← Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi
Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi
189. “People definitely called me out”: Nate & Serena return 2 years later
01:59:10
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- [00:00]
Ramit Sethi
Big news. My new book, Money for Couples is officially out. Please go to iwt.com moneyforcouples and get a copy right now. It really helps, especially today and tomorrow. Now, I wrote this book so that.
- [00:14]
Nate
You and your partner can get on.
- [00:15]
Ramit Sethi
The same page with money. Even if one of you is a spender and one of you is a saver. Even if you worry about money and you're not sure how to get your partner to want to be a team player with you, I give you word for word scripts and I help you create your rich life vision together. Get this book right now. It's brand new@iwt.com money for couples. I think that if you don't change anything, you will find yourself continuing to argue and to spin about money and it will become even more painful.
- [00:49]
Serena
I really don't like the sound of that. And it's like, I love Nate.
- [00:52]
Ramit Sethi
He's.
- [00:52]
Serena
He's my person. We're engaged, and I'm thrilled, you know? So why is it so hard for me to do this?
- [01:00]
Ramit Sethi
I'm curious. Why did you come back?
- [01:03]
Serena
When I think back at that conversation, I didn't realize how much trauma I carried without really thinking and evaluating if that made sense for my life.
- [01:14]
Nate
With Nate, things are going to start changing. After four years of med school, it will be four years of residency and one year of fellowship. I'm about seven months from relative freedom.
- [01:25]
Serena
When I talked about money, it was never empowering. It was always a sense of stress or shame.
- [01:31]
Nate
It's kind of interesting from our perspective, seeing similar but different takes on the same problems, it really gave me a lot more peace of mind.
- [01:40]
Serena
Achieving financial goals is a really empowering feeling. It's not something I thought it would like. I never thought I would say that sentence.
- [01:53]
Ramit Sethi
This week we are back with part two of Nate and Serena's follow ups. This is one of my favorite original episodes ever and it is pretty rare that I get a chance to speak to a couple after the episode airs. So I'm excited to learn what changes they've made and how our first conversation affected them. Join me as I revisit moments from their first episode with them and we go through their new conscious spending plan two years later. I. I think you're going to be surprised. Welcome back. Oh, my gosh.
- [02:26]
Nate
Hi.
- [02:26]
Ramit Sethi
I'm so happy to see you both. It's been a while and I've always wondered how you're doing. So, yes, I want to get into all the numbers and everything, but first of all, welcome back. And how Are you both doing?
- [02:38]
Serena
We're great. I. Yeah, we're excited to be back. Excited that people liked our episode. In general, we are really good. I think the last time we had spoken, we had recently gotten engaged and now we. We are getting married in May, so we're like six months out.
- [02:55]
Ramit Sethi
Congratulations.
- [02:56]
Serena
Thank you very much. We're really excited. Funding a wedding has been definitely a challenge, but lots of really great learnings and something we are really excited to invest in. But yeah, no, we're really good.
- [03:10]
Ramit Sethi
Awesome. Nate, how about you? How are you doing?
- [03:13]
Nate
Been doing great in my last year of residency. So I'm about seven months from relative freedom. We moved a little closer to where I work, so I'm not commuting quite as much on a day to day basis. So after four years of med school, it will be four years of residency and one year of fellowship. So I'm going to get some really particular, you know, skills that I can bring into a career after that that I don't necessarily have just from residency alone. So I'm going to go do a really intensive surgical fellowship and then I'll be free. So just happier, maybe a little healthier and yeah, ready for the next chapter.
- [04:01]
Ramit Sethi
And Sarita, are you at the same company you were when we talked about.
- [04:04]
Serena
Yeah, so I'm still at my role in media. I'm a full time writer and yeah, things are great. We have. We're still like, I'm full time remote and I don't know if Nate had mentioned, but we'll be moving. His fellowship is in Dallas, so we will be moving next year to Texas and I'll just, yeah, continue to be remote. But yeah, things are wonderful.
- [04:26]
Ramit Sethi
Awesome. Okay, great. I have to know, what was it like being on the show last time?
- [04:36]
Serena
I. It was a revelation I wasn't expecting at all. It really shifted a lot of fundamental ways that I thought about not just my finances, but finances that we share as a couple. You know, when I think back at that conversation, you know, I didn't realize how maybe like how much trauma I carried from, you know, the way I was raised and the way my parents kind of dealt with money around the household. And I didn't realize how much I was bringing that without really thinking and like evaluating if that made sense for my life and, you know, my life with Nate. But I still had these like very firmly held beliefs. It was definitely like an eye opening experience for sure being on the show.
- [05:29]
Ramit Sethi
What's an example of a firmly held belief that you had that you didn't Realize you were there.
- [05:34]
Serena
I mean, like, for sure. Like, I think we talked a lot about, you know, how we split rent. And I was like, well, yeah, like, 50. 50, like, why should. I'm not getting, you know, 75% of the apartment. I'm not getting, like, I own, you know, all the bedrooms or whatever. And then Nate is. I mean, yeah, the closet is debatable, but I feel like that's par for the course. You know, I was like, I'm not getting more apartment than Nate is. Why should I have to pay more in rent? And you know it. I was only making that decision based on, like, those facts alone. But that's, like, not how life works. And, you know, if I'm making double of what he is making, you know, it was. It seems so obvious. Like, I totally get that. And I. I feel like people definitely commented about it and called me out.
- [06:21]
Nate
Don't read the comments. Never read the comments.
- [06:24]
Serena
I know they don't. They don't exist. They don't exist. But no, it was like, it was something I really had to be like, oh, I didn't think of it that way. And I also. A huge revelation that came out of that was how much stress it was actually causing Nate, which honestly was in a lot of ways even more of like a wake up call, for sure.
- [06:45]
Ramit Sethi
Wow.
- [06:46]
Serena
Wow, Ramit, you're just, you know, you're just out here doing the Lord's work and saving couples all over America.
- [06:54]
Ramit Sethi
Well, that's what. That's what I like to say, but it's nice to hear it from the couple. That's amazing. I honestly love. I loved our conversation, but I love what you just said even more. The realizations you had, the fact that you took the feedback constructively and honestly, the fact that you're back here to talk more. I'm like, you two are awesome. I love it. We all have things that we're not doing optimally, things we bring from a past history or just things we don't know. And it's hard to hear that you might be doing something in a way that's not optimal or even hurtful. But to be able to take that feedback and make changes is, to my mind, it's incredibly impressive. Nate, how about you? What was it like being on the episode when we first talked?
- [07:48]
Nate
So definitely was really enlightening, just in a lot of kind of overarching ways, kind of taking the sort of bird's eye view of the entire relationship from a more financial perspective, but also generally speaking. So a lot of the Anxieties that I personally had about my own finances sort of being in this stasis for essentially a decade basically before I'm going to actually be earning a salary that's commensurate with the amount of debt I have and all of these other issues that it was not. Not an unreasonable situation to be in, that it was okay, things were going to be okay, that it is just a pretty crazy environment financially for a few years, but then things do improve after that. As with a lot of people who go into medicine, there's a lot of delaying gratification and a lot of anxiety about delaying that gratification and not being necessarily as on top of, you know, having all of your ducks in a row financially in the meantime, but sort of understanding that things are kind of heading in the right direction, going to be okay. It really gave me, again, a lot of peace, a lot more peace of mind just in terms of on a day to day basis saying, you know, I'm not about to be homeless tomorrow, I can afford rent, can afford food, be on top of things, but not to stress as much about it, because it does, or that sort of improvement is on the horizon.
- [09:34]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, I agree. What about the relationship dynamic and the dynamic around money for the two of you? What was that like, hearing how the conversation unfolded? What do you remember feeling at the time?
- [09:49]
Nate
I remember basically being really, first of all, very surprised just at the emotional base that so much of that conversation was built on, because a lot of particularly Serena's relationship with money and the anxieties and concerns surrounding it were from a. An emotional place, not from necessarily a pragmatic or an economic place. And so that was really interesting just to sort of understand the extent of that as opposed to it purely being a financial question. So that was really interesting in real time to see that unravel.
- [10:40]
Serena
I vaguely remember us interrupting the call to. I think I went into the other room and gave you a hug because I think we were both just feeling really just like vulnerable, you know, and it's. It's interesting because, you know, if you think about finances, so much of it feels unemotional. But the truth is like, you know, I realized I wasn't being generous at all with the way I used my money and spent my money in this relationship. You know, I used to never. It sounds awful. I used to never think to, you know, treat Nate to a coffee, you know, like. Or, you know, take him out for lunch.
- [11:28]
Nate
She bought. She bought me a coffee today.
- [11:30]
Serena
I did. That's improvement. Um, but no it was like, in my mind, like, the. The idea of me being generous was like, we can go, like, 50, 50, you know, if. And I. I mentioned that, you know, I do like to be like, if it's a nice date, you know, I want to feel or like, if it's my birthday or whatever. It's like, I do like being treated it like, it makes me feel like. Like a priority and something that Nate is, like, wanting to invest in. But I wasn't even doing the same for him, and I kind of didn't realize that because I was like, I'm already so great, and I do all these other things to, like, show him that I care. But I. The biggest thing I wasn't doing was, like, one of the top things I was asking for, right? And again, like, that's like. I never saw money as, like, something that could be used to, you know, foment closeness or show your partner that you care. Like, I was just like, it's. It's like transactional, you know, and it was honestly, really empowering, and it feels good to do those things. Like, I found that out, and if it makes Nate happy, it makes me happy.
- [12:47]
Ramit Sethi
Honestly. I love watching their reactions. Right now. I feel very proud of how far they have come, and I'm so impressed with both of them. Do you notice how them watching that original conversation allows them to zoom out and see things they didn't see at the time? For example, Nate was feeling trapped when he was talking about his financial situation. He just felt this mounting student loan debt, no end in sight. Now he shifted his perspective. He zoomed out. He knows that medical school debt is temporary, and he knows that with his incoming salary, he's going to be able to wipe that slate clean. That is a simple but very powerful shift in perspective. It can also apply to you. If you have credit card debt, it can feel overwhelming, daunting. But if you zoom out, if you run your numbers in a debt payoff calculator, suddenly you realize this is temporary. I'm in control. If I pay 50 bucks a month more, I can shave it down by years. Suddenly, you don't have to feel so out of control. Second, it's fascinating to hear Serena talk about her own perceived generosity. Before our first conversation, she perceived herself as generous, but Nate didn't really agree. Remember, she believed splitting red 50, 50 was generous because that's how she experienced money as a child. But now she shifted her perspective around on generosity, and I think she's actually truly generous with Nate, which brings them closer, which Deepens their relationship. This is why I do this show. Let's watch as I show them a clip of our first conversation where Serena had a revelation around her lack of generosity. And watch what happens. I love that. Wow. You mentioned you took a break when you were talking to me, and you both got up and gave each other a hug. I remember that moment. I wonder if we can take a look at it.
- [14:47]
Serena
Oh, my gosh. This is so, like, cheesy. But I just want to run over and, like, give you a hug right now.
- [14:57]
Ramit Sethi
Are you talking to him or me?
- [14:59]
Serena
Oh, both of you.
- [15:00]
Ramit Sethi
Go. Go give him a hug. Can we give each other hug? You're next door to each other. Go ahead.
- [15:04]
Nate
Okay, I'm taking.
- [15:06]
Ramit Sethi
Wait. Do this on camera. Hey, I want to see this. If it doesn't happen on camera, it doesn't. What a nice hug. Look at that. I love that.
- [15:18]
Serena
Oh, man.
- [15:19]
Ramit Sethi
What do you notice about that beautiful moment?
