233. “I save while she spends on vacations. Is this fair?”

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi
Episode 233: “I save while she spends on vacations. Is this fair?”
Date: November 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ramit Sethi and a financial coach dive deep into the complex money dynamics between Samantha and Kevin, a couple earning a combined $369,000 yet feeling disconnected, guilty, and resentful over their financial roles, spending, and saving. Ramit guides them through the challenging emotions, long-held habits, and avoidance behaviors that keep them financially separate and emotionally frustrated—despite being together for seven years.

The discussion exposes how their high income masks deeper psychological and communicative rifts and walks them toward building a shared vision. Ramit’s signature approach focuses on the specifics—turning vague goals into actionable plans—and uses the couple’s Conscious Spending Plan (CSP) to illuminate uncomfortable truths about money, values, and teamwork.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Couples’ Background and Financial Snapshot

• Seven years together, finances kept separate: Kevin owns the house, has major investments, and is debt-free. Samantha is burdened with over $78,000 in student loans, has minimal savings/investments, and feels less-than in their financial partnership.
• Total Net Worth: $1.17M.
• Income: $221k (Kevin), $148k (Samantha).
• Major spending areas: Vacations, pets, and daily living.
• Financial dynamic: “You have $4,000 a month to do whatever you want with. The other has $1,100 a month. Seems like it could be a problem.” (Financial Coach, 01:40, 87:25)

2. Avoidance and Lack of Communication

• Both admit to being conflict-avoidant, rarely discussing money beyond superficial “comments at money rather than conversation about money” (Samantha, 07:11).
• Money is the main topic they avoid, leading to mutual resentment: “They’re not direct communicators. In fact, they avoid hard conversations altogether.” (Ramit, 60:27)
• Their avoidance is enabled by their high income—letting problems fester without immediate consequences.

3. Money Imbalances and Resentment

• Mortgage Issue: Kevin pays the mortgage; Samantha pays utilities/groceries.
  • “It’s a stalemate. I don’t think that is something you ask a partner to do if they don’t have an ownership stake in the house and we’ve just done nothing about it.” (Samantha, 15:41)
  • Kevin is frustrated by Samantha not contributing to the mortgage as expected but avoids pushing the topic due to discomfort.
• Vacation Spending:
  • Samantha feels compelled to match Kevin’s vacation spending, fearing being a “damper,” but also recognizes it’s more important to have the experience than to have money (“Self-defeating,” as the coach calls out, 12:39).
  • Kevin believes Samantha should be using her “saved” mortgage money to pay off debt, not for increased lifestyle spending.

4. Impact of Upbringing and Money Scripts

• Samantha’s childhood involved secrecy, financial struggles, and “if you want it, buy it now” mentality—habits she carries today, admitting she’s only just started to change.
  • “It used to feel like money was literally burning a hole in my pocket... That is not a feeling I have anymore, but it is reflected in how little is in my retirement account.” (Samantha, 47:30)
• Kevin grew up around business and regular money conversations, but expresses little affect and avoids conflict, making it difficult for Samantha to read his emotions or get financial affirmation.

5. Facing the Numbers and Building a Plan

• On reviewing their CSP, both are shocked at where the money goes. Their “guilt-free spending” categories are much higher than recommended.
  • “It doesn’t feel like we spend $7,756/month, but if you add up the vacations, pet costs, and eating out, it’s all there.” (Financial Coach, 32:00)
• Samantha realizes large spending on experiences/pets leaves her savings and investments low.
• With Ramit’s guidance, Samantha is coached to set an aggressive debt repayment plan ($1,500/mo over 5 years), cut back on pet costs, and still keep meaningful but manageable guilt-free spending.

6. Addressing Proportional Fairness and Gendered Expectations

• The couple assumes a 50/50 split on discretionary expenses, but Ramit encourages recalibrating to proportional contributions, especially since Samantha doesn’t pay the mortgage:
  • “Normally proportional would probably be more fair, but I think it’s right for me to pay a little bit more because I don’t pay for the mortgage.” (Financial Coach, 84:31)
• Ramit calls out “invisible expectations” tied to debt, gender, and unspoken assumptions.

7. Emotional Communication Breakthroughs

• Samantha expresses her fear that she’ll “never be financially good enough for Kevin” or “truly an equal partner.”
• Ramit models more emotionally attuned responses for both, emphasizing the need for acknowledgment and validation over trying to “fix” feelings.
  • “It would make me feel a lot more heard…The idea of, ‘We don’t have all the answers, but we’ll work together’ is exactly what I need.” (Samantha, 55:14)
• Both couples are encouraged to explicitly acknowledge progress and effort: “If you do something good, let them know. They love it!” (Financial Coach, 94:17)

8. Closing Unhelpful “Open Doors” and Choosing a Vision

• Ramit highlights they keep their options (marriage, relocation, finances) open as a defense against difficult choices:
  • “Right now it’s like you all have kept so many doors open you’re not even tiptoeing into one.” (Financial Coach, 72:11)
• He guides them through hypothetical scenario-planning, encouraging them to “dream in specifics”—whether that’s marriage, moving, or combining finances, and to commit to one future to move forward.

9. Action Steps and Follow Up

• Samantha:
  • Cuts lifestyle spending (streaming, housekeeping, pet food topper—now makes it herself).
  • Begins proactive savings and investment BEFORE spending.
  • Initiates first “money meeting” with Kevin, using an agenda to track progress.
• Both: Attend ‘Ultra Speaking’ communication training to boost confidence in money talks and difficult subjects.
  • “Not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Just having a good answer is enough.” (Kevin, 101:38)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Building Specificity

• “People say, ‘I want to travel more.’ Okay, get more specific. Are we talking about a month to Europe, or Disneyland for three days?”
  — Ramit Sethi (00:00)

Avoidance and Emotional Disconnection

• “I tend to be a very, like, conflict-avoidant person. Anytime that it starts to be a conflict, I’m just like, all right, I’m done with this.”
  — Kevin (02:04)
• “At least seven times a week, I’m like, ‘Are you mad at me?’ And he’s like, ‘No, I’m fine.’ Happy seems the same as angry.”
  — Samantha (02:10)

Feeling Behind and Not “Good Enough”

• “I feel I’ll never be financially good enough for Kevin... Even if I saved a million dollars, that wouldn’t be good enough.”
  — Samantha (04:04 & 04:40)

Vicious Cycle of Lifestyle Inflation

• “Kevin’s lifestyle has pulled you up to a level that is unsustainable for you if you were solo.”
  — Financial Coach (23:14)
• “The money simply doesn’t exist at the end of the month, and it doesn’t feel like the best use of the money to pay him rent.”
  — Samantha, re: mortgage fairness (17:49)

Accountability and Planning

• “Somebody who makes $150,000 doesn’t talk like that.”
  — Financial Coach, on minimum debt payments (77:40)
• “You have over $2,000 allocated for guilt-free spending. What this tells me is that so much of your spending is mindless. It’s just random.”
  — Financial Coach (82:44)

Communicating Fears & Building Teamwork

• “I fear that the standard I will be able to maintain in retirement will not live up to your expectations, and that will cause the relationship to end.”
  — Samantha (52:08)
• “You don’t have to have the perfect answer, but bringing it up and working through it together—that’s a team.”
  — Financial Coach (54:37–55:25)

Self-Acknowledgment

• “My earnings increased faster than my money psychology did.”
  — Samantha (78:08)
• “If you do something good, let them know. They love it!”
  — Financial Coach (94:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening / Money philosophy: 00:00–01:23
• Samantha and Kevin’s dynamic introduced: 01:23–04:04
• Feelings of inadequacy and avoidance: 04:04–07:15
• How money is (not) discussed: 07:15–09:57
• Vacation spending conflict: 10:16–12:39
• Breakdown of household expenses and mortgage: 13:44–17:49
• Visions for the future (magic wand): 25:46–27:53
• Assets, spending, and “where’s all the money?”: 27:34–33:00
• Childhood influences: 44:28–48:07 (Samantha), 48:07–50:09 (Kevin)
• Expressing fears and practicing new communication: 51:29–59:37
• Debt strategy and tradeoffs: 63:42–83:47
• Planning for vacations and fairness: 87:25–90:36
• Handling inequality and partnership: 91:15–94:37
• Emotional validation and teamwork in money: 94:37–97:19
• Final thoughts, outcomes, and follow-ups: 99:53–102:37

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Takeaways and Next Steps

• Communication is the linchpin: Money issues in relationships are rarely about the numbers themselves, but about feelings, trust, fairness, and unspoken needs.
• Facing specifics breaks paralysis: Defining exactly what you want to spend on, save for, or plan for is empowering and clarifies tradeoffs.
• Emotional validation matters: Recognizing and voicing each partner’s fears, insecurities, and achievements is essential in creating an equal, respectful financial team.
• Practical joint actions:
  • Proportionally split expenses (especially discretionary spending like vacations).
  • Regular money conversations (“money meetings”), using simple agendas.
  • Aggressively pay down high-interest debt while continuing to invest and save for emergencies.
  • Celebrate financial progress and effort.
• Mindset shift: Reframe self-perception (“I’m never financially good enough”) to focus on progress, not comparison.

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Closing Quote

“You have reached, under any circumstance, financially speaking, a very impressive place. What’s missing is the teamwork.”
– Financial Coach (96:03)

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This episode offers a raw, relatable blueprint for any couple grappling with financial incompatibility, avoidance, or the fear that they “aren’t enough.” The solution is not in the numbers, but in honesty, emotional courage, and building a financial life as a team—one specific, direct conversation at a time.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

When I help people think about their rich lives, the main thing I often say is get more specific. People say, I want to travel more. Okay, this is your rich life. Get more specific. Are we talking about a month long honeymoon to Europe? Are we going to Disneyland for three days? Are we going on a trip to Bhutan? Get more specific. When you're on vacation, who are you bringing? Where are you staying? Are you eating anything in particular? These are all examples of things that that my students in my money coaching program have done as part of their rich lives. I want to share the specifics of how other people are spending their money in amazing ways and saving and investing so that you can finally get unstuck. In the program, you get access to a monthly money call where I dive into specific different topics like how to build your rich life, how to break down conscious spending plans, and then I answer your questions live. You also get access to the entire library of past calls, including how to spend money to create magical travel experiences, how to buy back your time, and how to find an extra thousand dollars per month. We have tons of virtual events coming up every month in Money Coaching and you can join right [e-mail] money coaching. That's iwt.com moneycoaching to instantly become a member.

[Samantha]

Right now, I just don't feel like a good or worthy partner.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

[Samantha]

I don't really want to stop going on vacations.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's an honest answer.

[Samantha]

It feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want with. The other has $1,100 a month. Seems like it could be a problem.

[Kevin]

I don't mind paying more for or some of the vacations if that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt. And more is going towards pigeons than student loans.

[Samantha]

Well, when you phrase it like that.

[Kevin]

I tend to be a very like, conflict avoidant person. Anytime that it starts to be a conflict, I'm just like, all right, I'm done with this.

