209. “We bought a house we can’t afford, now what?”

Summary

Episode 209: “We Bought a House We Can’t Afford, Now What?”

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi
Host: Ramit Sethi
Release Date: May 20, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 209 of Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi, Ramit sits down with newlyweds Sunny and Jasmine, who recently purchased a house in Washington D.C. despite having significant debt and no prior in-depth discussions about their finances. This episode delves into the financial and emotional dynamics that emerge when couples make substantial financial decisions without a solid plan, highlighting the importance of transparent communication and strategic financial planning.

Meet the Couple: Sunny and Jasmine

Sunny and Jasmine are a young, ambitious couple in their late 20s with a combined gross annual income of approximately $180,000. Despite their impressive earnings, they find themselves grappling with $45,000 in credit card debt, no investments, and minimal savings. Their recent decision to purchase a $526,000 house was driven more by fear and a desire for security amidst a changing political climate than by a calculated financial strategy.

Jasmine reflects on their pre-purchase mindset:

"[...] Would have asked us six months ago when we were going to buy a house, we would have told you six years maybe. This was just not in our five year plan. It wasn't even in our one year plan."
— Jasmine [00:26]

Financial Breakdown

Ramit guides Sunny and Jasmine through their Conscious Spending Plan (CSP), highlighting critical financial metrics:

• Income: $14,948 per month (approximately $180,000 annually)
• Savings: $3,250
• Debt: $578,775 (including $519,000 for the house, $3,500 for Sunny’s car, and $55,275 in credit card and student loans)
• Net Worth: -$9,525

Ramit’s Insight:

"A lot of people do. Did you know that?"
— Ramit Sethi [05:24]

Despite their high income, their net worth is negative, primarily due to the substantial mortgage and existing debts. Ramit points out that while negative net worth can be alarming, their young age provides them with time to rectify their financial trajectory.

Emotional Reactions to Financial Decisions

The emotional strain of their financial situation becomes evident as Ramit delves deeper into their feelings about the house purchase.

Sunny expresses anxiety:

"I'm scared of doing something wrong and not being able to come back from it."
— Sunny [01:11]

Jasmine shares her concerns:

"I worry God forbid anything happens to him and his finances. Leaning back on me, we gonna fall."
— Jasmine [00:36]

Their initial attempts to discuss money, including using Ramit’s book for monthly financial meetings, led to frustration and hostility, revealing a lack of preparedness and mutual understanding.

Ramit’s Analysis and Advice

Ramit identifies several key issues in Sunny and Jasmine’s financial management:

1. High Fixed Costs:
   Their fixed costs account for 71% of their income, significantly higher than the recommended 50-60%. This includes the hefty mortgage payments and other essential expenses.

2. Lack of Investments:
   With 0% of their income allocated to investments, they are missing out on crucial opportunities for long-term financial growth.

3. Minimal Savings:
   Their savings rate stands at 11%, primarily consisting of a small emergency fund built over three months.

4. Debt Management:
   Significant credit card debt with high-interest rates poses a substantial risk to their financial stability.

Ramit emphasizes the necessity of joint financial responsibility:

"Partnership does not mean one person does everything. I don't care if you earn more, Sunny. That's fine. But right now you're the one bringing up these questions. And it feels like you're pulling teeth from Jasmine."
— Ramit Sethi [61:42]

He criticizes the couple’s reliance on one partner to manage finances, highlighting the unsustainable nature of this dynamic, especially in unforeseen circumstances such as job loss or emergencies.

Implementing Changes: Sunny and Jasmine’s Action Plan

Under Ramit’s guidance, Sunny and Jasmine take decisive steps to restructure their finances:

1. Reducing Fixed Costs:

   • Selling Sunny’s Car:
     "We were going to look at being open with each other. [...] So, I'm going to pay off my credit card debt."
     — Jasmine [63:57]

   • Cutting Insurance Costs:
     "We're in the process of changing it. We're saving $115 per month."
     — Sunny [48:25]

2. Debt Repayment:

   • Sunny aggressively pays off credit card debt:
     "So I'm going to use the money that I would essentially use as my paycheck for my business to pay my car off."
     — Sunny [48:42]

   • Jasmine commits to paying off her debts within five years:
     "I think realistically for me as paying off that debt at least within the next five years, not just two years."
     — Jasmine [42:39]

3. Cutting Subscriptions and Variable Expenses:

   • Jasmine reduces her subscriptions:
     "I can cut it down to under 100."
     — Jasmine [72:37]

   • Reallocating Disposable Income:
     "I'm going to do it because now I am ready."
     — Jasmine [33:28]

4. Starting Investments:

   • Sunny sets up a 401(k) to take advantage of employer matches:
     "I also did set up my 401k, which has a 5% match with my job."
     — Sunny [82:29]

   • Opening an investment account:
     "Finally opened my investment stock that I've been procrastinating on doing as well."
     — Sunny [82:47]

5. Career Development:

   • Jasmine commits to finding a more lucrative career path through Ramit’s program:
     "I'm willing to do that."
     — Jasmine [77:10]

Progress and Outcome

A month after their initial consultation with Ramit, Sunny and Jasmine report significant financial improvements:

• Reduction in Fixed Costs:
  From 71% to 56% of their income.

• Debt Elimination:
  Paid off credit card debts and reduced insurance costs substantially.

• Increased Savings and Investments:
  Achieved their three-month savings goal and started contributing to retirement accounts.

Jasmine shares their progress:

"We've really been cognizant of everything we've done so far. I've seen a big change in our savings and yeah, I'm just excited."
— Jasmine [82:54]

Sunny adds:

"We've got to be direct to put ourselves in a better position."
— Sunny [79:02]

Conclusion

Ramit underscores that while purchasing a house is a significant milestone, it should be approached with thorough financial planning and open communication between partners. The episode highlights the importance of:

• Transparent Financial Communication: Ensuring both partners are aware of and involved in financial decisions.

• Strategic Financial Planning: Balancing income, expenses, debt repayment, and investments to build a sustainable financial future.

• Empowerment through Education: Encouraging both partners to educate themselves about personal finance to make informed decisions.

Sunny and Jasmine’s journey illustrates that even when initial financial decisions may seem imprudent, with commitment and strategic planning, couples can realign their financial goals and work towards a secure and enriched life together.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, promotional segments, and non-content sections from the original podcast episode.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

If you're enjoying the Money for Couples podcast, I'd love to hear more from you. In the show notes below, I've added a quick listener survey. It helps me understand more about you and what you think of the podcast so that we can constantly work on creating more episodes for you. So please do me a favor. Check out the show notes and take five minutes to fill out this quick survey. We read every single response. Go to iwt.com podcast survey if you.

[Jasmine]

Would have asked us six months ago when we were going to buy a house, we would have told you six years maybe. This was just not in our five year plan. It wasn't even in our one year plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you afford it?

[Sunny]

She'll probably say no.

[Jasmine]

I worry. God forbid anything happens to him and his finances. Leaning back on me, we gonna fall.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you basically doubled your expenses on housing.

[Sunny]

I brought it up to her about buying a house when the political climate changed. I'm black, she's mixed and trans. I just thought it was really important for us to have at least property that was ours.

[Ramit Sethi]

You make 147 a year and they told you you could pay 850 for a house. Okay. Attention all lenders in America. You mother.

[Sunny]

I'm scared of doing something wrong and not being able to come back from it. I really do want to make change.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm about to talk to Sunny and Jasmine. They're newly married. They just bought a house in D.C. and they have never really talked about money. Their first real conversation about it happened recently over dinner and that conversation ended in silence. Taking a look at their numbers, I'm going through their conscious spending plan or CSP. You can download a free [e-mail] CSP they make about $180,000 a year, but they've got $45,000 in credit card debt, 0 invested, and no savings. And here's the part that really stood out to me. They didn't buy the house because it was a smart financial move. They bought it out of fear. Fear of what could happen under another Trump presidency. So they're now here sitting and asking, what did we just do? Honestly, I'm wondering the same thing. You recently got my new book Money for Couples. And as you started talking about money, you said it was not going well. What happened?

[Sunny]

When we talk about money, it can go really good, can go really bad. There's no in between. So I told her about the book and how one of the things I wanted to incorporate was like monthly meetings. We like to eat out and so we decided to use it as our monthly date. I got very frustrated the way I felt like Jasmine was answering some of the questions in the book, and. And her response was, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And I got frustrated in the restaurant, and it got really hostile. And then dinner just ended early, and we left on a quiet note.

[Ramit Sethi]

Money for couples, the nightmare. Okay, Jasmine, would you agree with how Sunny describes it?

[Jasmine]

I will. I think one of the examples in the book was plan your perfect vacation. And in your book, it was telling us to be, like, very specific.

[Sunny]

So.

[Jasmine]

So I'm thinking of, like, my favorite perfect vacation. So I guess mine wasn't as detailed as it was supposed to be. It was like, I want to be on a beach. He's like, okay, what beach? I did respond, I don't know, because I don't know that many beaches. And then he was like, so what are we doing at the beach? Relaxing on the boat. What kind of boat? A yacht. What kind of yacht? I don't know. Like, he wanted me to be very specific. And it wasn't. I don't know, because I don't want to do this exercise. It was, I don't know, because I legitimately have never thought about it. So he was getting a bit frustrated.

