229.  “I’m almost 50 and have nothing to show for my life”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "I'm almost 50 and have nothing to show for my life"

Money for Couples with Ramit Sethi
Episode 229 | October 7, 2025
Guests: Christine (47) & Thad (57)

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Episode Overview

In this raw and emotionally charged episode, Ramit Sethi works with Christine and Thad—a long-term couple in their late 40s and 50s who are wading through a financial crisis. Burdened by crushing six-figure student loans, little to no savings, and habitual avoidance around money, Christine and Thad get candid about the setbacks, shame, and stories holding them back. Ramit peels back the layers of their financial narratives, childhood money scripts, and relationship dynamics, challenging them to confront their situation head-on and begin building a real plan for the future.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Their Financial Reality: Facing the Numbers (03:42, 21:07)

• Net Worth & Debts:
  • Assets: $0
  • Investments: $136,496 (mostly Christine’s)
  • Savings: $2,612
  • Debt: $339,000 (mostly student loans)
  • Net Worth: -$199,000
  • Combined Income: $167,625/year
• Shocking Realization: Despite a strong combined income, both felt “broke,” largely because of how expenses and debt payments drain nearly all disposable income.
• Ramit points out confusion in their story: “Do you have debt? Yeah, we haven't. Well, we haven't accumulated any, but actually… We have accumulated some. Is it getting better? It's getting better, but it's also getting worse.” (05:43)

2. Avoidance, Shame, and Roles in the Relationship (06:06–11:20)

• Avoidance vs. Anxiety: Christine handles the bills and feels overwhelmed (and is openly emotional). Thad tends to avoid and spin things positively, remaining vague especially about his own spending.
• Controlling/Nurturing Dynamic: Christine admits she micromanages finances out of fear—"I'm a worrier. And he's an avoider." (08:35)
• Ramit spotlights Christine’s control tendencies as symptomatic: “You jumping in to solve the problems is actually part of the problem. And you’re even doing it with me.” (10:40)
• Thad agrees: “She wants to control things… it turns into a fight.” (10:56)

3. The Emotional Weight of Money (10:00–12:47)

Christine breaks down over her perceived lack of progress:
"I'm gonna be 50 years old in three years and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life. I can't get myself together enough and neither can Thad." (10:04)

• Ramit Responds: He points out that hyper-focusing on small problems (like a $50 medical bill) can be a way to feel in control when everything else feels out of control.

4. Childhood Money Scripts and Family Dynamics (39:50–54:46)

Thad:

• Raised by a single, financially illiterate mother; poverty shaped all expectations.
• Shame around debt as a recurring family narrative—inheritance squandered, material spending covering emotional holes.
• Vivid description: “I could never in my entire life have people over… even in our very poor neighborhood, my house was the dirtiest.”

Christine:

• Lower middle class, lived in debt cycles.
• Parents took out loans for her private schooling, affecting their financial security.
• “I have done everything I possibly can to be different than my parents. And I still feel like I'm in the exact same spot… not being able to get ahead.” (53:08)
• Operates from fear absorbed from parents—always worried about “ending up like them.”

5. Communication Breakdown and the Cycle of Inaction (16:57–18:41)

• Despite weekly “money talks,” Christine admits: “We are really not talking about money that much… it doesn't happen on most Sundays.” (07:47)
• They struggle with clearly naming the problem or solution; communication and trust are both lacking.
• Ramit: "You may not even understand the problem, much less the solution.” (18:02)

6. The Power of Shame & Illusion of Control (37:13–38:49)

• Thad admits to keeping secrets about how deeply in debt he is, especially around his student loans and issues with drinking and avoidant spending.
• Ramit: “There's something much deeper going on here… what I need from you is to accept that you need help.” (19:45)

7. Proportionality, Fairness, and Gendered Beliefs in Money (84:01–91:06)

Expense Splitting:

• They currently split expenses 50/50, even though Christine earns much less than Thad, leaving her strapped for cash.
• Christine avoids asking for a fairer (proportional) split: “Because like, I can't say, well, it's not my money, but give it to me so I can pay my bills.” (88:27)
• Ramit challenges her: “It is not fair or feasible to have one person with 78% fixed costs and the other person at 50%... and you never asked Thad for what you want.”

Key Turning Point:
Thad agrees to start splitting expenses proportionally (Christine 40%, Thad 60%)—immediately freeing up much-needed cash for Christine.

8. Confronting the Consequences of Inaction (59:00–61:00)

• If nothing changes, Christine foresees “a tiny, cramped life… no vacations… just living on sale bread.” (58:08)
• Ramit spells it out: “You are forced to move to a place that you… will probably not want to move to because, by definition, it will be undesirable… You’re literally getting the cheapest on-sale bread.” (60:14)
• Both reluctantly agree they’re willing to try “big changes”—drastic cuts to subscriptions and discretionary spending, and to budget for the soon-returning student loan minimums.

9. Building the New Plan (67:08–77:10)

• With recalculated expense sharing, reduced subscriptions (including “no NFL package!”), and a plan to channel $1,000+/month to investments and emergency fund, a sustainable path emerges—albeit a challenging one.
• Ramit points out the reality: “It’s going to take you six months to get one month of an emergency fund. So it’s a little slower than I would like, but at least we’re going in the right direction.” (73:13)
• They must both work for longer than they’d hoped, consider increasing income, and reframe “vacation funds” as true emergency savings.

10. Hard Conversations about Future Plans and Tough Decisions (77:10–98:17)

• Thad’s lack of urgency about increasing income is a sticking point:
  • Ramit: “If you had a gun to your head, could you do it?”
  • Thad hesitates: “Like who’s going to give me a job? What am I going to do?” (79:15)
• Ramit presses hard:
  • “If you told me right now, Ramit, you’re going to die in poverty unless you make more money this week, my answer would be very simple. Get out of my way. I’m going to figure it out right now. Not talking about work life balance. When the stakes are this high, Thad doesn’t have that urgency.” (83:18)
• Discussion of what happens “if this doesn’t work”—moving in with family, breaking up, or even homelessness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Christine (10:04):
  “I’m gonna be 50 years old in three years and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life.”
• Ramit (10:40):
  “You jumping in to solve the problems is actually part of the problem.”
• Thad (35:36):
  “If I have money in my pocket, I’m spending it. As long as I pay my rent and my food and the bills, then everything else is mine.”
• Thad (43:02):
  “I don't value [money] much. It comes, it goes, I waste it, I spend it, I drop it.”
• Christine (53:08):
  “I have done everything I possibly can to be different than my parents. And I still feel like I'm in the exact same spot of like not being able to get ahead.”
• Ramit (60:14):
  “If nothing changes, you are literally getting the cheapest on sale bread… that’s what we're talking about day to day.”
• Ramit (88:58):
  “You are being drowned financially. It's not fair. And you never asked for it because of a story you created in your head.”
• Thad (97:40):
  “I feel nervous about being able to remain committed to the things I've talked about tonight. I struggle with being honest and if I’m not 100% in, then… it’s not going to work.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------| | 03:42 | Introduction to couple’s debt-filled situation | | 08:35 | Christine identifies as a worrier; Thad as avoider| | 10:04 | Christine’s breakdown about “nothing to show” | | 21:07 | Net worth, debts, and reality check | | 39:50–54:46| Childhood money scripts & family trauma | | 59:00 | Projected future without changes | | 61:00–69:00| Budget overhaul and cutting subscriptions | | 77:10–81:07| Income urgency—“Get out of my way!” moment | | 84:01–91:06| The fairness of 50/50 splitting | | 91:32 | The emotional relief of proportional splitting | | 97:40 | Final reflections and nervousness about sticking to changes | | 99:17 | Three-week follow up: new momentum |

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Three-Week Later Follow-Up (99:17)

Christine:

• Thad is more engaged and responsible for his own finances.
• Subscriptions cut; most new income/bonuses go to emergency savings.
• Setting up more regular “money talks”—feeling like “equal partners.”

Thad:

• Understood his retirement situation is a “crisis.”
• Upping retirement contributions, found an old $45k fund, setting aside more for emergencies.
• Cut five subscriptions (“have not yet subscribed to the NFL package!”)
• Conversations with Christine now more positive and productive.

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Tone & Language Highlights

This episode is candid, emotional, at times tense—balancing Ramit’s firm, sometimes tough-love coaching with vulnerable admissions from Christine and Thad. The narrative frequently includes direct questions, interruptions, and reality checks, all delivered in straightforward, often humorous or confrontational language characteristic of Ramit’s style.

“You are not broke… you make $70,000 a year!” (Ramit, 24:20)
“What Christine needs is competence. Competence around money. Because competence is what builds confidence. And they also probably need a therapist.” (Ramit, 66:36)

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unfiltered look at what happens when a couple in midlife faces the consequences of years of financial denial, poor money scripts, and communication breakdowns. Ramit’s coaching pushes Christine and Thad to recognize the urgent changes needed—proportional expense splitting, radical spending cuts, income increases, and, most deeply, honesty about what’s really going on. The episode ends on a cautiously hopeful note, with both partners showing the first real signs of teamwork, responsibility, and intentionality.

While their journey is just beginning, the conversation exposes the very real and emotional struggles couples face in building a Rich Life together—when the past, present, and future all demand attention.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, listen up.

[Narrator/Host]

The schedule for the rest of my 2025 money coaching calls is out and we have an awesome lineup. On every call, I do a live breakdown of conscious spending plans, plus I answer members questions. So if you've been waiting to ask me a question about your finances, this is your chance. Members also get access to the library of all past calls, plus our supportive Money Coaching community and bonus course content that I don't post anywhere else. If you've been looking for a sign to join my money Coaching program, this is it. Check out iwt.com money coaching to join right now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching to join right now.

[Christine]

I worry about our lack of retirement accounts and I worry about our lack of savings. Since my savings account is at $101, we know I'm not saving.

[Thad]

I owe $125,000 to student loans on $17,000 principal. The rest is interest. We have been planning stuff or making a plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Dad, you don't have a plan.

[Thad]

I'm 57 years old. I'm only now on this point getting my finances and my stuff in order in life.

[Christine]

I ask him the same thing why he gets cash out and I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be tracked.

[Thad]

Every dollar I have goes to this household except for the money that I would waste it.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is not fair. You're not even married.

[Christine]

I'm going to be 50 years old in three years and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life.

[Narrator/Host]

Is it too late? What if you didn't start saving or investing when you were in your 20s or 30s? Today, we're about to get a look into this pressing question for tens of millions of Americans. In today's episode, I speak with Christine and Thad. She's 47, he's 57, and they do not have nearly enough money saved or invested to to retire on time. Each have six figure loans, which creates a toxic mix of frustration and complacency and even hopelessness. They're also not married despite being together for over six years, largely because they're afraid marriage would impact their debt payments. Watch as we unpeel layers of psychological fascinations, especially when we see how their psychology affects their numbers. I'm about to preview a few items from Christine and Thad's conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, income and where they spend their money. You can download and create your own conscious spending plan or [e-mail] CSP assets $0 investments $136,496 savings $2,612 debt $339,000 for a total net worth of negative $199,000. Their combined income is $167,625. Now this CSP is going to reveal a lot more in the episode. But first tell me in the comments, when did you start first managing your money in a serious way? What age? Why did you start then? And if you haven't yet started, that's okay too. I want to hear from you. Okay, now let's get into it with Christine and Thad. I want to give a shout out to our new Spotify viewers and listeners where we recently started releasing each Spotify episode in video format. And I love seeing all of our new viewers coming in and watching these episodes with real people sharing real numbers from behind closed doors. Big thank you to Spotify for your partnership. If you already listen on Spotify, click over to video. There is nothing like catching these subtle moments and facial expressions that, that you can't catch with audio alone.