[Samantha]

At least seven times a week, I'm like, are you mad at me? And he's like, no, I'm fine. Happy seems the same as angry. So that is is the challenge.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Today I'm talking to Kevin and Samantha.

[Ramit Sethi]

A couple that's lived together for seven years. They earn a high income and they have kept their finances entirely separate. Okay, sounds Fine on paper. But underneath the numbers, there is a lot at play. Kevin owns their home. He has zero student loans and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested. Samantha is carrying $78,000 of student loans. She has barely any savings and almost no investments. When there's a major financial gap between partners, it can cause tension and shame, which is exactly what's happening here. Let's take a look at their numbers. I'm about to open up their conscious spending plan, which is the same tool I use with every couple to see how much they make, spend, save, and invest. Here's what I see. Assets, $652,000. Investments, 883,000. Savings, 23,000 and debt, 389,000. Their net worth is $1.17 million. Fixed costs, 43%. Investments, 12%. Savings, 1% and guilt free spending, 44%. All right, the spending looks fine on the surface, but again, when we go beneath the numbers, this, they are disconnected and resentful. Now, we have a lot more to reveal in this episode. You are going to see a lot that you do not expect. But first, tell me in the comments, have you ever been in a relationship where one person had way more money than the other? How did you handle it? Did you separate your finances? Did you combine them? Did you set up rules? I want to hear your experience in the comments below. And now listen in as we meet Samantha and Kevin.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, I read your application and something stood out to me right at the top. You said, I feel I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin. What does good enough mean?

[Samantha]

That financially he views me as a equal partner and as somebody he trusts to make money decisions and eventually combine finances one day.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And Kevin, would you agree with that characterization?

[Kevin]

I mean, I don't know that I really knew that. She's never said that to me before. Hold on.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That was at the top of the application. Samantha, you never said that to Kevin before.

[Samantha]

I guess not in those words. I once said, I feel like even if I saved a million dollars, that wouldn't be good enough for you. And he was like, well, if it was a million dollars, which is supposed to be funny, but to me, I'm like, oh, man, is that the line? Million dollars. I will never hit that.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, what happened next?

[Samantha]

We kind of just dropped it because I got me in a little bit of a mental doom spiral that, like, I could be perfect, fiscally, do all the right things from there on out, and I'm not going to catch up unless I win the lottery.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And what does that imply if you have less money than Kevin, then.

[Samantha]

Then I am not contributing equally to our partnership. He's carrying the burden.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Is that bad?

[Samantha]

Yes. Well, I don't know. Another comment was made at one point that, like, he didn't want to carry the burden of us fiscally in retirement. And I agree. But it also kind of freaked me out because I won't have the same amount of money he will have. And so I can't tell if what he's looking for is, like, a concerted effort or if he's looking for, like, an actual fiscal dollar amount.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You ever talk about this?

[Samantha]

Not really. Our money is mostly separate. A couple of occasions we tried, but, like, I was extremely embarrassed about my situation, and I kind of brushed it off.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, which of you is avoidant? By a show of hands, both hands went up. Okay, that's pretty interesting. So you're both avoidant. You both know it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you both know that about each other?

[Samantha]

I know that about him. I would say that this area is an area I am avoidant in, and I'm not avoidant in a lot of other areas.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Got it. And, Kevin, are you avoidant in everything or just money?

[Kevin]

Most things I would say.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right. How long have you two been together?

[Kevin]

Seven years.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Is the ultimate goal to get married?

[Samantha]

I would like to be married. It's not a deal breaker for me at this point, but I feel as though money is a huge obstacle for that. I feel like I have to clean.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Up a lot before that.

[Samantha]

Something he would consider. That's not something he'd said to me. That's just something I have said to myself.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, okay. So, Kevin, do you agree or disagree? I think I would agree.

[Kevin]

I. I've been married before, and I am not super excited about getting married again. So I don't think it's like a. Oh, if you get your money figured out, we're going to get married, it would put me in more of a place where I might want to.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, so you've been together seven years. You haven't talked about money that much. How often do you talk about money?

[Samantha]

I would say we comment at money rather than conversate about money.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Like, is that like, snipe?

[Samantha]

It could be a snipe, or it could be just a genuine, wow, the groceries were expensive. And then the other person would say, yep.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What are some other comments that you say to each other about money?

[Kevin]

If we're talking about going on a trip or something like that, I guess we don't really say, like, can you afford that? But more of a like, oh, that's going to be kind of expensive. But then there's no, like, discussion past that. It's more of just like a. Yep, it is.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, what's next?

[Samantha]

Samantha, you spent too much money at the bird vet.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I like this type of conversation. I don't think I've really heard it that much. It's just like one sentence end. It's kind of like when I talk to young kids, they go, your shirt is weird. End of the story. No more comments at all.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is done.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's it. They said what they have to say. I respect that. I think part of it is because.

[Kevin]

Our finances are very separate. Other than just like we have a credit card that shared expenses are on that it's sort of just like, all right, well, you. Do you, you know, kind of a thing.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Do you know about each other's financial situation now?

[Samantha]

We do. We knew, I think, what a rough idea of what the other person made.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Rough? Like how rough?

[Samantha]

I knew how much he made when he started his job because he told me that he had to negotiate it. And then he would tell me that he got X percent raises. And so I could kind of infer from that what he made.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What the hell's going on right now? You're living together. You're together for seven years. You're not even talking about how much each other makes. What's happening here?

[Kevin]

I mean, I knew like an estimate of how much Samantha made, but I, I would ask and it was kind of just like, oh, I don't know. It's hard to know because it's sales and it could be different.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Do you guys talk about substantively about other things besides money?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What would be an example?

[Samantha]

Politics, books, family, animals.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Animals, okay. Like, you really talk about them, you grapple, you know each other's views, you probe that kind of thing.

[Samantha]

Correct.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why not?

[Samantha]

With money, it's embarrassing for me and I've never really had the skills to do it. I've never had the conversations in other relationships either.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

When you think of money, what words come to mind for you?

[Samantha]

Anxiety, but also potential.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You feel nervous right now.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I can understand that. If you haven't been comfortable enough to even bring it up in your own long term relationship to be here talking about money with me, with us, with a camera, I can understand that. That can feel very overwhelming. So I appreciate it. We'll take our time in our conversation today. Okay. Kevin, you ever ask her about her anxiety around money?

[Kevin]

Further back in our relationship, I Tried to bring it up a little bit more, and I. It just seemed like she wasn't interested in talking about it. I was just kind of like, all right, well, she doesn't want to talk about it, so I don't. I'm not going to push it. All right.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can the two of you think of a time in the last three, six months where you were not on the same page about money?

[Samantha]

Like a week and a half ago, we were on vacation, and we're in the hot tub, glass of wine, looking out at the ocean. It's very lovely. And he asked me if I wanted to go to this place called Leavenworth, where we have gone every year around Christmas for the past five years. And I expressed that I don't think it's a good idea for me. I want to save money for vacations moving forward, and I have not been doing that.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. And Kevin, what did you say? Let's just role play it.

[Kevin]

I mean, we've gone every year before, and it hasn't been a problem for us for our money, so I don't see why we can't go. Not even acknowledging the, like, need to save or that she's uncomfortable.

[Samantha]

It was clear to me he was disappointed at this point, so I said, we can take a look at it because I don't want my financial situation to put a damper on what he can do in his life.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And was that the end of it?

[Samantha]

The end of it was we can look at it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Have you.

[Samantha]

We have not.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's just do it right now. I don't know the price, but I'll make it up 400 bucks a night. You're going to go for four nights. That's 1600, plus taxes, plus blah, blah, blah. That's 2200. Here it is. Here's the thing I found. I'm Kevin. Here you go, Samantha.

[Samantha]

I mean, if the expectation is that we split it 50, 50, I. I don't think that that will be happening for me this year.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Oh. But I just spent so much time looking at all these Airbnbs. We did it the year before, so what's the problem? We should be able to do it again.

[Samantha]

Well, the problem is that the trip is going to cost $2200. If we could find a trip for 1500, I might be able to save that much money by December.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Ah, why don't you just tell them that out of curiosity?

[Samantha]

That's a great question. I need to, like, look and see what is reasonably possible for me to save before December, before I present that number to him.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Do you struggle to advocate for yourself in this area?

[Samantha]

Yes, because I don't want to say no. I don't want to turn down experiences that I know he wants to do because it would put a strain on me financially. Like it feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money, as silly as that sounds.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can you just say that again? I want you to hear yourself.

[Samantha]

It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How's that strike you when you hear it self defeating?

[Samantha]

It doesn't help me. It doesn't help us in the long run to say yes to everything.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's pretty rare to meet two avoiders. Their annual income is a combined $369,000. And that is what is basically covering up these dynamics. That high income allows them to maintain separate finances and avoid uncomfortable conversations and really delay any true planning. Most couples could not operate like this without immediate consequences, especially if they were earning less than 100k combined. The pain of that avoidance would simply be way too big. But even with this really high income, that problem is coming to the surface. They're disconnected on their goals, they don't know each other's numbers, and they don't even really know what true financial partnership looks like. Remember, they've been together for seven years. And what I learned next genuinely surprised me. Here's what Samantha said when I asked how they handled their biggest household expenses.

[Samantha]

Kevin pays the mortgage and we split the utilities, groceries, et cetera. 50.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

50, okay. How did you agree on that?

[Samantha]

We didn't. At the time I moved in, I was unemployed. He did want me to pay him some rent at some point and I did a couple of times, but I have not been. Sometimes the money just doesn't exist at the end of the month. But also, you know, this is his house. If he sells it, it's all his money. I feel like he is not my landlord, he's my partner. And doesn't it make more sense for the money to be saved or invested like long term? That seems like a more advantageous step to take than just giving him X number of dollars cash to probably just save himself.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And did you discuss this with him?

[Samantha]

I believe I have made a comment to that effect, but it was not a real discussion.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right. But Samantha, how do you feel about not paying the mortgage but splitting the utilities, groceries, etc. It sounds like you are comfortable with it and it is what, how you would set things up if you had a magic wand?

[Samantha]

Yes, I Am comfortable with that arrangement.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool. Kevin, what's your take?

[Kevin]

I mean, I think I was a little frustrated with that conversation. I think because before Samantha moved in, she had made a comment about, oh, you know, if. If I were to move in, I could help you pay your mortgage. But then once she moved in, it was like, no, because it's like, you're the one that's going to benefit from it. So I don't think I should have to pay, which was a little frustrating to me.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What did you do when she said that?

[Kevin]

I think I very lightly voiced that I was frustrated, but then just stopped talking about it because I am extremely conflict avoidant and just didn't want to have the conversation.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I want to ask you the same question I asked Samantha. Do you struggle advocating for yourself?

[Kevin]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You said in your application that financial stress has caused frustration and stalemates. Can you give me an example of that?

[Samantha]

I think the mortgage one is a great example of a stalemate. I don't think that that is something you ask a partner to do if they don't have an ownership stake in the house and we have just done nothing about it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's flip the rules for a second. Let's say that you owned a house and then he moved in with you. How would you structure it?

