234. "We have $100k+ in debt. Will we ever enjoy life?" (Part 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 234: "We have $100k+ in debt. Will we ever enjoy life?" (Part 1)
Date: November 11, 2025
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Imani & Michael

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Episode Overview

Ramit Sethi sits down with Imani (52) and Michael (65), a couple with a high household income but burdened by over $100,000 in high-interest debt and more than $600,000 in total liabilities. Married for 24 years, Imani and Michael are out of sync on nearly every aspect of their finances and are grappling with the emotional fallout—resentment, fatigue, and even thoughts of separation. In this raw and empathetic session, Ramit unpacks patterns of money avoidance, the erosion of trust, gender dynamics, and the challenge of aligning on a “rich life” vision when the stakes are highest.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Emotional Weight of Debt

• Imani and Michael’s Immediate Feelings:
  • Both express anger, embarrassment, and sadness about their debt situation.
    • Imani: “It’s frustrating and sad and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight.” (01:43)
    • Michael: “It’s terrible.” (01:43)
  • Imani has considered leaving: “There was a time, one time where I considered taking my purse and my keys and walk it out. I'm at my wits end.” (02:11)

2. Financial Dynamics: Combined vs. Separate Accounts

• History:
  • They started with separate accounts, then combined finances for greater control—this backfired.
    • Imani: “We are both like all in the account, all the time...part of it is taking away the autonomy of the other person...monitoring an adult.” (04:47)
    • Michael: “When it became a joint account...I can go here and buy this and buy that because there's money in the account.” (05:42)
  • Combining accounts increased stress and led to “sloppy” spending. (06:10)

3. The 'Parent-Child’ Dynamic

• Toxic Roles:
  • Imani becomes the “Investigator/Mama”; Michael acts as the evasive spender.
    • Ramit observes: “What we just saw play out was the parent child dynamic, which in my opinion, is one of the most toxic patterns in a relationship around money.” (13:05)
    • Ramit adds: “Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult.” (13:09)

4. The Limits of Past Financial Coaching

• Unsuccessful Attempts:
  • They’ve worked with money coaches, but Imani felt she bore the burden. Michael was passive, reactive.
    • Imani: “It was me at the computer, Michael sitting on the bed...him looking up, saying what you need, right?” (17:43)
    • Michael: “I was more reactive than proactive...Once we went through the counseling session, we never had any rules.” (18:50)
• Pattern: No consequences, no follow-through, lack of proactivity from Michael.

5. Contrasting Money Upbringings

• Michael:
  • Money “never discussed” growing up (24:45); joined military for structure and safety.
  • Post-military, lost external structure, never built his own system.
    • “Everything was very regimented...and it was like clockwork. So that was very refreshing. I loved it.” (26:21)
• Imani:
  • Grew up with a mother who was disciplined and proactive with finances—budgeting, saving, travel (47:58).
  • Lost discipline after marriage; felt pressure to compensate for Michael's spending.

6. The Mechanics of the Debt

• Financial Snapshot:

  • Assets: $603,315
  • Investments: $770,000
  • Savings: $8,523
  • Debt: $601,000 (with over $100k high-interest debt)
  • Net Worth: $780,000
  • Gross Household Income: $22,404/month (~$268k/year)

• Debt Breakdown:

  • Mortgage: $298k
  • HELOC: $65k
  • Car loans: $45k
  • Imani’s student loan: $85k
  • 401k loan: $37k
  • Credit card debt: Imani ~$11k, Michael ~$70k

• Imani: “I’m embarrassed...I feel like the investment number should be higher. At our age, I feel like the debt number should be lower. Much, much lower.” (39:23)

• Michael is oddly optimistic, focusing on how net worth could rise if they sold assets: “If I get rid of this...our net worth will be over $1 million easy.” (39:43)

7. Disconnected “Rich Life” Visions

• Imani: Wants sabbaticals, Europe, “bougie people’s stuff,” freedom to travel and enjoy the results of her hard work.
  • “I want to go frolic...I have worked hard...I want to go and travel to all the places...” (67:13)
• Michael: Dreams of “decluttering,” a simple solitary life, but does not share Imani’s passion for shared adventures.
  • “My rich life is to declutter...just have a simplified life.” (70:08)
  • Imani doubts Michael’s self-description: “I want Michael to have a vision of his rich life. I want to travel and all that. And he didn't say that...If I want to do life by myself, then I'll just go do life by myself.” (70:29)
• Ramit’s commentary: "Hearing the contrast between their rich life visions is honestly heartbreaking.” (71:11)

8. Urgency and Stakes

• Imani’s Frustration:
  • “I’m tired of being the one to feel like I'm pull. I feel like I'm pulling Michael all the time.” (57:10)
  • Worries about never being able to retire, losing out on experiences in middle age.
• Michael’s Complacency:
  • Admits a lack of discipline: “I didn’t have the discipline and rigor.” (59:37)
  • Cares more about being a “provider”—passing on wealth to children—than about their own shared joy.
    • Ramit: “I’m actually concerned about the fact that you're passing on an example that it's okay to be in tons of debt...the most valuable thing...would not be $25,000 or $250,000, but rather an example of what it looks like to be effective with money. To me, that is generational wealth first.” (65:27)
• The Threat of Separation:
  • Imani has seriously contemplated leaving, and both acknowledge that things must change for the marriage to continue.

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• Imani (on their debt): “I'm embarrassed at my big old age, you know, being in this kind of debt...I feel like everything, I'm behind. Like, we're behind. Because, you know, I know you're not supposed to look at other people and other people's lives, but we know too much to be in this situation.” (22:28)
• Michael (on money coaching): “I would say that I was more reactive than proactive...I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life.” (18:50; 19:49)
• Ramit (on ‘parent-child’ dynamic): “Your partner is not a child. Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult...it erodes trust and intimacy. I even call it sexual kryptonite.” (13:05)
• Ramit (to Michael): “I’m concerned you’re passing on an example that it’s okay to be in tons of debt...the most valuable thing isn’t what you give, but the example you set.” (65:27)
• Michael (on his dream): “My rich life...if I could sell everything I had and sit in a room with just a book and a Mai Tai, that would be my rich life.” (59:48)
• Imani: “There was a time...where I considered taking my purse and my keys and our youngest son and walking out.” (62:37)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:43] – Imani and Michael’s immediate reactions to their debt
• [04:47] – Debating separate vs. joint finances
• [06:05] – Increasing sloppiness after combining finances
• [13:05] – Ramit explains the destructive parent/child money dynamic
• [17:43] – Past (failed) money coaching and pattern of one-sided effort
• [24:45] – Michael’s family history around money
• [39:00] – Reading out assets, liabilities, income
• [41:28] – 83% of income to fixed costs—why they feel “broke” despite high incomes
• [44:33] – Full debt breakdown
• [47:11] – Imani’s childhood and money lessons from her mother
• [50:11] – Realizing the gravity of their problem and failed attempts at budgeting
• [56:46] – “Is it too late?”: Imani’s hope and fatigue
• [62:37] – Imani's near-breaking point and real threat of separation
• [65:27] – What are you modeling for your kids?
• [67:13] – Imani’s vision of a “rich life”
• [70:08] – Michael’s vision: decluttering and solitude
• [71:11] – Ramit reflects on the heartbreak of misaligned dreams

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Tone & Language

The episode is candid and emotionally charged. Ramit balances direct, sometimes humorous observations (e.g., “Are you sure? How many terabytes are we talking?” [12:41]) with deep empathy and respect for the real stakes involved. Imani is articulate and forceful; Michael is gentle, reserved, and admits to avoidance. Both share vulnerabilities, but there is a palpable sense of fatigue, frustration, and urgency—especially from Imani, who is nearing a breaking point.

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Closing Note

Ramit promises that in Part 2, listeners will hear whether Imani and Michael can make substantive change when given real-world scenarios and action steps.
Key question left hanging: With 24 years of entrenched habits and resentment, can this couple finally write a new financial story—or is it too late to enjoy the “rich life” together?

