188. “She makes 2x but wants me to treat her” Nate and Serena return

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 188 - “She Makes 2x but Wants Me to Treat Her” Nate and Serena Return

Introduction In episode 188 of Money for Couples with Ramit Sethi, host Ramit Sethi revisits a heartfelt and transformative conversation with Nate and Serena, a young engaged couple navigating the complexities of money management within their relationship. This episode delves deep into the emotional and psychological dynamics of discussing finances, offering listeners invaluable insights into building a harmonious financial partnership.

Background of Nate and Serena Nate and Serena are both in their late 20s and engaged to be married. Serena, raised as the daughter of immigrants, spent much of her 20s feeling financially constrained while living in New York City. Recently securing a higher-paying job, her income has surged to approximately $80,000 annually. Nate, currently a resident and earning around $45,000, is on the cusp of completing his medical training, after which his salary is expected to rise significantly.

The Initial Problem The crux of their financial discord revolves around differing expectations and communication styles regarding money. Serena, now earning more, desires Nate to contribute more generously to shared expenses, such as dining out and travel. Conversely, Nate, entrenched in the demanding residency program, struggles to adjust his spending habits despite his future earning potential.

Exploring the Money Discussions Ramit initiates a candid dialogue, prompting Serena and Nate to explore their financial interactions. Serena expresses frustration over Nate’s inability to consistently treat her despite her higher income:

Serena ([00:38] - 00:41): "Italy and India and on and on."

She highlights how financial stress mirrors the strained relationship over money she witnessed in her immigrant parents' marriage.

Nate counters with concerns about his financial limitations, especially given his substantial student debt and the unpredictability of his current income:

Nate ([02:43] - 02:49): "Even now it sort of overwhelms me to be able to be in a place to afford nice things for myself."

This sets the stage for a deeper exploration of their financial and emotional disconnect.

Role Plays and Breakthroughs In a pivotal moment, Serena and Nate engage in a role-play facilitated by Ramit, aiming to shift their communication from transactional to emotional. They attempt to invert their standard conversations about sharing expenses:

Serena ([21:13] – 21:25): "You're invited to... Welcome to..."

Nate ([21:17] – 21:16): "Sorry, go ahead. No..."

Through guided exercises, they uncover latent emotions and subconscious expectations influencing their financial interactions. This breakthrough allows them to recognize the underlying need for emotional connection tied to money discussions.

Analysis of Financial Situations Ramit and Serena meticulously analyze Nate and Serena's financial numbers, revealing a concerning disparity:

• Serena: $80,000 income, $20,000 invested, $10,000 saved, $81,000 in student loans.
• Nate: $45,000 income, minimal investments, and a staggering $450,000 in medical debt.

The breakdown uncovers that Nate's high debt burden severely restricts his ability to contribute financially, leading to recurring tensions over daily expenses.

Serena ([55:01] – 55:11): "I have extra cash at the end of the day and we'll go into that later. But I guess that was a long winded way of saying I don't think our situation is great."

Ramit’s Insights and Advice Ramit emphasizes the importance of language in financial discussions, noting how negative descriptors like "terrible" can perpetuate financial stress:

Ramit ([81:38] – 81:39): "And that part is often neglected. Let me just tell you what I would do if it were me..."

He advocates for a positive reframing of their financial situation, encouraging proactive debt payoff strategies and aggressive investing once Nate's income increases.

Serena ([82:26] – 82:36): "The hedonic treadmill is real and we should accept it. If you're making $380,000, you're still living the same way you lived when you were making 45,000."

Ramit advises couples to align their financial goals with their emotional needs, emphasizing that money conversations are as much about values and trust as they are about numbers.

Conclusions and Next Steps By the episode's end, Nate and Serena transition from conflict to cooperation, agreeing to adjust their financial contributions proportionally based on their incomes. This alignment not only alleviates immediate financial strain but also fosters a stronger emotional bond.

Serena ([85:05] – 85:07): "You said 6535 income split. I guess closer to 60. 40 now. Sounds perfect."

Nate acknowledges the necessity of this change, recognizing it as a step towards financial harmony and mutual support.

Nate ([86:00] – 86:15): "It's going to take some time to set in. It's been contending with this a little while. Long while."

Serena consolidates the discussion by highlighting the importance of emotional transparency and proactive planning, setting the stage for continued growth and collaboration in their financial journey.

Serena ([87:56] – 88:40): "You're in such a beautiful position to be able to get your process right, and then when the money comes in and it will come in, to be able to have all the money flow through this beautiful process and beautiful way of communicating together."

Key Takeaways

• Proportional Financial Contributions: Adjusting shared expenses based on each partner’s income can alleviate financial stress and foster fairness.
• Emotional Transparency: Openly discussing the emotional aspects of money can bridge communication gaps and strengthen relationships.
• Positive Reframing: Changing the language around financial situations can transform stress into proactive planning and optimism.
• Future Planning: Anticipating income changes and adjusting financial strategies accordingly ensures long-term harmony and financial stability.

Notable Quotes

• Serena: "I want someone to feel taken care of." ([20:14])
• Nate: "I have to grovel to my significant other first." ([44:23])
• Serena: "Money communicates more than just numbers." ([75:51])
• Ramit: "It's about values, trust, and working together toward a shared vision for a Rich Life." ([03:17])

Conclusion Episode 188 offers a poignant exploration of how money psychology intricately weaves into the fabric of relationships. Through Nate and Serena's candid discussions and guided role-plays, listeners gain deeper insights into navigating financial challenges with empathy, transparency, and strategic planning. Ramit Sethi masterfully underscores the essence of aligning financial practices with emotional well-being, providing a blueprint for couples striving to cultivate a shared vision of their Rich Life.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

Last December, Cas and I sat down and we did our regular annual Rich Life review. We started off by saying what went well over the course of the year. What would we change? Where would we spend more?

[Nate]

Where would we spend less?

[Ramit Sethi]

Then, of course, we looked at our numbers, we went into all the details, and over the course of several days, we talked about what we wanted to do this coming year. Well, that is the opportunity for us to really dream about things like travel, about things like do we want to eat different stuff? Do we want to try a certain restaurant? Do we want to travel with friends? And that brought us to have these amazing experiences over the course of this year where we traveled to places like.

[Serena]

Italy and India and on and on.

[Ramit Sethi]

That all came from a decision that Cas and I made last year, sitting down and talking about what we wanted our next 12 months to look like. Now I want the same for you. I want to help you plan the perfect 2025. Whether it's a beautiful trip you want to take, whether you want to start taking certain adventures. Maybe you want to have somebody do your laundry, or you want to figure.

[Serena]

Out a way that you and your.

[Ramit Sethi]

Kids can go to brunch every Sunday. Whatever the case, on January 7th I am hosting a free live online event. It's called plan your perfect 2025 and I'm going to show you how to plan the perfect year for you and your partner. The call details are only available to those who pre order my new book Money for couples. Go to iwt.com pre order to order your copy and then fill out the receipt info on that page and get details for this special online event. It's called plan your perfect 2025 happening on January 7th, and I'm going to show you exactly how to have the best year of your life. That's iwt.com pre order to get your copy of Money for Couples Right now.

[Nate]

This January, I'm coming to a city near you. Tickets are now available for my Money for Couples live book tour. Now if you love the podcast and you want to connect with hundreds of other people who are trying to improve their relationship with money, I would love to see you there. Go to iwt.com booktour and use the presale code Rich Life to get your tickets. Now I can tell you nothing beats the energy of being in that room and seeing couples live on stage. I'm coming to New York, LA, Chicago, SF and more. So get your [e-mail] booktour and use the presale code Rich Life, I don't.

[Unknown]

Know is kind of not a good answer sometimes. Now when we talk about money, I feel like I'm stepping into like a landmine. I'm making more than Nate is now, but he's going to be making a lot more than me.

[Serena]

Oh, so it's a, it's a gradation.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

So what's the number where in your mind it changes? I've never even thought about that because it's not a number. It's not a number.

[Unknown]

Even now it sort of overwhelms me to be able to be in a place to afford nice things for myself. You know, I came from an immigrant background. There was never enough money. Seeing the stress that money played in my parents relationship, I feel like it was inevitable that I would run into the same thing.

[Serena]

I think that if you don't change anything, you will find yourself continuing to argue and to spin about money and it will become even more painful.

[Unknown]

I really don't like the sound of that. And it's like, I love Nate. He's my person, we're engaged, and I'm thrilled, you know. So why is it so hard for me to do this?

[Ramit Sethi]

I love hearing your feedback about the podcast and I know a lot of you have been asking about follow ups.

[Serena]

What happens to the couples that I.