[Samantha]

I think that a partner is different than a roommate. And I wouldn't expect a partner to pay me rent as long as they were paying. They're part of utilities and groceries.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. And the argument that you made, which was like, since he owns it, he would accrue any equity. I never hear renters make that argument to their landlord, like, I'm not going to pay you rent because you're the one who's accumulating equity. What do you think about that?

[Samantha]

I'm not trying to build, like, a financial future with my landlord.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Are you trying to build a financial future with Kevin?

[Samantha]

I am. And I. I feel as though the rent money would be better allocated in an investment or savings scenario, given how far behind I am.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What if you weren't far behind? What if you had no debt?

[Samantha]

That's a good question, Ramit. If I had no debt, I would probably have similar feelings, but also, like, would probably pay it just because I know that it would make him happy.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It doesn't seem very convincing to me. I don't mind that the two of you would talk about this. I think that's really healthy. And candidly, I think that couples can come up with whatever solution as long as they both think it's fair. The argument kind of falls apart when you're like, if I didn't have debt, I would probably pay it like, your debt is yours. I think if Kevin were in the same situation, the roles were reversed, I would be asking Kevin the same question. I actually think that a lot of us would be like, Kevin, are you like a deadbeat? And I don't think either of you are deadbeat. I I've seen your csp. I want to talk about it. Both you do very well. It's really impressive. But I'm just wondering how much of this is invisible expectations that has never really been talked about with each other. I'm wondering how much of this is because of the debt. How much of it is gender expectations? How much of this is just wrapped up in unexamined assumptions about money.

[Samantha]

I want to address the gender expectations first. I don't believe that he should be a provider. The money simply doesn't exist at the end of the month and it doesn't feel like the best use of the money to pay him rent.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, when it comes to growing your business, what got you here won't get you there. Like when I started, I will teach.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You to be rich.

[Ramit Sethi]

I lived in a college dorm and eventually I sold my first ebook for $4.95. And that same old simple system using PayPal would not work for IWT now. That's one of the reasons I recommend a platform like NetSuite. As your business grows, you want to give yourself the ability to scale using a tool actually designed to get you where you're going. NetSuite by Oracle is the number one AI cloud ERP used by over 43,000 businesses to simplify operations and make smarter decisions. It brings accounting, inventory, HR and financials into one system. No more jumping between tools or or patching together reports. Just one platform, one dashboard, one source of truth. And because it offers real time insights and forecasting, you get actionable data to work from, which helps you close your books in days, not weeks. NetSuite helps you cut through the noise and make better, faster decisions without the guesswork. If I'd had this system back when I was building my business from scratch, it would have been amazing. Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning for free at netsuite.com ramit that's netsuite.com ramit netsuite.com ramit show me your calendar and your spending and I.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Will show you your actual priorities.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like lots of people say they value family time.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, if we looked at your calendar.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

If you've got kids, especially if you.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, you said in your application that you feel you have, quote no say because Kevin owns the house. What do you mean by that?

[Samantha]

I would love to live somewhere that is not the city we live in. And Kevin has also made similar comments. But what I have realized over the years is that they're more of like daydream fantasies than actual urges to move. And if I want to stay in a relationship with Kevin, which I do, I have to stay in this city, in this house.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And can you tell me what you mean by his comments are more daydreams.

[Samantha]

We'll be in Seattle, for example, and he'll start looking at houses on Zillow. We'll get kind of into details of what we're looking for, but make no plans, no timeline for that to happen. And initially we first couple of years of dating when I would see him on Zillow, looking at these places which were also places I wanted to live, I would get kind of excited and think like, oh, maybe this is really going to happen. But I think he dislikes looking at houses on Zillow.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Kevin agree. Disagree.

[Kevin]

I mean, I do like looking at houses on Zillow, but also any place we moved would be a substantial increase in mortgage and we couldn't afford that. Because I just. I just assume most of that would be on me financially. It just doesn't make sense.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What percentage of your relationship around money do both of you think is based on assumptions rather than clear communication?

[Kevin]

A lot of assumptions.

[Samantha]

Like 80% I have started in the last couple of months. Try to be more straightforward, telling him what I'm doing, because I honestly, I want him to be proud of me and, like, see that I'm moving in the right direction.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Do either of you have visibility into the other's savings or investments?

[Samantha]

We do not.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Out of curiosity, if you were not living together, what would you be doing for housing?

[Samantha]

I would be traveling a whole lot less, and I would have a whole lot less pets, and I would not be going out to eat. My life would look a lot different.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, so what I'm hearing is Kevin's lifestyle has sort of pulled you up to a level that is unsustainable for you if you were solo, is that correct?

[Samantha]

Yes. I would have to make a lot of changes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Got it. Okay. Kevin, you want to comment at all?

[Kevin]

No. I mean, I think that makes sense. I suppose I didn't really think about, like, the trips and pulling her up into a spending area that she is not necessarily comfortable with, and I think I should think about more. I think part of my, like, frustration was that I was like, okay, I'm going to pay the mortgage. That's fine, if that'll help her pay off some loans or like, that sort of thing. But then that didn't really happen, which was, like, a little bit frustrating for me, because, like, I'm like, all right, well, if I pay the whole thing, like, I would have been paying it anyways, even if she wasn't living here. So it's not, like, a net negative to me. But, like, if you're not having to pay for housing, then that should mean that you can pay off your student loans and that sort of thing, or it should be much easier to do that. And since that hasn't really happened, that has been a little bit of a frustration for me. Okay, that's fair.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Do you ever bring it up? No.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right. How do you both feel about money in your relationship?

[Kevin]

I can't think of any other word than really avoidant.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha.

[Samantha]

I know as bad as I have made it all sound, I feel kind of optimistic because something in. In me has changed, and I feel like I've gotten more open in just, like, the past couple of months, and I feel like I've gotten myself on the right track. But I would like the money part of our relationship to be more cohesive and less isolated.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Great. I love that vision. Kevin, let me put this up on screen. This is the wheel of emotion. Might help you access some of the feelings. I. I myself have used this. I learned this in therapy.

[Kevin]

Oh, man. There are a lot of emotions, aren't there?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's what every man who looks at this graphic says. He's like, what? There's more emotions than anger. I do feel.

[Kevin]

Feel mostly enthusiastic or optimistic, I would say most of the time. But there is definitely some exasperation.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I will tell you, my facial reaction betrayed me. I was surprised when you said enthusiastic because I haven't heard you be enthusiastic about money once.

[Samantha]

This is his enthusiasm.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So your countenance is just more generally, like, relaxed.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Is that hard to read, Samantha?

[Samantha]

Absolutely. At least seven times a week I'm like, are you mad at me? And he's like, no, I'm fine. Happy seems the same as angry as all of the above. So that is a challenge.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

In a dream world where you could wave a magic wand, what would your relationship with money look like?

[Samantha]

Magic wand. My student loan debt and my car debt. Absolutely gone. And we are able to discuss money openly and have communal goals with our money and really discuss, like, how we want to use money as a tool for X, Y and Z. I want to be able to plan the year out with what we're going to do with our money.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And what about the house?

[Samantha]

Well, we wouldn't live in this house. Magic wand.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You live somewhere else.

[Samantha]

Yes, and I would have an ownership stake in it and I would be making payments toward it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool. Kevin, back to you.

[Kevin]

That all sounds great. I think that and being on a path to early retirement.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Early is how early?

[Kevin]

As soon as possible.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

But 50. 50. And you are 41.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Any surprises in what you both heard?

[Samantha]

We've talked about how he wants to retire early and how I probably will not be able to. And that is okay with me. I enjoy what I do. And I am perfectly happy with him, like, going on retired excursions and joining him when I can. Because the math is not mathing for me to retire at 50 in the.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Magic wand answer from both of you. I did not hear that you would like to be married.

[Samantha]

That's not as important to me as having a more teamwork view of our entire life.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Any hesitations? Anybody? Kevin?

[Samantha]

No.

[Kevin]

I mean, I know owning a house together is complex if you're not married, but.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah, it can be Done. We could talk about it. All right, let's look at the csp. Kevin, why don't you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please.

[Kevin]

Assets, 652,500. Investments, 883,300. Savings, 23,300. Debt, 389,000 for total net worth of 1,170,100.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, and just to clarify, how much is your debt, Samantha?

[Samantha]

So my student loan debt is a little bit under 78,000, and I owe approximately 30,000 on my car.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, what's. What's the rest of it? The house? Yeah. All right, and then, Samantha, can you read off the combined gross monthly income number, please?

[Samantha]

$30,803.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You make $369,000 a year. Did you know that?

[Samantha]

No. And when we were looking at that, it kind of blew our mind, both a good and a bad way.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Good meaning we make a ton of money. Bad meaning, like, where's it all going?

[Samantha]

Yes, exactly. Yes. It sounds like a lot, but it doesn't feel like a lot.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

$369,000 does not feel like a lot of money.

[Samantha]

I mean, not when you're living. Living it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, let's continue. Your fixed costs combined are 43%, which is very low. Now, I would expect them to be kind of low because you make a high salary. But what is interesting to me is that your fixed costs are quite similar. Kevin is the one making $18,000 a month gross. And then we have Samantha making $12,000 gross. What's interesting is look at those fixed costs, 46 and 39%. So. So they're kind of similar. However, Kevin is paying the mortgage, Samantha is not. So we have 3100 going towards the mortgage. Samantha is paying zero. But let's continue looking down here. So we have equal on utilities, Samantha's paying a little bit more on insurance. Samantha's paying quite a bit more on car payment debt payments at $180 a month. It's interesting to see that the way that the two of you talk about money is so different, but these numbers themselves are kind of similar. Now, I understand that there's a big one major difference here, which is the mortgage. What do you all make of that?

[Samantha]

I am surprised we spend a similar amount. I am surprised the percentages are low. They don't feel low.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I want to read off this pet category because it's unusual. We have Kevin paying $448 a month, and we have Samantha paying $588 a month for a total of $1036 per month. How many pets are we talking about?

[Samantha]

We have three dogs, two cats, five chickens, and eight pigeons.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You said eight pigeons?

[Samantha]

Yes, pigeons.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Did you grow up in a rural area with a lot of animals?

[Samantha]

I grew up in a small town. We still lived in a subdivision, but I have always been an animal lover, so always had a lot of pets growing up.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's continue down. Investments. So you both do 401k pre tax. We have 1900 bucks for Kevin, 1200 bucks for Samantha. On top of that, we have some investments. Kevin is investing aggressively. An extra 1400 post tax, and Samantha's doing 584. That's probably what a Roth IRA?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right, and then. And then another 108 bucks for something else. What is that?

[Samantha]

An employee stock purchase.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. Great. All right, so that's a total of 12%. Again, quite similar. 14 and 10%. Just off of different incomes. But okay, savings are at 1%. That's just a hundred bucks a month. And then finally, these numbers I found remarkable. Guilt free spending for Kevin is at 40% or $4,000 per month. And for Samantha at 51% or $3,672. What do y' all make of those numbers?