[Ramit Sethi]

I understand you've been together for over six years. You've been living together for most of that time and you have spent that entire time in debt.

[Christine]

Yes, because I've spent my entire life in debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Got it.

[Christine]

But also my fixed costs are very high, so there isn't also a whole lot I can do about it. My half of the, you know, just living expenses are most of my paycheck.

[Thad]

Since we've been together, I don't think we've incurred any debt. We both brought debt into the relationship through, you know, our big debts. But once we started getting together and once we moved in together, right then at that point we were matching bill for bill. Anything over that, I didn't save.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean you were matching? What does that mean?

[Thad]

So like when we moved in together, we would split the rent. I would pay my half, she'd pay her half. You know, when we first started getting together, there was employment issues. So we've like one person has made more than the other a little bit and it's gone back and forth, but it's also gone up over that course of time. So over that course of time, we've been working together on the finances and we really haven't acquired much. Any debt in the six years.

[Ramit Sethi]

Has it gotten better or worse in six years?

[Thad]

It's gotten better.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's good. Meaning you've paid off debt?

[Christine]

Well, I think yes and no. So we're responsible for, like, our own debts right now. So I do have credit card debt and I've paid it down, but it's not going fast. But like, for example, we have actually accumulated some debt, but it's all been in the service of, like, paying down previous debts. I'm just going to throw you under the bus, dad. He got a master's degree and didn't finish paying the last bit of his tuition. But we needed his transcript and they wouldn't release it without paying the last bit of tuition, which was like $3,500 or something crazy. So we had to get a personal loan from our credit union in order to pay it. Because who has 30 $500 just laying around?

[Ramit Sethi]

Has what the two of you have been doing with money been working?

[Christine]

No.

[Thad]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, because I'm confused because we've only been talking a few minutes and I have gotten multiple contradictory answers. Do you have debt? Yeah, we haven't. Well, we haven't accumulated any, but actually we have accumulated some. Is it getting better? It's getting better, but it's also getting worse. I'm wondering what the pattern of your answers reveals.

[Christine]

Well, I think that Thad often likes to put a very positive spin on things, I guess.

[Thad]

Yes, I do. I do. I can tell you the big element that, you know, contributed. Like, I'll just figure it out myself. Whatever we need. So that's an avoider. Avoider or yeah, like try to do it myself and then, you know.

[Ramit Sethi]

But Thad, you're 57 years old. I mean, feel like if it was going to work, it would have worked.

[Thad]

I feel that, like, I understand the problem. I think that I'm doing the best that I can. I'm addressing every issue of the problem.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does that mean specifically?

[Thad]

Like, we're doing everything that we should.

[Ramit Sethi]

Be doing, but you're doing, you're doing it right now, Thad. You're, you're, you're presenting a positive spin. Like, oh, it's been good for the last few years.

[Thad]

No, it's still crap. They're so bad. But like, I'm learning, I've learned, you know, as where, you know, like I open mail now as before, I never opened mail. So that's, that's a step, you know, that's a step up, you know, so we talk about this a lot. Our dynamic between that, you know, I feel that I attempt to. I'm trying, right? I'm willing.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're not, you're not trying right now. In this very answer. I don't know, I'm getting lost. You got. You guys get lost when you talk about money, right? Is that.

[Thad]

Yes.

[Christine]

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to tell you. We don't really have a fight about money because mostly I'm just managing it all. And I'm saying do this and it's not getting done.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, that's.

[Thad]

That's our big fight right there. You know, like, we talk about money on Sundays. We talk about money a lot. We're doing it now. Like, right now we're talking about money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right?

[Thad]

We are always talking about money. And there. So, you know, and your opinion is rare.

[Christine]

We are really not talking about money that much. And we are set to have reoccurring conversations on Sundays during our set aside date time. And it doesn't happen on most Sundays. I guess it's so frustrating because the money is like, what we need to deal with.

[Thad]

We can't be fighting about the stuff that we can't control. And we. And we are talking about it and we are doing it together, except that.

[Christine]

We can control these things and we're just not. Because we're not talking about them, but.

[Thad]

We happen to be talking about it right now. We're talking about it right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can we do this? I'm actually gonna. I'm gonna flip the script. You've clearly thought about it, so I'm actually gonna turn it over to you.

[Christine]

Oh, geez.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think is the problem, and what do you think is the solution?

[Christine]

I'm a worrier. And he's an avoider. And so I worry a lot about our finances and I worry about our lack of retirement accounts, and I worry about our lack of savings. And he is an avoider. Although, I mean, true to what he's saying, he is getting better, but it still is. Like, why is this mail unopened? Recently, a medical bill sat on our counter for $50. Sat there for I don't even know how long, two weeks or something, until it got past due. And only then was, I look like, look, we just pay it and. And he logged in and it was paid in three seconds flat, you know, And I was just so irritated. That's like a really common, I think, example of how it goes. Then our normal conversation comes up on Sunday and he'll say, well, we already talked about money during the week. We've already had our conversation.

[Ramit Sethi]

I asked you to describe the problem and then tell me what you think the solution is.

[Christine]

Oh, the solution.

[Ramit Sethi]

Seems you got a bit Lost in the story because we didn't get to the solution. What do you notice about my question and your response?

[Christine]

That I'm both frustrated and I don't know the solution.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you think your problem is a fifty dollar medical bill on the counter?

[Christine]

No, I don't.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that's probably a symptom of something much larger. I noticed that you are a crier. I know you're crying now. Why is that?

[Christine]

Because I just find it so frustrating.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What part do you find frustrating?

[Christine]

I'm gonna be 50 years old in three years and it feels like I have nothing to show for my whole life. I can't get myself together enough and neither can that. It feels like we just keep doing the same thing where I have to micromanage all of our finances.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, if.

[Christine]

And that part can be really frustrating because I'm trying to get my own stuff together too. I'm trying to pay down my debt so that we can save more. And I'm trying to, you know, put some extra money aside and stuff, but it's not possible. And then I have to micromanage his finances on top of mine, and that can be very challenging.

[Ramit Sethi]

Sounds like a lot on your shoulders. Can I suggest a different approach? Sure. You jumping in to solve the problems is actually part of the problem. And you're even doing it with me.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Thad]

When I mentioned that she wants to control things, it turns into a fight. She want to or not admit, but she feels like she doesn't control, so we'll have a big fight. If I'm saying if I mention control.

[Ramit Sethi]

Or that, I'll stipulate and I will be willing to go out on a limb that Christine will agree that maybe she sometimes has the need to be in control. Christine, would you agree with that?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

When we feel out of control, we will often try to control the smallest things to give us a sense of control in an otherwise uncontrollable world. Christine, how is this striking?

[Christine]

You think it's what that says all the time. I just try to control things.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Take your time.

[Narrator/Host]

I want to jump in here because what Christine is feeling is a massive clue. Have you noticed how she communicates? It's frantic and I would describe it as controlling. Even here on this show, she seems to try to take over the room. Now, that might seem odd until you realize what this moment means for my guests to get here. They've gone through months of prep and applications, calls, filling out a csp, AV checks, all kinds of stuff. They've carved out times from their lives. So for them, this is not just a casual zoom call to a lot of guests. They see this as their one shot. So when someone like Christine tries to steer the entire conversation, it's not random. It's kind of like walking into a surgeon's office and then telling them how to operate. So I flipped it. I handed her the reins. Okay, Cristine, you tell me what the problem is, and then tell me what the solution is. And did you see what happened? She floundered. She brought up an unpaid bill, then jumped straight to, I'm going to be 50 and have nothing to show for my life.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's not a very satisfying answer, especially.

[Narrator/Host]

From someone who wanted to run this conversation. And I'm reminded of this classic psychology experiment called the invisible gorilla test. People were shown a video of players passing a basketball and asked to count how many times the ball is passed. Now, while they are watching these players pass the ball, a person in a gorilla suit walks directly through the entire scene. But half of the people watching this never even notice the gorilla. Their attention is so locked in that they miss what is obviously in front of their face. And that's what's happening here. She's so caught up in her story, her fear, her need for control that. That I'm not sure she can see what's right in front of her. And this happens to a lot of us, which is why it is so helpful to get a third party to talk to. If you find yourself stuck repeating the same painful story over and over, ask yourself a few questions. If this were happening to someone else, what would I say? When I react the way that I've been reacting for so long, Am I actually solving anything? Am I trying to control this outcome? Why? And finally, what am I not seeing? Everyone has an invisible gorilla in our lives. Sometimes it takes someone else to point it out. When you start a business, it can feel like you are a one person army. You got to build the website, figure out taxes, write the copy, design the logo, make sure you're actually getting customers.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, and don't mess it up.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Ramit Sethi]

But Thad, what about you? The problem is what in one sentence?

[Thad]

Communication.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's the solution?

[Thad]

Clear communication.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, why does she have to ask you to pay the bills? Your own bills?

[Thad]

Well, those are my poor life skills. I'm 57 years old and I'm only now on this point getting my finances and my stuff in order in life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I ask Thad the question again? What is the problem and what is the solution? In two sentences, please.

[Thad]

The problem is lack of clear communication between the two of us and trust in each other.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do we do it?

[Thad]

By going on a podcast and learning how to do it. I mean, you know, like, what? I'm responsive to the things that we, you know, coming up with plan and enacting them. Paying, you know, not just paying bills, but, you know, you know. No, I. I think I'm doing this stuff. Like, what am I not doing that's I need to do better? You know, like.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so that's. That's a problem.

[Thad]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thad thinks he's doing everything that he can. Christine, do you agree or disagree with that?

[Christine]

I disagree.

[Ramit Sethi]

How does that strike both of you that you may not even understand the problem, much less the solution?

[Christine]

Well, I do think that is the.

[Ramit Sethi]

Problem, that you don't understand the problem, I guess.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Thad]

Like, we have been working together lock, stock and barrel as far as what our objectives are and how we achieve those. Like, we have been planning stuff, and we are making a plan going forward.

[Ramit Sethi]

According to you, you have a plan and it's working.

[Thad]

Christina, you think we have a plan and it's working, albeit not fast enough.

[Christine]

I think we have a loose plan, but we have no clear idea how to get there, and we're clearly not there.

[Narrator/Host]

What about the debt?

[Thad]

The only debt that I have is my student loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's the debt? Payoff date?

[Thad]

I mean, never. I mean, who knows? That's what we know for.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what about retirement? How much do you need for retirement?

[Thad]

I have nothing in retirement.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much do you need for retirement?

[Thad]

Oh, I have no idea.

[Ramit Sethi]

How about how much do you need for an emergency fund?

[Thad]

We talk about having, like, $400 minimum, right? So we can get, like, a rug or this or that or things like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, that's not an emergency fund, Thad. You don't have a plan. Okay, guys, I really want to help you, but it's going to be very difficult if you're not ready to learn. You obviously have some serious financial challenges because you're in your 50s, 40s, and 50s, as you put it, broke, don't know anything about how much you need for retirement. And I want to help, but I can't help unless you are willing to accept the help. Trust me, you do not just need a budget. And trust me, you do not just need a plan. The. Some magic plan that I'll come up.

[Narrator/Host]

With, because if you needed that, you.

[Ramit Sethi]

Would have done it yourself. There's something much deeper going on here. But what I need from you is to accept that you need help. And right now, it feels like every time I ask a question, you're both resisting me and telling me why. Actually, it's not that bad.

