242. "Our couples therapist couldn’t fix this. Please help."

Summary

Podcast Summary: Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 242: "Our couples therapist couldn’t fix this. Please help."

Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Natalie and Chris

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Episode Overview

This episode of Money For Couples delves into the complex and emotional dynamics of money in marriage. Ramit welcomes Natalie and Chris, a married couple with two children and a $1.3 million net worth. Despite strong financials on paper, they face recurring conflict around money—particularly when unexpected expenses come up, with Chris spiraling into anxiety and Natalie feeling shut out of their financial planning.

Their therapist recommended they appear on the podcast, believing the issue was less psychological and more financial in nature. Ramit uses this session to unpack the deeper beliefs, communication gaps, and outdated habits that underlie their challenges, ultimately guiding them toward greater understanding and actionable solutions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Problem: Anxiety and Disconnection Over Money

• Recurring Anxiety Triggers:
   Chris “freaks out” (04:52) when faced with unknown or large future expenses, becoming withdrawn and emotionally unavailable to Natalie and their kids.
• Natalie’s Perspective:
   Natalie admires Chris’s DIY savings mindset but is hurt by his emotional shutdowns and feels locked out of family investment decisions.
• Cyclical Pattern:
   These conflicts emerge 3–4 times a year and have been typically “treated as symptoms, not the cause” (05:25).

Notable Moments:

• Natalie: “I felt like I was living with a stranger… it was such a huge impact on your psyche that we couldn’t live life as normal.” (06:00)
• Chris: “All I can really spend my mental energy thinking about is how I’m going to fix the problem.” (06:27)

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2. The Money Landscape: Numbers Don’t Always Equal Security

• Snapshot of Finances:
   - Assets: $893,000
   - Investments: $634,000
   - Savings: $33,000
   - Debt: $211,000
   - Net Worth: $1.3 million (02:01)
• Income: Combined gross monthly income of ~$13,696 ($164K/year) (16:47)
• Expense Breakdown:
   - Fixed costs: 81% of income (18:18)
   - Investments: 10%
   - Savings: 0%
   - Guilt-free spending: 9% (but with guilt)
   They are spending ~$3,000 more than they earn each month, burning through savings (34:13, 36:12).

Quotes:

• Ramit: “You are spending $3,000 more than you make. In approximately 10 months, you are out of money.” (36:12)

• Chris: “It's not the number that makes me nervous, it’s the burn rate.” (15:54)

• Natalie: “The financial system feels sloppy.” (19:31)

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3. Communication and Inclusion Gaps

• Investment Management:
   All family investments are managed by Chris and a legacy advisor, Leonard, with little transparency or participation from Natalie.
• Natalie Feels Marginalized:
   Email updates, account summaries, and meetings exclude her, leaving her “marginalized, disrespected, pushed aside—not important.” (14:28)
• Chris’s Response:
   Admits not clarifying financial details and rationale for “comfort numbers”—like keeping $10,000 in checking—for Natalie.

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4. The Psychological Roots: Family History and Mindset

• Chris’s Background:
   Grew up with parental advice centered on scrutinizing spending (“Do you really need that?”), leading to lifelong habits of extreme saving, skepticism, and reluctance to spend—even after inheriting significant wealth (56:10).
• Natalie’s Background:
   Raised by a frugal single mother in lower-middle-class circumstances, with an emphasis on saving and financial independence, but now feels dwarfed by the complexity and language of investing (62:35).
• Inherited Patterns:
   Chris continues using his childhood advisor and inherited financial habits, even as his life circumstances have dramatically changed (74:19).

Notable Moment:

• Ramit: “You are operating on the valuable lessons your parents taught you that happen not to match your current financial reality.” (97:20)

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5. Breaking Down the Issues: Awareness, Language & Trends

• Burn Rate vs. Balance:
   Chris obsesses about the trend line (burn rate) while Natalie watches account balances—different “languages” leading to misunderstandings.
• Exclusion from Financial Knowledge:
   Natalie’s lack of access and financial language leaves her less empowered, while Chris’s default management keeps the old system running.

Key Exchange (with timestamps):

• Ramit: “The dynamic that you have allowed… is your wife is literally jumping back, saying, ‘That’s not me.’ We need to fix that… because that’s a culture problem.” (95:59)

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6. Solutions and Strategic Shifts

• Automating Savings:
   Lack of automatic savings creates constant worry and a sense of scarcity. Ramit coaches them to automate transfers—even small ones—to rebuild their emergency fund and create predictability (94:34).
• Reconsidering Investments:
   Despite being strong savers and early investors, Chris is encouraged to temporarily reduce retirement contributions, redirecting more income to cash reserves and current needs while the kids are young—a “countercultural” move that makes sense for their situation (99:38).
• Evaluating and Firing Advisors:
   Ramit calls out the high cost of their financial advisor ($400K–$1M in fees over 20–30 years), pushes for transparency, and urges them to act aggressively to bring investments under their direct control (86:34).
• Shared Vision and Conversation:
   Plans are made to create a vision together—a “Rich Life”—to align their spending with what brings joy rather than what only brings safety (82:12).

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7. The Rich Life: Reconnecting Possibility to Money

• Rich Life Ideas:
   - Natalie: “I would love a kiln in our garage.” (82:53)
   - Chris: “I’d love to have an old project car to work on.” (82:38)
• Appreciation for What Money Enables:
   Chris and Natalie reframe their perspective on large expenses like daycare—from suffering to gratitude and acceptance of the support it provides (92:13).
• Automated Success:
   Systems are set up to ensure savings accumulates automatically, restoring a sense of control and unity.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Chris on Uncertainty:
   “I get really stressed out when unknown future financial burdens come up... I start freaking out and it affects my mood around everyone in the family.” (04:52)

• Natalie on Exclusion:
   “All emails or questions or updates or summaries are still never sent to me… I feel marginalized, disrespected, pushed aside, not important.” (13:53, 14:28)

• Ramit on Mindsets:
   “When you become more adept with money, you start to see it less as a series of black and white rules and more as a fluid, beautiful art form.” (104:04)

• Chris’s Aha Moment:
   “I did not expect financial advice to be save less… But in this particular situation, it makes a lot of sense.” (103:29)

• Natalie on Change:
   “I’ve never seen Chris this optimistic about finances and the fact that he’s at ease now has just made a night and day difference in our relationship, so it works.” (111:52)

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Key Turning Points & Timestamps

• The “Burn Rate” Epiphany: Chris explains his obsession with burn rate over balances, revealing the emotional trigger behind his anxiety (10:18–11:17).
• Confronting the Advisor: Discovering and quantifying how much Leonard is siphoning off their portfolio (41:00–42:33; 86:34).
• Math vs. Mindset: Ramit reframes the issue as not just “black-and-white” math, but about feelings, scarcity, and outdated scripts (80:15–81:12, 104:04).
• Radical Permission: Chris and Natalie are encouraged to “play bigger” and permit themselves to enjoy their money now—not just in retirement (51:52–53:05).
• Automating Success: Shifting focus from obsessive frugality and hand-wringing to building systems—automating savings, sharing investment responsibilities, and setting rules for abundance (94:34–95:19; 106:53).

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Follow-Up: After the Recording (110:18)

• Chris:
   Realizes it’s okay (even wise) to pull back from retirement savings temporarily, redirecting money to cash flow. Has already reduced 401(k) contributions and is committed to moving investments away from Edward Jones.
• Natalie:
   Is astounded by their true long-term wealth and grateful for new clarity, highlighting how much lighter and connected they both feel. Therapist notes visible improvements in their relationship and optimism.

“Chris is incredibly motivated to not invest as much at the moment… We’re auto-depositing into a savings account each month to purchase the vehicle we want… I’ve never seen Chris this optimistic about finances…” (111:52)

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Ramit's Closing Insights

Ramit emphasizes that money issues in couples are rarely just about dollars and cents—they are about early lessons, roles, communication patterns, and permission to dream together. Real financial progress comes from aligning systems, language, and vision, not just filling spreadsheets.

“If we know that we are calm, cool, collected, a team, then what decisions would we make? … When people finally see each other and realize ‘I have control over my money,’ it is beautiful.” (104:04; 106:24)

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Even successful, intelligent couples can let childhood scripts or “invisible rules” run their financial lives to the detriment of their wellbeing and unity.
• Automating and systematizing savings and investments is critical for reducing stress.
• Money management must be a shared, transparent, and inclusive effort—no one should be “shut out” of the family’s financial plan.
• Reducing fees and understanding where your money is going is as important as saving more.
• Permission is needed to shift from pure “survival” or “scarcity mindset” to actively using money as a tool for joy, connection, and a “rich life.”

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For New Listeners

If you want candid, numbers-based yet deeply emotional explorations of how couples’ money struggles play out—and how to fix them—subscribe to Money For Couples.
You’ll learn that having a rich life is less about your bank account and more about the systems, conversations, and dreams you share with your partner.

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[00:04:52] Chris: “I get really stressed out when unknown future financial burdens come up... I start freaking out and it affects my mood around everyone in the family.”

[00:14:28] Natalie: “Marginalized, disrespected, pushed aside, not important.”

[00:36:12] Ramit: “You are spending $3,000 more than you make. In approximately 10 months, you are out of money.”

[01:11:52] Natalie: “I’ve never seen Chris this optimistic about finances… the fact that he’s at ease has made a night and day difference in our relationship, so it works.”

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End of Summary

Transcript

[A]

Let me share some of the coolest ways that my community has recently used money to live a rich life. One member did a month long honeymoon in Europe after deciding she didn't want a big wedding. Another member bought a VW SUV that was their dream car that they've wanted for years. And another member made a rule that anytime she buys a ticket for an event, she always buys a second so that she can bring a friend. The these are just a few examples of how my Money Coaching members have built systems to use their money. Notice that there's no more anxiety that they have a smooth running system. They know when their debt's going to be paid off. They can feel comfortable spending on the things they love. They can actually spend less time on their finances while living an amazing life. In my Money Coaching program, members also get access to live events every month, including topics like Money with aging parents and how to create amazing vacations. That was one of my favorites where I shared how I spend my money on travel +Q&A directly from me. If you want to start building your rich life today, join us and get instant access to our back catalog of years of live calls. Check out iwt.com money coaching to join now. That's iwt.com moneycoaching to join the program right now. Your therapist is the one who recommended that you speak to me.

[B]

I get really stressed out when unknown financial burdens come up. I start freaking out.

[C]

I felt like I was living with a stranger. It was such a huge impact on your psyche that we couldn't live life as normal.

[B]

All I spend my mental energy thinking about is how I'm going to fix the problem and that gets me spiraling. What if one of the kids takes a big fall and has to go to the hospital? Or I have to go to the hospital?

[A]

You are spending $3,000 more than you make in approximately 10 months. You are out of money.

[C]

That's scary. That doesn't sound good.