[Samantha]

It doesn't align with reality. I know I do not have $3,600 left over. I did look at our dining out bill, and it averages about $950 a month. Eating out. And I'm not totally sure where the rest of it is going.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Uh, really? Kevin, what do you think? He looks completely mystified.

[Kevin]

I don't know. I really don't know.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Guys, come on.

[Kevin]

I do. We spent like a decent amount on like going out and things like that, but like $8,000?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. $7,756 a month. You're telling me, like, there's no way that we doesn't feel like that.

[Samantha]

Right?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's crazy. But it's not really crazy if you add things up correctly. That is why the CSP is structured the way it is.

[Kevin]

So.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So let's talk about it. Samantha, you said something very interesting. You said there's no way we have that amount of money left over. Maybe, maybe the math is wrong. Or maybe when you took that vacation and when you eat out for dinner and all that stuff, maybe that's not properly tracked here on a monthly basis. How much do you spend on vacations per year? Ballpark.

[Samantha]

Like the most recent one, the hotel alone was about $2,500. I would guess we spent another thousand dollars eating out.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Round up to 4,000. It's probably more like 5,000 when you encount all everything. And how many vacations do you take per year?

[Samantha]

Ballpark, two to three.

[Kevin]

Two to three?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. Let's say three. I always round up. That's 15,000 minimum, which is like 1200 bucks a month. You starting to see how the numbers add up?

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

This is why you feel like, oh my God, this is so crazy.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where's all the money?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

But actually it's just not properly being counted and you're actually not getting the psychic benefit that you could if you were instead to say, we're going to take three vacations a year. We're going to put the money aside ahead of time. We're going to appreciate that we can go to this fancy dinner place that we both love.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's going to be awesome.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And then when you look at your.

[Ramit Sethi]

Csp, it looks like a video game where you're winning right now.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

This video game sucks. We have all these points at the top, but like, where's all the money? Well, the money happened seven months ago and you just didn't track it. And now your mind does not know how to amortize it correctly. That's human nature. How do you all feel about that?

[Samantha]

I feel very much like validated in my desire to save towards the vacations and talk about them at the beginning of the year and plan for them. Taking vacations on a whim is. It's fun and it's lovely, but it's not putting me in the best position fiscally.

[Ramit Sethi]

Samantha says things like, I feel like I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin. I don't think I'll ever catch up unless I win the lottery. It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money. All of this while earning $144,000 a year, which is a very good salary. This is exactly why I say how we feel about money is highly uncorrelated to what we have in the bank. Once someone feels behind, they often start to behave in destructive ways. They feel guilty when they are doing well by active measure.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It's like if your partner speaks a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Second language to their family and, and every time you hear them speaking to them, you feel bad because you don't speak the language. Nobody expects you to speak that language. You created that standard in your head and now you feel bad because you're not living up to a standard that you yourself made up. We do the same thing with money. We create an arbitrary standard and then we feel bad about it. You know, the truth is, a lot of people actually like feeling guilty about money. It gives them purpose, it reminds a lot of people how they were raised and. And that feels comfortable. After all, if you're not feeling guilty, who are you? Really? If you're listening to this and you realize you and your partner avoid these same kind of conversations, you don't need to wait years to fix it. Inside my money coaching program, you can learn how to talk about money. Clearly, you can connect over money and you can build a system that works for both of you. You can [e-mail] MoneyCoaching Let me guess. You're not sitting around waking up every Tuesday morning thinking about your tax strategy.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right, I get it. The holidays are coming, kids need help with homework.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

But then she got an email from whitepages and it said click this link to confirm data removal. She asked delete me what to do and they told her exactly how to respond word for word. And it worked.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Whitepages took her data down.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

In about a week they will send you back a full privacy report where your data is, what they found and what they are removing. They scan a bunch of people, search.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Sites and data brokers for your personal.

[Ramit Sethi]

Information, including your name, phone number, old emails, even relatives names. And then they get it removed and they keep going, patrolling, monitoring those sites all year to make sure that it stays gone.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

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[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Have you all ever considered how much each of you proportionally makes? I would guess not, because I don't really think you knew each other's income.

[Kevin]

No, not like actually.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So, Kevin, you make 221 per year? Yeah. And Samantha, you make 148 per year. Just like 60, 40, basically. How does that strike you?

[Samantha]

I'm not surprised he makes more.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Are you surprised that it's 60, 40 and not like 80, 20?

[Samantha]

Yes. Yes, I am surprised that it is 60, 40.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

The way you talk about it, it sounds like he makes like 80% of the household income.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You make a lot of money. Samantha, you make $148,356. That's a lot of money. Have you internalized that?

[Samantha]

No. I still feel like how I felt when I was making 50,000.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Wow. Do you think you'll ever feel good about how much you make?

[Samantha]

I do. I think that if I continue behaving like a person who makes almost $150,000 and has those habits as opposed to the things I was doing when I was making $50,000, then I can internalize that.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I want to talk about your savings. How come only one person is saving and it's only a hundred dollars a month?

[Samantha]

I save basically what I can at the end of the month.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Huh. I don't understand that. What does that mean? That's like a little Indian kid saying, I only study when I feel like it. It's like, what the. I literally do not understand the words you are saying right now. What does that mean?

[Samantha]

After the bills are paid, after my exorbitant pet food and vet bills, costs, I save or and invest the remainder.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

As a non pet owner, I have a difficult question to ask you. Who's more important, you or your pets?

[Samantha]

I guess me.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So, but you, you pay close to a thousand bucks a month on your pets.

[Samantha]

That is correct.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And you only save a hundred dollars a month for yourself.

[Samantha]

That is also correct.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

If you want to spend that much on your pets, okay, we can make it work. Honestly, it's, it's very doable. But it is striking that you only save a hundred dollars a month. And your answer was I do whatever's left?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How much do you have in savings?

[Samantha]

I have like 4400. I checked it this morning.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, so let me ask a worst case question. I don't expect this is going to happen, but I just want to ask, just to make the point for you. Let's say that the two of you decide to separate. Okay. And Samantha and Kevin, you both go on your merry ways. Samantha, how long could you last with your existing savings?

[Samantha]

Oh, like a month maybe.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And this is somebody making $150,000. Do you think that that is normal?

[Samantha]

I do not.

[Kevin]

Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

[Samantha]

I don't really want to stop going on vacations.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's an honest answer.

[Samantha]

Don't want to stop buying a book that I want or I don't want to have to make a hard decision about one of my pets.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Kevin, similarly, you have probably 20k in savings. So same question. If you were to separate, how long do you think it could last?

[Kevin]

Almost six months.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. How do you feel about that?

[Kevin]

I feel okay about that. I feel like with the current situation in our country, I should probably have a little more saved. But I felt pretty good about having six months until recently. Recently.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What do you think about your numbers compared to my recommendations for the conscious spending plan? For example, in fixed costs, I typically recommend 50 to 60%. Your numbers are 46 and 39% investments. I typically recommend like 5 to 10. Your numbers are 14 and 10%. And you are putting away pre tax money as well. So it's even higher than that. What do you think of that?

[Samantha]

I would like to increase mine.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Kevin.

[Kevin]

I feel good about those numbers.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. Savings. I typically recommend 5 to 10%. You're at 0 and 1%.

[Samantha]

Not good. I would like to increase that as well.

[Kevin]

I'm kind of neutral on it because we should start spending or saving for like vacation and gifts and that sort of thing. But as far as like emergency funds, and other savings pretty much have what I want in savings.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Guilt free spending. I typically recommend 20 to 35%. You're at 40 and 51%. It's a bit high.

[Kevin]

It's clearly not guilt free spending because we're sort of feeling guilty about it. And you look at that number, you're like, oh, man, you guys must be doing a whole bunch of stuff. And it doesn't seem like we are.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, what do you think about the numbers?

[Samantha]

I do think we probably spend that much, but I think it is, as you mentioned, amortized out over the course of the year. So on a monthly basis, it's certainly. Certainly doesn't feel like $3,600.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Notably, nobody said they want to bring that number down. Whereas all the other ones, you're like, yeah, I want to bring it up. Why is that?

[Samantha]

I don't really want to do less in my life, but I know that's what I have to do if I want to be on track to retire at any point in my life.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

One of the surprising things that I find when I help people with money is when they actually come up with a super clear rich life vision. And then they have a system that funnels money to the right things. They're actually very surprised that they can often spend more on things they want because they've cut out all this random that so many people buy. They also can appreciate the things they do more, especially the bigger they are. It's a human desire. We don't want to do less of the cool things we love. I get that, but I think there's probably larger goals here to discuss, like what is our rich life together and how do we create a vision together? And that can often be more important than, I don't want to give up spending on the things I've been spending on.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know what's wild? People say they hate uncertainty, but when it comes to their own finances, they are totally okay with it. They don't know how much they spend. They don't even know how much they make. They don't know what their mortgage is. They have no idea if they'll be okay for retirement. It's one of the strangest things about human behavior, and I see it all the time. To understand where that comes from, we've.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Got to go back.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's take a look at their childhood to see what patterns they experienced that might be shaping their relationship with money today.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What did your family say about money when you were a kid?

[Samantha]

It wasn't discussed with the children directly except to say like we can't afford that or if you want that, you're going to have to buy it with your own money. But, but there wasn't any like discussion on savings. And I still think my parents have a fairly unsophisticated idea. Investments.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What general area of the country did you grow up in?

[Samantha]

Pacific Northwest.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Both parents. Were they together?

[Samantha]

They were together then, they are not together now.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Got it. When did they separate?

[Samantha]

When I was 16.

[Kevin]

Ah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How did that affect you, financially speaking?

[Samantha]

Yeah, that was rough. Me and my dad lived in this woman's bed basement. That was quite a change going from our like brand new subdivision house to a lady's basement.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What did you feel when that happened?

[Samantha]

I was embarrassed. I didn't want my friends to come over. My dad also had to get rid of his car and he got this like 30 year old Toyota Camry and I would make him drop me off like blocks from the school.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What did he say about for example, having to get this old car?

[Samantha]

He didn't really say a whole lot. He had purchased a brand new car without discussing it with my mother. And when they divorced, he could no longer make the payments on it. So he just had to get any car he could afford to buy. A year later, maybe he somehow found the funds to go buy another newish car.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What do you make of that?

[Samantha]

Neither of my parents are, I hate to say, good with money. They're just out there spending on what they want to spend it on. Kind of the mentality like I worked for this so I should get to buy what I want. And that unfortunately I have realized is similar to what I am doing.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Really?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How so?

[Samantha]

I'm making this money. I should be able to go to Italy for three weeks if I see it. I like it, I want it, I bought it. That was kind of my ethos for a very, very long time and it is something I still struggle with. But I think I've improved a lot in the past few years. I realized that one day I want to retire and I'm definitely not on the path to do that.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How are your parents doing now financially?