- [15:23]
Serena
I mean, I feel like that was just. Like, we weren't. That was not something we planned. Like, it wasn't. It was just totally, like, we felt it in the moment. And I think that's how I'm showing Nate. Like, I see you. You know, I understand that, like, this has really been affecting you in ways I didn't know. And, you know, it's like that physical touch, that moment of closeness and reassurance. Oh, my gosh. I love that you just played that for us. I haven't seen that since the episode first aired.
- [15:53]
Nate
Yeah, I look so young and happy then.
- [15:55]
Serena
I know so much collagen.
- [15:59]
Ramit Sethi
You know, the thing that I noticed about it was none of us knew it was going to happen. It was totally impromptu. And there was just this moment that, you know, Serena, you were like, I want to give you a hug. And the thing that I love is when people are really intuitive about something, and I'm not this way. I'm not intuitive about a lot of things. I'm cerebral, and I plan stuff, and I model it out. But, you know, sometimes I meet, like, a really creative person, and they're just like, oh, I put this outfit on today because I just felt like it. And I'm like, what? What? What word is that? Felt. What does that mean? And I have been trying to learn how to be more intuitive. And there are a couple areas of life where I'm super intuitive. Travel. I just kind of know what I feel like, and I can create this experience. Money is one where I love seeing people be intuitive. And so to see the two of you get up, give each other. A hug while we're talking about this complex topic felt so good for me because it's just, it's so natural. It was like there's nothing else you can do but give each other a hug. And I really appreciated that moment.
- [17:11]
Serena
Thank you for sharing it again with us. I'm so glad that I'm so glad that we captured that.
- [17:16]
Ramit Sethi
We'll get back to our follow up with Nate and Serena after a quick break to support our sponsors. All right, let me tell you how your personal information is going to get stolen Next time you're at the airport, there's something called a man in the middle attack. You get to the airport, you look for free WI fi. It says Free SFO WI fi. You go, that sounds great, but that WI fi is actually hosted by a random person impersonating the free WI fi option. This happens at airports, coffee shops all over the place. And what happens is when you connect, all your information flows through this quote man in the middle, which can now capture what you've entered, like banking details, social media passwords, even the fact that you follow Dave Ramsey on social media. Now, it can be hard to know if you're connecting to a legit free WI fi, so consider these tips to stay safe. Look at the address bar, make sure there's a lock and you're using HTTPs in the URL bar, and use a VPN or virtual private private network to encrypt your data, regardless of whether the connection is secure or not. I use a VPN myself in hotels, coffee shops, airports, whenever I travel. If you don't want your online activity exposed, or frankly, anyone should be using a VPN. This episode's sponsor, NordVPN, keeps you safe. All of your Internet data stays safe behind a wall of next generation encryption no matter where you are. You can turn on their feature CyberSec to avoid malware, hosting websites, annoying ads, and botnet control. When you use my link, you'll get a huge discount on a two year plan plus four additional bonus months. Get that at nordvpn.com ramit again n o r d vpn.com ramit and it's risk free with Nord's 30 day money back guarantee. Get it at nordvpn.com Ramit or click the link in the description below. Every week on this podcast, I help couples get real about where their money's going. We go deep into their spending on the CSP and a lot of people know how much they spend on big things like rent, car payments et CETERA but the smaller recurring costs often creep up and they often get forgotten about. One great example of this is subscriptions. How many of us are paying for subscriptions we signed up for years ago and don't even remember? That is why I partnered with this episode's sponsor, Rocket Money, to help you save hundreds of dollars a year by canceling unwanted subscriptions. Here's how. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions. It helps you monitor your spending and helps you lower your bills. You can grow your savings. Rocket Money allows you to see all of your subscriptions in one place so you know exactly where your money is going. For any subscriptions you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. With just a few clicks, Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com Ramit that's RocketMoney.com Ramit RocketMoney.com Ramit and now back to the show. Did you both watch the episode after it went up?
- [20:44]
Serena
I did, right when it came out. So it's been. It's been a while.
- [20:48]
Nate
But, yeah, I think I did, but I think I had to break it up into a few different sessions. Just hearing my own voice.
- [20:54]
Ramit Sethi
What was it like watching and hearing yourself on camera?
- [21:00]
Serena
It was kind of tough for me. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I. I lived through that conversation. I knew what I said at the beginning, and then I sort of knew where we ended up by the end of the conversation, but definitely hearing, at least, like, what I was saying. At first, like, I sounded like a. And it was a little hard for me to hear. And I realized, like, I think, again, like, you asked us, like, what's a. An adjective that you would want people to describe you as? And I remember, like, again, mine was definitely, I think I said generous. And I was like, this is not a generous person, the way that I was talking about money. And, like, I know it came from a place of, like, fear and deep anxiety that, like, I was raised with. Like, it's. I wasn't trying to be selfish. I love Nate more than anything. But you. You wouldn't tell it by, you know, some of the things I feel like I was saying and how firmly held those, like, beliefs were.
- [22:03]
Ramit Sethi
What did you do after we hung up. Do you remember what you did right after the episode?
- [22:11]
Nate
So we sat on the couch where I was and kind of debriefed a little bit. We kind of just had a conversation about where we want to go, where we want to be in the future in terms of our own interpersonal relationship and what was important and what's not important. And it kind of sparked that conversation. But I think more played out over the next few days. But that was sort of the initial, I think, thing we did afterwards.
- [22:45]
Serena
I feel like rent was due really soon after this conversation. So we definitely reevaluated those numbers in that split. So that was definitely a big, you know, I would say change that took place pretty, pretty soon after. I think we've always been pretty open with talking about money, but I feel like we were both now, you know, a lot more empathetic to where each other was coming from. Like, you know, he will understand if I'm being a little cautious and know that it's not because I'm like, not wanting to be generous. It's because I have this, like, latent fear. And once he kind of reassured me that things are okay. And then also after I was paying more in rent and realized I wasn't bankrupting myself, I felt like I could breathe in, rest easily, and be like, oh, I can afford, like a lot more than I thought I could and not, you know, have those fears that I worried about actually happen. And so I feel like we were both just a lot more understanding of each other. You know, if he said he couldn't treat me, it suddenly wasn't something that I sort of like that, like, would result in a fight or something. Like, those things, I feel like just didn't really happen as much.
- [24:01]
Ramit Sethi
Nate, how about for you? I remember at the time you were commuting, you had a high gas cost, salary was low. What changed for you about the way you talked about money?
- [24:12]
Nate
The only thing I have to edit with what Serena just said is we have always been open with, with each other, but we may not have been before the initial conversation. We had really clear eyed about why the conversations we were having had the sort of emotional tenor or whatever sort of tone that they had. And so just going forward, being able to sort of approach conversations about money and also add on a tag at the end of and I love you and we're going to be okay. And, you know, being able to sort of understand the anxiety that was inherent in those conversations ahead of time and being able to communicate to that anxiety on Serena's End really did help keep things on an even, you know, an even platform when we were having those conversations going forward pretty much immediately. And to this day, I think we had a conversation about wedding planning recently where I literally ended it with, and I love you, and we're on the same team, and we got this, and it's going to be okay, and we'll be fine, and we'll get through this, and we're going to have a good time. You just be being a little bit more conscious about that, for sure.
- [25:37]
Ramit Sethi
Oh, my God. Hold on. Amazing. You. You too. That's so good. That is so good.
- [25:44]
Serena
I agree with everything. I agree with everything he said, for sure.
- [25:47]
Ramit Sethi
We're on the same page. We're talking about money. It might be hard right now. Maybe the numbers don't make sense. Maybe one of us feels anxious. We're going to get through this. We are on the same team.
- [25:59]
Serena
I think it was very hard for me to seem we're on the same team financially when it's like, this is my money, and then this is your money. This is how much you're making. This is how much I'm making. And I have to say, it's very empowering to be able to talk about money in a way that is, like, bringing us closer again, like, reinforcing, kind of like the strength of us as a unit. And, yeah, I wonder when we might have gotten there if it weren't for this conversation and stuff.
- [26:29]
Ramit Sethi
I just have to say I love watching these updates. So often when I speak to couples, they are like two boxers in a ring who have each gone to their own corner. They are not a team. They are not partners. They are in their own corners saying, I can't believe you spend that much at the gas station. I can't believe you spend that much at Target. And after a while, it becomes simply a ritual. We argue about money. We fight about it. It's uncomfortable. Frankly. It's unhealthy. But when we take a step back and we realize it's not you versus me, it's us as a team, suddenly we can start to make changes together. Let's watch as I remind Nate and Serena how they talked about money during our first conversation. I loved how honest you both were when we talked. Serena, especially you. You had some killer lines when we talked.
- [27:25]
Serena
Oh, no, I'm scared.
- [27:27]
Ramit Sethi
I'd love to get your. Your thoughts on one of these. Yeah, let's take a look. At this point, we were talking about Nate occasionally running low on money, and I think he Needed to ask you for help paying for something. Let's take a look. Use the word. Use the word groveling. That's the word we're discussing here. Take a look. Nate is really saying, like, the word groveling. That's not a word you want to hear your partner say in any scenario. Doesn't matter if they're earning $0. They should not be groveling the other partner for anything.
- [28:02]
Serena
Yeah.
- [28:03]
Ramit Sethi
So when my partner says groveling, what should my reaction be?
- [28:11]
Serena
My reaction?
- [28:12]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. What should your reaction be when your partner says groveling?
- [28:15]
Serena
No groveling allowed.
- [28:18]
Ramit Sethi
I thought I was harsh, but Serena is absolutely savage.
- [28:25]
Serena
Oh, my God. That's terrible. Oh, man.
- [28:33]
Nate
Oh, that's so good.
- [28:36]
Serena
Nate's enjoying this a little too much.
- [28:40]
Ramit Sethi
Nate, I have to hear from you. What do you think about that answer? That was off the cuff, by the way.
- [28:49]
Serena
We've come a long way.
- [28:51]
Nate
We've come a long way. The perspective that you go into those conversations with is sort of the perspective that most people come out of the conversations with. And, you know, credit due where it's due to Serena, because changing somebody's mind is hard. Changing your own mind is maybe harder. And to. For her to come in with those ideas of what basically we should be talking about how we should be talking about things that didn't maybe necessarily always match reality and to recognize, you know, some erroneous beliefs or thought patterns and to do work, real work, to actually approach them. I mean, it's why I'm marrying her, because that's the kind of person you want to be with. Somebody who's actually going to do the necessary work in a relationship, because nobody's going to be 100% perfect except for, you know, whatever crush you had in third grade. But they don't. They're not real. That's not real. None of it's real life. And so I just. I really appreciate that ability that she has to. You know, even if it takes a couple of conversations, will. Will understand and. And try to grow from there.
- [30:21]
Serena
My face is so hot right now, Remy. I did not expect those receipts to come out, and I'm. I am floored. No.
- [30:30]
Ramit Sethi
What do you see when you see that clip, Serena?
- [30:33]
Serena
It's. I mean, like, I'm cringing so hard at myself right now because it's not person I want to be at all. You know, I wish if I could, like, if I could answer that question again in 2024, I definitely would want to say if that is how you're feeling, then, like, that is something that Like, I need to work on and, like, understand why that is the way that you are feeling and, like, figure out what I can do so that you don't feel that way. Like, that is not a team player. You know, it's kind of hard to watch. It's, like, definitely embarrassing. I'm glad that it's out there because hopefully, if one person could relate to that and it made them sort of, you know, rethink the way that they are, then I'll be really, really happy and excited that that could help someone.
