216. I track every penny. He gambles. Should I marry him?

Summary

Podcast Title: Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi
Episode: 216. I Track Every Penny. He Gambles. Should I Marry Him?
Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 216 of "Money For Couples," Ramit Sethi delves into the challenging financial dynamics of Taylor and Hayden, a couple grappling with disparate money philosophies that threaten their future together. This episode offers a raw and unfiltered look into how money psychology can deeply influence romantic relationships, potentially leading to significant conflicts and tough decisions about marriage.

Couple’s Financial Background

Taylor:

• Age: 29
• Occupation: Dentist
• Income: $14,614/month
• Financial Habits: Highly responsible, strong saver, extensive investor with $83,952 in investments and $114,099 in savings.
• Personal CSP Breakdown:
  • Fixed Costs: 36%
  • Savings: 42%
  • Investments: 11%
  • Guilt-Free Spending: 11%

Hayden:

• Age: 25
• Occupation: Part-time bartender and aspiring real estate investor
• Income: $2,000/month
• Financial Habits: Struggles with responsibility, habits bordering on addiction, minimal savings and investment.
• Personal CSP Breakdown:
  • Fixed Costs: 67%
  • Savings: 51%
  • Investments: 5%
  • Guilt-Free Spending: -23%

Household Income: Nearly $200,000/year combined.

The Conflict

The core of Taylor and Hayden’s conflict revolves around their handling of money. Taylor is meticulous and disciplined, focusing on saving and investing, while Hayden’s approach is erratic, marked by impulsive spending and past gambling issues. Taylor expresses significant fear and distrust regarding Hayden's financial habits, questioning whether she can trust him with their shared future.

Notable Quote:
Taylor (01:06): "I cannot seem to get over the fact that he will not track his money and be financially responsible."

Breakdown of Financial Discrepancies

Ramit analyzes their Conscious Spending Plans (CSPs) to highlight the stark differences:

• Taylor’s Financial Health:

  • Assets: $8,900
  • Investments: $83,952
  • Savings: $114,099
  • Debt: $5,570 (Hayden's)

• Hayden’s Financial Health:

  • Gross Monthly Income: $16,614 (annualized to $268,000 for Taylor, $13,000 for Hayden excluding bonuses)
  • Fixed Costs: 67%
  • Savings: 51%
  • Investments: 5%
  • Guilt-Free Spending: -23%

Notable Quote:
Ramit Sethi (03:00): "Taylor's side of the CSP is pretty clean. ...On Hayden's side, we see things are a different story."

Psychological Underpinnings

Taylor’s Background:
Taylor grew up in a household fraught with financial instability, her parents' relationship marked by sporadic support due to her father's addiction and legal issues. This led her to adopt a stringent approach to money, viewing it as a tool for safety and control.

Hayden’s Background:
Hayden experienced profound loss early in life, including the deaths of a close friend and his father due to cancer. These traumatic events instilled in him a present-focused mindset, leading him to prioritize immediate gratification over long-term financial planning.

Notable Quote:
Hayden (29:03): "When I was 15, I had a really good friend pass away... And then my dad passed away... I’m definitely living for the moment."

Current Efforts to Resolve

Both Taylor and Hayden are actively seeking solutions through therapy and structured financial planning.

• Therapy:
  They are engaged in couples therapy to address the underlying emotional traumas influencing their financial behaviors.

• Financial Adjustments:
  Hayden has taken steps to restructure his CSP, reduce fixed costs, and commit to paying off debt, aiming to align more closely with Taylor’s financial expectations.

Notable Quote:
Taylor (71:01): "I will commit to being more appreciative of the changes that are happening."

Challenges and Relationship Dynamics

The couple struggles with entrenched behavioral patterns and emotional baggage that complicate their financial harmony.

• Mother-Son Dynamic:
  Hayden acknowledges an unintentional parent-child dynamic in their relationship, which hampers equitable financial partnership.

• Trust Issues:
  Hayden’s past gambling led to significant financial deceit, severely damaging Taylor’s trust and creating ongoing resentment.

Notable Quote:
Ramit Sethi (28:27): "For Taylor, money means safety, control, power... For Hayden, it's a ticket to fun and freedom."

Advice and Recommendations from Ramit Sethi

Ramit provides actionable steps to help the couple navigate their financial discord:

1. Leadership in Financial Conversations:
   Hayden is encouraged to take a proactive role in leading discussions about finances, fostering mutual accountability.

2. Setting Clear Goals and Plans:
   Establishing specific, measurable financial goals can help both partners align their efforts towards a shared vision.

3. Consistent Follow-through:
   Consistency in adhering to financial plans and being transparent with expenditures is crucial for rebuilding trust.

Notable Quote:
Ramit Sethi (75:06): "Start with taking those meetings. Start by leading, and start by creating a vision for yourself."

Conclusion and Future Steps

Despite significant challenges, Taylor and Hayden exhibit a willingness to work towards financial and emotional reconciliation. Taylor commits to being more appreciative and reducing her anxiety, while Hayden vows to take financial matters more seriously and improve his money management.

Final Commitments:

• Taylor: To appreciate positive changes and manage her stress to support a healthier financial dialogue.
• Hayden: To commit to a more structured financial plan, increase his contributions, and prioritize financial responsibility.

Notable Quote:
Ramit Sethi (62:09): "You have to find some kind of shared, meaningful vision. What really stands out to me also is when Hayden says Taylor hoards money."

Key Takeaways

• Understanding Money Psychology:
  Deep-seated beliefs and past traumas significantly impact financial behaviors within relationships.

• Importance of Communication:
  Open, honest discussions about money are essential for aligning financial goals and rebuilding trust.

• Role of Professional Help:
  Therapy and financial coaching can provide valuable frameworks for couples to navigate financial conflicts.

• Actionable Steps Lead to Progress:
  Taking concrete actions, such as restructuring budgets and setting clear goals, can pave the way for financial harmony.

Resources Mentioned

• Free Resource:
  How to Talk to Your Partner About Money – Scripts to help navigate financial conversations without conflict. Available at iwt.com.

• MasterClass Membership:
  Access to over 200 classes for personal and professional development. Discount available at masterclass.com/ramit.

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Follow Taylor and Hayden:

• Instagram: @MoneyForCouples
• YouTube: Money For Couples Channel
• Facebook: Money For Couples
• X (formerly Twitter): @MoneyForCouples

Ramit Sethi’s Books:

• I Will Teach You To Be Rich
• Money for Couples

Get the Book: iwt.com/moneyforcouples

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This episode underscores the intricate interplay between personal financial practices and relationship health, offering listeners both a cautionary tale and a roadmap for tackling similar challenges in their own lives.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you want me to give you my personal take on your spending? Well, in my Saturday newsletter, I break down the real spending of anonymous readers. Yes, including single people. So if you want to be considered for an upcoming newsletter, go to iwt.com submit CSP and follow the three simple.

[Unknown Host]

Steps on the form. You might get an anonymously selected to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have your income and spending analyzed by me in an upcoming newsletter. I'll tell you what I see. I'll give you some personal recommendations on what I would do if I were in your situation. Of course, you can only read those analyses if you are signed up for the [e-mail] podcastnewsletter so here are the steps again. Number one, go to iwt.com submit CSP.

[Unknown Host]

To fill out the form.

[Ramit Sethi]

And number two, if you want to read that analysis or even if you're just nosy and you don't even want to submit your own, sign [e-mail] podcastnewsletter.

[Unknown Host]

So you can read my CSP breakdowns. I'll break down the best examples that I get. Do you trust Hayden with money?

[Taylor]

Not my money.

[Hayden]

I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit and addiction.

[Taylor]

I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me, wasn't offering me a dime.

[Hayden]

Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my back.

[Taylor]

I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me.

[Unknown Host]

Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from.

[Taylor]

I think in a way, we're still recovering from it.

[Unknown Host]

And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money?

[Hayden]

I don't do any of that. Money comes in and it goes right up.

[Taylor]

I want this to work so badly.

[Ramit Sethi]

Today I'm speaking with Taylor and Hayden. Taylor is 29. Hayden is 25. Listen to what Taylor wrote on her application. Quote, I cannot seem to get over the fact that he will not track his money and be financially responsible. We want to get married sometime in the next two years, but money issues is one of the reasons that we haven't gotten engaged yet. I'm scared of what our future could look like if he doesn't get a hold of his spending or start budgeting. It's very serious to me, but doesn't.

[Unknown Host]

Seem very serious for my partner.

[Ramit Sethi]

When she uses words like scared, serious, and responsible, those are not casual words. She's really asking if she can trust her partner with her future. Let's Take a look now at their conscious spending plan. You can download your own for [e-mail] CSP so you can know your four key numbers. Together they earn nearly $200,000 per year. Taylor brings in $14,614 a month. Hayden earns $2,000 a month. And it is a source of real tension in their relationship. Taylor's side of the CSP is pretty clean. Fixed cost, 42% savings, 11 investments, 11 guilt free spending, 36, no notes.

