222. “My husband is my 4th child. Will he ever help?”

Summary

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 222: “My husband is my 4th child. Will he ever help?”

Release Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Fernie & George (Married, 25 years, three children, one with special needs)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the financial and emotional dynamics between Fernie and George, a couple married for 25 years who are struggling with overwhelming debt, a lack of shared financial responsibility, and conflicting attitudes toward money. Fernie, the self-described "sole manager" of the family's finances, shoulders the full burden of their chaotic money situation while George remains disengaged, defensive, and unaware of their dire financial reality. Throughout the emotionally charged session, Ramit unpacks the root causes of their financial distress—revealing a parent-child dynamic that threatens their marriage—and guides them toward accountability, communication, and urgent action.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Fernie's Burden and Breaking Point

• Situation: Fernie manages all finances for their family, including a son with significant special needs, yet feels she's “failing” everyone and at her physical and emotional breaking point.
  • “I will end up in a hospital... I constantly worry. I don't sleep, I overwork myself.” (03:27)
  • Fernie fears for their son’s future: “He's never gonna be able to provide for himself. ... He's always gonna be under our care.” (04:04)
• Impact: Chronic stress, sleeplessness, guilt, and health concerns.

2. George’s Disengagement and Money Avoidance

• George repeatedly confirms he’s not involved in daily finances: “I'm not informed... I go to work... that's how I see it.” (09:14)
• Ramit calls out George’s “avoider” tendencies (25:55), echoing themes from his book:

  “There’s a money type called the avoider. One of the techniques they use: ‘Babe, you’re better at this than I am. I trust you.’" (25:55)

3. Conflict Cycle: The Parent-Child Dynamic

• The family jokes Fernie has “four kids instead of three,” highlighting the imbalance (01:01, 62:00).
• Effect on Intimacy: Ramit notes, “The parent-child dynamic is really toxic. … Nobody wants to be intimate with a partner who is seen as a child.” (61:16)
• Fernie resents carrying the load: “Because he acts more like my kid instead of my partner, it's tearing our marriage... I’m not going to let stupid money ruin us.” (29:02)

4. Confronting Reality—and Each Other

• Ramit reviews their finances (02:50):
  • Assets: $331,000 (mostly home)
  • Investments: $12,000
  • Savings: $311 (!!)
  • Debt: $313,000
  • Net Worth: ~$31,000
  • Gross Income: $10,000/month
  • Fixed costs: 95% of income—“completely unsustainable” (02:52)
• Emotional impact: Fernie cries upon reviewing the numbers, feeling defeated and “overwhelmed” by debt and lack of emergency savings (36:10).
• Fernie admits: “What I'm doing is not working. I need to make sure that we're on the same page… I was trying to not see the big elephant in the room.” (54:58)

5. Communication Breakdown and Requests for Support

• Repeating Conflict Example: Fernie asks George to review the budget; George tries to escape to work. Fernie wants “partner support,” George wants to “make the number happen.”
  • “I want you to actually sit down, listen, support me, not run…because that's not going to solve anything." (13:24)

6. Exploring Beliefs and Family History

• Fernie’s people-pleasing comes up—she’s in therapy for her inability to say no (57:43), which affects her spending, especially on the kids.
• George’s financial immaturity ties back to his upbringing: he was financially supported by his parents until 25 and never learned to manage money or save (60:00).

7. Turning Point: Facing the Plan

• Ramit guides them to build a more aggressive, realistic budget:
  • Slash grocery spending from $1,000 to $400/month (81:49)
  • Cut subscriptions to Disney+, eliminate kids’ investments, stop vacation/gift funds (84:02)
  • Divorce income from “just enough” to aiming for more side hustle income (86:28)
  • Sell household clutter/toys for cash (93:00)
• Key advice: “Right now, it is red alert time. Time to change everything. …$311 in savings is unacceptable and the highest risk I’ve almost ever seen.” (80:40)

8. Action Steps & Commitment

• George defensively agrees to tasks (“I’ll do the basement”), but Ramit calls out his “try/if” language and lack of conviction.
  • “That word doesn't exist to me. … Do you find that you try to get away with as little as you can sometimes?” (93:56)
• Both Fernie and George express willingness to change, but George’s is more tenuous.
• Ramit: “You deserve more. And you’re not even giving it to yourself. … I’m trying to help you see how much you can achieve.” (95:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Fernie (On the spreadsheet):

  "I work on it every day. Two, three hours... It's kind of like a comfort seeing and, and trying to see when it's going to be over, but it never is." (16:55)

• George (On taking on more):

  “Because I believe so much in what—that she doing better than—I'm not going to be able to handle how she handles it, how good she does... I feel like I'm not good enough.” (25:21)

• Ramit (On George’s avoidance):

  “Avoiders also do things like avoid. When their partner tries to show them something, they'll...look at it... ‘Looks fine.’ They won't actually engage with it.” (26:26)

• Ramit (On fixed costs):

  “Your fixed costs are at 95%, which is completely unsustainable.” (02:52)

• Ramit (Calling out the dynamic):

  “We have the parent-child dynamic. And...it’s a joke in the family too, that I have four kids instead of three.” (62:00)

• Fernie (On money):

  “When I think of money, it could either bring safety, peace, tension, hardships.” (30:43)

• Fernie (On people-pleasing):

  “If they're in need and I'm still in financial trouble, I will still give them whatever I need to, to for them to be okay...it has cost me.” (57:32, 57:48)

• Ramit (On boundaries):

  “You’re going to have to go from fear to boldness. George, you’re going to have to go from trying to get away with as much as possible to actually saying, ‘I’m going to do this.’” (94:16)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:27 – Fernie describes her breaking point and health concerns.
• 09:14 – George admits complete non-engagement with family finances.
• 13:24 – Fernie asks George for support; he bolts for “work.”
• 16:55 – Fernie reveals her obsessive time spent on the spreadsheet.
• 25:55 – Ramit identifies George as a “money avoider.”
• 29:02 – Fernie’s resentment: “Because he acts like my kid...finances could break our marriage.”
• 54:58 – Fernie finally confronts the reality: “What I'm doing is not working.”
• 62:00 – The family’s “four kids” joke—the parent/child dynamic exposed.
• 80:40 – Ramit gives the urgent call to action: “$311 in savings is unacceptable.”
• 86:28 – Discovery that side hustle money can change their financial picture.
• 93:56 – Ramit challenges George on his lack of accountability.
• 95:16 – Ramit’s final push: “You deserve more...”

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Actionable Advice & Change Plan

• Immediate expense reduction: Drastically cut groceries, subscriptions, gifts, and discretionary spending.
• Emergency fund focus: Shift resources to building 6–12 months of savings (aim: $30k–$60k).
• Debt attack: Use side hustle and extra income to accelerate debt payoff, use Ramit’s debt calculator to build a timeline.
• Sell clutter: Declutter the home, sell toys and unused items for cash and psychological relief.
• Change communication habits: Replace spreadsheet “sitting” with joint monthly walks to discuss finances.

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Episode Follow-Up (Post-Taping Updates)

(100:00–101:23)

• Fernie & George refinanced their home (7% → 5%) and car loan, reducing monthly payments.
• Cut phone bill by switching carriers, saving $144/month, and cancelled all but Disney+.
• Paused college fund savings; shifted to emergency fund ($350 biweekly target).
• Paid off two credit cards; George picked up more hours; Fernie found joy and side income crocheting.
• Biggest change: shifted conversations away from tense spreadsheet sessions to joint, lighter discussions—using walks to connect and plan.

  “We want to thank you all for the help. And it's a work in progress. I'm getting more involved.” – George (99:46) “So far, we’re moving in a great direction. So I want to thank you all.” — Fernie (101:13)

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode is raw, honest, and sometimes confrontational. Ramit brings both empathy and tough love, pushing the couple to recognize their entrenched roles and the unsustainability of continuing in denial. The episode provides a powerful look at how money is tied to identity, partnership, and familial legacy—offering hope that even long-standing patterns can shift with honesty, partnership, and a plan.

For listeners: If you feel alone in your financial struggles or stuck in a relationship dynamic that doesn’t serve you or your family, this episode shows both the difficulty and necessity of confronting reality, asking for help, and building a new vision together.

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Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

If money is stopping you from moving to the next step in your relationship, then I want to see you at one of my events this September. I'll be talking with couples who have been married for 10 years. I'll be talking with couples who are on their second date live on stage, totally unscripted and raw. I'll be in Atlanta September 14th and.

Los Angeles September 26th.

Get more info and tickets by visiting iwt.com events.

Did you and your partner buy a.

House and now you are quietly wondering if it was a huge mistake? Maybe the payments feel impossible or one of you is panicking. If this is you, I want to help. I am casting couples for a new season of Money for Couples and we are only doing interviews for the next few weeks. Podcast session is basically a two or three hour coaching session with me. It's 100% free and this round of applications is going to close soon. If you are feeling anxiety about your new house, let's talk apply [e-mail] apply.

[Fernie]

It'S a joke in the family too that I have four kids instead of three. Pretty apparent.

[George]

I don't know why I'm not engaged with money.

[Fernie]

I don't want people to see him like as my child. I don't want that disrespect.

[George]

In my mind it is, it is working, but in my heart I know it's not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you understand that I will stay on this call for five years before I speak and make it easier for you? You're leading this, not me.

[George]

I try sometimes, but yeah, it always backfire.

[Fernie]

It kind of me off because our relationship is so great, but because he acts more like my kid instead of my partner and that kind of me off that finances or that money would break our marriage.

[Ramit Sethi]

Today is one of the most difficult conversations that I've had on this podcast and I want to apologize in advance for losing my temper a couple of times. I always want to make this a welcoming conversation even if I disagree with some of the things that my guests say. So I'm going to ask you to be respectful in the comments. Remember that it takes a lot of courage to come on this show. Today I'm speaking with Fernie and George. They're 44 and 48 years old, married for 25 years, and every month they spend more than they make. Fernie applied because as the sole person who manages their day to day finances, she feels like she is failing their three children, one of whom has special needs. She's desperate to get George to help her manage the money. But nothing seems to work. He just won't do it. I'm looking at their conscious spending plan right now, which breaks down their net worth, income and where they spend their money. You can download and create your own conscious spending plan or [e-mail] SLCSP assets 331,000 investments 12,000 savings $311.

