's no surprise that Michelle is unable to be open with Matt about her finances. Money to her is inextricably clouded with negativity and he hasn't been pushing her to have conversations because he knows all about this family history and he doesn't want to upset her. So he's walking on eggshells. I think it is critical that they put everything on the table and start to actually get real about what their expectations are. We're going to open up their conscious spending plan right after this.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cassandra decided to surprise me with a date night. We went to Central park and there was a skating rink there. I said, cool. I haven't skated in many, many years, since I was a kid. Get the skates, put them on. I was skating back to my locker to put my shoes on. I fall down. I thought, no big deal, I fell down. Four people come over, look over me like this, are you okay? I guess it was more of a serious fall than I realized. Especially when you weigh 75 pounds more than you used to weigh as a kid. Turns out that that date night ended up in me fracturing my wrist. Got to tell you, it's not the coolest thing in the world to tell your friends, hey, I fractured my wrist. Why? Because I was roller skating in Central Park. If you have people who depend on you, you need to make sure they're protected in case something happens to you. That's what term life insurance is for. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done right here, right now. You could be covered right from your couch in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your spending needs like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. It's all online and all on your schedule, so apply when it's convenient for you. There's absolutely no risk and there's a 30 day money back guarantee. You can cancel at any time. They have over 19005 star reviews on Trustpilot with a rating of excellent. Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just [e-mail] Ramit that's meetfabric.com Ramit M E E T fabric.com Ramit Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions.

[Financial Expert]

Now back to the conversation.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think we need to look at the numbers. So the two of you put together a csp. Did you do it together?

[Michelle]

No. Virtually.

[Ramit Sethi]

What was that like?

[Michelle]

He didn't really say much about the obvious big bet number.

[Matt]

I didn't see it before she submitted it. I saw it the day after.

[Michelle]

I didn't finish it until, like, the night of. And then that's when I told him that I finished it. And if he want. If he needed. Like. Is there anything you want to talk about?

[Ramit Sethi]

Interesting question. Is there anything you want to talk about? What do you think you were getting at by asking that?

[Michelle]

Do you want to ask me about, like, the debt? I just told him about the amount that I spent on Uber Eats, which was disgusting.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. So that was the number you focused on, the UberEats number.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then you said, do you want to ask me anything else?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what did he say?

[Michelle]

I think he said no.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did you both view this CSP assignment?

[Michelle]

He said it was easy.

[Matt]

I thought it was. Yeah. Pretty simple to fill out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right. So you viewed it as filling out numbers on a spreadsheet. Yeah. Okay. And how did you view it, Michelle?

[Michelle]

Really hard. Typical. Embarrassing. Overwhelming.

[Ramit Sethi]

Quite typical of the way both of you treat money. Right.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

For you, it's easy system. It's numbers. I have them ready to go black and white. Done for you. Full of shame.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Guilt.

[Michelle]

Especially when I saw that, like, the debt was both of ours. And then I felt guilt that I was like, here I am putting all this debt on you.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. But neither of you really talked about it. The point of the CSP is not to get your numbers precise down to the third decimal place. That's irrelevant. What is it designed to do? Get you to talk about it. And, in fact, notice some of the machinations behind the scenes. Waiting until the last second to finish it, then saying, is there anything you want to ask me? It's not really how you start a substantive conversation. Right. It's almost like I'm going to try to skirt past this as quickly and quietly as possible. Is there anything you want to ask me?

[Financial Expert]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Good.

[Matt]

Submit.

[Ramit Sethi]

So here we are. And the two of you haven't talked about money. Even still. Yeah. Should we talk about it now?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's look. So, assets are zero. Investments $47,000. Whose investments?

[Matt]

I put my 401k there, and then I think I may have also put what I have in a trading account.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Savings 0 and debt, $263,000 for a total net worth of negative $215,000. All right, what do you all think about that?

[Matt]

It's insane.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you know that, Matt?

[Matt]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did you think it was?

[Matt]

20,000 credit card debt and maybe like 100,000 student loans for her.

[Ramit Sethi]

So almost double what you thought. Yeah. And seeing it, what do you feel?