[Ramit Sethi]

With me and Sunny, when you were asking these questions, what kind of beach, what kind of boat, etc. What was going through your head?

[Sunny]

We got to figure this out because all through this process, we were going through the home buying process. And so for me, I was like, I want to get through these books because I really want to implement this stuff and get it set up for by the time that first mortgage comes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, should we look at the numbers?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Sunny]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. What was it like doing this conscious spending plan together?

[Sunny]

It was actually really good. It feels good to say that too, because our past conversations with money, once we finished it, though, I think we both were in shock. For me, it was more seeing the difference on paper. And also, this was our first time really digging into, like, each other's real numbers.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love the honesty. You know, a lot of people think that couples talk substantively about money when it comes to their wedding. They don't. They literally pick a number, and that's pretty much the extent of how they do it. They don't sit down and open up their income and debt. And what about this? And I put this money in a savings account. It doesn't happen. It doesn't even happen for A house sometimes, but often not. So you did the CSP had a positive time. I love that. Let's take a look. Sunny, can you read the words in bold and then the full number next to it for this entire net worth?

[Sunny]

Box assets, 566,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Investments, zero. Okay.

[Sunny]

Savings, 3,250. Debt, $578,775.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Sunny]

Total net worth, negative 9,525.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does it mean that you're negative $9,000 net worth?

[Jasmine]

I know negative is not good.

[Sunny]

We owe more than we are.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's true worth, I guess. You know, a lot of people do. Did you know that?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Jasmine]

No, I didn't know that.

[Ramit Sethi]

A lot of people owe more than they have. Sometimes it's because when you first buy a house, it's kind of like driving a car off the lot. Your car is worth less than you paid for it instant you drive off the lot. Have we all heard that expression before?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Same thing with a house. When you buy a house, a lot of people have like 20, 30, 50 or thousand or more of closing costs and all kinds of escrows and stuff like that. If you were to try to turn around and sell it the next day, they would lose money. That's just a very simplified example of why people might have a negative net worth. Then people have student loans. Sometimes they have 25, 50, 100, 200k of student loans. That puts them at negative. But that doesn't mean you're a good or bad person. So you all have a negative net worth. But I notice a couple things. Number one, I notice you're young. So if you were 58 and this were the case, this would be alarming. You're both, what, 27. Correct.

[Jasmine]

You just turned 28.

[Sunny]

28 on Saturday.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, great. So that's good. 20s. We got time to do a lot of things. You have more debt than your mortgage. You mentioned student loans and credit card debt. And then you have no investments and low savings, which to me is a big problem. We're going to tackle that as well. So what I'm telling you is I'm not immediately alarmed by this number, but I'm curious. Okay, let's keep working our way down this time. Jasmine, I'm going to ask you, what is the combined gross monthly income number?

[Jasmine]

$14,948.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, great. So that's per month. So your gross combined annual income is $179,000 a year. Who knew that number? Put your hand up if you knew that number. Both knew that number. Whoa. Hey, good job. That's very impressive. So you're basically making $180,000 a year. What do you guys think about that?

[Jasmine]

I mean, that's pretty good.

[Ramit Sethi]

Outstanding. 180 in your 20s?

[Jasmine]

In our 20s, yes. That's good.

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is a big deal. $180,000 combined income, and you're not even 30. You just married. That is really impressive. Fantastic work. I want to hear about this purchase. How did this happen where you said this wasn't even on your 10 year, one year plan. Walk me through it.

[Sunny]

Well, I brought it up to her about buying a house kind of when the political climate changed, because I started to do some research and just things that were happening in the world, and I knew how important it would be for a family like ours to really own some property moving forward in the future.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean, a family like yours?

[Sunny]

One being multiracial. I'm black. She's mixed also, with me being trans, I just thought it was really important for us to have something, at least property, that was ours. I mean, I guess I was predicting of what the future could hold depending on at the time who was gonna win presidency. And kind of what I predicted kind of happened in the sense of, like, all the EO orders and things like that changing. I just figured if life or the future goes one way, I at least need to have something like this, where if I need cash on hand, equity, anything, I have it. If something happens to me, she's going to be okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I just want to jump in quickly to make it very clear that when Sunny said, I just thought it was important for us to own something, he wasn't being dramatic. For people of color and the LGBTQ community, fear of losing rights or even personal safety is very real. Many people don't know, but in recent American history, there was something called redlining, which meant many, many communities across the country explicitly would not allow people of color to. To buy houses there. And they used the power of law to keep people of color out of neighborhoods. There was even a recent New York Times article on racial covenants in contracts that still exist, saying, you are not allowed to sell this to a black person. This is recent American history. You can imagine what happens to communities. For example, people in the black community who have been told and seen their own parents and grandparents having housing stripped away from them, while other people built massive wealth on single family homes. This is why money is political. This is why we have to understand that your experience with money and housing is probably quite different than Other people's experience with it. So, yes, there is a reason that people feel drawn to own something, especially when your identity has been politicized. But I have to say, just because you are scared or just because you had a message passed down generation after generation doesn't mean the math works. Because once you've signed the papers, the bills come and they don't stop coming. Okay, so you brought this up with Jasmine and then Jasmine. What was your reaction?

[Jasmine]

I said, okay, let's go look at some houses. I did not think in the beginning that we would be here. I did think that we was just looking at open houses for fun.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's like a classic American pastime is to go to open houses on a Saturday. And then you're like, who lives in here? And like, ugh, they have the worst taste, all that stuff. All right, how much was the house?

[Sunny]

It was 526.

[Ramit Sethi]

526. All right, cool. Did you run your numbers before you bought the house, did you know how much you could afford?

[Sunny]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, first of all, so rare. Okay, now I got to know. What did you run? Tell me how you ran those numbers.

[Sunny]

Well, I ran it with the lender.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, hold on. I just. Wait, hold on, hold on. I just need to just. I want to rewind and enjoy the three seconds of pleasure I had in my life for once before it got abruptly erased from me. Ran it with the lender. What the lender tell you? Oh, you could spend 60%, no problem. What they say?

[Sunny]

Oh, wait, I misunderstood. When you ask for numbers, did you mean the pre approval numbers or how.

[Ramit Sethi]

Much could you afford?

[Sunny]

Oh, oh, oh. I ran that by myself.

[Ramit Sethi]

You did?

[Sunny]

Using your book. How I did that, I'm going to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have a heart attack right now. Listen, if I die on this podcast to my team who's monitoring it, just tell everybody I went well, okay? It was a great time. If and when I prematurely die, I want to die discussing mortgage rates with a couple. That's how I want to go. Okay. I don't know why I'm looking upwards. I'm definitely going to hell one day. All right, whatever. Okay, so you ran the numbers yourself using my book. I'm very proud of you. And what did those numbers tell you? How much could you afford?

[Sunny]

4,000Amonth. What I could afford for a home was like 850.

[Ramit Sethi]

$850,000.

[Sunny]

And that was the same.

[Ramit Sethi]

The lender said, how much is your income?

[Sunny]

So it's 147. But I have my business stuff too.

[Ramit Sethi]

You make 147 a year. And they told you you could pay 850 for a house. Okay, Attention all lenders in America. You mother. First of all, I have a couple of things to say. You. I'm talking to all the mortgage professionals in America, burdening young people, telling them they can spend. What is that, Six times their income?

[Jasmine]

House.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what happens? You get your stupid goddamn commission, and then you leave these young couples house poor. Hold on, I'm sweating already. We're like, literally, we're less than 10 minutes into this conversation and I'm sweating. Okay, so they told you 850 and did you agree with them? No. Did you have a house price that you could afford before you went out looking at houses?

[Sunny]

