236. “She spent $5K behind my back. How can I trust her?”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 236: “She spent $5K behind my back. How can I trust her?”
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Alex & Jackie
Date: November 25, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into how hidden financial decisions impact trust in a marriage. Ramit Sethi coaches Alex and Jackie, a North Dakota couple with four young kids, through a candid conversation about breached trust, broken systems, money mindsets shaped by faith and childhood, and how to build a sustainable, shared approach to finances. As always, Ramit pushes beyond the numbers to the emotional, relational, and psychological layers, crafting actionable guidance for any couple facing money conflicts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Incident: Breach of Trust and Its Aftermath

• The $5,000 Purchase ([01:30], [21:02]):

  • Jackie spent $5,000 on a coaching program without Alex’s prior knowledge or agreement.
  • Alex describes feeling “like the floor dropped out. Like, whoa. I didn’t know you could do that ... Betrayed.” ([21:45])
  • Jackie had a panic attack after; the decision stemmed from deep depression and feeling lost. She confesses: “I needed someone who was outside of it all to give me just a broader perspective.” ([22:32])

• Patterns of Secrecy and Reactivity:

  • This wasn’t the only instance—Jackie later took out $16,000 in debt for a photography coaching program, after consulting Alex this time. She made only $6,000 back.
  • The couple repeatedly falls into cycles of financial emergency and rescue, rather than proactive planning.

2. Money Management Systems: Broken by Design

• Archaic Tracking ([06:17], [09:00], [10:22]):

  • Alex obsessively tracked every purchase in a spreadsheet for almost 10 years, with Jackie texting him expenses in real time.
  • Despite this meticulous record-keeping, overspending persisted and both felt overwhelmed:
    • “I love tracking something for an entire decade that I never actually win at. Really motivates me.” – Ramit ([12:19])
    • “Our systems are broken.” – Jackie ([13:05])
    • Ramit likens this to "constantly sweating at the gym but never getting fitter”: Tracking for the feeling of control, not for progress ([13:06]).

• Conscious Spending Plan (CSP):

  • Ramit introduces his CSP as an alternative to endless tracking, focusing on big-picture allocation and values, not guilt, anxiety, or archaic systems ([15:27]).

3. Income, Spending, and Hidden Dangers

• Financial Overview ([02:17], [32:02], [77:09]):

  • Net worth: $189,405
  • Income: $91,968 (primarily Alex’s)
  • Savings dwindling – at one point $35,000, now $16,000; drawing down each month to cover expenses.
  • Fixed costs at 87% of take-home pay, with $1,550/month on groceries (equal to their mortgage) and $569/month on tithing.
  • “When you’re at 87% [fixed costs], I never even need to meet you. I can already tell you’re stressed out about money.” – Ramit ([32:02])

• Lack of Proactivity:

  • The family lives reactively—plugging holes, hoping for miracles, expecting to earn more as a solution. “All of us believe that more income will magically solve our money problems. But in reality, they would just scale up the same mistakes.” ([47:33])

• No Strategic Confinement:

  • No spending threshold, no pre-discussed approval level. Jackie: “There’s no limit [on kid expenses].” Alex: “It’s arbitrary because we don’t follow it.” ([42:23])

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4. The Psychology Behind Their Money Scripts

• Family Upbringing & Faith Influences ([51:25], [59:26]):

  • Alex: Grew up valuing saving, tithing, debt aversion—“Never carry credit card debt.” But also witnessed repeated draining of savings in crisis.
  • Jackie: Learned as a child that “we don’t have the money” for things, money is for others or for emergencies, and her father (recently deceased) was secretive about financial know-how, fostering confusion and passivity in her adult money behaviors.

• Impact of Religious Faith ([60:11], [62:31], [66:02]):

  • Both are Christian and have a deep commitment to tithing—a source of faith but also avoidance.
  • Jackie: “It’s like our poor choices fuel our desire to have positive behavior. I’d rather just have the positive behavior outright.” ([71:11])
  • Ramit gently challenges: “Hope is not a financial strategy. God is not a financial strategy. We need to make a plan.” ([63:14])

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5. Chaser/Avoider Dynamic & Emotional Patterns

• Role Entrenchment:

  • Alex (Chaser): Tries to control chaos with systems, takes responsibility for “leadership”, but lacks compassion and joy in the process. “It feels like I’m a farmer running after 20 chickens and nothing works.” ([04:55])
  • Jackie (Avoider/Dreamer): Feels out-of-control, reluctant to engage with the numbers, seeks escape through aspiration and faith/bailouts.

• Recurring Dynamic ([47:42]):

  • “Chaser/Avoider Dynamic” from Ramit’s book—both partners are exhausted in their rigid roles, unable to truly collaborate or move forward.

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6. Turning Point: Facing the Realities & Rebuilding Trust

• Facing Their Numbers ([77:09]):

  • Ramit confronts them: “My assessment is that you are in considerable danger…you are actually spending more than you make every single month. When you factor everything in and you are putting yourself at risk.” – ([77:09])
  • Jackie’s tendency is crisis-response—wanting to “make money fast” to plug holes. Ramit calls for a total mindset shift: “Life cannot simply be putting out fires for the rest of our life.”

• Conscious Choices—Making Real Changes ([79:29]):

  • Systematic reduction of expenses (ex: groceries cut from $1,550 to $1,200/month), questioning subscriptions, clothes, gas.
  • Sacred Cows: Tithing
    • After much soul-searching, both agree to temporarily reduce tithing to $50/month, with the goal of ramping back up as their finances improve. “That sounds like the slow growth you were talking about.” – Jackie ([85:44])
    • Ramit affirms: “This is who you believe you are… even still when I’m pushing and probing, you are listening… you’re ready to make some changes.” ([86:05])

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7. Building a Effective System for the Future

• Shared Responsibility & Ditching Broken Systems ([94:26], [100:31]):

  • Move away from Alex’s solo tracking to a shared, streamlined use of Ramit’s CSP.
  • Assign clearer shared responsibilities—Jackie manages her own spending and the grocery budget, Alex steps back from micromanagement.
  • Weekly money meetings are reinstated but based around visions, values, and progress—not just crisis mode.

• Allocating Windfalls Intentionally ([93:08]):

  • Plan for annual bonuses (e.g., $9,000)—split between debt repayment, bolstering savings, reigniting tithing, and setting aside for Jackie’s dreams (music recording) in dedicated accounts.

8. Restoring Trust & Renewed Partnership

• Trust Restoration ([71:55], [96:57], [99:19]):
  • Alex: Trust will be rebuilt if Jackie is willing to communicate about big expenses and stick to agreed-upon plans.
  • Jackie: Gains a sense of agency by managing part of the budget, not just reporting to Alex. “It’s been really nice to have these categories really set in stone, per se. Even combining guilt free spending with groceries gives me incentive because if I spend less on groceries, I have more in guilt free spending.” ([100:31])
  • Both find early wins—coming in under budget, feeling connected.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Broken Budgeting:

  • “Why do you do it? I don’t know. You do it because you crave control. And it’s easier to control cell D46 than to actually zoom out and look at the real problem.” – Ramit ([13:06])

• On Emotional Impact of Money Disagreements:

  • “Just like the floor dropped out. Like, it hurt really bad.” – Alex ([21:45])
  • “The next morning I had an extreme panic attack and I thought that I was going to die in my sleep because I had made that decision.” – Jackie ([22:06])

• On Faith and Miracles:

  • “Hope is not a financial strategy. God is not a financial strategy. We need to make a plan.” – Ramit ([63:14])
  • “There was this element of, like, wow... God really supported us. Like, I don’t... It felt otherworldly.” – Jackie ([62:47])

• On Systems:

  • “The system you build is supposed to guide you, not make you feel overwhelmed and lost... 10 years of budgets over 500 hours and they still feel like they’re drowning. Do you see why I hate budgets?” – Ramit ([13:06])

• On Partnership:

  • “My biggest surprise… was just how willing and excited Jackie is about partnering with me in the finances and coming together … [to share] our own areas of responsibility.” – Alex ([99:19])
  • “It’s changed so much for us. It’s so nice to have self-control in one area. I just hope that it continues to bleed over into other areas.” – Jackie ([100:31])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:30] The $5k purchase and breach of trust
• [06:17] Their budgeting system: texting every expense
• [13:06] Ramit dissects why meticulous budgets fail
• [21:45] Alex’s betrayal and Jackie’s panic attack
• [29:39] Net worth and reactive attitudes revealed
• [32:02] 87% fixed cost—running out of money
• [47:33] “More income would just scale up the same mistakes”
• [60:11] Faith and tithing examined in crisis
• [79:29] Live budget cutting session—hard choices, especially about tithing
• [85:41] The emotional struggle and breakthrough on adjusting tithing
• [94:26]/[100:31] Updates: Sharing responsibility, coming under budget, change in communication
• [99:19] Reflections: Partnership, lessons learned

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Tone & Original Language

Throughout, Ramit is direct, challenging but compassionate, using humor to defuse defensiveness (“What am I, in the Stone Age right now?”). Alex and Jackie are vulnerable, honest—even when uncomfortable or embarrassed. Faith and hope are approached respectfully but tested against practical realities. The episode is rich in empathy, realism, and Ramit’s signature tough love.

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In Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in moving from blame, secrecy, and chaos toward transparency, partnership, and intentionality in financial management. Ramit demonstrates how couples can acknowledge childhood and faith influences, break destructive dynamic cycles, and build trust—using tools that focus on their shared values and dreams. The power of the episode lies in its raw depiction of pain, the genuine openness of Alex and Jackie, and their transformation from adversarial roles to true collaborators on the path to their Rich Life.

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For those wanting extra resources:

• Download Ramit’s Conscious Spending Plan
• Read his new book, Money for Couples

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Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

When I help people think about their rich lives, the main thing I often say is get more specific. People say, I want to travel more. Okay, this is your rich life. Get more specific. Are we talking about a month long honeymoon to Europe? Are we going to Disneyland for three days? Are we going on a trip to Bhutan? Get more specific. When you're on vacation, who are you bringing? Where are you staying? Are you eating anything in particular? These are all examples of things that that my students in my money coaching program have done as part of their rich lives. I want to share the specifics of how other people are spending their money in amazing ways and saving and investing so that you can finally get unstuck. In the program, you get access to a monthly money call where I dive into specific different topics like how to build your rich life, how to break down conscious spending plans, and then I answer your questions live. You also get access to the entire library of past calls, including how to spend money to create magical travel experiences, how to buy back your time, and how to find an extra thousand dollars per month. We have tons of virtual events coming up every month in Money Coaching and you can join right [e-mail] money coaching. That's iwt.com moneycoaching to instantly become a member.

Right now you trust each other when it comes to money?

[Alex]

Not completely.

[Ramit Sethi]

When was a example where you lost financial trust?

[Alex]

She was like, I gotta tell you something. And then she's like, I spent $5,000 on this coaching program that for me was like, whoa.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did you feel?