[Matt]

Just really confused on how we're going to get out of this. Because, I mean, I don't have debt like that, so I never had a plan for myself to get out of if I was to get into debt like that. So seeing that now, it's just like, what do I do here? Kind of thing.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you do here? Yeah. Is it you?

[Matt]

It should be us, but what do we do here?

[Ramit Sethi]

What if it's her? Any of this debt yours?

[Matt]

A little bit. I mean, I have like maybe 20,000 student loans and then 16,000 in a car debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, okay. All right. So like 230 of it is yours. Ballpark. So what? The way I would look at it, even if I'm in a relationship where we are not married, I would say, how is she going to handle this debt? Yeah, it's a different philosophy, right?

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you ever said that to her?

[Matt]

Well, I didn't know because we were not married. I never pictured our finances together like that yet. But since we had to do the csp, now it's together and just kind of changes the way I'm seeing it and thinking about it. If we get married, do I inherit this? Also, if something were to happen to her, how will this get paid off? God forbid, Just basically like, how can we afford anything with that number?

[Ramit Sethi]

Michelle, what do you think?

[Michelle]

Hearing that, I never felt like it would be our debt to take care of. I always felt like it would be mine regardless of, like, getting married and stuff. Like, it's still my debt. So I never thought I would expect him to be taking care of any of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

So. Okay, but what about the substance of his comment, which is how are we going to get married if she has that much debt?

[Michelle]

That's what I felt that he's thought this whole time.

[Ramit Sethi]

Instead of fearing what he might think, he thinks it, he just said it. So let's take that fear away. Now let's go into the substance of his question, which is a super valid question. How are we going to get married and be in a relationship. If she's bringing $230,000 of debt, what's your take? There's nobody else coming to save you here. I think that's part of my goal with our conversation, is for you to recognize the reality of the situation here. Let's continue on. Income, 15,825amonth. Now, this is interesting. $9,300. Is partner one, is that you, Michelle? Okay, great. And partner two is 6,400amonth. That's you, Matt. Okay, so quite interesting, right? Michelle's making more by roughly 50% or so than math. And yet the numbers are profoundly different when we look at fixed costs. Michelle, you're paying 99% of fixed costs from your salary. I mean, right there, that's unsustainable. Right? You are broke. You're losing money every single month. Meanwhile, Matt, you're at 53%, which is a very healthy number. I assume part of this is because you're not paying rent.

[Matt]

Paying rent, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Interestingly, by the way, Matt's not paying rent. Michelle's paying $360 in rent. 360 is also a great deal, don't get me wrong. But at 99%, it's difficult to live. And if we look at why, we see a few things here. What do you notice about your numbers in the fixed costs? What stands out to you immediately?

[Michelle]

My debt payments.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your Debt payment is $2,542 a month.

[Matt]

That was the most shocking part. That was. That was the number that was left off when I was doing the csp, when I said I was done, you know, I logged off and let her submit it. And then that's, I guess, the final number she has to input. And then she submitted it.

[Ramit Sethi]

So when you looked at it, you were like, oh, this looks fine. Like, it's fine. Like, look at this. If I zero out all the debt. Oh, 58%. You were like, solid, we're good to go. Easy, right? But it's not. It's 99%. What else do you notice, Michelle, about your fixed costs?

[Michelle]

That my shop a lot.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Why? We determined it already. Right? What is it?

[Michelle]

Because I like. It's soothing.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Like filling avoidant.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, exactly. Gives you a sense of control. A temporary sense of control. But now let's look at the effects of that. So the effects are that this number here, Clothes, Target, Amazon Miscellaneous, is $748 a month. Your debt goes up and up and up. Right. And your debt is at, like, $230,000. And then how does that affect your relationship now that the two of you know about these numbers?

[Matt]

Just pretty confused. I just don't know how all that adds up.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you confused or are you angry?

[Matt]

No, I'm not angry.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh. Can I tell you my reaction? I would be angry at my partner, who we live together, who I asked repeatedly. Let me look at what you're writing. And you said no. And now we have. You have this much in debt, and how are we ever going to come together and get married? And what's worse isn't even the number. What's worse is that I don't have a plan. I would be angry because this is not just her debt. It's the future for the two of you. I'd love to hear you talk about money now that you have seen these numbers.

[Matt]

I don't even know how to start. Like, how. What would you even do? How would you get out of it? What's the plan?