Yeah, I didn't want to go over 35amonth.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay, you did it by monthly payment. Did you have a house price, like nothing over 400k or. Oh, no, I gotta call bullshit here. Sonny claims to have run the numbers using my method, but, no, he didn't. First off, don't ask your realtor, your mortgage lender, to run your calculations for you. What do you think they're going to tell you? Oh, it's amazing. I ran these calculations and magically you can afford to buy a house. In fact, let me give you triple the amount you thought so. That you are now indebted with years and years and decades of interest. What a shock. I didn't know my mortgage lender would say I could buy a house so crazy. What's your commission? Listen, you don't ask the person at Supercuts to do spinal surgery, and you never ask your realtor for financial advice. As a prospective homeowner, you want to look at tco, the total cost of ownership. A lot of you have no idea that the house you're buying for $300,000 is actually going to cost you over $600,000. When you add in all the costs, you have no idea because you never ran a single calculation. Oh, and also, what about accounting for repairs, furniture, maintenance, transaction costs, and on and on and on. When these costs hit, and they will, it's going to feel like you're hemorrhaging money. I don't like surprises with my money. The only kind of surprise I like is opening up a birthday card and getting a $20 bill. Okay? That's it. If I'm getting a surprise, it's going to be on the upside, not the downside. This is how people trap themselves in a cycle of debt, especially when they are young. They buy too much house, they never ran a single calculation and if anything they asked their realtor or mortgage lender, hey, what do you think? You need to be smarter than this for the biggest purchase of your life. You should be fluent in how the numbers work. This is why I'm always talking about homeownership in the us. It's not just so that I get some freaks on Twitter liking my posts and retweeting it. The reason I talk about housing is that housing is a single biggest purchase you will ever make and sometimes it's not the best financial decision. All I'm asking is for you to really run the numbers to make sure that you can afford the housing that you might buy. I noticed this interesting phenomenon in the gym where people start coming to the gym in January for New Year, new you, and in June, right when summer's around the corner. And I love people taking any excuse to get more fit or to start managing their money. But I also noticed that the people who are most successful are doing things way before they need to. That's one of the key differentiators of living a rich life. Planning for something before you need to. Now. That's true with your fitness, that's true with your money. That's certainly true for your taxes. Now that tax season is behind us, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for an extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. That's why I've partnered with Gilt, the sponsor of this episode, and the team I trust to help you take a more proactive approach to your taxes. G isn't just another CPA firm. They actually helped a colleague of mine completely rethink his personal and business tax plan, not just file it. Now he's saving way more than he spends on tax prep and they helped him leverage powerful credits and unlock smarter deductions. With Gael, you get a proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. And their team helps with everything from credits and deductions to structuring your business the right way. They have a tech platform where you can upload your documents, tag them by year and see exactly when your tax team has reviewed each file. 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Just search for your name and the city you live in and you will see you don't need to make it easier for for hackers and scammers to get your information. Now I gotta tell you, protecting my personal information is important to me. Which is why I personally pay for a service called Delete Me. This episode's sponsor, Delete Me Experts search for and start removing your personal information. And in seven days you'll receive a detailed DeleteMe report with what they found so far. Then they continue to scan and remove your personal information regularly or all year long. This is a service I personally pay for and I regularly recommend it to my friends and family. So if you want to get your personal information removed from search results on the web, go to joindeleteme.com ramit for 20% off a plan for you or your entire family. Again, that's joindelete me.com Ramit R A M I T. All right, so you went out shopping, you got the house all right? Fine. How's the house?

[Jasmine]

It's amazing.

[Sunny]

Nice.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, that's cool. How does it feel now that you own a house?

[Sunny]

I feel good, but I am nervous.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else do you feel?

[Sunny]

Excited, Real curious and anxious.

[Ramit Sethi]

Anxious, okay. Anxious about what?

[Sunny]

Messing something up.

[Ramit Sethi]

How about you, Jasmine? How do you feel now that you are a homeowner?

[Jasmine]

I'm excited. I'm very eager to learn more about everything that comes with being a homeowner. And I'm interested to see how this is going to reflect our relationship. I feel like me and Sunny, we have been very live in the moment type of people for our first few years together when we just hit our one year of marriage. I think life just kind of came very quickly in this one year of marriage. Right now, it's all cool. I think it might change once our bills start coming in and we see those numbers and we'll see how each one of us react.

[Sunny]

I understand where she's coming from. I don't get scared in that sense because it's not like it's our first time living together. Like we've had the same bills. The only bill that changes and went from rent to mortgage.

[Ramit Sethi]

You guys paying the same amount for your total cost of ownership versus what you were paying to rent?

[Jasmine]

No, we're paying more than what we was to rent.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Can you afford it?

[Sunny]

I'll say yes. She'll probably say no.

[Jasmine]

Can we afford it together? Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Y' all are married. Is there any other way?

[Jasmine]

No, there is not. I think my thing is I worry God forbid anything happens to him and his finances leaning back on me, we gonna fall.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what does that feel like to you?

[Jasmine]

Scary.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm going to go over the four key numbers in your CSP.

[Sunny]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fixed costs are at 71%, investments are at zero. Savings are at 11% and guilt free spending is at 18%. Let's talk about fixed costs. What do you think about that number? 71%.

[Sunny]

It's high.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. What should it be?

[Sunny]

Under 60.

[Ramit Sethi]

Under 50 to 60 is typically where I like to see it. With an income like that, I like to see it at the lower end because that's a high income for a young couple that typically does not have all the fixed expenses that an older couple might have. Investments are at zero. Why?

[Sunny]

I really never knew about investments. Like I knew people were saying, like, get into your 401k, especially if your company matches.

[Jasmine]

Never really had anyone explain it to me.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, we are the products of who we were raised by and and around and like if you don't have people around you who are talking about 401ks, probably not going to get a 401k for a long time. Of course there's YouTube and there's my book at the library. And yes, there's a lot of information out there. I agree it can be done. But I think we should also acknowledge that if you just didn't grow up around anyone talking about it, it's probably not a factor of your reality. If you didn't grow up learning how to negotiate your salary, probably not negotiating your salary. My dad had me opening up investment accounts at age 14. I was probably going to invest. That's because that's how I grew up. And so I think we need to acknowledge the advantages that were given or not given. They make a lasting impact. With that said, you two are a little too smart to not be investing. What do you think about that? I can agree the old nobody told me while True. Kind of wears a little thin when you're making $180,000. You own a house in your 20s and you're sophisticated enough to be listening to my podcast and reading all my stuff. Kind of doesn't really ring true. What do you say?

[Sunny]

I don't know where to. How to get started.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on a second. No, let me pick from the multiple editions of my book. Chapter three. What does this say on screen right here? What does that say? What does it. Read that out loud.

[Sunny]

Get ready to invest.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's I will teach you to be rich. The 10 year updated edition.

[Sunny]

All right. I guess I'm scared of doing something wrong and not being able to come back from it.

[Ramit Sethi]

What might go wrong that you can't come back from?

[Sunny]

I can, like, lose my money in investing.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else?

[Sunny]

I get so deep into it, I don't kind of, like, know when to, like, maybe stop. And then I'm in a bigger hole than I need to be.

[Ramit Sethi]

Meaning you put too much money in there, it almost feels like gambling.

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else? If you lost your money, what would it mean to you?

[Sunny]

Like, I'm letting Jasmine down.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that? Because what is your role in this relationship?

[Sunny]

I'm the breadwinner.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think, Jasmine?

[Jasmine]

Yes, you are the breadwinner. You're also the provider.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does that mean?

[Jasmine]

He take care of the major finances, as in the mortgage, our car insurances, our phone bills. He buys a lot of stuff for the both of us. He pushes us to have a better future.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, and Jasmine, if Sunny is the provider, what is your role?

[Jasmine]

I am the natural caretaker. I take care of the house, I take care of us and, like, our self care.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. All right, let's keep working down this csp. I want to point out a couple of things. I see. I see a big disparity in incomes. So on a monthly basis, Sunny is earning 11,200 bucks. Jasmine is earning 3,600 bucks, three and a half times more. Has that caused any conversations in your relationship?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Sunny]

Yes. When we first started dating, I pushed her to kind of figure out what she wanted to do. When we talk about income, I always say, like, I know that you could get a job making the same amount as me, if not more.

[Ramit Sethi]

How does that conversation go?

[Sunny]

At first it was hard because she was shutting me out. I felt like she might have been feeling that I was trying to tell her what to do, but now it's really good because she's, like, looking at going back to school and, like, looking at different jobs. And careers she'll want to pursue.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Jasmine, how about you? What kind of conversations have you had about the disparity in income?

[Jasmine]

Sonny pushes me to be a better version of myself. I have moments where I do get comfortable. He pushed me into doing what I always thought I wanted to do, which was working with animals. So it was very exciting in the beginning. After being in it for a few years, though, I realized it's not going to be enough money for me for the lifestyle that I want to live.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ooh, what lifestyle is that?

[Jasmine]

I want to travel. I wanted to go shopping. I want to build memories. I want to start a family. I want to be a half at home, stay at home wife.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does that mean? Half stay at home? What does that mean?

[Jasmine]

He has this vision of me being a stay at home wife. I don't have anyone in my life that is a full time stay at home to actually relate that to. So I just thought that was very boring. I don't want to be at home all day with the kids, cooking and cleaning. I do enjoy my job, but that passion I thought I once had is not there. So I'm kind of like, stuck now on trying to figure out what I want to do. And it's kind of hard because he always tell me, like, well, what are you good at? What's your passion? I can say I'm good at a lot of things, but to know what I want to do in life, I'm not passionate about anything right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

You see the similarities between the conversations about what type of beach would you like to and what are you good at?

[Jasmine]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Jasmine is saying no. Sonny is nodding his head yes. Wow, this is interesting. Sonny, what do you see?

[Sunny]

A lot of, like, uncertainty.

[Jasmine]

I can agree with that.