[Samantha]

My mom's going to work until the day she dies. My dad unfortunately is now on wife number three and has lost half of his retirement with each divorce. So he's about five years away from retirement and he recently told me he only has like 300 something thousand dollars. And I was like, oh, that's really not what I want for myself at 62.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

When you heard that, did it cause any change in your own financial behavior, specifically?

[Samantha]

Yeah, I opened that Roth IRA immediately.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Really?

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

When you think back to your family and how you were brought up around money, what messages do you think that you learned and absorbed that you are bringing into this relationship?

[Samantha]

What comes to mind is you can't take it with you and you die. And not a great deal of thought before purchasing something. If you like it and you have the money in your bank account, just get it. It used to feel like to me that money was, like, literally burning a hole in my pocket. And if I got to the end of the month and I had, like, a hundred bucks left, I would just say a, oh, well, that's not enough to save or invest, so you might as well just buy something. That is not a feeling that I have anymore, but it is a feeling that I had for a very long time and is reflected in how little is in my retirement account.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right. Kevin, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[Kevin]

They talked about it quite a bit, actually. They owned a business, and so I would sometimes go sit in the office while my mom was doing, like, the accounting for the business. So, like, we talked about money quite a bit.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Did they teach you about investing when you were growing up? A little bit.

[Kevin]

I actually had a class in high school that talked about investing, so I learned a bit there. And my dad would talk about the things he was investing, and usually it would be investing in mutual funds and that sort of thing.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And, Kevin, you have siblings?

[Kevin]

Yeah, one brother, two sisters.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Does your brother also not have access to his feelings?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I would say.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, what was that laugh?

[Samantha]

Oh, just knowing his brother, that's absolutely the truth. He covers all of his feelings up.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

With jokes and this kind of, like, lack of affect. Kevin, would you agree with that way that I'm describing it? Like, it's hard to read?

[Kevin]

Yes. Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I'm asking because Samantha made, you know, remark that, like, sometimes she's very confused. Are you mad at me? Are you not that lack of have affect. You ever see those videos where the mom did this science experiment, she put her baby down, and then instead of being like, I love you, I love you, she just, like, stared at the baby. And then the baby tries to get attention and you go, ah. And then the baby gets increasingly frustrated and cries because it's very disturbing to babies to not see somebody react. Well, I wonder how much of that plays out when you're talking to somebody and you just have no idea. And this is not just somebody. It's your live in intimate partner. That could be a little confusing. What do you make of it, Kevin?

[Kevin]

That is definitely an issue that I could get better with. I just always, like, I don't know, just be the one that doesn't make waves. I don't get up too up, too down.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Where did you grow up?

[Kevin]

Also the Pacific Northwest. Small, smallish town.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And this has been a thing for a long time, like, for your whole life. You not make waves. Not too high, not too low, that kind of thing. Yeah. You like it?

[Kevin]

I mean, it's fine. I guess that's like. That's the whole. That's. There it is. There's the whole description of me right there. It's fine.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I connect with what you're saying because, like, Indian men are not taught about our feelings when we grow up. So, like, that's why I had that wheel of emotions handy, because I freaking use it. And you'll even see a lot of different cultures, like, they never smile in photos. That's not just a thing. There's something much deeper and cultural to it. And now that I've, like, spent the last freaking 20 years trying to get more in touch, and I'm still like, just like a beginner, what I think is most relevant is how a partner can react to that. And I think that's kind of what I'm trying to unearth here with Samantha's reaction to what you describe as not too high, not too low. Like, if you were genuinely frustrated that Samantha is not paying the mortgage or contributing some amount, and you're just like, all right, I guess that's fine. But it actually, like, you off every single month, then I bet you Samantha would sure like to know about that.

[Samantha]

I agree. It is hard. Even when I ask, are you mad at me? And he says, no, I don't always believe that. So to have some clarification on what his true feelings are, either direction would be nice.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can I give us all an opportunity to talk about our fears with money? I'll give you an example from my own life. If somebody told me that I would not be able to stay at the type of hotels that I love, I would actually be really bummed. Samantha, you have a similar fear. If you could not do something with money, it would really bum you out.

[Samantha]

If I could not take an international trip every year, that would really bum me out.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. Kevin?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I would say international trip or, like, going to a nice restaurant a couple times a year.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Great. Samantha, what is your fear of money that you have not said To Kevin. But you want to.

[Samantha]

I fear that the standard I will be able to maintain in retirement will not live up to your expectations, and that will cause the relationship to end.

[Kevin]

I. I don't want you to feel that way, and I'm sorry if that's what my attitude has made you think. I mean, I think with us working together, I think we can have a retirement that is great for both of us. So I'm not worried about not living up to those expectations or whatever expectation that is.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, let's pause right there. Let's zoom up. All of us floating above what just happened. We're looking down at the two of you. Describe the dynamics, Samantha, of what just happened in that conversation.

[Samantha]

I expressed my fear, and Kevin apologized, and then he said it was not an issue, essentially.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. How did you feel?

[Samantha]

It was nice to hear, but doesn't really reflect previous conversations or previous comments that have been made, nor does it align with the reality of one person retiring early.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, Kevin, what was your analysis as you float above the two of you?

[Kevin]

I think Samantha expressed a very legitimate fear. And I tried to just say everything's gonna be all right.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. Why did you do that?

[Kevin]

My set point is just, like, avoiding an uncomfortable conversation or something of that nature.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So she brings up a legitimate concern, but it feels.

[Ramit Sethi]

Feels hard.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It feels uncomfortable. Like if it was a.

[Ramit Sethi]

A door.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

We've just opened up this heavy metal door, and behind it is just, like, so much jumble of stuff that we're going to have to work on for years. So your natural reaction was avoid. Yeah, close the door. It's actually going to be fine. Yeah, close the door. There's nothing in there. It's good. It's good. Is it. Is it actually going to be fine.

[Kevin]

On the path we've been on? Not necessarily.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How about the path you send me in, your csp? Tell me how it's going to be fine?

[Kevin]

I think getting rid of some of that or a lot of that debt and continuing what she started to do in saving for retirement.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Will it be enough?

[Kevin]

The amount that's going in there now? It seems like it's. I guess I just don't know.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, that's an honest answer, and I actually think that would actually be really comforting to hear. Can I give you a different example of what you might have said?

[Kevin]

Yes, please.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right. You might say, gosh, I really appreciate you being open enough to share that with me. And I know that money has not been an easy thing for us to talk about and especially for you to Bring up. So I know it takes a lot of courage to bring that up, and I think what you're bringing up is legit. I don't know the answer to it, but if you're open to it, I would love to try to work with you and try to see if there's a way for us to both feel really good about where we are today and where our retirement is going to be down the road. Samantha, how would that make you feel if you had heard something like that?

[Samantha]

It would make me feel a lot more heard. And I love the idea of we don't necessarily have all of the answers, but we're going to work together to put a plan together.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. And, Kevin, what do you notice about the mock response that I gave?

[Kevin]

I mean, you're not trying to fix everything in the moment.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Men love to fix, even when they suck at it. Yep. Just stop. We don't actually have to fix it. But what else?

[Kevin]

It was a lot more of, like, how we're going to work on it together. Not saying, like, it's going to be fine, but, like, we're going to work on it together.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I want her to be part of the team. And the thing is, Kevin, some of the stuff I said was just directly from you. You said, that's a legitimate concern. So I said that to her because you feel it, but you're just not saying it, and so she's not feeling heard. And I also heard you say, I don't know. Neither of you are a bad person if you don't know something, that's fine. There's a lot of stuff we all don't know, but just to say it and be like, I don't know, but if you're open to it, I'd love to be able to figure it out with you. That's a team.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's what we can do with money. Okay. All right. Out of curiosity, have either of you been to therapy?

[Samantha]

Yeah, we did go together for a long while, but it dropped off earlier this year when my, like, work travel schedule got very hectic. Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Would you be open to going again?

[Samantha]

Absolutely.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Awesome. Okay, Cool.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

This is a great topic to discuss with the help of a therapist who can work with you long term. That's awesome. Okay, I'm excited. I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. Kevin, what about your fears with money?

[Kevin]

My, like, big fear with money is that it will run out. My dad was married before he married my mom, and he lost basically everything in his divorce. And as Samantha mentioned, Her dad has been married and has lost a ton of money, and you achieve his divorces. There is definitely a fear there of. And I know you can do prenups and all that, but it's like, it's very. You can lose a lot. And so I guess fear of. Fear of loss.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, how do you respond to that?

[Samantha]

I mean, I have absolutely no problems with a prenup, but I also am not a hundred percent attached to being married. I understand where his feelings come from, but I don't agree that they align with reality.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Wait, can I do a mock response here as well? I like what you said, Samantha. I might, like, reorder three of the things, and then the fourth one I'm just gonna take out back and never mention again.

[Samantha]

Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Like, that last thing. We didn't need to go there. Let me share another way of responding that I think would be perhaps similarly connective, because Kevin is making a legitimate point. There's a lot of history as to why you feel the way you do. Kevin. So I might say something like, kevin, that really means a lot to me that you brought it up. I know that money is hard for both of us to talk about, and I know, especially for you, you've mentioned you're avoidant before. So just to bring that up, it takes a lot. And I also hear what you're saying about both of our family histories. Like, we don't have great role models for how money has been handled in relationships, and you're afraid of that. And I'm afraid, too, if we get married, I'm certainly open to a prenup. I will be more than happy to discuss. But more importantly is that we find a way to be able to come together on money and talk about it regularly and find something that is fair for both of us. Would you be open to that, Kevin, if Samantha had said that, how would you have felt?

[Kevin]

That sort of response makes me feel more comfortable having that sort of a confidence conversation, because conflict is like, I just shut down. So when it's more of a response of, like, taking what I said and acknowledging and taking that fear into account makes me feel heard and that I can bring those things up.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Amazing. Funniest thing is that most of us, deep down, just want to be heard. You see these, like, really angry comments online. It's somebody sitting alone who wants to be heard. You. You hear your partner, like, bringing up something. Maybe one of the comments one of you brought up, like, ooh, that dinner was really expensive. They're not just bringing it up because they may not even realize why they're bringing it up, but they deep down want to be heard. And there's this famous phrase, when your partner says something in a whisper, treat it like it's a scream. And so when your partner is saying one of these things, you really listen. Listen. What are they really saying there? And if you're not sure, you ask them, hey, is. Is there something there? Is it?

[Kevin]

Are you?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

If you're nervous about money, I would love to talk about it. We can always talk about it. Just like that, Leaving that door open. Samantha, what did you notice about my response to Kevin?

[Samantha]

A lot more empathetic than mine. And repeating back shows that you're listening.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Which part did I drop?

[Samantha]

That it doesn't align with reality.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It's totally cool to disagree. You don't have to agree on everything. But there's also a time and a place for it. Like when someone is expressing their fears, we don't need to like verbally eviscerate them. Truthfully, it's very hard to open up to each other and to really connect emotionally about money. So if one of you even makes the tiniest step forward, what I would really encourage you is for the other to create a very welcoming space. I'm noticing a pattern with Samantha and Kevin. Have you picked up on it?

