190. “Is our relationship going to end on air?”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Is our relationship going to end on air?" (Episode 190)

Release Date: January 7, 2025
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Justin and Maggie

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Introduction

In Episode 190 of Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi, host Ramit Sethi delves deep into the financial dynamics of relationships by engaging in a candid conversation with Justin (38) and Maggie (34). This episode, titled “Is our relationship going to end on air?”, explores how differing money mindsets and financial management styles can strain a couple's relationship.

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Background of the Couple

Justin and Maggie have been dating for several years and are freelancers who have ventured into a joint YouTube channel focused on motorcycles. Despite their collective income, their approach to finances has created significant tension:

• Justin:

  • Net Worth: -$63,000
  • Income: $100,000 to $250,000 annually
  • Debt: $92,000
  • Spending Habits: Described as irresponsible; enjoys travel and spontaneous purchases.

• Maggie:

  • Net Worth: $45,000
  • Income: Approximately $120,000 annually
  • Debt: $15,000
  • Spending Habits: Responsible saver; prioritizes stability and long-term financial goals.

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Current Financial Situation

The couple maintains separate finances, which has led to misunderstandings and resentment:

• Assets & Investments:

  • Maggie has $1,000 in investments and $16,000 saved.
  • Justin has $6,700 in investments and $1,000 saved.

• Debts:

  • Maggie holds $15,000 in debt.
  • Justin carries a substantial $92,000 debt, including a $51,000 business loan and a $19,000 credit card balance.

Their combined annual income stands at $267,000, but the disparity in debt and financial management has created friction.

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Key Discussions and Issues

1. Communication Breakdown:

   • Ramit (00:00): Opens the discussion with the couple, highlighting their initial avoidance and superficial handling of financial conversations.
   • Maggie (04:54): Admits money has been a "weird thing" in their relationship, leading to a lack of cohesive financial planning.

2. Debt Management:

   • Justin (02:34): Reveals the significant debt imbalance and questions Maggie’s reluctance to merge finances.
   • Maggie (07:04): Expresses frustration over Justin’s inconsistent financial management, particularly his spending on non-essentials like sunglasses.

3. Trust Issues:

   • Maggie (08:22): Confronts Justin about feeling like a second priority due to his financial struggles.
   • Justin (08:27): Acknowledges not fully understanding Maggie’s expectations regarding financial support.

4. Future Planning and Vision:

   • Maggie (16:05): Shares her dream of building a mini farm in Utah and feeling excluded from these long-term plans.
   • Justin (22:07): Describes his shift from a nomadic lifestyle to prioritizing savings and planning for future financial stability.

5. Emotional Dynamics:

   • Ramit (58:54): Highlights the mutual feelings of distrust and the need for honest, direct communication to rebuild trust.

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Notable Quotes

• Ramit Sethi (00:00): "Big news."
• Justin (00:38): "Even if one of you is a spender and one of you is a saver..."
• Maggie (07:04): "I just really didn't feel like there was a we or us. I was like, where do I fit in on this?"
• Ramit Sethi (26:34): "Both of them pride themselves on their extreme independence."
• Justin (33:01): "I'm not gonna get involved. It's a lot of extreme independence."

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Solutions and Strategies Proposed

1. Honest Conversations:

   • Ramit (55:08): Encourages directness in communication, suggesting structured dialogues where each partner clearly states their needs and fears.

2. Financial Accountability:

   • Maggie (57:14): Commits to taking responsibility for her financial missteps by canceling unnecessary subscriptions and avoiding new debts.
   • Justin (57:47): Agrees to develop a clear plan to manage and reduce his debt, emphasizing the importance of consistent financial habits.

3. Combined Financial Planning:

   • Ramit (80:05): Advocates for simplifying their financial arrangements by potentially combining finances to operate as a unified team.
   • Maggie (85:03): Highlights the need for trust and collaborative planning to achieve shared financial goals.

4. Setting Financial Goals:

   • Ramit (83:01): Suggests setting clear, achievable financial targets such as paying off debt aggressively and automating savings and investments.

5. Regular Financial Check-ins:

   • Maggie (85:17): Introduces the concept of "board meetings" to regularly discuss and monitor their financial status and future plans.

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Conclusions and Takeaways

By the end of the episode, Justin and Maggie begin to bridge the communication gap, acknowledging their individual responsibilities and expressing a willingness to work together towards financial stability. They realize the importance of:

• Building Trust: Recognizing how financial mismanagement can erode trust and taking steps to rebuild it through transparency and accountability.
• Collaborative Planning: Understanding the necessity of aligning financial goals and strategies to operate as a cohesive unit.
• Consistent Financial Practices: Emphasizing the need for automated savings, disciplined spending, and regular financial reviews to prevent future conflicts.

Maggie (76:19): "It was good as acknowledgment, but I've been doing something."

Ramit Sethi (61:44): "Acknowledge how you feel is the most honest thing you can do."

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Final Thoughts

Ramit Sethi skillfully navigates the couple through their financial turmoil, emphasizing that money issues in relationships are not just about numbers but also about values, trust, and shared visions for the future. Through guided conversations, Justin and Maggie take the first steps towards harmonizing their financial lives, demonstrating that with honest communication and mutual effort, couples can overcome significant financial challenges.

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Pre-order Ramit’s new book, Money For Couples, and gain access to word-for-word scripts and strategies to build a shared vision for your Rich Life together.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

Big news.

[Justin]

My new book, Money for Couples is officially out. Please go to iwt.com moneyforcouples and get a copy right now. It really helps, especially today and tomorrow. Now, I wrote this book so that you and your partner can get on the same page with money, even if one of you is a spender and one of you is a saver, Even if you worry about money and you're not sure how to get your partner to want to be a team player with you, I give you word for word scripts, and I help you create your rich life vision together. Get this book right now. It's brand [e-mail] money for couples on today's episode.

[Maggie]

Is this going to be the end of my relationship on air?

[Justin]

Meet Justin and Maggie.

[Unknown]

We're freelancers. We're really good at making money, not necessarily planning on how to spend it. I'm the responsible one right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

And who's he?

[Unknown]

Maybe the irresponsible one.

[Justin]

Justin is 38. Maggie's 34. They've been dating for a couple of years, and Maggie does not want to combine finances with Justin.

[Unknown]

I just want some similar priorities and some similar game plan.

[Justin]

Maggie spent her 20s traveling the world.

[Unknown]

I was traveling for six years out of a backpack and working from my laptop. My goal was to make good money.

[Justin]

And now she's focused on the future.

[Unknown]

I want to save a bunch of money, and that's the mindset I'm in.

[Justin]

Justin also loves to travel, and he wants a future with Maggie.

[Maggie]

I definitely put experiences and living life before anything else.

[Justin]

Now that Maggie is making life plans that might not include him, Justin feels her her.

[Maggie]

I just really didn't feel like there was a we or us. I was like, where do I fit in on this?

[Unknown]

I think it's safe to say that we're at a point where it's like, if it doesn't change, it's not going to last.

[Justin]

Now let's meet Justin and Maggie. I've got Justin and Maggie CSP in front of me getting ready for our conversation. Check out what I noticed.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's take a look.

[Justin]

Maggie and Justin. Maggie spent her 20s backpacking through different countries. She has big financial dreams. She wants stability. Justin grew up wealthy. He's run his own business, but never really paid attention. Money comes, money goes. They started an LLC together for their YouTube channel on motorcycles. Justin wants to combine finances and their lives. Maggie doesn't want to get caught up in the financial mess. On the flip side, he feels like he supported Maggie financially and she's not willing to reciprocate that. Trust is an issue. She doesn't trust that he'll get his financial life together.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, there's a lot going on here.

[Justin]

I'm looking now at their csp. Looks like they have not combined their finances. That's fine assets. Her net worth is 45,000. His net worth is negative 63,000. She has a thousand bucks invested. He has 6,7000. She has 16,000 saved. He has 1,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

And wow.

[Justin]

She has 15k of debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

He has 92k of debt.

[Justin]

All right, let's go to the income. They make a pretty healthy income. 120 for her, 100 to 250k for him.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a lot of income.

[Justin]

$267,000 a year. Let's keep going. I got to say, there's something fishy about these numbers. I wonder if there's some mixing of business in here. I've seen this before where sometimes numbers don't add up and it's usually one or both people are in a business and they're counting some of their business expenses and things like that. So maybe that's what's going on here. Let's keep going. 36% going towards guilt free spending, which is $7,444. I doubt that that number is true. I think it just kind of flowed down to the bottom. My guess is that they could probably put more towards debt and pay that off aggressively. My overall assessment, one, they make a lot of money. That part is good. Two, they have separate finances. That's okay. I'd like to understand more. Three, there's a bit of a disparity not just in their spending, but certainly in their debt levels and for the way they treat money and they treat each other are little clues showing up here on the csp, but it's really probably going to come out when I talk to them. So I'm very interested to speak to them and see what's going on here.

[Unknown]

We are going to be moving next year and the question is, what can we afford? We're freelancers. We don't know anything about your situation. Just kind of wanted to get on the same page.

[Ramit Sethi]

First of all, do you talk about money?

[Maggie]

No. Money's been a weird thing for me, but I was like, man, if I feel like I had somebody that I could tackle life with, like, this is her. But we just couldn't get there. It just didn't happen. But finally it was like, hey, I'm going to put us on public display and we're going to talk about all the things that most people never talk about.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you tried to talk about money in this relationship before?

[Maggie]

Kind of, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, how did it go?