[Ramit Sethi]

Spoke to months ago, even years ago? Well, over the next two episodes, we're going to dive back in with one of my favorite couples, Nate and Serena. We're going to look back on their original conversation today and then next week we will have a new follow up with their reactions of what it was like to to watch their episode. And I have to tell you one thing, this couple was amazing. They were the first brave couple to be on video. They were incredibly honest, sometimes brutally honest, and also very sweet. Let's look back at our original conversation which took place two years ago.

[Nate]

Meet Nate and Serena. They're both in their late 20s, they are engaged, and they have a fascinating perspective on money. Serena was raised the daughter of immigrants, and for most of her 20s, she felt poor living in New York City. She's only recently gotten a higher paying job. She now makes about $80,000 a year. And she has some very strong opinions on how money should be spent in their relationship. Nate makes $45,000 a year. He's a resident. But in a couple of years he's going to be a doctor. And at that point his salary will increase dramatically. Now, the crux of the conversation today happens around different expectations. Serena thinks that money should Be spent and distributed a certain way. Nate is just too busy going to work to even really want to talk about it. And now let's get to Nate and Serena.

[Unknown]

Nate and I are currently planning a trip, or we've done most of the planning, but we're going on a trip next month to see my family in Asia for the first time ever, not just since the pandemic. I've been many times, but he has not. So this is really a big deal for me. And pretty much from the beginning, Nate said, I cannot afford this trip. We're really going to have to waive a magic wand in order for this to happen. So I ended up fronting a lot of the cost. And so now I lent Nate about $3,000 in order to cover his portion, and I was happy to do it. I think I didn't anticipate the stress it would cause me to have him in debt, which I know sounds kind of weird, but I just. I'm not the kind of person that likes to have loose ends kind of just, like, unaccounted for. So I think having that sort of question mark has sort of caused me to be a little more nervous than I usually am about money. And most like, specifically, to answer your question, in the last month, I would say, like, the cadence of, like, so when are we gonna start paying this off? Is starting to sort of, I think, cause some issues.

[Serena]

Have you said that out loud, or is that just in your head?

[Unknown]

Oh, no, we've talked about it. It doesn't always go well.

[Serena]

So who brought it up?

[Unknown]

It was probably something along the lines of, I know you're stressed about money, as we usually are, and that's okay, but it would really help me to have an idea of when and how much we can start paying this back little by little.

[Serena]

Nate, what do you remember about that conversation where Serena said, hey, I know you're stressed about money. When can you start paying me back?

[Unknown]

That's pretty much how it was phrased in my recollection, which obviously is debatable on my end. When my response is, well, I don't know, because of all these financial factors, and I'm very constantly on the cusp of paying off credit cards every month and rent, and I'm not going to know until I get paid exactly how everything's going to balance out. I feel like that's sort of unacceptable as a. As a response, and it ends up sort of becoming the case that sort of needs an answer. When am I going to pay her back, and how much exactly when. Which fits with her personality as a. As someone who plans a lot, but can.

[Serena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Lead to arguments and things like that.

[Serena]

What it feel like to you when she asks you that question?

[Unknown]

Well, if it was once a month, I think it wouldn't bother me very much at all. It's far more than once a month, at least weekly, if not more.

And I feel like weekly is about right.

[Serena]

And at what time of the day would this come up? Like, are you brushing your teeth or what?

[Unknown]

Within minutes of him coming home. Yeah. I'm like, hey, how was your day? Like, nice to see you. Our dog will greet him by licking his face for, like, 30 seconds straight. Ten minutes for a long time. And then I'll just kind of bring it up, like, hi. Like, you know, there's something I kind of want to talk about, if that's okay. I know you still, like, owe me some cash for our trip, and can we talk about paying me back?

Usually I respond by saying, I need a moment. Please give me a moment. Because it takes me a long time to switch gears after I'm coming home from work, which is my own personality, and just being tired all the time. And so really after that, I sort of default again to. Because this is something that probably came up less than a week ago. I sort of default back to, well, the answer hasn't changed in the past six or seven days. I still need to sort of wait until my paycheck comes in, and I know what my credit card bill is going to be, and I'm not completely in control exactly what that credit card bill is, because I need to pay for gas and do all these things. And so there are these factors that do change from week to week, so.

Basically control of your spending. And so I think, like, for me, and for me, that is usually how it goes. And me being me, I'm sort of like, well, things haven't changed or I don't know is kind of not a good answer. And for me, the big thing for us is like, I need to have, like, a plan, like, some sort of idea. And it could be starting three months from now. I will be able to give you $100 a month. That would be fine with me. I think the issue we have now is, like, there is no plan. So I'm just sort of, like, very much in the dark about where and when I can expect to be paid back. And do I need this money right away? No, I do not. Like, I'm very fortunate to say that, you know, but I think it's Like, I don't want the. Just, like, again, like, the loose end of not knowing where.

[Serena]

Because what and what.

[Unknown]

Because it's, like, it's stressful to me, and I know it's, like, definitely more stressful for me.

[Serena]

Hold on, hold on. One step at a time. What's stressful to you?

[Unknown]

Not knowing when I'm gonna get paid back.

[Serena]

Why?

[Unknown]

Okay, maybe stressful. Is that the right word? But annoying. Why, I think, is maybe more accurate because I think it's not even. Like, what if he just doesn't. Like, we slowly forget, you know, and he never pays me back? I don't think that's gonna happen. It's just something. And Nate sort of hinted at this, but I. If there's something like a item on a list, I want to be able to cross it off. And so for me, even though it's not, like, money that I owe somebody, which if someone venmos me, they're getting their money, like, within 30 seconds, like, I'm very good about paying people back.

[Serena]

Stay with me. Why is it annoying to you?

[Unknown]

It's annoying to me because I feel like it is something where we can't move forward until we cross that item off the list.

[Serena]

I see. And moving forward would mean what?

[Unknown]

You know, I would love to get to a place where we can go out to dinner more or save up together to go on a trip where it's not like, okay, I'm gonna front this, and then we'll figure it out from there.

[Serena]

Can you go on a vacation right now if he owes you $3,000 for this trip?

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, that's what we're going to do, I think. But, yeah.

[Serena]

Could you go to dinner if he owed you a bunch of money?

[Unknown]

We do obviously go out to dinner and stuff, but is, like, sort of still in the back of my mind, you know, when, like, the check comes.

[Nate]

Or, like, this is a golden moment? I'm not sure what the real issue is yet, But I can also tell that Serena doesn't really know what the issue is either. She says we can't move ahead, but when I ask her what that actually means, she says vacations and eating out, which they're already doing. I think in my 20s, I would have heard this, and I would have started smiling, and then I would have gone in for the kill. Hey, you said you can't move forward without vacations, but you're actually already taking a vacation, so I caught you in a lie. How do you reconcile that shit? That's so illogical.

[Serena]

Well, I've evolved a little bit.

[Nate]

It may be the case that Serena is illogical with money, but aren't we all illogical when it comes to money? Also, I want to understand more about why she feels she can't move forward. That, I think, is the real issue. Why is it vacations? Is there a meaning there I don't yet understand? Or is there some context to their relationship that I don't yet get? Sometimes I think it's just asking more questions and a lot of times it's just being a little bit more empathetic. Now I will admit, deep down I still love the feeling of hearing someone say something and then watching them contradict themselves 30 seconds later. To me, it feels like finding treasure. When you were a kid, you loved finding a quarter in the gumball machines. I loved finding logical inconsistencies. That doesn't change, but the way I approach it has.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Serena]

It's quite amazing.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Serena]

Easy math.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Nate]

Let me ask Serena a little bit.

[Serena]

More Talk to me about that. So the check comes. It's the. The server puts it down in the middle of the table. What goes through your mind?

[Unknown]

Well, I know just based on where we're at, based on what we usually do, like, we usually split the check, which I'm fine with. Nate will treat me sometimes and is really generous about. Oh, let me get you a coffee. Like, do you want anything? He's great about that, and it's really sweet, especially as someone who. That is not my, like, first way to, like, show love in a relationship. But he's very generous in that sense. I guess what goes through my mind is I wish, you know, Nate could treat me, but one day we'll get to that point. But tonight might. Might not be that point, and that's okay.

But you just said that I do treat you more often than you treat me, so that's just.

I know.

Okay.

[Serena]

Do you wish he treated you every time?

[Unknown]

No, but I think, you know, when the check arrives, like, of course I want to feel taken care of.

[Serena]

So. Nate, what would you say if you were more generous when that check came?

[Unknown]

It would probably be. Do you want me to cover this? Would probably do it. The. The problem sort of being if Serene were to reply, yeah, that would be great. I can't really afford it.

[Nate]

So that's kind of a problem.