[Ramit Sethi]

They're not direct communicators. In fact, they avoid hard conversations altogether. They don't ask direct questions. And when they do share something deeper or vulnerable, it often gets brushed aside with a vague, it's fine, ignorant reassurance. They are ignorant of the actual facts, but they reassure each other. This is really just another avoidance tactic. But just now they made a big step forward in that dynamic. Samantha named a real fear. And with some gentle coaching, Kevin didn't change the subject. He stayed in the conversation, which I found awesome. It's a small move, but very impressive. And I will point out another way that they avoid being direct is something that I noticed from Samantha. When she feels uncomfortable, she turns it into a joke. A little self deprecating comment to soften the moment. I mean, how many people here do this? When you text people, you write something, maybe some honest feedback and then you write LOL at the end. It's a verbal crutch that many of us lean on. But if we want to build the skill of being direct, we have to confront it, we have to change it. It's okay to be direct. You can be respectful and polite and direct. That's one of the skills that I want you to learn. From this podcast. Now remember, people don't change overnight, but the small steps that I'm seeing here are actually big moves forward. So let's keep the momentum going. I want to look at the numbers to see how these patterns show up with their finances. I recently asked my audience about Facet this episode sponsor. Here's what Krista had to say after hearing an ad for Facet on your podcast.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I brought it up to my husband.

[Ramit Sethi]

I manage our investments and I was having a lot of anxiety around whether I was doing the right thing. My husband agreed it would be beneficial, if only for my peace of mind. Fast forward a year and I can honestly say it was worth every penny. Krista, thank you for sharing. I am very selective about the sponsors that I choose to work with and.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I really appreciate the feedback.

[Ramit Sethi]

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[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I choose to work with. Samantha, can we talk about some of the numbers here? Because I, I want to start maybe seeing if there's a potential plan here.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right. Your debt. You told me that you have the car and the loan. How much is the interest rate on your student loans?

[Samantha]

About 8%.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. And the car?

[Samantha]

1.99.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

And how about the house?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What is the interest rate on the house? 2.2.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, 2.2.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's low.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right. That's pretty cool. Samantha, how long until your debt is paid off?

[Samantha]

The car loan was a 60 month loan. The student loan debt, I'd have to Start paying it first.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You're not paying it.

[Samantha]

I am not. I paid on it for a year or so after I graduated, but it was accruing interest at a rate higher than the payments I could afford to make on it, so it seemed pointless. And now the minimum payments are like $778. And it just feels like I'd have to sacrifice. Like, I couldn't go on three trips a year. And I don't mind not going on three trips a year, but I don't want Kevin's lifestyle to suffer because of me. At the same time, I know it's very important to him that I pay it off.

[Ramit Sethi]

So.

[Samantha]

So I'm just not sure what to prioritize. You ever talked about this in about that much detail.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Should we do it right now? Yeah, go ahead.

[Samantha]

I have $78,000 in student loan debt, and I'm not sure if I can start making payments on it without it negatively affecting our lifestyle.

[Kevin]

I totally understand that, but how much do you think you could pay? And we don't have to have three vacations a year. We could do smaller vacations or that sort of thing.

[Samantha]

Well, with the current student loan situation, the option is $778 or no dollars. That is the minimum. I appreciate that you are willing to sacrifice some of the vacations. I have considered cutting back on, like, some of the house cleaning, trying to minimize some my subscription spending, make the student loan payment more palatable and not affect us as much in our lifestyle. But I haven't made a move to do so yet because I would like to look at it together and see what is reasonable for both of us to eliminate.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool. The joint stuff that you do, the vacations, the eating out, that kind of stuff. Seems like there's a lot of murky assumptions being made here. Like, we can't cut back. Kevin doesn't want to cut back. Have you all just, like, really openly talked about how much does each of you care about it?

[Kevin]

Not entirely. I don't mind paying more for some of the vacations, especially ones I want to go to, if that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

[Samantha]

Well, that sounds good to hear. I definitely appreciate the generosity.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How do you feel about not getting more pets?

[Samantha]

You know, that's a fair point because I didn't have plans to get any of these animals, but then I just got them. So, yeah, I don't have any plans to get any pets. I do think that, like, I have a responsibility to the ones I have taken on to care for them properly. And I think that has been a bone of contention as well.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You spend about 10 to $15,000 a year on pets. If your pets are non negotiable and that amount of spend is going to be what it is, then we can work around it. But there's a finite amount of money. So if I put it very plainly to you, Samantha, I said you can't go on the number of vacations you've been going on because you chose instead to spend money on pets. How do you feel about that?

[Samantha]

That is the bet I made and I will lie in it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Kevin, how do you feel about that?

[Kevin]

I'm not going to tell Samantha to get rid of any of the animals. I just don't want to get any more choices that I would not have made. But they're here now.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So what would you do if you were in charge of her finances, what would you do differently?

[Kevin]

I would not have gotten the animals. But that's aside the point outside of that it probably makes sense to cutting down on the vacations built into that everything else bucket.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha's guilt free spending is at 51%. That's way, way higher than the maximum of 35% that I typically recommend. Now you all can afford that, but that's because Samantha, you're not paying rent so your fixed costs are artificially low. You also don't have any savings. So Samantha, what would you do?

[Samantha]

I would increase my savings and investment percentages and work on the debt and be really intentional about the vacations that we take and save for them ahead of time.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Would you be willing to do that?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Cool. Kevin, would you be willing to do that?

[Kevin]

Yeah, I think it does make sense. I think previously with vacations and stuff I was just kind of like which this like my very selfish like thought is just like well my I have the money in the bank so like what does it matter if we put on the credit card? I'll pay it off later. But that really makes it hard for planning. It will make it a lot easier to plan and really know how much can be spent for a vacation while still paying off the debt.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I think that you have several layers of complexity around each other. Like an onion with layers. One layer is just the way that you were raised. That's the outermost layer. The way you were both raised with money. Not particularly healthy. Not a lot of guidance on some of the things that we're dealing with here. In fact, sometimes anti guidance like if you have the money, spend it quick. The next thing is because you live together but you are not married or have plans to get married. That adds a layer of complexity. There's just this big uncertainty. Like if you told me we want to get married, but debt needs to be paid off first, Amazing. We can make a plan and knock that freaking thing out, no problem. But it makes it just one more layer of complexity. If there's just this uncertainty out here. Okay, then you have differences in income, but you also have differences in lifestyle. Like, one person likes to take more vacations, the other likes to spend a ton of money on pets. And then at the center of the whole onion is that the two of you don't talk about money and you just make a lot of assumptions. So you've created and you now exist in a system where it is incredibly difficult to work against all of these things like swimming against the ocean current. And what we see here is the predictable outcome. You two are separate. You both feel bad about money. You don't feel heard even though you're making almost $400,000 household income. It just doesn't feel good. And what's the solution? It's probably not to make more money.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What do you think the solution is?

[Samantha]

I think if we had a unified goal that we could work together towards. But I don't know that there is one because to me, in my mind, I'm like. My ultimate goal would be like, we move somewhere else where we can have this house that we both like together. But that doesn't really align with retiring early because presumably you need a paid off house to do that. Not to say that's the only ultimate goal that can exist, but it feels out of sync, I guess.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Have you talked about this? It seems like extremely important. Where do we want to end up.

[Samantha]

Every time we go to Seattle? Verbal. Like, we'd love to end up here. I would love to live there by the time I'm 40. I don't know that he has any intention of moving ever.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You would like to live there by the time you're 40?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You are currently 36 years old.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Where on your CSP would I see evidence of you planning to move in four years?

[Samantha]

You would not see that, but I still would like to.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Same way that Kevin just looks at Zillow stuff but doesn't actually plan to go there. Is the same thing I'm hearing from you.

[Samantha]

Yeah, fair enough.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It's just a dream. I don't mind dreams, but we actually have the ability to turn dreams into reality. Especially with your income. Four years is not realistic. There's no way you move to a much more expensive area, even just financially speaking. It's just not possible. I actually think this is useful. To close doors on certain things is a good thing because it makes us more focused on the remaining open doors.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now. It's like you all have kept so.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Many doors open that you're not even tiptoeing into one. We could do. We could get married. We could not. One of us could retire early, the other might not. We could go to Seattle, but not. So we just stay stuck and paralyzed.

[Samantha]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Is it uncomfortable to close doors, both of you?

[Samantha]

Yes. Like, thinking about what you just said, like, I almost had a visceral reaction. I was like, that's not true.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Right. And what about for you, Kevin?

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Closing doors is a very hard thing to do. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but that. Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What's going through your head right now, Kevin?

[Kevin]

As you get older, things get cut off, and you just have to. To focus in more on what you really want and not having all those open doors because there's only so much you can do.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. And I would rather that we accept reality and then embrace the season of life we are in and plan so that the next season is even better. If I were you, I would start to practice the skill of dreaming in specific scenarios. So, like, we take 10 minutes, and we're just gonna go down this path and see what happens. And we're gonna go all the way to the end, and if. And then we can write it down, and then we can sleep on it. And tomorrow we'll do a different path. No commitments. I would say. You know what? I love you. I actually want us to get married. Doesn't have to be today, but within three years. I would like for us to be married. Okay. Now watch me go down this path and then notice how you feel as I talk. Okay. I want to be married because I love you. I know. I want to be with you. I hear you. You're nervous about money. I'm nervous about money. We should definitely do a prenup, premarital debt, all that stuff. We'll sort it out. I would like for us to have most of our money joint, and then we'll each have some individual money that we can each spend on whatever we want. I plan to work. You plan to work. Our household income will be approximately this much. This is what will happen to the debt. And going forward, we will plan this much percentage for retirement because we would like to retire by the age of blank. How does that strike both of you.

[Samantha]

Framed as a hypothetical? I like the idea of thinking about different scenarios, and maybe it will help us decide which one we like the most.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Anybody feel any, like, guttural reactions where you're just like, I don't like that.

[Kevin]

No, I. I actually. I kind of like that. Instead of just thinking of like, oh, that would be cool.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

Actually pushing the. Pushing the door open a little bit and walking in and seeing what it would be like.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah, that's a great metaphor. Walk in, look around. If it's a clothing store, try it on. How do we like this freaking thing if we don't like it?

[Ramit Sethi]

We could put it back.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's do another one real quick. In this one, I actually love the way that our relationship is set up. I do not want to get married, but I do think we probably need to make a few changes in order for us to live together. So I would like the following to happen. I would like for me to pay the debt off within X number of years. I would like for us to figure out what is more fair for our housing expense.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It's unbalanced. If we need to speak to a lawyer about what other couples do as they live in the same place, but one person owns it, we should go do that. I think that in the short term, we or you or me won't be able to go on as many vacations. So we need to find a solution for that. Either you will have to pay more if you want to go, or we won't go to as many vacations.

[Kevin]

And.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And the debt's going to be paid off in this many years. We should talk about retirement. One person is going to have the ability to retire at the age of blank. The other person's not going to be able to retire at that age. What does that look like? Because I don't like the idea of one of us being retired and the other is still working for like, 12 more years. That just seems weird to me. Okay, let me pause. How did that strike you, Samantha?