[A]

You two are in a position you have never realized before because you are operating on the valuable lessons that your parents taught you that happen to not match your current financial reality. Imagine my surprise today when I discovered that a therapist recommended today's guests come on my podcast. Their therapist told them, you don't need another therapy session. You need this podcast. And I want to say I'm honored. I have a lot of respect for all of the mental health professionals in America. Therapists, psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, addiction counselors, professors, and everyone else in the field. And that is why I constantly try to destigmatize getting help for mental health. And, and I constantly recommend that my guests work with these specialists. So for all the mental health professionals who listen to Money for couples, thank you. And now today I want to introduce my guests. I'm speaking to Natalie and Chris. They are married with two young kids and they have a net worth of $1.3 million. On paper, they're doing well behind the scenes. Money keeps creating conflict in their relationship, especially when big unexpected expenses come up. For example, when a big expense hits, Natalie tells me that Chris collapses emotionally. So what's actually happening here? Why would someone with a million dollar net worth react this way? So let's take a look at their conscious spending plan, which covers a quick snapshot of their finances. Assets $893,000. Investments $634,000. Savings $33,000. Debt $211,000. Total net worth, $1.3 million. Their monthly spending breakdowns. Fixed costs 81%. That's high. Investments, 10%. Savings 0%. That's a red flag. Guilt free spending, 9%. Okay, they're spending 81% of their income on fixed costs. They're saving nothing and they've got less than 10% going to guilt free spending. These are some red flags. When money is that tight, even with a high income, it creates this constant feeling of stress. It means there's no room for mistakes, no margin for unexpected expenses. Why does someone with a million dollar net worth need to cut it that close? Why would you set your money up to flow like this? Shouldn't you feel good about money once you have seven figures? Well, here's my question for you. Maybe you've got a solid income, maybe you've got good savings, solid investments, but there's still nothing left over at the end of the month. If this is you, tell me in the comments. How does it feel? I want to read what your feelings and experiences are. Feeling like there's nothing left at the end of the month. Now let's meet Natalie and Chris and figure out what's really going on. Can you tell me what was going on in therapy where my name came up?

[B]

I get really stressed out when unknown future financial burdens come up. So if a car breaks down and I don't know how much it's going to cost to fix it, I start freaking out and it affects me not just when I find out, but for a long while after. And that definitely impacts my mood around everyone in the family. So we were talking about how it's detrimental and that Maybe it's not even particularly rational.

[C]

This is a cyclical thing that happens in our relationship three or four times a year. And previously we've always tried to treat the symptoms, so to speak, instead of the. The cause.

[A]

So when you say this, you're talking about Chris, as he describes it, quote, freaking out about an unexpected cost.

[C]

Yes. Okay.

[A]

And you, you mentioned, Natalie, that when one of these expenses comes up, Chris shuts everyone out. Do you have any examples of that?

[C]

My vehicle. My vehicle. The air conditioning went out. And one thing I admire so much about Chris is his not only willingness, but ability to fix things himself to save money. So he attempted to fix the issue, and because of circumstances that weren't entirely his fault, it didn't get fixed and actually made things worse with the vehicle. And there was a period of what, Chris? Two or three days that I felt like I was living with a stranger, like, alone. It was such a huge impact on your psyche that we couldn't live life as normal.

[A]

Tell me what happened.

[B]

I just kind of become really blank, kind of zombie. Like, all I can really spend my mental energy thinking about is how I'm going to fix the problem. And when it's a problem that I can't fix with my hands and my tools, then it's just a money issue. And that gets me, you know, just kind of spiraling.

[C]

So when the kids ask for something, he can't respond effectively or can't provide that for them, or when I ask about a completely unrelated issue, he's unable to think about that or address it. All he can do is, like, go to work and come home. Very zombie like, and no emotion and shutting us out.

[A]

How long does it last for?

[C]

It depends on when he can get an answer as to how much the fix will be.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. And what did your therapist suggest would be a great outcome for our conversation today?

[C]

I brought up the question of how much money in our savings is an okay amount so that Chris does not react this way to an unforeseen expense. And that's when she suggested that we listen to your podcast and start to think about financial fixes and being on the same page and getting a game plan together so that the this doesn't happen in the future.

[A]

Okay, you mentioned kids. How many kids and how old?

[C]

We have two. We have a six year old boy and a three year old girl.

[A]

Okay, great. How long has this dynamic around money existed?

[B]

I've always kind of had that feeling around money. I think it's exacerbated by the fact that now that we do have two kids and there's a lot of expenses associated with it. And so I would say that around the time that kid expenses really started piling up, like daycare is when it got to the point it is now.

[A]

Okay, got it. And when these feelings come up for you, like when a large expense comes up, that with an uncertain amount, what's going on for you? Do you have a voice that's saying something? Do you have a feeling in your chest?

[B]

It's a feeling of being, you know, really concerned. And it's always the what if? It's generally not that issue that I'm concerned with. It's okay. This issue has come up and I know it's going to cost a few thousand dollars at least. I don't know exactly how much, but what if we get in a crash with another vehicle and that's going to be a large expense? Or what if one of the kids takes a big fall and has to go to the hospital? Or I have to go to the hospital. And it's that concern about maintaining that cushion and being able to re establish it fast enough before the next thing comes along.

[A]

You ever talk about catastrophizing in therapy?

[C]

No, but we will now, specifically.

[B]

But yeah, I mean, that's kind of what it is, right? It's, it's the. I'm not particularly concerned about this one, but what happens if another one comes right behind it?

[A]

Okay. All right. And Natalie, in your application you wrote, we're doing just fine financially, better than most. And so if you are truly doing better than most, why do you think money is such an issue in your relationship?

[C]

Chris and I have not yet established money flows to put money automatically in savings. Filling out the spreadsheet that you sent us was a real eye opener to the amount that we have in investments, which is factually better than most people our age. Right. But having that cash on hand seems to be the issue with us. I don't know. There's just some kind of discrepancy between how you view things, Chris, and how I view things. On how much money cash on hand is a good amount for us to feel. Okay.

[B]

I don't particularly see it as the amount of money on hand in like the checking and savings account that we can pull from. That's the issue. It's what's the trend line look like? If is it generally going up or generally going down? Because when it's going down, I just see it as like a, a burn rate and there's a, a Set deadline where we gotta fix something if it's going up. I feel a whole lot better about a large expense coming because I know that within a certain amount of time we'll be able to get back to square one. If the trend line is, you know, we're, we're spending more than we're saving, I, I see that as like there's a timeline on how long we're financially stable. And you know, that gets me nervous. And then so when a, a large financial unknown jumps in, it cuts the fuse shorter, if you will.

[A]

What's the role that each of you plays in your relationship as it relates to money?

[B]

I feel like I'm pretty financially savvy in terms of understanding different investment types and the market, but lately it's mostly just going to work and bringing home steady paychecks and not as much active investment anymore.

[A]

So if you had to put a name to that, what's the role?

[B]

I would say it's the primary money earner in the family.

[A]

Okay. And Natalie, what's your role?

[C]

I handle the groceries and the clothes and the shopping for the most part. Chris's investments, I'm savings. But because I'm not the primary breadwinner, I move over money from my business checking when I can. I move that over when I feel like it's an okay thing to do. When our checking has a good enough cushion.

[B]

Okay, that's good.

[A]

So if you had to put your role in a word or two, what would it be?

[C]

The doer.

[A]

All right. And you mentioned investing is Chris's thing. Are you privy to your family investments or not?

[C]

No, I would like to be not only involvement wise, but also I would love to increase my knowledge of investments in general because as of right now, it's. It's pretty minimal. That wasn't something I was exposed to growing up. He has had a financial advisor. The same one for how long? Chris.

[B]

He was my parents financial advisor. And it's been there, I don't know, since I was a teenager or something.

[C]

His grandmother's financial advisor, his parents. Financial advisor? Yeah. Really? And so when we got married, what, eight years ago by marriage, he became my financial advisor as well.

[A]

He's your financial advisor? In law. What's this guy's name? Please don't tell me it's Chet.

[C]

Leonard.

[B]

Leonard.

[A]

Leonard.

[C]

Is that, is that just as bad as Chet?

[A]

I'm about to find out. Is he independent or does he work for a firm?

[B]

No, he's Edward Jones.

[A]

Right, Leonard, you piece of.

[C]

So I've tried to Insert myself with, you know, being included on the accounts, getting a login, being a part of annual review meetings. But any emails or questions or updates or summaries are still never sent to me. They're always sent to Chris, so I'm still.

[A]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Why is that? I don't know Chris.

[B]

I haven't dug in to see who's on the, like, notifications, automatic notifications on the accounts.

[C]

But he lives on the east coast, and he recently came to our state to visit some clients, including Chris's parents. And Chris knew that he was coming in town? I didn't know that he was coming in town. I've never met Leonard, so I feel not included.

[A]

How else do you feel about this whole relationship?

[C]

Not. Not positively at all.

[A]

What do you feel?

[C]

Marginalized, Disrespected, Pushed aside? Not important.

[A]

Okay. I want to hear more about Leonard and the whole financial situation. I think it would help me to take a look at the numbers. Chris, you mentioned the net worth section, so I'm going to ask you to read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire first box, please.

[B]

Okay, so we have assets at $893,500. Investments, $634,624. Savings, $33,850. Debt at $211,856. Total net worth, $1,350,118.

[A]

Okay, $1.3 million in net worth. What do you think about all of those numbers, Chris?

[B]

I don't think very much about the investments and the assets, because those aren't liquid that we can tap into. And so what I tend to be a whole lot more focused on is the. The savings. And the savings is, you know, just the checking and savings account combined, which.

[A]

Is roughly 33, 34,000 bucks. What do you think of that?

[B]

It's not the. The number in it that makes me nervous. It's the. The burn rate.

[A]

Okay, so do you feel good or bad? The.

[B]

The number I think is good. That's kind of like a goal. I would like it to be a stable number instead of a declining one.

[A]

All right. And what about you, Natalie? How do you feel about those numbers?

[C]

I feel positively okay. I know that after giving birth the first time, I. My work was set back a little bit, and even more so after the second child, and I've just kind of accepted that that is a temporary part of life that I cannot contribute financially. Kids cost money, especially when they're Younger. And so I feel just fine about the numbers. I'm not stressed out at all.

[A]

All right, let's take a look at the income this time I'm going to ask you, Natalie, to read off the combined gross monthly income, please.

[C]

13,696.

[A]

Okay. So that means that combined you make a household annual income of $164,000 per year. By a show of hands, who knew that number?

[C]

Ish.

[A]

Okay, hold on. Chris has his hand up immediately. Okay, Chris, you knew the number 164k? Yep. Natalie, what is number did you think.

[C]

I was not aware until we filled out the CSP together how much Kris was making this. This current year?

[A]

What did you think that you made as a household together?

[C]

Closer to 180.

[A]

180 and you make 164. I'm going to count that as not knowing your income.

[C]

Okay, deal.

[A]

Off by like 50 bucks. All right. Even off by like 3,000. 5,000. Okay, fine. 15,000 is a lot of money.

[C]

I will take shared responsibility for that lack of knowledge.

[A]

That's okay. I mean, again, like 50% of the people I talk to don't even know their own household income. So you hit the statistic purely on the head. That's fine. Who's the one who makes 12,000 bucks a month? That's you, Chris. Okay. And then, Natalie, it shows you as making 960amonth. Is that correct?

[C]

Yes. Up until this month, that's correct.

[A]

Okay, so that's like partially from your business, which you are doing part time. Is. Is that accurate? Okay. All right, great. So let's look at the rest of the numbers. In the CSP, we have fixed costs at 81%. What do you think about that number?

[B]

Too high.

[C]

Way too high.