[Unknown]

I set up a spreadsheet that I've been working off of last year, and I was like, what are your fixed costs a month? What are our goals? Hey, put your numbers in here. Look at mine.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you realize my question was, how did you talk about money? And your answer was, I created a spreadsheet.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Ramit Sethi]

Anybody find that a little odd?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, well, that's what we're here today for.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Talking about money, especially first few conversations, probably should not involve a spreadsheet. What was your reaction when you saw that spreadsheet, by the way?

[Maggie]

I was like, great, here we go. I already hate doing money, and I feel like I have an overwhelming situation in general. And then, you know, on top of that, it was just like, we never talked about really anything. Debt, goals.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you felt all these things overwhelm and there's complexity in your financial lives, what was your reaction with the spreadsheet? Did you fill it out?

[Maggie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Maggie]

For one month, and then it stopped.

[Ramit Sethi]

Now your finances are separate, correct?

[Maggie]

Kind of. We have a partnership with the YouTube channel.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so you have separate finances, but you have a joint venture, and you make money through that, but you also make money independently.

[Maggie]

Yes. Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I can see why it feels confusing, but it's quite common. The good news is there are solutions for this situation. All right, so you both live together. How do you pay the rent or mortgage?

[Unknown]

One of us manages the rent and everybody. Because we have three adults in our household. Justin currently is taking care of rent, so we send him rent, but I'm managing the bills. There was a period of time where I was managing the rent and Justin was managing the bills, and we weren't able to get a number.

[Maggie]

I wasn't every month being like, okay, it was $250 for all the things we have to split it. I just threw it on the credit card and stacked up a bunch of bills.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, why'd you do that?

[Maggie]

Honestly, it was just sort of a set it and forget it. And I screwed myself, honestly.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what's a time in the last six months where the two of you really disagreed about money?

[Maggie]

She doesn't like the way I spend my money on sunglasses.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's it. I don't think you guys flew across the country to talk about $100 sunglasses.

[Unknown]

I'm in the dark. I feel like, about his financial situation, but I can do simple math in my head sometimes, and I'm like, this is not adding up that you spent $400 on sunglasses this month. I think there's certain things where I'm just like, I don't spend money like that, and I'm really on top of my expenses.

[Maggie]

One thing that's been contentious and difficult, and it's a really complicated situation overall, is that our roommate is Maggie's best friend, and she had a brain tumor a few years ago and had it removed. But it's the type of thing that eventually will come back.

[Unknown]

It is coming back.

[Maggie]

It is coming back. And so she's going on medication now, but more or less all the disposable income or whatever Maggie's setting aside is going to taking care of her and her kids.

[Unknown]

She has two kids that live with us.

[Maggie]

Yeah. It's a tough situation to be in because I kind of feel like that's the priority, and I'm not necessarily in that bubble.

[Ramit Sethi]

Maggie's friend and her children are the financial priority for Maggie.

[Maggie]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

And you feel your maybe second priority.

[Maggie]

Or not a priority at all in that regard.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what is the financial resources that you're putting behind your friend? Are you her caretaker?

[Unknown]

Not right now. There's things where I'll plan trips with them and I'll take care of everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

And does your friend, does she earn money?

[Unknown]

Yes, she does. One of my goals for all of us is that this, financially. We're splitting a house between three adults. This is a chance for all of us to, like, catch up on some finance things. But we weren't necessarily on the same page with that as well, too.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why not?

[Unknown]

I mean, I had it as my goal.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you ever talk about that? Hey, it's going to be three of us splitting expenses, so this is a chance for us to pay off debt and get ahead.

[Maggie]

Honestly, her and Ashley talked way more about finances and getting ahead than Maggie and I did.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you ever talked about that?

[Maggie]

Maggie was trying to convince me why we should have another adult and two children living in her house. And as part of that, it should be because we get to save more money.

[Ramit Sethi]

And your reaction was?

[Maggie]

Sure.

[Ramit Sethi]

How would you characterize the dynamic of money in your household?

[Unknown]

I'm the responsible one right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And who's he?

[Unknown]

Maybe the irresponsible one by default.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What do you think about that?

[Maggie]

Pretty accurate.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay. That makes my job easier.

[Maggie]

There was a time, though, in the beginning of our relationship where it was very flipped, like I was paying all the bills and some you know, and you know, I helped out considerably when it came to finances.

[Ramit Sethi]

Were you making more?

[Maggie]

I was making a lot more.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're making more. So you were paying the majority of the bills. And when you say and more, what's that?

[Maggie]

So for the first year that we were together, Maggie was doing this influencer thing and I wanted to help her out. So I was like, how about I put you on payroll and you know, you can help me with some stuff. I need to redo my website and, you know, maybe you can help me come up with some strategy for business.

[Unknown]

Kept me afloat. And at the time he was making money, he was paying another full time employee and had an office. And I didn't know his situation and I think right off the bat, I haven't known exactly what his situation was. And that was where it started. And then a lot of that it felt like was getting held over my head and I was like, okay, we need to move away from this dynamic. I don't want that to be a part of our relationship. And I went and started finding work and found jobs and started holding my own. And then I was like, okay, cool. Like, I still didn't know what his situation was. I'm like, you should be in a much better place now that I'm not such a strain on it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you say that?

[Unknown]

No, not necessarily.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you not talk about this kind of stuff at all?

[Unknown]

We kind of talk about it. There was just a lot of like struggle with relationship stuff that we were working through. And to have money tied into it, like, I think that's also added to the maybe the aversion to talk about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who's aversion?

[Maggie]

Both of us. Finance is always a tricky thing. It can cause a lot of trouble in a relationship. It's sometimes subjective. I mean, whether I'm spending $200 on a pair of glasses, for me, that makes sense and that doesn't make sense for somebody else.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's interesting you say that with the sunglass example. I agree it might make sense for you. Your partner might think it doesn't make sense. But it seems to me that you both don't have a way of deciding if that's a good decision or not. How would you decide right now if buying 200 sunglasses is a good decision or not?

[Maggie]

I think that Maggie would feel much more confident in my Choice of spending $200 on sunglasses if she knew that I had my finances handled.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you?

[Maggie]

Absolutely not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Maggie]

I shouldn't have been buying $200 sunglasses.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's all right. So, Maggie, your concern, it's probably warranted, but when you express the concern, how is it received?

[Unknown]

It just doesn't come off right. I just know that there's been a bit of a blind eye turned to them, it feels like, because it was happening when we split bills last year, to the point where I was like, how about I manage that? Because it seems like it's a lot. Anytime rent was paid, we asked, what do we owe for bills? And he's like, I need to take a look at it, was the answer. And then it wouldn't get taken a look at. And I mean, there's a lot going on. No, we probably should have hounded him. But it got to the point where we hadn't paid anything in a couple months. And I was just. I did say, like, I know this is stacking up and we can't back pay, so let me manage that. And you just handle the rent part. Because it's a flat rate every month, we divide it three ways. We always know what it is. It's all the same.

[Ramit Sethi]

And is that where you are now?

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's where we're at now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any different opinion on what happened?

[Maggie]

They asked a couple times, and then what happened is later on when we started doing spreadsheets and looking at the bills, I was like, I've been paying for the bills the whole time and it's been going on my credit card and it's stacked up a couple thousand dollars worth of bills at this point. And then she was like, oh, well, we asked, you know, and you never gave us an answer. So we're not going to back pay you now, and you're going to have to take care of that. And then moving forward, we'll switch over. I'll take care of the utilities and then you can take the rent.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that what happened? You did not get the back pay?

[Maggie]

No, I did not get the back pay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that?

[Unknown]

It had just stacked up a lot like it was, to a point where it was like it hit a tipping point where it was like, I don't even know where we stand on this because he had been managing it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Justin, it sounds like you were probably not as forthcoming communicating about what's owed every single month. I agree. He's probably owed back pay. Right. Even though it might be difficult, you can't write a check all at once. I can understand that. Are you frustrated by the back pay still?

[Maggie]

It's kind of. It's kind of.

[Unknown]

How much is owed?

[Maggie]

That's a great question. Like, I need to go back and figure that out.

[Ramit Sethi]

You mentioned you're responsible in this dynamic and you. You called him irresponsible. What are we talking about?

[Unknown]

Just being aware. I wouldn't say, like, I'm on top of everything, but I definitely have a lot more awareness. And that's all it is. I'm setting aside my saving. I should be saving more, but I'm hitting what I set out to save every single month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that what you want from Justin? Yeah. Have you told him that?

[Maggie]

No.

[Unknown]

I don't want him to be not going to Starbucks when he wants to or not buying sunglasses he wants to. I just think he's been doing that without consciously making a plan to pay off the debt that he's got.

[Ramit Sethi]

What if he doesn't? Because some people are aware, but they choose to make different decisions than you might.

[Unknown]

It's not that he doesn't get to do those things. I don't want those things stripped away. I just want it to come after the okay, I put the chunk that I need to towards debt. I have a plan for it. Because there's things that we've discussed recently when I was like, eventually I want to build a mini farm and have an a frame house on a piece of property in southern Utah. He's like, well, where do I fit into that plan? I'm like, this is my plan because I don't know where you sit and I need to be met halfway to even think of a plan with you on this. It's my dream right now because I'm saving for it.

[Maggie]

She was like, I just don't trust you. And how can I put my name and our names together on anything?

[Ramit Sethi]

You said that.

[Unknown]

Different words, but kind of. I don't feel like I can trust that you've got things handled.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why didn't you trust him?

[Unknown]

Because he was. Seemed to be struggling quite a bit, and I just didn't know. I should have asked more.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is the goal that the two of you stay together for the long term?