[Samantha]

First, I think it's important to flesh out the details of how we're going to proceed. Whether or not that involves being married because our lifestyle is dependent on the other person's money, even if they're not combined.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You're right about that. You can have a very rich life together. Married or unmarried does not matter. It will be easier if you are married, but you could make it work unmarried. I think that's a really good assessment, Kevin.

[Kevin]

It really helps to think about specifics. I do tend to kind of start dreaming and not really thinking through the details. So really getting those details down so that can really see what that looks like is really helpful.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool. It seems to me that one of the things that we can do right now is deal with this debt, because a lot of other things are contingent upon the debt.

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right, so let's talk about the debt. The debt is $78,000.

[Samantha]

Correct.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So you said the minimum is 780amonth, but, Samantha, you're currently paying 180amonth. Month.

[Samantha]

No, that's. That's something else.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, you're paying nothing?

[Samantha]

Yeah, it's deferred.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Oh.

[Samantha]

45 of it is a payment on Perkins Loan, so I guess that is a student loan. And then back in 2022, I did my taxes wrong. So, unfortunately, I am paying $137 to the IRS every month till when it was only a total of. Of $4,000. And I think it's down to, like, 3,500.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

But all right.

[Samantha]

I've just been paying the minimum.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Why do you pay the minimum?

[Samantha]

I want to have the obligation met for the month and be able to spend the money on whatever else it needs to get spent on pets or vacation or whatever.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can I give you some straight talk?

[Samantha]

Of course.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Somebody who makes $150,000 doesn't talk like that.

[Samantha]

Well, this one does.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Hopefully not after talking to me, because one of the goals I have for the people I speak to is I always want to understand where you came from. How did you grow up? What were the lessons you learned about money? What I have found is that people often can do quite well in their careers. You've done extremely well. But often their earnings increase faster than their money. Psychology does.

[Samantha]

Yeah, definitely.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And that's happened here. You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt. You're not even paying student loan debt right now. And more is going towards pigeons than student loans. That's actually not acceptable for somebody making $150,000.

[Samantha]

Well, when you phrase it like that.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Right now you're out of sync, and I want you to elevate. Okay, so let's say if we took what you told me, $780 a month for your debt, guess how many years to pay it off?

[Samantha]

20?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

No, just under 14 years. But let's say you increased it. Let's say you paid $1,500 a month. How long do you think it would take you?

[Samantha]

Six years?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

5.3 years. Oh, to me, 5.3 years. For where you are in life, for your age, for any ability to make future changes. Like, that's not that much. What do you think? You look skeptical.

[Samantha]

Well, it just comes back to my fear of, like, I don't want to negatively impact Kevin and have him feel like he can't do things without me. I don't mind not taking vacations for five years or taking less, but I don't want him to not. And I don't think he will go without me.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Didn't he say a few minutes ago he's cool to cut the vacations down to zero?

[Samantha]

It feels like you would have to be zero at fifteen hundred dollars a month.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Tell you what, why don't we find out? Kevin wants the debt paid off. Right, Kevin? Yes. Okay. Samantha, do you want the debt paid off?

[Samantha]

I do.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right, so you should theoretically be like, I want to put $2,500 a month towards this debt. Like, why worry about the vacations? And Kevin? Let him deal with that.

[Samantha]

You know what? Fair enough. If Kevin wants to go on vacation, Kevin can talk to me about going on vacation. Bingo.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's the type of energy we need to bring. It's like, look, I have a goal. I need to make some decisions.

[Ramit Sethi]

So let me first figure out what.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

It takes, and then we can worry about all his vacation stuff later. And if Kevin really wants to go, let him figure out some stuff. Okay, cool. So 1500 bucks a month. I want to find out where would that number come from? So what I want you to do is to help me identify that. Now, look, you might end up deciding it should be 1300 or 1800, but let's just say 1500 for now, because five years is good.

[Samantha]

I'm not taking on any more like, rehab and rescue cases with the animals, so that spending should decrease.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Where on the CSP is that? Here. 588 pets. Yeah, that should go down.

[Samantha]

It should go down.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Aren't your dogs getting older?

[Samantha]

Yeah, but eventually that'll be dead, America.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I didn't say it. I did not say that.

[Samantha]

No, one is 15 and one is 10. So, you know.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You know what? Thank you. Thank you for making me seem like the kinder one around pets today. I never imagined that would happen with the owner of eight pets, but God bless. Now that we've talked about your dead pets, what's next?

[Samantha]

I have considered cutting the housekeeping to once a month instead of twice a month.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can we do something here? I. I find that it's hard to Just like pick all these like random things and then like figure out how much and all this stuff. So you know what I do when I'm trying to make a big decision financially? I just put the freaking money in there and then I work backwards. So I'm like, hey, I need to put 1500 bucks a month towards debt payment. All right, so let's see what happened. If we go down naturally, your guilt free spending dropped to 30%. Do you see that?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You still have $2,000 a month in guilt free spending. What do you think about that?

[Samantha]

We should eat out less.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How much should we drop that by?

[Samantha]

I think we can cut it in half to 425.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's for you specifically.

[Samantha]

No, that's. That's total, I guess.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right, so let's say 200 for eating out. What else do you need per month for guilt free spending?

[Samantha]

I get my nails done.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

How much? It's fine.

[Samantha]

It's 120.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, 120. What else?

[Samantha]

I would guess I spend between 100 and 150 on books.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, what else?

[Samantha]

Starbucks. Probably a hundred.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's add a couple of hundred extra bucks for stuff you forgot. How about that?

[Samantha]

Yeah. Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Can you just guess how much all that adds up to? Thousand less. $770. What does that tell you?

[Samantha]

It's doable.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's more than doable. You have over $2,000 allocated for guilt free spending. What this tells me is that so.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Much, much of your spending is mindless.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's just random.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

If we actually adopt this plan, you can accomplish a lot of stuff. You can save, you can invest, you can pay off debt rapidly. If you went full, like full optimized, you had your numbers dialed in. It was all automatic. You're going to be more than fine. You're actually investing a lot of money every month. It's almost $2,000 a month. Did you know that?

[Samantha]

Yes, but that's recent. But I'm going to continue to do it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's a lot. If I were you, I would feel really good about that. We can actually calculate out how much you will have. That's a lot of money to be investing and it will probably go up over time. So why I'm saying this is I want you to not think of yourself as needing to catch up, but rather I'm going to make a plan that aggressively invests, aggressively pays off debt. And. And I'm gonna leave myself some room to have some fun. I'm gonna get my nails done, I'm gonna have some Coffee. Cool. I'm gonna eat out. But I'm also gonna be hitting all those goals. Yeah, right.

[Samantha]

Okay.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

All right. So you got 2,100 bucks left in guilt free spending, which tells me because all of your spending is currently $770, let's add in a little bit more. How much are you gonna spend on your next vacation?

[Samantha]

3,000. That does not include the hotel, though, because the hotels are always free because I always have the points.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So you are going to spend 3,000 on the next trip?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's fine. So is Kevin going to spend 3,000 as well?

[Samantha]

Oh, no, I was thinking that was combined.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, so 1,500 for you?

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Kevin]

All right.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Any reason why you all don't do it proportionally?

[Samantha]

I've never brought that up. It's because I don't pay any of the mortgage. So it makes sense that I pay 50. 50.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Why not say that and just be like, hey, I really appreciate you paying the mortgage, by the way. I wanted to let you know, normally proportional would probably be more fair, but I think it's right for me to pay a little bit more because I don't pay for the mortgage.

[Samantha]

I didn't think of it that way.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. And did you see Kevin's reaction when I was just talking? He's loving it. That feels fairer, right, Kevin?

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. All right, cool. So you're going to spend fair 1500 bucks over the next year on one vacation. All right. 125amonth. See how I'm already putting money aside?

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Boom. So this is 770 bucks. I'll put aside another 150. This all adds up to $920. All the stuff we talked about with the nails and the coffee and the trip. How much money do you currently see in the conscious spending plan under guilt free spending?

[Samantha]

2172.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So you have a thousand extra dollars per month to allocate. What do you want to do with it?

[Samantha]

I think I need long term emergency fund.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I agree. Where do you want to put it all?

[Ramit Sethi]

Here.

[Samantha]

Maybe 900 in the emergency fund and 100 for gifts. Because inevitably I'll spend a thousand dollars over the course of the year on gifts.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, fine. Your CSP now says you have $1,172 for guilt free spending. The number is 16%, which I actually think sounds very appropriate for somebody who has $78,000 of debt. At 8%, you still need to live. But 16% is about right. You still got all the money going towards subscriptions and pets. No, Changes in that you are now paying 1500 bucks a month towards debt, which will reduce that debt to zero in about five years. When is your car paid off?

[Samantha]

Four years from this month.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

So after that payment is done, that's an extra 700 bucks. What would you do with that money?

[Samantha]

I would kind of split it between investments and savings.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Great answer. Love it. Perfect. And then of course, when your debt is paid off, which is a bit down the road, but it will happen faster than you think. That is a lot of cash every single month.

[Samantha]

Yeah, a lot.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And you can really start to think about bigger plans.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right. You're like, hey, you know one of.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

My scenarios, in five years my debt is going to be paid off. What I'm going to do is I'm going to redirect 75% of that and put it in this savings account. And then after two years I will have this much and we can use it to do that. Like that is how we start to use our money to really create a crisp plan. Okay. Loving it. Kevin, how do you feel about that plan?

[Kevin]

It's just good to see it on paper. Like it's manageable, like it can be done and it's like there's still money to do things. So. Yeah, yeah, I, I like it a lot.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I agree. It's. I think it's a solid plan and I think it's very achievable. It does need both of you to be aligned and this where I think there's some potential difficulties. So I see a couple of things that are slightly concerning to me. Kevin, read off your guilt free spending.

[Kevin]

Per month and hers 4,084 versus 1,172.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want with. The other has $1,100 a month. Seems like it could be a problem.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I wouldn't be surprised if one person gets resentful when one person has four times the amount of discretionary money every single month. And you both like to travel, so what? Let's just make a plan for it. Like you both like to travel. How do you want to handle it?

[Kevin]

If there's a like vacation that I really want to go on, I can put significantly more towards it because obviously Samantha is putting that money into the debt, which is something that I want her to be able to do. And since I do have that extra go free spending, if I want to go on the vacation and I want Samantha to go with me, then it makes sense for me to put more towards it.

[Samantha]

I appreciate that offer. That's very nice. And I'm certain there will be an opportunity for me to take him up on that. I also don't mind if he goes on vacation by himself. I like to be home a little bit more than he does. So anticipating maybe one vacation together and one vacation separate, just knowing that that's going to happen and that's the plan would be helpful.

[Kevin]

No, I think that makes sense.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I love the specificity of that, Samantha. I love that you said your concept, which is like, it's okay if he goes. And here's how I would envision it. One on his own, one with me. That's awesome.