[Ramit Sethi]

What I see is Sonny probably has some type of vision of his career, money, et cetera. You're kind of on this path, and maybe it seems, from what you're telling me, maybe Jasmine's not. And you ask her questions like, hey, what beach? What yacht? What job? What are you passionate about? And maybe that's not how Jasmine thinks. Jasmine, it seems like you're kind of like, whoa. Like, I don't know. I know that I don't want to do the vet thing and I know that I don't want to do this, but I don't know. Do you see the similarities in the two types of conversations? What Jasmine's doing right now is something that I see all the time. She's not just confused. She's avoiding for a lot of Us. When something feels uncomfortable or risky, we freeze. We say, I'll deal with it later. Or I just need to think about it. I need to figure it out. But that's not forward movement, that's avoiding. Think about when you have done that in your life, maybe with a career decision. Oh, I don't like my boss. I'm kind of stuck. What am I supposed to do? I'll freeze. I'll wait. I need to figure things out. I'm in a bad relationship. I don't know, I'm not happy. But once in a while, he or she takes me out to ice cream. Uh, it's been that way for nine and a half years. I just need to see what happens. We all do this and it often works because doing nothing or waiting often feels safer than making the wrong choice. The problem is when you avoid making decisions, you stay stuck. I have to say, one of the most frustrating things is having a friend who is in a bad situation. Could be career, financial, relational. And every time you see them, they're talking about how bad it is, but they're not actually making any changes. You know what I'm talking about. If you've heard that friend, now take a look inside. How many of us have done this with something in our own life? I have. I'm putting my hand up right now because I know I've done it. I'm probably doing it right now. We all have something in our lives where we have delayed, equivocated, waited. With Jasmine, I want to help her stop coasting and start making real progress. But first we need to figure out what's really holding her back. And that is exactly where we are headed right after this break. What normally happens when an older generation dies? A lot of times they leave a house. Now imagine you're long gone and your kids have this one house. Two of them want to sell it, one of them wants to keep it. What's going to happen? You have to think about these things. And that's one of the reasons you need a will. With trust and will, you can create and manage a custom estate plan from the comfort of your home. Go to trustandwill.com ramit and get 20% off plus free shipping. My co worker recently created a will for her family on trust and will. And here's what she told me. Getting started was incredibly easy. I just followed their prompt. I provided the needed info about my beneficiaries, assets and personal preferences. In less than an hour, I had a will, power of attorney, documents, last will and testament and HIPAA authorizations, all of which I easily downloaded and I could have them executed or checked by a full for hire attorney if I want it. Now I personally used an attorney for my own estate plan, but not everyone has access to a great estate attorney, so if that's you, Trust and Will might be a great option because they make estate planning accessible and affordable. Each will or trust is state specific, legally valid and customized to your needs. Their simple step by step process guides you from start to finish, one question at a time and Trust and Will has an overall rating of Excellent with thousands of five star reviews on trustpilot. Let Trust and Will uncomplicate the process for you. Protect what matters most in [e-mail] Ramit and get 20% off plus free shipping. That's 20% off and free [e-mail] SL Ramit there are a few things I refuse to do in my rich life bank with Wells Fargo or Bank of America. No thank you. Step foot in a Home Depot? No thanks. I don't want to smell that smell. I smelled it when I was seven years old. I'm good and spend hours on the phone trying to find an in network Dr. Only to be told that their next appointment is seven weeks from now. If you are like me and you want to avoid being on hold and actually get seen by a doctor this week, check out ZocDoc, the sponsor of this week's episode. ZocDoc is a free app and website where you can search and compare high quality in network doctors and click to instantly book an appointment. Book in network appointments with more than 100,000 doctors across every specialty from mental health to dental health, primary care to urgent care and more. Using the app you can filter for doctors who take your insurance. They're located nearby and they are highly rated by verified patients. And your appointments happen fast, typically within 24 to 72 hours of booking. They even have same day appointments in some cases. If I needed a doctor today, this is what I would use. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc do.com ramit to find and instantly book a top rated doctor today. That's z o c doc.comit zocdoc.comit what do you think's really going on when you have these conversations? What are you saying Sunny that you're not saying out loud?

[Sunny]

I mean sometimes I wish she would see like herself how I see her and like she wouldn't beat herself up so much to the point she doesn't want to try anything. I can understand that not knowing what you want to do at times can be overwhelming, But I think that giving something a try will start to help just broaden that overwhelmingness.

[Jasmine]

I don't think it's the overwhelmingness of it. I do know I struggle with change, so starting over is pretty scary, But I get through it. I know that you can see the potential in me and everything. I see it too. But then I think of the ways that we came up. You had a lot of things given to you easily. You're like, I know you can. It's just harder for me because I didn't have certain access in life to certain things, like education and things like that versus how you did. And I feel like if you put yourself in my shoes and just know, like, where I came from, it's a little harder to just jump in and do it when you have no, like, guide or anything. So I will say I have gotten better. And I'm not doing this just to shut you up either. I am doing it because now I am ready. But I feel like you want me to be ready when you want me to be ready. You're speeding through life right now, and I'm just enjoying the moment. I just want to be alive and enjoy life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I ask a little bit more about how you both grew up with money? Jasmine, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[Jasmine]

You can't get that. I don't have any money. Not now, maybe later.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do they mean by that, not now, maybe later?

[Jasmine]

I think they just wanted me to shut up, honestly. But not, like, tell me what. No, completely in that moment.

[Ramit Sethi]

And how would you characterize your family socioeconomically? Were you middle class, upper middle class, lower middle class? How would you describe it?

[Jasmine]

Probably middle class. I would say, okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what happened as you got older when it came to money in your family?

[Jasmine]

My mother got a new husband, and he was more financially stable. At least outside looking in, he had money. So our family kind of changed in a way in which they start wearing, like, name brands.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you like that?

[Jasmine]

I did enjoy it. I feel like I got sucked into a lifestyle that I didn't understand nor didn't really want.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so when you met Sunny, how would you describe your relationship with money?

[Jasmine]

Money was coming and going for me. I was very wasteful of money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have the, like, fine tastes?

[Jasmine]

I would say yes, a little bit.

[Ramit Sethi]

Come. Sunny's nodding his head like he's about to Fall off right now, Sonny, Speak up.

[Sunny]

He likes to eat. And at that time, we were going to some really nice places to be.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, what? Give me an example of a meal that you might have.

[Jasmine]

Ribeye, steak, Mac and cheese, a lot of drinks.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so how much would it cost?

[Jasmine]

$250.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, I. I totally don't believe you. So we're talking 350 at least? Yes, maybe more. Let's just round up, because I always prefer to be conservative on that. 400 bucks for a meal. Okay, fine. How often?

[Jasmine]

Once every other month. But, like, a regular, like, say, if he was going to, like, Outbacks or something, we'll probably spend about 200.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I like how the way you just said it was like. Oh, like 400 was, like, almost never. Like, every other month. And then also we'd go to Outback, which was like, you know, 200 plus, like. Yeah. Anyway, whatever. This is why we track a few key items. For most people, eating out is a highly variable and material expense. A lot of times people think they eat out two times a week. Whatever number they think, you can safely triple that number, and that is how much they actually eat out per week. Okay, so, Jasmine, you grew up like that. Sonny, how about you? How'd you grow up with money? What do you remember your family saying about it when you were young?

[Sunny]

On one side, it was like, ask your mom. You don't need that. Not right now. And then on the other side, it was like, yeah, put it in the cart.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who was telling you this?

[Sunny]

So my dad's telling me the first one, and my mom's the second one.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, your dad's saying no, and your mom is saying yes. Wow. Same pattern for your entire childhood.

[Sunny]

Oh, yeah. So even to this day, wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

How are they with money?

[Sunny]

I don't know. My dad, he's more frugal than my mom is. Her mindset is, make sure your savings is stacked. Don't worry about nothing else.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any similarities between the dynamic your parents had and the dynamic between Sunny and Jasmine?

[Sunny]

Sporadically, yes. Like, at one moment, I'll be very frugal and not want to send anything. And then the next I'll be like, all right, babe, let's go to Walmart and spend 500. I don't care.

[Ramit Sethi]

So, Sunny, when you say, like, want to go to Walmart, what do you have in mind?

[Sunny]

Candy.

[Ramit Sethi]

Candy? Which candy?

[Sunny]

KitKat and Skittles.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Skittles are good. I'll give you that. That's pretty good, actually. I feel like no one Eats Skittles these days anymore. All right, considering that, Sunny, you make like three and a half times more than Jasmine. Jasmine, do you ever have to ask Sunny for money?

[Jasmine]

Yes, recently I have.

[Ramit Sethi]

And how do you feel asking for money?

[Jasmine]

I hate it with a passion.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Jasmine]

Because growing up, every time I've ever asked for anything, I always told no. So I don't like to be rejected. And when it comes to money, I was used to asking my parents for money. I'm not used to asking my husband for money, but it's like trying to understand, like, we're married, so it's our money, so it's just. Just getting used to.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's the time in the last, I don't know, three, six months where you called him and you asked for money? What was it for?

[Jasmine]

It was just yesterday for our dog food. I said, can I use your card to pay for ghost food? Because I don't get paid till Friday and he's running really low.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so what do you say?

[Jasmine]

He said yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Any bad feelings about asking him for his card?

[Jasmine]

No, not when it comes to, like, our pets. This is our dog and our cat.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's the other example?

[Jasmine]

Say, like, last month, But I was a little depressed. He was like, well, what are you depressed about? So I need my hair done. He was like, well, why don't you just ask me to pay to get your hair done? I'm like, because that's something that I've always paid for my hair to get done. I've always paid for my nails to get done. Sometimes it just feels good taking care of myself. And I think it's me knowing how much he pays for already. Like, the little things. I feel like, all right, Jaz, you can do that. So, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You don't ask.

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

As a married couple, are your finances combined or not?

[Sunny]

They're not combined.

[Jasmine]

They're not combined.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Sunny]

How come she's waiting on me to take the lead to do it and I haven't done it? Because at first I didn't know how, and then also waiting to get into the house. I was waiting for that. So now that we're in the house, I want to, like, take those steps to combine the income. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's just a matter of just, now that you got the house, you're going to do it.

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Sunny, any reservations about the way that Jasmine treats money?

[Sunny]

A little bit. Only. Really? When she wants to put stuff on a payment plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like what?