- [31:25]
Ramit Sethi
Wait, wait. Serena, you helped a lot more than one person. Just so you know, there are a lot. Yes, there are a lot of people out there who have the same beliefs you had. They like to believe that they are generous, but they're not. They're focused on their own fears, letting them guide their relationship with money and with their partner, not thinking about the impact that it's having. And maybe their partner isn't particularly skilled at speaking up and articulating these things. Maybe the partner is really busy and doesn't have the mental bandwidth to. To grapple with this. But I will say, you know, I love that clip because, like, first of all, it's just so funny. But what I also. What I really love about it is that you were so honest. And that was the thing I appreciated about both of you. You came on. You were not trying to be some, you know, have some Persona for YouTube. You literally were as honest as you could possibly be. And I think that's why people resonated with our conversation. Now, some of it was uncomfortable to hear. I think, Serena, you acknowledged that, and. And that's okay. Part of the reason that I have these conversations is that the stuff we talk about behind closed doors sometimes is uncomfortable. But, my God, you. You were as honest as possible. And then what is even more amazing is here we are a couple of years later, the way you both talk about money is transformed.
- [32:54]
Nate
It's not just money, too. We've started doing this exchange where even if we don't believe that, you know, I did something that was particularly hurtful or something wasn't necessarily my fault or the reaction isn't necessarily what your intention was, you know, it incited sort of a negative reaction, being able to stop and say, okay, well, regardless of the intention, regardless of where I was coming from, like, I'll explain that mindset, but it still made you feel a certain way. And so it's real how you're feeling, regardless of whether or not I believe that's what my Actions are trying to foment it's actually happening. So you have to acknowledge those feelings as they exist. You can't just brush past, you know, often a kind of extreme emotional reaction or intense and emotional reaction and ignore it.
- [33:56]
Ramit Sethi
So have you two gone to therapy since we talked? Yeah, actually sounds like it. That's a compliment. I love it. Yeah. Were you doing that before we talked?
- [34:08]
Serena
We individually watched.
- [34:10]
Ramit Sethi
Were.
- [34:10]
Serena
But we have since done a couple. You know, we see a couple therapists currently. I'm not the first person to say that, you know, like, couples therapy can be kind of, like, scary. It can sort of bring up feelings like, is there something wrong with my relationship? Is this not the person I should be with? But I think for us, like, you know, we. It's like, I'm treating the relationship with the amount of, like, effort and resources that reflect how important it is to me, if that makes sense. And, yeah, I mean, it's. It helps in every aspect of our relationship, especially, I think, you know, I'll speak for myself going into this step. Like, you know, we're getting married, and we've been together for a very long time. We celebrated nine years, like, a few weeks ago. But, you know, that doesn't mean that, like, we're coasting by any means. Conversations like the one that we had a few years ago, kind of proof that just getting out in the open and having these conversations is something that really just, like, makes sure that we are, like, hearing each other.
- [35:18]
Ramit Sethi
Good. You're building the tools. You're treating your relationship with the respect it deserves. Anything important deserves respect. Time and possibly money. And I think this is a great example of doing that. Serena, did your friends watch?
- [35:35]
Serena
Oh, that's a good question. I have no idea, actually.
- [35:38]
Ramit Sethi
Oh. Did you ever hear anybody say, like, hey, Serena, I saw you on this thing?
- [35:42]
Serena
Nope.
- [35:43]
Ramit Sethi
Whoa.
- [35:44]
Serena
I think I might have sent it to my sister, but I honestly don't remember.
- [35:48]
Ramit Sethi
Okay. Okay. Can I ask you another question, then? Now that you've changed your relationship with money, what do you think of some of your friends relationships with money?
- [35:59]
Serena
I don't see the same amount of stress, I guess an unwillingness to spend that. Treat money as something that enables them to, like, go have fun or have an experience and kind of just enjoy that for what it is. Whether, like. Whereas, like, for me, I could go out for, like, drinks with a friend, but, like, I feel like before, I would still be, like, stressing out about, like, a $20 cocktail, even if I said I was gonna go do this thing or, like, Buy this pair of shoes or, like, go to this wedding or whatever. It was like I would sort of torture myself in the process, which, like, at that point, it's like, why am I doing it? But now I feel like I've kind of set these boundaries in place where, you know, if I'm committing to doing something or if I'm committing to, like, taking Nate out to dinner to celebrate, like, a win that he's had, then I'm trying to allow myself to just enjoy that moment and not let my, like, anxiety, I guess, sort of get in the way of that or kind of prevent me from even, like, doing those things in the first place. I guess, like, that's probably the biggest difference between me and my. I see my friends as far as their spending habits.
- [37:19]
Ramit Sethi
Nice. We had a big discussion about. I believe it was a trip to another country to visit your family, Serena.
- [37:26]
Serena
Yeah, Japan.
- [37:27]
Ramit Sethi
To Japan. And there was a whole thing about, I want you to come, but then you need to pay me back. First of all, what happened with the debt?
- [37:34]
Nate
I don't think I paid the entirety of it, but it did contribute to a decent extent. I totally forget the details. Unfortunately, it didn't really end up impacting the trip as much as it could have or anything like that. It. It was really, really a nice experience. And whatever. That mix of me paying back and having some of the debt forgiven, it was fun because we communicated about it.
- [38:04]
Ramit Sethi
Right.
- [38:04]
Nate
In whatever way. Again, barely remember.
- [38:06]
Ramit Sethi
But isn't it funny how some of the things that are so existential to us at the time then become forgotten later on?
- [38:13]
Serena
Yeah. Like, I can't believe I felt that strongly about it in the moment. Looking back on it now with kind of a fresh perspective.
- [38:21]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. You know, it's funny, in. In our financial lives, there's thousands of decisions we will make, Everything from should we get the cheap bread to the nicer sourdough bread, all the way up to, should we buy a house, should we retire at age 62 or. And I never wanted to drown in those decisions because, like, if I want really nice bread, then I'm going to fight for the really nice bread. And I know that about myself. I don't want to get in that place. So I decided there are a few key things that matter to me. Our savings rate, our investments, just a few big things. The things that are going to be worth a lot of money. And then I wanted to create a life where I don't have to, like, let the dark side out when it comes to what type of pineapple brand. Should we buy?
- [39:14]
Serena
Yeah.
- [39:15]
Ramit Sethi
And I find that to be such a relief, I think for me, definitely for my wife, the idea that there's a few things that matter. Let's talk about them, let's be honest about why, let's make sure we hit those, and for the most part, let's build a life where we don't have to worry about the price of can we get a cheeseburger or no? Yeah, sounds like you've come to that concept as well. There are things that matter and maybe things that we can be a little looser about. We'll continue our conversation with Nate and Serena and hear about their wedding plans after a quick break to support our sponsors this year. I'm proud of being in business for 20 years. 20 years ago I started this business in my college dorm room and I grew it since then and that is why you and so many other people have watched and read and listened to my material. I'm so thrilled that you are here. It's a good reminder that the things worth building are also worth protecting. Making an estate plan means getting security of your assets and peace of mind for you and your loved ones. Now, with Trust and Will, you can create and manage a custom estate plan starting at $199. Go to trustandwill.com ramit for 10% off plus free document shipping my coworker recently created a will for her and her family on Trust and Will. Here's what she said. It was incredibly easy and straightforward. I followed very simple prompts to fill out all my personal information, my family, my beneficiaries, assets, etc. In less than an hour it produced a will, power of attorney, documents, last will and testament, and HIPAA authorization. Then I can download the docs and have them executed or even hire an attorney to look them over for me. Now, I personally used an attorney for my own estate plan, but I recognize that not everyone has access to an estate attorney. If that's you, Trust and Will is a great option. It makes estate planning accessible and affordable. Their simple process guides you from start to finish. Save loved ones time and stress by having all your documents in one place with encryption and live customer support is available through chat, email and phone. Secure your assets and protect your loved ones with Trust and will. Get 10% off plus free shipping of your estate plan documents by visiting trustandwill.com ramit that's 10% off and free shipping at trustandwill.com ramit I recently spoke to a couple who got duped into Buying whole life insurance. Please stop this. Every time I talk to somebody who buys whole life insurance, it's quickly apparent that the only person who benefits from this is the whole life insurance salesman. Insurance is not an investment. It's meant to protect you and your loved ones in case something happens to you. If you have people who depend on you, you want to make sure that they are protected in case something happens to you. You do that often with term life insurance. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done right here, right now. You could be covered right from your couch in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. Fabric has flexible, high quality policies that fit your family and your spending needs like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. It's all online. It's on your schedule so you can apply when it's convenient for you. There's no risk because there's a 30 day money back guarantee and you can cancel at any time. They have over 19005 star reviews on Trustpilot with a rating of excellent. So join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes@meetfabric.com Ramit that's M E-E-T fabric.com Ramit M E E T fabric.com Ramit the policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. And now back to the show. I want to talk about wedding planning. Congratulations on the wedding. That's awesome.
- [43:18]
Serena
Thank you.
- [43:19]
Ramit Sethi
When did you kind of decide that you were going to get married?
- [43:22]
Nate
I think we had gotten engaged before the initial conversation we had going from there and we knew we wanted to not have a wedding in the state we're currently in. And that just immediately throws a pretty big wrench into ability to plan and get things together. It is just not easy to do those things from a distance. So it did take a little bit of time.
- [43:55]
Ramit Sethi
What's it been like planning the wedding together?
- [43:59]
Nate
It's been really nice. We intentionally tried to pick a venue that had some of the stuff included so we didn't have to deal with choosing our own, you know, cater, choosing everything. So there's a few things that we still have to narrow down but we're doing really well in terms of actually checking things off the list. We know we have deposits that are going in and but overall the decision making itself hasn't been too difficult.
- [44:29]
Ramit Sethi
Are you having fun planning it?
- [44:31]
Serena
It's really fun, at least for me. There are a lot of moving parts. I feel like up there with my college degree and, you know, future house, like, this is one of those big life expenses. I personally, I think, have tried to not let the stress of planning a wedding get in the way of why we're doing it. I feel like, in a lot of ways, it has brought us closer and, you know, it feels very natural for us. Like, it doesn't feel like, you know, like it's not the right time. Like, I am. I say this now, check back with me in, like, six months, but I'm, like, not really nervous. I feel like it's just been exciting to plan what this day will look like for us and our guests.
- [45:11]
Ramit Sethi
And honestly, what a blessing. I mean, really to be. To see how far you've come, not just financially, but relationally is, like, really amazing. And just to have a little part in that feels so good. How did you decide on how much you were going to spend?
- [45:28]
Serena
I've been in a couple weddings, did a lot of research online, got some books, really dove in. But, like, again, I wasn't about to make this, like, my whole personality or anything. It sort of started with, like, well, what would be like, our dream wedding? And then, like, scale it back to, like, a responsible version of that and then sort of, like, again, like, looked at what our finances are going to look like in the year, like, leading up to it, what do I think we'll be able to realistically, comfortably afford in, you know, it's like March, April of 2023. So it was a lot of, like, again, like, projecting and looking at the finances and seeing what we can make work.
- [46:09]
Ramit Sethi
Did you. Did you involve family money? Did you take part of your savings and put it towards the wedding? And how did you think about how far to go?
- [46:21]
Nate
So I actually came in initially from a kind of different perspective, which is looking around at different venues and seeing what it costs. So there are cheaper venues that you need to hire outside catering, which is larger costs, and figuring out that, you know, the cheapest venue on paper might have other hidden costs inherent to it. And so figuring out overall, again, what is the granular amount that a realistic wedding is going to cost, regardless of where it's held, and from there, essentially going to the. What can we do? What do our finances look like?
- [47:00]
Serena
We learned a lot about just, like, how expensive the wedding industry is, period. You know, it's like $30,000 is like kind of a shoestring budget, which is insane. Like, it's insane.
- [47:11]
Ramit Sethi
But.
- [47:12]
Serena
But, yeah, I agree with Nate. We sort of Looked at the venues, and also we're like, okay, what are, like, the most. I feel like we both sort of. We didn't write this down necessarily, but we came down, like, came up with, like, what's the most important aspects of the wedding?
- [47:25]
Ramit Sethi
Like, what are they? What are your top three?