[A]

Too high. Okay, I agree. It's pretty high. Let's take a look at the rest. Savings indeed are zero. And guilt free spending indicates it's 9% at $818, but I'm not sure I believe that. Is it higher?

[B]

Yeah, I wouldn't say the guilt free part is higher, but it's. The spending's higher.

[A]

The spending part is higher. Okay. Yeah. It's not guilt free because you are feeling guilty about it.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

So you are spending more than you make every single month?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know that?

[B]

I knew that.

[C]

I've had trouble believing it because in my occasional check ins, once or twice a month in our accounts, they seem steady to me.

[A]

And when you say accounts, do you mean checking account?

[C]

Checking and savings.

[A]

Ah, wait, savings.

[C]

We have a checking account and A savings account.

[A]

I get it, but why are you looking at your savings account?

[C]

Because I'm secretly hoping we, in trying to build up enough to have a comfortable cushion for Chris and or in the next several months, get a different vehicle for myself.

[A]

But how would your savings account change? There's zero dollars a month going towards your savings.

[C]

Occasionally I'll put 100, $200 in there, like once a quarter.

[A]

Sloppy.

[C]

It is sloppy.

[A]

Does the financial system feel sloppy?

[C]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

All right. Like throwing a little bit here and a little bit there and like, on a quarterly basis.

[C]

Oh, I hate that. It should be an automatic withdrawal from the checkings to the savings.

[A]

Okay, I agree. Why have you not automated money into your savings account?

[B]

We had done that a while back when, you know, we were trying to save up for a large purchase. And then it got to the point where the checking account was getting down to, like, $5,000 and we could potentially, you know, not clear checks for daycare and mortgage and said, whoa, whoa, we need to, you know, pull back on the rate. And I think we just ended up not putting any more in savings on a regular basis.

[A]

Okay, so you stopped it because it was getting too tight. Okay, I can understand that. And then what is this thing about, Chris, you didn't use to see the value of a savings account? Why?

[B]

Well, with interest rates, what they were having it in, checking versus savings is not a financial difference.

[A]

The point of a savings account is not really to accumulate the interest. That's not what it's there for. The interest is nice. Whatever. A lot of times you're losing money to inflation. It's just to have it symbolically and ideally physically separate, because then it's just not tapped. It's like a junk drawer. You put stuff in a junk drawer. It's just junk. It's sloppy. But you have things in different drawers. Perfect. I know where all the knives are, et cetera. You know, it tells me a lot when I learned that Natalie and Chris are not contributing to their savings. Right now they have about $34,000 saved, which is a good start, but they're not building on it. They. There's no system. There's no regular habit of putting money aside. That's how most people are. They literally say, oh, I'll try to save more. We should try to save more. Try. What does that word mean? I never used that word in my life. Try. Either I'm going to do it or I'm not. I'm not going to try to brush my teeth. I'm not going to try to breathe oxygen. Hey Ramit Sethi, remember to breathe oxygen tonight. Why? Why don't you just do it? In fact, saving is actually easier than trying so many other things because you can set it up to happen automatically. Now, when you are only spending and not saving, even a decent cushion can feel like it is disappearing. It's basically de accumulating. And human beings hate seeing a number go down, especially men. And for someone like Chris who already feels anxious about money, that can create this constant feeling of scarcity. So when a big expense comes up, something like a home repair or medical bill, it doesn't just feel bad, it feels like a threat. It's like money is going away and there's no plan. So yes, Chris's reaction might seem extreme from the outside, but once you look at their financial system, it starts to make a little bit more sense. What I want to know is why aren't they saving anything? And that's what we're going to get into next. Stay with me. Okay, what does your inbox look like right now? Don't worry, I'm not judging that you have high priority emails from work and promos from Chipotle all lumped together in the same inbox. But how about this? It's time for a new year new inbox. Here is the actual tool that I use to manage my own email. Superhuman Mail is an AI native email and calendar for busy professionals and teams. It helps you write emails faster, turns your rough thoughts into clear messages in your own voice. It actually automatically drafts follow ups and schedules replies so nothing falls through the cracks and keeps your inbox organized so conversations that matter don't get buried. And my favorite part, everything you do in your inbox is connected to a keyboard shortcut. You can fly through emails, dozens of emails in minutes, and your fingers never leave the keyboard. It's incredibly fast. So if you are upgrading one system this year, I recommend you make it your inbox. My team loves it. I love it. For a limited time, Superhuman Mail is offering my listeners you two months free if you sign up before January 31st. If you want a new year new inbox, go to superhuman.com ramit and try it for yourself. Guys, this tool is absolutely amazing. I've used it for years. I cannot say enough good things about it. It [e-mail] Ramit if you run your own business, I want to propose that this year you focus on improving your internal systems. There are so many business owners who are burning themselves out trying to do payroll, hr, all that paperwork you don't need to live like this. Instead, start 2026 off on the right foot with Gusto. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses. It's all in one remote, friendly. It's incredibly easy to use so you can pay, hire onboard and support your team from anywhere. They offer automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, workers, computer 401k matches. You name it, they can help. Plus, it's quick and easy to switch to Gusto. Just transfer your existing data and get up and running fast. There's no hidden fees, no surprises. They are the trusted Choice by over 400,000 small businesses. And yours could be next. Try gusto [e-mail] Ramit and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at guests. Gusto.com Ramit One more time Gusto.com Ramit so you have 4.7 months of living expenses in your emergency fund. What do you think about that?

[C]

I think having three to four months of emergency living expenses in a separate account is a wonderful idea.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

My assumption is that the number that you're seeing is also including your checking, which is, you know, what we use regularly for all of our bills. Right. Chris's invisible comfortable number is $10,000 in the checking.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And do you, it seems like from your facial expression, you disagree with that.

[C]

I don't disagree or agree. I guess I'm more so just making a point that I don't know what makes $10,000 his comfort zone.

[A]

Why don't you ask him?

[C]

How about you ask him, Chris, what makes $10,000 your comfort mark?

[B]

Well, with the combined fixed monthly expenses and what is coming in from my paycheck, I want to make sure that there is a sufficient cushion so that there's no risk of any overdraft. That cushion is about the size of a paycheck.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So 7,000 plus a two week paycheck after taxes is about that amount.

[C]

Okay, well, next time just explain that to me.

[A]

That was, that was a good explanation. I appreciate watching that. I'm curious because, you know, I said, hey, why don't you ask him? And your response was, I've already asked him. But it seemed like you had not gotten that answer before. Why is that?

[C]

I don't know. In fact, it's, it's something that we kind of joke about sometimes. Chris's invisible $10,000, Mark, I don't think it's invisible.

[A]

It's quite obvious to me. Like, to me, I would probably do similar thing.

[C]

No, it, it. The rationale behind it makes complete sense.

[A]

You've never gotten that rationale before?

[C]

Correct.

[A]

What was the response you got back?

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I might not have had the ability to verbalize the specific reason. I've always kind of just felt like you gotta have enough to cover plus a cushion. But without looking at the numbers, like, I guess it's been harder for me to verbalize and explain that.

[A]

Either of you use ChatGPT?

[B]

Not really.

[C]

Not really.

[A]

I've had experiences, whether it be using CHAT GPT or hiring somebody to clean my house or. Or work at my company. And in my head I'm like, yeah, just like do this and do that. Like, yeah, it'll like, just make it look good. And then they don't do what I want because I never actually told them exactly what I want. It was just up here and I get back a result and I'm dissatisfied. But in part it's my fault because I was not clear with what I was asking and I was not clear with what output I wanted. It was like a lot of swirled up feelings. One of the things that I want us to do is to be able to shine a light on these opaque feelings and these opaque beliefs we have about money. It's actually okay if you want to have 10k in your checking. It's okay if you want to have 15k. I don't mind. But we have to be able to articulate why. Why? There's got to be a logic. The answer might even be, look, rationally it makes sense for us to have 10k. And I always want a buffer just in case. And My number is 25%. Fine. But we got to be able to talk about it. How do you both feel about that principle?

[B]

Definitely.

[C]

Very logical.

[A]

Okay, great, great. That's part of what having these numbers in front of us helps us do. So let's continue on. I noticed that Your debt is $211,000. Is that just a mortgage? That's it. Fantastic. All right, and let's take a look at the fixed costs because I'm curious about this. 81%. So you have a mortgage of 2,000 bucks, which is pretty low. Daycare is relative. I mean, that's a big cost. As it goes in your fixed cost, that's $2,000. Looking at the rest, insurance, about a thousand. Okay. Car payment is 200. So what is that, just gas?

[B]

Yeah, that's just gas.

[A]

All right, nice. Groceries at $1,118. Okay, close at 100. All right. Phone 127. Subscriptions 161. Nothing jumps out to me. It's just that you have daycare. If we drop it to zero, your fixed costs drop to 58%. So there you go.

[C]

Yeah, it's the daycare. It's killing us.

[A]

Okay, you knew that, Natalie. Chris, did you know that? Yeah.

[B]

I mean, when. When I see one daycare payment being equal to two weeks of my work after taxes, that just hurts.

[A]

It hurts in what way?

[B]

I always think about it as, after you take into account fixed expenses, how many days of work does it take me to actually make a hundred dollars that I can spend guilt free? And when that number is, you know, many, many days, that's just like demoralizing.

[A]

Do you remember when you were younger, did you used to count things by the number of quarters it would cost you or the number of hours of work at like an entry level job that it would cost you to afford this sandwich? Did you used to do anything like that? Sure.

[B]

Back when I was younger, I was mountain biking and climbing and that kind of stuff. And like, how many days do I have to work in order to, you know, buy this new whitewater kayak that, you know, I need to get because.

[A]

I broke my last one. I also did the thing based on quarters because, you know, when I was a little kid, it was like, how many arcade games would this be worth? And then I went to college and it was, how many loads of laundry is this Taco at Jack in the Box costing me? I stopped doing it because I found that it really was scarcity based thinking. It was the kind of thing a lot of people who work hourly jobs, they'll. They think like this all the time. And it really impedes their ability to ever enjoy anything where they're not working because they're like, oh, I'm at a picnic in the park with my family. I could be earning $27. The other thing, when you tell me it hurts, that's a very interesting word. As it relates to money. I will say that I have tried to orient my finances in a way that very little hurts me. I would say it doesn't feel good if I ever incur a late fee that I can't get waived. I'm just like, God, Ramit, that was really stupid. But especially when I think about kids and childcare, I almost think like, what a gift. What a gift to be able to pay for our kids, to be safe and to learn from other kids and to be taken care of and to be entertained. And then they come back to us safely and we can take care of them as well. How does that strike you?

[B]

I mean, totally agree with that. Because that's the exact rationale that we use to say, yeah, it's going to hurt financially, but it's in the best interests of our kids. And so we're going to do it.

[C]

Anyways, not only in the best interest of our kids, but also for, you know, my sanity and mentality.

[B]

We knew full well what we were getting into, and we just dove in.

[A]

Okay. All right. Finally, I want to talk about the investments. $634,000 of investments. First of all, how'd you get that much? Because you're not investing that much right now.

[B]

My grandmother lived on a big farm and sold that farm when the nearby town was encroaching to a developer. And she set up accounts for the grandkids. Extremely fortunate to have that. It allowed me to get through college without debt. It allowed us to put 40% down on our house. And, you know, there was still a lot of investments. And when I was a kid, If I got $20, 10 of it was going to get put towards the investments. I invested and set aside money to an extreme degree when I was younger.