[Alex]

Just like the floor dropped out. Like it hurt really bad.

[Jackie]

The next morning I had an extreme panic attack and I thought that I was gonna die in my sleep because I had made that decision.

[Alex]

Like, I know that this, like, tracking system is archaic and doesn't work.

[Ramit Sethi]

You're at least not counting 20% of the stuff you're spending, which is why your savings account's dwindling, which is why you're going to be in a real financial problem in a matter of months.

[Jackie]

God was very much like, this is not what I have for you. We saw the miracles that happened to bring us out of that. That it's almost like, oh, it's okay if we're in debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hope is not a financial strategy. God is not a financial strategy. We need to make a plan. Alex and Jackie live in North Dakota.

He's 34, she's 33, and they are raising four, four children under the age of eight. Let's take a second to just acknowledge how amazing it Is that they could find a few hours to spend with me today. In his application, Alex said this about Jackie. In 2024, she took us $15,000 into debt for a photography business course so we could make more money. It took nine months and a lot of miracles to pay it off. And I've had a lot of trouble trusting her financially after that. Now there are layers here. Today you're going to hear how their faith shapes their money decisions. Sometimes as guidance, but other times as a crutch to avoid responsibility. And before we dive in, I want to hear from you in the comments. When was a time you lost trust with your partner over money? What happened and did you ever get it back? Today the question is whether they can stop repeating the same cycle and finally build a plan to that they will both follow. I'm about to open Alex and Jackie's conscious spending plan which breaks down their net worth income and where they spend their money. You can download and create your own CSP for free at iwt.com CSP Assets 300,000 Investments 98,000 Savings 16,000 Debt 224,000, which leaves them with a net worth of 189,000. Their gross income is 91,000. But here's the real problem. Their fixed costs are 87%. That means that almost every dollar they earn is already spoken for before they ever get to savings, investment, or guilt free spending. And with four young children, that is a very dangerous place to be. Can these two learn to trust each other and pull themselves out of this financial hole? Let's get into it right now.

Alex, in your application, you wrote something that really caught my eye. You wrote constant bickering about spending. Yeah, I track everything meticulously, but we still overspend. And I blame Jackie. What's going on there?

[Alex]

I'm able to track things and meticulously organize things and have a lot of trouble with what to do with that. And. And leading, you know, Or I guess, yeah, I guess like leading in a way that makes us both on the same team. Instead of me putting myself in this role where I feel like I have to be like a taskmaster or in charge or something.

[Ramit Sethi]

I see. What does it feel like to you to be in that role?

[Alex]

It feels like I'm a farmer running after like 20 chickens and nothing, nothing works. And it just feels like loud chaos.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who are the chickens in this example?

[Alex]

Well, I guess Jackie.

[Ramit Sethi]

And in what ways? Taking the metaphor and extending it, does it feel like you're chasing after her?

[Alex]

Yeah, I feel like I want to need reassurance, of, hey, I'm committed to living within the means that we have right now, and I'm aware of where we're at each month, and I care about that, and I'm taking that into account as I make purchases.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you feel you have that reassurance or no?

[Alex]

Most of the time, no. Sometimes, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Jackie, curious what your reaction to that is.

[Jackie]

I feel sad because, like, there is some element here where I do feel like he is in control and not in the bad way. It's just I've managed my money in a way that it's like, you know, oh, Alex is the tracker. Alex is in charge. Alex is the one, you know, And I forget to text him sometimes, a lot of the times. And now we're at the point where we're not even texting.

[Ramit Sethi]

What is texting? What does that have to do. Texting means what?

[Jackie]

Yeah, so that's how we track our budget. So whenever we spend something, we text each other how much we spent. So for at the grocery store, we just checked out. It's like, okay, I spent 200 at the grocery store. And we send it off.

[Ramit Sethi]

What?

[Jackie]

Because.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait a minute, hold on. What am I in the stone Age right now? Can you just pull up your phone? I just want to see, like, what do the texts say? I know you. You haven't done it in a while. That's fine. Just go back to the last time you did. I want to see what some of them say.

Okay.

I live for this. All right. What do you got, Jackie?

[Jackie]

$40 groceries, $307 groceries. $26 groceries, $21. Angelic Gardens, 162 Target groceries, 100 and like, $25. Like bird curriculum for homeschool.

[Ramit Sethi]

Bird What? Oh, you homeschool your kids?

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, and you bought a curriculum for how much?

[Jackie]

$115.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I notice you're avoiding eye contact as you say that. All right, how often do the two of you talk about money? And we can include these texts, but also talking via the text.

[Alex]

I mean, almost daily. And then talking about it. Gosh, I'd love to hear your perspective too, Jackie, but I think it's. I think it's like it was almost every day. Some sort of comment or something. Almost every day. Yeah. And then. But, like, in terms of a actual sit down, full conversation about it, we were meeting weekly to talk about budget vision for the family, homeschool, all the things. Every Friday. But then sometimes the kids would go down late and we wouldn't do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

So that's impressive, though. How long were those meetings that you used to have every Friday?

[Alex]

An hour to an hour and a half. And we weren't just talking money. We were talking beyond that. But money was a piece of.

[Jackie]

Was big vision. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cool. Wow, that sounds great. Honestly, very rare and extremely impressive. You trust each other when it comes to money?

[Alex]

Not completely, no.

[Jackie]

Jackie, I trust that he is not going to spend anything. So. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I mean, yeah, I have a follow up to that. Does not spending anything make you good at money?

[Jackie]

No. No. It's horrible. No. I'm like, no. But I think that's what I can count on him for. I can count on him not to spend money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, what can he count on you for?

[Jackie]

To always. To either not. Not know what the budget is like to overspend and to. Yeah. Not communicate about money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. That's pretty interesting. Alex, would you say that that is why you applied to speak to me today?

[Alex]

Yeah, definitely part of it. I definitely know that I've created an environment. Like, I know that this, like, tracking system is archaic and doesn't work right. That's why we stopped using it this month, especially after filling out the conscious spending plan. It was very clear, like, what. Why have I been wasting all this time? So everything that Jackie just said is part of it. But also I know that I'm 100% responsible and complicit in creating that environment in which she felt like that. Like, if I was having kinder, gentler conversations with her, I'm sure it would have went differently. And so I just want to be able to be more compassionate about it and more responsible.

[Ramit Sethi]

With the old system where Jackie, you would occasionally text the expenses that you had incurred, like groceries, etc, you would text Alex and then what would happen next?

[Jackie]

He would put them on our budget. He always updated the budget, especially before meetings.

[Ramit Sethi]

If we were to have a meeting, Alex, would you. How often would you edit the budget?

[Alex]

Three or four times a week.

[Ramit Sethi]

Three or four times a week. And how long would you say you spent per week on that budget?

[Alex]

Probably like an hour. A week. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hour a week. And how long have you maintained that budget for?

[Alex]

Yeah, since 2016.

[Jackie]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Almost 10 years.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have it? Can I look at it?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, throw it up.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love a good budget.

[Alex]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Whoa. Oh. Let me just describe what I see. Okay. This just popped up on my screen. I got to look. So first of all, I see a lot of numbers.

A lot.

I see all categories. There are from row seven, which is mortgage. Let's scroll down A bit Tie Zoom. Zoom is a category, by the way, for 17, 18amonth. I do see a lot of colors. So I see gray, red, and green. I can tell that some of them are just standard automated. Like Spotify doesn't change. Gym membership appears to be pretty much the same. But then we have these spiky ones which are in red and green, like groceries and gifts which cycle red degree. Am I reading this right, Alex?

[Alex]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Are there any other sheets on this? I'm very suspicious. Where's the rest of this stuff on here?

[Alex]

Yeah. So there's then it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, God. Oh. Savings and investing is another row. And then there's like, scroll down.

What is all this?

[Alex]

This is random stuff to remember. So, like if this category says kids activities, slash Jackie's business. If any category was like really high, I put like the large purchases here to remember why. Why it was like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is crazy. All right, hold on. Before we go on, I just want to say I knew it. I knew that it looked too simple. I was like a 10 year budget.

[Jackie]

This.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is like pretty simple.

Where's the rest?

And then we scroll down. There's all these weird notes.

And what's on the right.

I'm seeing some more numbers, sums.

[Alex]

So totals. And then, so then the goal was here's the. A budget of what we were trying to hit every month and did not hit ever.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh.

[Alex]

And so it was red if it didn't hit, fall within what we had thought it should, and green if it did.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love tracking something for an entire decade that I never actually win at really motivates me.

[Alex]

It's the worst.

[Ramit Sethi]

So what did you do differently?

After spending an hour a week for 520 weeks of this budget, we would.

[Alex]

Have conversations about things and try to make adjustments. So if groceries were really over, we would say, hey, how could we meal plan to do something different next month? Getting actual results from doing that was very hard for us.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, what's your take on this budget?

[Jackie]

Yeah, just to go back to what Alex said, even we meal planned in order to, you know, cope with the budget so that next month would be better. And the meal, it was higher. It was higher.

[Ramit Sethi]

We.

[Jackie]

Our systems are broken.

[Ramit Sethi]

The system you build is supposed to guide you, not make you feel overwhelmed and lost. But that's exactly what happened here. I don't think Alex is trying to control Jackie. He's trying to control chaos through a spreadsheet. 10 years of budgets over 500 hours and they still feel like they're drowning. Do you see why I hate budgets? How many people have come on this show totally overwhelmed by their financial situation, and yet they are meticulously tracking every freaking number? And I go, what's the point of this? And it's like they look up. They are visually startled. I don't know. I'm not sure. Why do you do it? I don't know. You do it because you crave control. And it's easier to control cell D46 than to actually zoom out and look at the real problem. And I am begging you, put your stupid spreadsheets away. This is exactly why I created the conscious spending plan. Tracking every little tiny detail does nothing for you. It feels good. I got to say this. I'm going to get in trouble from a lot of workout people. I don't give a. It's like people who go to these workout classes, and they're like, oh, I feel so good. I'm sweating. Okay, you might be sweating. I could make you sweat right now. Put you in a freaking airport at 72 degrees and walk around with your heavy backpack. You're sweating. That doesn't mean it's a good workout. It's the same thing with the way you manage your money. Just because you're tracking 5,000 numbers does not mean you're actually getting ahead. You might feel like you are, but I'm less interested in your feelings sometimes and more interested in objective progress. Hold on. Now I'm sweating. Oh, such a good workout, everybody. Ramit Sethi's sweating in his office. It's not a workout. Budgeting is backwards looking. Here's what you spent on Brussels sprouts. Look into my eyes. I do not care. The CSP says, here's what we care about. Here is where our next $100 is going to be allocated. If your system is just making you anxious and guilty and resentful, it's probably time to change the system. Now, I want to hear about why this behavior even started in the first place. When I started iwt, it was just me working out of a dorm room. Now, we have many employees. We work with contractors, some of whom are outside of the United States.