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Transcript

[A]

When my wife and I were planning our honeymoon, we decided we wanted to invite our parents for the first leg of our trip. We decided to take them all to Italy and we mapped out exactly how we wanted everybody to feel. We wanted them to feel a sense of awe. Visiting beautiful churches for my mother in law, we wanted relaxed downtime for my parents and I personally wanted a hands on tactile cooking class for all of us to do together. We had a vision and we built that trip around it. And I got to tell you I did not want to do the normal trip. My time is too important to land in a city and then go to Expedia.com to find the most popular sites. I want magical memories that are personalized for my family and me. I want to see things that are going to change our lives. I want to take a food tour and see beautiful design because I love architecture and textiles and I want it to be relaxing. If you want these kind of trips and you want to personalize them for your interests, then I want to show you behind the scenes of how I plan incredible trips. On November 20th at 8:00pm Eastern, I'm going to walk you through how I plan vacations that are part of my rich life. You're going to walk away with real numbers to book magical trips. You're going to understand where to cut and where to spend more. And I'm going to give you word for word emails that celebrities send to hotels and restaurants before they arrive just to give you a peek behind the curtain of how high end travel is done. Don't miss it. This event is free for my money coaching members which you can join right [e-mail] moneycoaching what do you think about this debt?

[B]

It's terrible.

[C]

It's frustrating and sad and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight.

[A]

Are you angry?

[C]

I'm angry at Michael. I'm angry at myself.

[B]

My relationship with money is not a good relationship.

[C]

He's at point now where he should be able to retire, but he can't.

[B]

I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life.

[C]

I don't want to work till I'm 75. I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives at this age. I thought we'd already be there.

[A]

Do you believe that you'll die with your debt?

[B]

It's going to be a stretch.

[C]

There was a time, one time where I considered taking my purse and my keys and walk it out. I'm at my wits end. I don't want to keep doing this.

[A]

Imagine making great money but still being in debt. Where's the money going? Why are we in this situation? Why do we feel trapped by our debt? Today we're going to dive into a story that is very familiar for millions of couples. High income, high stress, and no real plan. Listen to this line from the application. He has run up credit cards, buying electronics. He has little to no retirement saved. And we make way too much to be so stressed about money. I do not know how much longer I can keep doing this. When I see phrases like I don't know how much longer I can keep doing this, that is a sign the stakes are very high. Today I'm speaking with Imani, 52 years old, and Michael, who is 65. They've been married for 24 years, but they have not spent a single one of those years aligned about money. What's interesting is that they've worked with money coaches in the past, yet they keep finding themselves stuck in the same cycle. Michael overspending and avoiding and Imani trying to take control of their finances. I'm about to look at their numbers, but first I want to hear from you. When was the last time you were not on the same page with your partner? And tell me the specifics. I want to see them in the comments. I read every one. Was it not agreeing where to eat out or how much you should keep in your checking account? Let me know in the comments. The last time you were not on the same page with your finances. Now I'm looking at their conscious spending plan which breaks down their key numbers, including their net worth, income and where they spend their money. It's the same tool I use in every episode. Assets $603,315. Investments $770,000. Keep in mind, Michael is 65 years old, already at retirement age. Savings 8,523. Debt $601,000 and over $100,000 of that debt is high interest. Debt net worth $780,000. All of this is raising a lot of questions. So let's get started with Imani and Michael. Imani, you mentioned in your application that you've been married for 24 years and you said something that really caught my eye. You. You said, I want to separate our finances. In fact, I am so upset that I suggested we combine them four years ago. Why do you feel that way?

[C]

I feel like we spoke better or related better when the finances weren't combined. I feel like we are both like all in the account, all the Time. Like, it'll be like, well, why is there a $7.95 charge? And he'll ask me, well, did you go to the spa? You know what I mean? Like, part of it is taking away the autonomy of the other person. And so it feels like I'm being. I'm monitoring an adult. That's not fair for me to try to be his mother. Originally, we did have separate accounts, and then we had a joint account for bills. About four years ago, I was like, we just need all the paychecks to go into one account, and that way we can monitor and get control over our finances. And then what I saw was out of control, and so it stressed me out.

[A]

Wow. Okay. I. I have lots to unpack there. Michael, what's your reaction to what Imani just said?

[B]

It seemed to be less complicated when they were separate, because it was always like, well, I know certain things have to be taken care of, so I can't spend somewhere else. So I had to make sure that the money was there when it became a joint account. It's like, well, yeah, I can go here and buy this and buy that because there's money in the account.

[A]

Would you say that when you combined your accounts, that the spending got sloppy?

[C]

Very, very sloppy.

[B]

Yeah, it did.

[A]

Okay. So, I mean, just to ask the obvious question, why don't you just separate it?

[B]

We. We've. We've discussed that, separating it, and. And. But we didn't come up with a concrete plan as far as when we're going to do it, how we're going to do it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

All right. So it's still on the table to separate your finances.

[C]

Yeah, But. But, I mean, you know, when you. When you talk about what people. When you hear about marriages, Right. It's like it's supposed to be a coming together, and you're supposed to have things together, and I have friends who have joint accounts, and everything goes well. And with us.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It is not.

[A]

Yeah. And of course, you know, if you were to separate your finances, I suspect things would not magically fix themselves. I suspect it would open up a whole new can of worms, because a lot of ways, it's a symptom. Probably. We'll figure that out a little bit more. So, Imani, you mentioned that sometimes Michael will say he's looking at the expenses. He goes, did you go to this spa? What is the next sentence after that?

[C]

From him or from me?

[A]

You'll say, yes, I went to the spa. Right. And then what does he say?

[C]

Nothing.

[A]

Oh, so it's just a question. Like, hey, did you go this far? Did you buy this thing? That's it?

[C]

Yeah. And he usually comes when I'm asking him about, did you go to Best Buy again?

[A]

Oh, oh, okay. Let me flip that then. So you asked, did you go to Best Buy? And then, Michael, what do you say to that?

[B]

I said, yeah, I went to Best Buy.

[A]

Okay, and then.

[B]

And I can't. Like, I'll leave it there.

[A]

Okay, and then how do you respond? Why am I doing this? Just have the conversation in front of me. Go ahead, Imani.

[C]

What's this? What's this? 152 of Best Buy?

[B]

I went to Best Buy to buy some SSD drives for my computer.

[C]

Did you need more SSD drives?

[B]

I needed one with more capacity, so I bought one that was on sale and I got a bigger.

[C]

But don't you have, like, 10?

[B]

Yes, I do. Most of them are filled up with different documents and data, so.

[C]

Yeah, but that wasn't in the budget.

[B]

Yeah, I know, but I'll get the money back in there.

[C]

How are you going to get the money back in it? The budget is based on the budget. You can't put the money back.

[B]

I'll make sure it gets packed.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

Okay. That was quite interesting, what just happened in that conversation, Michael?

[B]

I would say that I probably deflected. I said I was going to make sure the money get back into the account, but I didn't tell anybody how it was going back into the account.

[A]

I agree. And did you actually have a plan for how to get the money back in the account?

[B]

I had a good range of dates that I could put the money back.

[A]

Okay. And did the money get put back in the account?

[B]

I think it did.

[A]

What?

[B]

I can't say for sure.

[A]

What?

[B]

Right.

[A]

That doesn't sound like a plan to me.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

All right. All right, fine. And then what else do you notice about the conversation? The chess pieces. What was each person's role in that conversation?

[B]

I felt like I was under a microscope.

[A]

That's an interesting metaphor. So if you're under a microscope, then what is Imani?

[B]

She is the investigator.

[A]

Oh, wow. That's powerful. Okay, so you're. You have the investigator and the investigated in that example.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Okay. All right. Thank you very much, Imani. How about you zoom up, analyze it for me?