- [47:27]
Serena
I mean, I would say, like, the venue slash ambiance slash, like, physical space was probably the most important. Below that, we're wanting to invest in photography because it's sort of like, I feel like I've again read and it makes sense. I've read of couples that, you know, skimped on the photographer.
- [47:48]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah.
- [47:48]
Serena
And then ended up regretting it. And then maybe like, third would be like, right now we're figuring out, like, our DJ slash, like, sound because, you know, we're getting married outdoors. We want to make sure people can hear us. I don't want to scream my vows into Nate's face. That's, like, not romantic.
- [48:04]
Ramit Sethi
You know, I will tell you, we went through all of this. The reason I asked, are you having fun, Nate? I think this is especially true for guys when you're engaged. I talked to a lot of friends and married people and loved ones, and there were two kind of reactions. One was, oh, God, it's going to be the longest year of your life. And. And then the second one was, wow, you're going to have an awesome time planning the wedding. And I just intuitively love the idea that I'm going to have fun, we're going to have fun. And we decided to make it the most fun year of our life. And so we made that choice. We went through it. We got the opportunity to build something together. And I love the way you're talking. You know, we have these trade offs. We have a certain amount we can spend. We better find the thing that fits. It's kind of like your first big project as a married couple. And. And also I just want to say I'm glad that we got a great photographer because we look at our photos every anniversary. At the very least, we look at our videos, we look at our photos, we pull them up, we watch them, we learn new things. It's such a beautiful ritual that we have. And I'm so glad that we had our photo video team. So I'm. I'm so excited. You're going to have a beautiful space.
- [49:23]
Serena
Ironically, for me, like, the dress is like, yeah, it's important and I want to feel great in it. But it's like a white dress is a white dress is a white dress.
- [49:33]
Nate
So you might get some pushback on that, but.
- [49:36]
Serena
I know, I know, but it's like. Like, yes, I want it to be nice, but it doesn't have to be like. I mean, some of the wedding dresses are insane. I would love.
- [49:46]
Ramit Sethi
I love. I love your point of view. I love anybody who has a point of view. You might have a different point of view than me, but I love a person, or certainly a couple that's like, this is our point of view. We want, I don't know, this DJ or this thing because it's important to us. Amazing. That's what a rich life is. It's turning that dial until it feels right for you. So I think that's amazing. Okay.
- [50:12]
Serena
To answer your question, though, I did use a pretty significant chunk of savings for some of the upfront costs. Nate's parents are generously giving us, like, quite a large chunk of the overall costs as well. And my parents. My parents are contributing a little as well.
- [50:32]
Ramit Sethi
Did you talk to them about this? Like, how did the. The parent contributing help come in?
- [50:37]
Nate
So I had a grandparent pass. There was some money that had been set aside for. From them to go towards a wedding already. And so that was something that I was supposed to be gifted by them, but unfortunately wasn't the case. But that still exists. And then also my parents also wanted to contribute. And knowing financially where I am right now and knowing that at some point I'm going to be the one taking my family on vacation somewhere, I think that was not a difficult thing for them to want to contribute.
- [51:23]
Ramit Sethi
Were your parents like, which, hey, we'll give you 20. $20,000. But according to my calculations, in the S&P 500, that money doubles every seven years. So on a nominal basis. So therefore, we expect when you take us on the cruise, we're not going on a Carnival cruise. Okay. They sort of laid it out for you. Did they treat it like an investment? Tell the truth?
- [51:47]
Nate
No. However, what's really interesting. So just not my parent style. My mother just retired, actually, a few months ago, which has been a long time coming. Semi retired, mostly retired. So it's been a big change. And it's kind of interesting because it's actually brought out some of my parents own. What's the word I'm looking for? Maladjusted views of money. Oh, tell me themselves. They've always been frugal my whole life. And so it's similar to Serena's not being able to buy nice things. I hope they don't think I'm throwing them under a bus or anything. But this is a huge single expenditure that completely goes against their relative frugality. And it's definitely been a bit nerve wracking for them to be spending the money even though they, they do want to be treating us. But it's, it's kind of interesting from our perspective seeing similar but different sort of takes on the same problem as from.
- [53:00]
Ramit Sethi
So in other words, they, they have the money, they want to help, but it's hard for them to pay all that at once. Probably because your mom's retired, the income's not coming in and will we ever get it? What if we don't have enough, etc. Correct.
- [53:15]
Nate
Yeah, it's the, the retirement funds are there, they're, they're ready to retire financially and this is something that they were planning for. But I, yeah, just the anxiety about making a big purchase. That's sort of a one time thing. You know, there's a lot of concern that we're not going.
- [53:33]
Ramit Sethi
It's scary buying anything big. You know, the first time I bought, well, I don't own a lot of assets except for clothes. I think my most expensive asset is a coat. But you know, the first time you buy something expensive it's like, oh my God, this car or this whatever. This trip could really, it could, you know, you kind of go to the worst. It could ruin me. It's probably not going to ruin you, but it's scary. I've got the perfect gift for you to get for the holidays. If you have someone who's impossible to buy for, they already get everything they want and you don't know what to get them. Consider today's sponsor Masterclass. With Masterclass, your loved ones can learn from the best. It's quite amazing. Masterclass is the only streaming platform where you can learn from over 200 of the world's best people. For example, you can learn from Judd Apatow on comedy. You can learn how to be a better cook. With Thomas Keller, you can learn from Steph Curry. Don't know what he's going to teach you. I don't know anything about sports, but you can learn from tons of people at elite levels in their own words. My team has actually used Masterclass as a great gift for the person in their life that's difficult to buy for. I've purchased Masterclass myself and if I was stumped on what to buy someone else, I would consider giving them Masterclass. Plus, there's no risk. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. So consider giving Your loved ones. A year of learning with Masterclass. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays. Sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to masterclass.com/ramit for the current offer. That's up to 50% off at masterclass.comit masterclass.comit Congratulations on planning the wedding. Congratulations on getting married. I'm so excited for both of you. I love that you have your family involved. I love that you're thinking about it together and planning it out. That's the way it should be. So beautiful. I want to look at your numbers. Are you cool if we take a look?
- [55:45]
Serena
Definitely.
- [55:46]
Ramit Sethi
All right. So you did the CSP again. What was it like?
- [55:51]
Serena
I made a lot of money in my 401k that I did not realize and that was really cool.
- [55:59]
Ramit Sethi
That's pretty good.
- [56:00]
Serena
I'm still at the age where I am like, to me it's almost like monopoly money because, like, I'm not touching it, I'm not using it. I think there's a way for me to access it, but I feel like Uncle Sam will get really pissed at me if I do. So it's just like money that is just like hidden away somewhere that I honestly don't even think about. My company got acquired since our last conversation and there was like a match program that I wasn't taken advantage of, which I did now. And I think my 401k doubled in the time that I last filled this out. So that was really awesome.
- [56:35]
Nate
I had no idea, by the way.
- [56:37]
Ramit Sethi
I had no idea.
- [56:38]
Serena
It's awesome.
- [56:39]
Ramit Sethi
American to wealth.
- [56:41]
Nate
Yes. Just kidding.
- [56:43]
Serena
Not really. Like, it's good. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's good, it's solid. But then, yeah, like looking at my savings, for example, like, I did take a large chunk of that out and so I am rocking with like less than I normally would have. But I'm again trying to not freak out about it because, you know, hopefully I'm only getting married once and I'm okay with it being a large expense at this point in my life. Knowing that, you know, it'll even out. Like, you know, we won't be paying rent for a few months at the end of the residency program and then, you know, we'll be moving to a relatively low cost city compared to, you know, the last two places we have lived. And so again, it's something that I'm trying to like, I'm not really worried about it right now.
- [57:29]
Ramit Sethi
Love hearing that. Love that, that's that's a more sophisticated understanding of money that you've planned for it. You have money in savings. Sometimes savings get used for specific purposes. And you know what's happening in the future, you know, specifically these months, we're not going to pay rent. That means we're going to save X dollars. This thing is going to happen. Income is going to go up from Nate's side and on and on and on. So you're looking at the full picture.
- [57:59]
Serena
I'm really glad to hear that because, you know, I. I've felt this way, but there is like a tiny like piece in the back of my head that's like, am I just being really naive about the situation and like Rumi is going to tell me, like, Serena, you need to get your together or something.
- [58:16]
Ramit Sethi
We haven't looked at the CSP yet. Let's look at the numbers. But just in general, the way you talk about it. See, what I like is that it's multidimensional. One dimensional is the money is going away. That's so one dimensional. That's very childlike. But multidimensional is I take account for all of my money, net worth, 401k, cash flow, all of it. And I know that some can go down, time can make up some of it, etc. Etc. So I think that's really sophisticated. All right, let's take a look at the CSP. All right, so partner one, assets are zero. Investments, 43,000, savings 5,000 and debt 68,000 for a total net worth of negative 20,000. Partner two, that's Nate, 18,000 in assets. Investments are 3,000, savings are 1,000 and debt is 460,000 for a total net worth of negative 438,000. Okay, fine. So you're in the negatives.
- [59:15]
Serena
You're very chill about that.
- [59:17]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, I mean, yeah, let's. So just so everybody listening, everyone's like, why is this guy just like skipping over it? Let me tell you. So what is that, student loan debt?
- [59:27]
Serena
It's just student loan debt. It's not credit card debt or anything.
- [59:30]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, and. And you're paying that off to the tune of $900 a month. Is that extra or minimum?
- [59:36]
Serena
It's extra.
- [59:37]
Ramit Sethi
What's your minimum?
- [59:38]
Serena
I think my minimum is around 600.
- [59:40]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, so you're paying 900amonth. So you're paying extra. Okay, fine. And then that interest is a real.
- [59:46]
Serena
So I'm trying to.
- [59:48]
Ramit Sethi
What's your interest rate? Like 7 or 8%?
- [59:51]
Serena
Yeah, it's like 7. I think it's right in the middle. It's brutal.
- [59:54]
Ramit Sethi
Fucking hate that. Okay, Nate, you have $460,000 of debt, which is medical school, correct?
- [60:02]
Nate
Yeah.
- [60:02]
Ramit Sethi
Anything else? You got a $200,000 truck in there or something I didn't know about?
- [60:06]
Nate
Oh, I wish. No, it's. So that's some left from undergrad, about, I think, 17,000 from undergrad. But then almost exclusively. Yeah. Four years of medical school in New York City. Very high cost of living, and so a lot of. Yeah. Extra loan from there.
- [60:26]
Ramit Sethi
All right, so everyone's wondering, like, why am I not freaking out? Why am I so calm about this? In fact, why are they so calm about this? Can anyone tell me why?
- [60:34]
Nate
Good question.
- [60:35]
Serena
We're very calm about it.
- [60:37]
Ramit Sethi
Why is that?
- [60:41]
Nate
So I am going to be a doctor in a lucrative subspecialty, and I'm going to be able to aggressively pay that down. And aggressively, by the tune of even as much as 100,000 or more per year, hopefully in the next 18 months. That's gonna.
- [61:03]
Ramit Sethi
Oh, yeah.
- [61:04]
Nate
So, yeah, getting there.
- [61:07]
Ramit Sethi
Listen up, all you American freaks out there who don't understand how it works. Yes, you should be careful of debt. Yes, of course. But also a very high income. Solves a lot of financial problems. Nate, what kind of income are you going to make?
- [61:21]
Nate
Ballpark, I think average salary right now is around three fifties. And my subspecialty is going to be higher than that, most likely.
- [61:34]
Ramit Sethi
Like, how much?
- [61:37]
Nate
It depends on how much stake in ownership of surgical centers, Things like that. Probably going to end up in the realm of it. This is a generous estimation. 5 to 600,000 to upwards of a million. If I am invested in property and practices that are doing well.