[Unknown Host]

Little high on guilt free spending, but okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Keep in mind they are not married yet, so they keep their finances separate. And on Hayden's side, we see things are a different story. Fixed costs, 67% savings, 51% investments, 5% guilt free spending, negative 23%. Very confusing. I have a lot of questions. So let's meet Taylor and Hayden.

[Unknown Host]

Can I just ask you guys in plain English, it took a lot of work for you to get here. What do you guys want to get out of this? What do you really want to get out of this?

[Hayden]

I want Taylor to feel more comfortable being in a relationship with me.

[Taylor]

I want to feel like I can trust Hayden, especially financially.

[Unknown Host]

Do you trust Hayden with money?

[Taylor]

Not my money.

[Unknown Host]

Why not?

[Taylor]

I like to use my money very responsibly. I like to save. And that is just not what Hayden likes to do. And so I think that makes me nervous.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

How long have you been feeling nervous about Hayden's relationship with money?

[Taylor]

Realistically, since we got together. But not enough to feel like I have any say until we moved in together.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, do you trust Taylor with money?

[Hayden]

She's so tight with her money. She's very responsible with her money. She's never given me a reason not to trust her.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Is tight the same thing as responsible with money to you?

[Hayden]

To me? No. Me and her do disagree on that. I do think she's tight with her money in sometimes an irrational way, but at the same time, it's hard to say that she's not also responsible with the money.

[Unknown Host]

So she's tight sometimes, but also responsible?

[Hayden]

I would say it's a cocktail of both all of the time.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, gotcha. All right, so you're living together, you're not married. How do you currently handle money in your household?

[Taylor]

I think do we Is a good question because right now he is working part time and trying to go back to school and paying off debt. That's primarily where his money is going. So I really cover all of the household costs.

[Unknown Host]

How long have you been living together?

[Taylor]

April 2023.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so like a couple of years. So Taylor, to be clear, you're paying all of the household expenses right now.

[Hayden]

Outside of like a hundred dollars that.

[Unknown Guest]

I give her Every.

[Taylor]

Yeah, he gives me like a hundred dollars.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, where did that hundred dollars come from?

[Taylor]

It was actually a compromise from our couples counselor. We're in couples therapy and we talked to our therapist about this and we came up with that because I don't mind paying for everything in the house, but sometimes it feels like he doesn't have any skin in the game whatsoever. So he gets to just do whatever he wants with his money, but whereas I have to be responsible with my money because it's our life on the line. And we kind of agreed on that.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, and how do you feel about that exercise and that arrangement?

[Hayden]

I really wish I could do more. It bothers me that she holds all the weight financially. I think ideally I would be contributing equitably.

[Unknown Host]

Why does it bother you? Just out of curiosity.

[Hayden]

I mean, like her feeling like I'm not invested. I think that bothers me that I'm making her feel that way, I guess.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you catch what Taylor just said? He gets to do whatever he wants with his money while I have to be responsible because it's our life on the line. That is a powerful statement. Hayden is not contributing equally to their expenses and he knows it. But the standout moment for me is the agreement that they made. Hayden contributes $100 a month to shared expenses. And that number isn't random. It came out of a session with their couple's therapist. Taylor wanted him to have some, quote, skin in the game. Now, I'm not judging them, but $100 a month for an able bodied adult in their mid-20s is a pretty low bar. And that is part of the problem. This reminds me of what I call the plight of experts. Okay, like let's say you're a personal trainer. You know that the truth is to have a healthy body and build bone density and muscle mass and all kinds of stuff, you need to work out, let's say three to four hours a week. Probably doing some strength training. But try telling that to somebody who hasn't worked out in 25 years. It's overwhelming. So they simply shut down hearing that advice. So what does an expert do? Well, they reduce their recommendations. Okay, okay, okay. Let's start with 30 minutes. Oh, okay, forget about 30 minutes. How about just a walk once a week? How about just a walk once a month? The standard gets lower and lower just to get people in the door. I See, the same thing with emergency funds. I recommend a 12 month emergency fund, not because it's easy, but because it gives you true financial security, especially when things are particularly uncertain. But whenever I talk about this, I get the same reaction. Ramit, that's totally unreasonable for most people.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's why we start with a month, then three months and six months, and on and on and on. The goal doesn't change, but we can make the steps feel doable. That's kind of what's happening here with Hayden. He says he wants things to feel equitable, but his income doesn't support that. So they started with a hundred bucks. Fine, I don't mind it. But there needs to be a vision of that number going up. I still have a lot of questions about how the rest of their money is set up, so let's dig into their csp.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

I'm very curious about the numbers. Can we take a look?

[Taylor]

Yeah, sure.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so let's keep in mind you are not married, but you're living together. So is your money in separate accounts?

[Unknown Guest]

Oh, yeah, it is.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. But for the purposes of this, you also added a combined, which is very helpful. So let's see here.

[Ramit Sethi]

Taylor, can you read off the word.

[Unknown Host]

In bold and then the combined number in full next to it for this entire box, please.

[Taylor]

Assets, $8,900. Investments, $83,952. Savings, $114,099. And debt, $5,570. Total net worth, $201,381.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, I should point out that the majority of the investments are yours, Taylor. So out of 83,000, 82,000 of those are yours. The majority of savings are yours. Out of 114,000. 113,000 are yours. And the debt, $5,500 is Hayden's debt. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers?

[Hayden]

I'm very proud of Taylor. She's done really well. She has no debt saved up. So much money invested, like, she's just. She's kicking. So I'm really proud of her.

[Unknown Guest]

Love that.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, and how about for you, Hayden?

[Hayden]

I think for me, I'm not super upset with my numbers. It's just kind of where I am right now in life. I'm in a very transitional part of my life. I think sitting next to Taylor as, like, a super impressive person might bother some people, but it doesn't bother me.

[Unknown Guest]

Ah, okay.

[Unknown Host]

All right, let's go down to the income section. This time, Hayden, I'm going to ask you to read off the combined gross monthly income number.

[Hayden]

GROSS Monthly income, $16,614.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so that's just about $200,000 a year in household income, Is that correct?

[Unknown Guest]

No.

[Taylor]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

No.

[Unknown Host]

What is the actual number?

[Taylor]

It's annual. Yeah, annual 268.

[Hayden]

That was yours? I think mine was last year, like 13,000. So. To 81.

[Unknown Host]

So you are only off by $80,000.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

It's a casual, you know, some people lose a couple of quarters in the couch, some people forget about $80,000 in gross household income. Who am I to say?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Taylor]

Because I get quarterly bonuses and I didn't know how to break that up monthly and they're not guaranteed, so that's what I was worried about.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so you didn't include them.

[Taylor]

Correct.

[Unknown Host]

So are you probably going to get the bonuses this year?

[Taylor]

Maybe, I think.

[Unknown Host]

What's the odds?

[Taylor]

70%.

[Unknown Host]

70%.

[Unknown Guest]

All right.

[Unknown Host]

And you think it's going to be less than the amount you got last year?

[Unknown Guest]

Correct.

[Unknown Host]

All right, so last year you got 80k of bonuses. What would be a reasonable conservative amount to assume you're going to get this year?

[Taylor]

40.40K.

[Unknown Host]

50% of what you made last year in bonuses. Would that be reasonable to assume? Can you feel confident you'll hit that?

[Taylor]

Yes.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

That's your number.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

That's how we do it. We don't let indecision stop us from making projections. We pick a number. We always pick a conservative number. Because if we're going to get surprised, we're going to get surprised in the positive way, not the negative way. And then we move on with our life. All right, I'm going to update this. We just added 2500amonth in take home pay.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

The income disparity between the two of you is quite striking. Can I ask what each of you does for a living, starting with Taylor?

[Taylor]

I'm a dentist.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden.

[Hayden]

I part time bartend and dabble in real estate.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, and were you both in these occupations when you first met? Okay, that's interesting. Hayden, were you earning the same amount when you met as you are now?

[Hayden]

I was making about three times as much.

[Unknown Host]

What happened?

[Hayden]

I knew, I mean, that's what happened.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

I was at a job when we met. I mean, it was a pretty good gig. We were doing really well. It's a pretty popular bar where I'm from. So then she graduated from dental school, moved to Knoxville, and then, I don't know, like six or eight months later I was there.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so you moved to be closer to Taylor.

[Hayden]

Well, yeah, we moved in together. That was the point of me moving.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

And making 60k, you know, that's pretty good living. What happened to the money?

[Hayden]

Oh, I spent all of it at 21. I was having a lot of fun.

[Unknown Host]

Is it different now?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I'm definitely better with my money now than I ever was making closer to 60.

[Unknown Host]

Moving on, fixed costs. What's that percentage, Taylor?

[Taylor]

36%.

[Unknown Guest]

All right.

[Unknown Host]

What do you think of that number?

[Taylor]

I think looks great.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's quite low. Usually I recommend people have their fixed cost between 50, 50 to 60%. And truthfully, most people are at the higher end of that, if not over. What does that tell you, Hayden?

[Hayden]

Based off the household income, our life is not very expensive.