[Narrator/Host]

Let me explain why I'm pushing them.

[Ramit Sethi]

So hard right now.

[Narrator/Host]

Christine and Thad are living in an alternative financial reality, and they don't even know it. They are in dire danger, but instead of acknowledging it, they're minimizing and justifying and spinning. They can't even answer basic questions like what's the problem? Or how much do you need to retire? But they're confident. Confident and wrong. And that's a very dangerous combination, especially when you are older. It's like their house is burning down and they're arguing about the paint color in the hallway. You can probably hear it in my voice, too. I'm getting less patient because I want them to take advantage of this opportunity and make a change. But first, they have to recognize that there's a major problem. Obviously, it's not working so far. So my job now is to play detective and find the angle that might have a chance of resonating with them. Let me try.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I'm going to ask Thad to read off this first box. Dad, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

[Thad]

Assets, zero. Investments, $136,496. Savings is $2,612. Debt is a total of $339,000. And the total net worth is a negative $199,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, what do you both think of those numbers?

[Thad]

The numbers didn't surprise me because I had an idea what they were looking at them is surprising because, you know, it's not. It's such a high negative number.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Christine, what about you?

[Christine]

We have a combined, like, quarter million dollars in student loans. I mean, if. If you were to, like, pull that out, because I don't think either of us will ever get our student loans paid off even before we die. I've been out of college 25 years, and I still owe $180,000. I'm never paying those off, even if I tried really, really hard and put, like, everything into it. So it kind of feels like those two things are. Those two student loans are on our back burner a little bit. Like, I'll pay the minimum and get it. Like, get that monthly payment made, but I'm not making any efforts to pay it off because I just won't get to $180,000 before I die, I think. But. So if you pulled those out. I think our numbers are, like, exactly what I thought they were. And it's not great. It's not a great picture, that's for sure.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does that mean? It's not great.

[Christine]

I'm not surprised that our assets were zero. We have no car and we have no house and we have no business. So I do wish our savings was higher, for sure. That's not even enough for an emergency fund. You know what I mean?

[Ramit Sethi]

Now, you two are not married, but for the purposes of the csp, we combine the numbers just for easy math, right? If we break those numbers apart, the $136,000 in investments, is that. Yes, Christine?

[Christine]

Yeah. I think my part of it is something like 127,000. No, 129,000 was mine.

[Ramit Sethi]

And of the savings, 2612.

[Christine]

Oh. I only have about 150 in savings.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then the debt, 339,000. How's that broken out?

[Christine]

It's like I said, it's primarily our student loans. He has about 120,000. I have 180,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's look at the income. Christine, can you read off your combined gross monthly income, please?

[Christine]

I can. It is $13,969.

[Ramit Sethi]

If we combine your income, just for easy math, then Your household makes $167,625 per year. Did you know that?

[Christine]

Yes, we did.

[Ramit Sethi]

Really?

[Christine]

Which is why it surprises us that we're in such financial straits.

[Thad]

It has, I guess.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on, hold on, hold on. You all are about to start going off into story land. Just answer my question. Did you know that you make $167,000 a year combined?

[Thad]

Yes.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's interesting, because, Christine, you told me at the beginning of this call, I'm broke and I don't make any money.

[Christine]

I don't, because only part of that's mine. Only $67,000 of it is mine.

[Ramit Sethi]

That doesn't sound broke to me.

[Christine]

Yeah, it sure doesn't. But I don't ever seem to have any money.

[Ramit Sethi]

You make $70,000 a year?

[Christine]

Not quite, but. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, even. I'm sorry, $69,465.

[Christine]

Do I make that much? I think I make only like 67,000, which does make a difference.

[Ramit Sethi]

Even in my example, you can't allow an approximation.

[Christine]

That's fair.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have to make sure that I know it's less. Why? Why? What does that get you?

[Christine]

I don't know. Some sympathy, I think.

[Ramit Sethi]

It doesn't work for me. You're not getting any sympathy right now.

[Christine]

The people listening to this podcast will feel bad for me because they know how little it is.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't think so, Christine.

[Christine]

Believe me, I am way under the average for a person in Arlington.

[Ramit Sethi]

Would you consider $167,000 a lot of money? Not a lot. What do you think? A lot.

[Thad]

I mean, yeah, a lot.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Christine.

[Christine]

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty much a lot. Yeah, that part of it is a little like, why do we feel pinched? Although I can look at the numbers and kind of guess where the problems are.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's do the rest. Let's look at the fixed costs here. Hold on. Wow, I'm surprised. Fixed costs are at 61%. I would not have expected that the way that the two of you talk about money.

[Christine]

Well, right, but you can see the personal breakdowns of the fixed costs where I shoulder about 80% and his is only about 50% of his income because we're paying exactly half of everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's a major problem.

[Christine]

So I feel very stressed.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let me explain what I'm seeing here. Christine is paying 78% of her take home pay to fixed costs while thad is paying 50% towards fixed costs. So considering that Christine is making a lot less than Thad, she's still paying 50, 50% of their rent. Okay, so we're going to talk about that fixed cost, but let's just go through the rest of it. Investments, zero savings. What? 3% combined. But I want to point out they're saving $175 for vacations, $100 for a sewing and improv class. But $0 for an emergency fund.

[Christine]

Yes, but don't explain.

[Ramit Sethi]

Don't explain it.

[Christine]

Okay, I won't.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're just looking at the numbers.

[Christine]

Okay, fair.

[Ramit Sethi]

36% combined for guilt free spending. Christine's guilt free spending is 17%. Thad's guilt free spending 49%. So Thad is spending essentially half of his take home pay on guilt free spending. What does that guilt free spending money go towards?

[Thad]

It's nothing in particular. It's a nickel and dime kind of situation. Food, Just wasteful spending. I don't know. Oh, well, I do have a daughter and so some of that goes towards that. Like her teeth and dentist and the costs for like school clothes and shoes and.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, well let's talk about that then. Thad, take us through your spending.

[Thad]

Suffice to say.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, no, no, I don't want suffice it. I want to know what you're Spending.

[Thad]

On clothes, shoes, food, and that's it. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much are you spending on clothes?

[Thad]

A hundred dollars a month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's the first thing you're mentioning to me. Close is a hundred dollars a month you're spending.

[Thad]

Is that right? No, 40 bucks a month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, it went down at most. What's all that stuff in the background of the videos that I see? What's your background?

[Thad]

Those are the board games. Hobby.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, how much did all those cost you, your interest?

[Thad]

Set one, Christina?

[Christine]

A lot. But we haven't purchased any new games in the last, like, three years.

[Thad]

We're doing the numbers, though.

[Christine]

We have cut that off.

[Ramit Sethi]

You guys ready to give me a real answer instead of trying to deflect?

[Thad]

It's 20 years worth of stuff, right?

[Christine]

I mean, I don't know. $10,000?

[Thad]

10,000. $10,000?

[Christine]

I have no idea. In truth, I don't know. It could be 5,000.

[Thad]

Yeah, 5,000 is a better number. 5,000 because. About 40 bucks, Bob. So about $5,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, five to $10,000 on games.

[Christine]

What else are you spending your money on?

[Thad]

I'm wasting it, that's all. Like, you're not.

[Ramit Sethi]

On what?

[Thad]

Food? Cigars.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much on cigars?

[Thad]

$15 every two days. So 30 bucks a week.

[Ramit Sethi]

You better redo that math. $15 every two days is not $30 a week.

[Thad]

About three times. Yeah, it's about 30, 40 bucks a week on cigars. Honestly.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much is that per month?

[Thad]

Let's say $200.

[Ramit Sethi]

$200. All right, fine. Yeah, food.

[Thad]

$300.

[Ramit Sethi]

$300 on food. Okay. What do you spend that money on?

[Thad]

Eating out.

[Ramit Sethi]

School.

[Thad]

Eating out at different times.

[Ramit Sethi]

Eating out at school. And what was the other one like?

[Thad]

I'm a teacher, and so I got for lunches about $12. Like a sandwich and a drink and chips.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tax tip.

[Thad]

Fifteen bucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, yes.

[Thad]

Yeah, no, of course. Tip. Of course. I was waiter for many, many years. Yes, I do. Tip. So let's say 20 bucks. About 20 bucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you notice what just happened? You said 12 bucks. The real answer is probably 20 or maybe even more. Right. People who are ashamed of money and who are in debt, they will often use ranges. They'll say something like, oh, it's like 12 to 15. It's actually more like 20. And they feel very, very uncomfortable being honest with how much it is. They always err on the side of less than they are actually spending.

[Thad]

Right? Yeah, I do. I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

You do?

[Thad]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so how much you spend per month on eating up?

[Thad]

When I say 300 bucks. 300 bucks.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have it on your credit card?

[Thad]

I do not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where do you spend the money?

[Thad]

I get cash.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Thad]

It's just old habit.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't know. I don't believe that because I.

[Thad]

Sometimes I'll lose the card. You know, like in the last couple years, I've lost the card. I don't use it. You know, what the.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is going on right now? This. This is not believable to me.

[Thad]

Right?

[Christine]

What? I ask him the same thing, why he gets cash out, and I think it's so he can hide his spending so that it can't be tracked.

[Ramit Sethi]

I. I just don't believe it. I don't believe that you only spend $300 a month on eating out. I don't believe that you only spend $40 a month on clothes. I. The way you're presenting it.

[Narrator/Host]

Oh, I'm me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Me innocent doe. I don't know where the money's going. You keep telling me on one hand I'm spending a bunch of money and I'm like, trying to figure out where because it's almost $3,000 per month. How are we getting to 3,000?

[Thad]

Okay, can I say, be fair, one thing?

[Ramit Sethi]

No, I just want to know the numbers. Where are you getting to $3,000 a month? I can't help you unless you tell me accurate numbers. The numbers you are telling me are not adding up.

[Thad]

That's.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's it.

[Thad]

All right. Hey, can we take a little break for a second?

[Ramit Sethi]

Sure.

[Narrator/Host]

I'm going to be really honest. When Thad asked for a break, I thought he was about to shut this whole thing down and leave. This is a very intimidating environment for my guests. They go through a lot of steps to get here. Their cameras. They're meeting me for the first time, and they are talking about one of the most intimate topics there is. Naturally, it feels really uncomfortable, but I think the discomfort goes deeper than being on a recorded video with a lot of couples. You'll notice the long pauses, often the over explaining and sometimes the same phrases that they've been using with each other for years and years, which suddenly fall flat when there's a third party involved. But then, to my surprise, Thad didn't leave. Watch what happens. There's this new ChatGPT agent feature that I'm playing with. It's like an agent out there looking for your perfect dinner reservation or flight or hotel booking. It's basically like a virtual assistant who doesn't sleep. I love this. I actually want more agents who are out there in my life, patrolling, making my life easier. That's why I use Delete Me. It's basically an agent that patrols for my personal information being leaked and then it automatically cleans it up for me. Here's how Delete Me works. You give them your information once and in about a week they will send you back a full privacy report. Where your data is, what they found and what they are removing. They scan a bunch of people, search sites and data brokers for your personal information, including your name, phone number, old emails, even relatives names. And then they get it removed and they keep going, patrolling, monitoring those sites all year to make sure that it stays gone. Delete Me built their own technology and they have real privacy advisors to help.

[Ramit Sethi]

You when you need it.

[Narrator/Host]

They've been the experts in this for over 15 years and they work with everyone from judges to journalists. I've trusted them to protect my own personal information and my parents too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit code Ramit for 20% off. One of my co workers is a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Copywriter and he told me that he.