That's a huge red flag. Debt?

$313,000. Total net worth is 31,000. And their gross monthly income is $10,000. By the way, their fixed costs are at 95%, which is completely unsustainable. Let's get into today's conversation.

Fernie, I understand that you and George are raising three children and one has special needs. And money has been a big concern for you. If nothing changes from the situation you are in today, what will happen?

[Fernie]

I will end up in a hospital.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that?

[Fernie]

Because I constantly worry. I don't sleep, I overwork myself. And I've even been told by my medical doctor to put attention to it. There's. There's no way, physically, mentally, anything, possible to keep going the same way I'm going. And. And it just terrifies me of where my son will end up if we don't wake up.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that?

[Fernie]

Because he's never gonna be able to provide for himself. He's never gonna be able to live on his own. He's just not capable. He's always gonna be under our care. And it just dawned on me when he turned 18 that he's not gonna be one to move away. And if we don't do something about it, if we don't look out for his future, he's gonna end up God knows where. And that. That brings me a lot of guilt.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, what does it feel like hearing this?

[George]

So I feel the same way she's feeling right now. Feel like I need to her and give her a hug and say, I'm. I'm. I'm with you. I understand. That's how I feel right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. And do you share the concerns she has about your son?

[George]

Yes, to a certain point. Because I'm more optimistic. I'm very, you know, everything's going to be great now. Things are not going to go wrong. He's going to have a great life. We're going to do great things. I'm positive. I'm always like, you know, I don't see her concerns because I feel like we are going to do the right things for him.

[Ramit Sethi]

Has this caused conflict between the two of you? George, being what you Describe as optimistic and Fernie taking on so much burden and stress that it causes you physical maladies. Fernie says yes.

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

And how long has this been going on for? I'm going to guess the entire relationship. I know.

[George]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, that's interesting. Fernie said yes and George said no because he's optimistic. Go ahead, George.

[George]

Yes. I don't feel like being like this, like, our entire relationship. We've been married for 25 years. I mean, we've got the beginning. We didn't have a lot of. We were young. We didn't have responsibilities that we have right now. And definitely things change. So I feel like it has changed throughout, but not since the beginning.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, you mentioned that your son has special needs. Would you be comfortable sharing whatever feels okay with you?

[Fernie]

Yeah. So he was born premature. He was born at 23 weeks, so he spent about six months in the NICU. And with that came a severe brain bleed that caused him to have cerebral palsy. He has cerebral palsy. He has epilepsy. So he. Even though he's 18, he's like a little kid. He's not able to walk unassisted. He's in a wheelchair. He has a lot of medical appointments and stuff. But, I mean, considering they had told us he was going to be in a vegetative state for the rest of his life. He's not. He's bilingual, so he speaks English and Spanish, so he's doing good considering what they had told us. But he's still, you know, he's very limited.

[Ramit Sethi]

I see. Okay. Thank you for letting me know that. I did not know that. Can you share how your son has affected your finances together?

[Fernie]

Oh, boy. He's the reason why I went back to school. So we were carefree. We. Like he said, we got married very young once he was born, and I saw everything that it took for him to be in the hospital and all the bills, and I started seeing the. The financial strain that it was going to cause and that we weren't going to be able to make it on just minimum wage to meet his needs. So that's when I started to kind of wake up. And I didn't even have high school, so I had to go back, get my ged, and I got the bachelor's master's and started to find a way to provide a better future for him.

[George]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well done. I mean, that's. That's an incredibly tough situation, and it's to have gone and gotten your high school degree and then on and on in advanced degrees. Is very impressive. You said in your application that, quote, if something happened to you, George wouldn't know what to do. Can you give me an example of that?

[Fernie]

He has no idea, like, where all my information, of all the bills that I pay, of all our finances. I know he says, like, you should have more confidence in me, but he has absolutely no idea where. If we have life insurances, if we have stocks, if we have investments, if we have where, the 401ks, the logins, anything. He doesn't know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, George, what would you say your level of awareness around the family finances is?

[George]

She's right. She's right. I am not informed.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that?

[George]

I feel like I'll be able to find the information and get access to it if it's needed, but I don't feel like I need to get to that info at the moment. You know what I mean?

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you not involved in the managing the family money?

[George]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Do you, do you care?

[George]

Yeah, I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do you say it like that? You say like, yeah, like, of course I care, but you're not involved at all. How come?

[George]

I don't know. I mean, I, I, I, I go to work, I try to make the best of bringing money in, and I know what it needs to get paid. I need, I, we get together and we do. So I guess my, my way of trying to care is like, go and work. Go make the money. Go bring it in. And that's how I see it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have the two of you had this conversation and, oh. Agreed on each of your roles with money?

[Fernie]

It just kind of landed this way.

[Ramit Sethi]

How would you describe it, Fernie? The roles that each of you has with money.

[Fernie]

I don't know how to say it without being hurtful. And that's where I have trouble because I don't, I don't want to be hurtful. I don't want to say the wrong things. And I have trouble trying to find the right words to say it. Not that he doesn't care, but it's, He's, I guess, too optimistic to. Like I said before, it'll work out. We will find a way. But that's because it's always me on the background figuring out the way, finding the way, looking at, moving things around to make it work. And it just makes me very upset because it doesn't feel like he's taking it seriously.

[Ramit Sethi]

When was the last time this happened?

[Fernie]

A week ago.

[George]

A week ago.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Do you remember where you were exactly?

[George]

And the living room.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What was happening? Can we recreate the Situation. Whoever began that conversation, go ahead and do the same thing right now. I'll just listen in.

[Fernie]

So I was looking at the budget, and we're going to have to make $500 this week to be able to make the payments and be able to get ahead. We are probably not going to make it till payday, so we're going to have to kind of put it money in before then. I want to sit down with you so we can take a look and try to figure out how we can plan it in the next couple of months to make it easier for me.

[George]

And I was like, well, then I need to. I need to start going. I need to go to work. Let me just go log in and start making money. And to stop me. No, you need to sit down. We need to talk about this. And I'm like. But we. I need to go. I can't stop and chitchat. I need, like, I need to. I feel like I need to go.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what happened?

[Fernie]

I got frustrated, angry. I closed my laptop, and I just went upstairs to start crunching numbers.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, thank you. That was very helpful. So, Fernie, you're. You're going after him, Almost beseeching him. Here's my. Here's the numbers, here's the spreadsheet, here's the budget. And, George, you're going, like, closing down. Okay, I see that. And at this moment, what does each of you want at that very moment? Fernie?

[Fernie]

Partner support.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thank you. And George, what do you want at that very moment?

[George]

I want to make the call. I want to get what she. What? The number. She said I want to make it happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's what I. What does Fernie want in this very moment? She just told us.

[George]

She wants me to. To work together.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yep. And what do you think she wants?

[George]

She wants me to make it happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

Look at her face. What is she doing right now?

[George]

She's saying that.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does she really want?

[George]

I don't know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ask her.

[George]

But do you really want.

[Fernie]

I want you to, like, actually sit down, listen, support me, not run. Because the first thing you want to do is run. And that's not going to solve anything. Because what if I am wrong? What if I did things wrong and I'm not seeing it because I am so blinded by being so deep in it. So I would like for you to slow down, sit down, look things over with me, and figure out a way to move forward without me having to figure out everything for us. And just say, here's what you need to do, because that's not my job, George.

[George]

Okay. I'm willing to do that. I want to do that. Definitely. I want to slow down.

[Ramit Sethi]

Then Fernie said that she wanted connection. She wanted you to slow down and to talk with her, to listen. Looking now at you in that conversation, what did you really want at that very moment?

[George]

To really listen.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, you didn't. You didn't want to listen. You didn't listen. What did you actually want?

[George]

I don't know.

[Ramit Sethi]

You wanted it to be over.

[George]

Kind of. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You wanted it to be over. You wanted the conversation to end. You wanted to run out the door so you could start earning money. And that's exactly what happened. She closed her laptop. And then you got that feeling of relief. Correct me if I'm wrong. What do you think?

[George]

Yes. Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

How come you didn't say that? I'm curious.

[George]

Maybe I don't see it. I don't see it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tell me more.

[George]

Yeah. Like, to me, I'm. I was like, I believe that she got the numbers right. I'm very confident on what she's saying to me. So to me, it's like, this is what it needs to be done. Go do it. You know, it's like, I guess I am leaving out the weight onto her. That's what it is.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right away, you could see what's happening here. George is not involved in the family finances.

[Fernie]

He.

[Ramit Sethi]

He doesn't track the accounts. He doesn't know the logins. He doesn't even know how much money they have. But the deeper issue is that he doesn't think this is a problem. To him, bringing in income is enough. Basically, it's, I go to work. That's my role. But the moment that Fernie asks him to sit down and look at the numbers, did you catch what he does? He runs. He says, I need to go to work. This is essentially a way of escaping. And we could talk about all the layers beneath this, the layers of identity and gender and culture. But the bottom line is he avoids money. And what's worse, he thinks that saying, I need to go to work is actually helpful. But Fernie isn't asking him to go to work. She's asking him to make a plan together. Fernie is not particularly skilled at managing their finances. She uses a massive spreadsheet with multiple tabs, hundreds of columns. She actually showed it to me. Most of the numbers were in red. And even looking at it, I felt overwhelmed. Listen. Now as I press her on this spreadsheet that she obsesses over every single day.

Fernie, you mentioned this Spreadsheet that you showed to George?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

If I can guess, Fernie, you work on this a lot? Every month. How often? How many hours you put into this per month?

[Fernie]

I work on it every day.

[Ramit Sethi]

How long?

[Fernie]

Two, three hours.

[Ramit Sethi]

At least three hours a day on that spreadsheet?