[C]

It's frustration with Michael spending, particularly at Best Buy. Right. And he told me that he needed more of something he already had. So it was my frustration at Michael for buying something that he already has multiples of that, I don't see the need for that. Wasn't in the budget. Here we go again. Buying things in excess. And to me, there's no such thing as putting money back.

[A]

Okay, what would you say each person's role was?

[C]

I felt like the. The mama, the parent, honestly, or the. The one who watches over the budget. And then you have Michael in the role of, I'm going to get what I want. You know, I'm a spend and get what I want because it's. I make money and I'm going to spend it.

[A]

Is that true? I mean, he does make money.

[C]

He does.

[A]

So if he's making money, just out of curiosity, can he spend it on an SSD drive?

[C]

Sure, he could spend it on. But does he need 12 SSD drives?

[A]

I don't know. I don't particularly care either. I'm just. I'm asking, is this a joint issue? Like, is it coming from joint money, or is it an individual issue, in which case, if he wants to spend it on garbage, he could spend it on garbage, as far as I'm concerned. What do you think?

[C]

It's a joint. In my mind, it's a joint. Right. Because we decided that we would each take a certain amount of cash out of the account, and he takes the cash out and spends the money out of the account.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[C]

That's my issue.

[A]

Okay, I got you. Can I. Can I tell you what I observed from your conversation, which I thought was very revealing? So many things happened in, like, 60 seconds. That's why I love seeing the actual conversations. First off, the fact that, Imani, you were like, what's this charge like already? Red flag number one for me, that one partner is looking over the other's shoulder, not blaming you at all. I know that it happens in reverse as well, but if one person has to spend money unexpectedly from the joint account, it's their responsibility to actually bring it up. So that's already kind of like. That's an interesting thing. Next up, it kind of turned into, like, some kind of inspector gadget type of, like, Imani became the SSD investigator. You know, Are you sure? How many terabytes are we talking? I was like, I don't really think that's what we were going for here. You know, I get the sense maybe, like, I don't think you're an SSD investigator. And then we had Michael, who quickly was kind of like. Like, you could kind of see the tone, Michael. It was a bit of like a. A young boy who's got Caught doing something and it was like, you know, yeah, I did go there. No further explanation.

[C]

Just.

[A]

Just going to stop and hope that nobody pays attention and then I'll put the money back. What's that again? It's a very boyish sort of answer. You know what I mean? We're talking about a grown man here, basically.

[B]

That's how our. Our. Our conversation kind of go.

[A]

Yeah, I know, right? That's why I'm here, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's why we're here too, because it's like the same conversation.

[A]

What we just saw play out was the parent child dynamic, which in my opinion, is one of the most toxic patterns in a relationship around money. In my new book, Money for Couples, I break down exactly why it is so toxic. You know, your partner is not a child. Treating them like one will never get them to act like an adult. The parent child dynamic also creates resentment on both sides. The parent feels burdened and exhausted. The child feels controlled and infantilized. And this dynamic creates ripple effects. The dynamic almost never stays just in the financial realm. It seeps into other parts of the relationship. It erodes trust and intimacy. I even call it sexual kryptonite because it's very difficult to feel attracted to your partner when you feel like you are parenting them. If you cannot get on the same page with money, I recommend you pick up a copy of Money for Couples and use the word for word scripts in the book. It's also available as an audiobook. But let's zoom out now. This isn't just about roles or dynamics. There's also real numbers to consider. Michael is 65. They've amassed $600,000 in total debt. And 100k of that. Over 100k is consumer debt, like credit cards, personal loans, car loans. That type of debt typically carries higher interest rates, which means it can really snowball fast. We're going to untangle the specifics of their debt when we get to their conscious spending plan. But. But here's what I can already see. Imani has a strong need for control. It's actually no surprise that she's frustrated, maybe even fed up. Honestly, if I were in her situation, I would want control and I would be angry, too. What's more surprising is that this debt is something she's been trying to get control over for years. She's worked with several money coaches, and yet nothing has changed. So what happened? Why didn't those approaches work? We're going to find out right after this. When I talk to new business owners, I hear A lot of the same motivations. I want to make extra money. I want more freedom. I want flexibility. But I will tell you something that I've never heard. I want to start a business so I can fill out a bunch of tax forms. That sounds like my hell. The good news is you don't need to be a tax expert to start your own business. Instead, you can use Gusto, this episode's sponsor. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one. It's remote friendly and it's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, comp 401k matches, you name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast with no hidden fees and no surprises. Try gusto [e-mail] ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free [e-mail] ramIt once more. Gusto.com ramit one of my coworkers recently signed up for Deleteme and they've been removing her personal information from all kinds of data broker sites. But then she got an email from whitepages and it said click this link to confirm data removal. She asked Deleteme what to do and they told her exactly how to respond, word for word. And it worked. Whitepages took her data down. Here's how Delete Me works. You give them your information once and in about a week they will send you back a full privacy report where your data is, what they found and what they are removing. They scan a bunch of people, search sites and data brokers for your personal information, including your name, phone number, old emails, even relatives names. And then they get it removed and they keep going, patrolling, monitoring those sites all year to make sure that it stays gone. Deleteme built their own technology and they have real privacy advisors to help you when you need it. They've been the experts in this for over 15 years and they work with everyone from judges to journalists. I've trusted them to protect my own personal information and my parents too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit code Ramit for 20% off. Okay, I understand that you have spoken to money coaches in the Past. What was your experience with them?

[C]

You know, we. We got, you know, a system like an Excel file and a system of, you know, set these things up, but the work to do to maintain them. I felt like I was doing most of the getting that done. We were supposed to set up, like, money dates, right. Like times where we come together and go over the finances. And the few times we did it, it was me at the computer, Michael, sitting on the bed or on the counter or on the couch, and, you know, him looking up, saying what you need. Right. As opposed to us both being engaged and me going through numbers and then getting frustrated. So part of it is, you know, I'll say, michael, where are your numbers? We need to. We need to meet and go over budget. I'm going to get the numbers.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I am waiting for the numbers for the last eight weeks, you know, until we did the contest spending plan. I have been waiting on the numbers for two months.

[B]

Very true. Very true.

[A]

This is a general pattern at home, Imani. Like, you're driving things at home, and he's. You're pulling him along. Michael, what do you think?

[B]

I would say that I was more reactive, been proactive. And I don't know that we ever set any rules. Engagement on how we're gonna, you know, attack. Once we went through the counseling session, we never had any rules. So without having any rules, if we didn't do something, our rules broken, there were no consequences.

[A]

That's interesting. There were no consequences if the rules were. But what would be an example of a rule being broken?

[B]

Rule be like, okay, we're going to meet Wednesday at 6pm and we're going to talk about how we're tracking our budget.

[A]

Yeah. Are you generally reactive in life versus being proactive?

[B]

I would say in my professional life, I can't be. I can't be reactive. I had to be proactive. When I'm at home, I kind of decompress, and I don't have those same rules or restraints.

[A]

Do you think long term?

[B]

I do not.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And Imani might find it surprising, I don't think. I don't think I've ever planned anything in my life.

[A]

Tell me more. Imani's nodding. Tell me more, Michael. That's quite an admission.

[B]

It's kind of like I have a vision or I have an idea, and I just kind of do it.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

There's no step. Well, I need to do this step first, and then I need to do this step second or I need to do this step third. In My professional life. I do that in my personal life. Absolutely not.

[A]

Imani, would you agree?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And how about for you?

[C]

I'm proactive everywhere.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Would you agree with that, Michael?

[B]

Yes, definitely. With that said, it's kind of at the point where, you know, I have to be proactive. I got to take action.

[A]

Or what?

[B]

Either she's gonna say, you know, that's it. I had enough, or she's gonna say, or she's just gonna tune out and do her own thing.