[A]

Hold on. How extreme?

[B]

Whenever I want to buy something, it's. I sit and think about it and wait like a month to see, like, do I really want this, or is. Is that going to go away? So that often means I don't buy a whole lot of stuff. And so I was just packing it away into savings.

[A]

Chris, I'm gonna put these numbers back up on screen. When you look at these numbers, do you feel safe?

[C]

Do you.

[A]

You feel anxious? What do you feel?

[B]

Not so much anxious. I mean, I think they seem okay, but they also didn't really align with how I saw the changes in the accounts over the months. And so that's why we went ahead and added a little bit of extra information off to the side there.

[A]

So here's what Chris added. Some balances on the credit cards. 916 bucks for Chris. For Natalie, $5,555. There's some bank stuff. Total spending 11,800 after tax income is 8,800. And so you are spending $3,000 more than you make. That's a problem. What do you think about that, Natalie?

[C]

I look at the numbers and I hear what Chris is telling me, but I just think if that were actually the case, we'd be broke. We wouldn't have any money in our checking or savings Right.

[A]

It's a little trickier than that. It's a good question, though. This is a very common thing. I'll speak to people who are less than two months away from running out of money, and they have no idea. And there are lots of reasons that this can happen. At the most complicated level, if you think about, like, population decline, you know, you've heard of countries like, even the US or certainly Korea, China, like, they're having less babies. And so you can kind of project the future and you know, the exact year where population will be declining in a way that is almost irrecoverable. You can see it happening decades away, but you go to the store, you go to the restaurant, it's no different to you or me, but it's still happening. It's pure math. That's the same thing on the personal finance level. You can be spending more than you make, but you have a bit of a buffer. Other countries have time and some population. You have a savings account, you have a checking account. You have money coming in and money going out. And sometimes those expenses are every six months or every 12 months, like your auto registration or whatever. So it kind. It's like water in a river. It's flowing. It's not like it stops here and then it starts and it stops, it's flowing, which makes it a little more difficult to see clear patterns.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

But if we look at the math, you are spending $3,000 more than you make. So by pure Math, in approximately 10 months, you are out of money in your checking and savings account. How do you both feel about that? Natalie?

[C]

Yeah. That's scary. That doesn't sound good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

First time you understood that.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. And Chris, did you know that before now?

[B]

Oh, yeah. And so we, you know, pad that at the end of the year with, you know, end of year bonuses and then tax return, and those come in, and they boost the numbers back up and then around, you know, October, November, and I start getting nervous about how low it is and get on the horn about, like, we gotta spend less, we gotta spend less. Kind of, you know, household austerity measures at that point.

[A]

And how does that go over?

[B]

It doesn't go over that great. But, you know, Natalie can see it more easily because the number is low. And so I see the trend line and Natalie sees the number. And only when we get to the end of the year do both of our red flags are up. And then that one. That's when it becomes a lot easier to say we really need to spend less.

[A]

What do you both notice as you're.

[C]

Saying this out loud, we're understanding each other more?

[A]

I agree. You're both starting to see each other's perspective. Chris, do you see why Natalie has been kind of surprised by your alarm around money? Yeah.

[B]

And I've. I've said before that it's, you know, it's the burn rate, but I definitely understand her retorting with but the numbers pretty high. And it was kind of like that last year. What do you mean we. How. How's it changing, Chris?

[A]

I would say Natalie intuitively understands burn rate, but probably not in the way that you do.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

So, like, Chris is like the burn rate, and Natalie's like, yeah, like burning, but, like, we also have a bunch of money in the checking account, like. Right. You're not really connecting in part because there's these technical terms and jargon that are being used, and it's not like, let's speak to each other in just plain English.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Obviously, we want to connect and meet each other where we are. Yes. And I don't think that's been happening until now. That's what I can help with. And then obviously, also, we want to be able to understand the basic language of personal finance, because like any thing, whether it be parenting or whether it be speaking Spanish, we have to learn the basic language in order to be conversant in it. Okay, so we're gonna try to do both. This investment number, I need to come back to it. So you have this money primarily from your grandmother. It's $634,000. And let's not forget that you are contributing 900 plus 900 post tax. So 1800amonth, you are investing.

[B]

There's an additional there. The company that acquired my firm is an esop, and I'm not vested in that yet, but they target and have been hitting about 12 to 15% of income a year into the ESOP account. And so that will come in later.

[A]

12 to 15%.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a lot.

[B]

It's been really good. And we're hitting our targets this year, so.

[A]

Damn. 1500 bucks a month?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yo, that's a lot of money.

[B]

I know.

[C]

That's my man.

[A]

Real quick, if you've never heard of an ESOP before, it stands for an employee stock ownership plan. It's essentially a program that allows employees to own shares in the company that they work for, often as part of their compensation package. And now, with any investment, there are pros and cons. The pros here include being a tax advantaged Retirement plan. The risks are concentration risk, meaning you have too much of your financial life tied up in one company, like your job and retirement, plus a lack of liquidity, which is typical of most retirement accounts. If this is you, if you are the rare person who has an esop, you can look up esop, E S O P online for more information. Let's get back to the conversation. So you're making like a lot more money than we originally saw here. You're investing a lot more money. How come nobody's happy? Y' all want to fix it?

[B]

That would be great.

[A]

Nothing worse than a unhappy rich person. I'm going to fix this shit and you're going to be happier and that's the way it's going to be.

[B]

All right, love that sounds good.

[A]

All right. Look at these freaking numbers. Leave aside the esop, leave aside all this other. If we just take the 634,000 which you have invested currently, okay. And we take your current trajectory of how much you're investing today, by the time you're 65, how much are you going to have? Chris, do you know, I forget what.

[B]

The the last numbers that I've seen were, but I know it was somewhere near 2.

[A]

2. Who did your math? Leonard? Leonard, you suck at math. Oh, you know what? He might be right after he accounts for all his fees that he's taking off the top. Leonard. Well, let me put it this way. When I calculate investment returns, I Never calculate a 1% expense for a financial advisor because why the would I pay 1%? Aum, how much are you paying?

[B]

I don't know the specific answer because he's told me like $500 for a year, but I don't. I imagine he's that's hiding the ball a bit.

[A]

I always find it amazing that people will fill anxious about money that you will use words like hurt and like it will be catastrophizing. But they will literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees and not even know how much they are paying and be totally okay with it.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

The way we calculate it, once Leonard loses his job, which as far as I'm concerned, I can make a call right now. I love firing financial advisors. But anyway, we calculate that when the time comes to for you to be 65, Chris, at your current trajectory, assuming no raises, you will have $6.3 million. What do you make of that?

[B]

If we can get on that trajectory as opposed to the one that own now, that would alleviate all of my long term concerns and that's great. And now we're just making sure that, you know, the burn rate isn't too high on the checking and savings, and that's a whole lot easier of a problem to deal with.

[A]

Agreed. Natalie, I want to loop you in here. What are you hearing right now?

[C]

That's nice to see his face, look a little more positive. That makes me happy.

[A]

Do you feel connected to these numbers at all?

[C]

The investment numbers? No.

[A]

Yeah, I could see you looked a bit withdrawn or maybe like, oh, this is like them talking about the investments.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Not me. Am I reading that correctly?

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Okay. And. And is that because this is from his grandma and he's got the relationship with the advisor and you're not particularly involved?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Do you want to be involved?

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Okay. Okay. How long have you two been married?

[C]

8 and a half years.

[A]

Okay. Is there a prenup in place?

[C]

No.

[A]

So is there any objection to talking about the money, sharing the money, discussing all details of the money, the investment.

[B]

Specifically, and no concern.

[A]

Okay. It just has not happened.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

I can see why that would be a major problem.

[C]

Chris is really busy. Right. He puts a lot of time and energy into work for us.

[A]

Are you, are you now defending him?

[C]

I guess I just want to acknowledge, take a minute to acknowledge how much I appreciate you.

[A]

I appreciate that we are talking about millions and millions of dollars.

[C]

I know. About a year ago we had the conversation of switching how we do our investments, not having Leonard. Right. And correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, your response was, it would take a lot of time and energy to change things over.

[A]

Hold on, I'm feeling hurt now. Now I'm feeling pain. The amount of lock in that financial companies have over everyday people blows my mind. I'll talk to people, I'll talk to a black couple. They'll be like, oh, I have this Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo hates minorities. They actively discriminate, they have been cited. And they're like, I'm like, why the are you with this bank? And they go, well, you know, I've had it since I was a kid. I go, what the. I don't mind if you have a teddy bear as a 45 year old, but your old Wells Fargo account. And then meanwhile they're getting gouged for freeze every fees every single month. Then they have a financial advisor, Chet, or in this case, Leonard, comes around once every two years like one of those galloping salesmen. Does nothing, doesn't talk to the wife, won't involve her, not even clear how much you're paying. And people go, well, it would be a lot of work. Damn. If I was a multimillionaire, I would pay somebody to come in and just do this for me. There's so many ways of doing it. Here's the point. I'm trying to get you to get aggressive. This time thing doesn't work on me. It just doesn't. Because this stuff is not that hard. You can knock it out in a couple of weeks. We're talking about millions of dollars. What could be more worth it? All right. And more importantly, we're talking about the two of you actually being unified for the next 40 years.

[C]

So the sooner we start, the better.

[A]

Yes. Let's not rush. Let's try to figure out what's happened here. But I would like to understand how we got here and where do we want to go. Notice the communication issues. Chris is fluent in the language of finance. He can talk asset allocation, financial planners, year end cash flow. To him, that feels like being responsible. But Natalie does not speak that language. She's smart and she cares. She wants to be involved, but she doesn't have the same financial background. So when Kris starts rattling off numbers, they don't connect with her. When he talks to their financial advisor without her, she feels excluded. In money and relationships, being excluded is a huge no, no. It is an instant red flag. Stop everything, fix it. And you can actually see the effect of their communication style. When you look at their checking account, think about it. They spend it down all year, they refill it then, but they never actually talk about how it works and what it means. This is happening right in front of them. But because they don't have a shared language around money, they're experiencing the same situation in completely different ways. Now I do want to say that this is one of the most common dynamics I see. One partner handles the finances and, and they assume if there's a problem, I'll bring it up. The other assumes if I don't hear anything, we're fine. But all of this is shrouded in darkness. Neither of them has ever talked openly about what they want and what they need. You know, most of the time people don't even know what they want with money because they don't know the basics of personal finance. If you want to get good with money, you need to know the basics. This is actually pretty easy. I can help you do it fast.

[C]

Fast.