[Ramit Sethi]

What I would love for both of.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You to do, I think would help move things along, is for one person to just propose something. When one person proposes something, the other is usually pretty agreeable, I've found, with the two of you. But the first person seems to be afraid to make that step. What you just did there was an awesome example. Just like, hey, one on your own, one together. I think another way to look at it is Samantha can just say, I have $1,800 per year for a vacation. I can't wait to go on a trip with you. But anything more than that, either I can't go or I'm going to ask you to pay. Yeah, Samantha, how do you feel about that?

[Samantha]

Hurts the pride a little to ask for help, but knowing that he's open to that makes it sting a little less.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Look, the fact is, Samantha, Kevin makes more than you and he has less debt than you. And so it's not realistic for you to expect to spend the same at parody with him. That actually puts you in a bad financial situation. And Kevin, it's not fair for you to expect her to be able to spend as much as you do. She can't do that. So in my opinion, the higher earner has the responsibility of bringing up issues like this and saying, look, I love traveling with you. I don't think it's fair for me to expect you to be able to spend the same amount that I do. We're in this as a team, and I don't want to financially stretch you. In order for us to go to Greece, that is your responsibility. Kevin, as the higher earner, how do you feel about that?

[Kevin]

Totally makes sense. And I think seeing the money and seeing the CSP and seeing, like, where things are going, it really helps me to be like, yes, I want to go on vacation. I want Samantha to go with me, so I'll pay, you know, 80% or whatever it is. That totally makes sense.

[Samantha]

I feel as though I don't even know what the word is. Like, he already has the vacation money, so it just feels like one of us is doing the exercise and one of us is sort of pity doing the exercise.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I think what you're bringing up is actually the ultimate crux of this, which is what you wrote in your application. The idea that you feel behind you feel that even if you had $1 million, you will never be able to compare to what Kevin has accumulated and will accumulate. I believe you. The amount that you save and invest will never be as much as Kevin. Now what?

[Samantha]

I don't have as strong of a drive to retire early, so I don't mind saving for more years, but will he ever view me as a partner in finance that he respects enough to, like, combine things more if my behavior exhibits that?

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Let's hear from Kevin.

[Kevin]

What we're doing today, where it's like, we have a plan and we're both working towards the same thing and we're both being thoughtful about our money. It's not about getting to a certain number. It's about having a plan. I don't see you as, like, not being on the same level as me or something like that. I've been lucky. I was able to sell my house for a lot more than I bought it for, and that's how I paid off my student loan. So I can't fault somebody if they're not at the same level as I'm at.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

The truth is that if the two of you keep your money separate for the rest of your lives, Kevin is going to have a lot more money than Samantha. That's just life. That's not going to change. I don't think. Samantha, you're very savvy. I don't think you are saying, is there a magical way for me to somehow make, like, millions of dollars more than I have made so that we are, quote, equal in the amount that we have in net worth? Correct?

[Samantha]

Yes.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Kevin, what is she really saying?

[Kevin]

Even if the. The numbers on the page aren't equal, that we are going through life together as equals and not as, like, imbalanced? I don't know.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You know, this is personal to me because my wife and I have had exactly this conversation. I had more money when we got married. I had been saving and investing for a long time. Can you imagine, Kevin, how it feels that you might be putting aside $24,000 a year like Samantha is, but it will not equal out to what you.

[Kevin]

Have, Kevin, I could see how that would. That would not make you feel great. It would make you feel unequal, inadequate, maybe. Even if that's not how the situation really is.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Samantha, how does it make you feel?

[Samantha]

Ashamed. A little bit. And definitely, like, small. And in a conversation about money, might opinion would matter less. And I don't have a, like, right to ask to have those conversations about money. And like, the specifics of. Of his as well recently that kind of came up because his workplace is like, gradually reduction, enforcing everybody. And I was like, should we behave as though we know you're going to get fired and maybe set aside more money? That conversation went nowhere. And I was like, oh, I guess I'm not really in a position to tell somebody that they should save more money in anticipation of getting laid off when I have so little money saved myself.

[Kevin]

My communication obviously can be improved because, like, after that conversation, I was, like, looking at what I should do to increase my savings rate. So I did. I appreciated you bringing that up and thinking that through.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You took her opinions on money and you actually changed something on your end because. Because you valued what she had to say, right?

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And did you tell her that?

[Kevin]

Nope.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Wow.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Is it just me or like, am I the only one who wants to get credit for doing good stuff? Like, take the credit, guys. Do something good. Let them know they love it.

[Kevin]

Tell them, I know.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Get the big hug.

[Samantha]

That's what I've been trying to say. Like, look what I invested today in. You know, affect. We've talked about affect a little.

[Ramit Sethi]

Listen, listen, Kevin, to what she's saying.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

She's approaching you and she's looking for some congratulations, for some acknowledgement. It is a terrible way to have to live, especially in a loving, intimate relationship. So, Kevin, what she is saying when she says, look, I invested in the stock market is like, please notice me. I'm actually doing something here. And for you to give a flat response is hurtful. Let me propose a different way.

[Ramit Sethi]

It doesn't mean that you are less.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Than me because I have a bigger investment portfolio. We are a team, and I want you to be knowledgeable about money. I want us to both contribute to our finances, but you're also better at other things. And I want to learn from that. I want you to be the leader on some of those things. Right? You are great at those things. I can't do that alone. I could do my finances solo, but I'm not trying to do it solo. I'm trying to be with you. Kevin, do you See the type of culture that you will both have to create in your household around money, but with you probably being the primary person to drive it.

[Kevin]

Yeah, definitely. And I think much better acknowledgement on my part when Samantha is making an effort, which I like, definitely has, especially the last couple months, has been really making an effort, and I do appreciate it. I just don't express that well.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah, you will have to. Yeah, you will have to. Because as Samantha is telling you, what you're doing is not enough.

[Kevin]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And she really needs it. And I would, too. Honestly, in a relationship, there's something that I'm really proud of. And I tell my wife I don't want her to just be, like, cool. Like, that would be really hard. So I think what you're asking for, Samantha, is very fair. I do think it's great you've made some changes to your finances. I think even today, you've been super receptive to some of the changes that we've made. What you have reached under any circumstance, financially speaking, is very impressive. Your incomes, great. To put it in the context of how you grew up with money, even more extraordinary. What's missing is the teamwork.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

A teamwork that allows you to. To have really candid conversations.

[Kevin]

Hey, what.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

What are we thinking? I feel a little resentful about the pets. You know, I was hoping that because I'm paying all the rent that your debt would get paid off. And what I'm looking for is a plan. And similarly, hey, I want us to be a team. I know that we're going to have different incomes, different net worth, but I need acknowledgment of how far I've come and how I'm putting this plan into place. That's the kind of stuff that the two of you can work on and probably with the help of a therapist, could really thrive. When we think about today's conversation, what stood out to each of you most?

[Samantha]

I think that it was with some communication, I actually can get the things from my partner that I have been looking to get but not getting because I haven't been talking about them.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Love that, Kevin.

[Kevin]

Honestly, just how good I feel about it and how having a better plan just makes me feel better about our finances.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

I love that. I just did a quick calculation, Samantha. What you would have if you retired at 65 and you didn't increase any more than you're currently doing. You have a sense of how much you'd have by then?

[Samantha]

Not even all at all.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

You want to guess?

[Samantha]

$800,000.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Your mind's about to be blown. So in the bank, if you just keep Investing from now $24,000 a year until you're 65, you would have $3.9 million.

[Samantha]

Nice. Love to hear it.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

That's a lot of money.

[Samantha]

Yeah.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

And I know you can even invest more over time as you pay off those loans and all that stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

When I look at Samantha and Kevin, I see two high earners who have built an impressive financial life, at least on paper. But to truly understand what's going on, you have to look underneath the numbers. In reality, if we go beneath the big numbers, there's a lot of friction. There's two avoiders who can only avoid the way they do because of this high income. And they have carried that dynamic for years. They've embraced it. Today for the first time, I think they started breaking it. They faced the debt. They named what matters. They finally said out loud what they've both been tiptoeing around. We don't talk about money. That's not a budgeting problem. No app is going to fix that. This is a communication problem. And if they can make progress on their communication, they can start to talk more openly about the numbers and ultimately what they both really want. Now, to help them, my team connected Samantha and Kevin with our friends at Ultra Speaking, a company that helps people communicate with confidence, even in uncomfortable moments. Because if they can learn to say what they want and they can ask better questions, then they can stay in these challenging conversations even more. Talking about debt and vacations and retirement. They've made real progress, but they have.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

A long way to go.

[Ramit Sethi]

So let's see what happens next when they finally start saying what they really mean. Let's check out their follow ups now.

[Kevin]

Biggest surprise, how much work we need on our communication around money. I was somewhat aware of that, but I think the discussion really brought that kind of to the front and just kind of how much work we need in that area.

[Financial Coach / Interviewer]

Biggest takeaways.

[Kevin]

Some of our difficulties, I think, have really been around not defining how we want our money future to look. We have these ideas, but we never really get to the point where we flesh them out enough to really understand, I guess, repercussions or feasibility. And I really liked your idea of kind of taking each of those as doors to open, explore a little bit, and then really decided that's a door that just needs to be closed. So that was really helpful and kind of looking forward to working through that.

[Samantha]

It's been a few weeks since we recorded the podcast. I have made Some real changes. I cut back on streaming services, housekeeping, and I even started making homemade like pet food toppers. I was spending at least 150 on this fancy pet food topper before so I canceled that and now I'm making it myself and it's fun and it's a fraction of the cost. I've also been funding investments in saving before before my guilt free spending. And I've been making aggressive payments on my IRS debt. So I'll be ready when my student loan deferral ends. We had our first money meeting and it went surprisingly well. I was nervous, but I used a sample agenda from Chat GPT and we're kind of changing that to meet our needs. It felt really good to sit down with Kevin and talk through things and I'm actually really looking forward to the next one next week. So thank you again for the conversation. It gave me the push I needed and I will definitely be sending you a thank you note in six years when I pay off those student loans.

[Ramit Sethi]

And here's what they had to say about their experience with Ultra Speaking.

[Kevin]

It was a really great session. One of the most important things I learned out of it was just really not having to have the perfect answer in every situation. I think a lot of times I claim up because I'm searching for the absolute perfect answer to a question when really a good answer is fine. So kind of, you know, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Something that I think is applicable in a lot of different areas, not just, you know, relationship with money. So I, I found it very helpful, I think a great resource.

[Samantha]

Ultra speaking session yesterday with Alianor and I was pleasantly surprised. I like that they use games to improve communication and confidence in communication. The games were challenging, they definitely put you on the spot but they were also fun and a little bit silly. One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that it's not important to necessarily have the perfect answer. I also discovered I am not terrible at public speaking, but I just need to bring the same confidence I have at work to the communications I have around difficult personal topics such as money. Another valuable lesson that I grew up gleaned from the session was to not break character. When I'm communicating. I have a tendency to make like a little self deprecating comment and that doesn't really serve anybody so I'm gonna stop doing that.