[Unknown]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Serena]

That's like someone saying to their partner, would you like to fly in that private jet? And they're like, yeah, sure. It's like, yeah, well, I can't actually afford that, so that's cool. I'm glad you want to, but we're not going, so. So how can you be generous, Nate, if you can't afford the dinner?

[Unknown]

Well, it's an excellent question, and certainly I. I can afford on very rare occasion to. To split a dinner. It's just sort of how my financial situation is currently. There's not a lot of leeway as. As I alluded to earlier, it's difficult for me to take any sort of financial hit in any direction and still.

Being solvent, then if you're like, you know, in the back of your mind, like, you know, Brick over here, like, I would say, sorry, can I swear on here.

[Serena]

You're invited to. Welcome to.

[Unknown]

Sorry, go ahead. No, but I think, like, even if you said something, you know, suppose the check comes and you say, I, you know, I know I could treat you more often, and one day I'm going to. And one day, like, I want to get to that place, and I really appreciate you. In the meantime, I think, like, the acknowledgement or appreciation of, like, splitting a check, not that, like, you need to. I don't need, like, you know, a trophy for doing that. That's, like, pretty normal. I just think, like, acknowledging it or like, saying, like, something might. Might help. Does that make sense?

Sure. Yeah.

Like, I would love to. Like, I would love. Yeah. That was not enthusiastic.

[Serena]

That was a very. That was a very terse response.

[Unknown]

I'm thinking my way around it a little bit.

[Serena]

This is a great conversation, Nate.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

What do you think Serena is really saying right now? What is she saying?

[Unknown]

I know consciously, Serena, you really do believe these things that, you know, the man doesn't always have to pay and stuff like this. But it does sound a little bit like, with you splitting the bill, like, a little bit of that should be. I can be more appreciative of you contributing financially to the meal, for sure, but sort of underneath that, it seems like there are some sort of latent notions about that sort of, you know, the man paying all the time or things like that, which are themselves problematic, but I think they are there subconsciously.

I don't mean to be wishy washy. I think it's hard. And I'll be the first person to say that. I'm sort of, I think, trying to have my cake and eat it, too.

[Serena]

I mean, why don't we just invert the whole thing and see what happens? Um, Nate says to Serena, you know, Serena, it would be really nice if you would offer to pick up the check, like, a lot more of the time, because actually, I can't recall you ever offering. And by the way, you make a lot more money than I do, so don't you think it would be fair. Look at that big smile on Nate's face right now. Nate's got the biggest smile I've seen in the entire. Well, let's have the conversation right now. Let's just flip the whole thing and see what happens, because we can't be wishy washy about these really important things which are causing conflict once a week minimum. Okay? So, Nate, go ahead. Take it and run. Have the conversation.

[Unknown]

So, Serena, it'd be nice if you paid the check sometimes, especially because you earn a lot more than I do.

I totally understand that. If I'm going to be covering us, I would just like to know beforehand. But keep in mind, like, just because I make more money doesn't mean I don't have my own student loans and bills and stuff that I pay for. So I can treat you, but I Can't treat you all the time.

[Serena]

Right.

[Unknown]

Which isn't really what the question is. You know, nobody's asking each other to be treated all the time here.

We don't think that's. I just think, like, just because someone makes more doesn't, like, mean that I have, like, a disposable income still. Like, I have a fair bit and I'm not like, worrying and stressing about day to day stuff.

[Serena]

Can I, can I interrupt here? I feel like this is, this is going in a bad direction.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Let me ask one question and then make one observation. Are you both, like, highly intellectual too much? Yeah, I'm like, jesus Christ, I love a good intellectual. I mean, listen, I, I, I have a very long academic history myself, but. Yeah, but what I observe, I don't think.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Is that you two talk yourselves around the issue a lot. The paying the check is a financial question. Absolutely. But it's also a deeply emotional one. So. Serena, you actually explicitly said the word emotional. You said, I want this emotional, and then you didn't. I don't recall, really finish the sentence. You said the phrase, I want to be taken care of, which is highly emotional. So on your end, when the check comes and he offers and you, you created this very nice script for him to say, you know, hey, I'd like to you to acknowledge this and that. All emotional. And that's totally fine.

[Nate]

Money is emotional.

[Serena]

But what's interesting is that when we flip the script and he said to you, hey, I would actually like for you to pick up the check sometimes. Your answer was totally intellectual. Well, sure I can. But then just because I make more.

[Nate]

Money doesn't mean I don't have more.

[Serena]

Expenses than I have this. And, and what he's really looking for is what?

[Unknown]

Emotion?

[Serena]

Yes.

[Nate]

So can you just maybe try to.

[Serena]

Answer it this time? But meet him where he is and you're not off the hook either. I'm coming back to you, Nate, in just a second. I'm aware.

[Unknown]

Okay, so Nate asks me, you make more than me. I would love it if you covered this track. This is going against my nature. Just so everyone knows.

[Serena]

What nature is that. What nature is that? This going against.

[Unknown]

It's going against, like, my, like, of course, like, like I said it before, I like being treated. I don't need to be treated all the time, but it is like the vast majority of the time that I treat him.

[Serena]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So I'm saying it's like, it feels weird. Feels like a little weird. But I think, let's say we're doing it. I think I.

[Serena]

Look at the difficulty in even saying this in a fake roleplay. This is amazing.

[Unknown]

Does this happen with other couples?

[Serena]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Serena]

And what I want you to access here is that you. You even just said it. You said, this is going against my nature. What we do in these conversations is we examine our very nature. And where did it come from? Because the way that the two of you see money, treat money, talk about money, is deeply influenced by your culture, gender, socioeconomic background, but it's not necessarily about the spreadsheet, and that's what we have to grapple with. So in this artificial role play, which nobody's going to hold you to, he asks you and says, hey, I'd like for you to pay more. One, it would be nice because you rarely do it, and two, you actually make a lot more money than me. Go ahead and respond.

[Unknown]

Okay, I will treat you this time. I don't. Oh, this is. I know.

[Serena]

Why did you say that? And why did you say this time like that? Tell me. Think. Think really hard. Why did you say that?

[Unknown]

Do you want to know?

Also?

I. I think just because I don't want to make it a habit, and I know that's really mean to say.

[Serena]

You don't want to make it a habit because.

[Unknown]

Because I don't want to pay for both of us all the time.

[Serena]

Can I just say that nobody's expecting you to pay for both of you all the time. Fair enough. Yeah. Let's take that off.

[Unknown]

Totally. All right.

[Serena]

So this is so hard for me.

[Unknown]

Like, I'm. My heart is pounding.

[Serena]

Yeah, I know. I like. I like watching. You know, I like watching the difficulty. This is quite cognitively taxing, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Nate]

And.

[Serena]

And where do you feel it when you're feeling this, what you're feeling right now?

[Unknown]

It's in my chest. It's in this right here. And it's like. And it's like, I love Nate. He's my person. We're engaged, and I'm thrilled, you know? So why is it so hard for me to do this?

[Nate]

Yeah, that was one of my favorite moments on this entire podcast so far. Let's lay out what's going on here. Serena and Nate love each other.

[Serena]

They really do.

[Nate]

I can see it watching them. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see for yourself as well. Serena makes more money than Nate. Nate pays for dinner more often than Serena. Serena says she wishes she felt taken care of, and she understands that Nate can't afford to always pick up the Check Now. She suggests a very lengthy script he can use to acknowledge that maybe right now he can't afford it, but hopefully at some point in the future, he will will, et cetera, et cetera. She wants him to acknowledge that while they are splitting the check and when I ask them to invert the concept or flip the script, Nate asks Serena.

[Serena]

To pick up the check every so.

[Nate]

Often because she rarely does, and she makes more money. And suddenly Serena responds by saying, well, I can't always pick it up. I also have a lot of other expenses. And when I urge her to try to meet Nate where he is, it's excruciating for her to even voice the words, I will pay for the check. When I ask her why it's so difficult to say that she herself doesn't know, her heart is pounding. She says, nate is my person. I love him. Why is this so hard? To me, this is such a beautiful example of how money and invisible scripts and. And culture and gender and communication all roll up into the way we feel about money and the way we treat money, including how we treat money with our loved ones. Serena is struggling, but you would also be if I asked you to do something you've literally never, ever done in your life.

[Serena]

So let's try it again.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Serena]

He's asking you. When he says what he says, what is he really saying to you?

[Unknown]

He's saying he wants to be taken care of, just like I want to be taken care of.

[Nate]

Yes. Yes.

[Serena]

Okay. Meet him where he is when you respond to him. He's your person.

[Unknown]

I would love to treat you this time. I. I did. What is wrong with me?