[Michelle]

Get another job.

[Ramit Sethi]

How does this conversation feel? Already uncomfortable? It feels horrible to me. I'm not even in it. You've never really talked about money. I hear that. But the first conversation that you're having is getting really negative really fast. Can we change the dynamic of that?

[Financial Expert]

I'm about to walk them through the steps of your first positive money conversation, which is an exercise that I outlined early in my new book, Money for Couples. You can preorder money for [e-mail] moneyforcouples and you could get the exact words to use to have better conversations about money in your relationship. Iwt.com moneyforcouples what would you want to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Feel in your first money conversation?

[Michelle]

I'd want to feel like there's hope, like there's a chance that there is a way out of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's start by each of you sharing one way that this conversation about money is going to be positive.

[Michelle]

I would start it by saying that I'm sorry for the past and that I want to maybe set out like a payment plan or for the money I owe him first off, because I feel like that one is, like, a huge factor on me too.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is this conversation going to be good?

[Michelle]

Because I'm being honest about my numbers.

[Matt]

This conversation is going to be good because we're finally communicating about our debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, next. How do you each feel about money today?

[Michelle]

I feel really bad about money. Today.

[Matt]

I feel bad. Pretty confident about money, just in a sense of how to manage it. And, you know, make sure you pay your bills first and then Whatever's left over. Be safe.

[Ramit Sethi]

How about the two of you? You feel. You feel bad, you feel good? Any connection about how you feel about potentially your money?

[Michelle]

Together we can come up with a plan for me to be able to get out of this so you're more comfortable and I'm more comfortable and we can save for our future.

[Matt]

I feel that it's definitely scary to see that number, but like you said, we can create a plan and just be really disciplined with what we're spending on. Not saying we can't have fun, but really just be mindful of going to Target or needing something from Amazon, things like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you want to feel about money?

[Michelle]

I want to feel confident. Not like I'm in jail all the time. I want to feel free.

[Matt]

I would agree with that. I'd want to feel like it's not holding us back from anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

I have to admit, I'm surprised by that last one because right now, Michelle, you seem pretty free to me. Spend on the things you want. Where's the jail?

[Michelle]

The one I guess I put myself in?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. So isn't that the worst of all worlds? You feel constrained. You're actually just spending more than you make. You just feel bad in a way. It seems like you almost thrive on feeling bad. You use the word dwell earlier. You know, it's caused me to dwell. But I think with your money, you dwell on it so much, it is not healthy to ruminate obsessively and to dwell on it for years. So when I hear, you know, you've made mistakes in your past. Okay, fine. Everybody's made a mistake. I've made mistakes, fine. Matt says, like, just make a plan, pay off your debt. She just needs to get better with money. But it's not just that simple, right? I think step one is not dwelling on what's happened in the past, but rather looking to the future. And what about the consequences? Matt, have you ever asked her directly and said we need to have a candid conversation about money?

[Matt]

I don't think so. I just, you know, like I said, I'll go over, take a look at the planner. She'll tell me, don't look or stop. And I just back off.

[Ramit Sethi]

It feels very childlike, the whole dynamic of, like, let me peek. It's like two kids in junior high looking at each other and like, no, don't look. You're in your 30s. You're talking about potentially marriage and kids. That just doesn't make sense to me as an adult. What do you think, Matt?

[Matt]

She just didn't want to tell me. And I never went through with asking more questions to avoid arguments.

[Ramit Sethi]

Because if you argue, it means what?

[Matt]

Just more fighting?

[Michelle]

But we can, like, be done.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, maybe. It means you're a mean person and you. You get enough fights from your family. So when you come to Matt's, you're in a safe space, but your identity is. Now I'm the one who doesn't fight with her. What else is Matt's identity as it relates to you and money?

[Michelle]

The one that helps me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. He gives you money. He excuses when you make a bad mistake. He enables you.

[Financial Expert]

Based on what we heard today, you'll notice a lot of similarities in the way that Michelle behaves with money and the way her parents behaved with money. Listen, as I try to help her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Make that connection, can you think of anyone else in your life who shopped and ran up credit card debt?

[Michelle]

My mom.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any connection there?

[Michelle]

I thought of it for a little bit because I was like, why did I continue it? Because she stopped it right away.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why did she stop it?