[Maggie]

Yeah, hope so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And is the goal that you get married or no? No. No. Okay, wait. That was interesting. She says no. What do you say?

[Maggie]

There's a part of me that wants to get married. And we've had this conversation, and this is a step in the right direction of being able to be trusted enough for her to marry me one day.

[Ramit Sethi]

I guess what I'm trying to understand is what does your future together look like? Because maybe it involves marriage, maybe not. That's fine. But when I hear about Things like building a house in southern Utah. And then Justin, you very pointedly say, where do I fit in? And I hear this answer that is, well, this is my plan as part.

[Maggie]

Of this farm conversation. Honestly, it was pretty tough. I was pretty hurt because I just felt like she's like, I'm going off and you know, she had property for her best friend that she was including on this land and there wasn't any conversation of me even having a room there and definitely not being a part of helping build it. I just really didn't feel like there was a we or us or I was part of the conversation. And I brought it up. I was like, you know, where do I fit in on this? And she's like, well, you don't. I need to build something so I have some sort of passive income. And then she looked at me and said, what's yours? This is my dream. What's yours? And that was the kind of like, this is why I like this girl so much, you know, because it really did light a fire under my. Following her dream of building a farm in Utah doesn't need to be my dream, you know, and so I can go over here and start doing something else and, you know, and I have my own ways of potentially making passive income.

[Ramit Sethi]

Was that a satisfying answer to you?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it wasn't like, I'm going to go live on this farm and homestead for 10 years is not the plan. It was like, how do I pick a piece of land that's in a corridor to national parks and I could short term rental it and we can be traveling wherever we want and stuff like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

So it seems like the two of you have talked about it seems like you have a plan. What's the problem?

[Unknown]

I think the big one has been like making plans together.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. You both just spent five minutes telling me how you have concluded you're going to make separate plans and you don't need to be together. What am I missing?

[Justin]

A lot of double talk here.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that's okay.

[Justin]

This is common in relationships. This is what a third party can help us point out. These murky alleyways that we tend to get stuck in in our relationship and how to shine a light and find our way out of them. Did you notice that they both started the episode by using jokes to avoid uncomfortable conversations? Out of respect for my guests, I don't let them get away with that. My guests take a lot of time in preparation to see me. In this case, they flew across the country to be here. So I won't let them use the usual evasion techniques to get out of a substantive conversation, even if they are employing them unconsciously. That's why I'm going to occasionally bring them back on track, even if it feels a little uncomfortable. Now Maggie sees herself as responsible and Justin as irresponsible. Justin is resentful that Maggie won't reimburse him for those utility bills that he covered. They don't talk about money. She's making plans for building a farm in Utah without him. And they say the problem is making plans together More After a short break from our Sponsors the first time my nieces and nephews came to visit, my wife and I looked at each other and realized we have no food that kids like to eat in our house. I called my sisters. I'm like what do they eat? They're like are you stupid? They like pizza, they like chicken nuggets, they like all this stuff. I'm like disgusting. They eat that. They want the sugar laced cereal. Anyway, I bought it, they came over, they loved it, it was great. Then I sent them back home. I'm like good luck now. That was just one day. But if you are a parent looking for healthier food options, I would use Thrive Market, the sponsor of this week's episode. Thrive Market makes it simple to find trusted, family friendly brands without spending hours in the grocery store and they have great options for snacks, school lunches and so much more. You can filter on their website and shop based on what makes sense for your family. Low sugar, gluten free, organic, high protein. Just click and you will see. Plus Thrive Markets smart cart feature is pretty cool. When you create an account, they ask about your family's needs and they automatically build a cart full of cleaner versions of your favorite brands. You can tweak it before checking out, but it's an easy way to get started. If you're ready for a junk free start to 2025, head to thrive market.com/ramit and get 30% off your first order plus a free 60 gift.

[Ramit Sethi]

As part of my rich life I.

[Justin]

Have 10 money rules and one of those rules is I can spend guilt free on anything relating to my health. That means healthier foods, working with a personal trainer and buying books or courses on improving health and wellness. But it also means that I stay on top of regular health checkups and finding a good doctor in network is incredibly difficult. That's why if I were looking for.

[Ramit Sethi]

A new doctor or a specialist, I.

[Justin]

Would use the sponsor of this week's episode, zocdoc Zocdoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. Book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty including mental health, dental health, primary care, urgent care and more. And you can use the app filter for doctors who take your insurance and are located nearby. Appointments made through Zocdoc also happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. Sometimes they even offer same day appointments. If I needed to find a doctor today, this is what I would use. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments. Go to zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated Doctor today. That's z o c-o c.comit zocdoc.comit and now back to our conversation.

[Unknown]

I'm very much a like I'm not gonna get involved. It's a lot of extreme independence. But I'm like, I'm just gonna handle my stuff. And I think I haven't sat down and even thought about what I want for my partner. I want someone to meet me halfway. There's been some contention in the last year where I said something about helping my friend out. I was like, if she has to start chemo, like I can pay her way. I've saved up enough to cover her expenses for three months. And I got a weird reaction from him. He felt not prioritized and all this and I just didn't know where it was coming from. But now understanding he was really struggling financially, so that's where he was expecting a partner to maybe help a little bit more. But I didn't know that was the expectation. So we both haven't been able to know what the other person expects of each other or haven't openly talked about, I think what we want from our partners financially. And that's probably a big reason of why we're here too.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have anything that's going to force you to make a decision coming up? Because you could go like this for years.

[Unknown]

There's multiple things going on. So my friend is going to start treatment in January and the first three months is going to be the most toughest. So I'm wanting to stay and kind of like chill on the travel, all of that to kind of be closer. And then the lease is going to be up, but we're going to extend it month to month until the kids are done school, so it's not disrupting that. But then throughout that process, possibly Justin's going to move and start setting up the next place.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now, you live together, but you're going to move somewhere on your own, and what are you going to do there?

[Maggie]

Sleep, eat, work out.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else?

[Maggie]

Make money.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's going on right now? Like, I feel like you guys are really good at talking, but you're both avoiding talking about the reason that you're here. So do you guys want to get real with me? Why are we here?

[Maggie]

I'm not expecting you to pay my debt, but, like, there are couples who came together where one person was making $40,000 a year and the other made significantly more, but they both worked on it together, and it wasn't just about making a spreadsheet and helping her husband figure it out on his own. It was like, we're going to do this together. And very much so. For me, a lot of this has been like, I feel like one foot's out the door always. There's this, like, safety measure of, like, all right, if this relationship ship doesn't work, then I'm out. And then the other side of it, too, is, like, I just feel like a lot of the weight on all these things. It's like we just have to stay in our own foot.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you guys together or not?

[Unknown]

I think we're getting more on the same page.

[Ramit Sethi]

How can that be? He's about to move out.

[Unknown]

I told him I want to move into a situation that one of us can handle, because then as soon as I move into the house, if I need to pay for everything, all our expenses, fixed costs, all of that, so that you can go aggressively tackle debt. We have a plan together, and we have more resources. I've been planning and pushing towards, like, something that I know I can manage so that I can help. I mean, I like giving. I like taking care of people that I care about, and sometimes I get pretty spread thin. But we'll be able to tackle these things together next year, and that's the ultimate goal.

[Ramit Sethi]

What is the goal specifically?

[Unknown]

That we can live in the same place and a place that's well below our means. So he can tackle debt, and I can save like I want to save.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you agree that your goal is to live together, Live beneath your means, so that you can pay off debt aggressively?

[Maggie]

My goal is to live with her, but as far as live the debt and all that stuff, like, that's something that's. That's. This is new for me. This is literally like, opening up your book and getting all my numbers down on a piece of paper and then being, like, Holy. I really need to get myself out of this situation.

[Ramit Sethi]

So is that your plan to pay off debt?

[Maggie]

Absolutely. 100%.

[Justin]

More circular reasoning here. But I'm starting to see glimmers of what's actually going on. Both of them pride themselves on their extreme independence. That's their identity. But that identity becomes hard to reconcile with wanting to be together, especially when being together involves trade offs. It's almost like these identities are butting heads. I can understand why Maggie is frustrated about how Justin handles money. But I also find that this dynamic happens when one partner begins on a financial journey and the other doesn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is really common.

[Justin]

The person who's starting their journey gets frustrated with their partner. Why aren't you engaging? Why aren't you doing this with me? Not realizing that a few years ago they themselves were ignoring money. Now, if you want to know how to recalibrate your relationship so that your partner also gets involved with money, I talk about this very specifically with Word for Word scripts in my new book Money for Couples. You can get [e-mail] money for couples. And now listen to this. Justin tells me about his financial journey growing up. And it's something I have never heard before.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you remember your parents or family saying about money when you were young?

[Maggie]

We really didn't talk about money, but I grew up with Ferraris in the garage and really? Oh yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow.

[Maggie]

Like a extreme wealth.

[Ramit Sethi]

Mom or dad was the higher dad. Dad was a hire. Like extreme hire extreme. How much do you think he made?

[Maggie]

A million dollars a day.

[Ramit Sethi]

A day?

[Maggie]

At one point. At one point, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What'd he do?

[Maggie]

He managed hedge fund and he had his own firm and he also got in a lot of trouble. I kind of grew up as having the dad of Wolf of Wall street, but not a bad guy. I think that he was working in Wall street at a time when it was the wild, wild west. And when they started to put some rules down, they were making examples out of people and the government was going after his former partner and they used my dad to take him down. And it didn't quite go to my dad's advantage.

[Ramit Sethi]

What happened to him?