[Serena]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Serena]

I would take as much time as we need. Do it again.

[Unknown]

No. Then we'll do it all night. I would love to treat you. It would make me really happy because I know that you are generous to me in many ways, and so it'd be my pleasure to pay for you.

[Serena]

Wow. That was fantastic. Nate. What did that feel like to receive?

[Unknown]

I felt excellent. It was really nice. I just, like. Yeah, it feels. It feels difficult a lot of times to even ask her to. To pay. Just in the sense that I don't necessarily always think framing comes with it, and that's, you know, the response I'm going to get. And so a lot of times, yeah, it just feels easier to split it or pick it up myself, but it feels nice to hear.

Yeah. Was once I got there, it actually felt kind of nice to say. And I'm not you guys here.

[Serena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Stay there.

[Serena]

I like Seeing you, Serena, build a bridge to Nate and connect on a different level than you've connected before. I would be willing to bet that the two of you have had these intellectual conversations where you spin over and over and just get nowhere. But just that moment with the heart pounding and having to pull yourself back two times from saying this time, that's a real breakthrough. Hearing yourself come to that realization, what do you realize?

[Unknown]

That it's okay. Like, it's really okay to maybe be more generous than I am and to say it's okay for me to pay for both of us sometimes. And I think also part of. I think what goes into my mind is like, if I pay for this nice dinner, if I pay for, you know, our bar tab, Nate doesn't even care. I think seeing his reaction now shows me that. I think it's a gesture that would actually go quite a long way with him, which is something I kind of filled in for myself without thinking of what it would actually mean to him.

[Nate]

Big insight here. I'm extremely impressed with Serena and everyone. Take note of how she pointed out that she had assumed Nate wouldn't even care. But now that they finally talked about it, she realized he actually would. What is something in your relationship that you assume your partner won't care about, but you've never actually offered it? I don't know about you, but one of the things I do for fun is subscribe to extremely obscure subreddits. Like, one of my favorites is called Fast Workers. It's just videos of people at their job doing stuff really fast. Right now there's somebody deboning a chicken leg in like 10 seconds. I'm never going to do it, but I sure love watching other people do it. Well, guess what? That's what it's like when you use this episode's sponsor, Superhuman, to manage your email. With Superhuman, my fingers never leave the keyboard, allowing me to process emails lightning fast using keyboard shortcuts. It saves me 10 hours a week easily. I can reply, archive, forward, save, remind, all kinds of stuff just directly from my keyboard. And it works with any email provider you already use, like Gmail or Outlook. Another feature that I like is their new Ask AI feature. I can ask questions like, what was that Asian restaurant I ate at in New York?

[Unknown]

And.

[Nate]

And it will go through your inbox to actually give you answers that are valuable to you. So if you want to buy back your time, Superhuman is a complete no brainer. It's something that I spend my own money on and I highly recommend it right now all IWT listeners get a free month of Superhuman and you can get [e-mail] Ramit that's superhuman.com Ramit R A M I T Years ago, when I was starting to sell more digital programs online, I had to set up a shopping cart and I realized I don't want to learn how to do this. It's going to take way too much time. I'm not even good at this, nor do I care. And so I went and found somebody who set it up for me. Now that turned out to be a great decision. It taught me that I don't need to understand the intricacies of everything in my business. I can find people or tools who, who can do it for me. Fast forward 15 years. There are so many amazing tools to run your business that did not exist back then. If you're selling a product, this gives you the ability to focus on creating your product and serving your customers instead of figuring out how to take payments. So if you want to be able to show up and do what you do best, I recommend you take a look at Shopify. Shopify is home of the number one checkout on the planet, used by great brands like Aloe and Skims. And that includes the Shop Pay feature that boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning way less cart abandonment and way more sales going. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. Upgrade your business and get the same checkout that brands like Alo and Skims use. Sign up for your $1 per month trial [e-mail] Ramit all lowercase. Go to shopify.com Ramit to upgrade your selling today. Shopify.com Ramit Integrate Shopify.

[Serena]

I'd like to talk Nate, about your financial situation because that's been looming in this conversation and you've mentioned a couple of things. You've mentioned that you come home tired at different times. You've mentioned that you don't have a lot of money right now and that you would like for that to change. Tell me a little bit about the training that you're currently in, how much you're making right now and what might change in the future.

[Unknown]

So I am a doctor. I graduated from medical school a couple of years ago and I'm currently in training to become a specialist in a fairly lucrative field compared to most fields. I'm in my second year of four.

[Serena]

How much are you making now and how much will you make after you're done?

[Unknown]

So I'm making about $45,000 now, but after residency to, you know, I'm not going into academics or anything. So to make a salary of, say, $300,000 is probably not unrealistic.

[Serena]

I like talking to doctors. As you can tell from looking at me, I have a lot of doctors in my family. I'm the black sheep because I don't have an MD and also types, thank you, thank you. So you're going to make 300k in two and a half years. Right now you make 45. And I assume that is where a lot of this financial stress comes from.

[Unknown]

Absolutely, yeah.

[Serena]

I want to make sure people understand that residents really face a very, very challenging financial situation. In the short term, a lot of them just go into debt. A lot of them just cannot go out. You can't just be like, meet me at a bar on a Friday night. They're like, I literally have no money. And you're like, but you're a doctor. How can that be? And they're like, I don't want to explain this for the 50th time, but after a few years, that all changes. Okay, even with your heavy debt, what do you have, like $450,000 of debt?

[Unknown]

Something like that? Yeah, about half a mil.

[Serena]

Okay, so even with that, you still make a lot of money. And in general, if you're smart, it'll all work out great.

[Nate]

The key lesson here is that a high salary solves many financial problems. Yes, yes, I know you've probably been taught the opposite by a bunch of finger wagging, naysaying financial experts who always say things like, it's not what you make, it's what you keep. Then they pull out a copy of the Millionaire Next Door, blow the dust off of it, and they say, read this. And yes, it's true. There are people who make a lot of money and they spend it all. I've talked to some of them on this very podcast. But there are a lot more people who make low salaries and are in financial trouble. If you have the ability to make a high salary, that solves many financial problems with a high salary, you can.

[Serena]

Afford to pay off debt rapidly, you.

[Nate]

Can save more, and you can invest aggressively. That's why when he says he has about a half million dollars in debt, I just shrug. Alright, fine. If Nate is smart with his money, he can pay that off without it even being a huge burden at all. So I have little patience for people who spend their lives agonizing over $3 questions like the price of dessert, because I know most of us should be spending time talking about $30,000 questions or in the case of your salary, it can be a $3 million question over the course of your lifetime. If you want to increase your earnings, you have a couple of great options. First, identify what your dream job is. Build a network that will help you land that job over all your competitors, and then build the skills of interviewing and negotiating your salary. I've taught thousands of people how to do that, which is why so many of them get $5,000 raises, 10,000, even $80,000 raises. I added a link to the dream job program in today's show notes. The second way you can increase your income is to build a side income. And you can do that by finding a side business idea, a profitable one, and then build a product or service around it. I've helped thousands of people start businesses in over 50 industries, including fitness, food, pets, cooking, and a lot more. I've included a link to my earnable program in the show notes if you want to start a side business as well.

[Unknown]

I spent the bulk of my 20s being super broke in New York, as super broke 20 somethings in New York tend to do straight out of college. And so I think where this kind of shows up in our relationship is like, wow, I'm finally in this place where I'm not super broke, and I actually can afford to be like, hey, yeah, I'll meet you for drinks, like, let me know where, or, hey, let's go out to dinner. You know, I feel like dressing up, you know, going out, not cooking, whatever. And so I'm in that phase, but Nate's not. And so that's where the. That's where the issues come up from. I think it feels a bit like a cruel joke because it's like, wow, I'm finally in this place. Place where I can, you know, more or less, like, afford to go out and not sweat it so much or at all. But I can't really enjoy it if I'm like, I'm not gonna just, you know, table for one. Like, I could. It'd be very European, I guess. But, you know, it's. I want to do these things with my person, obviously.

[Serena]

And, Nate, what does it feel like to you?

[Unknown]

Frankly, it just feels a little bit stressful because she does want to go out on weekends. And the question becomes whether I sort of start a potential argument or something about, well, I can't really do that, you know, and more often than not, frankly, I just kind of go along with it, and it just worsens the financial burden.

[Serena]

And when you say it makes the situation worse when you Just go along with it. So you. You all go out, you go to dinner or drinks or whatever, and then, am I reading this correctly? Two thirds of the time, Nate, you offer to pick it up, but from your finances, you can't really afford it. Is that how it plays out?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Usually offer to split, and then she'll say, oh, do you mind getting it? And that conversation will essentially be like, well, I'll be unhappy if we split, but if you get it, it'll be fine. And again, as we discussed earlier, I think that put it in a different light, and hopefully that'll change. But a lot of times, yeah, I do end up sort of just putting my card down and saying, okay, like, you know, right now, whatever. I'll talk to you about this later. Which I do sometimes to try and even things up.