[George]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

Yes, because I have to keep moving numbers from the months that are coming because something happens. So then I have to adjust everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, can I ask you a difficult question? Why do you do it?

[Fernie]

I think it's a comfort at this point. It's kind of like a comfort seeing and, and trying to see when it's going to be over, but it never is.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you open up your computer every day and you look at the. You look at the numbers, what do you feel?

[Fernie]

Red.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does that feeling change before you see the numbers? Like right in the morning when you're.

[Fernie]

Opening that laptop like a pending doom.

[Ramit Sethi]

You ever try to book a doctor.

And you get stuck in that ridiculous back and forth dance? You call them.

The receptionist says what day works for you?

Oh, whatever's earliest.

How about Tuesday at 10am?

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[Fernie]

It just feels like a pending doom and I want that doom to be over. And I try to move numbers around to make me feel better, to make me feel like there's gonna be an end and if I do this, there we're gonna get to the end of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

When do you feel good about your money?

[Fernie]

The only time I feel good is when I'm able to provide for what my kids need and I get them something that they need. Other than that, money at this point right now is just a curse, an anxiety.

[Ramit Sethi]

I hate hearing that. I'm so glad we get a chance to talk because even if you're in debt or even if there are all these circumstances, I still want people to feel in control of their money.

[George]

Right?

[Ramit Sethi]

You can have a bad situation and still be in control, because at least you have a plan. I don't see a plan right now. What I see is treading water, and if I stop moving my arms around and kicking my legs, we are going to sink. Fernie is nodding. George is nodding as well. George, what do you think from everything you just heard Fernie describe?

[George]

I feel the same way. I actually. I feel like every time we see our plan and it's not changing, it is. Is. It could go really bad. And that's why we need to. We need to be not on red numbers. We need to be off red numbers.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Would you say that you are truly engaged, or are you a spectator?

[George]

A little bit about both.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, tell me about both. Tell me about the engaged part.

[George]

Engaged, because I. I want to work towards our goal, and I. I'm looking for what is it that we need for this week? You know, and the part of me being the expectator is that I let her do all the work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is it hard for you to get engaged with the finances in general?

[George]

I feel like it's like I can't do it. She's more capable.

[Fernie]

It was that bad.

[Ramit Sethi]

Friennie, how come you're answering for George?

[Fernie]

I do it unconsciously.

[Ramit Sethi]

He doesn't deal with the money. So you deal with the money. He doesn't want to talk about the spreadsheet. You close the laptop and go away, which is what he wants. He's trying to answer my question. I think he's doing a pretty good job. You jump in and answer for him.

[Fernie]

Yep. Sorry about that. I'm sorry I interrupted you. I tend to do that a lot. I'm sorry.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you both know why this dynamic happens?

[Fernie]

There's a lot of tension around finances. I get very tense. I get very anxious. I get very triggered.

[Ramit Sethi]

What have you done to break out of this pattern? I'm curious.

[Fernie]

I work more.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're like, if I work harder, if I plug in more numbers, maybe I can find a way to get us out of this. If I spend three hours, not two, I'll figure out how to stay ahead of the impending doom. George, is it the same for you? Like, I'm going to work. I'm going to work. I'm going to make more money. Bring that money home.

[George]

Yes. That's the way I'm making more money. And then we're doing extra work outside of regular jobs. So, yeah, that's kind of like our mindset right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

One of the things I asked you to do before we spoke was to create a Conscious spending plan together and to put your numbers in there. Were you able to do that?

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow. Deep breath from Fernie. Bernie. Why. Why you take that deep breath? That came from the diaphragm. What is that?

[Fernie]

Because it's. It's. I mean, I put him to sleep. He was asleep, he was falling asleep, and he had no idea. It. It's the same dynamic where I was asking him things and he was just answering. But not because he wanted to be engaged, not because he wanted to answer. He. It's something he had to do.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, is that true?

[George]

Yeah, it is true.

[Ramit Sethi]

Help me understand that, like, you're coming on this show, right? You know, that you're going to talk to me what's going through your mind when you talk about the csp?

[George]

Because I believe so much in what? That she doing better than. I'm not going to be able to handle how she handles it, how good she does, what she does. I'm not at that level. You know what I mean? So I, of course, I get. I give it all to her and I give her, like, you know, the responsibility, but I guess it's because I feel like I'm not good enough to do it.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, in the book that I just wrote, Money for Couples, there's a money.

Type called the avoider.

They avoid money at all costs. They avoid talking about it, they avoid dealing with it. They avoid it. And one of the techniques that they use is they tell their partner, babe, you're better at this than I am.

I trust you.

Me, I'll just mess it up. But you, you're so much better. That's why you're good. You're. You've got it handled. Does that sound familiar? To what you do with Fernie?

[George]

Yeah, to the.

[Ramit Sethi]

To the T. Yeah. Avoiders also do things like avoid. When their partner tries to show them something, they'll look at it. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's fine. Looks fine. They won't actually engage with it. That's why when I asked you when was the last time you disagreed with a number, you said, never.

[George]

I know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Until their partner closes the laptop and goes upstairs and the avoider gets to say, perfect, I just bought myself another couple of days of avoiding money. Does this sound familiar?

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is this working for you, George?

[George]

Obviously not. And then I don't want this to continue.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. It's not obvious to me, because right now it seems like, financially speaking, it's okay for you. You go to work, you do your work, you come home, and then that's it. Everything's handled. Finances are fine as far as you're concerned. It will be fine. We'll pull through. We always have. So it's not obvious that it's not working. To me, it actually seems like it's working pretty well for you, financially speaking.

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So which is it? Is it working or is it not working?

[George]

In my mind, it is. It is working. But in my heart, I know it's not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, what's your reaction hearing that?

[Fernie]

Story of my life. I guess it's very comfortable for him, and it's easy, and I've made it easy for him. And it was a lot easier when it was just three of us, but we multiplied into five, and it's. It's. It's becoming a bigger burden, and it's taking a toll on my health, and that's what I'm concerned about. And I tell them, like, you have to take care of what's taking care of you. And you seem to be neglecting that.

[Ramit Sethi]

How many times do you think you've said that?

[Fernie]

We've been to counseling because I've had nervous breakdowns. It's been so bad.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm sorry to hear that. I'm glad that you're in counseling. Are you still in it?

[Fernie]

No, because I was getting nowhere with that. And couples counseling, it was pointless.

[Ramit Sethi]

How long did you go for?

[Fernie]

Two months.

[Ramit Sethi]

Two months. That's it?

[Fernie]

He started great. He started doing the work, and then he got comfortable and stopped trying to go and figure things out and get involved. It went back to, well, you do a great job, so keep chugging along.

[Ramit Sethi]

When he. When he dropped that ball, when George said, you're doing great, whether it's with the finances or the work that you were doing in therapy, in what ways did you pick that ball back up?

[Fernie]

I have no choice. Well, I do have a choice, but makes me more upset that it. That finances or that money would break our marriage. It kind of pisses me off because our relationship is so great, but because he acts more like my kid instead of my partner, it's tearing our marriage and that kind of me off. And I think, no, I'm not gonna let stupid money ruin us. And I try to pick the ball up because I don't want it to ruin us.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. I love that energy you just brought. That was the first time I heard you get truly engaged. It me off. Good. I like hearing that somebody off might be willing to make a change. And then I was with you. It me off that money is going to be the thing to drive us apart. Okay, I'm with you. And then at the very last minute, you.

You veered left. So then I pick up the ball.

And take it all on back on myself because.

[Fernie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can we just do that again? It me off and then this time turn right instead of left.

What would right be?

[Fernie]

I want for this to him off to. To the point where he sees that it could break our marriage and that something like that shouldn't break our marriage. It's stupid. We've been through so much.

[George]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

And for finances to be our doom, it's ridiculous.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I ask you. Now I'm getting curious. Why does. Why does money really you off? When you think of money, you think of like, what comes to mind? Is it. Is it that spreadsheet that comes to your mind when you think of money?

[Fernie]

When I think of money, it. It. To my mind, it comes in two. It could be. It could either bring safety, peace, tension, hardships.

[Ramit Sethi]

I want to take a look at the csp. So from my understanding, Fernie, you brought up the fact that you needed to do the csp. Correct.

[Fernie]

Correct.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then you brought it to George, and George, you were not particularly interested. Is that a fair assessment?

[George]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Who did the work to put the CSP together?

[Fernie]

I did.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Any collaboration?

[Fernie]

I asked them.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, you, you asked him what, like.

[Fernie]

The questions if I needed a number, like, hey, can you look it up? Kind of stuff like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are we ready to play, like, play ball here or are we like, operating like there's a two year old in the room? Because I don't see a 2 year old in this room.

[Fernie]

No, I want him to feel engaged. I want to make it. I guess it's not very exciting, but I want him to. To. To kind of want the same things I want. Like, and I know he kind of does, but I. I don't. I don't want to feel like I'm talking to a wall.

[George]

I see that now.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, I think you're giving me the answers you think I want to hear.

[George]

No, no, no, I think.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think you're doing the same thing you do with Fernie. Fernie's nodding her head, trying. You're avoiding. And inside, deep down, you're like, I want this conversation to be over as quickly as possible. I want Ramit to shut his laptop so this can end and I can buy five more days of not talking about money. And so you are giving me every answer you think that I want to hear. Twitter, George, I don't need you to answer what I Want to hear. I'm here to help you, but I can't help you and you, Fernie, unless you are both honest with me. George, do you see that happening here?

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm not going to fix you. You are going to fix your situation, not me.

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

At this point, I'm starting to get frustrated. I've tried being patient. I've tried listening. I've tried asking questions in different ways, but George keeps doing the same thing. He's telling me what he thinks I want to hear. He's saying, I care. I'm trying. She's just better at it than me, honestly. I don't mind someone not knowing the details of personal finance. I don't even mind people who come on this show having never read my book. That's most people in America.

I don't mind it.

But the lack of interest is really.

Starting to irritate me.