- [61:58]
Ramit Sethi
What the hell? All right, so you can see why no one's really concerned. It's like, make sure you don't lose your job. Okay. And keep your hands. Fine. But aside from that, you can have a tremendous amount of debt, as Nate does, but if you have the corresponding tremendous salary, then it's just a matter of extra zeros. Okay? We might as well have this be 46,000 in debt, and Nate could pay it off, which he's going to do. And I also think you seem to be pretty reasonable about keeping your expenses low. I don't think the two of you are going to go crazy, pay it off aggressively. You'll be set for the rest of your life.
- [62:33]
Serena
It's a very fortunate position for both of us to be in. And I, as you know, his future wife, we both are 100% on the same Page. Honestly, we don't need a bigger space than what we currently have. We don't need to be, like, wearing head to toe Gucci every day. We really want to tackle, like, Nate's debt primarily in those immediate months, years of when he's making more money. That's like 100% our goal. I would say that. And then maybe like a down payment with, like, our finances combined would be sort of like the first steps.
- [63:13]
Ramit Sethi
When one or two people go through a massive salary increase, I always. I always encourage them to talk about it. What are we going to do? Let's make our decisions before it comes in. Because when you Suddenly see, like $50,000 a month coming in, it becomes you. You actually get really sloppy. So I like to make the decisions before. And we go like, okay, these are our priorities. And I actually encourage couples to increase your spending in certain areas. You know, if you like the dinner out, go for it. That's not going to affect you anymore. But also, I like to have one central focus for the money. Like, we want to pay our debt off aggressively. We know the exact month and year it's going to be paid off. We're going to focus on that. Of course we'll take a trip. Of course we're going to go out to a bi weekly dinner or weekly. But this is going to be our focus. Let's do it. And then when that date comes, you're about to pay off the debt three to six months ahead, you sit down and you have another conversation. Oh, my God, what are we going to do with these thousands of extra dollars we're going to have per month? And then you raise your standard of living. You know, get a nice shirt, take a nice trip, keep investing aggressively, etc. All right, you guys are great. Let's keep moving. So we need to keep in mind that your income is about to increase, but as of currently, it's jointly $131,000. That's $7,000 a month from Serena and $4,000 a month from Nate. Okay, 131K. With that said, let's look at your fixed costs. What's this number here, Serena? Fixed cost percentage.
- [64:48]
Serena
59%.
- [64:50]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, 59%. Not bad. Not bad. 59%. All right, good. Taking a look here, I mean, you're within my parameters, so I have no comments. Let's just. I will note that we have $900 of debt payments from Serena. Nate, you're not yet paying off your debt because you're still going through it, correct?
- [65:10]
Nate
I am signed up for the save plan, which is currently on hold in the courts. And so all of my debt is in deferments and just racking up interest. But again, it's going to be racking up interest because I can't pay down the interest right now. At some point that'll restart. Hopefully not for 18 months, but we'll see.
- [65:31]
Ramit Sethi
All right. How are you only paying $400 a month in groceries?
- [65:35]
Serena
I think that number. I think one of us. I don't know how. Is paying more in groceries than I am. That doesn't seem right.
- [65:43]
Nate
You gotta bump that up.
- [65:45]
Serena
Maybe. Maybe I meant to do 250.
- [65:48]
Ramit Sethi
Should we change it?
- [65:49]
Serena
Yeah, let's do that. Thank you.
- [65:50]
Nate
That's more accurate.
- [65:52]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah.
- [65:52]
Serena
I don't know. I feel like we. We have like, a couple of our, like, standby meals that we can make that we love, that are, like, quick, easy, healthy, inexpensive.
- [66:03]
Ramit Sethi
What is it? Tell America because they need to know.
- [66:05]
Serena
Oh, my God. So we have this. Can I, like, blow the lid off of Martha Tacos, Nate?
- [66:12]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, what's happening right now?
- [66:14]
Serena
We call them Martha Tacos because the queen herself, Martha Stewart. We found this recipe because I had actually tried and reviewed Martha Stewart's, like, meal delivery service. It's called Marley Spoon free plug. It was great. And one of these recipes, like, we're not gifted chefs. We're both fine, but we can make the most fantastic taco dinner in, like, 20 minutes flat. And it caught. I wish I could price this out, but it has to be, like, $15 chicken. Like, maybe like, 15 total.
- [66:56]
Ramit Sethi
Hold on. How is it possible that the two of you are doing a better plug than I've ever done for any of my sponsors on this show right now?
- [67:04]
Serena
Wow.
- [67:04]
Ramit Sethi
How is that possible? We're.
- [67:05]
Serena
We're available for a small fee.
- [67:08]
Nate
Yeah.
- [67:08]
Ramit Sethi
Jesus. Can we. I'm gonna tell my producer. We gotta hire you all because I think you're way better than I. Yeah.
- [67:16]
Serena
No, and, like, you know, we still, like. I love to order in food. We love to go and, like, get dinner once a week. I would say is about once, once, twice a week.
- [67:25]
Ramit Sethi
Place do you go to on a weekly basis?
- [67:28]
Serena
I feel like we'll usually do something like middle range, sl. Divey whenever we sort of feel like.
- [67:35]
Nate
It'S sports bar that we could go and watch a football game or something on Sunday, have a dare to burger.
- [67:40]
Serena
And then maybe, like, once a month we'll do something nice.
- [67:43]
Nate
And that's.
- [67:44]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Who pays?
- [67:47]
Serena
I think we've been alternating lately. What do you think, Nate? Or, like, just splitting.
- [67:52]
Nate
I don't even. Yeah, mostly splitting, probably. So because of having. From having those conversations previously, it feels less onerous to split it because I know that in the near term, if I get to the point where, okay, I just have to pay for an oil change or my car repairs or whatever it is, and I can't split this meal or whatever, I am confident. I trust that Serena will actually say, oh, yeah, makes sense, and we'll help out, or vice versa. She's feeling particularly anxious and relapsing, anxiety wise. Then I don't mind covering it because I know that basically we're coming at it from a point of cumulative equity. We're over time, equaling things out.
- [68:47]
Serena
And it's also, like, it's a lot easier for us to have the conversations of, like, do you actually mind getting this one? Like, you know, Nate has said that to me, and I'll say, you know what? Like, sure, I got this, and then I put my card down, and then we, like, that's kind of like the end of that, you know? So things, like, doesn't happen.
- [69:05]
Nate
Life goes on.
- [69:05]
Serena
Yeah.
- [69:06]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah.
- [69:06]
Serena
Literally, like, I don't. Like, my credit score doesn't just plummet as a result. So things like that. That, you know, again, like, I would agonize over it. I might. You know, it might be a point of contention now, sort of. It's like, yeah, we're fine. I don't think Nate is trying to, like, I'm not. He's not trying to use me as, like, a sugar mama. Although I love that for me, you'd.
- [69:29]
Nate
Be a terrible sugar mama.
- [69:30]
Serena
I would be so bad, you know?
- [69:32]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, let's. Let's keep looking at the CSP here. So we're at 60%. And let's keep moving along. Investments are at 3%. Now, Serena, I believe you are doing some pre tax stuff. Is that correct?
- [69:46]
Serena
Mm.
- [69:47]
Ramit Sethi
How much do you know you're doing per month?
- [69:49]
Serena
Ooh, I do not know.
- [69:53]
Ramit Sethi
Do you have a sense of your percentage from your paycheck?
- [69:57]
Serena
I believe it is 6%.
- [69:59]
Ramit Sethi
Okay. And they match it.
- [70:01]
Serena
What, they match up to 4%? I think.
- [70:06]
Ramit Sethi
So let's just, like, ballpark it to make it easy. Math. Let's just say 700amonth.
- [70:11]
Serena
Whoa.
- [70:13]
Ramit Sethi
Ballpark. I just put basically 10% of your income in there, so that's 12%. That's. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. You know, Great. Okay. And that's mostly yours. But let's keep moving along. Savings goals are at 12%. So you have an emergency fund at $1,000 a month.
- [70:37]
Serena
I feel like these numbers maybe shifted quite a bit just because, like, we're kind of dialed in on paying for our wedding now, so things like vacations and gifts are just less of a priority.
- [70:49]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, good. That's how it should be. You have a big expense, you got to cut somewhere. That's great. And then finally you have guilt free spending at 17. Well, not really 17%. Actually 25%, which is 2,000 bucks a month. Are you spending this much on guilt free spending?
- [71:04]
Serena
I don't think so.
- [71:06]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, I don't think so either. I suspect most of it's going towards the wedding.
- [71:11]
Serena
Yeah.
- [71:11]
Ramit Sethi
How much did you take out of your savings for the wedding?
- [71:14]
Serena
I think I took out around five or six thousand dollars.
- [71:21]
Ramit Sethi
Okay. And Nate?
- [71:25]
Nate
All of it. One to two thousand, I think, at this point.
- [71:30]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, got it. All right, cool. So, well, here's what I have to say. I'm really glad your salary is about to go way up, Nate, because otherwise we'd be having a very different conversation. Okay. Yeah, yeah, me too.
- [71:44]
Serena
But we know this is good.
- [71:46]
Nate
I'm getting a bump in six months. I get a like 60% bump in six months. And then after that.
- [71:52]
Ramit Sethi
Oh, that's good. So, okay, so you'll go up to like 10k. Okay, good, good. That's going to make a substantial difference mass you want to see?
- [72:01]
Nate
Let's look at the difference between.
- [72:03]
Serena
Let's play with the numbers.
- [72:04]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. All right, look, so you're going to go up to like 10k a month, Nate. Is that right?
- [72:10]
Nate
No, it's going to be around 6.5k, I think.
- [72:14]
Serena
Pretty close to what I'm making currently.
- [72:17]
Ramit Sethi
All right, let's just match it. Let's just. Just for easy math. Oh, my God. All right, so what I did, everybody was crazy. I changed his income. They're basically making the same income. What just happened to your fixed cost number? It went from 60% to what?
- [72:32]
Serena
47.
- [72:33]
Nate
47.
- [72:33]
Ramit Sethi
47.
- [72:34]
Nate
And this is. This is signed, my name is on paper. This is happening. So this is real right now.
- [72:40]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, so look at this, everybody. 47%, which means you have margin. You have a lot of margin. Means if you want to get an extra taco, go ahead. But more importantly, the way I look at it is I would then begin saving more. That's actually the first place I would put because, you know, you've got a relatively low amount in savings. You've got 6,000 and, you know, hopefully everything goes great, but you could suddenly be putting multiple thousands of dollars per month in your savings just in case something goes wrong.
- [73:13]
Serena
I would love that.
- [73:14]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. And you can do that. And then, of course, you can also start paying off debt a little bit more aggressively. As you both know, if you ever run a debt payoff calculator, especially with your balances and interest rates, even an extra 100 bucks a month is amazing. But an extra 500 can shave off years from your debt payment. So you have the ability to do that soon. That's fantastic. Question. Do you combine your money into a joint account or not?
- [73:42]
Serena
We don't currently, but it's something we're like right now actually talking about. I feel like it was just something we weren't going to do before we get married, even though I know some couples do it once they move in with each other, which we've been living together for a long time.
- [73:57]
Ramit Sethi
There was a book, chapter nothing, which shows you the exact account setup that's called Money for Couples.
- [74:04]
Serena
We'll have to give that a read because, yeah, it's something that we are currently looking at. We just don't want to get, like, screwed over because I think you may have talked about your distaste for bank of America, and I've had the same bank of bank of America account since I was. It was my first bank account when I was like 15.
- [74:21]
Ramit Sethi
This is a good time to start a fresh start.
- [74:24]
Serena
Yeah. And so I just want to make sure we are making the smartest decision with where we end up.