[A]

24 years married.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Money. Would you agree the stakes are pretty high.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I can't keep doing this. I refuse. Because, you know, he's at the point now where he should be able to retire, but he can't because I cannot financially do all of this by myself. Right. And I'm at the age. There's a. There's a pretty significant age difference between us. I'm at the age where I want to look at early retirement. Like, he's already at retirement. Like, I want to look at early retirement. I don't want to work till I'm 75. I don't. I don't want to do that. And I also want us to be able to travel and live our rich lives. And at this age, I thought we'd already be there. Right. Like, I feel like. I feel like everything. I'm behind. Like, we're behind. Because, you know, I know you're not supposed to look at other people and other people's lives, but we know too much to be in this situation. Like, this is just dumb and frustrating, and I kick myself, and I'm mad at myself because I feel like the loss of control got us here. Like, growing up, I was so. I was known to be so cheap that I pinched the copper off a penny. That's what my mama used to say. Right. Like, I knew where everything was. I never went into debt and all that stuff. And then, you know, the last several years, it's just been out of control, and I just. I'm so sad about it.

[A]

Okay, well, are you angry?

[C]

Very.

[A]

Who are you angry at?

[C]

I'm angry at Michael. I'm angry at myself.

[A]

Can I ask, like, the tough question here? What makes both of you think that this time will be any different?

[C]

I. I'm hopeful that it'll be different because Michael has a tendency to listen to the other person advice. Right. If it comes from me, I could say the exact same things that you're gonna say, but he's not gonna hear them if you say them. He'll hear them. I'm, I'm. And Michael, please, I'm not trying to be like, mean, but that, that's how it feels to me. It's like if the Internet says it or if you see it in a book, it could be the same thing that I already said.

[A]

Who the. Listening to the people on the Internet. Have you seen the comments I get? The first thing I do is I go, whatever you said, I'm doing the opposite of that.

[C]

Michael listens to the Internet.

[A]

I take your point, Michael. Why is that? You're nodding your head. Why is that?

[B]

Man, that's a tough one. You know, I spent some time in the armed forces. I spent a lot of time in the armed forces for a long time. My life was very regimented. I knew I was going to be all the time. When, where, how, all of that, when I got out, that start to slip a little bit, where it's like, you know, I've been living this rigid life, and so now I have some, some levity to kind of go to the left or to the right going, yeah, we, we tried that or. And that didn't work. We tried this and this didn't work. So to your point, what, what's going to be different this time for me was different. This time I see the effect on. What does it have on their money as far as our finances, what effect? I can see that she's really stressed out about it.

[A]

Michael, do you ask Imani for advice on money ever?

[B]

I asked her for advice. I don't think so.

[A]

Yeah. Do you ever ask her for advice?

[B]

No, I can only speak for myself on this. My relationship with money has been. It's not a good relationship. It was something that was never discussed when I was growing up, even when I was in the military and I was making a steady income. It's just something that there was no coaching, no learning on. So it just kind of carried over from that after I got out of the military.

[A]

Take me back. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

[B]

Absolutely nothing.

[A]

Would you say your family was middle class, upper middle, lower middle? What would you describe it as?

[B]

I would say lower middle. I was raised mostly by my, my grandmother and I didn't have a warrant for anything. Even though money wasn't discussed, I always had what I needed when I needed it.

[A]

When did you go into the military?

[B]

I was 18.

[A]

Okay, so straight out of high school you went to the military?

[B]

I actually pre enlisted before I graduated from high school. I knew in my Heart of hearts where I grew up at that I wasn't going to stay. If I would stay there two years, three years, I would get caught up in drugs and I would have been dead.

[A]

Really? What part of the country, if you don't mind my asking?

[B]

St. Louis area. All right.

[A]

And did you have other family members who had been in the military?

[B]

Yes, my uncle. He served in the. In the Navy.

[A]

Okay, cool. So you signed up. You go in. What was your first impression when you got there?

[B]

And the first time that I had ever had broccoli.

[A]

And what do you think?

[B]

I like. Oh, this is a neat food. I never had this before. It was. It was eye opening for me.

[A]

I died.

[B]

Any military person in basic military training, you're in training, basic training with people from all over the world, all different aspects of life.

[A]

So what, what surprised you the most in those first few weeks?

[B]

The. The rigor and the discipline. During my career in the military, everything was. Everything was very regimented. Nothing could get out of control or you would be disciplined for was very regimented. You knew where you're going to be, when you're going to be there, how long you want to be there. And it was like clockwork. So that was very refreshing.

[A]

You liked it?

[B]

I loved it. Wow.

[A]

What did you love about it?

[B]

I didn't have to worry about where I was going to live, what I was going to eat, what I. What I was going to put on. If I had money, I knew I was going to get paid every two weeks, regardless of the situation. So in a way that it's kind of like being. I won't say babysitted, because believe, believe me, being in the military is not like being babysitted. But there were things that I didn't have to worry about that my civilian counterparts have to worry about.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And then there was the opportunity to. To get educated, travel, and make money as I progress through the ranks.

[A]

Okay. And did you plan to stay for a long time?

[B]

I did not. Whoa. I did not. I did. My plan was to do 48 years, save my money, and then go to college. But I got. I got to travel, live in different parts of the country and live in different parts of the world. And before I was 30 years old, had lived in three different foreign countries, so I saw a lot of the world.

[A]

You see it with the money?

[B]

No, no. This was before we met. This is when I was in the military at the eight years I was. So I was in for the long haul.

[A]

How long did you stay in total?

[B]

Stayed in 20 years and 21 days. Whoa.

[A]

Is there something about 20 years?

[B]

That is when you're eligible during my period to. To retire with full retirement from the military.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Okay, great. How long ago did you retire?

[B]

I retired in 1998. A whole different lifetime ago.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Right?

[A]

No kidding. What did you do after you retired?

[B]

I went into. I went into manufacturing. Basically the same. Same skills and training that I got in the military had transferred over to. To the civilian sector, and I went into manufacturing, and I have been in manufacturing since 1998.

[A]

Wow. What. What do you think about the fact that as a civilian, you didn't have that structure that you used to have in the military?

[B]

It's interesting that you asked that, because I. I remember my first civilian job, and I won't mention the company, but I had a manager where he did my performance review. He said that his frustration with me was that I worked very well off a list. And I was like, wait, what?

[A]

Like, it's like a fish being told you swim in water. You're like, huh?

[B]

Right? I'm like, wait. I was like, wait, what? And basically what he was trying to tell me is I need to be more. I guess, creative, innovative, and I got it.

[A]

Create. Would there be another word there? He needed you to be more. Maybe it starts with a P. Pro.

[B]

P, R, O. Proactive. Yeah.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

I think so.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Imani, what do you say?

[C]

I agree. I mean, I. I think that that is exactly right, that he. I could see him coming out being list, list, list driven, but he talks a lot about, you know, he had to be so regimented when he was in the military, and now that he's out, no structure. Right. Like, it's just a hot mess Express.

[A]

What'd you do with the money that you made in the military?

[B]

I will tell you that. Had a good time.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

I did buy a couple of vehicles. Right after she would give birth, I go buy another vehicle. This was after I got the military.

[A]

So you had two sons, and then you're like, I'm going to go buy a car?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Nothing that was planned. Nothing that was discussed.

[A]

Well, you just, like, walk in and just buy it that day?

[B]

Oh, basically, yes.

[A]

Holy. This is blowing my mind. This is. I never bought a car. When I was growing up, it took us one week to buy a car, and that's when we knew the car we wanted. My dad would take us in there, we'd freaking have breakfast at the dealership. I'm not kidding. We would sit there, we'd negotiate, and Then we'd literally go home and come back the next day. It was a family affair, all of us, the whole week.

[B]

That's amazing, because I would. Imani would call me and ask me where I was at, and I'd be like, I'm at the dealership. And then I would hear click.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So this is like 20 years ago? 20 to 25 years ago, yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yep. Every time we made a major. Like, have a major life event or like he said, every time I had a kid, he drive up in a new car. Look what I got.

[A]

What is that? What's the connection? Is it like a celebration?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I guess I kind of use it as a celebration. Hey, we got new son. So I'm gonna get a. We're gonna get a nice vehicle to take new son home in.