[A]

I have a program called Money Coaching. It's going to help you understand the basics of your money. And if you're in a couple, get on the same page with your partner, you could stop just worrying about money and start actually using money to live your rich life. Sign up for money [e-mail] money coaching. As for Natalie and Chris, a lot of their fights about money are around the lack of shared expectations. So I'm wondering what would it take to to get on the same page with how they talk about money and make decisions about money and even dream about their rich life. Next we're going to dig into that. One of my coworkers uses 12 different tools for his notes, his documents and his schedule. 12. And I was like, why? Why do you do that? And isn't it a little complicated? This is basically my nightmare, not only having 12 different user interfaces, but having to remember which one pairs with which which problem I have. That's one of the reasons that I like Notion. It's flexible for my team at work and simple enough that you can use it to plan your weekends. Notion brings all of your notes, documents and projects into one connected space that just works. It's seamless. It's flexible, powerful, and actually fun to use. With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work. And now with Notion Agent, your AI doesn't just help with work, it finishes it with a single prompt. Notion Agents forms a plan, executes it, and will reassess for any snags you assign the task. Your agent does the work. It is that simple. And there's a reason that over 50% of Fortune 500 companies use Notion. Try Notion now with notion [e-mail] ramit that's all lowercase letters. Notion.com ramit to try your new AI teammate notion agent today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show notion.com Ramit you know two of the areas that I love to spend money on. Convenience and also health. That means I will happily spend on things that make my life easier or improve my health and fitness. And if something actually combines those two money dials, I love it. I'm talking about things like personal trainers, a personal chef, or or this episode's sponsor, zocdoc. Who wants to waste time on the phone looking for a doctor's appointment? ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so you can find someone you love. Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care or one of the other 200 plus specialties offered on Zocdoc, you can easily search by specialty or even symptom and book in network appointments or with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. You can choose an in person or video visit and even see verified patient reviews. Get to know more about your doctor before you see them and when you're ready, you can see their real time availability and click to book instantly. So stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to Zocdoc.com ramit to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's z O C Doc.com Ramit Zocdoc.com Ramit Big thanks to Zocdoc for sponsoring this message. What are you gonna do with 6 million bucks at 65?

[B]

Part of that amount is, you know, the, the kids college funds say probably about 80k of that is the kids college funds, you know, so that's definitely gonna be a big expense. My knees aren't getting any better and so the sooner I can retire and you know, enjoy that, the better.

[A]

Natalie, what about you? What are you gonna do with $6.3 million at age 65?

[C]

At 65, our kids will be more than taken care of. That's not a, that's not a concern for me. I want to do things that are solely focused on the two of us.

[A]

Most people do not simply lock their money up and let it sit there and spend nothing until 65. That's not the way human beings work. Okay, What I am trying to just understand is like have either of you ever dealt with $6 million?

[C]

No.

[A]

That's a tremendous amount of money. So right now day to day existence is focused on questions like do we need to transfer $1,000 over from this etc. Right. And I get that it's, it's prime time parenting. Childcare is expensive. One primary earner, that's totally normal at this age. But you also have to realize like you got a turkey in the oven that is going to turn into $6.3 million approximately. So we have to put things in perspective that if we are arguing over a thousand dollars, like what are we actually doing here?

[C]

Doesn't it kind of sound upset about that larger picture?

[A]

Yes, very few people do because we are so comfortable playing small. Hey, I want 10,000 in the checking account. No, I don't. I think 8,000 and you go 10, 15 years arguing about two grand.

[C]

I don't like playing small at some, at most times I feel like it's a necessity.

[A]

Is it a necessity to play small now?

[C]

Until we put a game plan in place to boost our savings and have more cash on hand, so we're not losing $3,000 every month.

[A]

That's a good answer. I agree with that.

[C]

And if you did that, when that's in place, I would love to think big.

[A]

Love it. That's a fair request. Chris, how do you feel?

[B]

I mean, I kind of feel the same way. And a lot of that is because, you know, a lot of that net worth is, you know, locked up in our house that has doubled in value but was built in the 1970s. So I have to pull out of the checking and savings to fix all the stuff that breaks constantly in this house that's now worth twice as much as we paid for. All feels like that's cool. That's money over there that doesn't exist. Right now I'm working with this, which is a whole lot less.

[A]

Yeah, you all are living the plight of many Americans. You happen to be in a much better position than many Americans. But many Americans have paper wealth. They're in a house that's worth like five times more than they bought it for in whatever year. Yeah, they may be wealthy on paper, but when it comes to buying groceries or taking a trip, they're like, where's the cash? Right. And I can see that is the case for you. Although you have options that many others do not. When you look at the csp, did anything surprise you in going over these numbers on our first glance?

[C]

Besides the $0 to savings, I mean, it's really just those, the high fixed costs at 81% that in general, that jolts me.

[A]

Yeah. You know that many parents have unusually high costs when their kids are young.

[C]

I mean, that makes sense.

[A]

What we need to do when we look at this, at least the way I interpret it, is, hey, we're going to have high structural fixed costs for X number of years. That is life. We have to accept it. What, what is the trade offs? It means we're probably going to save less. We're probably going to have to adjust our investments for a while. Probably going to have to cut back on guilt free spending. But we know that it is a temporary thing. Financially. We're putting more here, but we know it is a finite amount of time.

[B]

And we're already working on that. Natalie has just started doing substitute teaching and has, you know, just what it's been like two weeks now. So I mean, we're, we're putting in an action. We know that we have to do something.

[A]

Cool. All right, if we end our conversation right now and you go back right to the way you were, what do you think Your kids would learn about money as the years go on from.

[B]

The two of you, from me, I think they would get the idea that it's something to be stashed away.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I suppose the example that I would be setting is be frugal as possible in all areas as possible in as many areas as possible because of the constant reiteration of spend less or make more that continually comes from Chris.

[A]

And maybe investing is something that dad does not. Mom?

[C]

Yes, Chris.

[A]

I'm very curious about what you remember your family saying about money when you were younger.

[B]

I don't remember a whole lot specifically, but, you know, we were there getting our wonderful advice from Leonard.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Um, and I really took to heart the concept of I would say, I want to spend money on something, and my parents would say, do you really want that? And it's a fair question to ask. And I was just like, do I want that?

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I don't know. And so that's probably a lot of the reason why I will spend a long time researching things before I buy them and then maybe not buy them at all, because that. That is a pretty core tenant of how I view spending money.

[A]

What age did they say, do you really need that?

[B]

It was probably, you know, like, when I wanted to buy something dumb in middle school. And it's a lot fairer of a question then, but it just hasn't left me.

[A]

You ever get really into certain things? Talking about, like, video games, musical instruments, skateboards?

[B]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I. My hobby is collecting hobbies, and so I would just get really into one thing, and then I'd shift and get really into the next thing. And I just went through the whole gambit of extreme sports.

[A]

Yep. When you look back, like, do you still do all of those sports?

[B]

No, I still have toes in them. You know, I still have my kayaks, and, you know, it's nice to go kayaking every once in a while. Less waterfalls, more relaxing stuff. Still do some climbing, mountain biking. It's just all to the. On the safer side of things. And I sold all my parachutes and wingsuits. That's out.

[A]

Wingsuits, like, you jump off the mountain like that?

[B]

Yep. Mountains and middle of the night off of antenna towers.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's crazy. The reason I'm asking about these hobbies and if you still keep a toe in them, I had a hunch, this idea that something just clicked for you when your parents said, do you really need it? My antenna go up when I hear that, because, you know, a Lot of parents say that to their kids. Some 14 year old kid wants some bike or something. Do you really need. Yes, I need it, mom. But the fact that you like dove into it, double, triple, quadruple down, and that story is one that you still have here. Yeah. Even though you make a very high income, that tells me that perhaps this is systemic across different parts of life. That you get really into something and importantly you don't actually stop doing it. You keep a toe there and you add something else on, which tells me you're probably keeping some of that 14 year old Chris views on money. Even though your financial situation has drastically changed. How does that strike you?

[B]

I don't disagree with that.

[A]

And Natalie, I always like to ask the partner because they always know best. What do you think, Natalie?

[C]

That makes total sense to me. He's always been a very methodical, planning, calculated person when it comes to large financial purchases.

[A]

How did your grandmother get so wealthy?

[B]

My grandpa was, he was an accountant and had his own firm and you know, they did pretty well.

[A]

Was this in Colorado as well?

[B]

No, this was back east and my grandfather passed away when I was like 5 years old and grandma's still kicking.

[A]

Wow. Still? Yeah.

[B]

She's 95, Chris.

[C]

She will be 98 in February.

[A]

Love you, Granny. Great job with the investments.

[C]

She's the best.

[A]

All right. Does she ever talk to you about money?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I want to know what somebody from that generation says about money.

[B]

When she gave us the grandkids, you know, a nice pool of money to have from the sale of the farm, it was, you can use this for three things. You can buy a house, start a business, or go to college with it and, or any combination of those three things it was talked about is like, this is not just screwing around money, this is do something positive with it and turn it into something.

[A]

And as, as grandma's saying that Chris like is looking depressed at the floor and he slowly starts unpeeling his red bull wing suit. He's like, all right, Granny, you watched that YouTube video?

[C]

Dang. He's on it.

[A]

Now. Did your grandmother know that she was wealthy? Yeah, she knew. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And did your parents know, I assume they inherited bunch of money to. Did they know they were wealthy?

[B]

The inheritance hasn't come through yet, cuz luckily grandma's still alive. Right.

[A]

But. Oh, so your grandma has not passed over that money to your parents and.

[B]

No. So I mean there was a, an account that was established for the grandkids but not for her kids because they were in a solvent and Stable financial situation.

[A]

And wait, isn't your parents, like, 70 years old now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does your family talk about wealth as a wealthy family would?

[B]

I would say that we do not. The conversations were a lot more focused on, you know, make sure you have a. A good job and, you know, when you go to school, make sure you go to school for something that is a good career path. And it was all conversations that would indicate to an outside listener that we're not talking about people that have money. We're talking about people who, you know, are starting. Trying to start from a lower level.

[A]

There you go. Bingo. I agree with that. Okay, so it's so interesting to. To contextualize the messaging that you have received, which is great messaging, but also a bit off kilter with your actual financial position. Natalie, what do you remember about your family saying about money when you were younger?

[C]

I grew up with a single mom, so she was incredibly frugal. She had a credit card only for emergencies and would save up, you know, to buy something. We never went out to eat before school started. We went to the outlet mall, you know, a few towns away, to get, you know, cheap clothes. There was never fussing or a lot of conversation, you know, comparing to other people or families. I just picked up on the example that we live within our means and always try to do your best to get whatever you can.

[A]

Would you describe your socioeconomic status growing up as middle class, Lower middle class, Poor?

[C]

I would say lower middle class.

[A]

And how did you feel about that?

[C]

I didn't feel embarrassed. I didn't feel uncomfortable. I didn't feel like I was wanting either. My mom made sure that we had everything we needed.

[A]

Okay. I appreciate that. Is your mom still alive?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

How is she doing with money?

[C]

Good.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah. She was in the public school system her entire career, so she worked really hard to put money into savings for her retirement account so that she, quote, does not have to be a burden on her children when she is older.

[A]

What verbal messages did your mom give you about money? Did she say save? Did she say, we can't afford it? What kind of stuff did she say?

[C]

Both. It's important to save money, to purchase things that you know you're going to need. Plan ahead. There were many times when she said, we can't afford X, Y, or Z.

[A]

Did it say anything about men and money? A man is not a financial plan. Always save for a rainy day. You. You never know what will happen in a marriage. That kind of thing.

[C]

Yes. She has always wanted me to be financially stable and independent.

[A]

Are you independent financially if Chris were to disappear, like.

[C]

There's no Chris, and I have two children. No. I would not be able to financially take care of the kids.

[A]

You guys have a will?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And are you.

[B]

Insurance policies?

[A]

You have a. Oh, you have life insurance. Is that through Leonard?

[B]

Sure is.

[A]

Okay. All right. But you're a dependent on those policies and in the will, Natalie?