- [74:30]
Ramit Sethi
It's working fine. And honestly, you two are not married yet. So if you came to me and asked, I would say no. Don't put it together until you get married. But I do think after you get married, there's a couple of reasons I would encourage you to combine your money. One, simplicity. It's going to make things a lot simple if the two of you as a unit don't have to be venmoing back and forth and this and that. Just simple. But two, there's actually good research showing that couples who combine their finances actually feel more satisfied. And in my own experience with my wife, when we combined our finances almost immediately overnight, it was. We are teammates. It's not his money and her money, it's our money. In your case, you know, you probably want to have some conversations about premarital debt, things like that. Are you all signing a prenup or no?
- [75:22]
Nate
That's the plan. We haven't really looked into it.
- [75:25]
Serena
We're both, like, very open to it, you know.
- [75:28]
Ramit Sethi
Good Can I make a suggestion? I think it makes a lot of sense, particularly with all this premarital debt and, you know, maybe there's some family stuff. You should do it now and not wait because it takes months. And you really don't want to be talking about this right up before the wedding. So I would highly recommend you get it, get into it now, have your lawyers, et cetera, et cetera. It will be good. It'll be fairly straightforward. I love the approach you both are taking. Yeah. We have some stuff to talk about. Let's get a prenup. Fantastic.
- [75:57]
Serena
My parents, to this day, they've been married for over 30 years and I am like 99% sure that they do not have combined finances because.
- [76:06]
Ramit Sethi
Whoa.
- [76:07]
Serena
Yeah.
- [76:08]
Ramit Sethi
Which do you ever ask them?
- [76:10]
Serena
I've not asked them because, as I mentioned in the last episode, I feel like a lot of my own trauma and how I viewed money, especially, you know, in a couple or familial setting, was with what I was raised, I would be down to ask, why don't you?
- [76:30]
Ramit Sethi
But I think right now, like, what if you did? What if you're just like, hey, mom, or hey, dad, do you have combined finances? What do you think they would say?
- [76:38]
Serena
They would say no.
- [76:39]
Nate
Would say, why are you texting me this?
- [76:41]
Serena
I'm like 99% sure because, like, I still see them, like, splitting grocery bills. Like, they keep, like, receipts and they. They still like to, I think, even things up, which is not the life I want for me, you know, I.
- [76:57]
Ramit Sethi
Ask you, like, what. What does that make you feel when you see your parents doing that at. At this age?
- [77:05]
Serena
It seems like transactional, honestly, like, it seems like an unnecessary chore to sort of deal with.
- [77:14]
Ramit Sethi
What else?
- [77:15]
Serena
Like, I don't want to be at that age. And my parents love each other, they're obsessed with each other, but I also, like, sort of don't see the point in it. You know, they've been, like, married for as long as I've been alive. You know, my sister and I moved out almost a decade ago, you know, when we went to college or. No, over a decade ago, you know, so they've been empty nesters for so long at this point that I sort of just am like, does this really, like, it's like that thing where it's like, if you weave in and out of traffic, it's kind of like you end up getting to the destination at the same ish time as someone that just, like, stayed in the, like, lane that they were in. So I sort of am like, you're nickel and diming each other. And for what?
- [78:04]
Ramit Sethi
Isn't so much of how we treat money that way. It's. We're simply repeating our own behavior for many years, far beyond what even makes sense. Often that behavior came from our parents in a time that doesn't make any more sense for us anymore, and it's not getting us what we want. Like, I love the way you describe it. Feels transactional. I agree. And in some parts of life, sure, we need to be transactional. If I'm doing a business deal, I need to have records, et cetera. If I'm buying graham crackers for my wife, I don't know why I came up with that example. I haven't bought Graham crackers in 25. But if I'm buying something, those are good. Like, yeah. What? What? It doesn't feel like a team. And I want everybody to hear feelings matter in money. Money isn't just about dollars and cents. It's about how we feel. It brings us together or it splits us apart. So I. I love your observation about that also, Serena. I love that you're creating your own path for yourself. Your parents love each other. They have their own way of doing things. That's okay. That's their life. That's okay. But for you and for you and Nate, this new family, you can choose how the two of you want to relate to money. Very cool.
- [79:21]
Serena
Thank you.
- [79:23]
Ramit Sethi
All right, the wedding is budgeted. How much? Are you over budget already?
- [79:30]
Nate
Yes.
- [79:31]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. Like, how much do you think it will end up being? Let's just pretend that budget. The original budget was $100 for the wedding. How much do you think it's going to end up costing?
- [79:45]
Nate
It's going to be.
- [79:47]
Serena
I think we're like. Realistically, we have a spreadsheet that kind of our current costs. I think we're at, like, 45.
- [79:55]
Nate
145.
- [79:56]
Ramit Sethi
45, 4.
- [79:59]
Nate
5.
- [80:00]
Serena
No, we're at $45,000.
- [80:02]
Ramit Sethi
Oh, okay. What's the budget?
- [80:04]
Serena
I think we started out at 35.
- [80:08]
Ramit Sethi
Okay.
- [80:08]
Nate
But that's basically the venue. That was basically the venue.
- [80:11]
Ramit Sethi
Oh.
- [80:12]
Serena
And then I think we loftily were hoping to, like, keep it under 40, but then we sort of have, like, been like, it's not going to happen. Yeah, it's fine.
- [80:20]
Nate
Realistically, we wanted 40.
- [80:22]
Serena
Realistically. And, like, I would love for photographers to not be, like, $6,000. But again, I'm also like. Like I said, it is one of the biggest components that we are prioritizing financially. And I'm also of the mind, where it's like, as someone that has, like, been freelance, like, I understand, like, the gig economy, like, from having lived it in New York. I'm never going to be, like, the kind of person to tell someone what their work is worth.
- [80:51]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah.
- [80:51]
Serena
You know, and again, it's sort of like with the rest of, like, the numbers in our csp, where I'm sort of not sweating it right now. I'm not worried about being able to afford it, like, in a couple months time.
- [81:06]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, great. Can I ask you, when you got on the calls with the photographers, did they do that thing where they were like, what's your love story today?
- [81:15]
Serena
The first one did, and we ended up. We ended up not going with her, even though she was really nice. But, yeah, they did. They did hit us with that and that question.
- [81:27]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, hold on. Have I told you about.
- [81:29]
Nate
I'm. I'm very triggered right now. I just want you.
- [81:31]
Serena
Nate was like. Nate was like, what is going on?
- [81:34]
Ramit Sethi
No, me too. Nate. Okay, let me tell you what. Forget this podcast. Let me tell everybody. I have a few things to tell America. Okay, listen, when we sat down to plan our wedding, I told my wife, I said, listen, I'm going to build a project management model. You're not going to be able to understand the complexity of it. Just enjoy. Just enjoy. And she goes, what the hell are you talking about? I was like, sit back and watch. I freaking took my laptop, put my headphones on, Smoke started coming out of the screen. I built this freaking model for us to plan all this stuff. And then we get on calls. I set up all these calls with all these photographers. I was like, I'll take the call. She's on the call, but I'm driving it.
- [82:11]
Serena
Yeah.
- [82:11]
Ramit Sethi
Like, the first thing all these photographers say. I guess they attended the same class.
- [82:16]
Serena
Yeah.
- [82:17]
Ramit Sethi
What's your love story?
- [82:19]
Serena
And I was like, he proposed?
- [82:21]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. I'm like, you got 28 minutes left. Are you sure you want to ask that question? And it's so. They already. The energy was so weird, right? And my answer was like, oh, we met in New York, and it was great, and she's beautiful and so cool and like. Anyway, let's talk about your photography. It was weird. They didn't like it. I was like, these people don't know how to run a meeting. But then one day I was sick and I said, babe, can you, like, take the lead on this, because I can't even talk. She goes, yeah, that was the best photographer meeting of all. It was like they were Connected. They were, like, feeling each other. And I realized something. In the financial industry, there's a big complaint that a lot of financial advisors only talk to the men. Sometimes they don't even look at the wives. They only talk to the men. It's very sexist. Hey, guess what? Wedding photography industry of America. This is a sexist industry that only talks to the women. I wanted to participate. I wanted to drive it, but nobody would talk to me correctly. Nobody wanted to pay attention until my wife, very talented, came along and locked the deal down.
- [83:27]
Nate
What's the complimentary system there?
- [83:29]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, I guess it is. I guess we really do need teammates in this process because we. You know, when the guys try to speak up, we get rebuffed. Okay, so they asked you that terrible question. What's your love story? God, stop asking that every single time.
- [83:46]
Nate
Like a little skipper up my spine, dude.
- [83:49]
Serena
Yeah.
- [83:50]
Ramit Sethi
Yes. This needs to be talked about and investigated more. Oh, okay. Here's what I want to talk about. Let's just look at the CSP again, because I want to compare it to the old csp. I got a few questions for you. Okay. This is the old csp, right? So first off, let's just point out a couple of things. It used to be negative 51,000 and negative 432,000. Now the net worth is negative 20,000 and negative 438. Wow, Serena, you paid off a lot of debt.
- [84:16]
Serena
Yeah.
- [84:17]
Ramit Sethi
Good job.
- [84:19]
Serena
I basically have been. I mean, I think this. The numbers pretty much reflect this, but, yeah, like, I think. I don't know if I was paying 900amonth originally, but this was something that. Like, in the previous csp. But, yeah, my student loan debt has been something I've been trying to chip away, like, good job, for a long time, and it's, like, my primary financial goal.
- [84:43]
Ramit Sethi
All right, everybody, just so everybody who's not watching on YouTube can understand, when we talked a couple of years ago, Serena had $81,300 of debt. Today, she has 68,600, which is extremely good. Good job. Keep it up. And let's remember, she makes 6,900 bucks a month. That's very impressive. In addition, her 401k used to be $19,900. Today, it's $43,000. Are you all ready to listen to me when I talk about the power of compound interest? Start investing. All right, let's keep going. Now, there is something that is a little peculiar to me. Hey, Serena, how come you're actually paying less in rent today? How is that Possible. Explain that to me.
- [85:35]
Serena
So we moved since we last talked to you, and our total, like, our net rent went down slightly, so I'm still paying more than Nate is. And it was a very easy. Yes. To do. So that's sort of. Yeah. Like, it went. I think we went from maybe like, 26 or 2700 to, like, 25, and then that decreased, basically. I just sort of like it reflected in my contribution.
- [86:03]
Ramit Sethi
Okay.
- [86:03]
Serena
Not Nate's. So Nate's still paying the same amount?
- [86:07]
Ramit Sethi
Well, Nate's paying about a hundred dollars more.
- [86:09]
Nate
It looks like we very much are lucky to be in this apartment. It's. It's owned by a friend of mine, so we're basically paying rent, but we've also been doing a lot of maintenance around the apartment, things like that. So we're not paying much in utilities currently. Actually, at the same time that we were moving, Serena was feeling a little bit more stressed about money. And so altogether, I said that I. I felt comfortable essentially paying a hundred more in rent, knowing that I wouldn't be necessarily putting that directly into utilities. It just kind of worked out that way.
- [86:51]
Serena
I think the first month that I was here, I might have paid a little bit more. And then, like, it's. It's kind of an ongoing conversation. You know, it's like, we're not. We're not married to these numbers. The way that I, like, strongly felt at the beginning of our last conversation, where it's like, if, you know, December or December, rent's coming up soon. Yeah. So it's like, if, you know, Nate is feeling like 1.1 is a lot, then honestly, I'm more than fine tacking that onto my contribution every month.
- [87:25]
Nate
Sorry. On top of that is that she has been paying down pretty aggressively student loans and things like that. And so from my end, I am looking this kind of longitudinally where I'm not paying down debts right now and she is. So that extra, you know, 100 bucks a month, whatever it is, actually does end up saving us a lot in the long term. But it just, you know, it's not in one account. It's in two separate accounts. So it has to, you know, be balanced from somewhere. So that's the overall thinking.
- [87:59]
Ramit Sethi
Let's look at the rest. What do you want to flag for me as changes from last time to today? I think we covered the net worth. Income is a little bit higher. Last time, your fixed costs were at 77% together. Now they're at 60% together. That's quite a drop, right?