[A]

New vehicle? I prefer a Baskin Robbins cake.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

35 bucks. When I was a kid, we could never afford it. Let's get it now. Fantastic.

[B]

Nice. I'd be in 2020. I agree.

[A]

Every so often, I visit a military base and speak to them about personal finances and careers. I remember one year they had this incredibly detailed minute by minute schedule. Oh, 5:45, assemble for PT 0545 to 0555, walk to PT 0600 to 0700 PT. And so on. I loved it. I love the details, the logistics that had to happen in order for it to work that clearly. But I can also imagine what living in that kind of environment would have done to me long term. And this is a classic example of how a rigid, structured environment like the military can shape someone's mindset long after they leave. You get a steady paycheck, housing is covered, you know exactly where to be and when. There's a system for everything, including your money. But when you leave that structure behind, there's a major gap. And a lot of people simply do not replace that structure with anything. They go from a fully controlled environment to complete freedom. That word, freedom. Note how we describe it in America, as if freedom is always a good thing, and that freedom can be overwhelming. I suspect that's what we're seeing with Michael. He says he's proactive at work, but at home he checks out. And because money was always handled for him through benefits and automatic deposits and the tsp, he never really had to build the skills to manage it himself. Now he's out of the military, 65 years old, and in financial trouble. And Michael is not the only retired veteran dealing with this. According to American Consumer credit counseling. Nearly 3/4 of military families carry credit card debt and they are twice as likely as civilians to owe $10,000 or more. Meanwhile, Imani is handling all of the day to day finances and she's looking at her own future, realizing, I might not be able to retire because he's not stepping up. This is what happens when someone avoids building a system of their own. The default becomes, I'll just wait for someone else to handle it. And in a marriage, that simply does not work, or in my opinion, it should not work. They're not 25 years old, by the way. They don't have decades to figure this out. It has to happen now. And that is why we're going to get into the actual numbers right after this. Anybody have a friend who gets more done in a single day than the average person gets done in a week? It's like they remember everyone's birthday, they're planning thoughtful parties for their kids. They just got a promotion at work and everyone's like, how do you do all of this? Well, the answer usually involves a system. Productive people use systems so that they're not keeping it all in their heads. And that's one reason that productive people love Notion. Notion brings all of your notes, documents and projects into one connected space that just works. It's seamless, it's flexible, powerful, and actually fun to use. With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work. And now with Notion Agent, your AI doesn't just help with work, it finishes it with a single prompt. Notion Agent forms a plan, executes it, and will reassess for any snags. You assign the task, your agent does the work. It is that simple. And there's a reason that over 50% of Fortune 500 companies use Notion. Try Notion now with notion [e-mail] Ramit that's all lowercase letters. Notion.com Ramit to try your new AI teammate, Notion agent today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show notion.com/ramit. This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. Do you have someone in your life who always tries to one up you like if you bake a cake, they'll ask, hey, have you tried using hand milled flour? Because it just tastes so much better. You know, I prioritize my health. Hand milled flour. Do you think I have time for that? Amanda? No, thankfully, we don't need to because any of us can still have delicious baked goods and pastas without the hassle using Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake from frozen subscription box for artisanal breads, seasonal pastries and fresh pastas, all conveniently baked in 25 minutes or less. You just take it out of the freezer, put it straight in the oven, no thawing, no prep, no stress. You can even customize the box. Picking between classic gluten free or plant based. My colleague recently went gluten free and tried one of their boxes. They sent her gluten free tortellini, brioche rolls and giant chocolate chip cookies that her family loves and bakes every week for a limited time. Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off your first box, plus free croissants in every box when you go to wildgrain.com ramit to start your subscription. That's right, free croissants in every box and $30 off your first box when you go to wildgrain.com ramit that's wildgrain.com ramit or you can use promo code ramit at checkout. What was it like to create the conscious spending plan together over me?

[C]

This is what it was like. It was right here. This is how we did it.

[A]

Whoa. Okay, pull that out. So I'm going to describe it for people listening, not watching. Imani's pulling out one of these big pieces of butcher paper and it's got like a lot of categories and numbers a lot. I mean, this is like 4ft high. It's quite large and filled out a lot of numbers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Which I'm seeing gross net. I'm seeing assets and Apple credit card, et cetera. Okay. So they. You did it all on paper. Okay, I don't mind. Everybody does it their own way. And did you do it together?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, we did.

[C]

I guess he was going slower. I sometimes can get a little frustrated and I want things to move faster and so I'll just take it and do it. I'm like, we just need to get this over with. But I was trying to be deliberate about letting him write the things down and see.

[B]

Well, I can tell you how I felt, really. So we're putting, you know, all the categories in there and putting the numbers in there. Things kept popping in my head. Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, I forgot I got this coin set over here or I forgot that I have this account over here with this bitcoin in it. So at some point for me, it kind of got frustrating because, like, I got all this thing, but I don't have any control over it. It's just there.

[A]

Do you mean you have extra money that you were not accounting for or extra expenses?

[B]

I have. I have extra money that, like, I have these accounts set up that I have money in until I go into that account. I remember I was like, oh, I forgot I had money in there. You know, I'll open up a. A bitcoin account.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or a small stock trading account, and the money will be there, and I'll kind of just put it there and park it.

[A]

All right, let's take a look at the csp. All right. Imani, can you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for the entire box, please?

[C]

Assets, 603,315. Investments, 770,031. Savings, 8,523. Debt, 601,468. Total net worth, 780,401.

[A]

What do you think about those numbers?

[C]

Terrible.

[A]

Why do you say that?

[C]

I feel like the investment number should be higher. At our age, I feel like the debt number should be lower. Much, much lower. I feel better than I felt. I thought it was going to be close to negative.

[A]

Quite a big difference between negative and $780,000.

[B]

I know. I had the opposite reaction. I don't think I vocalized it with the Imani. When I saw a number, I went down. Now, if I get rid of this or if I want to done, this will be. Our net worth will be over $1 million easy. How can I get rid of some of the exit access that we have in our household to push that number up?

[A]

Whoa. Okay. This is. I'm already seeing. You're going to make my job easier for me. I like that. Let's take a look at the gross monthly income this time. Michael, I'd like for you to give me the combined gross monthly income number, please.

[B]

Okay, so gross monthly income number is. And is 22,404.

[A]

All right, so combined, the two of you make $268,000 a year.

[B]

That's a lot of money that we could be leveraging better than we have been.

[A]

All right. Michael says a lot of money. What do you say?

[C]

Money it is. It's less than it was. Oh, you know, I took a pay cut.

[A]

Are we. Are we into depressing time already? I thought we were just talking about this number. The hell's happening right now? Is this a lot of money or not?

[C]

It is a lot of money.

[A]

Stop right there. $268,000 a year is a lot of money.

[C]

It Is a lot of money. You are right. You are correct.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

It's less than we've had in the past, but yes, it is a lot of money. It.

[A]

Any kids living in the house?

[C]

Yes, we have two sons that are actually adults, but they still live here.

[A]

How old?

[C]

20 and 25.

[A]

Okay, fine. And all right, let's continue looking at the numbers here.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I like. We have a 401k contribution in here. Very nice. Fixed costs. Imani, what's that number right there?

[C]

It's 83%. That is why I feel broke.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that is why I. That is why I wrote in.

[A]

Yeah, that's it right there. That's the number. That explains a lot of why you feel stressed out about money. That's one reason. Let's keep going. Investments at 1%. And of course, the 1% is a 529. A 529 for 20 year olds. What. What's that about?

[C]

Okay. It has been there for a long time and I just haven't stopped it.

[A]

Why don't you do the same thing for your retirement? Like, you're right, like, oops, I tripped and fall. Fall and put $150 a month into my. How come nobody ever says that to me? All right, savings at 7%. Okay. And we have 600 bucks is going towards an emergency fund. 400 bucks is something called separate savings. What's that are?

[C]

A separate savings account.