[Maggie]

Incarcerated. Oh, wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tell me.

[Maggie]

So he got put in a minimum security prison and decided one day that he didn't want to be there anymore. So my mom packed us up in a minivan and we went to Colorado and my dad suddenly opens the door and gets in the minivan. And then we drove out to San Diego and hopped on our sailboat and sailed across the South Pacific. For three years as fugitives.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then when you came back because you're here in the US now, did he get rearrested?

[Maggie]

Oh, he got arrested in New Zealand. We got busted there just to share.

[Ramit Sethi]

How different my childhood was. We also had a minivan, but when it opened up, my dad would have handed me a spelling bee book and said, why are you not reading this right now?

[Maggie]

Yeah. Mine was like, here's how we're going to be fugitives. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much money do you think your family had when you were growing up?

[Maggie]

Probably tens of millions.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does your dad still have a lot of money?

[Maggie]

The money that he had from his Wall street days kind of got squandered.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's his financial status, though?

[Maggie]

He's got nothing. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What messages did you take away from going from extreme wealth to not having a lot of money?

[Maggie]

I have a funny relationship with money. I mean, I just. I don't think I value it the same as most people. When I first got started in filmmaking, I was working for this guy, and one day he goes, you grew up with money, didn't you? And I was like, yeah, how'd you know that? Because I'm not, you know, flaunting anything. And he's like, I can tell because you're just not hungry like other people are. And I was like, what do you mean by that? And he's like, well, you know, people who grew up with no money will bend over backwards. And, you know, and to me, it just seems like you always have a fallback plan. And I took that to heart and changed my work ethic quite a bit because of that. The cool thing about growing up with money is that you're not afraid to take risks. And that's very true. I feel like a lot of the reason that I've gotten as far as I have in my career and doing the things that I do is because, I mean, I'll go all in, you know? And I do believe in those lottery tickets. I do believe that, you know. Yes. I've been reading your book, and if you have a steady paycheck and you're just steady at putting away money, and 30 years down the line, you'll have a million dollars. Right. Like, I know that's true, but I also do know that sometimes if you take a big enough risk, a calculated risk, that the reward can be huge.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Maggie, what do you make of this story? What is your take hearing it?

[Unknown]

It's made for some really interesting adult problems with money, for sure. With the money situation. It's like it just comes and it flows through, Justin.

[Maggie]

Like water.

[Unknown]

Like. Yeah, exactly. It's just as very. There's like not a lot of thought given to it because it's like, even when it's not an unlimited resource, it's treated as such.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you mean that money comes, money goes. If you're raised with millions and millions of dollars, it starts to become so abstract. You're just like, whatever. If it's not here today, there'll be another way tomorrow.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And I think for me, I would say money's freedom. I think when you work hard and you make money, you can free up your time. If you manage your money well, you can live really well.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does it mean to you, Justin?

[Maggie]

I just wish we didn't rely on it. I live a rich life, but I'm not rich for sure. I definitely put experiences and living life before anything else.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, do you agree or disagree, Maggie?

[Unknown]

I agree.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so you're both on the same page on that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Experiences above accumulation.

[Maggie]

Well, hold on. That shifted for you now at a.

[Unknown]

Really different perspective shift. Prior to the pandemic, I was traveling for six years out of a backpack and working from my laptop. My goal was to eventually figure out a way to be a six figure hobo. I don't want to be tied to any destination, but I want to make good money. And then on my 30th birthday, I was on the beach in Thailand with $5 to my name. And I'm like, I have not figured out the six figure hobo thing. And I'm not saving. I'm not doing anything like that. And that was when a big shift happened.

[Ramit Sethi]

What has changed for you?

[Unknown]

I'm prioritizing saving. It means a lot more what I leave for my friend's kids. If anything were to happen to me, like, I'm crazy Aunt Maggie, and I think they'll always be in my life. So leaving something for them, being able to have the time to spend with them, being able to save money, not necessarily buy a farm, but I would like to do stuff like that. Like, what's the next financial goal that I could, like, strive for and make happen? Have a retirement, which I've never thought about before.

[Ramit Sethi]

So is it fair to say that both of you prioritized experiences in your 20s and now? Maggie, you are much more conscious of things like retirement, savings rate, etc. And Justin, maybe not. And that's causing conflict.

[Maggie]

Definitely. When Maggie and I got together, I was like, sick. Now I have somebody who's down to go To India. We won't make any money, but we also will break even, you know, so life experience. Cha Ching, right? And I thought that that's who I had by my side. And suddenly she was like, no, no, no, wait, hold on. I gotta put aside. I gotta.

[Ramit Sethi]

She's like, what about the debt? Yeah, yeah, right. Okay, fair enough. This happens when couples meet and then one partner changes, and it causes a lot of conflict, and there's either a recalibration or a separation. Sounds like you're both trying to recalibrate. What about things like retirement? What about if one of you gets sick, or you want to leave money to the niece and nephew, etc. How do you do that?

[Maggie]

Actually, finally having these open conversations about money has shifted our ability to talk about that and figure it out. One thing that has been a healthy part of this conversation, especially around finances, is that one thing we both agreed that we really would like to do in the future is sail around the world on a sailboat.

[Unknown]

And that's, like, way off.

[Maggie]

Something we're working towards together to get there. But it is sort of a retirement plan. And so there is this, like, future that's a ways out that we've both decided that is what we both want to do. And as part of this conversation about finances, it's been like, well, what. How much does a boat cost? How much are we going to need every month to be able to survive on it? So it's opened up some conversations on, like, what do we need to do to get to that point? What do we need to put aside? And do I need to hustle now? Do I need to give up on some of these other things?

[Ramit Sethi]

So what's. How much do you need specifically?

[Maggie]

We don't know yet.

[Unknown]

We have to figure that out. What we've been good at is it's, like, cool. We want to do something. We can make money up here like that. And then all of a sudden, it's gone and we're right back where we were before we started. I want it to be where it's like, oh, you want to do Japan for your birthday? Let's just talk about it. Six months out and we already have funds. We already know that that's a part of what we love doing together. I don't want to stop travel. I don't want him to not be able to go to Japan. I want it to be something we work into our plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you think that you're on track to be able to live that kind of life where you're talking 6 months, 12 months, 2 years out.

[Unknown]

I don't think we're on track right now, but I think that's why we're here is that we're having those conversations.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm glad you're having the conversations, but there's a lot more to making changes than having conversations. It seems like things have changed in the last month. That's awesome. But what's next? We can talk about things forever. We can spin, but we need to actually make some tangible financial changes.

[Justin]

We'll open up their conscious spending plan after the short break from our sponsors. Okay, look, there are a lot of things people tell you you should do and you don't.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm not going to sit here and.

[Justin]

Lecture you about flossing your teeth. But there are important things that we ignore and I want you to get these right. Imagine, if you will, that you have just suffered your premature death and now your husband or wife, they're grieving, sitting at the dining room table trying to figure out how to log into your E Trade account while the tears fall down and soak your keyboard. If you don't set up a will before you die, you're definitely going to be seeing this scene happen from hell. And that's why I'm so happy to announce that Trust in Will makes creating your will easy. You can actually get 10% [e-mail] Ramit my coworker recently created a will for her family on trust and will and here's what she told me. It was incredibly easy, very straightforward. I followed very simple prompts to fill out all of my personal info, my family, beneficiaries, assets, etc. In less than an hour I had a will, power of attorney, documents, last will and testament, and HIPAA authorizations. I can download these docs, have them executed, or even hire an attorney to look over them for me. Now, I personally used an attorney for my own estate plan, but I recognize that not everyone has access to an estate attorney. If that's you, trust and will is a great option. It makes estate planning accessible and affordable. You can save loved ones time and stress by having all of your documents in one place and they are safe and encrypted. They also have live customer support available through phone, chat and email. Let trust and will uncomplicate the process for you. Protect what matters most in [e-mail] ramit and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free [e-mail] ramIt.

[Ramit Sethi]

In my company, we have a saying.

[Justin]

When we are trying to dream bigger.

[Ramit Sethi]

About designing a new program and we.

[Justin]

Say, if we could wave a magic wand, what would we want to see? And the magic wand is a tool to help you think about the best case scenario, like helping you hit your goals faster, more clearly feeling good about it. So if you're a business owner, you might want the magic wand to get better insights into the future of your company. And if that is you, you should check out our sponsor, Netsuite by Oracle. Over 38,000 businesses have future proofed their businesses with NetSuite by Oracle. The number one Cloud ERP bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform with one unified business management suite. There's one source of truth giving you the visibility and control you need to make actionable, quick decisions. And with real time insights and forecasting, you can actually see the future of your business. When you are closing your books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backward and more time thinking about what's next. Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and take those opportunities that you now see. Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at netsuite.com Ramit this guide is free to you at netsuite.com RamIT netsuite.com Ramit welcome back. Let's keep going.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's take a look at your csp. So let's see. Maggie, can you read off the word in bold and then the numbers next.

[Unknown]

To them split these out because we're separate. So assets 42,820 1,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

21,000 for Justin.

[Unknown]

Investments, 1375 and 7000 for Justin. Savings, 16,657 for me and 1,313 for Justin. And debt 15,389 for me and Justin has 92,950.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, great. Total net worth for you, Maggie is 45,000 and for you Justin is negative 63,000. Okay, what do you both think about these numbers?

[Unknown]

Like to be in a different place at the end of next year.

[Maggie]

I mean, that sucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so both of you are not happy with the numbers?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's go on to the income. Justin, go ahead and read off both incomes if you don't mind.