- [88:18]
Serena
Yeah. For sure.
- [88:19]
Ramit Sethi
What happened?
- [88:20]
Serena
Rent went down a little bit. Gas went down a lot. A bit.
- [88:24]
Ramit Sethi
You used to pay 650 for your car. Now you're paying 450. Okay. What else?
- [88:28]
Serena
Yeah, car payments.
- [88:29]
Nate
Probably even a little lower than that, to be honest, too. This is all estimated.
- [88:34]
Serena
Nate, I don't think you're doing that $200 in debt payments anymore.
- [88:38]
Ramit Sethi
That's correct. He's not.
- [88:40]
Serena
Yeah.
- [88:41]
Ramit Sethi
Anything else? Let's look at utilities. We're at 160 now they're at zero.
- [88:47]
Nate
Which is nice if you can get it, but will never happen again.
- [88:50]
Serena
Yeah, we'll never happen again, but, yeah. Our landlord essentially is covering utilities for us as a favor.
- [88:59]
Ramit Sethi
What's the clothes that 160amonth on?
- [89:03]
Serena
I feel like that's, like, probably an average over, like, 12 months. Like, there'll be some months where, like, I'll buy, like, a couple things in one month. Well, one or two months where I don't buy anything literally as far as clothes go. So that's probably like, an average.
- [89:17]
Ramit Sethi
So many good things to notice here. Consider that Nate is still in his residency and that he's been able to pay anything back towards his debt. The fact that they have dropped their fixed costs from 77% to 60%, while Serena's 401k more than double doubled, is outstanding. I'm a little surprised to hear that Nate increased his contributions towards rent after our first conversation. But it was his decision. And Serena is contributing a larger overall percentage towards household costs, so that's up to them to make that decision. Let's watch as I remind them how they used to divide their household costs. All right, fine. I got a couple other things I wanted to show you. I want to get your reaction when you talked about how you split rent. Take a look.
- [90:09]
Serena
Oh, God. Well, it's 1260. Combined. I pay a little bit more than half.
- [90:16]
Nate
No, it's. It's 25.60 total.
- [90:20]
Serena
Damn it. I'm terrible at math. Yes, it's 2560. So I pay a little more than half just because I make more. Nate pays 1200 to my 36. 1360.
- [90:32]
Ramit Sethi
How'd you come up with those numbers? I know this was a juicy conversation. Don't lie to me. Oh, yeah.
- [90:39]
Nate
Oh, yeah. It was a negotiation.
- [90:41]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, tell me. I gotta hear this.
- [90:43]
Nate
So, rent prices, as well as everything in the last year have skyrocketed where we lived. So last year, we were paying the same. We were both paying about a thousand dollars each per month. And this year, our rent went up almost 30%. And so I could not really afford to split the rent at all. And so, on the other hand, Serena really wanted to stay in the area that we're in. She really liked the area. I mean, I love the area too, don't get me wrong. But as opposed to moving elsewhere where there would have been slightly cheaper rent, but, you know, maybe not that substantial. So she wanted to stay in the area, and the rent was too much for me to afford. So basically, it took a long time of me saying, I can't afford this. Can we balance this a little bit in a direction based on what we make?
- [91:52]
Ramit Sethi
Let me make sure I understand. So you're. You're each paying a thousand dollars. Your rent went up. That made it very difficult for you, Nate, to afford it. Serena, you wanted to stay in this particular area. So you had a back and forth, and you concluded with, serena, you're paying a little bit more, like $160 more per month for this apartment. Yeah. Okay. All right. What do you both think about how you are splitting your rent?
- [92:21]
Serena
At first, I was not thrilled at the prospect of spending more when we're both splitting the apartment.
- [92:32]
Ramit Sethi
What do you notice as you watch that? Again.
- [92:37]
Serena
It seems like there. It's like, you can tell it's a point of tension between us, I think, and it's something that. I kind of get the. The impression that it's something that, you know, Nate was still struggling with, and I was just, like, really holding firm to, like. I feel like I was just really stubborn.
- [93:02]
Ramit Sethi
Nate, what do you notice?
- [93:04]
Nate
So I kind of am remembering some of those conversations that we had. And, yeah, it was very much the word. The word negotiation was absolutely there. It. You know, with front of mind, and it's a different. It's a different mindset than we approach things now.
- [93:28]
Serena
We've really tried two different people.
- [93:31]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, Nate, it's different. In what way? What would the conversation be like now rather than in the past when it was a negotiation?
- [93:40]
Nate
I mean, for lack of a better term, it would start from, basically, here's how I'm feeling this month financially, and this is stressing me out. And, like, help more from the point of kind of mutual support and trying to make each other feel comfortable in our own lives and just, okay, you're stressed out this month. I get it. And realistically, if you Pay, you know, $50 less a month in rent this month, you're going to feel less stressed. You may not solve everything. You'll feel a little stressed out. It's not going to affect much. It'll even out next month because we're doing it in equal measure on both sides. It's both of us coming at the equation from a point of view where we need these things to feel financially solvent, even if that's not necessarily a rational thing. But it's something where we can communicate about our underlying emotions on a subject and bring that into how he talked about a subject.
- [94:53]
Ramit Sethi
One of the things I noticed in the prior conversation, Nate, is that you didn't often advocate for yourself, and there were times where you had mentioned you're really busy and you come home from work and you. You didn't have the mental bandwidth for it. But I also think they're just that it was probably deeper than time, although I know time is real. Do you find that you advocate more for yourself the same or less when it comes to money now?
- [95:25]
Nate
I think initially I advocated more for myself, though I also think that has to do with growing professionally and personally and things like that. So I think some of that was sort of part and parcel kind of included in to the big picture. But after a while, I felt like I didn't necessarily have to advocate for myself. There weren't a lot of points where I was feeling as if my needs were being unheeded or ignored or cast aside. And so once we sort of got into a habit, a rhythm of actually paying attention to each other's needs to kind of think actively about each other made it so that wasn't a necessary thing.
- [96:18]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, Serena, what do you think?
- [96:19]
Serena
Hearing that, it makes me really happy, honestly, to hear that he feels as though he doesn't need to advocate as much. It really, truly means a lot to me because again, looking back at the previous conversation a few years back, I don't like what I'm seeing from myself. And I agree that, you know, it's taken, like, it took work again, was a lot of rewiring. How I moved about in the relationship, how I viewed money in this relationship. And I think, like, I'm proud of us. I'm proud of our progress. I want Nate to feel as though he doesn't have to, like, always speak up and that rather, like, I am paying attention and like, making sure that, you know, he's good and that he's not stressed. If I'm picking up on something, you know, I can then proactively sort of be like, okay, let me offer to, you know, cover this, you know, week grocery, this. Weeks of groceries or something. And it's again, something that, you know, I wasn't dialed into before, but something I'm really trying to do going forward.
- [97:35]
Ramit Sethi
Cool.
- [97:36]
Nate
And I actually want to slightly change my answer, just briefly. I think maybe I am advocating for myself more, but I think also how that advocating for myself looks has changed where I can just say something like communicate a need. And it's not where I feel like I even am advocating for myself. Even if I'm expressing something that I want or need, it's doesn't feel like it because the understanding that it's not coming from an adversarial point of view and that how we're both approaching these situations is important. And so it doesn't necessarily feel like advocacy or advocating for myself per se, but that has more to do just with how we're holding the conversations that we hold on a day to day basis.
- [98:27]
Ramit Sethi
I don't think that it should be adversarial. I think that even if the two of you have different priorities for money, you can most of the time come up with a solution that works for both of you. And sometimes it's okay if you don't agree. Maybe we're in semantics here, but when I think about advocating for myself and my wife advocating for herself in general, I think it's a good thing. I don't find it to be adversarial. I also don't associate it with negotiating, which becomes very tiresome in a relationship. That's not what I'm talking about. Advocating for yourself is often like, what is it that you need? What is it that you want? Maybe you need some time alone because it was a crazy week at work and you just need to be alone on Saturday. Or maybe it is, I need a hug when you get home. Or like, maybe I need for us to eat out once a week because I do not want to cook. And the reason I asked Nate and the reason I would actually encourage you to think about advocating as a positive thing. Every individual in a relationship needs things and they change, and that's okay. In particular, I talk to a lot of people. I talk to a lot of men and women who lose themselves in their relationship because they put the other person first. They're always kind of dancing around their partner's needs. And they may have a lot of money, but they don't even know what they like anymore. No hobbies, no nothing. It's like, I don't want that for either of you. And I just want to encourage you to both continue to stay grounded in what you want. It will actually make your relationship better. I've Learned that myself. My wife has helped me advocate for myself, and I think that that's just a very powerful skill. I'm curious, why did you come back to speak to me? I'm thrilled you are here, I really am. But why did you want to come back?
- [100:22]
Serena
This is fun. I, like, I learned a lot in the first chat that we had. I think now is a good time also for us to be having some more of these conversations. When we chatted last, like, a lot of the numbers and goals that we had were kind of still in the hypothetical. Now they feel a lot closer and tangible and, you know, we're making this big step and I think just, you know, want to like, also continue just like kind of like doing the work for a relationship, you know, I think it's clear what a big difference, you know, having these like, really frank, candid, vulnerable conversations about money. You know, it changed so much for us in just like our day to day, big picture and day to day, honestly. And like, I didn't realize I had paid off as much of my student loan debt and, you know, doubled my 401k. I literally, again, like, I. I know I should like, really keep an eye on these things, but like, I'm sorry, I don't. I am like, you know, I just, I don't. And so it's also nice to celebrate the wins for both of us, you know, it's a good feeling.
- [101:42]
Ramit Sethi
I love that. Nate, how about you?
- [101:47]
Nate
Absolutely. Just with things sort of on the horizon, there's granular day to day, small number of addition, subtraction problems, but it's just become increasingly important to not lose sight of, you know, keeping your view pointed forward. And as you know, I come to the end of this sort of impoverished, relatively and very new. A lot of debt that ended that kind of chapter. Yeah, things are going to start changing and I just place a lot of importance on making sure I'm good, we're good as those changes happen, because you don't always know exactly what that's going to look like until you're in the situation or until something's happened.
- [102:48]
Serena
I really want to not make the mistakes that I saw growing up. That is something that is really important to me, you know, and like also coming from someone that, like, I still have a lot of questions about finances and those like, big, big decisions. And I don't want to be making these sort of like, mindlessly and not realizing if there's money left on the table or, you know, if there's like flexibility that I Didn't know of that I could be using to, you know, make our lives, like, richer. You know, it's like, I. I wanna. I didn't know I had as much, like, money to spend on dinners or treating Nate until I had this conversation. So things like that are also really helpful. And we just love talking to you.
- [103:43]
Ramit Sethi
Oh, I love it, too. I. I rarely meet. I mean, first of all, you. You guys are great. Just. It's fun to talk to you. I love. I love the things you tell me, and I love how honest you both are. That's one of the things that just, like, stands out to me every time I talk to you. Honestly, to see the journey you took from where you came the first time, the fact that you were. I know our team reached out to you, like, hey, you know, just want to let you know what's up. The comments. And I remember your comment back was like, yeah, yeah, you know, we don't mind. It's okay. And I thought that was so cool. You were our first video podcast, and it was a whole new thing we did, and it was so cool. Watching you both and then seeing where you came in two years is quite amazing. The thing that I especially love is that you both talk about, quote, doing the work, and it's clear that you have put in a lot of work. You've mentioned the therapist. You talk about money. You've rediscovered a way of interacting. When I think about my own relationship, I think, you know, when you get married and you're together for years, you realize that there are certain things you look for in a partner that maybe you didn't think about when you were dating. And definitely for me, what. The ability for someone to take feedback is important and to develop themselves, because life is going to change. It's going to throw lots of stuff our way. We got to be able to take it, accept it, make changes. And I feel like the two of you are a perfect example of doing that. So I'm really impressed. I'm so proud of you. Yeah, it's awesome to see. I love having these videos of the older, the younger you, and then we can just see it and look how far you've come. It's such a celebration. Do you have any questions that I can answer for you? I just want to make sure if you do that I have a chance to answer them for you.