[A]

Okay. That's like your individual money. Okay. And then your guilt free spending suggests it's 9% or 1400 dollars. I don't believe that, do you?

[C]

I don't believe that either.

[A]

No, it's higher.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

Where is the math not adding up?

[C]

Michael has, you know, 10, 12 laptops. Right.

[A]

Or what? The 12 laptops?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Just, I'm just, I'm a tech nerd. Do I need 10 laptops? No, I don't. I would be perfectly fine with one laptop sitting around with none of my electronics right now at this point. I've got to the point now where I've been able to do what I want to do for so long. It's kind of got me in trouble financially. But I still have those assets that I could get rid of and recoup some of that and add back to that net worth.

[A]

All right, that's interesting. Okay, so you've. You've had a conversation about could we, you know, could Michael sell some of his stuff and Michael sounds like you're actually interested in pushing that net worth.

[B]

Number up very much so.

[C]

The math isn't mathing.

[A]

I. Oh, I have a feeling it's right here. $601,000 of debt. Can you tell me what's in this debt?

[C]

Yeah, so I have actually.

[A]

Can I ask Michael that? Michael?

[B]

So the mortgage is in there?

[A]

Mortgage is how much?

[B]

I think right now is 295,000.

[C]

Okay, 298.

[B]

298, yeah. Okay. 298. Okay.

[A]

What's next, Michael?

[B]

There's a HELOC loan. It might be 50,000.

[C]

The HELOC is 65.

[A]

Okay. From 50 to 65K. All right.

[B]

Imani's student loan, I think that's 85,000. The automobiles, I would say $10,000 on a. On a vehicle. I think your money owes 35,000 on a vehicle.

[A]

Okay, 45k total. What else?

[C]

My consumer debt. I have a 401k loan. That's 45. No, I'm sorry, it's not 45. It's 37.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Then I also have credit card debt. That's about 11.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Michael, I think, has more. He's got closer to 60 or 70.

[A]

All right, let's shoot for the stars. 70.

[B]

Okay, let's say 70. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

What do you think about all this debt?

[C]

I'm embarrassed.

[B]

It's terrible.

[C]

I'm embarrassed. You know, I know better. I know better. And I. My debt, you know, was going back to school, and I totally changed careers, and, you know, that's the reason for my high salary. But I think the 401k loan was to consolidate. I did some things around the house. The HELOC includes a real estate investment that I made with someone. It'd be different if it was, like, all travel or something like that. I feel like I don't see the tangible for all the debt. Right. And, you know, I want to be able to go on a cruise or go to somewhere without, you know, having to put it on credit cards. And we're not in that position. And I feel embarrassed because we have friends that can do that. Right. I was talking to one of my girl. Our girl, our mutual friends, the wife, and she was out of work, and, you know, she was like, oh, yeah, we have our savings and this and this and this. And I'm thinking in the back of my mind, I'm like, good God, we would be in a mess, right? I'd have to, like, cash out for one case to. To make it work or, you know, take on two, three. Two or three jobs to make up the stagger. And so I'm embarrassed at my Big old age, you know, being in this kind of debt, I don't think debt is a problem, like if you're doing an investment or something like that. Right. But the, the. The stuff we have to show for it is, is it's frustrating and sad and it makes me want to cry and scream and fight, to be honest.

[A]

I appreciate the candor. I would be frustrated too, if I was in my 50s and 60s, if I had high income and in fact used to have an even higher income. And like, where is it?

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where's the money? Yeah. And it can feel like, insurmountable. It can feel like frustrating and hopeless. If you will give me the time, I would like to understand a little bit more about how we got here, because when I start to understand that, hopefully we can figure out a plan to get out of here. I don't like seeing couples in debt, so certainly not in their 50s and 60s. So what do you say?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Imani, take me back to you. As a child, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

[C]

My mama has always been super, was always super good with money. Like she had a budget. She shopped with lists, the dynamic in the house. My mom controlled the finances. And I remember her saying one time that her. My parents got married young, that they combined money and my mom went in to get money and my dad had spent her money and she said that was it. They had separate accounts forever after that. My mama did not play that. Mama, very regimented with money, sent me to private school. You know, to me it was about the budget and about being responsible with money. So I feel like I know better and knew better.

[A]

What did she say to you about money?

[C]

She talked about a lot about saving. Right. We had our savings accounts and she would take us to deposit money like we had to when we got things, we had to to. We could spend some, but we had to save some. Right. It was always spend and save, spend and save. And we had our little bank books and she got me my first credit card when I went off to college. She co signed for it. I used it responsibly initially. So she taught me a lot about, you know, writing down, buying stuff that you pay for. Don't carry a lot of debt, you know, she paid cash for everything she saved up. She took us on trips, you know, for my graduation present from high school, she took us to the Bahamas, my sister and I and her best friend and her daughter. And we went to. For my 16th birthday, I went to Disney World. Right. So you know, we took trips and we had money, and she taught us to be responsible, and somewhere along the line, I got lost.

[A]

Talk to me about that. Where was it that you got lost?

[C]

I think once I got married, like, I did pretty good with my finances when it was just me, because I bought a condo when I was single, bought my first condo, bought my house. The first thing I bought with my first paycheck, I'll never forget, was a sectional sofa and a coach bag.

[A]

Nice. How'd you feel?

[C]

Oh, I felt great. I still have that coach bag. And my mother just got rid of that sectional sofa last year, and I bought that in 1997.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So, you know, I hold on to things.

[A]

What happened when you got married that caused your finances to deteriorate?

[C]

I just didn't stay as disciplined. Right. I. I felt like because Michael was spending, I had to make it up, and I didn't want the kids to have to want for anything, you know, wanted to get them all the things that they wanted or didn't want, or I thought they should have wanted us to go on the trips. And, you know, Michael was busy buying cars, and I'm trying to, you know, do all the other stuff. And so I was using my money to send the kids to camp and, you know, things like that. And so I felt like I lost the rigor and the discipline around money.

[A]

When did you realize you had a problem?

[C]

It was several years ago. We were. There's another financial guru whose program we were trying to follow because I was like, oh, we'll get out of debt, and it'll be great.

[A]

Wait, who is it? Just so we know.

[C]

Dave Ramsey.

[A]

I'm happy that anyone goes on any financial journey as long as they end up at the right place.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So you're welcome here. All right. So what happened when you started under that plan?

[C]

So I couldn't get Michael to go in with me. Like, having Michael stick to a budget felt like pulling teeth. And it. It was work for me. Right. Because the kids were young, so I had. We were working shifts. I think I was on second, he was on third. So we were like ships passing the night we had a baby or toddler and elementary schooler. And so it was a lot to manage. And I. You know, every day I wake up, I'm like, man, if we'd have followed it back then, right? We would. We would have been debt free and living our best life. And, you know, all the. The baby steps and all that stuff, and we still own baby step number zero.