Your wife is overwhelmed. She's telling you this is a 10 out of 10 problem and you're just here repeating tired old phrases. If you are watching this and you've been in this situation, it can feel maddening. I put together a free mini course to give you the tools to change this dynamic. It's called Money Made Easy and you can Download [e-mail] MoneyPod the challenge with George now is getting him to actually engage. So I'm gonna shift tactics. Let's see what happens when I shift the burden onto him.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to pop this CSP up on screen and I'm actually going to turn it over to the two of you. I would like to hear the two of you diagnosing your conscious spending plan. Almost as if you are floating above it and looking at it as if it was someone else's. I'm going to leave it to you to diagnose your own csp, because this is different than lying back with your hands above your head saying, fix me this. This is actually the two of you working together. I'm going to ask George to take the lead on this, not Fernie. Here we go. Go ahead.

[George]

Okay, so assets, that's the amount that we have current in value. So we have $331,000 investments. We have 12,736 savings. We have $311 and debt with 313,000 and debt. So total net worth is only 31,047. I mean, $47.

[Ramit Sethi]

31,047 for total net worth. Okay, before we continue, well done, George. What is your Analysis of those numbers. What. What do you think I need to say more? Got to go deeper than that.

[George]

Definitely. We need to remove that debt so those assets can be positive money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you understand that? I will stay on this call for five years before I speak and make it easier for you. You're leading this, not me. Keep it moving.

[George]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[George]

So we need to increase on saving investments. We need to work on investment. We definitely need to have that debt off our back so we can have the assets to be positive. And our monthly gross income right now is not helping. We need to make more money. Monthly income? Yeah. That's what we need to do to be able to fix the.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you understand about these numbers?

[George]

Not a lot to tell you.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's pretty evident. I mean, you were essentially reading off what was on the screen. What I'm looking for is what does it mean? What does it mean? The fact that you have three kids and you have $311 in savings. What does that mean?

[George]

It's not enough.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. It's not enough. What does it mean? What if one of you gets sick? Hold on. Let's pause. Fernie. Fernie, is. I noticed you suddenly started crying. Fernie, you want to take a break?

[Fernie]

Sorry. Because this is hard. This is what I've been trying to make him see that it's. It's not okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I'm gonna. I'm gonna help that. But I'm curious. What is going on with you that caused you to suddenly start crying?

[Fernie]

We only have $300 in savings that doesn't even cover food for a day. I mean, it's. It's insane. It's hard. It's just hard. And it's been hard for a while, and it's been very heavy on my shoulders.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, I can see that. I can see it's overwhelming.

[Fernie]

It is.

[Ramit Sethi]

Will you trust me to try to help get you at least both towards a closer, similar page?

[Fernie]

Oh, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. George, what do you notice about Fernie's reaction there?

[George]

I should scare.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[George]

Because we're in the trouble. We don't have enough money. We have no positive money to work with.

[Ramit Sethi]

And your lack of engagement with the conscious spending plan, how do you think that affects her? Your wife is crying. She's sick, and it doesn't seem like you've made any changes. Can you explain that? Why?

[George]

I don't. I don't. I don't know what you mean. That haven't. I mean.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean, you didn't do the csp. You don't even know what these numbers mean? Yeah, this is like the bare minimum. This is like there's 20 numbers on this page. They're very easy. One of my favorite phrases to use in my company is check the box and move on.

Just think about all the things that are on your to do list. And they've been sitting there for months, sometimes years now. Imagine instead of thinking you need time to get it perfect.

You just get it done.

It's handled now, so you can check.

The box and move on.

A great example of this is estate planning. A lot of people put this off. What's a trust? Do I need a will? I don't know where to go. But once this is done, there is.

Total peace of mind in knowing that it's handled. That's why I recommend trust and will.

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You didn't do even that. Why? I'm not trying to blame you. I'm trying to understand.

[George]

I don't know why. I don't know why I'm not engaged with money.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean, what's the worst that's going to happen?

[George]

I don't want to leave it out after her.

[Ramit Sethi]

But you've been doing that for the last 24 years.

[George]

Because I trust her.

[Ramit Sethi]

She doesn't want to do it herself. She can't do it herself. Okay, Fernie, I'm going to Speak to you directly. What are you noticing going on here?

[Fernie]

I mean, he's doing what he always usually does. Like, if ignorance is bliss, if it's. If I don't speak about it, if I don't engage in it, it'll eventually go away and everything will be how it usually is. And I. I take some blame in it because I should have pressured Maura. Maybe I should have been more outspoken and not let it get to this point, but it was easier for me to just do it than to wait for him to realize it.

[Ramit Sethi]

And now you took that pressure off 20 years ago. You took it all on yourself. And now what is the effect of that?

[Fernie]

Yeah, now I'm sending myself to the grave. I'm, like, burning the candle at both ends and dowsing it with a lighter fluid.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you want a change?

[Fernie]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you want to change?

[Fernie]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

I know you want him to change, but I'm not asking about that. I'm asking, do you want to change?

[Fernie]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Fernie]

I do. I. It's not healthy for me to not change.

[Ramit Sethi]

What changes? Are you willing to make any changes.

[Fernie]

That I need to make to make it better.

[Ramit Sethi]

Anything.

[Fernie]

Anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Really?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

These are the greatest words I ever hear on this podcast. Somebody who comes and says, I'm willing to change, I'm willing to do anything.

If it's going to help get what I want.

Is that what you're telling me?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I'll play ball with that. I love that. If you are telling me you are willing to make any changes in order to have your partner potentially be more engaged with you, I'm down with that. George, I'm worried, actually, about asking you this question, because I think you're just going to tell me you're willing to change everything, but you don't even know why you would make a change.

[George]

Yes, I know. I want my wife to be happy.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you wanted your wife to be happy, you would have picked up the slack 20 years ago. She's been talking about this for decades, so I don't think that's really that powerful of a reason for you. Okay, she's unhappy. Look at her. She's literally telling you. You can see it on her face. She's saying, I'm unhappy with the way things are. Do you see that?

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

She's been that way for a while, right?

[George]

Yes, she's been like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

You haven't done anything about it, right?

[George]

I try sometimes, but. Yeah. And it always backfire.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't think so. I. I don't believe that story, I try sometimes, but it backfires. So I have to go back and just keep to myself. I don't believe that.

[George]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you?

[George]

I believe it. Yes.

[Fernie]

Fernie, in his mind he. He wants to believe that he's trying and that he's trying to make me happy. But he's not. He hears me. He doesn't listen.

[Ramit Sethi]

What I'm hearing is that Fernie says she's willing to make any changes. I'll take you at face value and George, we'll see. Let's see what unfolds as we start to talk more about these numbers. So we know that you have $31,000 of net worth, which includes only $311 in savings. Your income, your combined gross monthly income is $10,866 or $130,000 a year. Which of you knew that you make $130,000 a year? Fernie knew it, George.

[George]

I knew that we were over 100, but not 130.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's a no. That's 50%. I'll take it. I noticed that your take home pay is like half of your gross income. Why is your net so low?

[Fernie]

We're making sure that we leave enough for taxes because we are doing the side hustles and we don't want to end up paying a lot of taxes on that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's continue on your fixed costs. 95%. What do you think about that?

[Fernie]

A lot.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's too high. You're broke.

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

This section alone indicates that you are spending more than you make. Right there. That's the end of the ball game right there. Let's just continue on to see the rest. Investments are at 5%. It appears you're doing $280 a month in post tax. Are you doing any pre tax stuff like 401k?

[Fernie]

Yes, yes we are.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who's 401k?

[Fernie]

Both of us.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much are you putting in?

[Fernie]

We're putting 5% each. Very little.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Fernie]

And mine is actually. Mine is actually different because the way my company is doing it is I'm paying towards my students student loans and they're matching that in 401k. That's a great benefit that they have. So I'm really paying my student loans, but they're matching that in 401k.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's cool. What's it called? I never heard of that.

[Fernie]

They just started this last year and it's a student debt match.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, that's great. All right. I like that. So let's just say just so we get A number here. All right, so you are investing decent amount. You know, like we're talking about like 16%, et cetera, depending, certainly over 10 savings are at 10%. You're putting some money aside for vacations, putting some for gifts, and $100 a month for a long term emergency fund. You just started that, right?

[Fernie]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

One of the things that I love to be able to do is to help people get out of that pattern where no matter how much you try to get ahead, something knocks you backwards. And there is a way, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. It often takes radically. Reconceptualizing your relationship with money means you need to look at it in a whole new way, which I hope that we get a chance to do. Let's go down now to everything else. Or guilt free spending. It says negative 11%. I don't believe that number. That's just what the CSP calculates. Y' all eat out?

[Fernie]

Rarely, but we do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, when was the last time you ate out?

[Fernie]

A couple of days ago we took the kids to Burger King.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what about before that?

[Fernie]

We took them to McDonald's.

[Ramit Sethi]

How long before that?

[Fernie]

A week before that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so rarely is once a week.

[George]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that's the kids. You take them once a week to eat out or more.

[Fernie]

Yes. No, it's, it's, we try to at least once a week because we're always working.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what about for the two of you? What else are you spending money on in terms of like, fun stuff?

[Fernie]

I tend to buy a lot of stuff for the kids. Seriously, Puke can't walk without toys. Yeah, because even the, the furniture that we've gotten, we go to the Facebook marketplace and whoever's giving out like free furniture and stuff, we go get it. Because I rather buy my kids toys.

[Ramit Sethi]

And when you say you'd rather buy your kids toys, can you finish the sentence for me? I'd rather buy my kids toys than.

[Fernie]

Buy myself a nice chair or buy myself nice furniture.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, but I, I, I will say that George seems to be sitting on a very nice chair that was given to us. It's nice.

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about that TV that we bought.

[Fernie]

On a Black Friday? It was 150 bucks. I'm pretty proud of the 150 bucks. Well, I shouldn't be proud, but I got a good deal.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, did you grow up religious?

[Fernie]

My parents were religious. My mother was religious.