[Maggie]

Okay, gross monthly income for Maggie is $9,250. And for me it is 12,100 on average.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so total you two are making $21,350 a month?

[Maggie]

Yeah. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

256,000. That's a lot of money. And you live in Vegas. Would you agree that your income is impressive, especially if you were to look at it together?

[Maggie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Okay, great. That's kind of cool. So you're at $21,350 gross. That's $21,000 a month. And you're at roughly 16,000amonth. All right, so your fixed costs are 73%. What do you think about that?

[Unknown]

I'd like them to be lower. I'd like it to be closer to 50%.

[Ramit Sethi]

The recommendation I typically give is 50 to 60%. With a high income and presumably low fixed expenses, that number should be probably towards the lower end of that range. So your rent, 14%. Your rent is quite low.

[Maggie]

That's good because we have three people.

[Unknown]

People living.

[Ramit Sethi]

Three people. Fantastic. All right. No issue on the rent.

[Unknown]

We put child support under Justin's rent because we didn't know where to put an extra thousand.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's fine. So you pay an extra thousand dollars a month for child support?

[Maggie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's see here. We have car payment and transportation. What, 3,000 bucks a month? What. What kind of car is this?

[Justin]

Okay, I'm going to summarize a few things here. As we discussed Maggie and Justin's monthly car and transportation fixed costs, I discovered that they were commingling personal and business expenses in their csp. This is a very common rookie mistake. We had to make some adjustments on.

[Ramit Sethi]

The fly so that we could get.

[Justin]

A clearer picture of their numbers. Specifically, we changed Maggie's total car payment to eleven hundred dollars and Justin's to seventeen hundred dollars.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, we're back at seventy percent.

[Justin]

Let's keep moving.

[Ramit Sethi]

Justin, you're paying $718 a month towards debt. Let's talk about your debt. You have a motorcycle loan, 21,000. That's at 8%. And then you have a $19,000 credit card payment. And then who's got this business loan for $51,000? What is that for?

[Maggie]

That's the Eidl on the relief loan. During the COVID Did you get waived or you have to pay it off to pay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, and the credit card debt, what's that for?

[Maggie]

Life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, what?

[Maggie]

A big reason that I've stacked up a lot of credit card debt is because my pay is so inconsistent. What happens for me is that I get a certain percentage that's supposed to go to paying back my expenses. So I'll go do something where I travel somewhere. I have to pay all that upfront, I put it on my credit card. And what's happened this year especially is that I don't know when my. My next paycheck is coming. So rather than take the 50% that was expenses and put that towards my paying off my credit card right away, I've been choosing to pay off my credit card slowly and have just stacked up. And there's probably a couple thousand of that back paid utilities.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so you're at 70% fixed costs. Just looking at the rest of it here. Groceries, 800 clothes, 300 bucks a month. What is this because you guys are influencers?

[Maggie]

I actually really don't feel like I buy that much clothes, but she's trying to average it out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Maggie, you spend a hundred bucks a month on clothes. Average.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think that's accurate.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then, Justin, 200 bucks a month, which means 2,400 bucks a year.

[Maggie]

This year I spent more money than I have in a long time on sunglasses. And I bought two pairs.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'll make it 100 instead of 200. Okay. All right, cool. So that's 1200 bucks a year. Fine. Phone. One person's paying 390. Why?

[Maggie]

I pay for my daughter's phone. I pay for her phone, I pay for my former employee's phone. And I pay for my phone.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're a very generous guy, but you have $20,000 in credit card debt. Maybe it's time to be generous towards yourself.

[Maggie]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Maggie, what do you say about you paying?

[Maggie]

She already agreed. She will.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. So can we take this number and adjust it? Let's say 80. And then you're going to pay for your daughter.

[Maggie]

So actually I'm getting her mom to take it over. So. Great. So let's just be on the one phone.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, 80 bucks each. I think it's quite reasonable. All right, so we've made a few little corrections here. I think that's good. You know, just ironing out the details, your support. Oh, subscriptions are 2250. That's 2,250 that. So of that therapy is 700 bucks. What's the rest of the subscriptions?

[Unknown]

Minus 500 for a personal trainer that I'm ending this month.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is going down.

[Unknown]

So it will be 360 and that all our subscriptions, except for maybe like Spotify and Netflix subscription, at least on my end, is all business stuff because we need the Adobe Creative Suite and.

[Ramit Sethi]

All that stuff that needs to not be in here, that needs to be in your business. So how much should I put here for Personal.

[Maggie]

It's still going to be a lot. 900 guys.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think I make of this so far? We have a lot to clean it up. What we just did was pretty cool. We went down the list, we identified some stuff. There were some conceptual things to change. No problem. We were like, why are you paying this much for X, Y and Z? You're like, oh, it's already in motion. Great. And guess what? Look at your fixed cost number.

[Maggie]

Down to 61%.

[Ramit Sethi]

61%, that's really good.

[Maggie]

But Maggie's got really good. And mine didn't really change very much.

[Ramit Sethi]

We should talk about that. But I just want to acknowledge that jointly. That's great. Now the difference is Maggie's is at 47 and Justin, yours at 71. 71, still too high. We need to fix that. But we're on the right track. Let's keep going. Investments are at 3% total. That's 6% for Maggie and 1% for Justin. Justin, you're putting away 90amonth for investments. What is.

[Maggie]

I was. I haven't been.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, and I noticed you have some crypto as well. $2,700 in crypto. Okay. You still contribute to that? No, Maggie, you put 400 bucks a month away into $100 a week is.

[Unknown]

Automatically getting dumped into an account. But I still have to manually. Manually putting it in a Roth. I've also just been putting in savings for emergency fund.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so anybody doing any pre tax Investing like a SEP IRA or 401K or anything?

[Maggie]

I have a Seth or a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Take a look.

[Maggie]

$2,000 in there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay. You have 7,000 bucks in investments. That's good.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's part of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Maggie, I noticed that you have $1,375 invest.

[Unknown]

That's the Roth.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's basically. You started investing like months ago.

[Unknown]

Yeah, Is automatically putting it in.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's take a look at your savings at 3%. Maggie's putting away 500 bucks a month just in. Not putting anything away. Right. What's that? Emergency fund. What is it for?

[Unknown]

That's the 16,000 I have in savings. So I wanted to start building up. It's in a capital one 4% savings account that I just wanted it separate from all my finances. Not like, oh, I'm kind of saving like actually in a separate account. And I started doing that last year, but it hasn't been automated.

[Ramit Sethi]

Truthfully, when I look at people's finances, the vast majority, including my own, just consistent automatic stuff. And it can grow bigger than most people ever think. It's crazy.

[Maggie]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then guilt free spending is at 33%, so that's 40%. For Maggie, that's 2,700 bucks a month. And for Justin, it's 28% at $2,500. So what is that travel or is that just whatever's left? Whatever's left feels a little sloppy. It's hard to make sense of what's going on. We did a little bit of work with the fixed costs, but it's very unclear with your businesses. You've commingled stuff and part of this is just a one sheet or so. You can start to see what's going on in our life and what do we want to happen. Okay, so looking at this, what do you think are the major positive?

[Unknown]

We make good money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And we can make more. Like, we can pull gigs all the time. And we can do even better than that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so that's the positive. I agree. What's the negative?

[Unknown]

I'm feel like I'm not saving enough. I still want to automate everything and I'm still just getting those systems in place. I haven't set up a 401k and tied that to, like, my business accounts, where that's automatically going into.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about for you, Justin? Positives and negatives.

[Maggie]

It was good to see how much I'm actually making. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You didn't know, right?

[Maggie]

Not really. I mean, I. I get a report every year from my accountant, so I mean, every year I'm like, whoa, that's crazy. I can't believe I made that much.

[Ramit Sethi]

The negatives.

[Maggie]

It sucks to see how much debt I'm in. And a lot of it's laziness. Honestly. A lot of like, what I've been reflecting on is just sort of not necessarily being in the best place in my life and making smart decisions.

[Ramit Sethi]

One thing I noticed when I asked both of you about positive and negatives, I didn't hear anything about your finances together. It's like I'm talking to two separate people.

[Maggie]

I mean, you are though, and that's the truth of the matter. This is not like when we look at combined, it's like, so what? It doesn't matter. None of this is combined.

[Ramit Sethi]

None of it's combined. And there's no intention of combining it.

[Maggie]

Correct.

[Ramit Sethi]

Both of you agree? So it's almost like, what's the point now?

[Maggie]

At least we were having the conversation. And so some of these things that have been my responsibility can at least be reallocated.

[Unknown]

I guess I Like, looking at the combined column, because I know together we can do some damage and, like, achieve the goals that we want. I don't see the debt as anything that isn't, like, tackleable. Like, I don't think it's something we can't figure out together.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's not a we. The two of you are not together. You live together. You don't spend money together. You don't talk about money together. You don't have a vision together. So when you say we could, we can, yeah, I mean, I can play professional football, theoretically, it's not going to happen.

[Maggie]

Where the we comes into play a little bit more is because of this YouTube channel that we've been working on together. Right now we have over $120,000 in sponsorship pitches out. We've talked about it, and Maggie's like, look, you know, because my issue is that I don't have some sort of consistent pay. So where the conversation has gone as a we is, okay, well, how about we take the money that we make from that sponsorship and we pay you a consistent salary, right? And that way next year, you at least have something that's somewhat consistent.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's play that out. So you have the YouTube channel. Let's say it grows modestly, and some of those pitches come in, you get some money. How much are you getting paid?

[Maggie]

I get paid 80 grand.