[A]

I'm struck by how Imani describes her relationship with money. She said, it used to be good when it was just me, then it was us. I suspect what's behind that is they've never had a series of substantive conversations with about their relationship and money. Like many couples, they probably just slipped into it. Dating, living together, kids, jobs without ever stopping to establish plans and then to recalibrate them. And now they're surprised it's not working. Relationships don't run on autopilot, but most of us just slide right into some of life's most important decisions. Where should we live if we have kids? What kind of parents do we want to be? How much money should we save? And why? Most couples don't actually talk about these things. Believe it or not, most of us just coast until something goes wrong. So it starts to feel like you are constantly reacting to life because you actually are. Let's talk about the deeper issue. One partner grows, the other partner does not. Imani is clearly into personal growth. Remember, she said earlier she has dragged Michael to several coaches to to tackle the very issue she wanted to talk about. She's clearly ambitious. She changed careers later in life. So the hard question becomes, have you outgrown your partner? This is an uncomfortable conversation, but it's very real. And there's actual data to back it up. A major Swedish study found that after bariatric surgery designed to help people lose significant weight, married people were more likely to get divorced. Another study showed that women who won the lottery were more likely to end their marriages shortly after. This is one of the reasons that when I was dating, one of the top three things I was looking for was someone who was into self development. I knew I was, and I knew that over the course of my life, I would change and I would grow. And I wanted someone who already had built that into their own life. And once you start growing, you want your partner to grow, too. And I see it all the time. The person who has finally learned about money, they start offering advice to their partner, and they get increasingly frustrated that their partner just ignores it. But be honest and think back to three years ago, five years ago. If someone had told you then you got to use a csp, you got to automate your finances, you probably would have rolled your eyes, too. That is the side of personal development that very few people talk about. You can grow faster than your partner, and they may never develop the same interest that you did. So what do you do? Have you talked about it? Not hinted, not fought? I mean, a series of real honest conversations about how your life is changing and what it means for your relationship, why it's important to you. If this sounds familiar, if you are feeling something right now in your chest or in your stomach and you're going, oh my God, I think that might be me, then I want to encourage you to join my Money Coaching program. It is designed to help couples like you stop spinning in circles, stop feeling like you have a wedge between you, and actually start building a life together. Here's why it works. Money Coaching does not just focus on the numbers. Although we will help you understand your own finances, we dive into the psychology behind your financial decisions and the dynamics of your relationships. You're going to learn how to have actual, productive conversations, how to align on your goals even if you see things differently, and how to create a plan that works for both of you. Plus, you'll have personal access to me during monthly coaching calls and a supportive community to hold you accountable. Imagine just having at least one hour a month where the two of you are talking about money in a guided format. Now, you can come solo or you can bring your partner to the program. Either way, I know that it's going to help you. So if you are ready to start building your rich life together, join Money Coaching. You can sign [e-mail] moneycoaching I'll put the link in the description below as well. Here's a DM I got from one of my listeners about this episode's sponsor, Element I love it. After my sauna cold plunge sessions I do two rounds of sauna then cold plunge. I love drinking Element after my sessions. Another person said, sometimes I use it the morning after I've had a few too many drinks. I appreciate the feedback. If you like to sweat it out in the sauna or you need to feel a little better after a night out, Element can be a great way to replace your electrolytes. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte mix that comes in easy to use packets in great flavors like citrus, salt and watermelon. When you're sweating like you're at the gym or hiking or just in the heat, you're losing more than water. Elemnt helps you stay sharp, avoid cramps and feel better. It's used by Navy SEALs, Olympic athletes and pro sports teams. And now what started as a seasonal drop lemonade salt is officially a favorite. It's perfect with iced tea for a salty Arnold Palmer. Get a free 8 count sample pack of Element's most popular drink. Mix flavors with any [e-mail] Ramit that's drinklmnt.com Ramit Find your favorite element, flavor, or share with a friend and you can try it totally risk free. If you don't like it, they will give you your money back, no questions asked. Does it feel hopeless now? Like, we. We didn't follow it 20 years ago, so it's pointless to even start now?

[C]

No, no, definitely not pointless. As long as you have breath in your body and air in your lungs. Air in your lungs and in life. No, there's always tomorrow, right? There's always. The best time to start is now. And we're not as far behind. Like, again, listening at all the people that you've talked to on your podcast, I'm like, oh, dead bad of faith, right? Like, there's a way to turn this around. We just gotta.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

Both be wanting, willing to do it. Because I'm tired. I'm tired of being the one to feel like I'm pull. I feel like I'm pulling him. I feel like I'm pulling Michael all the time. And I am. And I want Michael to retire. I don't want him to. To have to keep working forever. I want us to be like, oh, let's go, you know, let's take a sabbatical. Like, I want to go frolic around Europe, right? I want to go, you know, do all those things.

[A]

But, Michael, are you surprised hearing Imani share this?

[B]

We. We've discussed it before. Probably not to. Not to this level, but again, I could sense the frustration. And I remember when she told me, hey, we're going to be doing this with Ramit, I was actually kind of relieved.

[A]

That actually doesn't surprise me though, Michael. Yeah, it doesn't surprise me because this is yet one more way of delegating work from you to somebody else, in this case, me. Do you want somebody to just tell you what to do with the money?

[B]

I'm looking for advice.

[A]

Great. I love that.

[B]

I'm not looking for anybody to do the work. I love it. Work in. You just tell me which direction I need to be going in versus what I think.

[A]

Beautiful. You're here to play play ball. That's great. That's what I want. Okay.

[B]

This is my vision or my goal is to link or connect with someone that I can trust, to kind of manage. Manage the money and make sure that it goes in the right places, that it has some element of debt reduction, but at the same time, some element of investment. Whereas you're reducing debt, your net worth networks are increasing Like a money manager that manages your household finances.

[A]

You want someone who will reduce your debt, increase your net worth, and you stay pretty hands off.

[B]

No, I. I will monitor it. But something. Somebody knows a lot more about investing money. Somebody that knows a lot more about what's the best way to reduce an X number amount of debt. I. I don't have that knowledge to do that.

[A]

Now, let me ask you, Michael, because you all spoke to at least one money coach, if not more. Presumably they talk to you about debt. What happened as a result of that?

[B]

I would say that I didn't have the discipline and rigor. You now? Yeah, yeah, because it's a. It's affecting my wife, and I can see that it's affecting.

[A]

So what about you?

[B]

Me? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I know we're going to get to this, but my rich life right now is if I could sell everything I had and sit in a room with just a book in a Mai Tai, that would be my rich life.

[A]

What? Really? I never heard that on this podcast. Makes my life so easy. Is this for real?

[B]

Yeah. I'm serious.

[A]

What the hell? Hold on. Turn that camera around for a second. Show me. Show me what's in this room right now.

[B]

Well, so right now, I'm. I'm remote. I work remote.

[A]

Oh, okay. Will you send me a picture of, like, the 10 laptops and all that stuff?

[B]

Yeah. And more. You'll be like. You say. You'll be like, what the.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Boom.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I hope you shock me. All right, that's good.

[B]

Yeah. When I look at, you know, when you say assets, I think there's more there than what that figure shows just on what I have in the household.

[A]

Like computers and stuff.

[B]

Computers. One time, I was heavy into music, so I have. I have some pieces.

[A]

Imani, any surprises hearing what Michael just told us?

[C]

Absolutely. I said, what the. Just like you did.

[A]

What surprised you?

[C]

The whole. If I could. If Michael's saying if he could sit in a room with just a book, I absolutely do not believe it. I absolutely do not. Unless something changed in the last couple weeks, I don't believe it. Because to me, the way you spend your money is what you value. Right. And I get being a tech head, I understand wanting to have a hobby. I do. I get it. Right. Because there are things that I like. Right. I love Converse sneakers. I have 20 pairs. But Converse don't cost $1,000 a pop. Right. And so, you know, I understand that Michael is concerned about, you know, me packing up and leaving or he Says stuff to. To like, she go, you gonna put me out? It has crossed my mind a time of three or four or five.

[A]

Hold on. Is this a joke or is this serious?

[C]

No, I'm serious.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

We've had that discuss. We've had that conversation.

[A]

And he'll say that I. I don't joke about divorce with my wife. Ever. Never ever. I just want to understand, is this like a. Has this joke gone on for a long time? Is this, Is there a cultural thing that I'm missing here? Because, like, I also don't know any Indian couples that joke about ever. And I just want to understand because it, to me is like quite serious.

[B]

That's.

[A]

That.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's interesting. I think part of this is culture. When you say Imani, maybe for me.

[C]

I mean, I think we're joking most of the time. But, Michael, there are times where I'm serious. Like there, There was a time, one time where I considered taking my purse and my keys and our youngest son and walking out.

[B]

I can see that. I can see that. I knew that it was getting to that point.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[C]

Which is why I wrote in. Because. Because I. I'm at my wits in. Right. Like, I don't want to keep doing this.

[A]

Okay. It's serious. All right. We're. We all agree something big has to change.

[B]

Yeah, perfect. Y. Y.