And it's not as simple as when.

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How long have the two of you been married?

[Alex]

It'll be 11 years in a couple of days.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cool. Congrats. That's awesome. So before kids, did you like text each other expenses?

[Alex]

No. So we didn't do that. I don't know what do you remember Jackie, when we started that, that was the last couple years.

[Jackie]

I think I didn't know how much money I, I, I've never known, like, I don't, I don't think I knew how much money we had in our budget during that time.

[Ramit Sethi]

You didn't talk about money in the.

[Alex]

Beginning, not back then?

[Jackie]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

What was the first time you substantively talked about family finances?

[Alex]

The first time I remember was. So let's see. We got married in 2014, 2015. We. I quit my job, and I was the sole provider, and we. From a financial standpoint, and we were a couple hundred dollars away from running out of money completely. And I was looking at our account on my phone, and we were in bed, and I turned over to Jackie and said, our rent's due in, I don't remember, 15 days. We have $300. What are we going to do? And she looked at me and she laughed and said, well, there's nothing we can do except for go apply for jobs and go make some money. And the next day, she applied for a bunch of jobs and got five job offers and then got a job at a coffee shop and started making money, like, that week.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow.

What do you make of that, Alex? What do you make of Jackie's response and her reaction?

[Alex]

Man, she just doesn't have the, like, stress that I have and the, like, need for control that I have. And I admire that freedom and secretly wish that I could be like that. But I also don't see how if both of us were like that, how it would work.

[Ramit Sethi]

What about you, Jackie, hearing that story, reflecting back, what do you notice about your reaction?

[Jackie]

I haven't been a steward of my finances and, like, having goals are like, my gold. Financial goals have just been kind of pie in the sky dreams and haven't been, like, you know, intangible reality being able to be measured.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's interesting. My reaction is a little different. Like, okay, I'm sure what you're saying, both of you is true, but from that specific story, the fact that, Alex, you were like, hey, we're running out of money. I don't know how we're going to pay rent. And Jackie's like, right, well, we gotta find a job. I'll go out. And then she goes out and gets one tomorrow. To me, that is a sign of somebody who's pretty resourceful. And I think, especially when you're married, you want to know that you can count on your partner. They are going to step up and know what needs to be done and just do it. And to me, that is a great example of a resourceful partner.

[Alex]

Absolutely. I really admire that about her. And. And really that that story actually makes me happy. Like, I feel really good hearing that story.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, yeah, okay, Alex, when was a example where you lost financial trust in Jackie?

[Alex]

Yep. So a couple Years ago, she had some dreams of, like, entrepreneurial dreams, and so she signed up for a coaching program for a third of our. What we had in savings, so it was $5,000. And signed up for that while I was at work. And then I came home, drove, pulled in the garage, got out of the car, and she was like, I gotta tell you something. And then she's like, I spent five. I remember if it was five or six or something. Thousand dollars on this coaching program, you know? And I don't remember what you said after that, but that. That, for me was like, whoa.

[Ramit Sethi]

How did you feel when you heard that?

[Alex]

Yeah, just like, the floor dropped out. Like, whoa. I. I didn't know you could do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like.

Like, I didn't know you could do that. That's cool. Or something else.

[Alex]

No, like, betrayed. Yeah, betrayed. Like, basically, like, it hurt really bad. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you ever use that word and tell Jackie that before now?

[Alex]

I'm not sure.

[Jackie]

Yeah, I think I got. Yeah, I definitely got that. The next morning, I had an extreme panic attack, and I thought that I was going to die in my sleep because I had made that decision.

[Ramit Sethi]

Mm.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What happened next?

[Alex]

I was upset and emotionally affected by that for a while. For months, I think.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you ever ask her to cancel the coaching program?

[Alex]

Yeah, I did.

[Ramit Sethi]

What happened?

[Alex]

She said she couldn't.

[Jackie]

I said, no. I said I couldn't because I was so depressed. I was. You know, we had had three children at the time. We lived far away from around the middle of nowhere. You know, my. All my friends are really new, but I just felt so depressed, so without direction, so not able to function as a human being. And I needed someone who, you know, was outside of it all to give me just a broader perspective.

[Ramit Sethi]

So when you. When you told him, I can't cancel it, were you saying, I can't cancel it because I need this coaching program right now, or I can't cancel it because it's literally not cancelable?

[Jackie]

I can't cancel it because I need this right now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Alex, did you understand that at the time? No.

[Alex]

I thought it was not cancelable. As in, like, they. No refunds. Can't cancel it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you just learn that just now?

[Alex]

That was the clearest I've ever heard it said. And I. I don't. I actually don't think she's wrong about that. Like, it ended up being a really good thing for us because aside from the trust piece of it, it ended up being a good thing for us because we had to have more conversations that Were hard, and I think that was a good thing.

[Jackie]

I don't think he knew at the time. How. How he. You. Yeah. You didn't know how deeply depressed I was? I don't even think I knew.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did the coaching program work?

[Jackie]

Yeah, it. It didn't work. Why? I mean, I signed up for it in order to. For our finances, but what I got was just that, like, Jesus loves me. I don't even know how to explain it, but, like, my coach was more spiritual, and it was exactly what I needed for the whole year.

[Ramit Sethi]

What.

What type. Of course. What type of coaching was it?

[Jackie]

Tony Robbins coaching.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so. And, like, when you say, I originally signed up for our finances, what do you mean by that?

[Jackie]

One of the goals that, you know, that they had you fill out on. On the intake form was, what's your goal? And I was like, oh, I want to be able to make $40,000 this year. That way I can contribute to our family. Alex doesn't have to stress anymore, you know, about money. I don't have to stress anymore about money, and I can become a new person, you know?

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's interesting. And since then, just to stick on the earnings part of it, that was several years ago. Have you earned $40,000 a year?

[Jackie]

No. No, I have not.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I understand that programs and coaching can often work in unexpected ways. Like, I've had people join my earnable business program, and then they realize, like, I actually don't want to start a business. I actually find that really valuable. You know, better to know that now spend a few thousand bucks than to go down two years of heartache. But I also think you gotta be able to afford these things, and you certainly have to be able to talk to a partner about a $5,000 purchase.

There are two key things here that.

I want to address.

First, did you catch when Jackie said she was depressed? I really paid very close attention to that. We throw that word around a lot. I'm so depressed. But real depression is extremely serious. Jackie said she felt like she could not function, isolated, lost. And instead of talking about it, she signed up for a $5,000 coaching program. And then she told Alex after the money was gone, if you are listening and you felt like that, like you're drowning, directionless, like you have no energy to do anything, then I would highly encourage you to talk to a therapist. Get the support you need before the damage becomes even harder to undo. Now I want to talk about that $5,000 course. Jackie admits that she spent the money because she felt lost. However, she Was able to do that because she and Alex did not have an agreed upon number that either of them could spend without discussion. And it also feels like a little act of rebellion by Jackie, too. Oh, you want me to text you every time I spend money? You need to have control. Well, take this. Nobody wants to live their entire life asking permission, especially not from their spouse. There is a simple fix here. Set up a clear spending threshold. If you are below that number at the end of the month, amazing. If you are above that number, well, first of all, don't get above it. But if you do, then it is your responsibility to bring it up and come up with a plan going forward. And if necessary, discuss why you might want to adjust that number overall. The point is, you have to start somewhere more nuanced than simply spend as little as possible.

If I say the word money, how do both of you feel about it?

[Jackie]

Jackie, in this moment? Sad.

[Ramit Sethi]

You feel sad about money? How come?

[Jackie]

Because I don't have enough to give and live the life that I want to live. It's. It's hard. It's not. It's. It's a point of contention in me. And it's been a point of contention in me for. I mean, essentially since that time where I decided, like, I was going to try to, like, hustle and like, you know, and just also being super dishonest about what I wanted to do. You know, it's like I wanted to. I mean, my dream job, right, is to be a songwriter. And yet when I put all of my energy into photography, it was not fulfilling at all.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, Yeah, I hear that there's, like, there's a sorrow in looking at some of the choices that we made. Sometimes the results that they got us, sometimes that we made a choice out of fear instead of what we really wanted to do. I can understand why even bringing up the word money can make you instantly sad. Okay, Alex, how about you? When I say the word money, how do you feel?

[Alex]

Like, dizzy, dizzying, confused and conflicted. Feel like I should want to make a ton more money or care about money a lot, but my emotions don't match that. Like, my emotions feel kind of resigned.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, resigned. That's interesting. I wouldn't have expected you to say that. I would have expected the opposite. I would have thought you would have said, I. I feel like I shouldn't care about money, but I actually do. And I say that because your behavior of tracking money for a decade kind of communicates that it's very hard for people to spend an hour A week for a long time on something they.

Don'T really care about.

What do you make of that?

[Alex]

Yeah, I. I'm. I'm open to that, for sure. It. It feels like that I liked the system, though, and not the money piece of it that I like. Just fiddling around with, like, systems, if you can even call that a system.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's a hobby. Yeah, I think I understand a bit. Let's take a look at the csp. Jackie, I would like you to read the word in bold and then the full number next to it for this entire box, please.

[Jackie]

Okay. We have assets, $300,000, investments, $98,358, savings, 16,000 and debt, $224,953. Total net worth is $189,405.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What do you think about those numbers, Jackie?

[Jackie]

There's regret tied into it. I still think there's a lot of regret tied into these numbers. So that's how I feel.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. What regret?

[Jackie]

Just, you know, our first decisions, like me not getting a job right away.

[Ramit Sethi]

You feel like it could be more had you done that?

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Alex]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Alex, how do you feel about those numbers?

[Alex]

Unsure. Just unsure of whether they're good, bad, what? Like what? How it matters. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, I really appreciate the honesty in your answers because I think what you both just told me is actually how pretty much 99% of Americans feel about their numbers. First of all, they don't even know what their net worth numbers are. These are four numbers. Assets, investment, savings, and debt. You just add them all up, make sure you subtract the debt, and you have your total net worth. The vast majority of people have never done this. So that's part one. Part two is. All right, what the hell does this mean we need to turn money into meaning? Just seeing a number, Whether it's negative 52,000 189,000 or 1.8 million, what does it mean? We are not taught to think about that, and so we just sort of ignore it. Like the way, Jackie, did you know your first word was about regret? You kind of went back into this story. I'm like, let's talk about the numbers. But numbers are just numbers to us. They actually don't really change the way we feel unless we are trained on how to think and feel about them. Okay, all right, let's keep going here. Let's talk about income. Alex, can you give me the combined gross monthly income, please?

[Alex]

Yes. 7,000, 664.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so the household income Which I think is your income exclusively. Right, Alex? Okay.

[Alex]

At this point, yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

$91,968 per year. And then let's go down to big number on this fixed cost. What's that number?