[Ramit Sethi]

And the rest is for expenses.

[Maggie]

And the rest is for expenses.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what happens if this happens 2, 3, 4 years, like you, you keep getting paid 80k, and then what happens to the two of you with your finances?

[Unknown]

Right now, our finances seem really separate, but, like, the financial decisions that we're making for next year, as far as, like, what's affordable, I think we're coming at it together, and we're talking about how much we do pay and how it's managed.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I just want to know from you, what do you need? And I hate to put you on the spot, because I can see you have been taking charge of your own finances. And for me to ask you, what do you need from him? Feels like now you have to take on one more burden.

[Justin]

I hate that.

[Ramit Sethi]

And yet I am intentionally asking you that question because you two do not talk about money, even though you think you do in the last month and it's gotten better. You're not talking about the bare minimum here.

[Unknown]

I just want some similar priorities and some similar game plan and him to manage his finances. I don't want to feel like I have to take it on.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you hear when she says.

[Maggie]

That Justin making smarter decisions and being intentional, not just be like, ah, you know what, I'll take a little bit of this and put it towards that and oh, if I get my next big paycheck, I'll just, you know, wipe this out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Isn't that what's happening with the YouTube channel? This idea of let's assume we're going to make 120k, then we're going to pay you 80k. But it's not clear what happens going forward in the channel. Like, it's not clear why does one person get 80k? You're not communicating about money for a variety of reasons and each decision you make is one off. It's totally episodic.

[Justin]

This is not the way money works.

[Ramit Sethi]

Money actually effectively works when you make a consistent set of decisions and they build upon each other. So, for example, when I hear your YouTube discussion, I go, that's just one of a million one off decisions and you don't even know it.

[Justin]

You think you're doing the right thing.

[Ramit Sethi]

But you're just doing the exact same thing over and over. Do you see that? If I started a business with a business partner, do you think I would go, hey, I think we're. Let's just assume we're going to make 120k and then you should get 80k and then like, we'll talk about it later. Even though we have no evidence of ever effectively talking about money.

[Unknown]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

The real question, though is do you want your finances to be combined or not?

[Justin]

We'll be right back after this short break.

[Ramit Sethi]

I have a challenge for you.

[Justin]

Log into your online bank and look through your purchases from the last month. Are there any subscriptions you don't even remember signing up for? Forgotten subscriptions are a huge money sink, and they cost couples hundreds, sometimes thousands.

[Ramit Sethi]

Of dollars every year.

[Justin]

I suggest it's time to stop wasting money on subscriptions you're not even using. And to do that, I recommend using Rocket Money, the sponsor of this week's episode. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money allows you to see all of your subscriptions in one place so you know exactly where your money is going. And Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year. When using all of the app's premium features, cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial Goals faster With rocket Money, go to RocketMoney.com Ramit today. That's RocketMoney.com Ramit RocketMoney.com Ramit now back to the show.

[Maggie]

As far as us combining all this money, like, I don't know what benefit we actually have. There are things that I do feel like it would be nice to know. The conversation we had the other day was like, well, here's the thing. If this was flipped around and you were $90,000 in debt and I was making money, I would want to try to help you get out of that debt. And she was like, is that your expectation for me? Should I be helping you pay your debt?

[Ramit Sethi]

And is it?

[Unknown]

I don't know.

[Maggie]

To some degree, yeah. Like, I kind of do wish I. I had a partner who was like, man, I feel bad for the situation you're in, and I want to help you out, but I also don't want to put that burden on her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's do this. Let's actually have an actual conversation. You two talk to each other. I'm gonna listen.

[Maggie]

Being in a relationship with somebody that you really want to spend the rest of your life with, like, a lot of this is. It's give and take. And I feel like a lot of our relationship has been a lot of take on your side, and I've been a lot of give. And I think that for me, there have been some times where I wish it would flip a little bit. You know, like, maybe I wasn't very open and honest about where I was financially and all that, but I don't know. There's part of me that kind of hoped that you would ask and you knew. There were times when I was financially stressed out. Like, you didn't have a picture of what everything was going on, but he knew that I was strapped. And just, like, for Ashley, who I know has a medical condition and all that, but she always knew she had a backup, like, you were going to be there for her. Now would like to figure out together how to really get out of this mess. You know, Like, I have actually been thinking about it. Like, if this $120,000 comes through, I want to try to knock out that debt right away, you know, and it would be nice to, like, have you open to that and having discussions about that kind of stuff so that we can just move forward.

[Unknown]

I'm not opposed to that at all. And I think I'd be willing to give more help, too, in other ways if we were able to come up with a plan and to See that this was a priority because it's kind of gotten to where it's at because it hasn't been a priority. But I see us getting on track for that. And I can help a lot more if I know that you are making it a priority. We both make good money. We both could help get out of this situation and start fresh.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did that feel, to have that conversation?

[Unknown]

Good.

[Ramit Sethi]

Pretty hard.

[Unknown]

It's hard.

[Maggie]

Good.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hard.

[Unknown]

I also don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to be the one that's like, don't do this, don't do that.

[Maggie]

I just stop kidding Starbucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that's a pretty profound point. I think that in relationships, often there's one person who knows about money more and the other doesn't. And unfortunately, it often turns out that in a heterosexual relationship, it's the woman who's placed in the position of having to go, why are you doing that? This concept of a nag. I hate that word. And I hate that people get placed in the position of doing it, because when I ask people who are in that dynamic, do you like this dynamic? They both go, no, but it's deeper often because the other person is avoiding money. Like you avoid money. Right. Just. You don't talk about it. You don't effectively manage it. That causes you, Maggie, to be worried about it and then to chase him. And the more you chase him, the more he avoids it. And you're in this terrible dynamic, and.

[Maggie]

It breaks down the trust a lot. This is the. The common theme throughout all of this has just been like, I don't trust you.

[Justin]

Is he right?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, he is.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I feel like now that I've seen some numbers, that it wasn't off base.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. I wouldn't trust him with money.

[Maggie]

You don't want me managing your money.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, but the thing is, you're not saying that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're not being honest. Why are you not being honest about this? We're actually having an honest discussion. And you're constantly trying to pivot to another topic, using humor. He's saying, you don't trust me. An effective communicator would say, you're right. I don't trust you. You have $92,000 in debt, including credit cards, a business loan, and a motorcycle loan. Why would I trust you with money? Of course I want to trust you. But your behavior and financial mismanagement has made me not trust you. How come you're not saying that?

[Unknown]

Because I've said things about all of the different debts it's come up multiple times, and I've brought it up, and I don't want to be the nag.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think acknowledging how you feel is the most honest thing you can do. And I think you're actually causing yourself more pain in both of you by dancing around the topic. If it were me in this relationship first. I don't understand if the two of you want to be married or if the two of you want to be together. Justin, you say you do. I hear that from you, Maggie. It's very unclear from your end, and now I can understand why. It's like, hey, I'm on my journey of being financially secure, and I don't know if my partner wants to or can do it. That's fair. But I don't think you've said that candidly to him. And I don't think you've said to yourself, do I want to be with a partner who cannot be on the same journey I'm on? What is your answer to that?

[Unknown]

I think the answer is no.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Have you told him?

[Unknown]

I have not.

[Maggie]

I mean, I safely assume that one.

[Ramit Sethi]

But let's talk about it. Because one of the reasons that Justin has not managed his money is there's no reason to. I had some overflow expenses that my partner didn't pay me back for. Okay, I'll put it on the credit card.

[Justin]

I'll resent it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Which I understand that. I would resent it as well, but, like, what's the consequences? But it sounds like you're actually trying to create a boundary for yourself. I think this is the kind of partner I want. This is what I need. If you can do that, I'd love to be together. But if you can't. What?

[Unknown]

It's not going to work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, go ahead and have that conversation.

[Unknown]

I think it's safe to say that we're at a point where it's like the responsibility and finances doesn't change. I don't think we're going to be able to build a life together that we want.

[Maggie]

That's fair, and I totally get it. And I think that, you know, a big part of what we've been talking about is that this gives us a clean slate to move forward. You know what I mean? I think as part of these conversations that we've been having, like, you're telling me, hey, if you don't get your together, this is done, and that's fair. I understand why entirely, and I'd like to work on this together. I've been wanting to talk about this together for a long time. So cool. I'm good with that. Part of what I've been hoping for in all this is actually, like, some real commitment. And I would really like for this to actually be the thing where it's like, hey, let's talk about this, because this is serious stuff, and then commit to taking care of each other.

[Unknown]

We won't be able to build what we both want from sailing around the world, all of this stuff, if we don't develop good habits and open communication surrounding this stuff. And that's what I'm asking, asking for. Not so that we get to some, you know, aloof whatever. It's not so we get married. I'm not promising that. I'm saying I think we should be doing this together. We should be doing finances together. And I've been really hesitant about that because I don't know if I've had the trust that this is going anywhere.

[Maggie]

Well, the trust goes two ways. There's a long period of time, too, for me, where I just thought, at some point you're going to be like, Cha Ching and cash in your check and peace out.

[Ramit Sethi]

There is one topic lurking beneath the surface that I feel, Justin, you're dancing around, and I want you to have a space to talk about it. And that is the fact that you helped Maggie financially and that she did not pay you back. That is, to me, this gigantic elephant in the room. You have a lot of resentment around that, it seems. Can you talk about that with her?