[Sunny]

Anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

What the. The only thing I put on a payment plan would be a House, maybe a car. What do you mean?

[Sunny]

So in the house? Right. We need the living room, the dining room set, washer and dryer. And she's like, we can get it. We'll put on a payment plan. And I'm like, let's save. So we waited. We're doing room by one room, but the washer and dryer was the most recent thing. And she's like, I need my washer and dryer as soon as we move in. And I'm like, well, we can go wash at my mom's house or my sister's house.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have a washer and dryer right now?

[Jasmine]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

No. All right, when are you going to get it?

[Sunny]

Actually this week.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay. And how are you going to pay for it?

[Sunny]

We got taxes back.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much?

[Sunny]

4900 and something.

[Ramit Sethi]

And how much is your washer dryer going to cost?

[Jasmine]

About from 12 to 1600.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What are you going to do with the rest of the money?

[Sunny]

1,000 is going into our savings, A thousand is going back to my business and then we're going to split the remaining guilt free.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, I think I'm understanding better. What's going on? Can we talk debt? So you have $579,000 of debt. Can you break that down for me?

[Sunny]

Yeah. The house is 519, my car is 3k, I have 300 to 400 of credit card debt and then I have 17k in student loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, fine. Jasmine, any debt from you?

[Jasmine]

My car loan was about 17,500, my credit card debt about 12k, my teeth 6k Potham salary, school, 2500.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's all for me, basically 60k of debt, approximately.

[Sunny]

That sounds right, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

When's the debt going to be paid off?

[Sunny]

We put a goal by 30.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, wait, that's pretty soon, right?

[Sunny]

Well, everything but the house, obviously.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, how are you going to do that?

[Sunny]

This is where conversations get tricky. So I have a plan. And the plan goes back to pushing Jasmine into figuring out what she wants to do, which could lead to more income.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Sunny]

And then I have a plan for myself and my business where my business is bringing in more income and also getting a raise at my job.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Jasmine, what do you think?

[Jasmine]

I think realistically for me as paying off that debt at least within the next five years, not just two years. I do see myself getting a larger income with a new job. As of right now, where I'm at, that's not going to come like tomorrow. So I like to give myself some like leeway.

[Ramit Sethi]

You find Yourself giving yourself leeway a lot?

[Jasmine]

Yeah, I do. Maybe because I'm scared. Scared of the disappointment.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, I think that's true. What else?

[Jasmine]

Things happen in the world and that's okay. It'll happen when it happens.

[Ramit Sethi]

There's a. A bit of a lack of agency, like the world is going to happen and I don't want to set too ambitious of a goal because if I don't hit it then I might be disappointed. Jasmine, am I translating this correctly?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Honestly, if that is the approach, then I'm not going to change you. But you told me a little while ago that you have an ambitious goal for life. You want to travel, you want to have a family, you want to do this part time stay at home thing. Can't live that life if you don't have agency in control. So what would you like to do?

[Jasmine]

I would like to set myself up for that life that I want. That I want for the both of us. That we both want.

[Ramit Sethi]

How come you haven't done it already?

[Jasmine]

I think I just get distracted with everything else that's going on. I get comfortable. I have my moments where I hate my job, moments where I love it, and then moments where Sunny is providing a lot. I guess I'm just scared to start something and I finish it because I have a history of starting stuff and not finishing it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Better not start it at all then, huh? Yeah, I said that a little sarcastically, but I don't think you took it sarcastically.

[Jasmine]

I didn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

The point when I talk about money is not to simply make myself feel better. The point is what do I want in my rich life and then what am I willing to do to get there? You guys know what you want for your rich life? The house was the big one, right?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

How will that house affect your finances?

[Sunny]

I think the first couple months for me getting used to the new payments will be a little rocky.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much did you use to pay for rent?

[Sunny]

21.

[Ramit Sethi]

21. And you're paying at least 3,500amonth? Probably more like 5,000amonth when we include the new furniture and appliances and all kinds of maintenance and stuff. Spread that out. So you basically doubled your expenses on housing. Would you agree?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you guys double your income?

[Sunny]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you cut your expenses in half?

[Sunny]

I'm going to have to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, you are going to have to or both of you are going to have.

[Sunny]

But we are going to have to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, where'd that come from?

[Sunny]

I. I'm just so used to just.

[Ramit Sethi]

Paying everything and Sunny, do you see how, in part, that is contributing to this dynamic that's happening with money.

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you see?

[Sunny]

I'll take more of the conversation when it gets to the money of, like, actual bill paying stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else?

[Sunny]

She gets quiet and you don't want.

[Ramit Sethi]

Her to be quiet or uncomfortable. So I'll take care of it. It's fine.

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Then once in a while you send mixed messages. Let's go to Walmart and get a bunch of candy and stuff. Which implies that you have a ton of extra discretionary money. Right. But yes, you don't. And also, Jasmine, I noticed that you said, like, hey, two years is like, maybe too strict. Maybe five is better. Now listen, I don't mind if you came to me, Jasmine, and said I can't do it in two, but I ran the calculations and I can do it in five years. Here's the exact plan I have for five years. I don't mind that. I really don't. But I don't think you have that plan. I think you basically just kicked a can down the road the same way. Your parents didn't want to tell you. No. What'd they say?

[Jasmine]

Maybe later.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that not exactly what you just said to me? Yeah, it doesn't feel good to be the recipient of that. You might as well have preferred your parents just say, no, we're not getting those chips at least. I know. Just be honest with me. But you're not even being honest with me. You're not even being honest with yourself. So you guys want to go through the numbers and really take a look at this?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. If you make no changes today, what will happen?

[Sunny]

We're not going to be able to really do what we want.

[Jasmine]

We're not going to be able to expand our family because that's the next big goal that we want to do.

[Sunny]

And travel as much as we want to.

[Ramit Sethi]

What? Travel? You have $3,000 in savings. You have two weeks of emergency fund. There's no traveling. What I'm trying to do is to show you guys that if we want to play at this level when it comes to money, we have to really take it seriously. Like, I don't mind that you spend money eating out. That's fine. But you make $180,000 a year. Like, is this it? You're going to be living like this for the next 30 years? Do you guys want more than that? Right?

[Sunny]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's break it down. So right now your fixed costs are at 71%. Your housing is 36%. You know what that number should ideally be no. 28% or less. So that means your housing is expensive relative to your income. Now that's what I mean by running your numbers. Had you run the numbers before, you would have known that. Now we can't change it. You got the house. Okay. But what that means is that the rest of your expenses, you're going to have less money to spend. So let's take a quick look here. Debt payments at 1288. All right, so Jasmine, when will your debt be paid off? Do you know?

[Jasmine]

It will be within a year.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about the rest?

[Jasmine]

The rest is mostly like my automatic credit card bills. I'm not quite sure.

[Sunny]

I think because we never really looked at it in this way like we looked at it when we filled out the spreadsheet. Yeah, we were surprised. We were shocked.

[Ramit Sethi]

What'd you do about it?

[Sunny]

We did start looking at car insurance and how to make that cheaper.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you change it?

[Sunny]

We're in the process of changing it.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much are you going to save?

[Sunny]

$115.

[Ramit Sethi]

Per month?

[Sunny]

Per month?

[Jasmine]

Per month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, that's good. Okay, take the win. Good job. I'm impressed. Okay, that's good. What else did you do?

[Sunny]

I figured out how I can pay my car off by July.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, how's that?

[Sunny]

So I'm getting a client that will be paying me a big chunk. So I'm going to use the money that I would essentially use as my paycheck for my business to pay my car off.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, fine. Jasmine, what about you?

[Jasmine]

I haven't did anything besides apply to college, which I feel like I'm applying to more debt. But in order to get to where I want to be, I have to take a step somewhere.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so you have to take a step. I agree. You can't be stuck. Taking a step is a good thing. Are you taking the right step? That's the question.

[Jasmine]

The only step I know as of right now, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not knowing doesn't cut it anymore if you don't know the answer is to find out. So what would you do to find out your options? Because just going to community college is one option. It could be a very fine option, but there's probably 10 other options. How would you find out what they are?

[Jasmine]

I have a pretty strong village. So like my mother in law and my sister in law and Sunny, they all have great educational backgrounds. My sister in law, she is actually in school right now to get her doctorate.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love it. What would you ask them?

[Jasmine]

I have asked them which route would they take? For example, my Sister. She's like, well, what is it you want to do? I'm like, I don't know what I want to do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let me stop you right there. Can't ask a question like that. I'm sure they give you pretty unsatisfying answers. You could do this, you could do that. Start here, try that. Right? That's what they said to you. Yeah, because you ask a bad question, you get a bad answer. If you said to your relative was getting a doctorate, should I get a PhD? Break down three pros and three cons. She'd break it down for you right there. Give you a very specific answer. Amazing answer. In order to ask these questions, you gotta do a little bit of the research yourself. I can show you how, but what I kind of suspect is going on is you're kind of. Imagine you're in a pool. You know, the. One of those pools, you get in a little inner tube and you kind of like float down the little river.

[Sunny]

The lazy river.