[Narrator/Host]

Recently took Aaron Sorkin's screenwriting class on Masterclass. He said it completely changed how he writes. Screenwriting forced him to think differently about structure, pacing, holding attention. It's a totally different format than direct response copywriting, but it made his copy tighter, clearer, way more effective. That is what I love about a Masterclass membership. Sometimes the best lessons come from way outside your lane. For $10 a month, billed annually, a Masterclass membership gets you access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

One of my favorite masterclasses has been.

[Narrator/Host]

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[Ramit Sethi]

I've always loved beautiful design like in.

[Narrator/Host]

Some of the luxury hotels that I really really love.

[Ramit Sethi]

And I love when she took us.

[Narrator/Host]

Behind the scenes of the proper hotel to show us how she designed that architecture. Working with the existing building in place right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Ramit that's.

[Ramit Sethi]

15% [e-mail] Ramit masterclass.com Ramit Thad the amount you have left at the end of each month with Your income is 49% of take home pay, which is $2,820 and we can't quite figure out where's the money going.

[Thad]

Well, we ended up discussion and thought about it and sort of broke it down and I think a lot of it was going to sort of going out and sort of drinking and maybe hanging out with friends and partying and, and wasting money in that sort of limelight kind of situation.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much?

[Thad]

Whatever was left. I mean, I'm being honest with you.

[Ramit Sethi]

I appreciate it.

[Thad]

I try to. I said this in the beginning. If I have money in my pocket, I'm spending it. You know, as long as I pay my rent and my food and the bills I got to pay and I'm meeting my obligation and the relationship, then everything else is mine.

[Ramit Sethi]

Dad, did you grow up poor?

[Thad]

I grew up very, very poor, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What you just said is very typical of people who grew up poor.

[Thad]

I know that we over talk but like again these are issues that we've talked about and have been walking with for years. Maybe you're, I'm a little vague or that, but they are. I understand the relationship between my money and how I was taught and raised and how the habits I have now and it's been a very long struggle to break those. And the difference between self awareness and action is a mile apart. You know, it's hard to be completely open and honest when you can't be completely open and honest, you know and yeah. About the drinking and the alcohol and you know, and Christy and I have been talking about switching from living in the moment and having fun in the moment, which I will always do. Right. As opposed to putting money aside and saving it for the future. Right. That has always been a balance, you know, and the latter has never been something that's been. I thought about, you know, now I realize I'm going to reach a retirement age one way or another. I need to be prepared or not. You know, that's why I'm willing to be as honest I can with here.

[Ramit Sethi]

I appreciate the honesty. Without you sharing this. The rest of the pictures incomplete. It actually doesn't make any sense.

[Thad]

I know and I knew that. I'm so sorry because I was trying to fix the problem without telling you guys the whole truth.

[Ramit Sethi]

I appreciate that.

[Thad]

And I would say the one thing that I was embarrassed about coming onto the show for was that I owe $125,000 to student loans on $17,000 principal. The rest is interest because it just ignored it for 20 years. And you're like if such a minor thing you Know, at this stage in life, I could pay that, you know, but to have $17,000 balloon to 120.

[Ramit Sethi]

You'Re like, but isn't there some relief in being able to just shine a light on our deepest shame? Just to say, like, yeah, I didn't know. And also, I was negligent and irresponsible, and here I am. What's done is done. I. I'm coming here because I want to understand why. Why I behave the way I do. It's not okay anymore. I could tell my wife is not okay with it anymore. She's been crying for almost an hour. And I want something better for the next chapter of my life. So I put myself in your hands. Show me some ways to get there. That's how I approach this. Like, you tell me you have, you know, struggles with alcohol and. And student debt. Okay, Everybody's got struggles. I appreciate the honesty. I hope you can see I'm not here to judge. It brings that fuller light. And now we can really start to talk about what is truly going on here and what can we do about it. So thank you. I was surprised to hear he was keeping a secret.

[Narrator/Host]

And I don't mind secrets. I don't even mind being lied to on this show. It's part of my job. But usually people tell me the truth about the brain. Broad strokes. What I think we can see here is the powerful grip of shame. Like, you and I can deal with being angry or sad or even resentful, but shame is a very, very powerful emotion. It's often like emotional quicksand. When we feel ashamed, it's difficult to even talk about it, much less come up with a solution. That's why it's so important to get help. I also want to point out that I'm very sensitive to addiction issues. Not my place to ask anything here, nor am I qualified to. I don't know if he spent 1500 bucks or $150,000 on drinking in the last 10 years. I heard him. I acknowledged it. I filed it away and moved on. What matters is that he admitted it, and now we can move on to what's next. Because if he wants any shot at building a real financial future, this is.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where it's going to start. What do you remember your family saying about money?

[Thad]

Well, I. It was an active situation. Like, my mom was a single mother for a long time, was really bad at money at a very young age. I realized that, like, at the end of the week, it was going to be gone. I. Here. I'll Tell you, we would chase checks, we'd buy food, spend the money, go to a movie, and then for that entire week have to go to the grocery store to get cash and put in the bank to cover the check from the previous day. She would chase a check all week. Right. And I realized we're sacrificing a moment of play on a Sunday to have fun, but I see we don't have the money for it and we're doing a lot of work to cover that.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did you know you were poor?

[Thad]

I knew I was poor because of friends and like expansive life. So like I was babysitting, you know, and I'd see how other people lived. I also, my mom had this whole set of friends and around eight or nine, you know, they kind of said, hey, you have to start taking care of your kids more, your, your son more, you know, be more responsible. So it was an ongoing kind of narrative throughout, you know, our neighborhood. You know, like even in our very poor neighborhood, my house was the dirtiest of all the houses, you know, and I could never in my entire life have people over for. Never had friends over, you know, never had girlfriends over, you know.

[Christine]

Right.

[Thad]

Have to hide that kind of shame. And, you know, and I will say the biggest thing that impacts me, that I think impacts me the most is at the end of my grandmother's life, she had a whole inheritance. It was just an ugly scene to watch that play out. You know, my mom, who has resentments her whole life, doesn't want to spend a dime because it's detracting from her inheritance, not telling people things, you know. And like, I think in the end grandma passed and she had like all this money and didn't reveal it. And I did what I did when I was a kid, I said, you know what, buy me PlayStation 2 and I'll. And I'm gone. That's all I want. You have $200,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did your mom do with the $200,000?

[Thad]

I mean, look, it's just, she would buy thousand dollars chairs. Like we had these four chairs that are $1,000 each. And look, we had a house that had dog poop in the kitchen, you know, and I'm like, you're going to buy chairs that cost $4,000 to put them in a house that has dog poop in it. It's that God sized hole that you fill with things, you know, never gets filled. But, you know, she just kept spending and spending and spending, trying to fill it, you know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you see any similarities with your Mom's spending and your spending.

[Thad]

I mean, exactly. I mean, I've lived parallel lives, you know, and that's why I'm here. At each station in my life, I would look at, like, where my mom was, you know, and see the mistakes that I've done, that I'm following her path there. And, like, I don't want to go down the path, but my path. There's no other option out there. You know, even if we sit down here today and come up and I understand what a plan is, and we have a budget and I'm willing to work at all, you know, there's just the amount of time between now and then. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What lessons do you think you took away from your childhood as it relates to money?

[Thad]

I don't value it much. It comes, it goes, I waste it, I spend it, I drop it.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you spend it, you waste it, you enjoy it, and go get more.

[Thad]

And, you know, that's it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right. Basically, no big deal. Yeah. I think that's a pretty accurate lesson that you took away from your child. I mean, look at your mom. Yeah. Yeah, she would spend it, check Chase, do all this stuff. And. And if we take an honest look at her situation right now, sexually. Okay.

[Thad]

I also. I would tell my childhood I took away is. I never expected to live past the age of 30. Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your dad died at 30.

[Thad]

My dad was never in the picture. No one in my family that I know died at 30. I just know that everyone died. Like, it was just an arbitrary number. Like, in my neighborhood, just many, many people died.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[Thad]

They all die, like, in the 80s, like, a lot of drugs, like, crack hit our neighborhood.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where did you grow up?

[Thad]

Pittsburgh.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Thad]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow.

[Thad]

Yeah. I went to college and came back, and it was devastated by that epidemic. But even prior to that, like, not having, you know, a community where, you know, dads weren't present, you know, the family structure wasn't there. You know, understanding that it existed, we just didn't have it.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is really opening my eyes to. To your. You today with money. When you take me back. And I think it's a gift you're giving me. A lot of people cannot imagine what it is like to grow up in a neighborhood where you just don't see a lot of older men. Deja's not around. You know how many people from the time you were young to the time you were 30, do you know in your neighborhood that died?

[Thad]

I literally was telling my dog, talking to my daughter about this. You know, about this, because, you know, I'm Raising her, and she's a teenager, and I was going over, and I think that two thirds of the people I grew up, if not 85%, are dead or, like, in prison, but, like, I'm one of the few that I know made out of there.

[Christine]

I think it seems somewhat apparent, like, why he has the. I don't know, takes the actions he takes, I guess, spends the money and doesn't save it. I, too, did not have a good role model for that, and you can see where it's gotten me. I can appreciate when he's growing up with a single mom in a poor neighborhood, you know, if people around him are not living to an old age, why would you prepare for that?

[Thad]

It's, you know, I've known these mistakes, like living with this and battling this lack of money, you know, my entire life. And, you know, I've made some strides, but just when you're aware of it, it's, you know, that makes it frustrating, you know, and I have to break that habit of if I have it in my pocket, then I can spend it, or what? Or. Or I'll continue to be in debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you ever thought about it? Like, really thought about it? If I keep going on the path that I'm going on, I'm already in my late 50s.

[Thad]

I am homeless under a bridge.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you being for real?

[Thad]

I'm being 100% honest. I would be homeless under bridge, still trying to do standup comedy at the age of 70. And I'm a dreamer, so I still think for some reason, I'm going to make it big somehow.

[Narrator/Host]

My jaw was on the floor listening to Thad. It's one thing to hear someone say that they grew up poor. It's another thing to hear the vivid details of what that really means, like never inviting a friend over or. Or never expecting to live past 30. Most of us have no idea how deeply socioeconomic class shapes our life and even what we believe is possible. And this is what people mean when they use that word, privilege. You know, that word that everybody scoffs at. Think about the privilege you have. If you grew up in a family where someone said, of course you're going to college. That's privilege. If your parents took you to visit a campus when you were a kid and say, hey, one day you can go here, that's privilege. In fact, that's what my parents did. They told my sisters, you can go here to UC Berkeley. They told me, you can go to Stanford. And because they said it, because they showed it to us, it suddenly felt normal and possible. And that's actually where we went. Now imagine the opposite. Imagine growing up in a world where, according to your eyes, nobody really lives past 30, where you literally don't see old people around you because they're either bedridden or they all died. How could you possibly even think of planning for retirement when you don't even believe you'll make it there? This is why models matter. It's what people mean when they say representation matters. If you don't see it, it doesn't even feel possible. And here's the takeaway, especially for parents watching this show right now. If you're raising kids, think about the possibilities that you can open up for them. It could be college, it could be money, it could be anything. I remember my sister once competed in a powerlifting event and she brought her daughter to the competition. Imagine being a young girl and seeing your mom, who's a doctor, lifting more weight than most people can imagine. What do you think that does for a young girl's sense of possibility? That is the gift you can give your loved ones, your kids, your family, even your friends, exposing them to new models, especially you, living a rich life and being competent with money. Let them see what's possible. You've heard me say this with money before. Fight for simplicity. The more complex your system, the more things that can break. And it is the same in business now.