[B]

Yes, everything goes to Natalie and contingent is, you know, to the kids. Great.

[A]

When was the first time the two of you substantively talked about money?

[C]

Did we have that conversation at all before we got married?

[B]

I think we did. And it, like. I just wanted to made sure that it wasn't going to, like, surprise you, because I think at that time there was. It was still a pretty large sum.

[A]

What did you say, Chris? How'd you bring that up?

[B]

I. I imagine I would have, you know, said something like, you know, hey, this is. This is not like, money that we have to tap into, but just so you know, there's, you know, like 300 something thousand dollars in this account.

[A]

What would your reaction have been, Natalie?

[C]

Surprised. Slightly relieved in the sense of having a stable future.

[A]

Now, having known each other for 10 years and having grown up in different socioeconomic upbringings, have you discovered any surprising ways that the two of you treat money?

[C]

From my perspective, surprisingly, no.

[B]

We come at it from very different angles. But she comes at it as the, you know, be frugal because we, you know, really need to. And I come at it as the be frugal because that means you can save more.

[A]

Is that not the same thing?

[B]

It is. But, you know, for me, it wasn't like an out of necessity requirement. It was a voluntary thing.

[A]

You know, this is very interesting. You both are frugal, kind of for similar reasons. And I guess my question is, is it working?

[C]

Obviously not, because we're burning through. The burn rate is three grand a month.

[A]

If we fix that, is everything else fixed?

[B]

Pretty much, yeah. I mean, we got to deal with Leonard, right?

[A]

Yeah, we'll talk about Leonard, too. Should we just fix those two things and then we're good?

[C]

Yes, please.

[A]

Okay. The inheritance Chris got from his grandmother was life changing. I love that for him, and I applaud her generosity, but I think there was a missed opportunity. No one ever taught him how to use that money. And this is where I have a bone to pick with old rich people. Well, I have several bones, you nimbys preventing housing from being built in every city in America. But that's for another conversation. As for you giving a Fat check to your grandkids. What the hell is wrong with you?

[C]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You wrote your grandkids a check. That's so nice. I appreciate it, seriously. But how about teaching them how money actually works? Anyone can write a check, but actually teaching kids how money works is how true generational wealth really functions. My parents gave me generational wealth. They didn't give me a check, but they modeled how money works. My mom showed me how creative you can be without a lot of money. My dad helped me open up an investment account as a 14 year old, and he encouraged me to learn how investing works. That was far more valuable than my parents giving me a check for $5,000 or even $50,000. Oh, now I know what you're thinking, Ramit must be nice. You made a bunch of money and now you're just saying your parents could have given you a hug and it's all fine. If somebody gave you $50,000 right now, would you know exactly what to do with it? Would it cure your feelings of scarcity? Of feeling like you're behind? No. If we've learned anything from over 200 episodes on this podcast, the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with the amount in your bank account. Most people don't magically learn how to manage money just because they inherited some. They just stumble around like everybody else. They just have a little extra money in their checking account. I try to model this in my own life. Like, some of my author friends will call me up, they'll ask me for a blurb as a matter of personal policy. I don't do book blurbs, but I will offer them something way more valuable. I'll get on an unlimited number of calls with them, and I will help them with their marketing strategy. I'll help them promote their book. Or my nephews. They're 16 years old. I recently took them on a tour of Stanford, and I talked with them for days about why it makes sense to work really hard in high school. And I took them out to eat and I took them on a flying lesson. And when they were late for one of our events, I gave him some tough love. They don't just need a check. They need time. They need to see what's possible. And right now, I think Chris and Natalie are at that exact turning point. They're on track to have millions, but they are still treating money with a scarcity mindset. If you want to know how to change your mindset with money, that's coming up next. I asked my audience for their experiences with Facet. Here's what they said. Lauren wrote. We chose Facet after listening to your podcast and looking into them. We love the non salesy advice we get from our planner and their entire online platform is incredibly helpful to see our entire financial situation in one place. We can't thank you enough. It saved us thousands and thousands. Thank you for sharing. I'm super selective with the brands that we work with and I love getting feedback like this. Facet charges a flat membership fee for for financial planning, not a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals. Always a cfp, always a fiduciary who help you create a personalized financial plan and they can help with the important things like retirement planning, tax strategy, estate planning. Remember, financial planning isn't just for people with fancy trust funds. A lot of us can benefit from clearer financial plans and if you fall into these categories, Facet is here to help. Right now FASTT is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members and if you Invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days, they'll add $300 to your brokerage account. Head to facet.com ramit to see which membership Core plus or Complete is right for you. Again, let me give you that URL facet.com ramit I'm not a member of Facet and I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsem. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of similar outcomes. I asked my audience about their experience with Delete Me, a service that I personally use which removes your personal data from the Internet. Here's what they said. My former employer, a major journalistic outlet, used it for me and still does, and it wiped out what had been dangerously publicly available. Like many journalists, I'd gotten harassing messages and death threats, so this was good to have. Thank you for sharing. I hate that this is our reality, but I love that your privacy is being better protected. Now I want you to start off 2026 safer and smarter with the help of our friends at Delete Me. Delete Me is a subscription service that continually searches for and removes your data from the Internet. Things like full name, email, phone number, address, even your parents. Names gone. They've been the leading expert in personal information removal for the last 15 years. They use their own technology so your data is not outsourced to third parties. And they were actually named Wirecutter's number one Data removal service. I personally use and pay for Deleteme. And I love it, and I know you will, too. You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit and use promo code Ramit at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com Ramit code Ramit for 20% off. Before we do the numbers, what patterns do you notice that you have brought from your childhood into this relationship with money?

[B]

Chris, I think I brought.

[A]

A little.

[B]

Too much reluctance and skepticism on spending money.

[A]

Okay, great.

[C]

Natalie, Be conscious of the cash that you have and be frugal with what you have. Save up for what you need, and be creative with what you do have to make it stretch further.

[A]

You know, it's interesting hearing your lessons. I agree with everything you just said. I think that those are definitely messages you've brought in. I think some of those are good. Some of those maybe not. Not as good. Can you see the difference in your financial situation versus your childhood upbringing?

[C]

Yes, absolutely.

[A]

Let's name them. Your expenses. Are they higher or lower than your parents?

[C]

Higher.

[A]

Way higher. Childcare costs were not the same. Your house is a nice price, but I'm sure it was more expensive than what they paid. And on and on and on. Salaries also probably way higher.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay. Saving matters. There's no doubt about that. We live in a world where investing is much easier. You know, there's like, lowcost index funds, there's robo advisors, all kinds of stuff. But what I notice is we could essentially lift the way that you both treat money, plop it back 35 years ago, and it might slot somewhat similarly into how you were raised. Save money. Like, let's not get anything we don't need. Chris, I see you nodding your head. What do you notice?

[B]

Absolutely feels the same to me. And I think it would take a lot to break that free for my brain.

[A]

I mean, you're even using the same advisor.

[B]

I know. Yeah.

[A]

So, like, literally pick it, shift it, change a couple things, and here we are. Yeah, I don't mind a little bit of continuity. I love it. I love taking what the past generation had and keeping the best of it. I love that. And I like adapting to current scenario. So let's. Let's try to do that. I want to understand how you deal with money as it stands. Chris feels tighter when there is an unexpected expense and it causes you, Chris, to stop and to not be able to respond in multiple ways. And that causes conflict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Natalie, you said that when Chris Shuts down. It feels like losing your partner.

[C]

Oh, yeah. It takes our relationship down so many notches. We have to work to build it back up again. And it's so draining and depleting from our relationship. We work back and get there because we love each other, but it's a lot of work.

[A]

The metaphor you just shared is really powerful. And you even used your hand. You said it takes our relationship down notches, and then we have to work back up. It's almost like I can see water draining from a bucket, and then you have to refill it over and over. And that reminds me of what happens by the end of the year with your finances. The money gets drained, and then hopefully we get this bonus or something and then we can make it another year.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And along the way, when it's draining, it's causing conflict, it's causing a wedge, it's causing tension. I would rather have that bucket stay steady or even just increase a little bit every single month.

[C]

Me, too. Ramit.

[A]

Okay, Natalie's on board. Chris, how about you?

[B]

Yeah, that's my goal. I always say it's not the number, it's the trend.

[A]

Okay, I hear you on that. I'm going to guess that phrase does not connect with Natalie. Natalie, am I right or wrong?

[C]

Correct.

[A]

It doesn't connect for me. It's.

[C]

It's the number and the trend, I suppose.

[A]

Is it. Is it any of those? Or is it like, I want to feel connected to my partner?

[C]

It's more so I want to feel connected to my partner.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

When. When one of us feels emotionally unstable, the other feels unstable as well. And our kids.

[A]

Yeah. Especially as they get older, after one of these things happens where there's an unexpected expense and then there's a conflict and a retreat. How do you both build. Build it back up the relationship?

[C]

I've tried many different things. Right. The thing that works currently is I don't engage because even words of support, you know, verbalizing. I'm here to talk. Would you like to talk? Tell me what you're thinking, what you're feeling. That currently does not even help. He's so fixated on what's wrong. So my current strategy is to be neutral and supportive from the background, making sure I'm helping with, quote, you know, his duties or his chores or making sure that he feels supported in other ways without, like, talking or trying to get him to open up and talk. So waiting for him to come to that mental slowdown so that we can work towards a positive arch again.

[A]

Okay, Chris. Do you see this as a problem? Yeah. Okay. What kind of stuff have you done to try to improve your responses to these unexpected expenses?

[B]

I've tried to bring myself back from the, you know, what's the worst case scenario that really. The catastrophizing. Right. Where if I don't know what's wrong, then I need to just, you know, try to get more information. But it's hard. I've always seen it as just a math problem, you know, in versus out. And when the big expenses come along, that's why we need to have more coming in than going out. And that just makes me think that these issues are going to come up no matter what. So you really need to fix the money issue. And so it becomes about the large expense and what could come after that. But then it also just shines a light on the. The burn rate.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that gets me concerned.

[A]

It all leads back to catastrophe. Yeah. This isn't like a minor problem, right. Oh, it's like, this is kind of annoying. Somebody's leaving candy wrappers somewhere. That's annoying. But whatever. This is a big problem. It's affecting your wife, it's affecting your kids, and it's creating a wedge in your relationship. And each time that bucket goes down, it becomes a little harder to refill. Yeah. So the kind of answer I might be looking for would be, I'm seeing an individual therapist. I'm working on inoculating myself by trying to deal with this unexpected expense, which is only like 50 bucks. And then I'm working on that exposure therapy, and then I'm going to increase it to the next $200 expense, et cetera. All these things that a great therapist can help you with. A coach, a book. But it's a strategic approach. If you recognize this is an issue and I need to really improve it, would you be open to trying some of those things?

[B]

I think that engineering, science, spreadsheets. Part of me is just like, okay, that's cool, but it's not going to solve a math problem.

[A]

I. I hear you loud and clear. And because I have so many friends that are engineers, they're in cs. Like, I grew up with these guys. I love these guys. I totally get that mindset. And we're going to look at the math, no doubt. But I can tell you that this is not just a math problem. It's actually here, psychology and mindset and actually here, feelings about money, which started almost certainly back in childhood. And I am willing to bet back with your grandmother and grandfather. So we'll tackle the math, but it goes way deeper than numbers.