[Michelle]

She didn't have any more funds.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And who found out about it?

[Michelle]

My dad.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what did he do?

[Michelle]

He paid it off and told her to cut it up.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. So you don't have that happening in your life, in part because you earn your own income, right?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So your mom stopped because of the consequences. What are you realizing?

[Michelle]

I don't have consequences because it's, like, my income. So I'm not feeling like I owe anyone anything. But I do owe.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. I don't. I'm not advocating for you to give up your income. And then for you, Matt, to come in and say, like, stop shopping at Macy's. That's not what I'm saying at all. I do think you're onto something by realizing you don't have any consequences. Have you ever realized that before?

[Michelle]

And for a second, I, like, touched that, and I was like, ooh, maybe that's me. And then that was. I think I ignored it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Kind of happens a lot, don't you think?

[Michelle]

Yeah, I avoid.

[Ramit Sethi]

You uncover something, it's like you lift it up and you go, oh, yeah, I don't like what's under there. I'm out of here.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's pretty interesting, right?

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any reminders from the way you grew up? Somebody who uncovers something they don't like. And then my dad. Your dad does it. Does it a lot, right?

[Financial Expert]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Watching you see these connections between you and your dad and your mom, I think people can internalize this. In one of two ways. One, they can become overwhelmed and feel broken and feel my future has already been written for me in my past. So what's the point? Everything I do is just because my dad said something in 1988, and now, like, I have no agency, I have no control. That's one or two people can say, oh, I never made the connection between why I behave this way and what my parents modeled. Now that I know that, what do I want to do about it? What do I want my future to be? Which one would you say that you are right now?

[Michelle]

I feel like because of all the. The names that my parents have called me, I let them take over, like, who I am. So it's like, in a way, I'm, like, living up to their names.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're never going to be good with money.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now you're not good with money. Oh, he called you a brokey. I can't believe that. I cannot. Like you said, I cannot believe any parent ever calling their child that. And you are broke.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So in a way, it, like, manifested. Yeah. And just out of curiosity, if you weren't broke, if you were good with money, if you were paying your debt off steadily, do you think they would love you more or less?

[Michelle]

I don't know if they would love me more or less, but they would feel less useful because I wouldn't need to, like, depend on them.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right. Right now you do. Right. You live in their house. You have to ask for a ride to work. You're totally dependent.

[Financial Expert]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So in a way, you have taken the ball that they tossed you and said, great, I'm going to run with this. What do you think about this, Matt? It's got to be frustrating for you, somebody who says, I have a system. My stuff runs. What's the problem? Let's just knock it out.

[Matt]

Yeah. It's just a little sad. I think she's just kind of not focusing on herself. And I don't know, she makes a lot more money than me. So I don't understand how you make all this money and it all goes to your bills.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you say that to her?

[Matt]

No, I didn't say that to her, but I don't upset her. I just try to avoid an argument. So I'm also an avoider, but in other ways.

[Financial Expert]

Finally, we are getting somewhere. They're finally talking about money. Matt is expressing his concerns, and he's also admitting that he doesn't talk about money because he's also an avoider. They both are. Although Michelle is also a Worrier challenge now will be for Michelle and Matt to adopt new money behaviors. Step one is for both of them to have a series of real conversations about money. Do they have a future together? What are their expectations? What would success look like? And this is going to be uncomfortable, but it has to be. Sometimes the only way to build a rich life is to walk straight through the fire. But only Michelle can get this under control. Matt can't do it. I can't do it. She has to do it by herself, for herself.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you trust her?

[Matt]

If, like, I had a safe. No. But, yes, I trust her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Trust her with money?

[Matt]

No, not yet.

[Ramit Sethi]

Could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?

[Matt]

I think I just need to have control of what she's doing, kind of, and I don't want that. I don't want to be kind of like micromanaging what she does because she's an adult. She should know.

[Ramit Sethi]

So could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?

[Matt]

It'd be hard, but I think I could.

[Michelle]

I kind of see it like, no, you shouldn't trust me with money. And, no, you shouldn't want to get married to someone like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

And when you say that to him, what's the intent there? Because I don't think it's for him to break up with you.