[Unknown Host]

That's correct. That's exactly right. Your fixed costs, like your housing costs, your auto cost, they're quite low. And so what that means is you probably have a lot of extra money.

[Ramit Sethi]

To do stuff with.

[Unknown Host]

I have no critiques because if you're at 36%, I have no notes, but just to go through it. Debt payments at 600 bucks, that's for your debt, Hayden, is that right?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I like to pay around that every month.

[Unknown Host]

What's the debt for?

[Hayden]

There's a little bit of school, irs, a little bit of credit card.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay. All right.

[Unknown Host]

When is this debt going to be paid off?

[Hayden]

I just had a listing go live and went under contract the next day. If that were to close, it would pay off all my debt.

[Unknown Guest]

All of it.

[Unknown Host]

All right, let's continue moving along. We have your investments. Investments are at 9%. That's Taylor putting aside 1,000 bucks a month in like a post tax retirement. And Hayden is putting $83 aside per month.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay, cool.

[Unknown Host]

Let's keep moving. Savings at 10%. Is this real?

[Unknown Guest]

What the hell?

[Unknown Host]

Read these numbers off to me.

[Taylor]

Long term emergency zero wedding, zero house.

[Unknown Host]

I mean, you do have $114,000 in savings, so. Yeah, that's like years and years of savings.

[Taylor]

Yeah. So the zeros are because I'm done saving.

[Unknown Host]

Done.

[Taylor]

I've hit my goal, but they're there, but I'm no longer adding to them.

[Unknown Host]

Round of applause for that. That is a lovely thing to hear. I'm done. I hit my goals. It's so rare we get to say.

[Ramit Sethi]

That, but you did it.

[Unknown Host]

Great job.

[Taylor]

Thanks.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, hold on, Hayden. How come you're putting 600 bucks a month aside for vacations?

[Hayden]

It's not necessarily vacations. That 600 bucks a month that I'm putting aside is kind of like my Sinking fund so that I can use it during times where it's time to have fun, I guess.

[Unknown Host]

Wait, isn't fun like paying off your debt?

[Hayden]

I mean, it's not very fun.

[Unknown Host]

I get that you're using it as a sinking fund. I actually think that's really smart, especially when you have irregular income.

[Hayden]

And the industries that I work in, it's very, very much economy based. I made $2,000 a month, but that's not necessarily the case. Like the past two months, I might have made like $1,300 or $1,200.

[Unknown Host]

What do you do when you make 1300 instead of 2000?

[Hayden]

I kind of just figure it out. I don't have plans in place or anything like that. I make the money and then I put a certain amount where I know it has to go, and then I'm left with the rest. If it's 200 bucks that month, I might spend it on myself. I might go out to eat or go see a movie or go out with friends, you know, whatever.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, as you're hearing this, what are you feeling right now?

[Taylor]

I feel frustrated right now, just upset, Kind of like a little hopeless. Sometimes when I hear him talk, I'm like, I don't understand how that doesn't just give you raging anxiety all the time, but also the things that he does with the money, the actions also just like not what I would do, not what I have done in the past. Because there was a time before I was making $268,000.

[Unknown Host]

Let's look at the final numbers here. And then I want to understand more about your relationships with money. According to this, you have 45% of money going to guilt free spending. Now we all know that's not happening, right? You're not spending $5,600 a month on guilt free spending. True or false?

[Unknown Guest]

True.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so like, where's the money going? Seems like it's just going to savings.

[Hayden]

Yeah, it's being hoarded.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, what was that word?

[Unknown Guest]

Hoarded. Hoarded. Okay, hoarded.

[Unknown Host]

I've been spending a lot more time trying to experiment on TikTok.

[Ramit Sethi]

And if you don't follow me, please go on over there and follow me. Right now I'm learning how to edit videos on.

[Unknown Host]

Honestly, it took me like over an.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hour to figure out how to add.

[Unknown Host]

A graphic to my own video. I sent it to my social media manager and I was like, hey, what's the feedback? What do you think I could do better?

[Ramit Sethi]

She literally sent a full page of notes on all the areas my video was not good and what I should do Next Now I've got to say I love the learning curve of learning a new skill, but sometimes you need to move fast by hiring an expert like a video editor. That is why I love using upwork. Recently my team and I have hired a content editor to help with emails.

[Unknown Host]

A graphic designer for a new product.

[Ramit Sethi]

And a developer who's helped us update our website. Posting a job on upwork is easy. It's free to join, you can register, you can browse freelancer profiles, you can get help drafting a job post or even book a consultation. And from there you connect with freelancers, you browse their work and you can easily hire them to get started on projects right away. Upwork made the whole process easier and more affordable. With industry low fees, you can find top talent across a ton of different industries including it, web development, design, marketing, admin support, all of it. So visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's Upwork.com to to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's upwork.com upwork.com My friend used to have a financial advisor who would send a big heavy coffee cake to her family every Christmas. How nice. She thought they really care about me. Then one day she read my book and found out how much she was actually paying this advisor, the very advisor she barely spoke to 1% Aum, which was thousands of dollars per year in her early 30s. Now trust me, that coffee cake doesn't add up to nearly as much as she was paying in fees. That's why I tell you not to work with a financial advisor who charges a U M or a percentage of your investment portfolio. That percentage compounds year after year and can often end up costing you tens of thousands, hundreds of Thousands, sometimes over $1 million in fees alone. A gift basket does not make up for those fees. A better way is a flat fee. Financial planner like our partners at FAFSA fast charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, not a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a cfp, always a fiduciary who help you create a personalized financial plan and actually keep it updated. They help with investment management, retirement planning, tax strategy, estate planning so that you are not doing it alone. And the plan evolves with your life, whether you're starting a family, changing jobs or planning for retirement. Right now Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members and if you Invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days, they will add $300 to your brokerage account. Head to facet.com ramit to see which membership Core plus or Complete is right for you. Again, that's fassit.com ramit. I'm not a member of FASTT and I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of similar outcome.

[Unknown Host]

What does that mean? Hoarded.

[Hayden]

That's being kept and nothing's happened with it. As much as one can collect, they're keeping it.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, that's quite revealing. So is money in savings being hoarded?

[Taylor]

I don't think so. I think money and savings, there's a goal for that.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor says no. Hayden, what do you say?

[Hayden]

Well, I think if we were saving all of the money, sure. But I mean, I think you have like checking accounts, right, that have tens of thousands of dollars, right?

[Taylor]

Not. Not right now. No, I do.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Taylor]

I put that there in order to then place it somewhere else. There is a goal for that.

[Unknown Guest]

Gotcha.

[Unknown Host]

What's the difference between savings and hoarding? Or is there not a difference? Hayden?

[Hayden]

I think if she has a plan for said money, then that's fair. I don't buy like, okay, she has $50,000 or something like that in a wedding fund. I don't buy that she plans to spend 50k on a wedding. Right. I got.

[Unknown Guest]

Go ahead.

[Unknown Host]

Hold on, Taylor. I want to hear what Hayden has to say.

[Hayden]

Also because we've talked about it before. She doesn't plan to spend $50,000 on a wedding. So in my head it's like, why do you have all of that money if you don't plan to use it for that?

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, if she says she's not going to spend 50k on a wedding, but she has 50k in a wedding fund, why might she do that?

[Hayden]

I think with the emergency buffer being in like all of these accounts, like she has more in these accounts than she's actually wanting to use for these things. That's. I would call it hoarding and she would call it just being careful.

[Unknown Host]

And in your view, how much should she have for a wedding fund?

[Hayden]

Oh, I wouldn't want to spend $50,000 on a wedding, so I'm closer to like half of that maybe.

[Unknown Host]

So she should have 25k in a wedding fund. What should she do with the rest.

[Hayden]

Of the money that 25,000? I mean, probably invest, right or put it somewhere else, have another goal.

[Unknown Host]

And out of curiosity, how much of that type of thinking do you do with your own money?

[Unknown Guest]

I don't do any of that.

[Hayden]

I'm very opposite. Money comes in and it goes right out.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, did you have something you wanted to add?

[Taylor]

No, I was just like. You ate with that. You ate with that, Sir.

[Unknown Host]

According to the conscious spending plan that you both submitted to me, Hayden, you have $1,070 in savings.

[Hayden]

Yeah, I've got another thousand in investments as well. And then when it comes to just, like, money on me, it's about another thousand.

[Unknown Host]

You have a thousand dollars on you.

[Hayden]

Right now between, like, cash and checking and.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like where? Like, is it in your pocket right now? Can you show me?

[Hayden]

No, it's in my bank account, and I have some cash. It might be like. Oh, yeah, there it is. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Wait, show me what's in there. We don't usually show cash on this show. Just show me what's in there.

[Hayden]

There's probably, I think, like, $180.

[Unknown Host]

So first of all, this is interesting. Taylor is pulling out, like, a portfolio. Hold that up to the camera. Hold that up. Okay. What in the hell?

[Ramit Sethi]

So.

[Hayden]

Oh, oh, hold on, hold on, hold on. Slow down, slow down.