[Ramit Sethi]

I can tell you've made a couple of comments about. I'm going to paraphrase, but I'm bad, I'm dumb. I know I shouldn't have done that. I will tell you, it hurts hearing people, people talk about themselves like that. I don't love it. I don't think you would ever talk about me like that. I would certainly never talk about you like that. And to know that sometimes we say these really painful things about ourselves. There's usually something there and oftentimes it is certain types of religious backgrounds, not all, but some. Certain types of parents, not all, but some. And it can cause very long lasting effects. Some of those effects I'm seeing when I look at the Amazon purchases and the home. And even the way you talk about yourself, even the way you wrote your application, I think you. I believe you called yourself dumb in the application. I don't think you're dumb. Just so you know, me neither.

[Fernie]

I was in a very abusive relationship for a long, long time. That diminished me and made me believe things that are not true.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hmm. I'm sorry. Now that I understand that and looking at your csp, I want to get some clarity on the debt. So your CSP indicates you have $313,000 of debt. Can you explain what comprises that debt, Fernie?

[Fernie]

It includes the home. And then we have consolidation loans, credit cards and home repairs that we had to do.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you break it down for me? How much is the house?

[Fernie]

The house we still owe 230,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, consolidation.

[Fernie]

So the consolidations, we have 9,774 and we have the 20,000. And then the home repairs was 4,255 and 8,891. Credit card. Credit cards. We have 7,685. And then we also have the freezer, which we still owe 3,000 on it. 3,397. Then I don't know what to call this. They sold us. A salesperson came to the house and they sold us a bunch of like air purifiers and all this stuff. We didn't ask the price. We got a bill and we still owed 13,000 on that.

[Ramit Sethi]

What the.

Yeah, yeah, okay, sorry. Let's get the rest of the debt out. What else?

[Fernie]

We still owe 20,000 on our car.

[George]

Okay.

[Fernie]

Because we were negative on it. And then I have student loans. I still owe 34,000 of student loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else?

[Fernie]

I have a medical bill still pending And I owe 1800 on that one.

[Ramit Sethi]

Anything else?

[Fernie]

The rest is just everyday expensive stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think about these numbers?

[Fernie]

It's terrible. There's some of them that hurt more than others. Why Because I thought I knew better, yet I still made the mistake.

[Ramit Sethi]

The numbers you told me add up to 353,000, not 313,000. You undercounted by $40,000 of debt?

[Fernie]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, you look defeated.

[Fernie]

I feel defeated. I've been feeling defeated for a good amount of time because I thought I could do better, and I haven't. And it's painful. It's not working, and I know that, but I don't know. I don't know how to fix it. Like. Like I said, I feel defeated and I feel horrible because I obviously see and know that it's not working, what we're doing.

[Ramit Sethi]

Sorry, what we are doing. I didn't catch that. Who.

[George]

Who's doing.

[Fernie]

It's what I'm doing. It's not working.

[Ramit Sethi]

You find it difficult to say I.

[Fernie]

Because I want to include him in everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Fernie]

He's my spouse. He's my partner. He should be.

[Ramit Sethi]

I live in a world of what is, not what should be. And when I see $353,000 of debt. Just to be very blunt, we need to get real. Like you talked about. We finally woke up. We need to get real. You said that on your application, but I don't hear anybody getting real with me right now. Fernie, you're trying to include George because you want to walk on eggshells and not make him uncomfortable.

[Fernie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't think we move forward unless we can actually call out what is happening here. Would you like to try again?

[Fernie]

What I'm doing is not working. I need to change. I need to make sure that we're on the same page, that we work together and that we take this as seriously as it has to be taken. I was trying to not see the big elephant in the room and trying to ignore it standing there on the corner. Like, if I ignore it long enough in my mind, it's not. It's not there. I don't. I don't. If I don't look at it, it's not gonna appear. And I'm not helping us in any way by just trying to ignore it and thinking it's gonna. It's gonna work one of these times, because it hasn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's real. I appreciate that.

I wanna jump in quickly because it's really easy to sit back and judge. You hear numbers like theirs. A couple that's spending more than they earn, they have barely any savings. They're buried in debt. You sit back and go, how could they let it get like this? You need to remember that most people have a very loose relationship with money. In fact, most people use the amount in their checking account to determine how good they feel about their entire financial situation. That's like me judging my health by the number of cucumbers in my fridge. And when you are overwhelmed financially and emotionally, you're not acting logically. It's not like you're sitting there carefully reading financial books and analyzing your debt to income ratio. You're often reacting out of fear. That's what we're seeing here. It's chaos. It's exhausting. It's waking up at 2am wondering how you're going to pay the next bill. It's creating a confusing spreadsheet that gives you the illusion of control even as you keep sinking. Please remember this is a family with three kids, including a boy with special needs. Their days are filled with doctor's appointments and caregiving responsibilities. How would you react in this situation? I don't know how I would react, but I bet my financial system would take a major hit. So I have a lot of compassion for what they are going through every single day. If you know someone who's in a particularly difficult season of their financial life, send them this episode. Maybe it can make them feel less alone. But here, right now, we still need to change things. What is heartbreaking is noticing how Fernie has had to minimize her own needs just to keep things going. And that's what we're going to get into right after this.

Fernie, would you describe yourself as passive in life?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're passive. Right. Somebody gives you the wrong meal at a restaurant, you go, that's fine, it's fine. I don't want to cause trouble.

[Fernie]

Yes. I try to. I try to please people.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes.

[Fernie]

And I even do that with friends and family. If they're in need and I'm still in financial trouble, I will still give them whatever I need to, to for them to be okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you see how much that has cost you?

[Fernie]

Yes. And I'm in therapy for that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great.

[Fernie]

Because I'm trying to fix that because it was very hard for me to say no.

[Ramit Sethi]

Good. Has money come up in those conversations?

[Fernie]

It. It has started to come up. Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Good, good, good. It's all connected. The inability to say no. It shows up everywhere in all the clues I'm seeing, for example, people who have credit card debt 100% of the time, they have an inability to say no to their kids. And guess what? You both have credit card debt. And when I look around the house, there's like over 100 toys right there. How does that people pleasing show up for the two of you?

[Fernie]

Been hard for me. It's very difficult for me to say no to anyone. It has been. It's getting better.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm not talking about anyone. I'm talking about George.

[Fernie]

Oh, to tell no to him.

[George]

I don't really ask too much for her to be pleasing me.

[Fernie]

But if he does say he wants something, I try to figure out how to get it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Would you be willing to change that relationship?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Would you be willing to say no to your kids?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I appreciate that. Very firm answer. I know that can't even be easy to say. I get that and I acknowledge it. Because even just like me, it's part of your identity. I want to help people. I want to be there for. I want to take care of them. And to even conceptualize the idea of maybe saying no, of maybe not being helpful can almost be physically painful. But I appreciate you saying no. I will say no. I can try to do that. That is powerful. George, what do you remember about money as a kid? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[George]

We, we didn't have a perception of money. We weren't well off, but we didn't have any needs that needed to be met. I actually, one of the things that I'm ashamed of, I, I, My first job was when I was 25 years old.

[Ramit Sethi]

How'd that happen?

[George]

Well, my parents were to provide for me most of my life. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you think that that affects you today?

[George]

It does affect me. And up to this day, like, if. Yeah, it's not a good thing. We're in the issue. We're in this issue that we're in right now, not learning how to save. I don't, I didn't see that with my parents. We did not have. They had the money, they spend it. They never teach me how to save. And if I needed something, I would just call. Then it would be on my account.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that similar to how it is today?

[George]

Kind of, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

You don't save. And if you need something, you ask Fernie, and she provides. Very much like your parents?

[George]

Well, I mean, I work, but.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, yeah, I agree, you work, but also, are you checking in the accounts yourself and deciding if you can afford, or are you just asking her?

[George]

No, I ask her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, what are you noticing about this?

[Fernie]

The same pattern as he grew up.

[Ramit Sethi]

What role do you play in this dynamic? You are the.

[Fernie]

I'm the parent.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, we have the parent child dynamic. And you even said that earlier. You said, you know, it's effectively he's a child when it comes to the finances. The parent child dynamic is really toxic for so many reasons. It's toxic to intimacy. Nobody wants to be intimate with a partner who is like, seen as a child. And also it's, it actually reinforces or concretizes these roles of parent child. And the more and more time goes on, the more and more the adult partner who's seen as a child becomes more dependent. Please, can you log into this account for me? I don't even know where the password is. Please help me. I don't know. And the other one becomes increasingly resentful and takes on the role of the parent.

[Fernie]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And I mean it's pretty noticeable because it's a joke in the family too, that I have four kids instead of three.

[Ramit Sethi]

Whoa, that's.

[Fernie]

It's pretty apparent.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, what do you think of that? I would be candidly devastated if that joke was being made about me.

[George]

Well, I don't think of anything like it doesn't hurt me if I don't feel that way.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why? What are they saying when they make that joke?

[George]

I don't know. I mean, because. Or the way they feel or the way they see how things are run in our family.

[Ramit Sethi]

When people joke that they are cheap, it's never a joke. Like for example, couples will come on here, they'll be like, oh yeah, our friends actually call us cheap cheapos. Hahaha. I go, you should take that deadly seriously. Because for somebody to be called cheap, no one casually says, oh, you're cheap. That is a very extreme thing to say. For somebody to joke in your family that you have four kids that. Freddie, you know this. I could see you nodding right now. That is not a joke, George. I'm sharing this with you. It's not a joke. It's actually incredible.

Red flag.

It's almost like there is a fire going on in your house. Your house is on fire and everybody's going, la la la, ha ha ha. Funny, funny joke. This is not funny. It's a huge signal that something is off in the dynamic. Am I, am I reading this incorrectly?

[Fernie]

No, it pains me, it does bother me because if it's that obvious for other people to see it, it sucks. I don't want people to see him like, as my child. I don't want that, that disrespect.

[Ramit Sethi]

That is right. That is disrespectful. I agree.

[George]

I don't see that disrespect because I don't feel that way. I don't feel like I'm the child.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you think maybe you don't feel that way because you don't understand what they're actually saying? It's easier to avoid what they're saying.