[Alex]

87%. 4,951.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so 87% of your take home pay is spent on fixed costs. That's it. That's the ball game. When you're at 87%, I never even need to meet you. I can already tell you're stressed out about money. So let's take a look at the rest of the CSP and see how it plays out. Investments are at 2%. That's $90 a month in post tax with a 401k contribution of $460 per month. All right, savings at zero. And your savings amount in the bank is 16,000, which is about. About three months of expenses, roughly. Okay. Three months of fixed cost. And then finally down to guilt free spending. We are at 11% or $651 a month. Is that number true?

[Alex]

It's not what we're. We're spending way more than that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Exactly. Okay, that's what I thought. So then if we go back up, you're in debt. So I want to ask about the quality of that debt. What is this? $224,000 in debt? Break it down for me.

[Alex]

Yep. Everything in that is the mortgage, except for we owe 5,000 on our car.

[Ramit Sethi]

On your credit card?

[Alex]

No, to a family member who loaned us money with no interest for the car.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, yeah.

[Alex]

No credit card debt.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, so you.

Hold on. You're telling me you spend way more than $651 a month? Where's the money come from?

[Alex]

Our savings. It just goes down every month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ah, you're drawing from your savings, like each month?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

When did your savings used to be at. At the peak.

[Alex]

At the peak, right before we bought our house, we had 35,000 in there.

[Ramit Sethi]

How long until you run out of savings?

[Alex]

Right? I haven't. I haven't ran that calculation, but it would eventually be a couple of years, maybe sooner.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Jackie, what do you think about this?

[Jackie]

I feel like my attitude is the same as that time. It's like, okay, well, let's go make money. You know, Like, I'm like, okay, let's be resourceful. Okay, well, what are we doing? Like, that's why we're. That's why we're having meetings, so that we can, you know, really get a bigger vision.

[Ramit Sethi]

With Alex and Jackie. You can see the pattern. They are reactive instead of proactive. Their fixed costs are too high, their savings are shrinking every month, and when things go wrong they retreat into spreadsheets and meetings. It's all so dreary. What they really need is a system to get them off the hamster wheel. And if you are in the same spot, if you're tracking every dollar, you're having endless money talks that just feel so negative and nothing's really changing. You don't have to figure it out alone. I cover exactly how to build a real system and inside our Money Coaching program, you can sign [e-mail] moneycoaching when I was growing up I did not know anything about nutrition. I didn't know the word protein until I went to college. Now I have learned a lot more about nutrition. I love understanding my macros and adjusting them depending on my goals especially so I don't have to think about it now. There are lots of ways to do this. You can do it on your own. You can get a chef. For a lot of people that sweet spot is Factor. Factor is a chef crafted dietitian approved meal delivery service that helps you eat well without wasting time. It's delivered right to your door Ready to eat and they're perfect for you when you are too busy or too tired to cook, but you still want something that's healthy and nutritious. They have lots of different options including Mediterranean Keto, Protein plus and GLP Friendly meals. Their variety is good. You're not stuck eating plain chicken and rice every day just to hit your macros. And 97% of customers say that Factor has helped them live healthier lives. And if I needed healthier ready made meals, I would give them a shot. Eat smart at factor meals.com/ramit50off and use code ramit50off to get 50% off your first box plus free breakfast for one year. That's code ramit50off@ Factor meals.com for 50% off your first box plus Free breakfast for one year. Get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with Factor Offer only valid for new Factor customers with code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Okay, you know Black Friday and Cyber Monday are coming up. You're going to see a bunch of 50% off sales for new services. Sounds great until you realize three months, six months, nine months down the road you signed up for a bunch of subscriptions that you're not even using anymore. So my suggestion is don't fall for it. You don't need to sign up for subscriptions just because you get A discount. Instead, use Rocket Money, which will cancel your unwanted subscriptions. Right now, Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Just link your accounts to start and it lays everything out. Your subscriptions, your bills, your due dates. You can customize it with your conscious spending plan, like a lot of our readers do. Rocket Money has saved users over $2.5 billion, including over $880 million in canceled subscriptions alone. Their 10 million members save up to $740 a year when they use all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Ramit Today, that's RocketMoney.com Ramit RocketMoney.com.

Right now you make 91,000 bucks and you are spending more than you make every month. Let's say you made $150,000 a year. Would it change the financial dynamics that we see here?

[Jackie]

100%. Tell me how we would have guilt for spending with groceries. I feel like every month there's this expectation that it's less than, you know, 1400 or 1300, however much you know, there's that threshold, and it's just not like it really is just around that number each month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Jackie]

And, you know, so that wouldn't be that much, but then we would have the freedom to, you know, redo some of the parts of the house that really stress us out and, you know, that, like, feel like everything would be organized in a. In a better way. And I feel like right now things are just disorganized because we have this mindset that we don't have enough money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait a minute, hold on. I asked if you make 150k, would it change? You were like, absolutely, yes. I was like, how? And then you proceeded to tell me all the ways that you would spend more money. We would spend more on groceries. We would spend more on home renovations.

And.

And like, by the way, things would somehow be organized somehow some way. Isn't this the problem? If they're not organized at 91, how are they going to magically be organized at 150?

[Jackie]

Well, I guess we could set a higher savings budget, I guess.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's take a look. Net income or take home pay after taxes and pre tax withdrawals. $5,692 a month. Your mortgage is $1,567. Your car payment is $370. Okay. Debt zero kind of interesting though. Even though you have $5,000 owed to family, you're not making payments on that, right?

[Alex]

Oh, I put that in the wrong category then. So 200amonth is going towards that, and then the. From that 370. So then 170 is gas. I wasn't sure where to put all that stuff.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, that's. Let me just fix it. All right, fine. That's fine. Groceries at $1,550 a month. Okay. Clothes at 100, phone at 148, tithing at $569 a month, and subscriptions at $123 a month. What do you all think about those fixed costs?

[Alex]

Groceries sticks out to me as being really high. We have four kids, but still, it feels pretty high.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Jackie.

[Jackie]

I mean, groceries is as much as our mortgage.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's true. Groceries and your mortgage are the same. Yeah. What else? Like if you just zoom out, how do you feel about this, the overall way that you are spending your fixed costs?

[Jackie]

Well, I don't like the result.

[Ramit Sethi]

Keep going.

[Jackie]

Because of the tension that it's creating in our.

[Ramit Sethi]

In our marriage, you had mentioned earlier, you know, we could save more. It's kind of unclear to me where you would get the money to save more.

[Jackie]

Right. I think that's where it was like, oh, if we made 150k, we would have more to save more.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, I think that's probably true. You would probably be able to save a little bit more, but my guess is you would end up spending just as much.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you have a list of things, Jackie, that you want to buy when you're financially able to.

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's on that list?

[Jackie]

Yeah, I think it would be just a lot more giving, like being able to maybe even open up a storefront or like even. I mean, something small is like, you know, having the money to record music and.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Alex, do you have a similar list?

[Alex]

Not. Not really. Yeah, not really.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's exactly what I suspected. Alex doesn't have a list because he doesn't dream. He's just a mechanic. He's a money mechanic. Just turning the wrench. But it's an interesting. You know, some people are like, I want to be able to take this type of vacation. Didn't hear that from you, Jackie. I did hear I want to be.

Able to give more.

That's interesting. And maybe I want to be able to spend some on my hobbies, songwriting, things like that. Interesting. What happens in the guilt free spending? It says 600 and something dollars 651. What do y' all spend each month on?

[Jackie]

Discretionary purchases, Curriculum, Homeschool curriculum, Kids extracurricular activities. Whether that's like homeschool P.E. or, you know, co ops or music or swim lessons.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is there a limit on how much you spend on for kids? No, no limit. But there's a limit on a lot of other stuff. Huh?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Oh, like, did we assign a limit? Yes, but it's arbitrary because we don't follow it.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's okay. That's. That's common. But just the idea of like, can you imagine saying no to something for kids? Something that they really want or that you think they really need for financial reasons? I can, yeah. Would you do it?

[Alex]

I would.

[Jackie]

You would?

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, Would you?

[Jackie]

I mean, no. It's been. I think we've talked about, you know, music is a. Is a very big expense. And I don't know, Alex, where that falls. Where, where does that fall? Like in the budget.

[Alex]

Oh, like on our system?

[Jackie]

Yeah, on our system.

[Alex]

Kids activities.

[Ramit Sethi]

Throw that up, Alex. Let's just look at that for a second again. Yeah, let's look at the single source of truth for the last 10 years. Will be good. Quite an interesting swing here. Some months it's $1,000, other months it's $120. So if I had to guess, I'm guessing this is like an average of 600 bucks a month just for kids activities. All right, hold on, hold on a second. Miscellaneous. Holy. $398 in a month. $409. $978. 904. What's miscellaneous mean?

[Jackie]

Let's look at the footnotes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, these are actually coming in useful even though I made fun of them for like 10 minutes straight.

[Alex]

Yeah. Oh, we bought a new couch, a used couch. Garden stuff. Hotel for. Oh, for kids activities.

[Ramit Sethi]

Keep on the miscellaneous. What else are y' all spending on miscellaneous?

[Alex]

Kids birthdays.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, that's a good one. Homeschool curriculum. Plants for the yard.

[Alex]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Dodgers game, zoo membership. Okay, these are all like normal family expenses. I get it. But what I notice is there is no strategy. It's just random stuff. And, and when you're making, you know, a good income. $91,000. Those things do add up. They really add up because we're not talking about one or two things. We're talking about like every month, there's at least $1,000 of expenses that are not accounted for here. And you're net income, your take home pay is 5,600 bucks per month. You're at least not counting 20% of the stuff you're spending, which is why your savings accounts dwindling, which is why you're going to be in a real financial problem in a matter of months. Jackie.

[Jackie]

Oh, no.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't know. I.

[Jackie]

This. See, I don't like that. This excites me. I don't like that this excites me. Why does this excite me? Because then I'm like, now we have to go do something. Whereas, like, Alex, you know, I think that, you know, it's hard when I want to make more money and you don't care about money, but I feel like I can't care about money. But I do care about money. But then I work at home, and I'm like, I. You know, I stay at home. I don't work at home. I stay at home, but it's like, should I be working? And then it's like, well, I don't want to work, so I want to be with the kids. I don't know. It's just so.

[Ramit Sethi]

That was interesting.

[Jackie]

Sorry. Sorry. I kind of went on a rant.

[Ramit Sethi]

Does that happen a lot, this kind of spinning about money? Or is it only now that we are looking at it?

[Jackie]

Now that we're looking at it?

[Ramit Sethi]

Alex, have you ever wanted Jackie to look at the budget that you kept?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you ask her to?

[Alex]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

What'd she say?

[Alex]

Sometimes she'll look at it, and sometimes I. I can't even think about it, which is kind of sad. I actually don't even know. It doesn't. It hasn't resulted in us really looking at it closely.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, what'd you do when he asked.

[Jackie]

You to look at it the last time? I was willing to download the. The app so that I can see how much money we have in our bank account before I spend.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, how much you have in your checking account? Right?