[Unknown Host]

Go back. So this is like a cash wallet. I haven't seen one of these in a long time. There's laminated plastic, and they have money, and it says gas, and they literally have money. They're doing the envelope system. Okay, so that's gas. Let's go to the next one. They have one called Bills. It's a bit of a vague description, but. Okay, what's next? They have one called Sinking Fund. Well done. Looks like there's a $10 or. There's nothing in there. Okay, there's nothing in there. Next up, they have school. There's a $10 bill in there. May. Oh, and a five. Okay, maybe there's more. I can't really tell. Moving along. Savings has nothing in it. Okay. DG night. What's that?

[Taylor]

Date night.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, date night.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, date night. Okay.

[Unknown Guest]

All right.

[Unknown Host]

Date night. That has zero in it. All right, Next. Therapy has $100 in it.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

And maybe more. I can't tell, but keep going. Real estate has zero.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Roth IRA has nothing.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

And we're at the end.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, first of all, I gotta say, I do love. I love the organization system. The envelope system is quite effective for people who are not making a lot of money and need to be extremely diligent. It's also good for people who have historically been irresponsible with their money, because it is a very clear black and white strategy. When the money runs out, that's it. Like, and to have to literally and figuratively lift it from another envelope and put it in this envelope, you kind of realize, like, oh, why am I withdrawing my retirement money to, you know, go to Cheesecake Factory? That doesn't quite make sense. Who came up with that system?

[Unknown Guest]

Taylor did.

[Hayden]

Well, I think Taylor found it on TikTok and then presented it to me.

[Unknown Host]

And was like, hey, Taylor didn't find that in my book. I also referenced that and I Will Teach youh to Be Rich, but we'll leave that for another day. Okay, Taylor, on your application, you wrote, quote, I think we're hesitant to get engaged because of different money philosophies. Taylor, let's go to you. What are your philosophies around money?

[Taylor]

I feel like money is power. When you have money, you're more likely to not only just do the things you want, but first of all, stay alive. It's a safety thing to make sure that you're always taken care of. Your family, your spouse, your children, whoever is always taken care of in hopes that, like, you never have the rug pulled under you.

[Unknown Host]

What do you say, Hayden?

[Hayden]

My philosophy with money is that it doesn't really have value. I know that's not true. I'm just kind of letting you know how my brain works. Like, money is only here so that you can pay for things that do matter, like expensive experiences, things like that.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so when you say money doesn't have value, are you really saying, I like to live for today and I don't really care about investing or saving for tomorrow?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, what do you hear from Hayden?

[Taylor]

I hear that I don't value the things that money could provide. I don't see money as safety. I don't need safety. I'm worried about right now and whatever happens later, whatever.

[Hayden]

I think she's right in all of that. I think I might go a little bit deeper than that. I think that our philosophies come from our own personal traumas. And I think the way that we reconcile that is through therapy, self reflection, practice, stuff like that. We are a couple and we're one, but it's much more individual. Like I said, trauma that I think we both need to work out.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you hear the difference in how.

[Unknown Host]

They talk about money?

[Ramit Sethi]

For Taylor, money means safety, control, power. She sees money as a tool for stability and control. For Hayden, it's different. He says money has, quote, no value. Those are his exact words. Hayden sees money as a ticket to fun and freedom. Now, the good news is you can actually have a healthy, happy relationship, even if both of you see money differently. But you do have to find some kind of shared, meaningful vision. What really stands out to me also is when Hayden says Taylor hoards money. That word choice is revealing. Hayden himself doesn't really know much about money, but when he sees Taylor handling it, he calls it hoarding. I think that Hayden is consciously or unconsciously demonizing Taylor's money management so that he doesn't have to take a look in the mirror at his own finances. And if you know somebody who's in a relationship where one person handles all the money and the other one avoids it, send them this episode. It might be the start of a conversation they've been avoiding for years.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[Hayden]

It really wasn't discussed all that much. It was more of those. There's adult issues, and then there's things that kids need to worry about. So a lot of the time, I was kind of left in the dark about money.

[Unknown Host]

Were you growing up with two parents?

[Hayden]

Four parents. I grew up in two different households.

[Unknown Host]

Ah, got it.

[Hayden]

My dad and my stepmom, again, they didn't really discuss money with me, but I know that was much more of a middle class home than the other house was.

[Unknown Host]

What was the other house if it's not middle class?

[Hayden]

Higher middle class. Like, I went to private school from kindergarten to 12th grade.

[Unknown Host]

How much did that cost? Do you have a sense of, like.

[Hayden]

Through those 12 years? Oh, per year? I think when I was younger, it was like three to $5,000 a year. And then high school, it was like 12 to 14 a year.

[Unknown Host]

Use the word trauma as it relates to money. And I wonder if I'm overstepping. We can simply not talk about this. But I'm curious. Is there something that affected your relationship with money that happened in your past?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I think for both of us, we could say that.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, tell me about yours first.

[Hayden]

When I was 15, I had a really good friend pass away. July 4, 2015 is when he died. And it was cancer.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

He was my age, so that was pretty tough. And then July 6th of 2016. So a year and two days later, my dad passed away. Cancer again. I have experienced more loss in 25 years than like, maybe your average person would. So I'm definitely living for the moment. You know, why am I going to save up for money to spend when I'm 45, when I'm going to die at 42, you know, I'm so sorry.

[Unknown Guest]

You.

[Unknown Host]

You lost your dad and your friend, and that loss really weighs on you, especially coming days apart.

[Unknown Guest]

Right? Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I'm so sorry. When you say that after that happened, you were basically living for the moment. Can you help me understand that? Why did you make that conclusion after all that happened?

[Hayden]

Saving just sounded really stupid. Honestly, sorry.

[Unknown Guest]

Why?

[Hayden]

Because saving for what? Right. My dad was a firefighter. He worked super hard. He had three kids and a wife he was saving, and then he just got cancer and died, you know?

[Unknown Host]

How old was your dad when he passed away?

[Hayden]

42.

[Unknown Host]

42. So that's why you said I'm not even going to be around past 42.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

My dad was like this big dude. He was a firefighter. Like, he was a professional hero. Right. So growing up like, this dude is invincible. When he had the cancer from his diagnosis, it was six months when he died. So him dying at 42, I don't.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

How am I going to make it past that?

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

What if you did?

[Hayden]

I think I probably will if I actually sit down and rationally think about it. There is no evidence to say that I'm going to die at 42 years old. His dad is still alive, you know?

[Unknown Host]

So can I ask you, financially speaking, what if you do? What if you're 43, 45. What if.

[Hayden]

Yeah, I would like to have thought at 43, 44, 45, that I maybe started saving for those years that 25, and started making plans as a young man. So that at 42, 43, I have a family and we're all okay, and everybody feels safe.

[Unknown Host]

The way you talk about it, it's almost like, rationally, cerebrally, I know I should probably save because I'm probably gonna live longer than 42. But deep down, that's not how I feel. I feel like I'm gonna spend it now.

[Hayden]

It feels silly to say no to something fun so that I can save for something in the future like that. That's how it feels for me. It feels silly to not just say yes and go do it all.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah. Okay.

[Unknown Host]

I think you. You really helped me understand some of where your philosophy on money comes from. Honestly, it would not have been obvious to me just from looking at the numbers. One of the reasons that I feel so grateful, I get a chance to ask people their story and give them the space to really share it. So I appreciate that. Taylor, what about you? What do you Remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

[Taylor]

A lot, a lot, and not in a fun way. So my parents, they were also really never together. They hang out one night and my mom was like, oh, there's a baby here. They were never really friends, they just kind of co parented. My dad kind of paid child support sometimes when he could, I guess. My dad also had a past with addiction, so there was a lot of time that he was in and out of jail. Didn't really get to see me as much if he couldn't pass a drug test or wasn't paying child support. And then in that time my mom was holding it down, just her for me and my brother. My mom had a hard time keeping a job because she is epileptic. So sometimes she would have seizures on the job and get fired because of that because it was kind of a liability thing. And so there were times that my mom didn't have a job and we were just figuring it out. I remember specifically a time in high school and it's kind of a hehe haha joke with my mom now, but there was a time in high school that my mom had $11.23 in her bank account and we were to make it until whenever we were going to get paid again. And there wasn't a lot in the house at the time. And so I always saved up birthday money, report card money, anytime I wanted to do anything. But also, if we ever got into a hard situation, I could help. I never had a job in high school because I focused a lot on extracurriculars because I knew if I was going to go to college, you had to be the best damn student you were going to be because it had to get paid for. So that's kind of why money is safety for me. It's power because I didn't have that really at all growing up.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah. Wow.

[Unknown Host]

Do you think you had to grow up as a kid before you were ready?

[Hayden]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Taylor]

Something I've talked to my therapist about is feeling like I have to parent my parents as a child.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You do any of that in this relationship?

[Unknown Guest]

Damn.