[George]

Because they only see a part of whatever they want to perceive. But that's not what it is.

[Ramit Sethi]

But George, I'm seeing it right now. We've been talking for hours. I am seeing that you are treated and you ask to be treated like a child when it comes to the finances. You're not engaging as a partner. You're not engaging adult to adult. You're not even engaging with a CSP knowing that you're going to see me. You're not taking this seriously. So your family is seeing exactly what I'm seeing, which is a parent child dynamic.

[George]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

What would you say to them if they were here? The very people who joke about the four kids.

[George]

Why would they think that? What was. What was the reason that make him think that that's what's happening?

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a great question. Fernie. Can you try to answer what they might say?

[Fernie]

He handles everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Keep going. George is asking a really good question. He's trying to understand what's going on here. I think this is a great question. Give him some specifics.

[Fernie]

It seems that he's always working. She's always trying to figure out ways to get you all out of the messes that you get each other into. And it. She's always working on how to move numbers, how to move things around, how to make more money to get you all out of stuff while you sit and watch tv.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, what comes to mind when I share these specific moments? Renewing your passport, scheduling a dentist appointment. Replacing that light bulb that's been out for six months and you're not sure what's the right bulb. We all procrastinate on weird stuff. And taxes are usually right at the top of that list. We wait until the last second, then we get overwhelmed. We gotta pull all this paperwork and we're panicked because the deadline is approaching. That's why I recommend guilt. Now that tax season's over, this is actually the best time to get ahead. If you run a business or you filed for a tax extension, one small move right now could save you thousands later. Gelt is not just another CPA firm. They helped one of my colleagues rethink his entire tax setup. Now he's saving more than he spends on tax prep. With G. You get a Proactive year round strategy, not just a one time filing. Credits, deductions, business structure, it's handled. And their tech platform makes it easy to stay organized. You'll also get access to Gilt's full tax license library with guides on retirement plans, QBI and more. So if you've got a business or you filed for an extension, this is the window to take control of your tax plan. Head to joingelt.com ramit to book a consultation and as a member of my.

Community, you get to skip the waitlist.

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What do you think of that?

[George]

It's painful. No, I don't think that's what it is. But if that's what they see, I don't see it that way.

[Ramit Sethi]

If everybody else sees something and you don't see it that way, is it possible that maybe they're right?

[George]

It might be, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Would you be open to that? Yes. And if they were right, what would you do about it specifically?

[George]

Yeah, like working on showing more engagement, more ownership, but showing up to her family that I'm taking decisions that I'm, you know, doing. Also what they seem to be seen off of her.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you care about changing their perception?

[George]

No, because I don't. I know who I am and I really don't. Yeah, because I. Even if, you know, like, yeah, I guess it doesn't bother me.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, there's a lot of people who see my videos and stuff online and once in a while they'll, they'll make comments about my freaking eyebrows or something like that. I don't care what some random anonymous commenter on Instagram thinks. So I understand. You know, there's some people in your life, you're just like, I don't care what they think. Whose opinion do you care about?

[George]

My wife.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so let's put the family aside. Okay. So what is your wife's opinion on this parent child thing?

[George]

She knows that it's not. I mean, that's why I bother her when they say those things.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, can you ask her if that's true?

[George]

Is that true? Why, am I wrong?

[Fernie]

You are wrong. Because you, you do ask me a lot of stuff. When you should know. I don't want you to come and ask me like, hey, what account should I use? How much do I have to spend? I don't, I don't think you should be asking me those questions. I think you should know those questions. And if you were truly my partner, my husband, you would know these things because we would sit together and go through it and know what we have, what we don't have, what we can do, what we can't do. You don't know that. You asked me. You just did it today.

[George]

I didn't have access to the account. I had access before, but.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, don't explain it. Listen to what she's saying.

[Fernie]

You excuse yourself. You tend to do that a lot. You excuse yourself about a lot of stuff. We need to change that. We need to, like you said, take ownership. We need to actually talk about things, be on the same page and be partners. Not you having to ask me. It doesn't feel right. Like, you shouldn't have to ask me if it's our money. It's not my money. It's not my account. It's our account, so you should be included and you should know these things.

[George]

Yeah, I wish that, too.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did you just hear her say, George?

[George]

That I should be able to have the information. I should be able to be engaged with our finances, to be able to take decisions and not to ask her for a simple decision that I can take on.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, if that's not what she said. She doesn't want you to ask her those questions. An adult should already know how to do it. My wife doesn't ask me how to log into our checking account. She's an adult. We talked about it once. She knows how. She doesn't want you to ask her those questions like a child. Are you hearing what she's saying?

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does she say?

[George]

That she wants me to take ownership and for me to be able to take decisions. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think it's kind of surprising that you began by saying, like, oh, I care what my wife thinks, not what her family thinks. But my wife knows that that's not true. I'm not a child. And she was like, no, actually, I agree. You're not taking ownership. You're not being an adult. You're not being my partner.

Did you hear her say that?

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

How does that make you feel?

[George]

Well, not great. Okay. I want her to feel different towards me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm willing to do anything that I need to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Me. Okay, so you have both told me that the current financial life you have is not sustainable right now. With $300 in savings. What would a more sustainable life look like for you? Fernie? I'd love to have specifics, please.

[Fernie]

Forget about credit card or any type of debt that is negative interest not working in our favor. I need to eliminate the debt, land for and have an emergency savings that if anything happens to the house, the car, I don't have to go into debt. I don't have to grab those funds.

[George]

George, we're talking about amount. Like an amount of money or.

[Ramit Sethi]

No. The question is, what would make you have a life that is more safe, sustainable, debt free?

[George]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All debt.

[George]

All debt free and save money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[George]

Yeah, I think that's, that's the key.

[Ramit Sethi]

Debt free and save money. How much, how much you want to save?

[George]

As much as we can.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Wow, this is interesting. I'm hearing debt as a big problem for the first time in our conversation right now. Have you realized that?

[Fernie]

Yeah, no, I just realized that I know it's there. I don't want to face it because I don't know how to. How to tackle it. I'm more afraid of messing up because it seems like everything falls on me because I've let it, I've done it and I've let it happen. That way that if something happens, it's always like, well, you told me I was okay to do so. You told us that it was okay. So I always have that, oh, please, please don't up this time. I always have that in my head. And, and I'm. I'm terrified to make the mistakes that will get us back into that terrible hole again.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you go through life worried you're going to, as you put it up, you are playing life on defense. Your entire worldview is, I'm going to mess this up. And it's very hard to get ahead if that is your worldview. Now, I know you are talking to your therapist about this. George, I hope you're hearing this because your disengagement with money also affects Fernie.

Makes her feel alone.

That's why she asked for connection, not for the right math. She's desperately crying out for connection because she feels alone. And when she's alone, she feels worried that she's going to mess it up. Now, I hope that the two of you can do it together, but fr. You're probably going to have to do it on your own to begin. How would you feel about that?

[Fernie]

I'm willing to put in the work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And George, what about you? Do you have a vision of what.

Your life would be like?

You mentioned no debt and you want to be saving. I love that vision. What would you be doing in this life, this vision that you have? What would your Relationship with money be. What are you willing to do in order to build wealth?

[George]

Work as much as we can. Well, as much as I can.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's it. Work. Okay, I'm hearing you loud and clear.

[George]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, are you hearing this?

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are you hearing?

[Fernie]

He doesn't want to do the spreadsheets. He doesn't really want to figure it out. He just wants to work and get there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Now, this is interesting. I've spent hours talking to Fernie and George, and I've really been trying to get George to engage with their money beyond just working and providing a paycheck. But we're right back here. The truth is, he's not going to open the spreadsheet. He's not going to run the numbers. The only thing he's willing to do is work. Okay, fine. I can't change anyone if they don't want to change. What I'm going to do now is move on with the direction of the conversation. I. I'm taking a concept I learned years ago when I was a soccer referee, and I'm adapting it. That concept was called Advantage in soccer. Let's say player one fouls player two, but before I can blow the whistle, player two gets the ball, and they're already running down the field. I basically say play on with the advantage hand signal, meaning it would disrupt the game if I were to stop for the foul. I use that technique sometimes in life. And definitely on this podcast, we could stop and analyze something wrong that happened two minutes ago, but we've already moved on, so I'm making a judgment call. This is not going to happen right now. I'm not going to change George's relationship with money. And if I keep pushing him, he's probably going to shut down. So play on. I know a lot of you don't like this. You want me to yell at my guests when they say infuriating things. I see the comments. A lot of people genuinely believe that if you yell at someone, they will finally see the truth.

I see it in the comments where.

Some people even admit that sometimes I need to be yelled at. Candidly, that's not how human nature works. You might feel better watching me yell at someone, but that doesn't actually change anyone's beliefs. It actually makes them retreat. So, no, I'm not going to scream at anyone, even though I will admit sometimes I lose my temper. George has made it clear he's willing to do one thing. Work, nothing more. Can Fernie accept that?

How does that fit into your vision? Fernie? Does your vision include you doing the money yourself or you having a partner to do it with?

[Fernie]

No, definitely a partner.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Fernie]

Definitely. I want him to be my partner.

[Ramit Sethi]

The two of you have completely different visions. Do you see that?

[Fernie]

Yeah, I didn't want to see it, but yes, I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that's what Fernie's been asking about. I think she's not satisfied by just talking about what are we going to do tomorrow and next week or even this month. I don't think she's satisfied by you just saying, I'm going to work and, you know, bring in a check. I think she wants that longer term plan. What do you think?

[Fernie]

That would give me so much peace.

[George]

George, I get it now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tell me in your own words.

[George]

I, I feel. I see what you come from. I, I feel what you mean now.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does she want?

[George]

She wants me to be present, not just there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did this come up when you guys did counseling?

[Fernie]

It did, but I didn't see that. What I just saw, I saw, I saw it click in his head. And at counseling, it never clicked. He, he understood it as, I need to go work. Let me, let me run out. Let me go work. Let me go work. And I'm like, he doesn't get it, George.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's different this time versus what happened at counseling?