[Serena]

And what's that conversation like when you bring up money with Serena?

[Unknown]

More often than not, it's. You know, I looked at my bank account, and I really can't afford this. Could you please help me out? You know, it. Often asking for, like, a split but settling for anything, you know, what does that feel like? Oh, it feels like I have to. I have to grovel to my significant other first.

You're making a little bit of help sounds so mean.

You're not mean. You're just comfortable. And it's hard for you to understand that.

That I don't want this to be a stressor. Like, I. I think it's like, I want you to feel comfortable saying that. Like, I don't want you to just put your card down because it's like putting a band aid over, like, the situation, but not really.

[Serena]

Well, that's why we're here, right?

[Unknown]

Bottom of it.

[Serena]

Yeah, we're here to get to the bottom of it. But it is an interesting reaction, Serena, that I asked him, what does it feel like? And his response was, it feels like I'm groveling. It's very honest. Quite a haunting response.

[Unknown]

I appreciate the honesty.

[Serena]

I do, too. And then you jumped in. And what did you say?

[Unknown]

You're making me sound so mean.

[Serena]

Right. And what were we talking about when you jumped in?

[Unknown]

Like, splitting the check afterwards?

[Serena]

Like, you know, we were talking about what he feels like having to come to you and ask for financial help. Yes. I think what I'm hearing is there's a lot of emotion in this relationship that is being ignored a lot from both sides. But Nate is really saying, like, the word groveling. That's not a word you want to hear your partner say in any Scenario doesn't matter if they're earning $0. They should not be groveling the other partner for anything. So when my partner says groveling, what should my reaction be?

[Unknown]

My reaction?

[Serena]

Yeah, what should your reaction be when your partner says groveling?

[Unknown]

No groveling allowed.

[Nate]

I thought I was harsh, but Serena is absolutely savage. I can imagine my kids one day coming home and saying, we got an A minus.

[Serena]

And then I say, sit down, and.

[Nate]

I lecture them for three hours about their heritage and academic excellence and how if they don't shape up, they're going to end up in a gutter.

[Serena]

That's going to happen.

[Nate]

But if Serena's kids came home and said the same thing, she would literally just point at the door and say, no roof for you tonight. Find your own food, you pathetic losers. Man, Serena, I am inspired.

[Unknown]

No groveling allowed.

[Serena]

Uh, no, that's not the. I. I'm thinking if I heard my partner saying, gosh, I feel like I have to grovel to Ramit. I'm like, I dropped.

[Unknown]

You don't have to grovel.

[Serena]

Yeah, like, I mean, no, that's not it either. I'm not gonna tell them, you don't have to go. My response is, oh, my God. I didn't realize that you felt you have to grovel. Why do you feel that way? And what can I do so that you don't have to feel that way? It's different, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah. One is focused on the other person. The other one's focused on me.

[Serena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, part of being generous is looking at your partner. Right. So when. When Nate's over here and he's hearing that you want the check part is not only about the money, it's also about feeling connected, feeling taken care of for you. He's hearing that, and we're going to get to that. But what are you hearing about Nate?

[Unknown]

I mean, I'm hearing that it's causing him stress to even consider splitting or asking me to cover.

[Serena]

Yeah, yeah. Or coming back to you after being like, hey, I have, like, no money. That's, like, horrible.

[Unknown]

So, no, it can't be a good feeling at all and.

[Serena]

Keep going.

[Unknown]

I guess I didn't realize that it was affecting you on that level. Obviously, I can pragmatically understand that not having enough money to go buy something or go somewhere is not good. And it probably doesn't feel very nice, But I guess I underestimated the toll it was taking on you and how it was playing into also how you communicate with me, not just, you know, within Your own brain, but also just with me as your partner, I think, like, enjoying the dinner or, you know, him making the reservation. Like, those are all things that play into my feeling of being taken care of.

[Serena]

Love it. Love it. There we go. That's awesome. So by identifying the feeling you want, and then we can start to say, well, what does that mean? Sometimes being taken care of can be having someone pay for it, but it can also be planning it, making reservations, all that. There's so many things besides money. Okay, now we're talking. I love seeing the two of you build these bridges, and I'm certain that this is opening up a whole different level of being able to communicate for you. I just want to say it is totally normal for so many of the couples that I speak to to not have this type of communication. I didn't even have it with my own wife. We had to go talk to somebody so that we could get new tools so that we could communicate about money. So I appreciate you both playing ball. We are definitely getting somewhere. Do you both feel that way, too?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I really feel. This is so, like, cheesy, but I just want to run over and, like, give you a hug right now.

[Serena]

Are you talking to him or me?

[Unknown]

Oh, both of you guys.

[Serena]

Go. Go give him a hug. Can we give each other a hug? You're next door to each other.

[Nate]

Go ahead.

[Unknown]

Okay, I'm taking a hug.

[Serena]

This is amazing. So they're both getting up. He's going into her room. She's got the dog in her hand, and he. The dog just disappeared from frame. Wait, do this on camera. Hey, I want to see this. I'm like the leering dude, watching this couple give each other a hug. If it doesn't happen on camera, it doesn't. What a nice hug. Look at that. I love that. That is beautiful. You guys are too cute. Oh, she's got to get her mic on or her headphones. One sec.

[Unknown]

She's too cute. I just dabble.

[Nate]

This is the first time I've ever seen this happening on this podcast. It's the first time I've ever seen a couple get up and hug each other in the middle of an episode. You guys have to watch this. Now we're going to talk about their numbers. And as we go through the numbers, I want you to know a little bit about Serena's numbers. Serena has no assets. She has $20,000 invested. Now let's talk about Serena and Nate's numbers. Serena has about $20,000 invested, $10,000 saved, and $81,000 in student loans.

[Serena]

All right, so that your total net worth. Negative $51,000. Okay. How do you feel about that?

[Unknown]

Not great. A lot of people my age, you know, have student loan debt. I have more than average. My parents didn't have anything saved for me to go to college.

[Serena]

Do you know when your debt will be paid off?

[Unknown]

So I refinanced earlier this year, and I think I'm on, like, a 10 year plan.

[Serena]

Okay, so you're 29. So that debt will be paid off by the time you're 39. Okay, fine. Nate, walk me through your numbers.

[Unknown]

So technically, I have two cars at this point.

[Serena]

What kind of cars?

[Unknown]

Most of the. A Hyundai and a Honda Civic.

[Serena]

My man. We can be best friends. Great cars, great choices. I have no comments. Yeah, no comments. All right, moving along, your investments.

[Unknown]

So I have. Actually might have more than this, but I think I have over a thousand dollars. But give or take in a Roth IRA and about 200 in stocks, bonds, generic.

[Serena]

So 1200 bucks. And your debt?

[Unknown]

$450,000 estimated.

[Serena]

Okay. What's the interest rate on that?

[Unknown]

No idea.

[Serena]

Really?

[Unknown]

Zero idea. We haven't been. I haven't been accruing interest because of the pause on repayment. And. Yeah, I. I don't know.

[Serena]

But essentially, Serena, you're not. You. You didn't suggest to Nate, like, hey, have you made a plan for your student loan debt or anything? Surprises me.

[Unknown]

We. I don't really think we've talked about it. It's sort of the thing where I'm almost in. You know, I'll be the first to say this is maybe irresponsible, but I feel like it's almost something that, like, I don't even see talking about, See, worth talking about until he's making more money.

[Serena]

Yeah, that's true.

[Unknown]

To a point where it's like he can't even really make a significant dent in it. So it's kind of something I'm voluntarily not worrying.

[Serena]

Nate, your net worth is negative $432,800. How do you feel about that number?

[Unknown]

Mission accomplished. Yeah, pretty. Pretty terrible, obviously.

[Serena]

And why is it terrible?

[Unknown]

It's just a lot of debt. It's a lot, a lot of debt. And that's almost exclusively medical school. I think maybe $27,000 of that is undergraduate.

[Serena]

But can I come back to the. I don't care about the numbers. I care about how you feel about it. You feel, quote, terrible. Is that really how you feel?

[Unknown]

Well, it's one of those things where I've sort of ran a bunch of different numbers and I've contemplated my way through it and essentially came to the realization that during residency to put money in like a Roth IRA ended up being more return than paying down minimally this debt that was still accruing interest. So in addition, a lot of jobs offer.