[Taylor]

Caught us.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

I always ask people how they learned about money growing up because often we recreate the financial dynamics that we saw as kids. We just don't realize it. Let's take a look at Taylor. She grew up in a household marked by instability, financial stress, health issues, even incarceration. Her parents were not reliable with money. So what did she do? She stepped up as a child. She started saving not just for herself, but to help her mom to keep the household running. She became, in ways, the parent. Now fast forward to adulthood. Taylor's the saver, the contributor. Her partner is unreliable with money just like her parents. And Taylor feels safest when she's the one in control. It reinforces that belief she's been carrying since she was a kid. If I don't take care of it, no one else will. And then there's Hayden. When he was 16, he lost his dad. His dad was only 42 years old. That loss shaped how he sees everything. In fact, most of the guys that I know who lost their dads early have told me they expect to die at the same age. That belief that he's going to die early shapes his view of money. It doesn't justify everything, but at least it helps us start to make sense of it. But then I discovered something that broke the trust of their relationship.

[Hayden]

Right now we are definitely in that mother, son dynamic in our relationship. I want that gone.

[Unknown Guest]

I agree.

[Hayden]

I want us to be equal, equitable partners, a team taking on everything.

[Unknown Host]

Okay. I love that vision as partners, not parent, child dynamic. I love that. Now let's go back to where you are today. If you continue the way that you're both going today, where are you five, ten years from now?

[Unknown Guest]

Where we are right now?

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, same thing, just bigger numbers.

[Hayden]

I think maybe we're in a better spot, but I think again, Taylor has dictated how we got there.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So who needs to make the change out of the two of you? I mean, probably both, but who needs to primarily make the changes?

[Hayden]

I mean, I'd say me. That's what I would say. I think that I need to be more reliable, maybe do more of the things with money that I say I'm going to do. And I think that'll make her feel better. Backing off.

[Unknown Host]

What if you don't?

[Hayden]

I think the mother son dynamic will just continue until he part ways.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, you agree with that?

[Taylor]

Yeah, We've had a lot of discussions and he doesn't really like to talk about this, but I have told him that if I don't think that things are changing, I don't think I can be with someone that I don't trust. And so I really don't want that for us. And so that's why I feel like we're trying to do everything we can to get on the same page.

[Unknown Host]

What's this trusting? You mentioned it a couple times. And this thing about, like bringing money together, like, what happened to this money is there something there with the trust.

[Hayden]

So I got into gambling when I was about 18 years old.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

What happened?

[Hayden]

I got into it really bad. Definitely became a habit, an addiction to the point where I was just again. And someone who doesn't value money. Right. It's not a great addiction to have because I was just blowing all of it until I got that hit, that win, that big euphoric feeling. So when me and Taylor first moved in together and I had money from the house that I sold, I blew all of it. And not a lot of time.

[Unknown Host]

How much time?

[Hayden]

Four or five months.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Unknown Host]

How much money are we talking about?

[Hayden]

Like 35,000.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Unknown Host]

Right now, if you look at the.

[Ramit Sethi]

News, economy is very uncertain. I've talked about increasing your emergency fund. We're hearing about layoffs, inflation, prices going up, companies raising prices because of tariffs.

[Unknown Host]

If you are running a business, there's.

[Ramit Sethi]

A lot of uncertainty. And when there's uncertainty, there's risk. When there's risk, companies often cut back, they raise prices, they freeze hiring, or worse. So how do you make decisions when.

[Unknown Host]

The future is uncertain?

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, one of the things you can do is start getting a clear view of the present, what's actually happening in.

[Unknown Host]

Your business right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that's exactly what this episode's sponsor, NetSuite gives you. When you're running a business, you need visibility and whether that's global shipments to tariff impacts to real time cash flow. You can see those things using NetSuite.

[Unknown Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Unknown Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Unknown Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Unknown Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Unknown Host]

When I was a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Kid, my parents took us on tours of colleges. Not when we were 16, not even 14. My sisters were in middle school when they took them to UC Berkeley. And then they later took my brother and me to Stanford. And they told us, you can go here if you work hard. It wasn't like if you go to college. No. In our culture, it was expected that we would go to college and not any college. They told us day one, you can go to a great college. And you know what? They were right. They were right to show us how to plan ahead and how to help us dream big. Both of my sisters went to UC Berkeley and my brother and I went to Stanford. Now, some things are worth getting serious about early, especially when it comes to setting your kids up for success. That's why I recommend fabric by Gerber Life. It helps parents make sure their family is protected in case something tragic happens to you tomorrow. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's built for busy parents. It's all online on your schedule. You could be covered in under 10 minutes. No health exam required. Their policies are high quality, flexible and affordable. Like a million dollars in coverage for less than a dollar a day. And with over 1900 five star reviews on Trustpilot, they are rated excellent. Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their families. Apply today in just [e-mail] ramit. Policies are issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company, not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions. That's meatfabric.com ramit it got to the.

[Hayden]

Point to where my money got low. I took out a personal loan at like a 20 something percent just to continue the lie. With addiction, there's lies, gaslighting, all of the things. And eventually there was a point where my back was on the wall. There was no more keeping it a secret and lying about it. So when I came clean to Taylor, or was forced to, I don't want to give myself credit. Like, I hey, babe. Actually, I've been lying for. So that's not really what happened. What happened was there was no more room to move. And obviously she was very hurt.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, when did you realize something was wrong?

[Taylor]

Even from the beginning, as soon as he received the money from his house, I had doubts. He would go back to his hometown, blow a good amount of money, and I would be like, what is going on? He's like, well, I just need to have fun. I need to do this, I need to do that. So we had a lot of talks about that and then he had blown through everything. I didn't know yet he had gotten the personal loan and he was doing a zoom meeting for his real estate and he needed something from his email. And I said, don't worry, I'll find it for you. Keep going on your interview. I'm going through his email to find what it is that he needed, and I find an email about the personal loan. And I'm like, this seems odd. So I get him what he needs. He gets off the interview, and I'm like, hey, I found this thing in your email. Like, this seems kind of predatory. Is this something that you're doing? And he's like, no, no, no, not at all. I was just seeing if I could qualify for this. Da, da, da, da da. And in my head, I'm like, I feel like this is bull. And then later, he comes clean to me that, like, in that moment, he went to work and was, like, screaming, crying, throwing up in the car, because obviously I found out, even though he had convinced me that it wasn't like that. And then maybe six or so months later is when him and I had a conversation, and I was like, is there something you need to tell me?

[Unknown Host]

You're telling me it took him six months to come clean about it after.

[Taylor]

He had taken out the loan? Yeah. I think in total, it ended up being a year from when he moved in is when I really found out everything.

[Unknown Host]

What happened when you found out? What was it?

[Taylor]

I was devastated because I never wanted to feel like a man was just living off of me. And that's exactly what it ended up feeling like, because here I am paying for our whole life in hopes that you can save money, do your investments, pay for your real estate so that you can do everything you want to do. Because he's telling me that's what he wants, like, that's his dream. And so I'm like, okay, like, I'm in a place that I can absolutely pay for us. While you're doing that, I mean, I did ask you to move down here with me. I asked you to give up a lot, so, you know, that's the least I can do. And then I find out he blew $40,000 and wasn't paying me, wasn't offering me a dime. And so it felt so much like I was being taken advantage of. It felt like I was obviously not a priority. And then to keep up a lie for a year, knowing I was finding out little bits and pieces, and I was just continuously getting lied to gas lit. That really hurt our relationship a lot.

[Unknown Host]

Where did you go from there? It seems like it would be really tough to recover from.

[Taylor]

I think, in a way, we're still recovering from it. And I think that's why the financial stuff has gotten as serious as it is. These are questions I've asked myself, like, at what extent is it going to stop? At what point am I going to have to be like, I can't. And a lot of times I don't like to think about that because I don't want that to be the case. I want this to work so badly. I want for this to be reconciled so badly. And my hope is, if I tell him, hey, at some point, I'm going to leave if you don't fix it, that he's just going to fix it because he loves me and wants to be with me. And it hurts a lot when I say that. And things don't change because then it tells me in my brain, oh, he doesn't love you enough to change the things. And he knows that at some point you're gonna get sick and tired, and he's okay with that.

[Hayden]

We've had that conversation, and I feel very trapped with that.

[Unknown Guest]

Why?

[Hayden]

I mean, I struggle with other things outside of just past trauma and stuff. I struggle with compulsion, obviously, adhd, pretty heavy anxiety. So there's other barriers outside of just not wanting to give Taylor what she wants.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, right.

[Unknown Host]

You getting help for those things?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah. Yeah. That's good.

[Hayden]

We have our own personal therapist, plus a pump.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

So, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, it's really good.

[Hayden]

I'm also in GA now. I have been for, I guess, like 14 months. I haven't gambled since, so I think it's discouraging. Sometimes it feels like some of my effort might be discounted, but it's really hard for me to think like that or ever feel sorry for myself. Based off the story you just got, which was 100% accurate. She didn't miss anything.

[Unknown Host]

When you took that personal loan out, how much was the loan for?

[Hayden]

7,500 bucks.

[Unknown Host]

$7,500? Who'd you take it from?

[Hayden]

Some.