[George]

Being able to talk about it more, you know, like her, it's expressing herself. The way she expressed today, I, I, I kind of like, see it now.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what if nothing changes? What happens?

[George]

I hope, I hope not. I'm very optimistic. I hope everything's going to change and it's gonna.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, optimism is your way of not confronting reality. And you've been leaning on that crutch for a long time. And you know, in part, part of it is not your fault because your parents basically never really taught you about reality. Yeah, they never forced you to face consequences. They just gave you money whenever you wanted. They took care of you till you were 25. And then immediately your financial burden was handed over to Fernie, your wife. You've never actually faced the consequences of not taking ownership of your own finances. And in part, I wish you had. I wish you had because you would know what the consequences actually are. You need a plan.

[George]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

You've been saying optimism for 25 years, and Fernie's been doing the work and it's not working for her. And she's not the only one who noticed it. Her family, other people. I've noticed it today. So the question I have is, what happens if nothing changes?

[George]

That's not going to happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I hope it doesn't. But what happens if nothing changes?

[George]

We be in financial trouble all over again.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, you. You have $353,000 of debt right now. You're in financial trouble. Deep financial trouble. So what else? Let's talk about your son. How old is he now?

[George]

18.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's going to happen if nothing changes?

[George]

You're not going to be able to give him what he needs.

[Ramit Sethi]

Two of you are in your 40s, correct?

[George]

Yeah, I'm 48.

[Ramit Sethi]

Maybe you work for 20 more years. That comes quick. You know how fast time goes.

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what happens then? One of you gets injured? Somebody has to take care of a sick family member. What happens then?

[George]

Big trouble.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, be specific.

[George]

We can end up being homeless. We can end up being. Without the need to, you know, even. Not for us, at least, you know, like, if we don't even see ourselves but for our kids is the most important thing in our lives.

[Fernie]

Fernie, I don't want him to have a horrible life because of our irresponsibility. Nothing is guaranteed for him. Help is not guaranteed for him. We are it. We are his guarantee. So it's not a question of if nothing changes. It has to change. It will change. I will change.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm going to go to your CSP and I'm going to show you some things that immediately stand out to me. Here are the things that immediately are red flags for me. $311 in savings is just completely unacceptable and the highest risk I've almost ever seen. Three kids. One special needs child. No way. This needs to be at least six, ideally 12 months of expenses, which would be 30 to $60,000. Now, you're a long way from that. But right now, in my opinion, it is red alert time. Time to change everything. Now, how aggressive would you like me to get? Because I can tell you what I would do or I can kind of make it gentle and, you know, what.

[Fernie]

Do you want aggressive?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Fernie]

We don't have time.

[Ramit Sethi]

That is correct. I'm glad you said that. All right, here's what I would do. First off, I would look at your expenses. Utilities, all this stuff. What can be cut from this?

[Fernie]

Anything that. Not really.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, we're going to go line by line. Insurance? I don't think so. Car payment.

[Fernie]

That's the only car we have, so no.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right.

[Fernie]

Groceries that we can cut to 400.

[Ramit Sethi]

You can cut from 1,000 to 400.

[Fernie]

Oh, yeah, because we have all that. We could just be using what we have in the Freezer. And it would be very slight extras like milk, eggs.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are you spending the extra 600amonth on?

[Fernie]

We were buying more sodas, snacks for the kids. We can cut all that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Interesting how when I asked you what I would find in your kitchen, suddenly everyone was like, oh, I only eat healthy food. We cook every night at home. Oh, he said that?

[Fernie]

I didn't.

[George]

Yeah, well, I don't do the order. So am I. George.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's not cute like with the smile. I'm not fooled. It's like I'm not laughing. Do you see that? This doesn't work on me. You guys are in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and you have an 18 year old special needs son. This is not funny.

[George]

No, it's not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, you're going to need to decide if you if your partner takes this seriously or not. And what are you going to do about it? Because I would not. That would be infuriating for me, George. I don't know if you understand how pissed I would be if I saw my partner joking about snacks when we have $300,000 of debt. Yeah, you can cut your groceries down. That's good. Take it down to 400.

[Fernie]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. That's a big change in your fixed cost. Takes you down to 83%. That's a huge change. I love that clothes at 100 bucks a month. You do have three kids. We should probably leave that. You think you can cut that, Fernie?

[Fernie]

Yeah, I think. I think we can cut it. I can. I can do 40.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, fine. 40 it is. Phone at 245. What do you say?

[Fernie]

I've been trying to cut that, but we still owe our phones.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, fine. So let's just keep it as is and then subscriptions at 200 bucks. No. What do you want to cut that to?

[Fernie]

I would just probably keep Disney plus, which is 18amonth.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. Everything else gone.

[Fernie]

Yeah, I can. I can cut everything else.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great.

[Fernie]

I don't get to watch TV anyway.

[Ramit Sethi]

Perfect.

[Fernie]

It's okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're down to 79%. Still way too high. But we'll get to that. Investments 280. This is the one for your kids?

[Fernie]

No, I'm doing $100 a month for them.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not anymore. Yeah, okay, that's gone. And then what's the rest of this? Some taxable account or something?

[Fernie]

The. The one that I told you, the brokerage and stuff like that, where it's automatically going.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're going to read the book and you can decide where the money goes, whether it's pre tax or post tax. It's probably pre tax, but that 280 bucks, I'm going to just take off of here. Okay. I hope you can start to invest, but right now we got other things to worry about. Okay.

[Fernie]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Savings goals at 12%.300amonth for vacation. No, sorry, guys. There's no more vacations for a long time, so I'm taking that off. Gifts? 120. No. No way. 1,500 bucks a year for gifts? No, that's what. For the kids.

[Fernie]

Yeah, yeah. For Christmas, guys. Yeah, I know. I, I won't.

[Ramit Sethi]

Literally, I would take one of those rabbits at the bottom of that tub, wrap it up in new wrapping paper here. Happy birthday. Merry Christmas too. Here's a rabbit.

[Fernie]

They won't even notice.

[Ramit Sethi]

Exactly.

[Fernie]

Yeah, that's true.

[Ramit Sethi]

Long term emergency fund is currently at a hundred bucks. Yeah, right. We need to move that number up. Let's just look where we are right now.

[George]

Right?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Great. Okay. I want to tell you why I'm getting a little bit more excited. We have more work to do. But look at this. Right now, you currently have a thousand dollars a month to spend, left over after your key things. Now, the fact is you've actually been spending probably more than that on this random stuff you're ordering from Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. But we can put some controls around that. We're going to put 500 bucks a month towards your emergency fund and we're going to dramatically cut how much you're spending on guilt free spending. Okay. And we still have one major thing we need to do because we haven't even touched your debt right now. According to this, your debt is not being paid off at all. We know that can't be the case.

[Fernie]

Yeah, no.

[Ramit Sethi]

So which partner is earning $2400 a month?

[George]

Me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, George, why are you earning $2400 a month?

[George]

Besides that. I still make the, the one that I'm doing on the side.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where is that?

[George]

That's not there.

[Ramit Sethi]

Should we add it or what?

[George]

That fluctuates.

[Fernie]

We, we can. It's just, it's rough to estimate because we just started at the beginning of the year and, and I've been keeping, of course, a spreadsheet on it and I can tell you roughly what we've been making.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, tell me. I just want the average number. Six months is more than enough to make an average.

[Fernie]

So in March, we did a thousand dollars. In April, we did 1100 in May, we did 1700 in June. So far, it's been 1800.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. So you did between a thousand and 1800. Let's be conservative. Let's say 1100. I hope it's more, but let's be super conservative. How's that?

[Fernie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so I'm gonna add that in here. But, George, are you working full time?

[George]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why not?

[George]

We don't have our kids on childcare.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ah, so you're staying home during certain times for child care?

[George]

I only work at night.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, got it.

[George]

I'm. I'm third shift.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, got it. Okay, thank you. That helps me understand. So your third shift, so you're making 17 bucks an hour. You're working 38 hours a week, and then you're doing this thing on the side, which is bringing in 1100 bucks a month. Okay, that. That helps me understand that. So let me show you what I'm going to do here. I'm going to take this up from 2,400 to 3. 3,500 for. What do you think we should put for the net here? If it's 3, 500, what do you think?

[George]

27. I'm sorry?

[Fernie]

Yeah. Like 2800?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, maybe 27. You know, it's something in there. I. I might be getting it wrong. I'm sure I'm getting it wrong. I'm not sure which direction. Let's say 2700. Okay. Watch this number over here. This is the number to watch. Right now, Your fixed cost is 79. Holy.

[Fernie]

Oh, wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Look at Fernie's face, everybody. Fernie, show us. George is like, what the fuck is happening right now? Fernie just took a big sigh of relief. That number dropped to 58%. George, let me explain, okay? I want you to know what's going on here. It's important for me. So this number is your fixed cost percentage. And we like to see that number between 50 to 60% higher than that. Really explains why people feel stressed out by their finances. Okay. And one of the key things that I observed in your CSP is you simply are not earning enough money for the expenses that you have. And we're not even really talking about the debt. Okay. $130,000 is a good household income. Very good. But you have expenses and you have a lot of debt, and so you need to be earning much more. Okay? And so right there, adding that side income that you're doing, George, actually makes a huge difference. So I'm super glad that you're doing that. If anything, I would say keep it up. And I'm just going to be kind of Direct. Push it, push it. Because making right now we're putting 1100 as the average. I would really like that number to be 1500. Okay. If you make an extra 500 bucks, for example, and you put that directly towards your debt, and let's say this happens consistently, an extra 3, 4, 500 bucks a month on top of the 1100, that could shave off years from your debt payment years. So this money is very, very welcome right now. Okay.