[Michelle]

No, it's not.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think it's so that he reassures you. You feel scared, you articulate those fears to him. He goes, no, it's okay. I love you. I'm not leaving. And you feel reassured for the moment. And so what happens is the two of you enter into this dynamic where you're constantly worried and ruminating over your fears, and you're reassuring. But what I haven't heard Matt, is you saying, hey, I'm actually not okay getting married to someone who's in230,000 of debt and worse, not actually making a plan to pay it off. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with building a family when we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt that's only the minimum being paid. You work in finance. You know this. I'm not okay with that. And so because you're walking on eggshells, afraid to upset Michelle, what happens? You end up stagnant. Nobody has any consequences. Michelle, have you had any consequences for Matt about finances? No. He didn't even know the numbers until today. And you didn't share them with him. So the reason I'm getting a little upset here is that I see your future that you're sleepwalking into. If both of you go, hey, fine, I'm okay with $230,000 of debt. I don't mind taking it on. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with that, but at least you two would affirmatively discuss it and say, this is our family approach. Right now, it's just like each of you, living independent lives, hoping that nothing bad happens and you can slip by the CSP and you can slip by getting married.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What kind of life is that?

[Michelle]

A lie.

[Ramit Sethi]

Michelle, you went to nursing school. Grades made you drop out, and then you fought back, went back into an accelerated program, graduated, and now you're a nurse making 120k. Right. How come you got so aggressive with that?

[Michelle]

I think I just pretty much was tired of living, like, a comfortable life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

Trying to act like I was okay with everything, even though I wasn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you okay with that right now?

[Michelle]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, well, then tell me what you want to do.

[Michelle]

I want to get ahead of debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

What would it mean to you if you could pay that off?

[Michelle]

I would feel confident in myself and value myself a lot more.

[Ramit Sethi]

Kind of like the way you got your nursing degree.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You did that. Nobody else did that. You. One of the things I love is when I meet somebody who's really accomplished in one part of life, and then their finances are a little sloppy, and they never make the connection. Oh, yeah, I go to the gym all the time. I do this, I do that. But my finances are a mess, and I. I help them make that connection between the two of them. And you can see them kind of sit up a little straighter. They realize the way that I do this is the same way. I can do that. So you would feel confident you would value yourself more. What would you do with your first rich life goal after you paid off your debt?

[Matt]

Probably get a dog.

[Michelle]

Yeah?

[Ramit Sethi]

Get what kind of dog?

[Michelle]

German shepherd.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's kind of a beautiful thing to have a dog who you would love and take care of that would constantly remind you of what you accomplished. Hard work. It wasn't easy. You did it, and you get to love this dog.

[Michelle]

I feel proud of myself.

[Ramit Sethi]

So looking at your fixed costs here and then if we just work our way down, you know, you're investing a lot, and, of course, you're spending more than you make. So let's just focus on the area that you can control. When you just painted the picture for me of feeling pride, of paying off your debt, of potentially getting a dog, tell me what you could do right here in these numbers.

[Michelle]

I could cut dining out, Uber eats.

[Ramit Sethi]

How?

[Michelle]

I could give myself a hundred dollar to be realistic.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fine, $100 per month. And what about the other times you come home from late from work and you're tired?

[Michelle]

Just come home and make something or have it pre cooked right there.

[Ramit Sethi]

That would save you hundreds. Okay. What about the Target stuff?

[Michelle]

I would also slash that to like a hundred dollars too by just buying the necessities that I need.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what else in your environment helps or hurts your chances of achieving your rich life goals?

[Michelle]

Living in my house.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Probably can't move out tomorrow.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what could you do to make it a better environment?

[Michelle]

I could. We'll set a goal of hopefully when to be able to move out because that's something to look forward to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. What else?

[Michelle]

Stay at meds. Some days.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think all those things are good. I think those are all very logistical things. I am willing to bet you have never said no to your family. How could you build those skills so that you could have a better relationship with your family?

[Michelle]

Setting boundaries.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that's a really good place to spend some money. Get a therapist to guide you through those difficult conversations.

[Michelle]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

To me, when I look at the dynamic and the thing that you've both wanted to get married but you haven't and the safe and all this stuff, to me your priorities are very clear. I see you spending a ton on eating out. I see you spending a ton on this mindless stuff at Target. I don't see you putting money to spend on yourself. I'm talking about mental health.