[Ramit Sethi]

The lazy river. You just kind of sit there. All right, take me where you will. It kind of seems like that, the way you're talking about your career. I don't know, where should I go? I'll ask a couple people, hey, what should I do? I don't know what to do. What do you think? And it kind of stops working in your late 20s. But like, this is life. And the type of life you've told me you want to lead, you want a family, you want to travel. You all said you wanted to own a house. You can't do that by floating. This is one where you actually have to pick a direction and start swimming. So what does that look like? It looks like you probably going on LinkedIn and looking at people's careers. It looks at you probably buying some books about different career options, looking online and saying, hey, I don't even know where to start. How do I pick a career that makes sense to me? Probably setting up some informational interviews with people. Hey, I'm new to this. I've been doing vet tech work for the last five years. I'm not really feeling it. Here are the things I'm interested in. Here's what I'm not. But I'm not sure I'm open to it. What would you suggest and give me three more people to talk to? Jasmine, have you ever done those things?

[Jasmine]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Jasmine]

I never knew how, so therefore I never did.

[Ramit Sethi]

What would be a different way to say that? A more I'm taking control of my life way?

[Jasmine]

I don't Know how, But I would do my research and find out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And that. That goes for everything. I didn't know how to drive, but I found out I didn't know how to cook this meal. And I found out I didn't know how to find the love of my life. But I found out we all take control of our life in some degree or another. I have found it's a lot more fun to pick a direction and start swimming. And Sunny, I have found also, if you are the partner of that person, sometimes you think you're helping by saving them. But actually, it's not always helping. Can I pause? Jasmine, I'm not sure if I see you crying over there. I just want to check in with you. What's going on?

[Jasmine]

So this is just something that we've talked about, like my life a lot and why I don't do certain things. It's just hard when, like, other people can see your potential, but you can't see your own.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, I agree. How do you react to that?

[Jasmine]

I cry. Then I just kind of, like, sit back and analyze it from outside looking in.

[Ramit Sethi]

You beat yourself up at times.

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you say to yourself?

[Jasmine]

I don't know why Sunny chose me out of everyone.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then Sunny reassures you, I love you, babe. I'm here for you. I know you have the potential.

[Jasmine]

He does. Then I'd be like, well, what if I never do, though? Then what?

[Ramit Sethi]

You talk to a therapist, right?

[Jasmine]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does that help?

[Jasmine]

So far it's been helping.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, good. I'm glad to hear that. That was a big moment for Jasmine. She's starting to realize she's been giving herself too much room to coast. I find this conversation extremely fascinating because sometimes I talk to people who are too hard on themselves. They say things like, I'm not good at math. I'll never have enough. I don't work hard enough, and they beat themselves up. But sometimes I talk to people who are too easy on themselves. Deep down, I think a lot of times we have never met someone who truly pushes themselves. You know, my secret wish is that every single person who wants to make a major change in their life, whether it's changing their finances, their body, their relationship, I wish they could go live with someone who is really good at that and just observe how they live for one week. Can you imagine? There was this article I read, I'll never forget in the New York Times about this male model and what he does on his Saturdays off and the Guy looks incredible. Okay? He's ripped. He looks very. He's a model. And, you know, you kind of look at this picture, you go, genetics. And then on his Saturday, which is his off day from training, he still walks, like, five miles. He's still going for a little casual jog. He's doing this, he's doing that. He's seeing friends. And I'm reading this. I'm exhausted just reading it. I'm going to. Oh, that actually explains so much, because there are clues. If someone's really good at money, they're probably talking about money. If someone is really good at fitness or health, they're probably doing certain things that allow them to look good and feel good. And the same is true with money. And the same is true here. These changes aren't always easy. In fact, in my experience, the most important moments in life are hard. Getting into college was hard. Finding a great job was hard. Defining my rich life and automating my investments was hard. Meeting my wife was hard. But it was worth it. If you never really push yourself, if you never meet someone who pushes themselves and you get genuinely curious, how do you do that? What do you do next? Tell me everything. I want to know the truth. Then you often don't know what it takes to be successful, and oftentimes you end up playing it safe. Playing safe means playing small for a lot of people. We see that here. With Jasmine, that pattern looks like avoidance because deep down, she's afraid of failing. Now, listen, I don't think she needs to make six figures. I don't think that is the definition of success. But right now, her actions don't match the life that she says she wants. So the question I have is, can she shift her mindset and start taking real steps to towards that vision? We're about to find out. This episode is sponsored by leesa, the company that makes the exact mattress I sleep on every night. And I love it. And it makes me wonder, why the hell do so many of my podcast guests have more expensive mattresses than I do. I'll never forget when I was talking to a couple who had $0 in savings, and then they told me they financed a freaking mattress. How much did that mattress cost? $2,200. Is that a lot or a little? What do you think about that number? I think it's very midline. For someone who has to take out a line of credit to get a decent mattress. The mattress that they call midline costs more than the one I sleep on. My mattress is firm, supportive. It Helps me sleep and wake up refreshed. It's not something you need to open up a freaking store credit card for. Leesa has different models depending on how you sleep. Side, sleeper, back sleeper. But what I love is that they are actually supportive. You don't sink. This is a solid mattress. They're designed in the us, Made with high quality materials and built to help you sleep. You get free delivery and a hundred nights to try it at home if it's not right. Returns are easy and your purchase has a purpose. Every year, Lisa donates thousands of mattresses to those in need. Go to Lisa.com for $50 off using my promo code RAMIT exclusive for my listeners. R A M I T that's L e e s a.com promo code ramit for $50 off lisa.com promo code ramit remember, no matter who you are, there's a Lisa just for you. Let me just say a couple of observations. First of all, I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with either of you. You both look at the world a little differently, fair to say, yeah. Do you think that you can look at the world differently and still live a rich life together?

[Jasmine]

I think it's possible.

[Sunny]

I think it's possible if we understand each other like the way we look at the world.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you understand each other overall?

[Sunny]

I think we do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you understand yourself, Jasmine?

[Jasmine]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why have you set the these goals, this kind of life that you want to live with Sunny, but the money part hasn't matched up to it. When I look at the numbers, Jasmine, your fixed costs are at 89%. You're essentially spending more than you make every month. How do you reconcile those two?

[Jasmine]

I bank it on Sunny being able to pick up all the finances of it. I've gotten so comfortable with Sunny taking care of a lot of of things financially.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I have to ask the question, how much of what we are talking about in terms of your financial arrangement is you rescuing Jasmine? Jasmine, what do you think?

[Jasmine]

I think it's more than what he thinks. Without your finances, I would definitely say I wouldn't be where I am today. You do a lot for me. You buy me stuff, feed me, make sure I do my Pilates and stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you need to be rescued, Jasmine?

[Jasmine]

Financially, emotionally? Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Rescued or supported?

[Jasmine]

Mm, when you word it like that, supported.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. To me, a child needs to be rescued. They don't have agency, they don't have control over the world in a way that an adult does. An adult. We all need support in different ways, but I see rescue and support as very different things.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I be pretty direct with you guys? You guys are spending a lot of money. You have no investments and no plan to invest. You have very little savings. I don't believe some of the numbers on the conscious pending plan. You're in your late 20s. You have a chance to really set some amazing foundations going forward, taking advantage of time and letting money grow and be invested and compound. But right now you're spending 71% of your money on fixed costs. That's too high. Your job is to get this number down, get it down to 60%. Your investments are at zero. That's not how you grow and start to let your money work for you. Your Savings are at $1,100, which is good. That's 11%. But I noticed it's only been there for three months. Pretty much around the time where you thought you're going to talk to me. It's good. But let me put it bluntly, Sonny. If you lose your job or your business goes down or something happens, y' all run out of money in a matter of weeks. And then we have the guilt free spending, which, if you tell me this is the accurate number. Okay, I suspect it's higher than that. A lot higher. What do you guys think of my assessment?

[Jasmine]

Pretty accurate.

[Sunny]

I think it's pretty accurate.

[Ramit Sethi]

Which of you read my book?

[Sunny]

I did.

[Ramit Sethi]

You read the book, Sunny, but you didn't set up investments. Why?

[Sunny]

When I read the book, it was about a month and a half before moving. And I read it with the intention to implement it after we were in the house.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so you're ready?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, here's what we're going to do. I want you two to take control, especially Jasmine. The way I look at it is if you're in a relationship, if you're married, you need partnership with money. Partnership does not mean one person does everything. I don't care if you earn more, Sunny. That's fine. But right now you're the one bringing up these questions. And it feels like you're pulling teeth from Jasmine. And Jasmine is leaning back figuratively and literally. And it's not the dynamic where the two of you are like, this is our goal now, let's figure it out together. It's actually like the two of you are dancing around topics and not really being honest with each other. If I were you, Sonny, it would drive me insane that my wife has $12,000 of credit card debt with no real plan to pay it off. I'm not okay with that. I don't think you've actually said that. I haven't heard you say anything about like, hey, this actually isn't okay with me.

[Sunny]

I think she says it more to me than I do to her.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you say that about Jasmine?

[Jasmine]

For example, before we got this house, we did talk about paying off debt first and it just confused me when we started to look for houses that I felt like was out of our range.

[Ramit Sethi]

In all this time, did you run numbers? Did you look at numbers?

[Jasmine]

No, no.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm going to be really direct with you guys. You're not taking this stuff seriously. Like you just made the biggest purchase of your life. You did not look at a number on a computer screen and now you have some tough decisions to make because you bought a house without looking at how it would affect the rest of your finances. That's life, that's consequences. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or bad people. It means you didn't go into this eyes wide open, actually running some calculations and now you're going to have to make some pretty serious changes to your lifestyle as a result. Are you guys ready for that?