[Ramit Sethi]

As an entrepreneur and CEO, I have.

[Narrator/Host]

Seen tons of complexity in my own business. You can got accounting in one tool, HR in another inventory. If you've got it tracked in some random spreadsheet, every decision becomes a scavenger hunt. That complexity can kill your momentum. So we simplify. And that is exactly why I love what NetSuite is doing. NetSuite by Oracle is the number one AI cloud ERP used by over 41,000 businesses to simplify operations and make smarter decisions. It brings accounting, inventory, HR and financials into one system. No more jumping between tools, no more having to patch together reports. Just one source of truth. And because AI is built in, routine tasks get handled automatically, freeing your team to focus on what's important. If I had had this type of system when I was building my business from scratch, I would have loved it. NetSuite helps you cut through the noise, stay agile, and make faster, better decisions without having to guess. Speaking of opportunity, we download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com Ramit get it now for free at netsuite.com RamIT that's netsuite.com Ramit.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Take me back to your childhood.

[Christine]

Oh boy. Oh, thank God. I have another tissue right here. Huh?

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, tell me.

[Christine]

I would say that we were lower middle class. I grew up in a suburb of Cleveland. So basically what happened? When I was like 12ish, my parents decided we were going to move. So my mom says, oh, we drive into this new development. She wants to get a house in this development and it's going to have to be constructed from scratch. Of course. It's a brand new development. And so they had some model homes there, but they couldn't afford the model home so they literally had to make a smaller version of the model. It's been a while. But they had to make like a standard cheaper roof because it was like somehow like less material. All the garages were supposed to be side facing. They had to get a waiver to make a front facing garage. So they had to pour less concrete and that cost us less.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what happened?

[Christine]

So basically the house took all our money and my dad still doesn't have money to this moment. He still hasn't paid off the house. It's been 35 years.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did you learn from that as a 12 year old?

[Christine]

That I wish my dad could have said no.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay.

[Christine]

I did find out years later, like kind of more recently actually, that my brother and I went to private school for like first grade through 12th grade and they had to take out loans to pay for it. And so like those kind of things frustrate me when I'm so much in, in student loan debt where you're like, couldn't you go save some of that money to help me pay for my school or something?

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you ever talk to them about that?

[Christine]

I have talked to them a lot about it and it just kind of was the decision they made. They felt very strongly that I have a Catholic school education.

[Ramit Sethi]

And it's really interesting. I've spoken to several parents on this podcast who insist on sending their kids to private school.

[Christine]

They that was their rich life, I guess, sending me to a private school. And I have a younger brother too, so we both went. But there were other things too because, well, you know how much I own student loans. So a lot of it was my undergrad. I had also gotten a half ride to, to eastern Michigan and I. But I didn't want to go to eastern Michigan. I didn't think it was like as great. I went to Duquesne. I loved it and I want to go there, but it was like more expensive.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did you Decide not to go to the school where you had half tuition paid for.

[Christine]

In truth, I was a stupid 18 year old. I didn't understand and everyone around me because, you know, this was almost 30 years ago and nobody was talking about student loans at that time like we are now. So my dad was like, oh yeah, it's fine, that's cool. But then I have been stuck with the burden of the student loan since then. You know what I mean? It's just very frustrating, I think.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who are you frustrated at?

[Christine]

I think in truth, mostly my parents. They spent a lot of my childhood robbing Peter to pay Paul. And you know, electricity would get turned off, our cars would break down side of the road all the time. It just, it was always like we were in debt and never could get out of it. So, you know, it just. I think my dad struggled to ask for help as well and so would get himself into maybe a financial situation, but didn't know how to get himself out and would think he had to do it.

[Ramit Sethi]

What lessons did you grow up with relating to money that you bring to this relationship?

[Christine]

Whoa, that, that is actually a really tough one because I have done everything I possibly can to be different than my parents. And I still feel like I'm in the exact same spot of like not being able to get ahead. I mean, despite my paltry savings account, it certainly is more than they have. My, my investment accounts are more than they have. I'm aiming for finance.

[Ramit Sethi]

You to compare yourself to your parents?

[Christine]

I don't know. I don't think I learned any lessons from them.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine, I'm not asking you to compare yourself to your parents. I'm asking what lessons did you observe or absorb that you are now bringing to this relationship?

[Thad]

I think that you have taken their lessons and internalize them into a fear of yours and sort of like operate from that. I mean, that's what I kind of think. I think that you see what their lives, the choices they made, and you prescribe your own feeling to that and then you. That's fearful for you.

[Ramit Sethi]

You operate from fear. Do you agree, Christine, or disagree?

[Christine]

Oh, I agree. 100.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's. That's kind of profound. Good, good point. That I always say the partner knows best. If you are stuck, sometimes you just ask your partner. They. They know. They've been watching it for years. Christine, how come that didn't come up when I just asked you?

[Christine]

Well, that is what I was saying. I was trying to be different from my parents because I'm afraid of being like them.

[Ramit Sethi]

But you're still afraid today.

[Christine]

Well, right, because we're not financially stable.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ah. So if you were financially stable, you would not be afraid, Is that what you're saying?

[Christine]

That's correct.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And have you taken specific steps to become financially stable?

[Christine]

I've tried.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh. That.

[Christine]

It's not been successful, but I have tried.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you feel about your student loan?

[Christine]

Indifferent. I don't think there's any hope of paying it off before I die, so I just am not making a very concerted effort.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have $180,000.

[Christine]

Yeah, but what am I supposed to do about that? I only make $67,000 a year.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I, I, I. I'm not talking about solution. I'm talking about how do you feel about that debt?

[Christine]

I did not understand the ramifications of my decision. I think people had told me I would make enough money to pay it, but the truth was I didn't. And I do feel indifferent because I have no interest in really making any effort to pay my student loan. I will pay the monthly payment, but I'm not gonna make extra payments.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, fine.

[Christine]

When it's never going to get paid off.

[Ramit Sethi]

And, Thad, how do you feel about your $120,000 loan? In a word or two?

[Thad]

Shameful and overwhelmed.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's more common.

[Christine]

I mean, I get that, but what am I supposed to do? I mean, it's been around for 25 years. It's not getting paid, so. Okay, I'm doing my best, but I have other debt that I can actually pay off and make, like, a difference in my life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Mm.

[Christine]

The student loan. I just.

[Thad]

But it's something that we talk about a lot. We feel overwhelmed. We're not gonna be able to pay it. It's a constant hindrance in our lives. It's the reason why we can't get ahead, kind of. That's the kind of narrative that the student loans play in our, in our conversations.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that you use the word narrative. Yeah, I love that. Because so much of the way that we treat our money is purely a narrative. Yeah. How old is your daughter?

[Thad]

14.

[Ramit Sethi]

14. Remember when she was, like, 4? Like, 3? 4? It's all, like, making up stories, you know, I'm flying on a unicorn, that type of thing. Adults are actually not much different. So much of our relationship with money is essentially a fairy tale.

[Christine]

Yeah, I mean, I see what you're saying. It's not making me more interested in paying them.

[Narrator/Host]

Hearing how Christine grew up with her parents racking up debt, it's no surprise that Xi is caught in the same exact cycle today. And this is the unfortunate reality for millions of Americans. Compound interest can work for you or it can work against you. In this case, it works against them. Ballooning into something so overwhelming they've basically just filed it away. And they try not to think about it. But of course, what does that do? Ignoring it only makes it worse. Which is one reason that so, so many people feel crushed by their loans. The weight is so heavy that they just give up. They stop opening statements. They stop imagining what life could look like without that debt. But on this show, we don't run from what's uncomfortable. We actually go straight through the fire. So if you are in a similar situation, buried under loans, not even sure how to start, you don't have to do it alone. In my money coaching program, I show you step by step to take control of your money, Build a plan and then stick with that plan so you follow through. You can sign [e-mail] money coaching. Now listen as I push Christine and Thad to face the consequences of years of inaction, see if we can finally.

[Christine]

Create a plan for that in the next 10 years. Of course, I anticipate that that is going to retire and I do worry because I certainly have more in my retirement accounts, but it's not enough to support us both.

[Ramit Sethi]

What will happen?

[Christine]

Well, we've talked about moving to a lower cost area Once his daughter's out of high school. She's just going to be a freshman and starting it in two weeks. So we've got four or five years before that could even be a reality. We could go back to one of our two hometowns, Pittsburgh or Cleveland would, I think be good choices for us and have family nearby. But I think we're going to have to live in, you know, maybe small, cramped quarters. Still no car, relying on public transportation in areas where that's not as possible as it is here. I definitely don't think we're going to be able to take any vacations. I enjoy to get a pedicure. And I used to get one just once per year on my birthday. And we have increased that kind of recently in an effort to have a more rich life. I think that those kind of things obviously couldn't be little splurges anymore. It just is. I think we'll just have to live a tiny, cramped life.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, dad, what about you? If nothing changes 10 years from now.

[Thad]

I have a little bit of a different view. I'm more optimistic about it. I don't think that it's going to be cramped. I still think that somehow, you know, like, we'll move to a place that we want to live. So I. I mean, something like the Maine or the Northwest, you know, like, I think that like in four years when we are out of the high school, then I think the future opens up. Then, you know, we can do it when we want. I don't necessarily think that that's going to be a downward trend.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about the money part of it?

[Thad]

I'm not afraid of not having money.

[Narrator/Host]

Just.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just to put another way of looking at it, right now, the two of you have a savings of $2,612 total. You have $136,000 invested. You know, if we're, you know, being relatively conservative, you know, maybe you take, I don't know, $6,000 a year, withdrawal from that amount. What are you going to do with $6,000 a year? Nobody can live on that. You don't own a house. So your housing costs, even if you go somewhere cheaper, still going to exist. Now we're talking about Social Security, and if you know anyone who takes Social Security, it's. It's not a lot of money. We're talking poverty line, below poverty line. I guess what I'm trying to get at is like, let's get really specific here. If nothing changes, the way I see it, there's no vacations. You are forced to move to a place that you will probably not want to move to because it, by definition will be undesirable. You don't eat out. You're. You're literally getting the cheapest on sale bread. That's what we're talking about day to day. What do you guys think of that?

[Thad]

Yeah. And how should I feel about that?

[Ramit Sethi]

I think you should feel extremely terrified. Okay, are you all prepared to make some big changes or do we want to make little changes?

[Christine]

I personally am prepared to make very big changes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, dad.

[Thad]

Yes, I'm prepared to make big changes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love it. Let's do it.

[Thad]

Can we have the options for little ones, too? Just so g. Just kidding.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your fixed costs are at 61%, which again, is striking to me. A couple of things I want to highlight here. Your car payment, slash transportation is extremely low. So what, are you taking the train?

[Thad]

I ride my bike.

[Ramit Sethi]

You ride your bike, great.

[Christine]

We use metro and bus. In other.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love it. I love public transportation. If you had a car, your numbers would be over 70. Great job. Keep it up. Let's look at the rest of it. Phone at 170, whatever. Subscriptions at 207. No way. Drop that.

[Christine]

I don't know. Does NFL Sunday ticket go?

[Ramit Sethi]

If you're asking me, the answer is yes. That should have gone in the first place.

[Christine]

No, I was talking about that. I'm sorry, not. You were me. Because that actually saves us money by him not going out to watch the game with friends and then eating food.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's.

[Christine]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

NFL is gone. A family with $339,000 of debt does not have an NFL subscription. I'm sorry.

[Thad]

It's gone. Out of there.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, thank you.

[Christine]

It's because we're still on this zoom call.