[Jackie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so what does that tell you? Like, it's 200 or 4,000. Like, what does that tell you?

[Jackie]

It says, you know, whether or not I can spend XYZ on groceries. I mean, when I'm. If I'm out buying groceries.

[Ramit Sethi]

But what if it says 200 bucks in the checking account and you have, like, 500 bucks of groceries? What are you going to do then?

[Jackie]

Go put some back.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I tell you something? I. I understand the dynamic. If you were poor, I understand that, like, when. When people are truly poor, they actually have to know how much they have in their checking account, and they are literally putting stuff back on the shelves because the money is just not there. You'll make $91,000 a year. I don't think looking at your checking account to gather information about your financial situation is the right level you should be operating at. You actually have to be up leveling in the way you think about it. That's like thinking about net worth, thinking about investments, fixed costs. Like it's as simple as what's on the sheet, but it's more complex than how much you have in your checking account. To put it another way, I would never allow myself to get to the point where I have to put a bag of cookies back onto the shelf. That needs to be sorted out.

Months prior, when I asked Alex and Jackie if making 150,000 would change everything, they said yes instantly. Yeah, nice fantasy.

That's not going to happen.

All of us believe that more income will magically solve our money problems. But in reality, they would probably just.

Scale up the same mistakes.

More groceries, more hobbies, more stuff for the kids, more money, same problems. And they even know it. Jackie admits that she gets excited by a crisis because it forces her to act. Now, I used to feel like that when it came time to write an essay because it was due the next day in college. That's kind of funny when you're 20 years old. It's not so funny when you have children at home and you're talking about 80 something percent of your net income going to fixed costs. And she spins about whether she should work or stay home or just hide from money altogether. It's classic avoider behavior. And meanwhile, Alex has been attempting to engage over a spreadsheet for 10 years. A spreadsheet she won't even look at. You know, I talk about this in chapter six of Money for Couples, my new book. This is the Chaser Avoider Dynamic. It is exactly as it sounds. One partner chases, the other avoids, and both of them end up exhausted, basically in exactly the same places where they started. If you're going to spend time agonizing about money, worrying about money, stressing about money, my feeling is you might as well actually get some results. It's like those little annoying kids who sit there and they pretend to brush their teeth. They don't actually brush. I mean, you're standing in front of the freaking sink. You might as well just brush your dirty little teeth. Get that filthy plaque off it. I'm not going to name who, but I was taking care of some little kids. My limited experience with kids, I did not realize they lie about brushing their teeth.

So we're like, all right, Go brush your teeth. They're like, yeah, I brushed my teeth.

And then I was like, what's this.

Antenna going up in the back of my head?

I was like, let me smell your breath. A phrase, by the way, that I have not uttered in about 35 years. I just had this intuitive feeling.

So intuitive.

I smelled that like it was from hell. I said, what the. I forgot that kids lie about brushing their teeth. I sent them straight back in there. Go back in there. Don't come out for 10 minutes. Every parent on this podcast.

I really feel for you.

I truly do.

Some disgusting happening in bathrooms across America.

All right, now back to Alex and Jackie. The truth is, unless they break this cycle, they're going to be having the same fights ten years from now.

I'm not going to allow that.

I want to find out where their relationships with money came from right after this break. Okay, do me a favor, open up your to do list right now. What are the things that have been on there for months? Is it booking your next dental appointment? Is it checking up on your insurance deductible? Hate that. Or is it actually getting your estate plan in order? Well, good news. I can help you with the last one right now. In less than an hour, you can have peace of mind that your estate planning is sorted with the help of this episode sponsor, Trust and Will. I recommend Trust and Will because they make estate planning easy. No scheduling appointments or digging through legal forms. Just go online, answer some simple questions.

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Alex, what do you remember your family saying? About money when you were growing up?

[Alex]

Sure. We didn't talk about it a ton. I remember being told to never, like if I've ever put anything on a credit card to pay it off that same month and never carry credit card debt. I remember When I was 15, my first job was a busser and I made tips. So I put everything into my savings and I only spent tips. And so in my head, if I'm not saving everything, it's not enough. But that's not what. My parents never said that. But that was what I sort of picked up from that job because I did that when I was 15.

[Ramit Sethi]

And what'd your parents do?

[Alex]

My dad was in the ins. He worked for an insurance company and was in like sales management. My mom was a kindergarten teacher.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, got it, got it. Were they religious? Yeah, they were. Okay. And you two are both religious? Correct. I saw the tithing.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Cool.

[Ramit Sethi]

What'd they teach you about money besides save and pay off debt?

[Alex]

Yep. Always give 10%, be faithful with that, no matter what, and you'll. It will pay off.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Alex]

That was pretty much it. I mean, I give if you can and help. Help people out. They were really good about that.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then after you graduated, you got a series of jobs?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What'd you do with the money?

[Alex]

At first we were saving a lot, and then we had two times where we. It went. It dwindled. The first time was because of quitting that job basically for mental health reasons. Having no income for six months, blowing 16 grand in six months.

[Ramit Sethi]

A lot of parallels. You had money, you saved it, you only spent the tip. And then something happened. After accumulating all this money, you spent it down. Then it happened again. Here we are again. It's at least the third time. What do you make of that?

[Alex]

Yeah, there. I don't know where it came from, but there must be something stuck in there about this. Is the like, level of person I am or some amount of worth tied into that? Or like. Yeah, I don't know. Like, it's hard. Cuz I feel like I'm grateful for how much I make and how much we have. And I just, I want to steward it better. I. I don't know. It's all a tangled mess. That's like as far as I. I got.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. All right. What about for you, Jackie? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up?

[Jackie]

A lot of it. You know, my mom being a single parent from. In my elementary years. And it was like, we don't have the Money or, you know, we. We took, I think one family vacation and it was like the most special time ever. But yeah, we just. We didn't have the money to do or to have the things that I. That I wanted. Even, you know, when my mom got remarried, it was. The conversation was, you know, we're not going to buy those clothes. Those are too expensive. Or we're not gonna, we're not gonna do that. And yeah, but. But the focus, you know, but we spent money on other things. Like we ate out very regularly, so the money was there. It's just that our values were different.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, so you get older. Jackie, did you go to college?

[Jackie]

Yes. Yeah. Alex and I met in college.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, cool. Okay. How did you pay for college?

[Jackie]

My parents paid for college and. Well, the first quarter I paid for it because I had actually run away from home at that point. And so all the money that I had saved since I was 16 to 18 had been. Had gone into a bank account. And when I ran away from home, I took that money and I decided that I was going to pay for my first quarter of college and then see what happened. Basically just living on faith. I didn't really have a plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you mind my asking, why did you run away?

[Jackie]

Yeah, I ran away because I didn't feel like I could talk about my feelings and that they would be heard or recepted.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your family?

[Jackie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

But then one quarter later, your parents began paying for your college. How did that happen?

[Jackie]

We met and. And there were apologies made and so I think there was just like a. You know, this was the plan from the beginning. Like they had already planned to send pay for me to go to college. So, you know, it was like, okay, let's just resume. Resume the plan.

[Ramit Sethi]

What is your relationship like with your parents now?

[Jackie]

With my mom, it's good. I feel like there's been a lot of forgiveness present, so that's been good.

[Ramit Sethi]

And your dad?

[Jackie]

My dad actually just passed away two months ago, so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[Jackie]

Yeah, yeah, that's okay. So just like if he was like my best friend, so just like. And he was the money guy. At the same time, looking at his lifestyle, like if he would have shared his knowledge, you know, he would have been able to make more. But he was so. He was just such a good, like, funny, really good at his job, really a go getter, very resourceful. He started working for an RV business about three years ago, and he just took it to number three in Yuma, Arizona last year. And I was just so proud of him, you know, like, he just like had a strong work ethic. But whenever it came to, like, dad, like, how do I do these systems? Or like, will you teach me? Like, you know, he was just so secretive about it. He's like, I can't tell you the secrets. Like, I can't. Like, what do you mean he didn't share? Like, he didn't share how he did it. He didn't share. Like, I would always make comments like, dad, I should just come down and be your apprentice for like a year. Like, I would love to do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

What did he say when you told him you want to apprentice with him?

[Jackie]

He was like, he just laughed it off. He just, you know, he always held me at an arm's length away like he just didn't know how to be present with me.

[Ramit Sethi]

That is confusing and, yeah, sad and beautiful all at the same time. I really appreciate you sharing that. Sorry for your loss.

[Jackie]

Thank you.

[Ramit Sethi]

Notice the pattern here.

Alex was told, save tithe, never carry credit card debt. Jackie was told, we don't have the money for that. And Jackie's dad was the money guy. He was resourceful and successful, but secretive. He never shared what he actually did. You know, when parents don't openly talk about money, it really disadvantages their kids. You leave them to guess. And the truth is kids usually get it wrong. Like Jackie, for example. She learned that money is contradictory and confusing. Sometimes it's scarce, sometimes it's plentiful, but it is never explained. You'd be amazed how many parents don't.

Talk to their kids about money.

Oh, they have all kinds of convenient reasons why we want to let kids be kids. That's for adults. Those are just excuses. The real truth is most parents don't even understand money themselves. So how can they ever teach their kids about money? Their lack of money education to their kids is more shame than strategy.

And I'm going to say something direct.

To the parents here, coming from a non parent. Fix this. This is so important that if you don't improve your own relationship with money and you and your partner's relationship with money and then educate your, you are leaving them at a lifelong disadvantage. This is not like, oh, I never taught my kid how to ski or how to swim in a current. No money affects them every single week of their lives. Fix it. Alex and Jackie never got that education, which is why today they are still chasing and avoiding, still replaying those childhood money scripts. And you can see exactly how those scripts are shaping their relationship right now.

When you Both. Think about the way that you were raised with money, with your families, from being young. What lessons do you think you're bringing from your childhood into this relationship with money?

[Alex]

I mean, for me, definitely the 10 tithing every month, regardless of what the circumstances are. I don't think I've ever missed that, ever. That's. And then having, like an extreme aversion to debt. I think those are the two things that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not that extreme. You have debt, right?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right.

[Alex]

So talking out of two sides of my mouth, I. It feels uncomfortable. And I feel uncomfortable about it every time I think about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Jackie.

[Jackie]

But to speak to that too, Alex, I think, like, because we were in debt and we saw the miracles that happened to bring us out of that, that it's almost like, oh, it's okay if we're in debt. Like, did you. Do you feel like you budged a little bit or compromised in this area of debt?

[Ramit Sethi]

What, what, what's this miracle we're talking about?

[Jackie]

I purchased another program after the Tony Roberts program.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Jackie]

And it was $16,000 instead of $5,000. And I did ask Alex this time.

[Ramit Sethi]

What kind of program was this?

[Jackie]

It was a photography business. Essentially. Going back to school to get your studio certificate, kind of.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, so you spent 16,000 and then.

[Jackie]

And then I made 6,000 that year.

[Alex]

Huh.