[Sunny]

I am. Yeah, we are.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're in control. Your job is to get your fixed costs down to 60%.

[Sunny]

Baby, you're taking control. You're the lead I'm following.

[Jasmine]

Okay, well we've talked about this before. I don't think we need two cars. You work from home and I drive to work. Okay, I guess we can see which one. Figure it out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's not figure it out, let's make a decision. This is the easiest decision you're gonna have to make tonight.

[Jasmine]

It's hard because I'm not understanding like the numbers.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jasmine, from now on, if you don't understand anything about your money, that's totally fine. Some of this stuff nobody taught us. But the answer is. You gotta find the answer from now on. As a 27 year old, that's it. In this relationship, each of you have to find out a way to get the answer. So go ahead, tell me the numbers. We'll figure it out right now.

[Jasmine]

My car. The total loan is like $17,000. Okay, Sonny, how much do you have left on your car to pay off?

[Sunny]

Let's say 35. I don't know what the exact number is. 288amonth.

[Ramit Sethi]

If we just look at the numbers that are really simple here, you owe 17,000, he owes 3,500. There's basically no way that you're going to get more than he is. So knowing those numbers, what does that suggest to you?

[Jasmine]

To sell his car so that we can at least be out of one sooner than later.

[Ramit Sethi]

I agree. Let's take a look at what would happen if we did that. So let's take 288,000 and make it zero. Fair?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so watch what happens to this number right here, this fixed cost number. Watch this. From 71%. What number is it?

[Jasmine]

68.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think about that?

[Jasmine]

It's better than 71.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. It's going the right direction. I agree. Take a round of applause. Good job. It's going in the right direction. We're trying to get this down to 60%. What's next?

[Jasmine]

My debt payments.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you pay it all off?

[Jasmine]

I cannot.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what do you want to do?

[Jasmine]

I'm not sure.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what's next? If you can't tackle debt, what else is available?

[Jasmine]

There's groceries. The subscriptions. We can definitely cut some of that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Some.

[Jasmine]

A lot of it. The thing is, I. I don't know where all the subscriptions come from, honestly. Like, I can look at my bank statement and it'd be like, Apple just took out $2.99. Apple took out $7.49. Apple took out 1599.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jasmine, do you see what's going on here? I call this the innocent doe. The innocent doe goes, I don't know what's happening. I have no idea what happened with this debt. What happened? I don't know where the subscriptions are going. Men and women can both be innocent does and they absolve themselves of all responsibility. Like right now you're saying $400 in subscriptions. I just have no idea. Well, Jasmine, how would you figure it out? If I can be really honest with you, like, this is the easiest thing to solve. I know you can. Why do you think you have not?

[Jasmine]

So I never really just sat down and did it. I just never did.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I ask you guys an honest question right now? Because I feel a little frustrated. Do you guys want to make a change? Because right now I feel like I'm trying to make a change more than you both are. And it's actually, like, not respectful of my time.

[Sunny]

I really do want to make change. I want to cut a lot of stuff off and figure it out. But I understand also what you've been saying the whole time of, like, allowing her to take the initiative and take some lead on this, but I get frustrated Sometimes, because I feel like when I try to do that, nothing gets done, so I just do it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you told her that?

[Sunny]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are the stakes here?

[Sunny]

Our finances, the way we live our life, everything that she enjoys and likes to do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's fast forward a few years. Let's say you have kids. You all talked about that, right? All right, so, Jasmine, you mentioned you're the natural caretaker potentially. You want to be home with the kids at least part time. And let's say you ask Sunny, you know, hey, I'd really like for you to take the kids to the park or pick up around the house. And he just doesn't do it. And then you ask him, like, hey, I. I really want you to do it. This is so frustrating. Why don't you do it? He just doesn't do it. How would you feel about that?

[Jasmine]

I'll get annoyed and irritated and then just do it myself. Yeah, Just kind of just learn to live with it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you ever see this when you were growing up?

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Was it ever resolved? Switched under the rug?

[Jasmine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Jasmine]

Pushed off.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I just tell you right now, there's no way I'm going to allow myself or my partner to be in a relationship where we're just like, oh, oh. And then we just like, brush it under the rug for the next 50 years. From the outside, it looks like Sonny's got everything under control. He's asking questions, he's running the numbers, he's trying to move things forward. But I think what might be also happening here is that he's the enabler. He's trying to rescue this relationship by doing it all by himself. And Jasmine is playing the role of the innocent doe. Who? Me? Little old me. I just don't know. Not maliciously, but because it feels safer to check out, to delegate, than to get it wrong. This is a very common dynamic. I see. One person takes over, the other becomes passive. Now they've established a new dynamic, which means they never actually deal with the real issue. In a healthy relationship, both partners have to be involved with money. That's why I say partners. Not parent, child or active. Inactive partners, teammates. They're both involved, though they may be playing different positions. Now, listen, I don't do this a lot, but sometimes when I'm speaking to a couple, I just get really direct and tell them what I would do. I think I need to get that direct right now. Can I just tell you guys what I would say right now if I were in your situation? If I were Sunny, I might say something like, I know that. I like thinking about money. I like talking about. I know you're not as comfortable with it. And sometimes I think I push you and you retreat and I apologize. I don't want to do that. At the same time, I need a partner with money. I can't do this alone. And I know that in the past you have said, I don't know. It drives me crazy. It's okay not to know, but I need you to find out the answers to it. You're smart, you're capable. And at this point, I can't do this alone. And I can't create the future that we want on my own. I need you to do it with me, Sonny. You ever said something like that?

[Sunny]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, and then what happened?

[Sunny]

It has been multiple conversations of that same scenario. Right. And I think we're taking strides to it, but I feel like we also need to, like, be okay with hurting each other's feelings.

[Ramit Sethi]

Forget about hurting feelings. I haven't heard either of you be really direct once today. Not even close. Sonny, are you willing to go the next 50 years of your life like this?

[Sunny]

No, I'm not. But like my son, solution is always just to make more money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, I've heard that one before. And does it work?

[Sunny]

For the moment.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And what about one day when you get sick or you have two or three kids or your expenses go way up? You just going to keep grinding?

[Sunny]

I mean, I don't want to because I want to also be able to be there and be around.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, can't do it all.

[Sunny]

Yeah. So that's why I need her to make a change in some sense to help so that I can be there.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's not hurting feelings to be direct. It's not hurting feelings to say what you want in a relationship. We're simply saying, like, this is what I need in a relationship. This is my vision. What about you? Maybe our visions are different. Let's find out. But somebody take the first step. Jasmine, what about you? Have you been direct?

[Jasmine]

I would say yes, I have been direct. I'm grateful for the home, don't get me wrong, grateful for it. But I would have been grateful for a OOP de doop to start off with, because this is a big purchase. And he's always like, baby, we got it. I got it. I asked him a hundred times in this process, you sure you have it? You sure you can afford it? And I use the word you because I know what I bring to the table. I know I cannot afford this without you. And I told him that and he just made it clear to me and made me feel comfortable like, no, babe, I got it. I will.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I was like, okay, so sunny, what is that? I'll throw your numbers up right here. You definitely don't got it. Look at this. If I take away her income, you want to see what happens? 94% fixed costs. If her income goes away, you definitely do not got it. How did you make that claim to her?

[Sunny]

Well, I guess when I said like I got it it was more on like focusing on the bigger bills.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's a bigger bill than your mortgage?

[Sunny]

Well, yeah, right.

[Ramit Sethi]

I feel like we're actually getting honest for the first time. What happened with the purchase of the house?

[Sunny]

I thought that I will be able.

[Ramit Sethi]

To handle everything because you are the what provider? The provider. The provider loves to take more and more weight onto their shoulder but they never stop to realize maybe I actually don't need to take all that weight on my shoulder. Maybe I need to actually just improve the way I communicate with my partner. Jasmine's over here saying I don't need this big old house. Why don't we talk about it? Had you guys looked at being open with each other? Hey, what are my expectations here? And Jasmine was like, I actually want to get my nails done once in a while. Straight up direct. Here's what I'm doing in terms of my income. I'm not committing to getting another job for at least three more years. Straight up honest. Then you would have made a different decision. But the fact is you spoke in these phrases. I got it. That actually is not sufficient for a purchase that's going to cost you like over a million dollars when you factor all your expenses. In fact is here we are. So what do we want to do? I'm putting these numbers back up. Either you guys are going to tell me what you want to do or we're going to end up stuck.

[Sunny]

So I'm going to pay off my credit card debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

How?

[Sunny]

Instead of using that guilt free money of the taxes coming this week, I'm paying it off.

[Ramit Sethi]

Nice. I agree. That's a good call. So what will that take your debt payments down to what?

[Sunny]

$0.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what else?

[Sunny]

Our insurance is going to be 224 instead of 321.

[Ramit Sethi]

Good job. Down to 66. Keep going. We're getting close. This is great. Jasmine, your turn.

[Jasmine]

I will have to look at my subscriptions. I can cut it down to under 100.

[Ramit Sethi]

You got therapy included in your subscriptions?

[Sunny]

Yeah. That's where we put it was the.