[Taylor]

I don't even remember Lending Point.

[Hayden]

Oh, I remember.

[Taylor]

It was a big deal to me.

[Unknown Host]

What was the interest rate?

[Hayden]

Oh, 22, probably.

[Unknown Host]

How were you planning to pay it back?

[Hayden]

I guess I didn't really have much of a plan at the time. I think my plan was to stop gambling, you know, But I didn't come clean to anyone about the struggles that I had, you know?

[Unknown Host]

How did it feel to keep that secret from Taylor?

[Hayden]

Oh, my God. Took years off of my life, probably. It was terrible. Overwhelmed with guilt to the point to where when she's asking me about money, I'm getting visibly Upset with her?

[Unknown Guest]

Really?

[Hayden]

It's not with her at all. I'm getting upset with her because I know I'm going to have to lie to her. When she asked, do you still feel.

[Unknown Host]

Like you have to lie about money?

[Unknown Guest]

No.

[Hayden]

I'm pretty transparent with my money. And that's part of my recovery, too. I gave her full access to all of my accounts and stuff like that.

[Unknown Host]

When you were not telling her about the personal loan that you'd taken out, what was holding you back from telling her? What were you afraid of?

[Hayden]

Oh, first of all, I was worried about not being able to gamble. And then I was also worried about if she knew all of this.

[Unknown Guest]

I think she will leave.

[Ramit Sethi]

I want to pause here for a second. I really appreciate Hayden's honesty. Admitting that he lied to Taylor about money, especially in front of her on this call, takes a lot of courage. But despite that honesty, he is still glossing over something critical. He said, if she knew all of this, I think she would leave. But we should be honest. Taylor has already said she's thinking about leaving. Not hypothetically. She has said flat out, if things don't change, she's gone. That's not a distant risk. That is a current reality. Sometimes we're so worried about what might happen that we ignore what's actually happening in front of our eyes. To his credit, Hayden has taken some real steps. He's gone to GA Gamblers Anonymous. He started therapy. I respect that it's not easy, but that pattern of broken trust is still there. So listen, as I push them to get honest with themselves.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, can I make a point about your situation right now? You mentioned back then you held onto this lie for a long time. You were worried that she would break up with you. But right now, Taylor is telling you in no uncertain terms that if things don't change, she might have to leave. At the same time, back then, you were worried about not being able to gamble. And right now, even just a few minutes ago, you said, well, I want to still have fun with my money. Do you see the similarities in what was happening back then and what is happening right now?

[Unknown Guest]

Sure. Yeah.

[Hayden]

I guess in both scenarios, she is not cool with how I'm using or spending my money. And in most scenarios, like, if those things were to continue, she would leave.

[Unknown Host]

Have you said that, Taylor?

[Taylor]

Yeah, and he really doesn't like when I say that. To me, it feels like I'm setting a boundary. If this continues, if this behavior continues, I will need to leave.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

And I feel like sometimes the way that he hears it is like a threat or an attack. And so to him, it feels not there. But to me, I feel like staying when something like this is happening is not there for me, this feels like the biggest problem in our relationship.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, Hayden, do you agree?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

Yes. With an asterisk. Tell me it's not my biggest problem.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

It's Taylor's.

[Unknown Host]

What? It's not. This is. Money is not your biggest problem in our relationship.

[Hayden]

Like, when it comes to what I would want to talk about with our couples therapist. No.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor is literally telling us this is the biggest problem. To me, if something is the biggest problem to one partner, it's the biggest problem to both.

[Unknown Guest]

Sure.

[Unknown Host]

And the fact that your earnings have been cut by more than half, the fact that you gambled and hid it away, the fact that you have not managed to save or invest much even though your living expenses are totally covered. Like, how's that not top three or top problem?

[Hayden]

I think about if I do try and I go really hard for the finances and it still ends up not being good enough and she still leaves, how am I going to feel about that versus if I don't try at all and she leaves.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's. That's called self handicapping. That's what kids do the day before they have a test in college and they go, I'm just going to go out and get wasted. And then they get a bad grade and they go, see, I told you. Studying doesn't even work. It doesn't even make a difference. So I'm just going to keep going out. That's exactly the textbook definition of self handicapping. That's exactly what you're doing. I'm not going to try because if I try and I fail, then what does it say about me? Can you actually answer the question? If you try and then Taylor actually leaves, what does it actually say about you?

[Hayden]

Incompetent, not good enough, stupid, all the things.

[Unknown Host]

You're stuck in your own cycle, which is not helping you move forward. And meanwhile, you have a partner here who's saying, I need you in this. I need you to work on yourself. Because my expectations are that you come up to this level, not necessarily earning some crazy income but engaging with money. How does it feel when I say that out loud?

[Hayden]

It all feels fine. My biggest fear, again, is to say no to a good time or no to having fun, having experiences. And if the answer is, like, you can't, it's hard to sign up. It's hard to be, like, cool and okay with that.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Taylor, he has overcome so much, like, being in GA Every single week, not gambling. He's done that for a year. That is not easy. Like, that's really difficult. And for me to watch him do a lot of these really difficult things, but we can't seem to fix this money issue. It makes me feel like, oh, the problem is me. He doesn't prioritize me. That's why it's not important to him. And then I don't ever want to scare him and make him feel like I don't, like, recognize and appreciate the things that he has changed, because I do. And I know that some of his drawback is that he feels like the changes he does make, I just keep asking for more and more and more. I mean, I can do better on that part about being more grateful or appreciative when changes are made. At this point, I feel like I have been patient. I feel like I have tried to be there. I don't want to harp on the past, but, like, that gambling thing was awful for me. That hurt me. And I think I did a lot to try to rekindle things and try to fix things and, you know, want to continue to go from there. Like, that was really hard for me. And so it's not that I don't appreciate the things that have changed. It just feels like it's not enough to make up for what I felt during that time.

[Unknown Host]

What strikes me is when you say it's not enough. I think that when something happens in a relationship early on, that can be traumatic. It's really easy to live there for a long time. Those things have lasting effects. They've had it on both of you and on your relationship. When you say it's not enough, that connects with me, because I think your expectations are higher than what Hayden is delivering in terms of effort, engagement with money, that kind of thing. I think it would be difficult for me to hear. It's not enough to make up for what happened in the past. The past happened. From what I hear, Hayden, you're doing a really good job of being involved in ga Engaging with multiple therapists, like that is commendable. It's really hard. It's amazing. I do think that probably creating a vision of where you both want to go and actually setting your boundaries. Here's what this looks like. Here's what I need, and I hope that you can deliver that. I hope that you're the person for me, but if not, these are my boundaries. That is quite different than saying it's not Enough to make up for what happened in the past. But there's so many layers here. What would it take to feel like Hayden has skin in the game beyond the $100 a month?

[Taylor]

Like, what things would I would need to see from him?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

A plan, a solid plan that he's following, that is reoccurring, that's consistent. Because it's not that I need more money from him. I don't. I need it to look like this is important to him. I, that it is a priority, that he has created a system, that he's following it, that it's consistent. That's what I need.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, what do you hear Taylor saying right now?

[Hayden]

Yeah, I think what I hear Taylor say, and I've known this, it's not at all about the how much money I make. It's absolutely like what I do with it and how I manage it. Whatever that X dollar amount is, it doesn't really matter to her. But she needs to feel okay with us, you know, getting married and merging that money because now it's ours.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so how, how would she know that you are taking her request seriously?

[Hayden]

I think above anything else, consistency. I think that I've tried a whole bunch of stuff.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

Even that notebook that you saw that it was her idea to do. I've tried that, but I, I haven't been as consistent as I could be.

[Unknown Host]

How much of your relationship with money and like what you do in your relationship is just to get Taylor off your back so she stops asking you questions?

[Hayden]

Most of it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Hayden]

And I think that's the problem too.

[Unknown Host]

Hold on. Before you go into explaining, just sit with that for a second. What did you just say to me?

[Hayden]

Most of the things that I do with money is just to get Taylor off my back.

[Unknown Host]

So what do you guys want to do?

[Taylor]

I want to fix the holes. I would like to prevent future holes if we could. I know that things aren't going to be perfect and we're still going to have small spats, but I want so badly again for us to be able to even be close to the same page, same book. I want to make this work. I really do.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Aiden, what do you want to do?

[Hayden]

I want to marry Taylor. So whatever that takes, Whatever I've got to do to do that. I think that's the frustrating part.

[Unknown Guest]

Right?

[Unknown Host]

Whatever it is, I'm not. Okay. You want to do it so that she agrees to get engaged? Fine.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Is that the only reason? Is there anything for you to.