[C]

That was really encouraging. Thank you. I think especially in this day and age, it's important for adult males to know that not only is it acceptable, but it's so helpful, not just for themselves, but for their entire family to think that way, you know?

[A]

Yeah. I so appreciate you saying that. I was just thinking yesterday I was thinking about masculinity in 2025 and 2026 and how different it is when I think about masculinity. The way that I grew up, it was like big muscles and, you know, cursing and just this sort of bro type stuff that we all kind of imagine. And when I think of it now, it's like, yeah, like, if you want to work out, that's awesome. And mental health and relationships with friends, like, all of it. All this stuff that would have been seen as, like, a little soft. I think we can all be very powerful, especially as a husband and a father, when you're like, yeah, like, I'm going to crush this math. I'm going to dominate these numbers. And also we go to therapy, and maybe I even go to therapy, and I can do all of these things. And so that's my approach with this as well. Have the two of you talked about what your rich life is?

[C]

We've floated around ideas but never sat down and wrote a list together.

[A]

You want to do it right now?

[C]

Heck, yeah. The first thing I have on my list is being able to hire a fix it person.

[A]

All right. I love that, Chris.

[B]

I would much rather, you know, go camping and biking with the kids.

[A]

Beautiful. Love that. Okay, that's awesome. Let me hear one individual one from each of you. Now.

[B]

I'd love to have an old project car to work on. You know, my buddies send me pictures of all their project cars that they're tearing apart and fixing. I'd love to do that too.

[A]

Okay. I love that.

[B]

That's cool.

[A]

Thank you for sharing that. And Natalie, what about for you?

[C]

I would love a kiln in our garage.

[A]

Guys, I'm loving this so far. So the reason I ask this is one, I love to see people think of money as a source of possibility because we have to be able to live a life that is bigger than simply paying our bills. Even if you have $100,000 in credit card debt, there has to be a future that is bigger than today. The other thing is I just like to see people smile. I like to see what gets you pumped. Tells me a lot about you. And more often than people think, there's actually a way to get some version of that. I want to look at some numbers. Okay. And I want to start off with the investments. So first of all, it's important that these investments become shared. They become collaborative. Right now, the way that I see it, it's almost like Natalie moved into Chris's apartment and there's no drawers for Natalie. It feels like we're living in Chris's apartment. But actually that's not the intention. Both of you have said you're more than willing to share and combine space and do everything together. I see the love. It's very obvious. But the investments have not been properly communicated. And the way I see it is this Leonard person is one symbolic representation of the old, the old approach to investments. Would you agree? I'm seeing nods from both of you. It's not just Leonard. I'm sure he's a very nice person. But it's that Leonard has been involved with the family finances and he hasn't properly communicated with both and on and on. And also he charges a crazy amount of money. So why? One of the best things that a couple can do is to do something tangible. That is also symbolic, saying, we are now doing this together. We are not going to keep things the way they were. Let's look at some numbers. How much do you think that Leonard is costing you in fees? Let's assume he charges 1%. We'll just assume. Keep the math easy. Over the next 20 years, how much will you pay in fees? I have $1 million. Good guess, Natalie. Natalie's eyes just went very bug eyed. How much did you think, Natalie, before you heard that number, he's.

[C]

He just guessed maybe 200k.

[A]

So 200k to 500k actually. Great range. Because the number as we calculate it is you'd pay about $397,000. Let's round to $400,000. Just to put that in perspective, that's $1,666 per month. Let's put it up on screen just so you can see how much you're all making every month. Now, I will admit I'm playing a bit of mathematical magic here. Let me admit that before everybody comes after me, most of that money is back end loaded. You pay the higher fees as your investments grow. Okay? So if you're paying 1% on like millions, that is a tremendous amount. And it's really focused on the end part of those 20 years, like the last five years, even the last two years. So when I just divide it out, that's Actually, not really. True, true. I'm just showing you the point that if you literally do nothing, that is approximately how much you will pay in fees and opportunity costs. And that number goes up if instead of 20 years, we do 30 years. How much do you think you'll pay in fees by 30 years?

[B]

Over a million.

[C]

That's exactly what I was thinking.

[A]

1.1 million, as we calculated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now we are really talking. And this is what financial advisors love, to have an older, wealthier person because they've had decades for their capital to accumulate. I don't mind if people want to hire a financial advisor if they have a large portfolio. A particularly complex situation. Okay. I just would never pay a percentage. I would never hire somebody from Edward Jones. I'd prefer you keep most of the money for yourself. Okay. That's my take. How do you both feel hearing those numbers? Chris?

[B]

Not surprising. And I had looked into the. Into moving things over, what was it, like a year or two ago, and I guess I just stalled out because there was some uncertainty about, you know, what, how do I do it?

[A]

How do you feel hearing it? Natalie, those numbers.

[C]

Oh, that pisses me off. Especially considering the current state that we're in and trying to figure out our short term needs.

[A]

Good. I like couples getting angry sometimes. I like it, especially if it's focused not at each other, but at like, hey, it's us as a team against the world.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Let's get this. We have a rich life vision. We got more work to do on that, but we know we want time with the kids. We probably want to spend less time fixing the house as long as we can comfortably afford it. And why are we paying all this money that's being invisibly siphoned away that we didn't even know?

[C]

Right.

[A]

That kind of anger is very constructive. When you make a change and then you. It reflects on your csp. Okay, should we take a look at the csp?

[C]

Sounds good.

[A]

All right, so our goal is to make some changes that are going to allow you to feel more comfortable and to go from a receding bucket to something much more steady. With that lens in mind, what do each of you see on this CSP?

[C]

My substitute teaching. I'm starting out at two days a week at $170 per day. So that's an extra $1,360 a month.

[A]

Extra $1,360 gross.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Okay. You want to just tell me the net amount?

[C]

I don't know what that's going to be yet. I Haven't gotten a paycheck yet.

[A]

Let's just estimate it. If it's $1,360, what do we think? $900,000.

[C]

Just to be on the conservative side. Sure.

[A]

Watch what happens to this number here. Your fixed costs. Ready? What just happened?

[C]

Hey, that's great. It went down several points.

[A]

It dropped from 81 to 73. That's a big drop. Do want to point out your gross income? Look at that number. $180,000. And actually more when you factor in the bonus at the end. That's a lot of money. How do you both feel about that?

[C]

Wonderful. Do you feel better, honey?

[B]

I feel positive about it. And I think it's the fact that, you know, it's not just, you know, raises that are keeping up with inflation. It's like a real difference because it's a different income source coming in.

[A]

We're not done, but it's a good step in the right direction. How about we turn to Chris? What do you notice with the new lenses that we've put on? What do you see in this conscious spending plan?

[B]

And there's not much that can come out besides the daycare. And we kind of weigh that as like a cost now, but benefit long run. And when both kids are in school and we don't have that, it's going to be great. And we've kind of thought about it as get through this part. And when that comes along, it's going to be a huge relief.

[A]

Guys, can I suggest to you that I see a way for you to actually feel great right now without even. Without even Natalie's substitute teaching money. The first thing you have to believe is that it is possible. I'm not trying to be woo woo. I know. I live in LA for part of the year. I don't buy those crystals. I'm not talking about. Okay, wearing a wide brim hat, going around in Venice. It's never going to be me. I'm talking about just simply saying, as a couple making between 160 and $180,000 a year, we are simply never going to feel bad about money again. Did you know that you can do that?

[C]

Sounds great.

[A]

You can, but you have to set the intention. This is my personal rule. I think there's a certain amount of money where when you make it. I actually don't think you should be allowed to complain about the price of anything anymore. I'm not allowed to complain about the price of gummy bears. I'm just not. It is, and I would not because I am very grateful to be able to go and buy the things that I want to buy. And so I simply have made a choice, even a rule. I am never going to complain about the price of something. I. I am too fortunate, and I make too much money to do that. Is there some way you could adapt that intention? It's a very bold, aggressive intention. Like I'm not allowed to complain. That's very bold. Is there a way you could do that? Because you make 160 to $180,000 a year? Maybe you could use some boldness. Go ahead.

[C]

I'm not going to complain about the cost of childcare.

[A]

Thank you.

[C]

That's huge.

[A]

I love that. What a gift to be able to do it. Every dollar I spend on our awesome childcare, we feel so lucky. We drop our kid off with a big smile and we feel grateful. Amazing.

[C]

I look at that from a different perspective because I started postpartum depression therapy after my first child, and I've worked really, really hard to be in a positive mental state for myself and my family in daycare is one of those things that truly helps me as an individual.

[A]

I love that. I love that. Chris, this is what I mean. We are simultaneously working the numbers, but this is such an important lesson, especially for you. Yes, we are working the lessons, the numbers, but also we can get these numbers perfect. I guarantee you, you will still feel scarce around money. It is not purely a math equation here. There's something much deeper and in my opinion, much more meaningful here. Okay, let's. Let's continue on. As it stands, we are 15,000amonth gross, which is 180k, maybe a little extra, but we're not even going to count that. Right now we're at 73% fixed costs. You can't change the daycare. Fine. Keep it as is. 2,000 bucks a month. We're grateful. Probably a couple things. You could cut a bit if you want to. You know, you could probably cut your groceries a bit, whatever, but I'm not the grocery grinch today. It's fine. What else do you notice on this csp?

[B]

Lack of putting money in savings.

[A]

You're right. There is no money going into savings. So what would be a good solution to that?

[B]

If we were in a position where we had the amount that would keep our checking at that, you know, logical 10,000 number, let's say. And beyond that, it gets put into the savings, then if that checking number can stay steady and we can pull from the savings for those larger expenses, that would make me feel A lot better that the fixed costs are going to be covered and we're in good shape.

[A]

I love it. Natalie.

[C]

I'm on board.

[A]

So let me give you some kind of, like, Systems building checking. 10,000 sounds fine. That's your number that's in your checking. Keep it there. So that means right now, in your savings account, you have $23,000, all right? Which is one, two, three months of savings. Okay. Savings should not be getting dipped into regularly. If it's getting dipped into regularly, you have, like, a larger problem. But I'm speaking just in a general average month. You should not be dipping into your savings. You need to actually be putting money one direction in, not pulling out. Okay, where's the money coming from to put into savings? Because right now, three months is not enough.

[C]

Over the past couple of years, the only source for the savings has been my occasional transfer, which was like 100 bucks a quarter. Yeah.

[A]

It's no surprise. It's no surprise that you're in the situation you're in, feeling scarce. There's very, very little money going in and money coming out because of housing and car and this and that. All the clues are here. Can I ask you guys a question?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Why are you investing $1,800 a month?

[C]

Don't ask me.

[A]

Well, hold on. Whoa, wow. Whoa. Who. Who just saw that dynamic happen? Chris, what just happened right there, that's.

[B]

An on me thing.

[A]

It's an on you thing. And actually, the dynamic that you have created, that you have allowed to permeate your family is, is your wife is literally jumping back with her hands up saying, that's not me.

[C]

I wish it were me. I wish I could talk about it.

[A]

But she's saying, that's not me. So we need to fix that because that's a culture problem. But for now, I'm going to come to you. Chris, why are you investing 1800 bucks a month?