[Michelle]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Because to me, that's everything. If you right now, the way you talk about money, it's shame filled, it's guilt ridden. It would not change until you learn how to say no, how to set boundaries and how to get aggressive with this. I think a lot of our conversation has been you metaphorically leaning back saying like, I feel bad, I hate this. I made a lot of poor decisions. I just don't know what to do. But in order to be proud of yourself, what do you have to do? You have to go from here to here. You have to say, I'm sick of this. I'm making a plan. It might make a couple people around me uncomfortable and I'm still going to do it. And Matt, what about you? What role would you say you've been playing in this relationship as it relates to money?

[Matt]

Not like getting angry with her and, you know, enabling her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Matt]

With the spending.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't think you have to get angry. Not with her. But I do agree. You've been enabling. What else?

[Matt]

Way better communication.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean. Yeah. Would you be willing to marry somebody who was in this much debt and had no plan for getting out of it?

[Matt]

I said it would be hard. So I guess helping her stay on track with the plan part of the.

[Ramit Sethi]

Problem is that by you being the safety net for her financially and otherwise, Michelle knows she has faced no consequences. The hardest part of this is both of you actually setting standards for yourself. And I don't know about you guys, but if I'm thinking about a marriage, which is the most serious bond of all, I'm setting high standards. This is what I need in a partner. This is what I expect. I'm not going to pick some esoteric thing like, I need you to do your hair this color. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about values. I expect us to have a healthy financial relationship. I expect us to be nice to each other, not to scream at each other. This is a type of love. Right. It's loving yourself and raising the expectations for your partner, and then they meet it or they don't.

[Michelle]

I don't doubt my love for Matt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

But I doubt my love for myself.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Michelle]

He won't even say, like, I don't see myself marrying her.

[Ramit Sethi]

I know he won't say it right now. And I'm not trying to get you to say that.

[Michelle]

Yeah. And I'm, like, answering that for him. So it's like, in a way, like, it's like, self sabotaging.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, it is. Yes. For me, in a relationship, if I were there with somebody who had a bunch of debt, we would be talking about it. They would be bringing it up to me. I would not be chasing them. Even though a person in debt tends to avoid it, there's a lot of shame. I get that. I would have created a culture where they felt safe enough to talk about it, and it was expected. Like, if you have some major health issue, it's expected. You talk about it in this relationship. We're in an intimate relationship. I need to know if you have a financial problem, a family problem. I expect you to talk about it just as you could expect that for me. Okay. Then it would be, Tell me about your plan. How are you going to deal with this? If there's something that is. You don't understand, let's talk about it. But you're an adult. I trust you to handle this because this is just one of a Million things that a married couple would encounter right now. You can't retire. You can't buy a house. You can't do any of that. What about your kids, Matt? You want to have kids who are going to learn that dad is giving money to mom, mom is hiding it and shopping. Does that sound like.

[Matt]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any couple you know?

[Michelle]

Well, my parents.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. It's just passed down. No, you elevate the conversation to a plan because this plan is the foundation for your relationship. Without it, you'll be in half a million dollars of debt in a few years, and there's no escaping that. What do you guys hear as I say? That?

[Michelle]

He needs to implement consequences.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are those consequences?

[Matt]

That I won't marry her.

[Ramit Sethi]

I would not break off a relationship with someone just because they had debt. But if they did not show that they took it seriously, I would tell them point blank, this is what I expect in a partner. This is the easiest thing we're going to do together when we're married. We're going to have a lot more challenges. So I need to know that I can trust you as a partner.

[Matt]

That's my fault. I never expressed that I wouldn't marry her. So I never kind of laid down the law.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's not laying down the law. It's you respecting yourself enough to know this is what you need in your life. You're an accomplished guy. You talked about the gym. Your numbers look solid. Everything's within the parameters. Like, it's. It's very. It's like a machine. Right? You ever describe yourself as a machine before?

[Matt]

Only when I'm working.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. That's a yes.

[Michelle]

He is, though.