[A]

Okay. Michael, are you at all worried about not being able to retire?

[B]

I would be remiss if I say that I wasn't. Realistically, do I think I ever will retire? I would, I would say as far as full time work, yes. Moving away from full time work and going into consulting, because at this point in my career, as long as I've been doing it, as long as I've been certified in it, I receive. I would say that I'm at a certain level of mastery for what I do. So based on my experiences, my education, the different Fortune 500 companies that I work for, I believe there will always be consultant work for me to do.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Do you believe that you'll die with your debt?

[B]

My goal is not to. Is it a. Is a realistic goal, it's going to be a stretch. So if I look at my current savings in my 401ks, if I stay on that trajectory in my 401ks, they will exceed my debt that I currently carry. My main concern is, is where do I leave my family?

[A]

No, that's. Many, many people, especially men, they. They see themselves as a provider and they will often first they start off by, you know, taken on work so they can provide for their family. Often they might be earning good money. They spend a lot of money sometimes too. They're not often, like, tightly interwoven with the finances. That's what's happened here. Maybe they rack up debt, maybe not. But eventually, when I ask them questions about their own financial situation, they often appear relatively nonchalant. It's okay. Like, I'll be fine. I can consult, etc. But the thing I care about is passing it on to my kids. I'm actually concerned about the fact that you're passing on an example that it's okay to be in tons of debt. You could give them a big old check. They'll just burn it like you've burned it.

[B]

Report.

[A]

So the most valuable thing, in my opinion, you could pass on would not be 25, 000 or 250, 000, but rather an example of what it looks like to be effective with money. To me, that is generational wealth first. How does that strike you?

[B]

I think it's porno.

[A]

Michael. Your answer was, in my opinion, not particularly inspiring and not a great answer because I was like, are you concerned about not being able to retire? You were like, well, I'll be able to work. What I'm concerned about is, like, giving something to my kids. I'm like, wait, so we just skipped over from you being in your 60s to dying? What about the rest of your life? No joy, no travel, no nothing? Huh.

[B]

I'd like to try. I would like to travel to some of these.

[A]

Where. How's the. Where's the money coming from?

[B]

Yeah, that part. That part right there.

[A]

All right, all right. So there's. There's problems here. Okay. And, you know, just to summarize what I saw, we have no. Since childhood. No talking about money.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

Developmental years. You know, in your teens and twenties and thirties. It was like somebody else basically handled for me whatever money I made. Maybe I'm saving a little, but I'm spending a lot. Enter the civilian world and just, like, spending a ton of money. And after 20, 30 years, I have tons of debt in a very complex system. That does not make it easy to talk about, by the way. I also don't really talk to my wife about these numbers. Okay.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

All right. Imani, you know, I'm curious. You mentioned wanting to travel. You mentioned things like a sabbatical. I wonder for a second if you can just tell me, like, I bet you've thought about your rich life. What is it?

[C]

Oh, Absolutely. It is going to Europe for three months at a time or going to an island. Right. Just say, hey, guys, let's. Let's go. Right? Let's go spend time frolicking. I want to go frolic. Right. I have worked hard. Damn hard. Went back to school in my 40s with two kids and a full time job and a husband in a household. Went back to law school. Right. And did that.

[A]

Damn.

[C]

And switch careers. I did that in 2015-2019.

[A]

That is insane. Congratulations.

[C]

Thank you. So I'm no stranger to hard work, but at this time, when I envisioned my life as a child, at this point, I would be wealthy. I'd be able to own my time and not be a slave and have on golden handcuffs. I want my investments to work for me and I want to go and travel to all the places and go to the premieres and I want to go to. To cons and to Martha's Vineyard and all those things. Right. I want to do the bougie people's stuff.

[A]

All right, I hear you. I like that. It's. What I especially like is that you've come on a journey and I like that you have a vision. It's obvious you've thought about this, which gets. I can tell it's exciting to you. It gets me excited. Michael, how do you feel hearing that?

[B]

Well, I'm excited for. I think that's a worthy goal. She's worked hard and I think she deserved that.

[A]

And do you want to go to some of those places, too?

[B]

Sure. I mean, I traveled. I traveled early in life. Before I was. Before I was 30 years old. Had lived in three different foreign countries, so I saw a lot of the world.

[A]

You see it with the money?

[B]

No, no. This was before we met. This is when I was in the military and I did a little trouble after I got out of the military. So I think she deserved the opportunity to be able to do that, because I got to do it on Uncle Sam dying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Michael, what's your rich life?

[B]

My rich life is to declutter. Get some rid of some of the material things that I have.

[A]

I don't believe you.

[B]

I'm serious. I. I'm so. I'm so done with it.

[A]

But wait, when. Okay, if this is true, maybe I'm wrong. When was the last time you did a semi serious declutter?

[B]

Oh, I think. I think we've done two in the garage. We actually. We actually pay somebody to come in and assist us in it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Again, it. It didn't stick.

[A]

So your rich life is to declutter.

[B]

And get rid of this debt.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And. And just have a. Just simplified life. Just really have a simple life. I have more than I deserve.

[A]

Okay. I'm going to help you come up with an even more powerful vision of a rich life. Okay. Imani, I see you nodding over there. How come?

[C]

Because I feel like everything that he says, I don't know if it's because he's looking at the effect of things on me. Right. I want Michael to have a vision of his rich life like you talked about. I want to travel and all that. And he didn't say that. Right. And so for me, it feels like he's like, oh, I've lived my life and I've traveled the world. You go do that by yourself. And I don't want to do life by myself. If I want to do life by myself, then I'll just go do life by myself. I wouldn't have rode into this program. I would have just said, you know what? I'm over it. I'd have cashed out part of my 401k, paid off my debt, take my children and just go, wow.

[A]

Hearing the contrast between their rich life visions is honestly heartbreaking. And the layers here are striking. Michael and Imani's vastly different experiences with money growing up and how they manage it today, and mostly how they envision their futures. Now, I see a generational issue here as well. Michael's backstory reveals an upbringing that did not encourage him to dream beyond survival. It was earning an income, landing on his feet. And I want to account for his background, but I also don't want to let it distract from the larger issue. Another striking layer here is the prototypical gender dynamics at play. Imani, she's got this bold, vibrant vision of travel, adventure, a rich life full of wants, things that she wants to see. Meanwhile, Michael's dream is solitary. A book, a Mai Tai, and leaving money for the kids. Personally, as a man in my 40s who has seen other men shrink and increasingly not want to hang out with friends, increasingly only talk about things like a man cave and even say things like, you know, I hate people. I don't really want to hang around anybody anymore. This leaves me really sad and disconnected. I am urgently fighting against that. I am creating guys trips. I'm trying to hang with more friends. And from Imani's perspective, if that were my partner, it would honestly make me feel hopeless. And to make matters even more frustrating, he seems to be responsive to another man's advice. But not his own wife's. Imani has said point blank she's considering leaving and and I believe her. If you can't even agree on what a rich life looks like by this point in life, what are the chances they can actually make the huge changes needed? We are going to answer that question in a very surprising Part two next week. Not only are we going to finish this conversation, but I sent Imani and Michael away and had them come back with actual changes and you are going to see what happens. Specifically where I shared some actual scenarios from our partners at Facet around exactly what they need to do if they want to reach their retirement goals. Will they do it? Will they even come back? What surprising things will they have done? Trust me, you will not want to miss next week's Part two. Facet is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. Investing involves serious risk and past performance is not a guarantee of future performance or success. I'm not a member of Facet. I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation. Based on this endorsement. My opinions are included and should not be interpreted as a recommendation or research regarding any investment or investment strategy, legal or tax advice. If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this [e-mail] apply or you can become a member of my Money Coaching program [e-mail] Money coaching. In money coaching, you get access to monthly calls where I answer your questions directly on a private call and I get the chance to go much deeper on the concepts of money that have made a huge change in my life. Plus, you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out money [e-mail] moneycoaching.