[Maggie]

The reality is I would never pay somebody this amount of money to do what you were doing. Not even just like, because you were doing too much or too little. It was just like, just wouldn't pay somebody consistently. But for me, the reason that I did it in large part really was because I did want for you to have the opportunity to be able to chase this dream, this thing that you. That you were going for. I mean, what would make me feel good is the same courtesy. Like, Justin, I know you're in a financial crisis and I want to help you and I love you. Not just, I'll set up the spreadsheet for you and you figure it out. It's your problem. It would be nice to have some money going towards it or towards paying off my debt and getting clear of the situation so that we can start together on the same page. I'm going to be crawling out of this mess alone forever. And for us to get to that start line together is pretty far at this point. Unless we do it together somehow. I get this situation with your best friend, it's complicated, and I honestly feel for you, and I want to be as supportive as I can, but I also need for us to be able to get to that start line together so that we can tackle the future together.

[Unknown]

We got to make enough money to get there.

[Maggie]

We got to make enough money to get there, and that's fine.

[Ramit Sethi]

So that was pretty honest. I appreciate that. Do you have a reaction to that, to what he said?

[Unknown]

I would have never taken support if I knew it was going to be held over my head. I've never been given clear direction on us how to clear that debt, ever. If it's like you want me to pay you back for everything, I don't want you to pay. We can start fresh from there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. You never would have taken the support had you known it would be held over your head. Okay. Do you feel that he's holding it over your head? Yeah. I'm not sure I interpret it the same way.

[Unknown]

There's something that I owe, and I just haven't been able to figure out how to repay it.

[Maggie]

It's not money. It's just a. Like being in a relationship with somebody and loving them enough that you're willing to put aside money to take care of them. And that's very clear in one relationship in our life, and it's completely not clear in the other one.

[Unknown]

If I do that for us, if I commit to paying part of your debt off, are you going to feel like we're doing this together? Is that going to quell some of these feelings that you have? Are you going to feel like I'm more invested?

[Maggie]

I mean, yeah, but I feel like it's forced.

[Unknown]

It's not forced.

[Maggie]

And this is the part that gets really tricky. It's like, okay, so since we've been dating, I've been going to therapy a lot, and one thing I've learned is expressing needs. And I'm still learning that. Right. So there's needs and there's expectations, and I've been trying to really eradicate a lot of these expectations. But, like, one of those things, it's like a weird gray area where this is on me because I did give to her and wanted to do that for her. And should I expect the same treatment?

[Ramit Sethi]

Fantastic point. I'm so glad you're seeing a therapist, because this is deep. Can I share some observations? You two both tell yourself certain stories. One of them is that your life is really complex. It's not that complex for me. I see two entrepreneurs. You got A couple of things over here and there, and you make a lot of money. All right, the question for me is, what do you both want? That's it. Because the rest of it we can figure out if we want to pay the debt off that could be paid off. The way you talked about getting to zero debt is that's our starting line. Did you notice that phrase you used, blank page, starting line? You can't be living in this murky gray area until you pay off $92,000 of debt. It's a horrible way to live. And that's why you've been feeling this way. And from your perspective, Maggie, it's like. Well, like you kind of got yourself into this. You haven't been paying attention. It's cost you. I need you to step up and take care of this, and then we can talk about what's next. So both of you are feeling hurt. You're feeling separate. And what I'm hearing from you, Justin, is like, hey, I want to connect. I want us to come together. If I were to have had the conversation you both had, here's what I would have said, okay? I would have said, as Justin, I really appreciate you pushing me to take charge of my money. I know I haven't done it for a long time, and it's cost me, and I'm in this situation because of my decisions. I'm going to make a plan to pay this debt off, okay? I take responsibility for it. But there are a couple things I need from you. One, I need your encouragement because this is new to me and you've been doing it longer than I have. I might make mistakes. Two, I need you to pay me back for the extra amount that I paid, the rent. We can talk about how to make it palatable and spread it out over several months. But that was thousands of dollars. And in order for me to get debt free, I need that money, and I think it's fair. Three, I would feel much better if, like, I helped you and I wanted to when you were in financial trouble, if we could talk about that and you could help me now. I don't expect it. I hope that you feel comfortable. And if you say no, it's going to hurt, but I'll accept it. But this is a conversation I want to have. Those are the three things I would say. Justin, what do you think about that?

[Maggie]

Yeah. Wish I could speak that clearly.

[Ramit Sethi]

It takes time. But really, it's the key thing that I did that you did not do.

[Maggie]

Was take the emotion out of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, it Was quite emotional. It was. First it was appreciating her. I appreciate you pushing me. I haven't been great taking responsibility. How did that feel when I said that?

[Unknown]

It was good as acknowledgement, but I've been doing something.

[Justin]

Exactly.

[Ramit Sethi]

And she has. She's been on her own journey. And now she's encouraging you. Maybe she's not doing it in the exact way you want it. This conversations are hard. That's why you're here. But just acknowledging her goes a long way. If Justin were to have said it that way, how would you respond?

[Justin]

Maggie?

[Unknown]

I feel like I'm pretty amenable to all those things.

[Justin]

I could see that Maggie and Justin were trying to have a real sincere conversation about money. And sometimes I like to step in and model how I might have that conversation because I find it really helpful to see how other people do it. And in my own personal life, I have had friends offer advice on how to have difficult conversations in my own.

[Ramit Sethi]

Personal and business life.

[Justin]

Now I want to walk through Justin's request again, this time giving Maggie a chance to respond. And remember, these two don't talk about money. So I really want to take it step by step, letting them each build the skills to talk to each other about money. And I have to admit something. As I listen back to this, I found myself cringing at how direct I was, how blunt I was sometimes.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's welcome. I think I overdid it here.

[Justin]

Truthfully, looking back, I wish I had slowed this down and been a lot gentler with each of them. They are both trying. And so, Maggie and Justin, I apologize for being a little clunky with this part of our conversation together.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's start with the easy one.

[Maggie]

Maggie, it has been really awesome to watch you really getting your together. It's inspiring. So much so that I was like, dang, she's getting her together. And I bet her, too.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what do you say to that?

[Unknown]

I'm glad I was able to do that. And the only reason I've even given pushes is because you said you were open to it. You have said that this is something that you want to tackle.

[Ramit Sethi]

And, Maggie, why don't you just take a compliment?

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Next. Justin said, I would like to be paid back.

[Unknown]

I'm willing to do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fantastic. You see how we're taking the wins each step? One person's going out on a limb and saying something like, I appreciate you, or here's what I need. If you can deliver what your partner needs, tell him. Don't get lost in your story. No, if he's saying I want this and you can deliver it, do it. Okay. Finally, the most contentious part of all, the helping. He's got 92,000 minus the back pay. So 80 something thousand dollars he's going to have to pay off. What are your thoughts?

[Unknown]

What do you need me to do?

[Maggie]

It'd be nice to figure out if there's some way that you can help me take that down a little bit faster. But I'm not expecting you to give. First of all, I don't expect you to pay me back for that. I would just really like for you to want to help me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Pause. One suggestion I want to give to both of you is you both lose connection when you talk too much. In a more effective conversation, you might say something like this. I appreciate you asking what I need. I'm going to tell you the truth. What I need is help to pay this debt off faster. But I don't have an exact number. Would it be okay if I go home, calculate out a plan, and then I come to you and we can look over my proposal together? If I were you, Maggie, I would have said, look, I want to help you, I'm willing to. But right now I'm worried if I just pay money off, it's just good money after bad. Because you've gotten into debt before and I don't see a plan. Sure, right.

[Justin]

Is that accurate?

[Unknown]

Definitely accurate.

[Ramit Sethi]

So these are the kind of direct conversations you're not being rude, you actually being respectful when you just tell, here's what I'm feeling, here's what I'm willing to do, this is what I need. Justin, you're being really honest when you say, look, I want some help. Oh. Biggest question for the two of you is do you truly want to be together? If you do, then there's lots of give and take that can be done. Justin, you would have to take the responsibility of making a plan of paying your debt off aggressively if you wanted to do it. Some of the things that I would look to see would be you selling one of your vehicles and putting that money directly into your debt. It would be cutting your subscriptions way down and your guilt free spending, which is not even accurate at all. You'd be able to put an extra at least thousand dollars a month towards your debt. You could shave off months and months and months of your debt repayment. If you were to make that plan and you were to present it, I actually think it'd be one of the most connective things you could possibly do. Yeah, and Then, Maggie, I think that you would have to be clear with yourself about what is it you're looking for in a relationship. Because as you start to get into your late 30s and 40s, this is a very common pattern. People who are kind of free spirits in their twenties, and then they go, wait a second, like, I want to save. And their partner is like, wait, I feel kind of betrayed. You're not the person that I initially met, but can you still be adventurous and be a planful person? Yeah, I totally think you can. You'll have to decide what is it exactly you're looking for? Can Justin deliver that? What's the kind of partner that I want? And if I were you, I would be really honest with him, like, this is what I'm looking for. And then he does it or he does it, and the two of you decide if this is the right call or not. In my book, I have this concept of a dreamer. A dreamer is someone where success is always one deal away. And dreamers don't like the consistent kind of saving investing. It feels boring. They even use phrases like, oh, they have like a boring 9 to 5. And it's really hard with dreamers if you're trying to build a stable, growing financial life. Justin, you kind of described yourself as a dreamer. The dreamer has to endure real consequences. I think what's really happening here is in a roundabout way, Maggie, you're trying to create some boundaries for yourself. Justin, I think you're hearing her loud and clear and you're saying, okay, I'm going to try. I need a little help. So to me, it's very possible that the two of you do get aligned, but it will take a lot of work. What do you think?