[Jackie]

And so I didn't make the money back. And so we had $9,000 in that we owed on our credit card in November, and we knew that it was going to hit again in April. So we were like, okay, we have, you know, five months to make this money. What are we going to do? And so that's when we started meeting regularly and money just started showing up. Like, we had a random per person give us an envelope of $1,000 at church. We had. We got into a car accident that paid us $1,200. And nobody was hurt, no one was injured. You know, at that time, I gave up my photography business. You know, like, I had a heart to heart with God. It was like God was very much like, you need to, like, this is not what I have for you. And so I laid that down and, like, I just saw how much like, he loves me and cares about us. And by the grace of God, it, like we made $9,000. And I could not tell you how that happened.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait, that's what I want to know. Where's the rest of the.

[Jackie]

The church wanted to hire me to redo their website and work for them. So that was a thousand dollars a month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Jackie]

So that's $5,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's. That's great. That's impressive. So what was your takeaway from that experience? Going from November to April?

[Jackie]

I just felt so supported. Like, I was just like, man, like, we can, like, when we put our. When we come together and put our, you know, have an intention and a goal, like, it can happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Alex, what was your takeaway from that experience?

[Alex]

Grateful. But I also felt like it was really lucky.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Gratitude. And like, wow, we were really lucky. Like, that was. That was close.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, you agree?

[Jackie]

Yeah. Yeah. There was this element of, like, wow. Like, God really supported us. Like, I don't. Like. Yeah. Like, it wasn't. It felt otherworldly. Like, it wasn't me.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm asking and I'm probing here, because you came to talk to me, not, for example, somebody who works in the church and probably talks about money. You came to me. And so while I appreciate your religious beliefs, for me, hope is not a financial strategy.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

God is not a financial strategy. Right. In my view and the way that I work and in my material, we need to make a plan. And if other things happen that we cannot explain, I'll accept them. Great. But I don't need them. I need my plan. And I'm going to work the plan and I'm going to make. I'm going to engineer a rich life for myself and for my family. That is my approach. How do you both feel about that? I just want to check in right now. Alex is nodding his head.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie's pausing and smiling and thinking carefully about her next words. Go ahead. You don't have to walk on eggshells. Say what you feel.

[Jackie]

No, I think I've. I've had a lot of my decisions are more like. Are conflated with God. And I've. And people have told me that I've gotten that before where it's just like, I think you have religion and, like, morality and XYZ conflated. Like, it's not. It's not related.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, and how do you receive that feedback?

[Jackie]

I'm like, I don't know what that means. Like, that's great. I'm glad that you see that. But if you have any more insight to show me that, I would appreciate that.

[Ramit Sethi]

I do. I mean, that's interesting that you've received that feedback. Here's my take. Two of you are religious and a lot of religion based on faith. What? What Religious. What religion are you?

[Alex]

Christian?

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Christianity.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. So, you know, a lot of religion based on faith. Totally get it and great. When it comes to money, you'll often see an intersection between dreamers and faith. Dreamers, one of the four money types in Money for Couples. You know, dreamers will use words like if we are good people, God will provide. They'll, they'll sometimes say things like, I don't want to work a 9 to 5, I'm not into that. They will look for alternative types of income streams, often finding themselves in things like MLMs, crypto schemes, things like that. They often believe that success is just one gig away or one deal away. And if we just get this one thing, if we just increase our income to 150k, like problem solved, we can pay off the debt. Dreamers don't usually like to engage about money. And I find it very interesting that you, you have shown me some really strong clues that you will engage about money. You're like, hey, break it down for me or I'm getting excited or oh, we can't make the payment, got to find a job like, whoa. So you have this interesting dichotomy, but I am almost certain that your faith informs the way you see money.

If we do the right thing, if.

We sit down, we will be provided for.

Maybe I hope that's true, but I.

Can'T depend on that. I need to make a plan and I need to make sure that even if nothing external happens to us, this plan works. How does that strike you?

[Jackie]

Yeah, I mean that it feels very secure.

[Ramit Sethi]

Whoa, what do you mean by that?

[Jackie]

Well, inside of hoping, it's like there's a lot of reliance on God and while I love relying on God, I would love to rely on God for other things and not financial security.

[Ramit Sethi]

Love it. Maybe God needs to take a break from the financial advising. He's got other things to worry about right now.

Listen closely to Alex and Jackie's story. They talk about miracles and luck and envelopes of cash at church. But in reality they can only afford to talk like this because they have a built in bailout, an interest free loan from Alex's family. This is the hidden cost of relying on miracles. You start to live as if someone will always step in to save you. And sometimes they actually do. A family member floats you money or a windfall shows up. But each of these bailouts just reinforces the idea that we need to wait to be rescued. You don't build a real system. You don't make hard choices. You simply wait for the next rescue to appear. Well, rescues don't last forever. At some point the money doesn't show up. And when that happens, you are exposed. Especially because you never learned how to handle money yourself. You know, the funny thing is that when Jackie's back is against the wall, she actually stepped up very well. She told Alex, I'm going to go out and get a job. She did the next day. But why do we have to wait until you are running out of money? People living their rich life never wait until their back is against the wall. They make plans well ahead of time. That's why I'm pushing Alex and Jackie so hard here. Faith can bring comfort, but in the long term, faith doesn't pay the bills. A system does.

So let's bring it back to trust here. When the word trust gets brought up, it's like a red flag for me. I lean in. I want to know what's going on. So when we reflect on what has happened in the past with money, we have Alex, who says, I sometimes trust Jackie, but not always Alex, you've created this byzantine system where Jackie has to text you all this stuff, right? And then like, and then like, what do you even do with it? You, like, fiddle around with it. You process the data, but does nothing. And then we have the history of buying these what I might call dreamer purchases. You know, if I buy this multi thousand dollar course. Nope, not that course. Actually, let me buy this course. Like, it'll all kind of. This will be the one thing. What do you notice as I illustrate what I've heard today, Jackie?

[Jackie]

I mean, I'm definitely a dreamer. I mean. Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Jackie]

I mean, you've nailed it.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you think being a dreamer affects the dreamer's partner?

[Jackie]

Oh, yeah. Leaves. I mean, probably have some running around trying to catch all the chickens because there's so many dreams. So I'm not the chicken. It's my dreams are the chickens.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow. Well said. Yeah, Alex agrees.

[Alex]

Yeah, I do. That's. That's true. Because I love her and I support her. And that's why I, you know, went along with the things that I was brought into. But, you know, it's hard. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

One of my favorite things is when people go through an experience and then they take away completely the wrong message. And I kind of love it. You know, like, they're like, hey, Ramit, I was running late to this thing, so I decided to run the red light. I was going 80 and there was a cop. They turn on their sirens, but then.

They took a left.

And I realized, as long as you are going 80 and your car is green, cops don't pull you over. I go, what the. That's not the takeaway from that story. There was a bank robbery, and you.

Just got lucky because they had to.

Go to something more important. That's the wrong takeaway. In some ways, I feel there might be the wrong takeaway here because the takeaway of, oh, my God, we have this debt. So you both sat down, you both had an honest conversation about how your financial situation together. There was a sense of urgency. We have this many months.

Third, you made a plan.

And what did you do during those months, by the way?

Were you meeting regularly?

Some might even say religiously? All the time. Never missing it, right?

[Alex]

Yes, sir.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then good things started to happen. Now I'm glad. Good things started to happen. That's awesome. And perhaps it, you know, there was.

Something in the air.

Perhaps it was faith. Perhaps you were more attuned to opportunities, like at the church. Great. Doesn't matter to me. But the fact is, you were doing specific behaviors. All right. And then once the debt was paid off, what happened to those meetings? They stopped. And then the debt or the. The spending has gone up. Like, there's a very strong correlation here. The behavior affects the outcomes.

[Alex]

No, I mean, that. Yeah, that makes sense for sure. 100%.

[Jackie]

Yeah. But I don't want negative behavior to. It's like our poor choices to fuel our desire to have positive behavior. Like, I'd rather just have the positive behavior outright.

[Ramit Sethi]

Agreed. So let's all agree that we want to minimize the, quote, negative behavior. Once in a while, things might happen. That's okay. We'll give each other some grace. No problem. But in general, let's. Let's optimize for a positive rich life, not, like, preventing all the bad things that can happen. Right. Everybody's good with that.

[Alex]

Absolutely.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cool. All right, Alex, what would you need in order for you to financially trust Jackie again?

[Alex]

I'm. I realize I'm basing it on a feeling. So, like, if I don't know how to explain it, like, a feeling of. Of trust that. That anything that's going to be significantly impactful for our family that we'll be able to discuss and have an honest conversation about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

She needs to be willing to talk to you about money.

That's it.

[Alex]

Well, I mean, I want to see, like, results, obviously. Like, I'd love to have six months of expenses in the savings and to be trending positive instead of trending negative. And obviously that's on both of us. But if I saw that, I would trust her also, because my perception Is that the. A lot of the downward trend is from purchases that she's making.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, what do you hear there?

[Jackie]

Okay, Alex. I mean, I could be completely wrong. Enough space, so let me know. But I. I remember meeting a couple times after our debt was gone, and we were trajectoring up, and it was like, okay, we're gonna meet four months. Like, this is awesome. You know, it was really like. Like, okay, we're gonna have that money in the bank, so now we can start putting money towards these dreams that we have. And I just feel like you have such resistance to that being a reality because of the fear of actually having these dreams come to pass. And so, like, I remember feeling discouraged. Like, I remember. It's like, suddenly there were, like, these expenses that were coming up that were preventing us from getting to four months. And I just wanted to, like, snowball stuff so that we could just get that four months, you know, tucked under. Because I think that's been a huge conversation, too, is like, okay, we can. Once we get three months, and then it's like. But then it changes. It's like, oh, once we get four months. Okay, once we get six months, and it's like, well, it's never gonna end. And then I get discouraged, and then it's like, well, what's the point of even saving anything?

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. But Alex, I think she makes some good points, though. Is there a fear that, hey, you know, okay, we hit this thing, but now I need to move the goalpost. It needs to get bigger and bigger. Are you afraid of Jackie spending money on music or another course?

[Alex]

I feel like our current financial situation, the way it stands now, without intervention, which is why we're here, we can't afford to do those things. So I. And it seems impossible from where we stand now without changing a lot. And so, yeah, I guess, like, there is a fear of, like, hey, it doesn't show up to me as a fear, but I'm totally open to the fact that it might be. To me, it feels like reality says, hey, if. If we're losing money every month, we can't. Like, we don't even have enough to cover expenses if something happened. I don't feel comfortable spending that on music. So that's what it feels like to me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you both be right?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, is it possible that Alex is right? You're spending more than you make. You're in a critical financial danger zone. And you are also right that you want to eventually be able to record some of your songs?

[Jackie]

Yeah. Yeah, totally. That's good.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'll tell you something. Life cannot simply be putting out fires for the rest of our life. How do both of you feel about that?