[Hayden]

Not really.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

This really stopped me cold When I asked Hayden why he wants to change, his answer was, I want Taylor to marry me. I think he means it, but it's not enough. When you're trying to make a major change with money, you can brute force it for a while. You can check your account every day, you can promise to appreciate your partner every morning. You can try harder to cut back on overspending. But real change, deep, lasting change, requires something way more than trying harder. You need a big, vivid, powerful reason that helps keep you on track when it gets hard. Maybe it's I'm tired of not being able to buy my kids a birthday gift every year, or I'm not gonna go to the grocery store anymore and wonder if there's money in my account at the checkout lane. Or I wanna go to my high school reunion with my head held high. And sometimes even those powerful reasons aren't enough. Think about it. People who are in life or death, medical conditions even, they often do not take their prescribed medication. That is how hard it is to change. Knowing that is why I push people so hard to get specific. Because these generalities like I need to try harder, they don't work, they don't change behavior. After a week or two, you just go right back to what you were doing. I want to hear specific, vivid reasons like this. I want my wife to smile when I walk in the door because I know I have gotten everything I need to do done with my finances. That's specific, it's emotional, it's real. Or better yet, I want to be proud of myself. I know others have taken control of their money, so I know I can too. This is what I'm trying to get Hayden to find his real reason. And until he finds that it's just for someone else. And it's hard to make that stick. Deep down, Taylor knows this. You'll hear her response in just a second. I've been in business for over 20 years and one of the key things that's kept me in the game is to keep learning new approaches. YouTube, TikTok, management, hiring, all of these things. I've taken week long classes. I took a leadership program at Disney, I took an accounting course at Columbia. But I don't always have time to step away for days or weeks to take a full course. That's why I really value my masterclass membership. I can just drop into a session when I want to learn something new, even if it's just 15 minutes at a time to learn about screenwriting, design, AI prompting, or whatever else I'm feeling that day. For $10 a month, billed annually, a masterclass membership gets you access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best. From Hans Zimmer to Alice Waters to Bob Iger. Instead of binge watching or doom scrolling, you can learn from the best to help become the best. One of my favorite masterclasses has been the home design class with Kelly Wurstler. I've always loved beautiful design, like in some of the luxury hotels that I really, really love. And I love when she took us behind the scenes of the proper hotel to show us how she designed that architecture working with the existing building in place. Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Ramit that's 15% [e-mail] Ramit masterclass.com.

[Taylor]

I hate that because I, I want him to want to do this because it's good for him, it's good for me, it's good for our potential family. He sees the benefits of all these things. I don't want him to just do that because he wants to marry me because that's not going to hold up forever. I don't want to be the only reason that you make good decisions. I want you to want to do this for you and our family and not just me.

[Hayden]

Well, I mean, yes, our family as well. I guess what I'm thinking about for me is I want to be married with Taylor and have a family. That's. That's how I'm doing it for me.

[Unknown Host]

I guess that's where, Hayden, you are trying to avoid looking inside and realizing the way that you need to change your relationship with money. And you're disguising it, you're camouflaging it by trying to please Taylor. Oh, if I just do this thing for Taylor, then she will get married to me.

[Ramit Sethi]

But what she really wants is for.

[Unknown Host]

You to improve yourself and your own relationship with money.

[Ramit Sethi]

She wants you to improve it whether you're together or not.

[Hayden]

I think my goal is similar to Taylor's. Fix the holes and prevent future ones. And I think if I'm being honest, the way that I kind of been going about it and the conversations that we have, I can see why for her, it's like the way that you want to fix these holes and prevent future ones is by me lowering my standards.

[Unknown Host]

What was the thing about lowering standards? Who needs to lower them? Taylor, what is happening? Hold on.

[Ramit Sethi]

What?

[Unknown Host]

Am I hearing this wrong?

[Hayden]

No, I think you are hearing it wrong.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Hayden]

Let me clarify I think everybody's hearing it wrong.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Taylor]

Okay.

[Unknown Host]

Let's take a second to clarify because I want to make sure I'm getting this right.

[Hayden]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So Taylor said, I want to fix this. I want to fix the holes. And then, Hayden, you said, I also want to fix the holes. I think the way to do that is.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what was the thing about lowering standards?

[Hayden]

Yeah, no, yeah, that's where you heard it wrong. I think that I want to fix the holes and prevent future ones. And I feel like with me and her having all of these conversations, something that I'm kind of seeing and something that she's also told me is that my way of going about that is having her lower her standards. I'm not saying that that's what should happen or that I want to do, but that has been, you know, we've been together almost four years now, and that's kind of what I've presented is like, you know, all right, I don't treat money how you want me to. Can you get over it? Basically.

[Taylor]

Right.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Unknown Host]

That's pretty insightful. Yeah. So she first starts off like, you know, I really want us to be partners.

[Ramit Sethi]

I really want us to be engaged.

[Unknown Host]

In this, talking about all the time. Okay, fine. Like, we're not going to do that. Okay, fine. Like, let me design this little cash wallet for you.

[Ramit Sethi]

I just want you to use that. Oh, you're not even using a cash wallet.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I just want you to contribute $100 a month. Can you do that?

[Unknown Host]

Gosh, it's like a downward spiral.

[Ramit Sethi]

I actually prefer an upward spiral.

[Unknown Host]

We're going to get better together.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're going to push each other. Our vision of a rich life is going to get bigger and bigger and richer and more expansive.

[Unknown Host]

Now, that's not for everybody. That's my philosophy. I knew that when I was dating one of the core values. I want to look for somebody who's interested in self development. They have to be willing to improve themselves. Could be through fitness, dance, money, whatever, because that's a core value of mine. I'm going to be wanting to improve myself.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is she?

[Unknown Host]

But if it's like a downward spiral, that's quite a different relationship. Taylor, what's going on right now?

[Taylor]

I'm feeling very heard, I'm feeling very seen because I feel like I've been so resistant to. I'm not going to change my standards. But, like, as you've talked, I feel like I kind of have been giving into that again to make the relationship work. And it's like I'm kind of looking at myself like, girl, stand up.

[Unknown Host]

Go on, stand up. And what?

[Taylor]

Like, either, really. I don't know how I'm going to make him but, like, make him figure it out or leave. Like, stop, Stop with the. I'm trying to fix it. I'm trying to fix it. It only works if we both want to fix it and we both are doing something to fix it. So it makes me feel like I'm just waiting around until eventually I just get upset enough that I'm like, I'm done.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

And I don't want that either. Because what I do want is if we are going to break up, I would at least like it to be no hostility, amicable, like.

[Unknown Guest]

Hayden. Huh? What do you hear?

[Unknown Host]

What do you hear Taylor saying?

[Hayden]

What I hear her saying is that she's already lowered her standards, and she's done that by really taking control. I think in an ideal world for her, I'd have it figured out just as much as she does.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, keep going.

[Hayden]

I also think that we both gotta want to fix it, but I think when it comes to me individually, I really have to be the one carrying most of that weight. And I think a struggle that I'm going to have is I don't know what I'm doing. So I'm going to slip. I'm going to fail at some things. Like, there's going to be times where I miss the mark. And I think.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It's interesting, Hayden, you've done this now several times where we talk about, you know, something to change, and your reaction is always to enumerate all the potential problems. A challenge we're going to face. Here's the problem. Here's the problem I've had. Here's the problem that I have right now, or she has the worst case. What about talking about the best case? You ever think about that?

[Unknown Guest]

No.

[Hayden]

No, I guess not.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, it's quite interesting. It's a very different vision of how the world works. It's just my general philosophy on life is like, we're going to make this good. So let's talk about what happens in the best case.

[Hayden]

Ali, in the best case, I just get my together. I think that's really it. I get my together. I grow up.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, let's do it right now. Like, literally right now in the next three minutes. You want to do it?

[Hayden]

Sure.

[Unknown Host]

All right, I'm gonna put your CSP up on screen. You tell me what you want to do with it.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Hayden]

Taylor makes about seven times more than I Do. So if our rent is $2015, I would like to contribute $288 a month to that. Ideally, that's what I would like to do.

[Unknown Guest]

Great.

[Unknown Host]

You want to contribute more to housing. I like that. What else?

[Hayden]

The sinking fund for the vacations. I think we can change that to $400.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so what really used to happen, at least according to the CSP, is you were spending over $400 more per month than you made. Did you know that?

[Hayden]

Yeah, yeah, I remember seeing that on.

[Unknown Host]

So that can happen, right? Like, how can you be spending more than you make when your partner is paying your rent? It just doesn't make any sense.

[Hayden]

I'm spending about what I make. That's what I would say.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, so what's the problem here?

[Hayden]

It's the amount of money that's available.

[Unknown Host]

That's correct. Okay, you don't make enough money right now. You make about $12 an hour.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

So what do you want to do?

[Hayden]

I'm working a lot. I'm working my part time job and I'm also doing the real estate a lot. What I can do, I feel like, is what I'm doing right now, which is being engaged in both jobs. So the second job that I have with the real estate, that was my only job last year. So me picking up the bartending is that second job. So I should be making more money.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, Taylor, is that enough for you?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

The. The planning is what's. I don't care what he does and what the jobs are. I just want to make sure that we have time for our relationship and for there to be some kind of conscious spending plan, if you will.

[Unknown Host]

You've talked about getting married in the next couple of years. What does that vision look like, Hayden?

[Hayden]

I think that it looks very secure. Without doubt, full of confidence and love.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, I like that.