[Maggie]

100%. Honestly, we've actually had some really great, heartfelt conversations over this last month that we never have had. And it felt good. I mean, it didn't feel good right away. But then when we talked about it and got through it, I believed in us more than ever before.

[Ramit Sethi]

Money can really bring couples together. Sometimes it's hard. I think the way you set your life up, you're running against the wind right now. Your finances are set up separately. Every decision you make is by default made as an independent single person. That's number one in a most relationships. At a certain point, they will combine, and there are benefits to it. The first and biggest benefit is that the two of you start to think as a unit. The second thing is you can accomplish a lot together. You can see that your finances are actually quite healthy. On a day to day basis, if you combine them. But when we split them, Maggie, you're at 47% fixed cost, which is actually below the typical range. And Justin, you're at 71, which is way above it. So it looks healthy, but underneath it's not healthy. The other ways that you're running against the wind, you have all these business things that you've set up which are overly complex. I would simplify it dramatically. The way I would think about it would be each of our businesses needs to make a certain amount of income for a household. One person commit to making 6,000, the other commits to making 8,000. I'm making the numbers up. Anything above that, you two put into a buffer for when times are slow or one of you sick or whatever. But you need to be able to run a household on this amount of income. And that is your commitment. It's a really simple way of looking at the world. And you don't have to run against the wind anymore. You just know every month this is what I need to deliver. And anything above, first we'll fill up a nice savings account and eventually we will make our life a little better. Truthfully, Justin, if I'm you, I think that the dreamer tendencies for you have not been serving your relationship. That is what I mean when I say the wind is against you. I hope you get a huge deal. But I've seen dreamers who get a huge payday. And what they do is they do the same thing they always do. It's episodic. They take the money, they pay off all the debt, and now they have a little bit left over. And they're like, what's next? Bigger swing next time? And it's like, no, you didn't learn the lesson.

[Justin]

You got lucky.

[Ramit Sethi]

You could keep doing this for the rest of your life. So what do you. What do you guys want to do? Imagine this ends right now. You go back home. Think about it. What happens if we stop talking right now?

[Unknown]

I think some things will change, but I think we need a little bit more clearer plan.

[Maggie]

I know they will. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Sit down and a plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

You guys are literally sitting down right now with me across the country. Do you not want to make a plan right now?

[Unknown]

I want to make a plan right now.

[Maggie]

Yeah, let's.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you want to talk about making a plan? Let's make a plan.

[Maggie]

We'd like to figure out how. How much money we need to save to be able to live on a sailboat.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, that's not going to happen. I'm Telling you right now, you don't have the money for it. You have $100,000 of debt. You have effectively less than $20,000 of savings between the two of you. There's no sailboat in the next 10 years. Part of making a plan is accepting reality. What's the next question? What's a real issue here and why are we still dancing around it? Three hours into our conversation, I want.

[Unknown]

To know what your goals are.

[Maggie]

I have an opportunity potentially to have a pretty steady income next year.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Maggie]

It's not at all in the direction of my career, though. It's a total offshoot and it's a result of all this influencer stuff. Another option is to we see what happens with this YouTube thing, and let's just say that we're lucky and all that comes through and I make $80,000, and I know I can make really good money if I work as a camera operator in Hollywood.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now, your gross income says 12,100. Right. Per month. So is that the number even at that?

[Maggie]

That's the average.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's the average number. That's fine. We're just talking averages at that number. Hard for me to tell because I can't tell your guilt free spending, but at 12,000, your fixed costs are 71. 71.

[Maggie]

I know I can make more money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hey, you do it consistently.

[Maggie]

I'm good at making money.

[Justin]

Okay. I love that.

[Ramit Sethi]

I could tell both of you are good at making money. That's no question about that. Can you add a layer to your identity that says I'm good at managing money?

[Maggie]

I would love to. This is exhausting. When I started making money, instead of me taking on the responsibility of my own money, I was like, I'm just going to hire an accountant. And I just didn't deal with the problem myself. I wasn't responsible myself. So then when things started drying up a bit, then I was just upside down. Because you didn't have the skill people and I didn't have the skills.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And it sounds like in order for this relationship to grow, you need to build those 100%. Okay.

[Maggie]

Yeah.

[Justin]

Okay. That's a huge realization.

[Maggie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. So if you were to say, I can consistently make $12,100 a month, I think you could put a lot of money towards your debt. Much more than the minimum right now. We've also heard Maggie say she agrees with the back pay, so that's going to contribute as well right there. That solves a lot of challenges. How you do it, that's up to you seems like you. You know your way around earning money, so it's not going to be that big of a problem. Everybody agree?

[Maggie]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else do you need for a plan?

[Unknown]

The reason we're doing this now is because we're young. So I can say I want to aggressively do this. Like, I want to look at my numbers and say that I want to hit more. I want to make 10 to 12,000amonth next year.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And that means saying no to a lot of things. I'd like to max out my Roth IRA for this year and by next year, have my 401k set up and need to figure out what I could max that out at. But I think I want to at least be putting, like, 1500amonth towards investments.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's look. You have about 2,000 bucks right now invested, right? Ballpark. Yeah, I'm gonna say 18,000 a year for invest. How many years you wanted this to grow?

[Unknown]

15.

[Ramit Sethi]

15. So conservatively, if we're looking at this, you'll have $489,000. What? How does that strike you?

[Unknown]

I mean, I want to double that.

[Ramit Sethi]

You can double it in a couple of ways. One, you can invest more, Right. Which I think you could. If you were to get really serious about investing, then you could. And if the two of you were to really get serious about money, with your incomes, you could invest a lot of money. I'm talking like 50,000 plus per year.

[Unknown]

I would like to do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

You've heard the couples on my show, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Justin]

You're like, oh, boohoo. Another wealthy couple.

[Ramit Sethi]

Boohoo. And they have millions of dollars. How'd you do it? Oh, we just focused on our income and then automatically invested a ton of money every single month, and we just let it grow. I'm just gonna say 22, 000 here just for easy math. Yeah. That takes you to 597. Still not enough. But guess what? If you let it sit there for 20 years, you're at 972,000. Time times what matters. There's lots of things you could do. Again, if it's the two of you and you are like, we want to do it, you could invest a lot and still travel and still take big swings. What do you think? What are the steps in order to get there? The first step for me is that the two of you decide we want to do this together. It means that, hey, we're committed. Here's what the terms of our relationship are. Just like the terms of a business agreement.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Be Open about it, write it down. Nothing wrong with that. I don't think it's weird. I think it's cool.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Got a business of the two of you together. So that's one twos. You got to set your finances up so that the wind is at your back. So it makes it easy. Automatically paying off debt every month should be automatic. Automatically saving and investing should be automatic. Just get out of the habit of this manual stuff is it's one of the reasons you're stuck. Yeah. Three regular monitoring and communication monitoring for both of you. Figure out a way to do it. If the spreadsheet's not what you want, you want to use a different doc, use a different document. But communication means every month we're sitting and talking about money.

[Maggie]

So we have like has a relationship thing. We do these board meetings.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that you have a board meeting. That's awesome. And for me in a board meeting, in a relationship, money is one key part of it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's like what's the state of our relationship? Are we good? Where are we going to travel to? You said this thing, it made me a little uncomfortable. But also let's talk about our money.

[Justin]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Beautiful.

[Unknown]

It's been missing but I think it something we could add to it.

[Justin]

I want to thank Maggie and Justin for sharing their story. It takes a lot of courage to talk about relationship and money issues in front of so many people. I noticed some themes in our conversations. Both of them have lots of stories about who they are, but those stories aren't necessarily serving them anymore. For example, they both define themselves by their extreme independence, but deep down they're both yearning to feel more connected to each other. They both have past histories with money, especially Justin with his dad. And those affect them even today. Most of all, they don't have a shared vision for a rich life. In our conversation there was lots of talking about random expenses, resentment about paid bills and walking on eggshells about what each of them wants. But I have to say that watching them have these conversations, even with my clunky interjections, was a true joy. Let's check in and watch their follow up videos up first let's hear from Justin.

[Maggie]

My biggest surprise from our conversation I think was how divided we really were. We haven't been really working towards anything together and definitely part of what we uncovered is just the truth and got to talk about things and it has helped bring up a lot of stuff about our relationship and you know, the power that we have together as a couple. Together we make a lot of money, and we are much more powerful as a couple. And I think that even if you're not married, so trying to figure out a way to combine some type of finance together makes you much more powerful as a team. My biggest changes so far are just like, I've canceled a lot of subscriptions, and I've been really, like, focused on, like, whoa, okay. There are things in my finances that I don't even know where this money's going. I had a lot of things on auto pay that were on my credit cards, which have been stacking up. So I took all that stuff off of auto pay, and I'm not adding more debt, which I think is really important. And I think, overall, Maggie and I have been able to start to have better conversations about making decisions. Like, just today, we started talking about a car, and I feel like we're way more on the same page about that. And it's not a separate this is for me, this is for you situation. It's a, hey, how can we do this together? And I feel like that's a big win.

[Justin]

And now let's hear from Maggie's follow up.

[Unknown]

One of my biggest takeaways is that together, our finances look really good, we can be really successful, but we're not there. There isn't trust there. And that's something that takes time and building up and effort. So we have a lot of work ahead of us to get on the same page, to trust each other, and to start planning things financially together. So in order for us to do that, we really need to put the work in and start combining finances so that we can be as successful as we want to be and operating as a unit versus on these two separate planes with finances. Only been a couple days since our conversation, so we haven't had time to really map out the game plan. But I have high hopes that we're going to come up with a plan where we can handle our combined finances together and make decisions together moving forward.