[Serena]

Wait. I'm not talking about your investment strategies. I'm talking about how do you feel about $400,000 a day?

[Unknown]

I don't think about it. I don't think about it right now.

[Serena]

That's more honest. Do you notice that when I ask how you feel, you often go into the tactical?

[Unknown]

Well, the tactical is why I don't think about it, because I've thought about it and I just.

[Serena]

It's.

[Unknown]

It's out of the way for now. I can't do anything about it. Right. I have other more pressing financial concerns at this point.

[Serena]

Did you catch that?

[Nate]

He did it again. A lot of men genuinely do not know how to answer a question about feelings. We see this as a recurring point on this podcast. Honestly, I know I didn't. If someone had asked me at age 19 how I felt about something, I would have answered back. Starting by saying, I think in my culture and to a large extent with men, we were not taught how to connect with our feelings. We were not even taught how to talk about them. And that's really what you hear Nate doing. What's interesting is that earlier he did open up. He really opened up when he said, I feel like I have to grovel to Serena about money. So we know that he has feelings. Of course he has feelings, and we know that he can articulate them. But it's challenging to get him to connect with them and say them out loud.

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[Serena]

I love it.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Serena]

I'm saying beyond the debt number is the emotional part of your relationship. Both of you with money is super important and it's super neglected to not have ever used the word groveling until just now. When the two of you have been together for a long time, that's an issue. And to not have been able to connect on generosity before, that's an issue. So I don't doubt that the two of you can come up with a really good debt payoff plan. You two are very smart, I have no doubt about that. But the area of opportunity is to be able to communicate about money and be honest about your feelings. And I, I, I, I would challenge the two of you to steer away from your natural tendency, which is talking, talking, talking. The cerebral. All right, so let me tell you what I see when I see these numbers. Are you, what do you think I think of these numbers? Negative 51,000. Negative 432,000.

[Unknown]

You're probably like, these people are really chill for how bad their financial situation is. But it's like, well, he's a future doctor. She's probably just like, I don't know, like, I don't. I went through many years of my life again where I was like struggling to make rent and student loan payments and all of that. And you know, I very recently, like within the past like four months have been like, okay, I can pay more than the minimum now. Like, I've cried on the phone with like insert loan provider here and I just like rather not do that anymore. And you know, like my, you can see like my take home and everything. So like I have like extra cash at the end of the day and we'll go into that later. But I guess that was a long winded way of saying I don't think our situation is great. You know.

[Serena]

I think that when I look at just the net worth part and knowing your ages, for you, Serena, I think, oh, 80k at 29. That's really good. I bet you she recently got promoted and started making more money. Is that true? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I can tell that I Can tell that. See, you see numbers, and I see a lifetime of decisions. Right. And I can tell that because your income is relatively high compared to how much you have saved or invested. But that also tells me that, gosh, the fact that you've put that much away in probably what's a very short time is very impressive at 29. And so, yeah, you have 80k of debt, but you could pay that off. You know, your debt payoff date. That's impressive. Less than 5% of people know that. So overall, yeah. Do you know 90% of people don't even know how much debt they owe, and 95% of people do not know their debt payoff. I talked to a lot of people. Now, as for you, Nate, I think to myself, like, if I were in your position, I would be super chill about this. Let me explain why. If I were in your position, but I had my knowledge of compound interest and income and stuff like that, this is how I would explain. I'd be like, yeah, I have a debt right now, but in a few years, I'm going to pay it off aggressively, and then I'm going to invest a ton. So I feel super comfortable with my decision. I did it. Eyes wide open. And, yeah, times are pretty tough right now. I know that I could barely afford a cocktail, but I know that that's going to change in a few years. And I know that being partnered with Serena, we're going to do more than we can even imagine together. That's how I would look at it now, saying what I said to both of you, your short term is really tough. There's no doubt about that. But can I just point this out? If you describe your net worth as terrible, and I asked you twice and you were like, yep, terrible, you weren't kidding. It's going to be very difficult for you to feel good about money. So our language really reveals a lot about us. And if you say, oh, I feel terrible about it. This is horrible, then you're going to interpret every decision as terrible. And by the way, it's not going to change when you have a million dollars in the bank, you're still going to feel terrible. Okay. Or you can say, yeah, I made a calculated bet. I know my specialty. It's going to make 300k conservatively. And I'm frugal guy. I don't need a fancy car. Hyundai, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to be fine. We're going to be better than fine. That is just a totally different set of lenses to put on. And look at the world through Serena. How much you make per year?

[Unknown]

I make 80k before taxes.

[Serena]

Okay, cool. And, Nate, what about you? You make 45?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

All right, fine. So 80k plus 45. All right. I mean, that's pretty good income together, but you don't combine your incomes. So let's talk about your expenses. This is where I'm very interested. All right, we're using the conscious spending plan. Four categories. Let's start with fixed costs. So your rent or mortgage is how much?

[Unknown]

So 12. It's 1260 combined. I pay a little bit more than half.

No, it's. It's 25.60 total.

I'm terrible at math. Yes, it's 2560. So I pay a little more than half just because I make more. Nate pays 1200 to my 36. 1360.

[Serena]

How'd you come up with those numbers? I know this was a juicy conversation. Don't lie to me.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was a negotiation.

[Serena]

Okay, tell me. I got to hear this.

[Unknown]

So rent prices, as well as everything in the last year have skyrocketed where we lived. So last year, we were paying the same. We were both paying about $1,000 each per month. And this year, our rent went up almost 30%, and so I could not really afford to split the rent at all. And so, on the other hand, Serena really wanted to stay in the area that we're in. She really liked the area. I mean, I love the area too, don't get me wrong. But as opposed to moving elsewhere where there would have been slightly cheaper rent, but, you know, maybe not that substantial. So she wanted to stay in the area, and the rent was too much for me to afford. So basically, it took a long time of me saying, I can't afford this. Can we balance this a little bit in a direction based on what we make?

[Serena]

Let me make sure I understand. So you're each paying $1,000. Your rent went up. That made it very difficult for you, Nate, to afford it. Serena, you wanted to stay in this particular area. So you had a back and forth, and you concluded with, serena, you're paying a little bit more, like $160 more per month for this apartment.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Okay. All right. What do you both think about how you are splitting your rent?

[Unknown]

At first, I was not thrilled at the prospect of spending more when we're both splitting the apartment. But, you know, after thinking about it, like, now, I'm completely fine with it, and it's totally normal, and, you know, I don't mind at All. And it was like, Nate is correct. It was 100%. You know, I didn't want to move. I didn't want to leave the area.

[Serena]

Is that why you offered to pay the extra 160amonth?

[Unknown]

I didn't offer. It was something that Nate sort of proposed. And then after, you know, some back and forth, I kind of was like, okay, I see where you're coming from. I'm. I'm okay paying 160 extra.

[Serena]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Because it was, it was like more me that was wanting to stay here. So.

[Serena]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And I make more. So it, it was, I, I understood.

[Serena]

How much more do you make than Nate?

[Unknown]

I'm making a significant. I would say significantly more.

I initially thought that it would be a good idea to basically take the. The essential net incomes and sort of base it on that. But on the other hand, that would have put me under or basically would have put all of the increased rent on her shoulders. And essentially, as part of the discussion, I sort of decided that, you know, that that would, it would feel unfair. And I understood from her perspective how that would feel unfair. And so I definitely, at some point, like I said, we arrived at whatever numbers we arrived at, which is about 160 more on her part. And I just took the W and ended the conversation.

[Serena]

I like that you take the win. That's a philosophy of mine. Take the win. But I find it's like being used in a very peculiar way in this relations. Like that's not the win I want you to take. Okay, let's just. Let me point out a few numbers. Okay. Again, these numbers just look like numbers to you, but to me, they tell a very rich story. So your fixed costs together represent 78% of your take home pay. Now, in my conscious spending plan, do you know the number that I Recommend?

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

50 to 60, right?

[Serena]

Yes. What's that? What's that smile? Serena?

[Unknown]

I was like, I don't know, I was going to guess 40 to 50, but I was like, whatever it is, it's significantly lower than what our current combined is.

[Serena]

Nate, your fixed costs represent 97% of.

[Nate]

Your take home pay.

[Serena]

How can that be?

[Unknown]

Well, I spend about 600 ish dollars on gas, give or take, every month.

[Serena]

You live far away, you have to drive. Is there anything you can do about it?

[Unknown]

Nope. I bought a Honda Civic, which gets slightly better miles to the gallon, but okay, that's good.

[Serena]

That's a good call, regardless. And the two of you don't want to move closer to work.

[Unknown]

It will be Happening after this year for essentially details that have to do with my scheduling with my program and a bunch of.