[Alex]

Amazing.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's why both of you have to be involved. And I actually have a lot of confidence you can do it because you've proven in the past that you can do it. Like, you sat down, you made those freaking meetings, you put those kids to.

Sleep, you said, we have a goal.

We're going to solve this. And you did. The problem is that you did it in a very episodic way. Means like a one off way. Let's just do this one thing, kind of like fix it. You basically put a patch on the wall and you're like, ah, this thing looks good enough. We're out of here.

We can't do that.

This is for the rest of your life. It is a totally different relationship with money. And we're going to tackle it by looking at the conscious spending plan.

Okay? Jackie is a dreamer, but I relish the rare opportunity to work with a dreamer. Because wanting to spend money is not selfish. It's normal. It's actually healthy. That's why guilt free spending is an integral part of my system. Money is meant to be enjoyed. The real problem isn't Jackie's desire to spend. It's that she and Alex don't actually have a real plan. So of course spending feels episodic and arbitrary. And when Alex changes the rules, like three months of savings or four or six, of course Jackie feels like she'll never get her turn. This is why it is so important to have regular monthly money conversations and a conscious spending plan that you both understand. They focus you on getting clear about what you actually want, what you need, cutting back on the things you don't care about, and even protecting the things you really do care about. A monthly money meeting allows you to create space for both partners to share your dreams. Now, you can do this on your own. You can use my Money for couples book that just came out. I have the exact words to say, or if you want us to help you do it even more and make it effortless, you should just join my money coaching program. We do this. We meet every single month. You are going to love it. As for Alex and Jackie, it's time to face an uncomfortable truth.

Here are your numbers. My assessment of these numbers is that you are in considerable danger. I'll tell you why I see that when I look at your income, you're at $91,000 gross and you have a big family so with that income and a big family, even with relatively low housing costs, the numbers really matter. The numbers really matter. Like, we can't just be randomly spending an extra $800 or 1200amonth, which is exactly what's happening here. Your fixed costs are simply too high. You are actually spending more than you make every single month. When you factor everything in and you are putting yourself at risk because you don't have very much going to investments and you, your savings are at zero, you are very close to running out of money, like, within a matter of months. And while I hope you have people to save you, if you don't, you are really screwed. How does my analysis strike you both?

[Jackie]

I'm just back there again where, you know, Alex is like, what are we gonna do? It's like, okay, let's go make money.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your natural tendency is to apply a patch on the wall.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, quickly. Let's make money quickly. And that mindset has to change. I'm surprised you're not freaking out.

[Jackie]

I'm. Me too.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why, why is that, like, you're months away from running out of money? Is it that, like, somebody will provide? It's always been fine. It's going to be fine again.

[Jackie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Alex will protect. Alex is in charge. He'll figure it out, that kind of thing.

[Jackie]

Yeah. Then Alex. Yeah, Alex will figure it out. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, here's what we're going to do. I'm putting these numbers up on screen. What I want is for us to try to get these numbers back to the standard conscious spending plan numbers. 50 to 60% for fixed costs, 5 to 10 for savings and investing, and 20 to 35 for guilt free spending. It's not going to work exactly the same. Everyone's is different. But we're going to use that as our benchmark. And you're going to have to make some tough decisions. The way I think about it, my mental model is right now, the house is on fire. We got to put this freaking fire out. Once that fires out, we rebuild some stuff. All right, but first we got to start Stop the fire. Some tough changes. Are we all down for that approach?

[Alex]

Yes.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's do it. Jackie, what changes should we make on the fixed costs, which are currently 87% to try to bring them to 60%.

[Jackie]

I need to look at groceries and look at what meals that we like to eat that don't require a lot of ingredients.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. Groceries are $1,550 a month. How much do you think you could get that number to realistically, it seems.

[Jackie]

Like, I mean, I want to do 1200.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, fine. All right, so here, watch. Watch what happens. I want you to look at this number, this fixed cost number of 87%. As I change your groceries from 1550 to 1200, what did the number drop to?

[Jackie]

Whoa, 81.

[Ramit Sethi]

81%. Okay, cool. I feel very confident you can get to 1200.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's next, Alex?

[Alex]

We could drop subscriptions a bit, but I don't think it's going to make a ton of a difference.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tell me the number.

[Alex]

Yeah, I think. Let's see.

[Jackie]

Campus 14. I can get rid of Amazon and we have MLB. That's 37.

[Alex]

I think we could get that to 70.

[Ramit Sethi]

70. All right, here's a number. From 81% fixed cost down to 80%. What's next?

[Jackie]

I mean, I could do 50 in.

[Ramit Sethi]

Close instead of 154.

[Jackie]

Kids, are you sure we don't need clothes every month?

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a good answer. 50 bucks down to 79%. What's next?

[Alex]

So the part that says car payment, transportation. So that 170 that's showing is gas. I'm confident we could do. We could fill up each car once in the month, which would be about like, 140.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, 140.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

78%.

[Alex]

Then here's the tricky part, right. The easy call here for a lot of people would be eliminate tithing.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right?

[Alex]

Right. Because that would bring us immediately down to the number, and then it's hard with the beliefs around that. Right. So to me, the answer then is just make more money.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you feel about that, Jackie?

[Jackie]

Yeah, I mean, the same. I mean, it's like when we give 10% of what we're receiving, like, that is like our way of trusting the Lord.

[Ramit Sethi]

I've. I've spoken to several people who tithe, and they're in financial distress. So I have a couple of questions for you. What if you did 2%?

[Alex]

I think for me, there's just, to be honest, there's like fear, fear around the whole thing.

[Ramit Sethi]

Fear of what?

[Alex]

Oh, fear of that being wrong.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean?

[Alex]

Like, morally wrong to not tie the 10. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And Jackie, what if you tithe 2%?

[Jackie]

Yeah. Like, God would be like, hey, like, I've given you $91,000 a year and you can't tithe? Like, you can't give me 500.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, okay, let's keep going. What if you were like, yes, that's correct. I actually can't give you 569, but I can Give you less. I mean, what happens then?

[Jackie]

He would not support us financially or. Or spiritually. Or would we? I don't know if we would go to. I don't think we're going to hell.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is like a. This is a very important question. Again, I. I appreciate your religious beliefs. And again, if you tell me like, hey, we're just gonna do 10 and let's move on to something else, I'm totally down for that. But to me, it's such an important question to probe, and I'm. What I'm hearing are quite murky answers. Notice I did not say zero.

[Alex]

Yeah, it's a.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's a. A different set of lenses to put on. Again, I'm not saying give up your religious beliefs.

[Alex]

Not at all.

[Ramit Sethi]

In fact, keep going to church.

Like, we.

When I was growing up, we would go to our temple, our Gurdwara, and we would do something called seva. It's like we would serve people food and we would, like, pass out prashad and stuff like that. That's. That's how we do it. And there are lots of ways to do it. I know tithing is how you were raised, Alex, but what I'm trying to do is kind of expand our possibilities here because $569 a month right now, you are.

You've made all these changes.

You've essentially cut almost everything you could, and you are still at 78%.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You are broke.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Jackie, what's going on for you? I see you thinking, I just don't know.

[Jackie]

I mean, I've just. I've never considered cutting, tiding and what that would. I mean, how that would affect me mentally and spiritually and, you know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, fair enough. Alex, what about you?

[Alex]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's just. For me, just what's present is. Yeah. Just fear around it. Because of that being such a deep, deep belief. And not even so much from a. It's weird. More so from a. This is just the way I was raised. What you're supposed to do for me, it's, I think, think more that than it is. Like, I believe God's going to, like, lightning bolt me if we don't tie.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like tradition.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's like, I've done this my whole life. You've seen your parents do it. And if I don't do it, then what happens? And also, who does that make me? Because I'm the kind of person who has tithed and never missed it.

[Alex]

Sure.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can I ask a provocative question? What if you brought your tithing down dramatically. But you both said, look, this is important to us. We don't like that we are in this situation and one of the compromises we have to make right now is that we can't tie the way we want to as a family. Here is our plan, and this is going to light a fire under us. Number one, we are going to pay off our debt. We're going to build up our emergency fund to this amount. We're going to set our investments and get control of our money. Two, once we hit those numbers, we are going to increase our tithing by 1%. And then at the next milestone, 1%. And eventually we will bring our tithing back up. And when we hit XYZ milestone, we may even pay back the old tithing that we missed. But right now, our house is on fire and we have to protect our family first. How do you think that would go over?

[Alex]

I think I. I'm in support of that for sure.

[Jackie]

Yeah. I mean, that sounds like the slow growth that you were talking about.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Wow. So you would both be open to that.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that. Okay. That's amazing.

One thing I really like about talking.

To both of you is this is like perhaps the most fraught question of all that we have discussed.

[Jackie]

This is.

[Ramit Sethi]

Goes deeper than a number on a spreadsheet.

This is who you believe you are.

Your relationship with God. And even still when I'm pushing and probing, you are listening and you are. You're dancing with me. And I appreciate that. That, to me, shows me you are ready to make some changes.

[Jackie]

It's really moving. Like, I'm really moved right now that, like, the possibility that. That God doesn't like that either and that like, he wants to help us get back up to 10%. Great.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes. Let's make it happen.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, here we go. So I'm going to take this $569 a month and I'm going to drop it to 50 bucks just to see what happens. From $569 a month tithing at 10% to $50. Watch this fixed cost number. Whoa. What just happened?

[Alex]

Dropped a 69%.

[Ramit Sethi]

69%. What do you both think of that right now?

[Alex]

It's a lot better than where it was.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

It's.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's a bit high still, but we are within striking distance.

It is way better than where you were. Way better.

I thought this was extremely interesting. In almost every situation where I've had somebody on the show and they tithe to their church, I'll Ask them, are you willing to Change that? Almost 100% of the time, they go, nope. And you know what I say, fine, we'll work around it. The people I talk to who are tithing are often in severe debt and still even facing bankruptcy, even facing running out of money with kids, they'll go, nope, we are going to continue tithing.

I go, okay, fine.

That's not because I necessarily agree with it. It is that it is hard enough to get people to cancel a $10 streaming subscription. You think I'm going to get someone to cancel something that is part of their identity? Not likely. Instead, my approach is, let me acknowledge that's important to you. I'm totally fine with it. Let me show you what else we can do. Sometimes if you tithe, it means that you cannot buy a new car for 16 years. Sometimes it means you cannot buy that house, you cannot send your kids to college. I just want to lay out the ramifications in black and white. And then you decide what's important to you. In this case, as I asked them, I could tell they were slightly open to changing it. And that's why I decided to go down this path and take some time to show them a different way of thinking about tithing. Notice that I did not try to get them to cut it to zero. That's not my place. It wouldn't work. Instead, what I was doing was understanding what it means to them and then showing them different options. Most of us operate in the world of money in a very simplistic, sometimes even childlike way. I like this. Therefore I pay for it. And that's it. That's the extent of why we pay for a certain type of supplement that we take or Netflix or whatever. What we often don't realize is that we can almost take our spending and turn it into multiple dimensions. I don't mean to sound super woo woo, but we can spend less for six months and then spend even more. We can invest over here and allow us to 10x our spending 10 years down the line. There's so many different ways to look at our spending. It's almost three dimensional the way I see it. And that was some of what I wanted to share with Alex and Jackie. I will say I am extremely pleased that they finally opened themselves up to a new way of looking at their tithing that is incredibly impressive. It almost never happens and in my opinion, it's a very positive sign for how flexible they are willing to be in order to live their rich life.