[Ramit Sethi]

Rest of this stuff, the extra 234.

[Sunny]

My Pilates, Netflix, HBO, Max, Apple Music. I think the biggest cut would be taking her Pilates out of the 159, which is 119.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Sunny]

And then I think we budgeted 180 for therapy.

[Ramit Sethi]

180. Watch. Watch how fast I change this number. This number becomes 180 and this number becomes 30. Done deal. You got your therapy. Keep that 30 bucks. You can have one streaming subscription. Good luck. You all don't have time to watch TV anymore. You have to assemble and disassemble boxes in your new house. All right, one more thing. Big changes we're going to make guilt free spending. I don't think so. So tell me what you want to do for your guilt free spending. It's at 24%. I typically recommend 20 to 35%.

[Jasmine]

You can cut his down to 1,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And what about yours?

[Jasmine]

Incoming down to 150.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. All right. You're at 12% actually. Not bad. You have some money to play with now. Okay, here's how I would approach it. I would definitely start investing a little bit of money. Okay. Anybody get a 401k?

[Sunny]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

You get a 401k match 6%. Okay. Did you set it up?

[Sunny]

Not yet.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh. All right, let's do that. This debt needs to go away yesterday. There's no way you can be making $180,000 and have $10,000 plus in credit cards debt. Can you all pay off that credit card debt faster?

[Jasmine]

Yeah, we can.

[Ramit Sethi]

Two thousand bucks to your credit card. That'll take it down fast. What else? Other kind of income you have coming.

[Sunny]

In my business right now is bringing roughly between 2 to 6k a month.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's pretty good. 2 to 2 to 6k. What the hell. So you're making 2 to 6k extra on top of this. Great. And what do you do with that money?

[Sunny]

Right now it's just sitting in the business account, paying for the business stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

What the. Sonny, listen closely. Do you know how much you're paying in interest for this credit card debt?

[Sunny]

18% APR.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, at least. Meanwhile, you have money just sitting in a savings account. Makes no sense. How much money you have sitting your business checking account?

[Sunny]

Right now? I have 4,500.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I will say, as a business owner, sometimes you make way more than you think. Maybe you take a distribution.

[Sunny]

No, I. I am.

[Ramit Sethi]

So where is that in the csp?

[Sunny]

It would have to go under net monthly income.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, right here. What number should we put.

[Sunny]

I'll just put 2K because it's so everywhere.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's exactly what I would have done. Always be conservative. So we're going to change this 7,000 to 9,000. Watch what happens to the number. 65% drops to 54%. Yo, that's pretty good. That's like really amazing. I'm going to leave it up there for a second, but let me tell you something. Not everyone can just like have money fall down from the sky, okay? 2k net per month, that's like amazing. You all got to make another change in your financial relationship because what just happened is basically Sunny came in and saved the day again. It's not healthy for the two of you. Let me put this way, Sunny gets hit by a bus and then Jasmine, you're left. What are you going to do?

[Jasmine]

I'll probably eat up our savings. I'll probably grab another job like bartending or serving. So I'll work a lot more. So I won't be there physically for him?

[Ramit Sethi]

No. He's dead.

[Sunny]

I'm dead.

[Jasmine]

Oh, you're dead.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh.

[Jasmine]

Oh, baby, I thought you made it okay. No, no, no, you're dead.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm glad that we both emphasized. Let's take a second and I'll take a moment of silence. Sonny, the M35 bus really did him dirty. Okay? He's gone. He's long gone.

[Sunny]

I'm never walk in front of a bus ever again.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. The point I was trying to make, Jasmine, is we can't just have Sunny handling the finances because one day Sunny might not be here. I told my wife that too. I said, I'm going to get hit by a bus one day or whatever. I want you to be knowledgeable about money, capable, competent. Right? That means we all got to talk about this stuff together. You got to know how to make decisions and I want you to make some decisions about this stuff. Okay? I don't mind that the two of you have different incomes. That's totally fine. Nobody is asking you to have the same incomes. Jasmine, I do think that you currently make what, like 44,000 a year?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you want to be able to travel, put kids in activities, things like that?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What would you be willing to do in order for that to be possible?

[Jasmine]

Change my career field.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. You're down to do that?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

If I give you access to my career program, it's called find your dream job, would you go through it and follow the steps in it?

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. It's not easy. You're going to talk to people. You're going to do informational interviews. You're going to learn how people land elite jobs the same way I landed job offers at Google and a hedge fund and all these places. It is exactly how the best jobs are found.

[Jasmine]

I'm willing to do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I will give you access to it. Go through the program. Keep me updated. I have a lot of confidence. I think the biggest thing you're going to find, which is going to surprise you in a positive way, is that you can make more money and actually have a really good quality of life. All right, so here's what we've discovered so far. We've discovered that your CSP can be improved quite a bit, especially when we take into account Sunny's additional income. Sunny, great work on that income. We've discovered that the two of you have the opportunity to work through money much more effectively. I also think that right now, you both are living like day to day, month to month. I don't hear a big vision, and it shows on your CSP because I don't see any savings for the future. I don't see any investments. The way I see it is you're going to live like this for the next 40 years unless you make a change. All right, how are you both feeling right now?

[Jasmine]

I'm feeling a lot of different emotions, but mostly positive, more assertive. It's time for me to make some decisions and stop kind of going with the flow.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that. Assertive. I love that word. I think that's the first time we've heard that today. Okay, great. Sunny, how are you feeling?

[Sunny]

I'm feeling hopeful. We've had conversations like this before. Not in this depth or in this way, but I'm feeling really hopeful about the changes, especially seeing, like, where we need to start to cut stuff. Stuff out and how easy it could be if we just did it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love that. How easy it can be. Sometimes the easiest thing is just to be decisive. It's like we sit down and we go, okay, we're not getting up from this couch until we get this number down to 65% or 62%. Right? Boom. Set some stakes. Okay, great. And what surprised you during this conversation?

[Sunny]

Honestly thinking that we were being direct with each other and we weren't moving forward. We got to be direct to put ourself in a better position.

[Ramit Sethi]

There's this myth that money is just numbers on a spreadsheet. Money is neutral. It's all about what's in cell C42. Have you all been listening to this Freaking podcast. One of the central points of this podcast is that money is far more than numbers alone. Money is emotional. Money is safety. Money is growth. Money is connection. Money is political. And that is true for everyone, and especially you are black, queer, trans, multiracial. Money takes on meanings that you may not understand, but those meanings are nonetheless real. Now, money can be about safety, about feeling like you have some control in a world that often doesn't feel safe to you. Let's translate that to Sunny and Jasmine, who bought their house because they were scared. Candidly, the numbers don't look great, but most financial mistakes can be fixed. The real problem was that they weren't actually talking to each other. Sonny tried to carry everything on his own. Jasmine pulled back. Truthfully, if it wasn't the house, it would have been another financial decision that simply exposed this dynamic. That's why the real issue here isn't just the house, but the financial dynamic between the two of them. Now, in this conversation, for the first time, they actually spoke to each other out loud directly about money and their feelings. Remember that in order to live a rich life, you have to be honest. Honest with yourself and honest with the people around you. Hearing them be honest with each other, I'm confident they can make a change. I gifted Jasmine my dream job program to help her identify a career path that aligns with her rich life. If you are struggling to figure out what your dream job is or you simply want to earn a lot more money for working, you can join my [e-mail] dream job. Now let's see what happened after the cameras stopped rolling.

[Sunny]

Hey you guys.

[Jasmine]

Everybody, it's Jasmine and Sunny. It's been about a month since we met with him, so I would definitely say our first two weeks we got straight to it. We came up with a plan. We took care of my medical bills. I have been in tune with his program finding my dream job. I decided to go to school. So I'll be starting this summer so that I can figure out exactly what it is I want to do career wise and bring more to the table.

[Sunny]

For us as well and for me. We aggressively paid off my credit card debt that I had. I did solidify a contract that is bringing in extra income.

[Ramit Sethi]

Income.

[Sunny]

It will put us at our three months saving mark. And with these changes that we've been making, I know we were like at the 70% when we met with Ramit and we're now at 56. 56.

[Jasmine]

So we're in the right range for supposed to be.

[Sunny]

We also Were able to get Jasmine on my car insurance and also phone bill.

[Jasmine]

Yeah, we realized we were paying for a lot of those extra fees and.

[Sunny]

We also got our subscription. Subscriptions down.

[Jasmine]

We did get our subscriptions down a lot. A lot.

[Sunny]

I also did set up my 401k, which has a 5% match with my job. So I'm in that hitting that ballpark and finally opened my investment stock that I've been procrastinating on doing as well.

[Jasmine]

Within the last week, started reading the book, one chapter a week. So it's been going pretty well.

[Sunny]

I think we've, we've, we've really been cognizant of everything we've done so far. I've seen a big change in our savings and yeah, I'm just excited.

[Jasmine]

I think we basically came to an understanding on what we both want for our future. And with us starting our new chapter in life, trying to start a family and all of that, trying to be set up financially so that we can start. Start a great family and our kids don't have to go through what we went through. So thank you, guys.

[Sunny]

Thank you so much. And we'll keep you posted.

[Jasmine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Bye. If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this [e-mail] apply or you can become a member of my money Coaching program [e-mail] Money coaching. In money Coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call. And I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out money [e-mail] moneycoaching.