[Serena]

Okay, you're going to cut back on gas expense next year?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

And also, I have housing provided for me for six months next year.

[Serena]

Great. All right. Can I just say, Nate, you're making way less than Serena, and you're paying essentially 50. 50. That's the problem. That's the reason that when you go out to dinner, like, the two seem totally unconnected, don't they? The amount you pay for your apartment and then going out to dinner and all this drama happening around the check coming, but it's actually directly connected. Nate, you are spending too much for your portion of housing, and therefore you have nothing left over. No wiggle room. You can't even give Serena a straight answer on when you can pay her back $50 a month, and that's causing stress. Do you see how it all rolls back to one thing that is seemingly invisible in your finances?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

It's this. So, Serena, let's say that my wife and I were dating, and I was like, hey, move in with me, and I make, like, twice as much as you, but we should split it 50. 50. What would you say to that?

[Unknown]

I don't think I would love it if it were me.

[Serena]

Okay. Would you love it if it were Nate?

[Unknown]

No.

[Serena]

Okay, good. Okay, great. So we. We could meet there. I think that the most successful couples I see, especially in situations like this, where you have separate incomes, etcetera, is proportional. So proportional means if you're making 65% of the income, you pay 65% of the joint expenses. And that would probably suggest that you pay more for this rent and that Nate pay less. How would you feel about that?

[Unknown]

It's kind of like with the talking about the check, like, I think it would be really hard for me at first just because it's not something I've done ever before and not something I even, I think, would have considered.

[Serena]

Yeah. Let me ask you this before you answer, before you go on.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Let's just Fast forward, like, three years, and Nate's making 300. 325K. How much should he pay for the rent?

[Nate]

Okay, forget everything I said earlier about how I've grown up and matured, and.

[Serena]

Now I don't try to expose logical.

[Nate]

Inconsistencies, and instead I just ask nicer questions.

[Serena]

Forget all that.

[Nate]

I heard this. I had to go in for the kill.

[Serena]

Let's just Fast forward, like, three years, and Nate's making 300. 325K?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

How much should he pay for the rent?

[Unknown]

Yeah, we've talked about. I would be super weirded out if he expected me to. To pay 50. 50 for rent.

[Serena]

Wait, what are you talking about? You make more right now, and you're paying 50?

[Unknown]

50.

[Serena]

Basically.

[Unknown]

I. I know that's kind of a double standard. I know, but I'm not making that much. Like, I'm making more than Nate is now. But he's going to be making a lot more than me.

[Serena]

Oh, so it's a. It's a gradation. So what's the number where in your mind, it changes?

[Unknown]

I've never even thought about that.

[Serena]

Because it's not a number. It's not a number.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I know.

[Serena]

You're about to spend five minutes intellectualizing it, and we're gonna go round and round. It's not a number. If you made $200,000 right now, Serena, do you think you would be proactively going to Nate and saying I should pay quadruple what you pay for our rent?

[Unknown]

Proactively? Probably not.

[Serena]

I love the honesty. I love it. This is the kind of thing that's going to allow the two of you to connect about money. And, Serena, if we can keep on this path for a second, why not proactively? What would stop you from doing that?

[Unknown]

I mean, I think if we had a. If we sat down and had a conversation or Nate brought it up to me, then, you know, I think we would get to that place where it's proportional to what we're making. But I think it wouldn't be my first inclination to do that.

[Serena]

Because.

[Unknown]

Because I think it's like, I.

[Serena]

I.

[Unknown]

Mean, like, a little bit is probably societal. A little bit is probably selfish, where it's like, I have this money. I want to be able to, like, choose what I. What I spend it on. I want to, you know, go do fun stuff.

[Serena]

One second, One second. Please. Let me finish this. Keep going. Serena.

[Unknown]

It just wouldn't come to mind at first just because I can very easily rattle off other things that are also important to me with how I spend my money.

[Serena]

Your 401k, your investments, your travel, family, gifts, all of those things, for sure. You can always find something to put a lot of money towards. But I have to ask you this. Who's your person? Nate. And of all those things, shouldn't Nate be up there somewhere?

[Unknown]

Yeah. I don't think I've ever really thought of Nate as. Okay. This is someone that is a very important part of my life. If not among, you know, like, if not the most important, but I'm. The way I spend my money doesn't really reflect that. And I think it's because I've never really thought of money as emotional. For me, I think money has always been transactional.

[Serena]

That's amazing. Think about it now. Now that you have this new lens, it's almost like you took off the glasses you're wearing, which were transactional, and you put on this. This red pair of glasses, and they're emotional. Okay. And now that you have this set of lenses on, now take a look back at some of the things we talked about. The fact that Nate comes home, and within 15 minutes, you're asking him those questions with the emotional lenses on. What do you now see about that scenario?

[Unknown]

I see him coming home in his scrubs, looking really cute, saying that I miss him, maybe offering to pour him a glass of wine, talking about our day, and maybe, like, ahead of time, deciding on, like, when is, like, a neutral time for us to talk about just, like, more serious things in our relationship, whether it's money or, you know, just something else that's affecting us. But I think when he comes home from work is not that time. Cool.

[Serena]

Because it's about more than just your need to check the box, Although that's very important. You want to do it. We should find a way to do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Absolutely.

[Serena]

But the. The message of money communicates more than just numbers. Can I just point out that the two of you are soon going to make at least $380,000 together?

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's like, I can't even process that.

Same, like, honestly, you might as well.

Be saying you're gonna make, like, 380 monopoly monies together.

[Serena]

Well, should we talk about that? Because the fact that you can't process it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. And the fact that you both have compartmentalized that very large top 5% income earners away is allowing you to fight over tiny questions about dinner out. So can the two of you have a conversation? Like, can you actually just sit and with the concept that you're both together, going to be making almost $400,000 a year in less than three years.

[Unknown]

Okay. I don't know what we would do with all of that money, to be honest. I don't. And it feels like it would be happening us.

Yeah, Honestly, I filled out the same form with the future earning or whatever, and it basically was. I guess I'm paying a lot more towards my debt and savings. I. I Just, I don't know. That's part of it. I don't know what it means. I don't know. It's literally six, six to ten times more than I've ever made in my life. And it's going to literally happen in the space of like one month. And I. It's just like I've grappled with it and I thought about it and I just. It's just so foreign to me.

[Serena]

Serena, what's going to change if nothing changes in terms of the way the two of you communicate about money, behave, treat money. Four years from now, what's going to happen?

[Unknown]

I mean, it's hard for me to think, like, granular. I think like four years from now, it would be really awesome to get to a place where talking about money, thinking about money would be like a source of like, potential. Like, what can we do with this money versus right now? When we talk about it? It's hard to not be stressed about it.

[Serena]

You think you'll stop the stress the minute that he starts getting those like $30,000 a month paychecks?

[Unknown]

I think we'll be closer to. Closer to it.

[Serena]

I think the stress will go down, that's for sure. I think it'll be easier to sign a check at dinner. Rent will be, no question.

[Unknown]

I don't think the conversations will increase. I think what would happen is we would. The stress would go down and so there us needing to have conversations about it would go down, but then we probably just wouldn't have any conversations because it's probably fine. But then that might start affecting the more longer term kind of goals that we both have.

[Serena]

What do you think?

[Unknown]

Feels like it might. Sorry.

I think there's always going to be something too. Like today it might be rent or it might be, you know, splitting a check. But, you know, if we bring life into this world, like, that's a whole other thing that, like, is very much not on our radar right now. Yeah.

[Serena]

Yeah. Private or public school renovation? Vacation. Should we pay for our family to do xyz? Those are big decisions.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

I think that making like five times what you're making or whatever that number is, it's going to be a lot more. That's going to definitely reduce a lot of the day to day stress. Questions like, when are you going to pay me back? It's going to be gone.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

Questions like, who's paying for dinner? Well, once you combine your finances, I think that question will go away because you can just use a joint credit card. So that's irrelevant. But I think that if you don't change anything, that you will find yourself continuing to argue and to spin about money. And it will become even more painful because you'll say, why are we. One of you will say, why are we fighting about money? We make $400,000 a year. How can we still be fighting about money? And you're not gonna know why you're still fighting.

[Unknown]

I really don't like the sound of that.

[Serena]

Do you believe that that's possible?

[Unknown]

I think it's definitely possible. I. I would like to know how to get ahead of it and, and avoid that fork in the road, though.

[Serena]

Yeah, I want to show you how to do that. But I wanted to set the stage for the fact that just making more money does not solve your money problems. It's like a really common misconception. Basically, everybody thinks if I made $10,000 more or $25,000 or if I had a hundred thousand dollars in the bank, all my problems would vanish. And then they make it and they're like, oh, I'm still unhappy. I still worry about money all the time. My partner and I still fight. And it's. The point is you need to work on two things. One is improving your tactical financial situation so that your conscious spending plan is all dialed in. The second part is the money psychology. How do we talk about money?