[B]

Part of that is the ESOP, right. And that's not something that I can reduce for a current financial benefit. It is. It's just baked in. The other part is that the way my company does the 401k matching now is it used to be straight match up to 3%. Now it's half match up to their contribution or 3%. So feel like I've got to put that 6% in to get the full match or else I'm leaving money on the table, and that doesn't make sense.

[A]

And when do you get that money?

[B]

That would be a long time from now. And if you know the Things work out with the investment account, then, you know, when is that money going to help me more? Now or later?

[A]

Can you answer the question?

[B]

It would be now.

[A]

Yes. You two are in a position you have never realized before because you are operating on the valuable lessons that your parents taught you that happen to not match your current financial reality. Oh. The fact of the matter is you are already on track to have millions and millions of dollars. What is the difference between the two of you having 6.3 or 5.8 or 6.7 or 5.5 makes no difference in the grand scheme of things.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And wouldn't that money, a few hundred dollars extra per month be much more valuable right now, especially for the next three years?

[C]

I think so.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Yeah. Maybe in three years down the line when our daughter is in public school and not daycare, then we can circle back around to that.

[A]

That's exactly right. Now here's my question for you. So Natalie is. Is praising the Lord. Now here's my question.

[C]

Ramit.

[A]

The real question is, why did you not see it? We're all looking at the same numbers, literally the same numbers in front of all of our faces. What do you think stopped you from seeing that you have hundreds and hundreds of dollars per month that you could redirect?

[B]

Chris, for me, it's kind of a silly thing to say given what we've talked about with Leonard and his fees, but like the opportunity cost loss, right, where, you know, if I don't contribute that 3%, then I, or that 6%, then I'm missing out on 3%. And, you know, if I put that in now and it's allowed to grow, then it'll be a whole lot more later down the road. But I'm. I'm just making myself suffer now so that there's a bigger pool and, and a timeline when it's not going to be significant. So I, I never really thought about it that way because it was never an option to leave. Take that money off the table. In my mind, you just nailed it.

[A]

I'm very proud of the way you described. That was picture perfect. You are suffering. And that vision that you have carried for your entire life of I need to save, I need to invest, it's a very valuable lesson. 99.999% of us should follow that advice. We still save and invest, even though we could stop. And also, as you become more advanced, which you both are, you have accumulated, thankfully, because of your grandparents, a considerable amount of money at this young age. We have to adapt and we have to start to ask these questions that. That are almost kind of counterculture to what we were taught. Am I going to leave free money from a 401k? Maybe. Because maybe there's something better than free. And maybe that is connection. That's the two of us actually feeling really good. And yeah, we're actually going to lose out on $180,000 in gains, but we are going to feel so good right now. And that's what's important. What do you think, Natalie?

[C]

That sounds wonderful. I was thinking about your question to both of us, which Chris answered first. Why did you not see it sooner? And I was thinking to myself, why did I not see it when we went through the CSP together? It's because of my ignorance about investments and geez, even like financial nomenclature, you.

[A]

Know, you're exactly right. I appreciate the candor. While Chris has created a culture in the family where, you know, it's him and Leonard and you feel a bit left out, I think that, Natalie, you have allowed yourself to remain on the outside and is really important that you also be allowed in. You need to. And you got to advocate for yourself because you deserve a seat at the table. It is the two of you, you are partners in this. And so you got to be able to talk about it together, understand it, use the same terminology. And if one of you doesn't understand what the other's saying, simplify, simplify, simplify, until you both are on the same page. Here's what I saw the minute we started talking about this. I said, let me get this straight. The two of them are on track to have millions and millions of dollars and actually more when they get rid of this financial advisor charging Aum. So this number is great. And we haven't even talked about Investing, you know, 50% of all the extra money that comes in at the end of the year, bonus, like, whatever. There's so much we can do here. Then why are they investing 900 bucks a month up here and 900 bucks a month down here? Why? That money would be really valuable right now in savings and fill that savings account up. Then once you fill up that emergency fund, get that six months, maybe ideally 12. Then you put together a little house fund, fill that freaking thing up, put that in your fixed cost, keep that money there. Because you know that house is going to break down. It's old. So on average every year it's going to cost you 1% of the purchase price, maybe 2, maybe even 3. Because it's old. Who knows? But you, that Money is flowing, so you are now moving forward, not looking backwards. That's how you do it. Natalie, what surprised you about today's conversation?

[C]

I think Chris and I were both feeling pretty stuck on like, well, I guess Natalie just has to start working more, you know, which is true. But I didn't know that there was another way to affect that, that number, so love it.

[A]

Awesome insight. Chris, what about you? What surprised you in today's conversation?

[B]

I did not expect financial advice to be save less. And in this particular situation, it makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't want that to be the, that's the fix for forever. I'd like to be able to return to that 401k contribution and everything when it's more comfortable and there's not the stress around the money. But it makes a lot of sense. There's no way I would have thought, oh, stop saving.

[A]

It's like someone telling you not to breathe. How can I not breathe? That's who I am. When you become more adept with money, then you start to see it less as a series of black and white rules and more as a fluid, beautiful art form. Yes, there is some science and of course there's some math. It's very simple arithmetic, but there's also an art to it. If I'm you, I'm going, we make $175,000 a year. We cannot be stressed out about money. We just can't. I am not going to allow that to be a part of our household. So if we know that, if we know that we are calm, cool, collected, a team, then what decisions would we make? Well, maybe one of us goes to work, maybe we get a cheaper apartment, or maybe we don't need $7.5 million 35 years from now. And like, we can just take some of that and put it in our savings account. Let's actually do it real quick just to see what the math looks like. Let's just say 700 bucks a month going towards savings. How's that feel?

[B]

That feels a lot better.

[A]

Well, I want to point out that because we dropped your amount, that leaves you both with $1,000 a month in guilt free spending. You probably are going to have to cut a bit on your guilt free spending for a while. The reason is you're, because of your job and your esop. You're like very heavily paper. You're getting paper wealthier. Sure, it's fine, it's great. I mean, you're making a ton of money, but it's just illiquid, right? You have an illiquid house. You have an illiquid esop. You have all this stuff. Fine. So then your goal is just to scrape as much liquidity as possible. And you all know you can do it for three years. Like, it's not hard. You're accumulating a huge amount of money. You're also saving money on investor fees. And then after three years, you're going to. I mean, I'll show you. Look what's going to happen. We just dropped this to zero. Just for simplicity's sake, watch what happens to the fixed cost number from 73 to 53%. It's massive. How do you feel seeing that?

[B]

We. We know it's coming. It's just. I like the idea of being able to reduce the stress about money in the short term with a creative fix like the 401k, because we know that that big change is coming, and that's gonna just. It'll be huge. I feel positive and hopeful.

[A]

Cool. Natalie.

[C]

I feel motivated.

[A]

I love hearing both of those. I love that. I suspect the two of you have a few hundred bucks a month. Easily that can be found, that can be optimized. Whatever savings you institute, like, just make sure that you set up the automatic transfer into savings. What you're going to see is after a month, especially after three months, that savings account is going to be growing and growing in a way that it has not grown in years. And you're going to see it. You're going to go, oh, my God. Like, we didn't do it. We just set it up once and it's just automatically rolling. And that is very motivating. And you can start to see, oh, my God, we're going to have this much after six months and on, and you're both going to feel unified. That's a beautiful thing. I'm really glad Chris is seeing a therapist, because so much of our relationship with money is mediated by our mental health. It's why I talk to so many people who have tons of money who still feel scarce about their finances. Natalie and Chris are looking at the same exact spreadsheet, and they are seeing two completely different things, which actually reminded me of one of my favorite examples from psychology. This famous study where Harvard and Yale students watched footage of a football game between their schools. Both sides saw the exact same plays, but each side insisted the other team was playing dirty. Same footage, completely different interpretations. Why? Because we don't see facts. We don't see an objective reality. What we see is mediated by our experience, by our Psychology by so many things from our history. It's almost like we're wearing a set of lenses and we are seeing the world like this and your lenses are different. So when people ask, what's the fix? Well, it's not just therapy. It's not just one book or podcast. Real change is actually messy, takes multiple attempts. You're not just going to go linearly up and to the right. You're going to do all kinds of things, go backwards. You're going to try multiple approaches. You're going to have to get a little bit lucky. But when it clicks, when people finally see each other and realize I have control over my money, it is beautiful. I also want to say something personal here. It means a lot to me when professionals like therapists, doctors, professors recommend this show personally. In my culture, we are raised to raise, revere teachers. In my culture, you never touch a book with your feet because it has knowledge. Teachers are almost treated like gods. So when a therapist says, you should talk to Ramit, it is actually especially meaningful to me and I take it very seriously. I know my area of competence and when things stray outside, I always recommend people go and speak to a specialist. In fact, you don't know this, but I've ended calls which you never heard when there were serious mental health issues at play. And I told them, I'm not equipped to help you. And I try to learn from them as well. Sometimes I ask therapists on social media, what do you think of the show? What would you do differently? And their feedback is incredibly helpful. I want to remind you when it comes to these professionals, you should know that they do a lot of the quiet work behind the scenes. I speak to couples once. Therapists speak to them for months, even years. They are doing the hard work. So are the people who show up and seek out help. That's quiet work that's often unacknowledged. But I see it here and I want to recognize everybody who takes part in that. Natalie and Chris, they have a long road ahead, but I think they have the love and the financial resources and the willingness to change. So let's see what's happened in their follow ups.

[B]

Hey, remeatin team. This is Chris. Biggest surprise for me was that I don't always have to be saving everything all the time. And given our financial situation, it's okay to not be putting money into an IRA as long as that's meeting our long term goals because it's helping us so much in the short term. I never would have come to that conclusion on my own. So thank you and really appreciate it. Biggest takeaway is that we're really doing a whole lot financially better than I had thought, thinking about the investments and that yes, we don't have a whole lot of cash on hand, but that we can pull some away from stashing away into investments to help out with that situation of not having quite enough cash on hand because there was already enough in the investments that that really kind of opened my mind up to thinking about money a little bit differently. And so I've made the reduction to my IRA contribution. I was actually at 7%, not just 6%. So that's like $900 plus a month. That's huge. And, and we're also making the switch from Edward Jones and I am committed to making sure that gets done by the end of the year. So thank you again, really appreciate it.

[C]

Hey guys. Natalie here, checking in with my post interview homework. The biggest surprise that I got out of our conversation with Ramit was definitely how much money our investments will accrue to by the age that we retire. I think when Ramit asked me, what would you guys do with $6 million? I can't even fathom that much money. So I didn't really have a response. But because of that information, Chris is incredibly motivated to not invest as much at the moment. And he has already cut his 401k investment from his paycheck from 6% to zero, actually, which is even better than 3%. We've calculated how much money we can auto deposit into a savings account each month to hopefully purchase the vehicle that we want to purchase in June. We had our bi weekly meeting with our therapist yesterday and she commented on how much lighter we seem, how much more easygoing we seem. I even spoke about letting my in laws babysit because it doesn't cost any money, which is huge for me. So I guess that says something. I wanted to thank you guys again so much for your help. I've never seen Chris this optimistic about finances and the fact that he's at ease now has just made a night and day difference in our relationship, so it works. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Talk to you soon.

[A]

If you want to stop feeling like money is this thing that you don't have control over and you want to get control, get it fast and then start using your money to live your rich life together. Don't miss the next episode of Money for Couples. Real conversations, real numbers and what it actually takes to get on the same page.