[George]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I keep going? You know, your debt needs to be paid off, like much, much, much more aggressively. So I'm going to show you what happens. That number is going to go back up, but I'm going to show you 500amonth for debt takes you to 65%. Truthfully, 500amonth is not nearly enough to pay off your debt. It needs to be like we're talking without looking at all this stuff. It's thousands a month, probably 2,000amonth. And if I did that, I'll show you what happens. Just, just to give you an example, you're at 87%. You're back. So we got some serious problems here. What do you think about that?

[Fernie]

Yeah, that's why it's very important for us to eliminate that. That, I mean, we're pushing it to keep it down.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fernie, if you had three hours free per day, what would you do with the time?

[Fernie]

I've never thought of that. Play with my kids.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I love that. What else? Let's talk about the financial part.

[Fernie]

Oh, man, that's a tough question. I've never really thought what I would do with three hours of free time. Not working on trying to figure out how to pay stuff. Like, my mind automatically goes like, well, I, I, I can take those three hours and go do some overtime or something to pay off more debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Truthfully, I don't mind that. Can you do it? Can you do it?

[Fernie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much more can you make?

[Fernie]

Maybe a thousand.

[Ramit Sethi]

I can't be the one to tell you here what to do. This is not my place. What I can tell you is that currently there's no debt payoff plan. You don't know when your debt will be paid off. Because I think the way that you've operated, George, you've basically been checked out of the finances. And Fernie, you're just like, I can't even look at this. I'm just going to take whatever money we have and put it towards debt. I don't think right now it's worth making a debt payoff plan because I think Your interest rates are probably all over the map and you're balances and all kinds of stuff, it will be very confusing. But I would encourage you to create that debt payoff plan. You just go online, you can search remit debt payoff calculator, you can plug in your numbers and you can see when will your debt be paid off. So if it were me and I were in your situation, I'm sitting down with my wife, I would put this CSP up like this and we would look at it and we would say, okay, we need to be dramatically paying this debt off. We would have plugged the numbers into the debt payoff calculator and we would realize right now we probably need to be paying, I don't know, $2,000 a month towards debt payments. Well, right now that puts us at 87%. So we need to be making an extra $2,000 a month. I'm using sample numbers. You will have to figure these out on your own. How are we going to do $2,000 a month? Well, let's throw out every idea and we'll write them down on a piece of paper. It could be, I work more, you work more, and on and on and on. Well, and then we write down any potential problems. Well, we'd need another car, we need childcare, blah, blah, blah. But we don't stop there. That's where most people stop. They see a problem, they just stop. They let a tiny problem stop them from making progress. No, you go, okay, so how do.

We get over that?

Oh, we can't do it this year. But if we wait a year, we can put our youngest in that childcare program. They'll go for four days, not five. So we'll have to figure something out on the fourth day.

But that's okay.

We can figure that out. Then you see how we're starting to work it out together. That's it. Simple as that. We need to be decisive. We need to be making decisions. After you sit down, you make a plan. After you sell everything you can that doesn't need to be there, then you go, hey, wait a minute. We still have a lot of junk in our house, just toys and stuff everywhere. That is also sending a signal to you every time you walk in the house. What signal is that sending, Fernie?

[Fernie]

It stresses me out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, it stresses me out and I need to declutter. It's just a reminder that, that we have a bunch of stuff around. And trust me, when you, when you often get stressed out, what do you end up doing? You End up going and buying more stuff. Wrong.

[Fernie]

Wrong.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're not going to do that anymore.

[Fernie]

I'm going to get rid of a lot of stuff. I'm already. As you were talking, I was thinking of everything that I could possibly just sell. Even if it's for cheap.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes.

[Fernie]

A dollar. Two dollars.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes. And who can help you with this? Fernie. Interesting. I notice you taking this all on yourself. I wonder.

[George]

I can help.

[Fernie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

George, why don't you just. Why don't you just tell her right now what part you want to take off. Don't make her tell you to do it. Why don't you just step up and do it?

[George]

I'll do the basement. Yeah, I'll do the basement.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are we good? That's it.

[George]

Yeah. I'll add everything that it can be sold. I will get this old.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. I love that. That's what we're talking about. That type of conviction. Fernie, how does that feel?

[Fernie]

Great. Yes, it really does.

[Ramit Sethi]

The basement. We know it's going to be done because George just said he's going to do it. It's done. George, are you going to do that by what, a week from now?

[George]

If I can, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't know what the word if means or try. That word doesn't exist to me. Can you tell me again?

[George]

Okay. Two weeks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. Does. Done. George, I think you don't hold yourself to a high standard sometimes. I think you give yourself a lot of slack. You use a lot of words. Have you noticed that? Try. If I can. Do you. Do you find that you try to get away with as little as you can sometimes? Fernie, why are you smiling?

[Fernie]

Spot on.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's not going to work. If you want to change this, George, that's going to require a total revamp of the way you look at the world. Because you've actually gotten pretty far getting by without going over the top, without going above and beyond. And that's in a lot of ways because you had somebody else around you subsidizing or taking care of things. But the fact is you'll go the rest of your life like this and then the you two will be in extreme financial situation, not able to get out from it. In the same way, Fernie, that you're going to have to relook at the world and start to set actual boundaries and actually hold people to them, including George. In the same way that you're going to have to stop helping everybody else at your own expense. In the same way that you're going to have to go from Fear to boldness. George, you're going to have to go from trying to get away with as much as possible to actually saying, I'm going to do this. Not for anybody else, not even for my wife, for me. Because like you told her 25 years ago, you deserve more.

You're lovable.

Actually, the same is true for you. You deserve more and you're not even giving it to yourself. You're trying to get away with as little as possible when I'm trying to help you see how much you can actually achieve. The two of you.

[George]

Yeah, I know. It has to come from us.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Good. I'm really glad to hear that. That's awesome.

[Fernie]

I appreciate your honesty and I appreciate you calling out on everything because that's what I needed to hear. That's what I need to make the changes that are necessary for me to break out of this cycle.

[Ramit Sethi]

I really want you to be able to do this together. Honestly, there's nothing more fun and powerful and rewarding than two people, two partners, rowing in the same direction and starting to realize, oh my God, we can get to where we want to go faster than we ever thought possible. But it can't be one person doing it. It just can't. Not at this scale.

[Fernie]

Thank you so much.

[George]

Thank you so much for your time.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thank you. I'm pulling for you. Keep me updated. Trust me, the community, my community, is pulling for you as well. They want to see you make big changes.

[Fernie]

Thank you. Have a great night.

[Ramit Sethi]

This was a really hard conversation and I want to thank Fernie and George for speaking with me so openly. I have some surprising follow ups for you, but first, let me tell you what I thought of today's conversation. Honestly, I left the conversation feeling unsatisfied. I have all the patients in the world. For a couple that does not understand money. I frequently stay hours later than I am scheduled to because I feel we are right on the cusp of changing a dynamic around money. But what I don't have patience for is when someone refuses to engage their partner, especially when their partner is suffering, almost begging for help. I approached George from every angle. I gave him space, I gave him clarity. I gave related to him directly. And he deflected every single time. And that's when I started to lose it. I honestly think as I reflected on this conversation, part of my discomfort and part of my irritation and even anger was seeing in him what I have seen in myself when I've disappointed my wife. When I know that I could have done better, but I just didn't and looking back, I realized how easy, easy it would have been for me to make the effort, for me to help her take the load off of her. Maybe that's why I'm so frustrated with George, because I can see a little bit of myself in him. What's different here is that the stakes are really high. Fernie is crying. Their son's future is on the line. And he's still sitting here saying, it'll all work out. Can they change? Yeah, of course, anyone can. But it's going to be incredibly difficult to undo 25 years of the same patterns. It'll take couples therapy and discipline. It will take commitment. And it will require George to fundamentally change the way he approaches money. And his wife, Fernie went from dropping out of high school to earning a master's degree when their son was born. She's gone through some tough times. I personally would just love for her life to be a little easier. It's about time, don't you think? My wish is that George reflects on this conversation and, and finds the strength to meet her there. Now let's check out their follow ups.

[George]

We have done some changes. The good thing about this is I'm not falling asleep. I'm listening to everything my wife has to say about finances. We're walking and talking.

[Fernie]

Yeah. So we figured out that being at home, staying a kid, sitting, watching a spreadsheet was not the best thing. So a walk and just an overview of the month to come. Some positive changes that we have done. The mortgage, the interest rate. I'm talking to the lender to lower the interest rate, the phone lines.

[George]

We're moving forward on lowering our phone bill.

[Fernie]

The other thing too is the car. We were able to do a refinance. We lower the APR and we lower the payment. That way we're going to. We have a three year plan to do the 40k of the emergency fund. Of course, that might change as soon as the, our youngest goes to school. We'll be able to possibly shorten the time on that. But so far we've been able to save hundreds of dollars by just negotiating with our lenders. And I stopped the college fund.

[George]

The college fund.

[Fernie]

So we can put it more towards the emergency fund and readjust everything. And we're having better conversations. So we want to thank you all for the help. And it's, it's a work in progress.

[George]

I'm getting more involved.

[Fernie]

So we recently refinanced the house. We went from 7% to 5%. We have also canceled all subscriptions. Just kept Disney Plus. We also stopped the investment for the kids. We switched over. We're doing the emergency fund and we're doing 350bi weekly. So hopefully we can have that fully funded in the next three years. Fully funded. Hopefully sooner than that as things progress. We've been able to pay off two of the cards. Since my husband has been picking up more hours, I am doing, I guess, one of my hobbies. I'm doing, like, crocheting. So I'm thinking of, like, maybe getting some money out of my fun crests. I've done little dolls and stuff, so. And they're requesting it, so I might just do that as a side hustle. It brings me joy and it makes me a little money, so that'd be great. So far, the cost we were able to reduce also our phone bill. We changed carriers and we are saving $144 by doing that, which was great. We are having more casual conversations. No more spreadsheets. We take walks to be able to discuss. It helped us bring to light what we didn't like about how we approach finances and that that has helped us, I guess, have a healthier relationship with finances. And we're looking forward to these changes and see in a year like the big leaps. But so far, we're moving in a great direction. So I want to thank you all.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you liked today's episode, make sure you check out one of my favorites right here.