[Ramit Sethi]

What is our rich life?

[Serena]

And that part is often neglected. Let me just tell you what I would do if it were me knowing what I know about money and I'm making 380k household income with all that debt. Oh, my God, I would crush it. I would have a debt payoff plan, depending on my interest rate, I would invest the max of every account I could possibly do. Because I know in my early 30s, just three or four years of super aggressive investing, talking about 50, 60, 70, 80K in a year would make me multimillionaire. Okay, make us multimillionaires. Just those first few years. Next, I would definitely increase my lifestyle spent. Let me say that again, because a.

[Nate]

Lot of people, they go the hedonic treadmill. The hedonic treadmill.

[Serena]

I go you. The hedonic treadmill is real and we should accept it. If you're making $380,000, you're still living.

[Nate]

The same way you lived when you.

[Serena]

Were making 45,000 as a resident. You up somewhere bad. You should go out to eat out more, you should take a nice trip, you should buy a new pair of shoes, do a few things. But within reason, that's what the conscious spending plan, guilt free spending categories for, because you got your percentages, it all flows. When you were making 45k and your guilt free spending was 20 to 35%, you weren't spending that much. Okay. It was probably below 20% because you're really frugal. Cool. When you're making $300,000 or $380,000 household income, that 20 to 35% is quite sizable. Now you can do it all. With that kind of income, you have some choices to make. But that is how I would do it. I would stay in a small apartment. I would not go out and buy a house first day. I would keep the cars that I've got. I would invest super aggressively for three or four years. And by the way, during that time, I don't know about your income, Nate, if it's going to go up, but I bet your income will, Serena. And so you're starting from a place of aggressive investment. And then slowly, over time, maybe you have children. Maybe you decide, okay, I want to cool it a bit on the investing. We're investing, like, super aggressively. I would like to be able to take a couple more trips. That's a great discussion to have. That's just me. I'm not saying you have to do it, but that's what I would do. And I would absolutely dominate my finances if I had 380k household income, like YouTube.

[Nate]

That's how you make money.

[Serena]

Exciting.

[Nate]

I talk about taking the win on this podcast, but I'm about to take the win for myself. I just eviscerated the hedonic treadmill losers. I laid out a sensible spending plan, including eating out and traveling. I offered two options for debt payoff, including based on interest rates, and an extremely aggressive investment plan to become a multimillionaire. Some dudes get excited about sports. I get excited about how to spend your newfound income, which just quadrupled overnight.

[Serena]

You just learn something. So based on a quick calculation, Serena, you make 65% of your joint income, and Nate, you currently make 35% of your total income. You're essentially splitting the apartment like 55. 45.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Serena]

How would you like to decide what to do for this apartment? Serena, why don't you take the lead?

[Unknown]

You said 6535 income split. I guess closer to 60. 40 now. Sounds perfect. Like it makes perfect sense.

[Serena]

Okay. And why. Why 60, 40.

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, looking, this is the first time, you know, we've outlined our fixed costs, our everything. First time I'm looking at it on A spreadsheet. And so based on these numbers, like, you know, I'm paying, I guess, 66% of my income, so, like, I guess two thirds goes to fixed costs. But if Nate is doing 97, seems kind of up now.

[Serena]

That's cool of you to say. Nate, how does that feel to hear.

[Unknown]

It's going to take some time to set in. It's been contending with this a little while. Long while. No, it's. It's nice to hear, to be, you know, that it's recognized that, like, I can't. I literally can't afford these things as I've sort of been pigeonholed into spending.

And like, another thing that I'm sort of like, it's in relief now is like, in, let's say, less than five years, it's almost a given that needs going to be paying more than 55% of our mortgage or rent. And so something I've worked on separately in therapy. Millennial women love to talk about therapy, and I'm one of them is there are times in a relationship where one partner is going to need the other person more and vice versa. And I think now I'm sort of seeing, like, maybe this is that period of our life, and it's hard to see it with objectivity when, you know, we're currently living in the year 2022, et cetera. But I think it's hard to. I think now I'm seeing, you know, maybe this is that moment where Nate's going to need me to carry the weight a little bit more.

[Serena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Than I have been.

[Serena]

Nate.

[Unknown]

I really appreciate that. I really thank you for, for thinking that it means a lot.

[Serena]

It.

[Unknown]

I know I keep saying that, but I, I feel like I've been struggling.

You know, with this and want you to struggle. And I, I think.

[Serena]

Hold on. Sorry. Let's let him finish for a second.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I've just been struggling with, you know, feeling like I, I can't. I obviously can't pay for things for you as much as I would. I would like to buy you dinner and, you know, pay my share of the rent being 90. Whatever percent, but I just can't right now. And as much as I want to, it's. It's logistically impossible. And so I, I, I really appreciate hearing sort of some. A recognition of that where I am right now isn't. And where we are right now isn't where we're going to be forever.

[Serena]

It's really nice. It's really nice to hear, Serena, you connecting your work with your therapist, with your situation that you're in with Nate right now. And, Nate, it's really nice to hear when she bounced that ball over to you, for you to really receive that and acknowledge what she said. That is a really beautiful way of talking about money. I just loved watching that. Well, Serena, I totally agree with you. I think this is one of those times. I think it's been one of those times. I think Nate may have been looking for the words to say it, but talking about money is really hard. And so it comes out on both ends. It comes out in peculiar ways. You know, when. When he comes home from work and you ask him, like, when are you going to start the debt payoff? I know you're not trying to badger him, but deep down, you want control. And this is that one thing in your life that you don't have an answer to, and that doesn't feel good. And Nate, you know that now. And she's even explicitly said, oh, yeah. At the same time, when Nate, you know, talks about the check, it's not really about the check. It's about something much bigger. I don't want to have to come to you and beg for money because I don't have $50 for gas. That doesn't feel good. And also, things are going to totally change if we can't get through this right now. What are we going to do? Are we just going to paper it over with a lot more money? That doesn't feel good. So I love that we're at this moment where we can. And I love that you reached out to me and that you're also getting help from a therapist and whatever other sources. I love it. Because you're in such a beautiful position to be able to get your process right, and then when the money comes in and it will come in, to be able to have all the money flow through this beautiful process and beautiful way of communicating together. How are you both feeling right now?

[Unknown]

I mean, I'm feeling really good. At the beginning, I said I wanted to feel like I had the tools to talk about money in a more or less judgmental way, in a less hurtful way, in a less selfish way. And I like. I mean, I'm feeling it, you know, I'm feeling like we're finally getting there a little bit. And I have to admit, I. I was perhaps a little confident going into this conversation. I thought I. I guess I didn't think it'd be this hard, and I didn't expect to have a breakthrough like we did at all. And I didn't anticipate how foreign it felt for me to. To get to that place.

I feel very synced, actually, which is nice. I think it's been really interesting. But these things in sort of a different context, I think that really helps.

I almost want to go out on the town and make you my sugar baby right now.

I mean, no complaints here.

[Serena]

I love that. All jokes aside, you paying for your partner who's in his residency does not make him your sugar baby.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Serena]

Just so we catch that. But I love the way the two of you are connecting, and I just like the smiles. That's what I want. So I'm really, really happy to watch the two of you grapple with these conversations. They're tough. It's not easy. And every minute we spend on this right now will save you years of heartache down the road. It's not about dinner, and it's not about the check. It's about how the two of you talk about money and love together.

[Unknown]

The way I see it is we're only. It's only going to get better from here, you know, and that. That feels really good to say.

[Ramit Sethi]

Be sure to come back next week to hear what Nate and Serena have been up to in the two years since this conversation. You're going to hear what it was like for them to watch this episode, what it was like to read the comments and where they are now, and.

[Serena]

You will not want to miss it.

[Ramit Sethi]

One favor to ask, make sure you get a copy of my book. It's out right now. Money for Couples. It helps my team and it certainly helps me a lot. If you've enjoyed this podcast, if you want to know how to connect with your partner about money, and if, most important of all, you want to design a rich life so you can use.

[Serena]

Your money to live it, this book's going to help you. It is out now.

[Unknown]

Sa.

[Nate]

You come to the New Yorker Radio Hour for conversations that go deeper with people you really want to hear from, whether it's Bruce Springsteen or Questlove or Olivia Rodrigo, Liz Cheney or the godfather of Artificial intelligence, Jeffrey Hinton, or some of my extraordinarily well informed colleagues at the New Yorker. So join us every week on the New Yorker Radio Hour. Wherever you listen to podcasts.