[Unknown Host]

What about for you, Taylor?

[Taylor]

Yeah, I think that's perfect. Feeling good about our relationship, confident about our relationship, being able to communicate and it being positive and just trust.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Taylor, what do you think it would take for you to feel comfortable getting engaged?

[Taylor]

I think it would take consistent, what I would call responsible behavior with money. Like having a plan, sticking to the plan, having to make tough decisions and being able to do that.

[Unknown Host]

What do you need from Hayden specifically to trust him with money?

[Taylor]

I need for him to be spending less than he makes. I need him to be saving and investing for the future and thinking about our future and that being a priority financially.

[Hayden]

I'm not hearing anything new. She's pretty Consistent with her message on what she needs.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay, so.

[Unknown Host]

And do you have any responses to those things that she wants for me?

[Hayden]

I have to keep my happiness in check too. You know, I feel like that's what I've been worried about is how much am I willing to give up.

[Unknown Host]

What are you giving up?

[Hayden]

Well, bad habits, but also like, you know, some freedom.

[Unknown Host]

You both said you want to get married. You both said it's important to you. To me right now it doesn't seem like you're moving towards that. It seems like you are circling and there's elements of the past and there's.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just a lot of spinning and talking more about problems than solutions.

[Unknown Host]

We can't solve everything here today, but we could try to take a first step. What would that first step be? If you were really specific about what each of you is willing to commit to doing? Taylor?

[Taylor]

I will commit to being more appreciative of the changes that are happening. I can commit to trying to keep my own levels of worry and stress down so that I'm not panicking as much and trying my best to focus more on the future ahead and not so much about like him making up for the past.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay, how about you, Hayden?

[Hayden]

I think what I can commit to is just taking it more serious, trying to find ways to go and make more money and then it being a consistent thought on my mind and you know, setting goals, making plans and trying to better my financial situation.

[Unknown Host]

Aiden, do you want to change?

[Hayden]

Oh yeah, of course. I feel kind of overwhelmed since I've met Taylor, how much I've had to change. There's been a lot of self improvement and change that she's demanded from me. This is just something else.

[Unknown Host]

And how do you feel about that?

[Hayden]

I mean, you know, the feeling of not feeling good enough and stuff creeps in obviously, like if I'm having to change all of these things. But I think that the things that I have changed, being with Taylor have just made my life easier and it's made me a better person. So with that evidence, I guess why would this be any different?

[Taylor]

Something we've had to talk about is that the things that I've asked for him to change are not inherent parts of, of who he is. And I think it's important for him to realize that maybe doing some things that are irresponsible with money is not who you are. It's a habit that you have. Just because I've asked for you to change that doesn't mean that you are bad. It means that there are Some things that you do that might not be compatible with the goals that we have together. And so some things do need to change. That does not mean you are bad or you inherently are not good enough or that those are things that are a part of your identity.

[Hayden]

Thanks for saying that.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Hayden, how do you feel now versus when we started this conversation?

[Hayden]

I mean, I guess there's like a sense of enlightenment. I see where we stand right now.

[Unknown Host]

Where is that?

[Hayden]

I. I mean, the way it's coming across is it's make or break time time. Either I do it or I don't.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Taylor]

Do you have overall advice on specific things that we can do just to begin this kind of steps?

[Unknown Host]

I do. I do have specific advice. You know, this is the first time either of you have asked me, and I typically am not very directive, but you asked, so I will be. I think that you'll have to recalibrate your relationship dynamics, and that is hard. Like, consciously and unconsciously, we don't like change. And the question is, do we have a powerful enough vision to carry us through those difficult times? You obviously want to be together. That's clear. My specific suggestion would be that Hayden sets up a book club with money for couples, this book that he leads, the reading of that book, and that each week, the two of you go through two or three chapters, and he's the one driving it, setting up the meetings, reading it ahead of time, coming.

[Ramit Sethi]

Up with discussion questions, driving that. And Taylor, you're there.

[Unknown Host]

You're like, I'll answer anything, I'll participate, but I'm not going to lead it. I've done that for too long. I want to see you do it. I think that will be quite revealing because some people are ready to be partners and others are not. And I think, Hayden, if it's important to you, ultimately, bottom line, you'll do it. You'll find a way to do it. So that's the first thing I would do that's going to open up conversations about what are the two of you want? Like, how are you actually spending money today? Where should you change it? Probably income needs to change.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, that just needs to happen.

[Unknown Host]

And then that money needs to be reallocated correctly. And to me, getting the habits right now, when you two are not married, don't have children, like, that tells me so much. It tells me if you can do it now, you can probably do it even better as your family grows, as your income grows, as your complexity grows. But if you can't get it done right now, it's going to be really hard to change later. And you would pretty quickly know how it's going because you'll get through the book and you'll have a much more clarity on what to do or you won't get through the book. And that will be quite telling. That would be what I would do step by step. Hayden, do you have any questions that I can answer for you?

[Hayden]

I don't know if you're able to answer it, but I would really like some guidance on how I can change my mindset because I don't want the mindset that I currently have.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Hayden]

That's a big reason why we're like here. But it's hard to get out of your own head.

[Unknown Host]

Okay, you tell me.

[Hayden]

I tell you what, how could you do it? I've got to get really good at telling myself no. Telling others no. I guess I want to be there for me, you know?

[Unknown Host]

What does that mean?

[Hayden]

Like, I want to. I want to do good for me, not just for Taylor.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay. Just.

[Unknown Host]

I love that. I love that. Great question. I would do a couple of things. Number one, I would find a book and. Or a program that speaks to you. Read it, consume it, listen to it. First, you want to surround yourself with something that inspires you. Two, I would start to take a leadership role in something that you have been sitting in the back seat on. That's why I recommended you leading the conversations about money for couples. For too long you've been passive. You let Taylor lead everything and she's basically telling you, I'm sick of it and if I have to keep doing it, I'm out of here. That's what she's telling you. So the best way to solve that is to actually step up and take a leadership role. Lead and tell Taylor you set the standards. You say, listen, here's where I think I'm going to do a great job. Here's where I think I might not live up to my own standards, but I'm going to ask you to give me a little bit of grace.

[Ramit Sethi]

And you tell her exactly how many weeks because you've looked at the book.

[Unknown Host]

You'Ve looked at the table of contents and you made a plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's in Google Calendar. The invites are already sent. Basically, you're not waiting for her to.

[Unknown Host]

Save the day because she's not going to. That's what I would do. What you're noticing to change your mindset is often starting from the outside in. Start by setting those meetings. Start by leading, and start by creating a vision for yourself. What is the kind of man I want to be? What are the words that that man embodies? It's probably not passive. It's probably not waiting around. Start with those words. Start with learning, surrounding yourself with some positive mindsets. And then, most importantly, start with taking action.

[Hayden]

Act first.

[Unknown Host]

The mindsets will often follow. Ultimately, if the two of you want to get married and you want to make changes, you can.

[Unknown Guest]

All right, all right.

[Unknown Host]

I appreciate you both. I'm wishing you both the best.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you are struggling with how to even start a conversation like this with your partner, I've got a great free resource for you. It's called how to talk to your partner about money. It includes scripts to help you navigate the tough stuff without starting a fight. You can find [e-mail] partner I want to thank Taylor and Hayden for joining me and having some really difficult conversations today. And I want the best for them. I have to admit that I'm not confident that Hayden will make the vast changes necessary to create a shared vision of money, but I hope I'm wrong. I want to talk about something that I learned the hard way. Early in my career, I thought that success meant taking somebody who had a bunch of debt, showing them my fancy IWT ways, and then they come out of debt with a big old savings account. I thought if I didn't engineer that transformation, I was a failure. But after years of doing this, after a book and a Netflix show and all these conversations, I realized I can't force anybody to change. Some people are not ready and that's okay. And some people are. That's also great. Sometimes people don't need fixing. Sometimes they just need to tell their story. But when somebody is ready and when they have a clear reason, those changes can be fast and they can be deep and they can last. And that's why I'm still here with Hayden, because I think for the first time, I hope he might actually be ready. Now let's check out their follow ups.

[Taylor]

I think that I have to be better about letting Hayden take leadership with certain things, like him being an active participant because I think Ramit was absolutely right when he said here Taylor comes just to save the day. And I've got to make sure that I'm not doing that and I'm giving him the opportunity. As soon as we got off the meeting, he was doing a pretty good job of like going over numbers and then coming to me with what he thought he could do. And he's been bringing them up to me every so often. Rather than me bringing it up to him. So he's definitely been taking it seriously, like taking that leadership role and being an active participant. When it comes to finances, I have.

[Hayden]

Two big takeaways, and that's to drop the excuses and take immediate action. What I've done so far is I've restructured the conscious spending plan, I've restructured my envelope book, and I basically dissected all of my fixed costs and narrowed them down. There was a lot of fluff and things that I had to pay for, so I figured out like what I really needed to have paid every month. Those are my fixed cost. So I have formulated a plan to be debt free by August or sooner, dropping my fixed costs from 76% to 56%.