So all that extra money that we just cut dropped all the way down to your guilt free spending. Right now you have $1,653 per month to spend or allocate however you want. Now, obviously we don't want you to be spending that much because you have other priorities.

What are those other priorities?

[Jackie]

Savings.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

Yeah.

You need savings and investing. Yes, savings and investing. I would say probably even I, I might argue prioritizing savings because your current savings of $16,000 just very risky. Very risky. I do want to point something out. By bringing your fixed costs down, your savings now provide a longer Runway. So you're at actually four months, which is good. That's good. I really like that. I think you should do more. So let's take some of this money, $1,653, and let's put it towards your emergency fund. How much do you want to do?

Let's try it.

If we get it wrong, we'll change it. Jackie.

[Jackie]

Okay, let's do 200.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, great. So 200 bucks. Watch what happens to this number. And this number, 200 bucks a month, means you are now saving 4% of take home pay. Usually I like to see that number at 5 to 10%.

[Jackie]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. So like right now we're not hitting the number, but we're within striking distance. And usually I like to see this guilt free spending number at 20 to 35 per percent. Oh, but can I ask you something? You're at 26% right now. What number? If you had to guess, since I recommend that most people are at 20 to 35%, what number do you think you should be at for guilt free spending? Higher or lower? Like at the high end or the low end of that range?

[Jackie]

Maybe the higher end.

[Ramit Sethi]

I probably would say the lower end or even lower because you have debt and you're not tithing. So how can you be spending more on like eating out and all this stuff if you're not tithing the way you want to?

[Jackie]

Totally.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right. Okay, cool. So I would probably have that number below 20%, which is almost like, hey, we're gonna, as a family, come together, hit these milestones as quickly as possible, and then we can loosen up and, you know, go out to pizza once in a while. How do you feel about that?

[Jackie]

That's so good. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I candidly feel we can do more than 200 bucks a month. Like a lot more.

[Jackie]

Let's bump it up.

[Ramit Sethi]

Really?

[Jackie]

I think so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hell yeah.

[Jackie]

Tell me like, what's $800?

[Ramit Sethi]

Damn, I like it. 800 bucks put you at 14 for savings and 15 for guilt free spending. Okay. Is there something about a bonus in here, Alex?

[Alex]

Yeah. So that is something that I did not account for in the.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much?

[Alex]

10% once a year in the spring.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, wow. 9,000 bucks.

[Alex]

Yep.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait a minute. That changes everything. So what do you do with the money?

[Alex]

Well, that covers all the costs that we're bleeding. We're still overspending though.

[Ramit Sethi]

Still?

[Alex]

I. I'm pretty sure.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, okay. We're going to fix this right now. Even with the extra $9,000, you were still losing money even with a hundred thousand dollar salary. So we got to fix that systematically. So what are you going to do with the $9,000 now? Because notice you are actually not overspending anymore if you actually stick to this plan.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Every month you are saving 800 bucks a month. You've cut your tithing, you've cut your groceries. Okay. What are you going to do with that? Roughly $9,000 that comes in as a bonus.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Jackie]

Pay off the car.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's one option. What else? Throw them out.

[Alex]

We put a ton of it in savings toward the emergency fund until that's locked down.

[Ramit Sethi]

You could do that. Yep. What else?

[Alex]

Put the bump to giving back up.

[Ramit Sethi]

Here's how I might think about it.

I always like to have rules for.

Unexpected income, and we do it by percentage. So for a lot of people, if they have no debt, they might do something like 70% goes to investing, 30% goes guilt free spending, something like that. Of course, if you have debt, you, you know, you want to put more towards debt, et cetera, et cetera. My suggestion is save like 50% of it. What that does is it takes your bonus and in a systematic way, it builds savings even more. So that's 4,500. Y' all want to do something for yourself? Maybe put some money aside for a dream?

[Alex]

Yeah, I'd love to like put it towards the music that Jackie was talking about. I think that'd be awesome.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that. As long as the bonus comes in, I'm gonna have some money put aside in a specific savings account called Jackie's Music. What do you think about that, Jackie?

[Jackie]

Yes. Yeah, this is great.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. What do you need to do in order to make this work?

[Alex]

I feel relatively compliment or confident. But Jackie, stop me if this is not correct. We don't want to do the text message thing. That's archaic and terrible. How do we track the stuff to meet these numbers but in a way that's not sort of that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, I totally agree. So Jackie, do you remember how much the grocery amount is per month?

[Jackie]

Yeah, it's 1200.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, 1200. How many times a month do you shop?

[Jackie]

Three. Three times a week.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, three times a week. So. So basically, each time you go, do you know how much you spend on average each time you go?

[Jackie]

Yeah, probably 200 or around $200.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, if you go three times a week, as you've been doing $100 each time.

[Jackie]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you have to manage to the number. Now you have a number. So it's actually like, it becomes a whole different type of shopping experience. Like, this is my mission, this is what I have to hit, and you are responsible for it.

You may need to talk to Alex and be like, alex, like, I can't.

Do this with all the kids. I need you to figure out how to help.

So I. I need to be able.

To build up my intuition. I'm sure the two of you can discuss that, but over time, you'll get really good at it. Like, I give it like a month. You're going to be sailing, sailing. You're going to nail this. Okay.

[Jackie]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Both of you working together, realizing it's not about micro numbers, about the big picture. There are like two or three key numbers that need to be tracked, they need to be hit, and all the rest of it. Put a system around it. Reduce your tithing number, reduce your subscriptions number, and the two of you should.

Really be talking not only at the in the weeds level, but like, hey.

How many months until our savings account is full?

We can actually look at the numbers. How many months until we can start.

Increasing our tithing by 1%?

How many months until you can go.

Record your first song? That's the level I want you talking at.

[Jackie]

That's huge. That's huge.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's incredible. So those changes to me are like, incredible. They are actually changing who you are and giving yourselves an even better tomorrow. And you can do it all on.

One income if you are dialed in and systematic about it.

[Jackie]

Like, I really feel confident in owning my identity that I like that I can show up for Alex, and that's going to bring us the connection that I was so deeply looking for.

[Alex]

Yeah, just. I mean, even just having the conversation and having a plan, like, I already feel trust restored. And I see what the part I played in that and the part that Jackie played in that and how that all came together to make that whole thing, but that we can, like, easily move past that and with a plan that we won't have to worry about falling into that again? Because when you have a plan and you execute, it just keeps going.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, I love that it goes up. It gets better. Not harder. It gets better. That's awesome.

Do you remember where these two started? Alex didn't trust Jackie with money, so he tracked every dollar for 10 years on a spreadsheet that only he understood. But the system did nothing. It never actually changed their reality. And Jackie noticed. So she kept doing what she always did. Chasing dreams, waiting for a bailout from family, from strangers, from God. This is how couples get stuck. They take on roles without talking about them. Those roles calcify and soon it's 10 years later and neither one is happy. Rich life, forget about it. My partner won't even look at my spreadsheet. The breakthrough for Alex and Jackie wasn't just cutting back on groceries or, or even rethinking their tithing. It was realizing that neither of them could keep playing their old roles. They needed a new shared plan that made room for their dreams and their finances. And if you're wondering how Alex and Jackie are doing today, check out this update they just sent me.

[Jackie]

Biggest surprise working from Ramit was just that Alex felt like he had to manage my ideas. And I am genuinely excited about being responsible, responsible for my ideas, for sharing in this new partnership to create this financial budget that really works for the both of us so that both of us can be stress free about ideas, dreams, and the state of our finances. My biggest takeaway has been that tithing doesn't have to be a fixed number, that it can be fluid. So that's been really freeing. We sat down and talked about the budget already that we're going to be using. I feel like there's just more intention and it's fun. It's become kind of a game. I already feel like things are changing in a really positive way.

[Alex]

My biggest surprise from the conversation was just how willing and excited Jackie is about partnering with me in the finances and coming together and each of us having sort of our own areas of responsibility. So that's a huge blessing. Biggest takeaway is that building a better financial future for our family is something that will happen via small but consistent changes over time rather than trying to solve everything all at once. And so watching those dollar amounts build every month until we can build that emergency fund back up is going to be really exciting. We have already already resumed our weekly meetings where we talk about a bunch of different things like our kids homeschooling, but specifically adding the financial piece back in there and really spending time getting on the same page, we are abandoning our archaic and complex spreadsheet to use the conscious spending plan. And so it's nice to have those streamlined categories that actually make sense and lead to change rather than sort of our craziness that we've been doing for the last almost 10 years and then just, yeah, adjusting those category amounts so that we're saving every month instead of losing money every month.

[Jackie]

Been about three and a half weeks since we chatted with Ramit. And the biggest insight I received is that I could be in control of my own spending. Right before, it was me texting Alex my spending habits and he would keep track of it all in the spreadsheet. And I didn't get to see the numbers. And how we've changed our direction now is I'm in charge of all of my spending, so I've been given control back. I no longer feel out of control. And that's been really nice to have these categories really set in stone, per se. But even combining guilt free spending with groceries gives me a little bit of incentive because I'm like, okay, if I spend less on groceries, I'll have more in guilt free spending. So there's a little bit of mind game I play with myself, but it's been really effective. We came in under budget last month with $8, so hallelujah. Thank you, Ramit, so much. We have been keeping track of receipts. We add up all those receipts at the end of the week, so we're not texting each other anymore. And the money has a place place, especially when we're doing our weekly meetings. So thank you, thank you, thank you A thousand times. It's changed so much for us. It's so nice to have self control in one area. I just hope that it continues to bleed over into other areas. So thank you.

[Alex]

It's been a little over three and a half weeks. And the biggest insight that stuck with me is just the simplest one, which is that she sharing responsibility for the finances within a partnership works wonders. And so Jackie and I have started doing that and it's been incredible. We've just been sort of synced up in a way that we haven't been in a long time. So we're really grateful for that. We eliminated $50 worth of subscriptions that we realized we don't really care about or need. We have shared responsibilities with certain categories of finances. We came in under $1200 for the first time in a long time for, for groceries. It was amazing to just live within our means for the first time while still dreaming of the things we want to save up for and do. So not only did we put away the big chunk that we were saving, but we also spent a tiny bit less than we had planned on spending and we didn't feel deprived in any way. So big changes have been happening for us and we're really grateful for it.

[Ramit Sethi]

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