[Thad]

I think we are here to learn and, like. Okay, buy into this. Let's just do this.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thank you. Let me put it this way. If you guys are faking it for me, good luck.

[Christine]

I'm not, but I'm saying, like, I don't think.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine.

[Christine]

I don't know. I'm being realistic.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine.

[Christine]

Yes?

[Ramit Sethi]

Your need to control is showing up right now. Okay, what is the new subscription number, please?

[Christine]

I mean, yeah, it's at zero dollars.

[Thad]

Okay.

[Christine]

I mean, it does seem, like, extreme, but. Yeah. No, we can cut.

[Ramit Sethi]

We cut. What? What seems extreme to me is having $339,000 of debt and almost no savings at age 57. I don't think you're prepared for the type of changes you need to make. This is the easiest thing we're going to do on our whole call. $207. Christine.

[Christine]

Yes?

[Ramit Sethi]

What's the indecision here?

[Christine]

I don't know. I actually don't know.

[Ramit Sethi]

But it's you.

[Christine]

Yeah, it is me. It's only me.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that you are surprised that that is actually participating with money, that he is actually moving in a direction that would produce a healthier outcome. I think you don't believe it. I think you think it's too good to be true. And the minute we hang up this call, it's going to go back the way it is. You think that by decreasing the amount you have to cut, he might actually follow through, but that's not how it's going to work. Either he's going to do it or he's not.

[Christine]

Right?

[Ramit Sethi]

I need you to understand that you have to be willing to ask for what you need.

[Narrator/Host]

And, Thad, you also need to be.

[Ramit Sethi]

Willing to ask for what you need because you're 57. In other words, you can't both be fighting each other on this. You actually both need to be a team. And you need to be having an upward spiral. Otherwise you're doomed.

[Thad]

I believe in you, Christina. And you can believe that I will be there. How about that? If you believe that, I will put my best forward effort and walk away with you hard.

[Christine]

Because so many things I've asked him to do over the years, and they don't get done. And so I don't feel like this is gonna get done. It's just hard.

[Ramit Sethi]

I get it. I get it. There's a lot of scars when you ask your partner and they don't do it. They either outright refuse, they kick the can down the road. They let a piece of paper sit on the counter for six months. It really causes scars. And at a certain look at this, Christine can't even believe that Thad that you will cut an NFL subscription. Do you see the effects that your behavior has had on Christine?

[Thad]

I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I don't know if the two of you are going to stick with any plan that we come up with. I don't know. And actually, that's not really my responsibility. I can't control your finances. I'm not here to be the magical savior. It's your money. You all got yourself into this situation, and the only people who will pull you out will be the two of you.

[Thad]

You.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's it. It's really as simple as that. Now, you might make it. I hope you do. I'll give you as much support as I can on this call. And my community will rally behind you, watching, seeing how you follow up, all of that.

[Christine]

Thank you.

[Ramit Sethi]

But you might not. And I think that's important enough to know as well. And if notad, now is the time to listen. If you don't change, then we are also going to talk about what steps you might take, because right now, this is unsustainable.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

It simply cannot work.

[Narrator/Host]

You can hear the scars in Christine's voice. Years of asking, years of him not following through. And this isn't just about that. Christine says, I asked him, but she didn't ask, actually ask for exactly what she wanted. Everyone listening needs to hear this. That skill of asking for what you want is one of the most important and underdeveloped skills to living a rich life. And I say that as someone who's working on this very thing in my own relationship. What Christine needs is competence. Competence around money. Because competence is what builds confidence. Confidence. And they also probably need a therapist. Christine is skeptical of that. Fine. I'm skeptical, too. But if we both stay in skepticism forever, nothing changes. We could End the call right now. And they would walk away with nothing changing. Instead, we're going back to the numbers to find a different way to tackle this.

[Ramit Sethi]

Subscriptions. What number should I put in? $0, thank you very much. Dad, do you agree?

[Thad]

I agree.

[Ramit Sethi]

Zero it is. Let's watch what happens. Your fixed cost dropped to 59%. All of that work was not a waste. But I do want to point out we spent probably 10 minutes talking about that one number. It dropped your fixed cost by 2%. Not much. Do you all see that?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

We need to be playing big. Way bigger.

[Christine]

I think our cable bill is to. I think it's this one. 23559. Where is that part of the utilities?

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, you want to drop that?

[Christine]

Okay, well, it's the only other big, like, expense that we actually. We can't control our rent right now, so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, you want to drop it?

[Christine]

Yeah, we go. I think it goes down to 200. Then if it's 436 and this is 235.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, it drops down to 200. Watch this. Utilities going down. Whoa. We're at 56%, guys. This is really impressive. Okay. I'm liking it. I'm loving it, actually. Can we keep moving?

[Thad]

Yep, let's go.

[Ramit Sethi]

By the way, that nice TV you have, you know, on the wall, it's going to be a beautiful picture frame of just black. It's perfect. Like, we call it darkness. Ah, perfect. Never turn that thing on. Can I just point something out? Do you realize that you have $4,000 per month to spend wherever you like?

[Christine]

I'm sure it doesn't feel like it.

[Ramit Sethi]

But I know it doesn't feel like it.

[Christine]

That is what the chart says.

[Thad]

I want to figure out where the best place to put it. I don't want to just say I'm acquiescing to it, but, like, whatever we think think is the best and most appropriate use of the money, I. That's where I wanted to go.

[Christine]

Well, I think we do have to hear budget for both of our student loan payments. Neither one of us is making our student loan payments right now. And they're coming back in October.

[Thad]

Mine's like 6, 7, 3 5. A month.

[Christine]

Yeah, mine's somewhere around 500amonth.

[Ramit Sethi]

So 1200. Let's say 1300.

[Christine]

Yeah, we do have to budget for that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's say 13. And that's minimums.

[Christine]

Yeah, those are minimum.

[Thad]

Those minimums.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you know the interest rate on those?

[Christine]

I want to think it's like 6%. It's outrageous.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. You're already paying $800 a month towards debt. That's for what, the credit cards?

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I'm going to add $1,300 to the amount of debt payments which is going to take you to 2092.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Your fixed cost jumped up to 70%. Okay. Sometimes debt payments artificially inflate that number. In this case, it's. You're going to be paying it off for a long time.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So we're going to look at that in a minute. But let's go down. You still have $2,635 a month.

[Christine]

Yeah. Put it in his retirement account.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's it.

[Christine]

Yeah. Well, into our savings. I said that to our savings into our retirement account.

[Ramit Sethi]

So how much?

[Thad]

I don't know. I'm willing to see how much would be a good number.

[Christine]

Half.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's put $1000 a month towards investments and let's put $1000 a month towards long term emergency fund. I am going to. Realistically, you all are not doing this sewing in photography class.

[Christine]

No, that was one time.

[Ramit Sethi]

Vacations at 175. I'm sorry to say. You have no vacations.

[Christine]

Well, it's not vacations. That was our savings. Like we only have one savings account is what it is.

[Ramit Sethi]

But it's literally labeled vacations.

[Christine]

I mean, I have the idea of going on a Viking cruise. I really want to go very badly. But you know, it's not in our budget right now and that feels frustrating.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm not trying to be hard on you guys, but look, look at this. You guys cannot afford to take vacations. That's it.

[Christine]

And we don't take vacations. It's not really for vacations. That's what I'm talking. It's just our savings account.

[Thad]

Yeah. So you can zero that number out.

[Christine]

It's for anything we need for our house in an emergency.

[Ramit Sethi]

No.

[Thad]

So it's an emergency fund.

[Ramit Sethi]

Stop. We don't put money in a vacation fund that is not really for vacations. You're not respecting money when you put money for one thing. But you deep down, you know you're going to tap into it when you need it. That is not how we respect money. We need to fill up an emergency fund and we need to be honest with each other. We are not taking a vacation in the near term. That's it. So there is no vacation fund. There is no vacation savings. None of it. It doesn't exist because it's not going to happen. Part of living a rich life is you need to Be honest with yourself and honest with the people you love. Right now you're not doing either that. Have you talked about college for your daughter?

[Thad]

Other than like as throughout life, but no, I mean, at this point, like.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, how's she planning to pay for it?

[Thad]

I would be paying for, you know, I mean, like loans or something like that. I don't know. We haven't talked about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean, let's talk about it right now. Dad, you cannot afford to pay for your daughter.

[Thad]

Okay?

[Ramit Sethi]

It's as simple as that. There is. There's no possible way. That's it. That's really hard for parents to hear. You know, my parents didn't pay for my college. They told us point blank. They're like, of course you're going to college. We expect that. But we don't have money for you. So you're gonna have to find a way. You're gonna have to get scholarships, etc. And we did. Sometimes some of my siblings took out loans. I'm not saying that everybody can do it. What I am saying is that my parents were very honest with us and it actually didn't make us feel bad. We're just like, oh, okay. That's what we knew. We can't. They laughed. They're like, we don't have any money. What do you want us to do?

[Narrator/Host]

We have no money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Thank you for telling me. This is the kind of honesty that I want with money. When I say you got to be honest with the people we love and with ourselves. This is what I mean. Are we good to continue on with the numbers?

[Christine]

Sure.

[Thad]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

First of all, these numbers have dramatically shifted. Your fixed costs have gone up. They've gone up from roughly 60% to 70%. That is primarily because you are paying a lot more towards debt. Okay. And we also did drop a little bit of the subscriptions and cable. So you actually blunted that number going up. Good job. I think that's really good. Your investments are at 10%. They are actually a little bit higher than that if we count all the pre tax investments, because that is making some pre tax 403B. So it's at least 10%. Probably like 15%, something like that. Your savings are at 12%. We have all of the money, $1,175 being directed towards a long term emergency fund. It's going to take you six months to get one month of an emergency fund. So it's a little slower than I would like, but we're at least we're going in the right direction and then guilt free spending. You have $735 left over, total per month. 8%. Now, normally I would say 8% is pretty low. You know, typically I like to see that number 20 to 35%. The fact is you have to start living on way less.

[Narrator/Host]

Way less.

[Ramit Sethi]

8% is fine. If I were being aggressive about it, I would do it on 3 to 5%. But I don't think right now you have the capabilities to do that. It's hard to go from 40% down to 8%. So I want to be realistic. How does it strike you so far?

[Thad]

For me, it. I like it. I'm paying the bills, the student loans. I think that makes me feel good. I feel more complete that way. So I like seeing the plan laid out in front of us.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Christine.

[Christine]

I mean, the numbers are stark, but I think it's going the right direction for sure. I'm on board with it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where are we going to end up? That's what we need to know. Is it enough? I want to plug these into my investment calculator. You can just search Ramit calculators and you'll find a series of calculators. We'll use the investment one. So you are starting off with $136,000. You're going to invest $1000 a month plus dad's amount. So let's make it 1500 just for easy math. How about that? Is that fair enough? Dad, are we approximately 500 bucks a month pre tax?

[Thad]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

How many years will you keep investing? Thad, you're 57, so why don't we say eight years? Just to see.

[Thad]

Just to get a number? Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so if we include both your investments all together, you two will have $430,000.

[Christine]

But you didn't include my contributions to that. If that's our joint.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have more pre tax that you're contributing?

[Christine]

Wait, 401k. $200 a month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Christine]

No, 230. I'm sorry. 230.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so you're going to have $460,000. Okay. And let's take a look at what that means. You will be able to safely withdraw $18,000 per year for retirement.

[Christine]

That is not enough.

[Ramit Sethi]

No.

[Christine]

We would clearly be living in a cardboard box next to the ditch on the side of the road.

[Thad]

Just say not happy. I guess not completely.