- [105:38]
Serena
I had a question about savings accounts.
- [105:41]
Ramit Sethi
Okay, go ahead.
- [105:42]
Serena
So I don't know much about savings accounts. Like I mentioned, I'm sort of. I still have the same checking account and savings account from when I was a teenager. I sort of am wondering if there's a way for when I'm able to build back my savings and invest more. Like, should I be looking for, like, different things in a savings account? Because right now I think I get literally like 2 cents.
- [106:07]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah.
- [106:07]
Serena
Which. Thank you, bank of America so much. And I'll tell you.
- [106:12]
Ramit Sethi
So, like, your account, your account structure is a pretty simple one. This isn't complicated at all. You can open them up. It's quite easy. You can do it online and you can even transfer money from one account to another. All online.
- [106:23]
Serena
Okay.
- [106:24]
Ramit Sethi
There are lots of great savings accounts. Ally bank has a great one. Capital One has a great one. They're all free. They all have high interest compared to what you're getting, like roughly four, four and a half percent, approximately. There's several others. You can find them if you just search for my name. Savings account. And those are great. One of the cool things you can do with Capital One and a couple of other accounts is you can open up multiple savings accounts or multiple sub savings accounts. So you can have one for wedding, down payment, emergency fund. You can even name them. So in chapter nine of my book, I talk about how to name them and how many you want to have. Like five or fewer. And that would be super cool. So that's what I would do. Checking account. I would. I would get out of bank of America. I. I personally like Schwab. I think they're great. They have a lot of awesome things you can do. And if you travel, you don't have to worry about ATM withdrawal fees. You can take it out as 7, 11 or internationally. So lots of stuff you can do there. Again, those all connect with each other. Money transfers.
- [107:31]
Serena
Yeah.
- [107:31]
Ramit Sethi
What I might consider is for the two of you, when the time is right, to kind of take some time. You don't have to rush it, but kind of plan out. Hey, we're gonna get married. We're probably gonna combine accounts. Well, let's go through the book and let's read it and see what. What's it gonna. What's gonna make sense for us. We probably don't wanna commingle certain things because we're gonna sign a prenup. But day to day, the amount that we're each making, probably it makes sense to go into the same joint checking account and then from there to go to various different places.
- [108:06]
Serena
Yeah. I think, like, the overarching concern that I have is, like, once I have, you know, kind of built up my savings, like I want that money to still be working for me in some small way, because right now it's just not.
- [108:21]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah, it'll. It'll. It'll make like 4% as of right now. It'll change over time, but sure, it should be earning a little bit more. I think, more importantly, you know, you don't make much on interest in savings, but it is good to have the right accounts so you don't have to think about it. Totally cool, Nate.
- [108:41]
Nate
So I recently for interview, just had to fly all over the country, stay in hotels, and put it on my card. And now I'm trying to put that over on, like, a 0% APR for 18 months card. And my credit score is decent, and I'm still getting reject it because I have $460,000 of debt. Yeah, I'm kind of a little bit at a. At a loss of how to get around that right now because. Yeah, I mean, I'm just racking up interest at this point as opposed to, you know, balancing a. Or transferring a balance and actually saving money. But obviously, you know, it's difficult. Yeah.
- [109:27]
Ramit Sethi
I have a couple of suggestions. This is where I think that stepping in as a team can be really helpful. So I'm looking here first, Nate. I'm looking at your csp, and I'm looking for some amount of liquid savings that would make this. Okay. How much do you have on that credit card?
- [109:44]
Nate
Four thousand something.
- [109:46]
Ramit Sethi
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, right off the bat, you only have a thousand dollars in savings. So even if you took all of it out, you don't even have enough to pay for that trip. So then I. I kind of come down here and I look and I go, okay, wait a second. Your fixed costs, Nate, are 72%. And then, Serena, if you see yours are 53%. So it's, you know, considerable difference. Nate, you are saving, like, close. You're saving 10 bucks a month, and you're investing, you know, a little bit, like 100 bucks a month. So it's tough. There's not like there's a pot of cash sitting around. So here are your options, Nate. You could one, put it on whatever credit card you have if you need. You could. I guess you could open up an easier credit card. One that they might give you a secured credit card where you could put $1,000 down and slowly. But it. It won't be zero percent interest. You'll pay. Alternatively, the two of you could have a conversation, and I think this would be one where I might say, Nate, I might advocate for Myself and say, hey, here's the situation. Like, I have to pay this. I don't have a pot of money right now to draw from. It would be really helpful if you could help me. Here's what. Specifically, what I would be looking for. And of course, I know, Nate, that you would take money from your own situation and put it towards it as much as you could. But, hey, if you have some money, it would be very helpful for me because otherwise, I'm about to pay 27% interest on this trip. The two of you could talk about it, and maybe Serena says, yes, I can help with all of it. I can pay all of it. That would be the furthest end of the spectrum. I'll pay it all. Just send me the bill. Next she might say, I could loan you the money. That would be up to you. Maybe she would say, I can help you with a thousand. That's what I'm able to do. And you would say, thank you so much. That means a lot. I love you, and I will handle the rest on my own. But you can see that you start to talk about, here's the situation. Here's what I'm asking for, and then Serena has the right to decide how she wants to do it herself. How do you all feel that that conversation would. Would it go in a constructive way?
- [112:01]
Serena
Yeah, I mean, like, I think now the biggest thing is, like, everything has options. Everything is a conversation. And also, just again, like, I didn't see the emotion or, like, I guess, emotional impact or benefit that money can bring. Again, like, I came at it from as transactional as one can get. I feel like now it's like we. We have options. It feels good, and it feels, like, empowering for us to know that we can figure it out, whatever. Whatever we end up settling on. And also great to know that, like, I can help some. Like, I can help him. Like, that's a really. That's like a very. As, like, a partner, you know, it's like, that's a great feeling to know that, you know, you. You're there for someone. And Nate knows I have his back.
- [112:53]
Ramit Sethi
These are the times. These are the times. Times like this where, yeah, it's not that Nate is spending on some crazy expense. It's like, he had to do it for work, and he doesn't have the financial means for. For reasons that are based on where he is in his career. But it's going to change. And these are the times where a partner can be like, let me help.
- [113:10]
Serena
Yeah.
- [113:11]
Ramit Sethi
And, wow, it goes a Long way. People really remember those moments. Anything else I can answer for you?
- [113:18]
Serena
Is there anything you wish that you knew before you got married or any just like financial advice you would give to like a couple in our, in our shoes? Like, we haven't bought a home. We want to, you know, we, we want to pay off student debt, which is, that's like another big financial goal. But yeah, like, is there anything that you don't see people talking about that is actually like a very solid game changing piece of advice?
- [113:48]
Ramit Sethi
The, the best thing for you, I would give you personalized feedback for your exact situation, which is I'm so glad that you have worked on the fundamentals of money and your relationship over the last two years because as Nate puts it, things are about to change. And the amount that you made in a year is going to be coming into your accounts in about two months, maybe three. And that really changes everything. And I want, just like you've gone through the process of planning your wedding and enjoying it, that's actually the same thing you get to do and it's even better. Hey, our finances are about to change in a massive way. What does it mean for us? Of course we're going to pay our debt off. Yes. We're going to put the majority of the extra money towards that. Yes. But what does it mean for us and dream and really say, you know, I, for me, it's important that we go out to dinner once a week. Once a month I want to go to that place. And then once a quarter I want to go to that awesome place. I want to see our family XYZ times a year. And you get to have these dreams and because of the hard work and the partnership two of you have put in, get to live it. Don't skip that part. That's actually the best part.
- [115:12]
Serena
I'm excited.
- [115:13]
Nate
Appreciate that.
- [115:14]
Serena
Plan all that. And I'm excited to plan it with him specifically.
- [115:20]
Ramit Sethi
Yes. The two of you. I love that. I feel so lucky. You are the first video podcast I did and you are the first follow up that I've gotten to do and I truly did not expect to hear what I heard today. I am so glad that I did. Last question for you. What has been the most surprising part of this experience of talking to me and learning about money on money for couples?
- [115:52]
Serena
When I talked about money, it was never empowering. It was always a sense of stress or shame. And now, you know, I'm not like, I, I'm. I can afford to pay off my student loan, pay rent, get groceries and be, you know, relatively comfortable. But even so, it's like, even with what I have, I'm able to make it in a work and understand how to make it work in a way that is, you know, having a positive impact on my life and Nate's. You know, I feel like I have a much better understanding of how to, like, use my money in order to actually, like, enrich our lives. Like, Nate and I aren't the sort of people that are just like, oh, like, we just feel like buying something for, like, no real reason. Like, I feel like I've learned how to be a lot more intentional with my spending. And it's a great feeling because, like, for a long time, I was sort of, like, just, like, going through life and not really thinking about spending. I'm not, like, understanding, you know, these things. And I'm just hoping I'm, like, going through life and hoping I don't get audited, basically. And now we have these goals, and I can see, like, tangibly, like, oh, like, yeah, like, I'm, like, making and achieving financial goals is a really empowering feeling, I think. And it's not something I thought it would like. I never thought I would say that sentence.
- [117:30]
Ramit Sethi
Amazing. Congratulations. That's awesome. Nate, how about you?
- [117:36]
Nate
The realization of conversations about money and conversations about relationship are built on the same structure of how to hold a productive and good conversation. If you can't talk about your boundaries in a relationship or whatever other issue, then there's no way you're going to be able to talk about your boundaries and finance. So all of those skills are completely, mutually, you know, intertwined. And a lot of us being better about talking about money has also bled over into us talking about other decisions, other plans, things in our relationship that once you have the tools and the structure to talk about important things, it applies to everything that's important, not just one thing, not just money. It does go beyond that, and it's been pretty critical in terms of, you know, sort of changing how we approach a lot of things in life.
- [118:49]
Serena
And if I can gasnade up for a second, he has put so much work in achieving his career goals, you know, from the beginning of our relationship. You know, like, I've sort of been in my career and growing in my career, whereas, you know, right out of college, whereas it is a, like, the slowest of slow burns. And Nate is so patient, and, you know, it is really. It makes me so proud to see him achieve this. Not just because it will affect our future family and myself, but I know this is something he has worked so hard for, and it's been a pleasure and honor to have a front row seat and to kind of, like, support us through this stage. Like, I. Even through all the ups and downs, you know, and there were many. Ramit has them on tape. You know, it's like, I can't wait to look back on this chapter of our lives and know, like, we did that work and, you know, got through it together. That's a really good feeling.
- [119:57]
Ramit Sethi
Great. Well, I'm super happy to get a chance to catch up with you. It's great to see you. You both look great. The. The. The way that you communicate is, like, truly at a different level, and I'm really proud of both of you. Congratulations. I want to thank Nate and Serena for speaking with me. Our first conversation was one of my favorite episodes, and this one makes me even happier. What I noticed is they took this seriously. Money went from a source of stress and frustration, something that was driving them apart through resentment, to something that could actually bring them together. That is exactly why I wrote my new book, Money for Couples. And that is what I want for you. Money should not be something that divides you. Money should be something that brings you together. For a lot of couples, when they see money, they see confusion, overwhelm, and a confusing spreadsheet with a bunch of decimal places. I see convenience. I see being able to take a date night once a month. I see being able to take a family trip to Disneyland. And if you use the techniques in my new book, you will know exactly what to say, when to to say it, even how to say it so that you can begin living your rich life together.