[Ramit Sethi]

But that's one of the reasons that the two of you haven't actually been communicating is, Michelle, you're operating on feelings about the past. Feelings may feel real to you, and sometimes they are valid in with reality, sometimes not. Meanwhile, Matt lives in the plan. He has his csp, has his numbers. It's so easy for him. But what the thing you both have in common is you have a relationship you both want. It's just that no one's actually taking the first step to say, here's what I need in a relationship. So what do you guys want to do from here?

[Michelle]

I need to have my goals.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Do you know what they are?

[Michelle]

To have a dog with Matt. To get married, to have a family, and to just like, be happy and debt free.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. Those are big goals. How do you get there?

[Michelle]

By paying off my debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Make a plan to pay off your debt. You can't pay off your debt tomorrow. It's going to take years. You know that. It's fine. You have to make a plan. So you're going to make that plan, or are you going to wait for Matt to make it?

[Michelle]

No, I'm going to make the plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, it's your plan. It's her money. She owns it. You can collaborate, you can answer questions if she has them, but you can't take the lead. That means this whole dynamic of hiding what you're writing in the journal, it's got to change. So you make a plan. And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan I've come up with. This is how long it's going to take me. Here's what I'm going to do in order to make it happen. What do you think? Because while it is not his money, you two are in a relationship together. And then, Matt, you got to be honest. If it says it's going to take 17 years to pay off, you might say, look, that's too long. Can you find a way to pay it off faster than that? This is going to be hard for you because you want to solve problems for her. It's not your job. So then you're going to start with the plan, cutting back on this, et cetera. And what's Matt going to see from that?

[Michelle]

Results by not needing to ask him for money and also by paying him back.

[Ramit Sethi]

Amazing. I actually find that very inspirational. I've known a lot of people who were in relationships where one person had debt, felt very ashamed, but what an attractive moment if that person takes responsibility and says, you know what? I made some mistakes, but I'm not going to dwell on that. Here's my plan. Watch me. Every month. Boom. Paid off 1%. Boom. Increase that number. Boom. Got a raise. Look at that smile on Matt's face. He's like that. Compounding. What are you talking about? It's really impressive. This number is big, and it's only getting bigger. Part of what change looks like is making rapid changes, going from leaning back to leaning way forward and getting aggressive. Trust me, you feel so good when you start getting that momentum and then a month from now should see some big changes. You'll be amazed how fast this can change. But remember, this comes from both of you. Not one, both.

[Matt]

I think I may take her to a jewelry store so she can get motivated.

[Financial Expert]

A big thank you to Michelle and Matt for sharing their story with us. I am rooting for Michelle to get aggressive with her plan so she and Matt can start to build their rich life together. And now let's listen to their follow up videos. Up first, Michelle.

[Michelle]

My biggest takeaway was that I realized how many financial decisions and choices I have to make. I have to really just buckle down and get started on a plan and just how much it's actually hurting my future with Matt. Changes I've started are I deleted all the Uber eats apps, just been a couple days. I have not ordered any food or anything called my loan with Matt and all those companies and I put them on an auto pay to make sure that they're always paid. I also decided to give 5% of my paycheck to a fund for me and Matt that he is in charge of for now, for our future. I hope it helps him see too that it's because I'm planning a future with for us. And also it helps me see that at least I have something to look forward to. I never really thought of like what my long term priorities were because of how much I felt that I was like drowning and all of that. And I really thank you for kind of opening my eyes to it. Once you see it's so hard you can't even not look at it and have to tackle it and do something about it.

[Financial Expert]

And now let's hear from Matt.

[Matt]

One of my biggest takeaways from the meeting was learning about how her relationship with money has a lot of commonalities with her parents.

[Ramit Sethi]

Relationship with money.

[Matt]

Something that I'm trying to change and is definitely be more community educative about our finances together. And then also something we haven't done is gone to a therapist together. She goes to therapy but I don't. And so that's something I'd like to start and I think it would really help us.

[Ramit Sethi]

They called it the happiest place on the high desert.

[Michelle]

Home to a tight knit group of.

[Ramit Sethi]

30 somethings who like to party. It starts as a Playboy channel fantasy, but this is real life where passion leads to murder and a killer seeks God's help with the COVID up. I'm Josh Mankiewicz and this is Deadly Mirage, an all new podcast from Dateline. Listen to new episodes for free each week. Wherever you get your podcasts.