[Christine]

No, we wouldn't. We wouldn't even bill afford anything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. What are your options?

[Christine]

I mean, I can personally increase my investments, but I'll also be working longer. I probably have 20 years left of working. Okay, so I've got longer to invest than he does.

[Ramit Sethi]

I like where you're going with time. Time is one of your number one variables. Thad, I don't think you're going to retire at 65.

[Thad]

I don't think so either.

[Ramit Sethi]

Shall we take a look at the numbers then? If we calculate this for not just eight years, but let's make it 13 years, suddenly you have $776,000. You could withdraw $31,000 per year.

[Christine]

I mean, it's still not a lot, but certainly more than it was.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, it's going in the right direction. Let's not, let's not forget Social Security. Again, not a lot, but at this point we actually need to factor that in.

[Christine]

And I'll still be working seven years past that, so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes, you will.

[Christine]

You know, I'm hoping to get a higher paying either position at my company or a different job that pays more.

[Ramit Sethi]

Could you make that happen for sure?

[Christine]

No, I will not at my company. I'd have to leave my company to get a higher paying job right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Could you do it?

[Christine]

Yeah, I could do it, sure, if there's one available. I live in Washington D.C. where basically all the federal employees just got laid off. So job market's a little stiff, but I, I'll have my eyes out looking.

[Ramit Sethi]

It is one of the most important things you can do is for you to increase your job salary. And so I know that it's very, very difficult right now in the federal government, but when it comes to where you are putting your energy, putting it towards finding a higher paying job will be one of the most important things you can do.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thad, what about you? What about your income?

[Thad]

I, I intend on increasing my income considerably. Like in the next five years or so. Like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't care about five years. I care about five months. At this stage, we don't have five years.

[Thad]

In five. Oh, in five months. Oh, no.

[Ramit Sethi]

How can you do it? Not know. How can you do it?

[Thad]

You have to get a new job in five months.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't know. That's one way to go.

[Thad]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

What else?

[Thad]

Oh, am I sa. What I'm saving now is what I'm doing right now.

[Christine]

You do have to increase your savings.

[Ramit Sethi]

You need more money, you need more income. How?

[Thad]

In addition to working more than I could do, I, I could pick up more work. I mean, I can, you know, I could get more jobs. I mean, you know, like the next things. Well, so when school starts, I do math. That's like extra 550. I'm a math coach for the team.

[Ramit Sethi]

For the really?

[Thad]

Which team?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, 550 per what?

[Thad]

Oh no, that's like a wants time thing, you know. So I do like, I do like the tradings and like the extra income stuff for teachers throughout the year.

[Ramit Sethi]

I need more than that. You need more than that? Not me. You need.

[Thad]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tutoring.

[Thad]

Tutoring. It's kind of hard.

[Ramit Sethi]

Life is hard. Having $339,000 of debt is hard. And being poor when you're older is really hard.

[Thad]

It's gonna be. Yeah, no, but instead of tutoring somebody else's kid, I'm tutor my own kid at a time. So. And I, you know, and that's a choice I would have to make because she's struggling. I need to make sure you like, I have energies. I understand. I need to make that energy. But hard.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't know the.

[Narrator/Host]

I don't know what that word means.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you have this much debt and you're going to retire in abject poverty. Right? Yeah. I guess we're speaking different languages.

[Thad]

I don't know how much, what job I can pick up now and how I can increase like my salary in six months.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you had a gun to your head, could you do it? Yeah. Wow, that's quite a telling response.

[Thad]

Like who's going to give me a job? I mean, what am I going to do?

[Ramit Sethi]

That's, that's. I find this extremely fascinating. If somebody told me, ramit, you have no business. Everything shut down and gun to the head, could you find a way to earn more money? I didn't even tell you how much money. I just said more. My answer would be, I don't need six months. Give me five days. Get out of my way. I'm done with this conversation. Come back to me on Friday. I'll find a way. What is the difference?

[Thad]

And there isn't a difference.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do I say it that way and you don't?

[Thad]

You're asking me to get another revenue income stream, which is fine. Right. And I'm willing to do that in any manner that I can do. What that would look like and what that is, I don't know, like a evening job. Like to work, get like subway after school. Right. What I was saying before, there is that work life balance. Right. As far as like if my daughter is. I'm taking care of her as well. I have to be part of her life as well. If I say I work until I come home at six and I take an evening job and I work overnight, like how much work additional job should I get? Right. And be content with and say, hey, I'm content. This is a stateable pattern for the next 13 years. Right. And being able to meet the obligations, I'm willing to do that by just making sure that, you know, the priorities are there. If that's pushing back, I don't mean to push back, but you know, I'm just.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, I think right now you have $31,000 a year. You're in retirement.

[Thad]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that's if the two of you combine your income.

[Christine]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't personally really mind if it's Subway or waitering or tutoring or a second. It doesn't matter to me. It's actually not my life where the money is going to affect it.

[Narrator/Host]

It's yours.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that is why when you are asking me what kind of job are you talking about? It's actually what you're trying to do unconsciously, although you don't realize it's is you're trying to delegate the problem back to me. You're tossing me the ball and I'm actually tossing it right back to you. I don't know if you want to work at Subway, you want to work at the mall, if you want a tutor, it's up to you. Because you and the two of you will be the ones who experience the after effects of your decisions.

[Thad]

Right now, when school starts, we could pick up weekend tutors.

[Christine]

Yeah, if there are some at your school, I prefer that because honestly, you know, I don't want to be at home with a 14 year old by myself like all evening. Sorry, man. Not doing it. So the parenting is a tough job and it takes like all the dedication and ultimately she isn't my child, so like a lot of the decision making isn't mine. So if I'm the only one here all the time, it doesn't work that well.

[Narrator/Host]

I'm sorry, but if you're in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you don't get to ponder the finer points of work life balance. I am genuinely mystified right now. All I can think about is all the immigrant parents I know who came to America and did whatever it took to be able to become financially stable. I remember recently I was in Atlanta doing a live event. My Lyft driver picked me up and he looked back, he goes, ramit Seti. He knew who I was, he recognized me. He was an economist in Ethiopia and he now drives a Lyft while listening to podcasts to learn how finance works in America. He was an economist. Now he drives a Lyft. I think about the Indian parents who work at a gas station or the Chinese family who runs a restaurant with their kids seven days a week. And if you ask them about work life balance, they would say, what? That's the world I grew up in. Our work ethic was insane because it had to be. That was the only way we could do it. Now I love balance. Life is different now, but it would only be possible because of what I learned from my parents and all the other people surrounding us as kids. I appreciate balance, but my definition of hard work is completely different.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like if you told me right now.

[Narrator/Host]

Ramit, you're going to die in poverty unless you make more money this week, my answer would be very simple. Get out of my way. I'm going to figure it out right now. Not talking about work life balance. When the stakes are this high, Thad doesn't have that urgency. And I don't think he truly understands the situation he's in. What's scarier is, even if he did understand it, that doesn't mean he would be successful in changing. But in order to even have a shot at being successful, you have to recognize the severity of your situation. You have to be honest. The next difficult subject that we're going to tackle is something I have been waiting for a long time, for hours to unpack with them. It's one of the major cracks in their financial foundation. Do you know what I'm referring to? Let's take a look.

[Ramit Sethi]

Look at the difference in income and look at the way that you have split your fixed costs. What do you notice?

[Thad]

We, we had, we just had a conversation about this not too long ago.

[Ramit Sethi]

About, like, just tell me what you notice.

[Thad]

It's not balanced exactly. It's equal, like Earth's paying equal, but they're not making the same amount of money.

[Ramit Sethi]

You make a lot more at that. And you are paying 50%.

[Thad]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

Which is great for you, but very onerous and difficult for Christine.

[Thad]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you all talked about it. What was your conclusion?

[Thad]

Well, we did. We just kind of noticed, as I say, since that disparity is kind of new with this, this year. The. Now that we are aware of that and it had been lopsided before the other way.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think you guys make decisions when you talk about money.

[Thad]

We talk. We don't.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, you don't. You're not even making them right now. When you're faced with poverty in old age, you're still not me you're just talking around it. The question is, what do you notice about how your expenses are related to how much your income is? Which dad answered, I appreciate it. And then he said, well, we had a conversation about this. We've been talking about this. Okay. What did you decide?

[Christine]

Nothing. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Couples who are successful with money make decisions and they make them fast. Couples who are unsuccessful with money talk about it over and over and over again, and they never make decisions. Which one are you?

[Christine]

Well, clearly we're the latter, but, like, I don't feel like I have the power to drive this decision because I'm the one that makes the least amount of money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, the person who makes less money has less power. Who said that? Or is that just a story?

[Christine]

That's what Thad said because he used to make less than me and he refused to do a percentage split out of expenses. So now that we have disparate incomes, the other direction. I surely can't ask for percentage breakouts.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why not? Why can't you?

[Christine]

Because he refused to do it. So now, like, it doesn't feel fair.

[Ramit Sethi]

He. Let me make sure I understand this. Dad refused to do percentage based breakouts when he was making less.

[Christine]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Even though that would have been advantageous to him.

[Christine]

Mm.

[Ramit Sethi]

And you have said, surely I cannot bring up proportional payments. Why?

[Christine]

I said, hey, I notice that I make a lot less money than you and I'm still paying half of the everything. And? And he said, oh, yeah, I noticed that too.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's not bringing it up. What is that? Hey, everybody, I noticed the sky is blue today.

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That doesn't mean that I feel like eating soup. That has nothing to do with it.

[Narrator/Host]

When you bring it up.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you want? Christine, I can tell that you often have trouble asking specifically for what you want. Right?

[Christine]

I. I didn't think so, but I guess that might be true.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you want?

[Narrator/Host]

When you bring that up, why are.

[Ramit Sethi]

You bringing it up?

[Christine]

Well, because I noticed it was a reason that my credit cards can't get paid down faster because I don't have. It doesn't feel like I have the excess money every month, every pay even.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's correct. You're right. Your instinct is exactly right. This is not fair. You're not even married.

[Christine]

I know, but that's more the reason we should be half and half. We're not married. We have to, like, shoulder the burdens of each of, like, our own stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

There is an argument to be made for the fact that you are not married. So there are certain differences that you might have. Whereas when you are married, at least in my opinion, you should complain. Combine as much as possible. Right, but can I just say, Christine, it is not fair or feasible to have one person with 78 fixed costs and the other person with 50%. But you still haven't asked Thad for what you want.

[Christine]

Well, but I can't ask him for what I want. It's not my money.

[Ramit Sethi]

When I married my wife, my lifestyle was much more expensive than her. Okay. Had a bigger apartment, spent more on food and that kind of thing. Right. If I had 50, 50 with her, it would have financially drowned her. It wouldn't have been fair to her that. I hope you're listening very carefully because you are me in this situation.

[Thad]

Yeah, but I don't think it's a fair.

[Ramit Sethi]

I did not wait for her to cry.

[Christine]

Well, we're not married.

[Ramit Sethi]

The marriage part is irrelevant to this.

[Christine]

I don't think it is.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, tell me you believe, Christine, that because you're not married you should have to pay 50. 50?

[Christine]

Yes. That's what we've agreed to. So, like, I don't see how he changed that. Because, like, I can't say, well, it's not my money, but give it to me so I can pay my bills.

[Ramit Sethi]

Paying proportionally does not mean that he gives you money. That's not how it works, Christine. What I notice again is I'm trying to really. I'm actually trying to help you, Christine, financially. And you are pushing back inexplicably. I don't think you even know why you're pushing back. I'm trying to help you right now.

[Christine]

I know you are, and I appreciate that, but it's not my money to ask for, so I'm not going to.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're not asking for anybody to give you money that is not going to.

[Narrator/Host]

Write you a check.

[Christine]

Well, then he would put more into the household account so that we would have more money to pay our bills.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes. And you would put less because you earn less. Like, I pay a lot more taxes than you. I make a lot more. So I can afford to do that. Do you see that? I do. What do you think about that?

[Christine]

I don't know what I think, because. And when the situation was reversed, he said no. And so it doesn't feel like now that the situation is the way it is, now that I can ask.

[Thad]

I never flatly refused to say that wasn't going to do that. We brought this up. I didn't say I wasn't. The portion of that I wasn't even asked. I just don't like being characterized as, like, unresponsive, refusing to do it. You know, like, not sharing the money. Like, every dollar I have goes to this household except for the money that I wasted and I fessed up to that. I'm willing to do it now. Yeah, but, I mean, I'm not the bad guy here.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine, what do you take from that?

[Christine]

I guess he's willing to split it proportionately. But I. In fairness, honey, I never said that you wouldn't. I just didn't ask. Because you didn't do it when the situation was reversed, right?

[Thad]

Yeah, no, that's. Yeah. I'm not refusing to do anything. Like, I am 100 supportive of you as much as I can with everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you realize that Thad is offering to do this and you're refusing to take the help, which would.

[Christine]

I didn't refuse to take the help. I said it sounds like he'll do it, so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christine, I understand that, but, Christine, I want you to understand your own behavior right now. There have been several occasions where Thad has not pushed back. He's like, take the NFL. I don't care. You refused at first, right? You. You are being drowned financially. It's not fair. And you never asked for it because of a story you created in your head. Now he hears it, he goes, yeah, fine. Are you willing to take the help?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Narrator/Host]

Love it. Great.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is what making decisions is about. This is hard. But this is also what I meant.

[Narrator/Host]

By we have to walk through the fire.

[Ramit Sethi]

We have to do this stuff. There's no other way around it. Look at what happens when I change the numbers in the CSP. Christine's going to pay 40%. That is going to pay 60%, and you're going to see these numbers dramatically change. Take a look. Let's see here. 1290 for your portion of the rent. That's down from 1600 bucks.

[Christine]

Right.

[Ramit Sethi]

What does that mean to you, Christine?

[Christine]

That I might have more money to pay my credit cards?

[Ramit Sethi]

Exactly. You're going to have more money. That's proportionality. Look at these numbers. Starting to adjust already in your fixed cost. Each of your individual costs are becoming a lot more rational. Credit, Christine, is your. Your fixed costs, which used to be what, 78?

[Christine]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

They're down to 64. What does that mean for you?

[Christine]

I think it just feels better, like there's more money available. I was feeling really pinched.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Because the lifestyle the two of you have is unsustainable. Dad, I want to check in with you. You this means you're going to be paying a lot more.

[Thad]

I mean, as long as I have money to pay for my daughter's stuff and I need, you know, give me 40 bucks a paycheck so I can have fun, that's all I'm gonna do. I don't need any money for anything else. I don't do anything else. I don't have any other activities that I do that cost money.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's awesome. I'll take the win and I think we can make proportionality work. What I actually want to hear and what I think Christine wants to hear is a deeper level of engagement. So this idea of like, whatever, as long as, like, I have a bill, that's actually not the level that I need you to be operating at with your. Your money. You actually need to understand, oh, my God, this now means I'm going to be paying x $100 extra a month towards fixed costs, which means I'm not going to be able to have this much for fi. For guilt free spending, etc. That is the level of fluency that you need to have with your money at age 57 with almost nothing in retirement.

[Thad]

That's what I just did though, right? Is that what you said?

[Ramit Sethi]

No, that's not what you did. Okay, I did promise to talk about what would happen if things don't change, because this is a lot of changes. Like, a lot of things have to go right in order for this to work, right? So what if it doesn't?

[Christine]

I mean, clearly, I think we'd have to. I mean, we already probably do have to move somewhere that's less expensive, a lot less expense.

[Ramit Sethi]

Dad, what if you get laid off.

[Thad]

And. No, come on. I'll get another job as a teacher.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, let's say that you can't get another job that pays what you're making. You only get, you know, 2/3 of what you're making.

[Thad]

You know, I. Cause you try to survive. I mean, like, I mean, worst case scenario is homeless shelter, right? I mean, that's probably the worst case scenario.

[Ramit Sethi]

Have you been in a homeless shelter before? I have. Okay. You never talked about worst case, did you?

[Thad]

No, we talked about moving back and breaking it and like, you have to.

[Ramit Sethi]

Move back to Cleveland.

[Thad]

Pittsburgh.

[Christine]

Yeah. I mean, we have discussed it just like kind of in passing, but you know, of course you hope it doesn't come to fruition, but sure. I think I. That's just kind of what would happen. I would have to move back home with my dad and my brother. I mean, I've already Been laid off a number of times and have consistently gotten jobs with lower pay. So, I mean, we've made it, but it was tough.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about if we end this call and things look good for a week, you make some changes and then fad. You stop following up, things kind of go back. Christine is chasing after you, you're avoiding. What would you do then?

[Christine]

I don't know what I would do. I think I would just keep pressing forward with doing what I could with my own finances, trying to increase my retirement account, try and find some extra money for savings. You know, just do the best I could.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thad, what would you do if you weren't making progress on the things we talked about? Christine felt like she was trying to control you by asking every day, what would you do if.

[Thad]

If we weren't gonna make it, if we weren't making it together, if we decided that we weren't going to be able to shift, move forward with this shared dream? You know, we've talked about, like, breaking up.

[Ramit Sethi]

You two are not married. You have different financial situations, although both are extremely concerning. And if I am, each of you, I am saying, look, this is what I need in this relationship, financially speaking, in order to be comfortable, in order to be comfortable to stay, in order to be comfortable to be married. And it's cut and dry. It's decisive. If both of you really dedicated yourself to earning more. And I think it's extremely possible, not only could you save money, not only could you invest for retirement, I think you could make a pretty serious dent in your debt, but it would require extreme focus, and it would require doing it as a team. So that becomes the overriding goal. Less about work, life, balance, just being very honest. And every additional dollar that you make, you would have a plan for how much goes into it, in part because I don't want you to end up in poverty in your old age. If you can do all of those things and you can both do it together, I think you have a pretty good shot.

[Christine]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I feel nervous, really nervous, because I know that you have a lot of changes to make, and I know what your future could hold. And trust me, I want the absolute best for you. My dream for you is that the two of you actually do this as a team that you both see, oh, my God, we have a lot of changes to make with our money. We are going to do this as a mission. We're going to get our daughter involved. We are going to talk about this, and this is actually going to become something that is fun, like yes, it's going to be hard. Yeah, we have no cable anymore. That sucks. But we are doing this as a family unit and I am not sure if you two want that.

[Christine]

Yeah, I mean, I do want that. Of course. I, I want to have financial stability. That's been my goal the whole time. And I just am not sure. Just not sure we're going to get there.

[Thad]

I feel nervous about being able to remain committed to the things I've talked about tonight. I struggle with being honest and If I'm not 100% in, then no matter, it's not going to work. I mean, and I kind of know.

[Christine]

That it's really hard.

[Thad]

I have to come to that conclusion. I have to change that mentality. You know, do I want to walk this journey with my partner and end up in old age where we can live together and, you know, and if it's going to work, then I'm willing to sort of put that in. It's going to be hard though, but you know, I'm willing to put that effort in.

[Narrator/Host]

We're going to get to their follow ups in just a second. But first I'd like to share a couple of thoughts. Here's what I suspect will happen. I think Christine and Thad will be motivated for a couple of weeks. I think they'll cut the NFL spending and they'll make some small, easy changes. But I suspect when it comes to the harder stuff like redirecting guilt free spending and consistently saving and investing, that's where most people find it much harder. It's easy to nibble at the edges. You can open up an account, transfer, 50 bucks, but the moment that something gets hard, a lot of people find it easy for the entire thing to derail. Now I hope I'm wrong. My real dream is that they follow up next week and next month and they surprise all of us. They make massive changes, they build huge momentum. They realize they can actually go faster and they get into this upward spiral with higher paying jobs and attacking their debt. It's possible. I've seen it happen and I would love if it happened here. Now let's take a look at their follow ups.

[Christine]

So it's been three weeks since we talked to Ramit and I just wanted to check in and let you know how Thad and I are doing. I would say that one of the biggest changes I've seen is that Thad is more engaged with our finances and is taking on a lot of responsibility for improving his own financial situation, which has gone a long way. I think toward relieving some of the stress from me, and also for making it seem like we're more equal partners in the finance conversation rather than me leading the way a hundred percent of the time. So we've been able to increase our emergency savings account by diverting money from canceled subscriptions and adding 90% of any extra money we earn from jobs or bonuses or things like that to the account on. Also, we have agreed to restart our money talks soon, so I think probably next weekend we'll have our first conversation in the new post Ramit World. So I'm looking forward to that and continuing our work through this financial journey together. So thank you Ramit. I appreciate all your help and it's looking up for us. So yay.

[Thad]

My biggest takeaway from our interview with Ramit is just how critical my retirement situation is in regards to the lack of money that I've saved for that. I think the Ramit termed it as a crisis situation and I'm inclined to believe him. I have changed that mentality and I realized that I have to go with intentionality moving forward. Saving for retirement, Saving for the future. Some of the action steps that we've taken since then I've taken taken since then is that I have upped my retirement funds in for a paycheck, I have created a savings fund for taxes and for house emergencies and I've increased the amount of savings I'm putting to our house. I also investigating my situation, I was able to find a retirement fund from a previous job, my previous job of $45,000. So that added to what I currently we have. So that's been a benefit. We've cut about $80 in subscriptions, about five subscriptions and that's been a proactive move and to this date we have not yet subscribed to the NFL package. And then just going forward, Chrissy and I are having conversations that are positive. It's been a great experience and I want to continue.

[Narrator/Host]

You know travel is one of my top money dials or the area of life that I love to spend money on.

[Ramit Sethi]

Over the last few years, some very.

[Narrator/Host]

Memorable trips we've taken Italy, we took a design tour in Japan, safari in Kenya and Tanzania. If travel is one of your money dials too, I want to tell you.

[Ramit Sethi]

About a podcast that I love. It's called all the Hacks and it.

[Narrator/Host]

Teaches you the hacks, tips and tactics you need to upgrade your life, money and travel, all while spending less and saving more. All the Hacks is an award winning podcast trusted by more than a million listeners that turns big ideas into to quick tactical moves you can start using today.

[Ramit Sethi]

The host is my friend Chris Hutchins.

[Narrator/Host]

A financial optimizer who has sold two companies and racked up millions of rewards points. I call him sometimes when I have a really tricky question about travel or points, he knows the answer. A great place to start is with the episode where Chris shares his top 50 ways to upgrade your life, money and travel. I actually joined Chris recently on the show to share how to actually spend your money in a way that creates joy whether you're earning 40k or 400k.

[Ramit Sethi]

We talked about the four numbers you.

[Narrator/Host]

Need to know, why lifestyle creep is a myth and how to find your worry free number, including how to start living your rich life. Now you can check it out. It's episode 237, how to design a rich life at any Income on Chris's podcast. Every episode delivers at least one tactic you can plug right into your own life. Could be a money hack that increases your net worth or routine that boosts your productivity. Search for all the hacks. That's all the hacks in your podcast app, hit follow and start upgrading your life today.