245. "We make 6 figures. Why am I hiding fast food purchases?"

Summary

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Money for Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 245: “We make 6 figures. Why am I hiding fast food purchases?”
Air date: January 27, 2026

Episode Overview

In this emotionally rich episode, Ramit Sethi sits down with Grace and James, a couple in Ireland with two young children, who have weathered cancer, career upheaval, and new parenthood—all while managing six-figure household earnings and significant financial anxiety. The conversation deconstructs the couple’s money psychology: from guilt-driven spending and hiding purchases to the emotional roots of hoarding, control, and fear. Ramit gently guides them through unpacking their earliest money memories, family stories, and their relationship dynamics in times of crisis. The episode is an unfiltered look at how even high-performing, organized couples can get trapped in cycles of anxiety, guilt, and secrecy, and how they can move toward a shared, resilient, and joyful vision of their "Rich Life" together.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pressure Cooker: Living Through Crisis

• Situation: Grace and James, both in their late 30s, live in Ireland with a toddler and an infant. James is recovering from cancer; Grace is on maternity leave. Household income fell, savings became a lifeline, stress and guilt built up.
• Emotional Impact: Grace feels guilty about “forcing” James to keep working during cancer treatment, fearing for their financial stability:
  • “I felt like the worst wife in the world… I was just feeling incredibly guilty.” – Grace (05:13)
• James shares his health journey and how continuing to work was both a distraction and a burden:
  • “Looking back, I don't recognize who I was...I was a zombie. I was a tired husk.” – James (08:16)

2. Money Habits: Saving Versus Splurging in Secret

• Contradictions: Despite robust financial systems (sinking funds, a year’s bills saved), Grace admits to emotional, mindless spending—particularly late-night online shopping and eating out secretly:
  • “I hide how much food I eat out...I'll drive into a drive thru, buy a huge meal and eat it all...I don't know, I think I got a bit of a weird thrill out of it.” – Grace (31:22)
• Control Mechanisms: Both partners use systems to manage anxiety—Grace through over-saving and meticulous budgeting, James through detachment:
  • “I think I was just trying to do something to control the situation…The future was so uncertain that I just...needed to at least feed my family.” – Grace (21:23)

3. Communication & Teamwork: Shifting Responsibilities

• During Illness:
  • Weekly budgeting meetings stopped when James became too exhausted; Grace took on all money management.
  • Ramit commends their prior teamwork:
    • “That seems very reasonable, by the way—much more advanced than most to sit down and talk about money every week.” – Ramit (14:44)
• Feelings of Isolation: Grace likens herself to a “pressure cooker,” feeling alone with the responsibility.
  • James notes the “microaggressions” and tension during peak stress.
  • Both express shame and pride over their crisis response—hoarding food, pausing investments, tracking every expense.

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4. Money Psychology: Origins of Fear & Guilt

• Family Messages:

  • James was raised to “never grumble,” with enough but never excess, and a suspicion of debt.
  • Grace came from an upper-middle-class Irish family where money was a secret, not to be flaunted or openly discussed:
    • “Don’t tell anyone we've got automatic gates, because they think we're rich and we're not.” – Grace recounting her mother’s lesson (68:51)

• Patterns in Adulthood:

  • James fears that “if I let myself uncaged, feel good about money, I would just spend it all.” (63:24)
  • Grace chases control, process, and constant vigilance; struggles to let go.

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5. Numbers in the Open: The Conscious Spending Plan (CSP)

• Snapshot:

  • Assets: €328,000
  • Investments: €79,000
  • Savings: €42,000
  • Debt: €230,000
  • Net Worth: €219,000
  • Combined Monthly Income: ~€9,000 (plus overtime)
  • Fixed costs: 48-58% (depending on temporarily reduced income)
  • 49% savings (pre-adjustment), guilt-free spending negative (i.e., over-budget)

• Key Revelations:

  • Both were surprised by how much they actually have—James didn’t realize they earned or saved as much.
    • “I thought we were making a lot less than we were... And I didn't realize we had so much...” – James (34:24)
  • They discovered they could afford more guilt-free spending and weren’t allowing themselves enough joy.

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6. Freedom and the Meaning of Money

• What Money Enables:

  • Filling up a car without checking gas prices = freedom.
  • Money should grant choice, reduce anxiety, fund joy and security:
    • “Freedom is in the simplest of things... being able to go to the restaurant and get a lemonade because your kid asks you for one." – Ramit (53:02)

• Vision for the ‘Rich Life’:

  • Early retirement in their 50s
  • Three family vacations per year (including with extended family)
  • Funding children’s education
  • House renovation, craft room, flexible work schedules
  • Above all: Enjoyment and thriving, not just survival

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7. Transformation: From Survival to Thriving

• Barriers to Change:

  • Grace tracks expenses obsessively, trying to control chaos, but realizes it’s a distraction from true change and enjoyment.
    • “I think it's the same thing that I was doing with the tomatoes... It's the control. If I can just get it down on paper, then I can make sense of it. But actually I know what's wrong.” – Grace (104:21)
  • Both are challenged to “zoom out,” trust the system, and shift focus to living, not just saving.

• Practical Steps:

  • Decided together to target 13-18 months of emergency savings, then allow more for enjoyment.
  • Plan revived weekly money meetings for transparency and support.
  • Grace physically removed credit cards from her phone and disabled Apple Pay to slow impulsive nighttime purchases (115:01).
  • Both now track guilt-free spending as a positive thing, not a shameful failing.

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8. Key Quotes and Memorable Moments

(Timestamps approximate; use MM:SS as guidance)

• Guilt and Fear:
  • “I feel like I'm asking too much…I feel like I asked too much of him and it probably did cause him harm.” – Grace (10:44)
• Teamwork Under Strain:
  • “Every now and then, she would explode like that, and she'd come out in a minute. But then, you know... lots of little microaggressions…Gracie is very practical in every sense.” – James (19:44)
• Unpacking Generational Stories:
  • “Don’t tell anyone we've got automatic gates, because they think we're rich and we're not.” – Grace (68:51)
• The Power of Freedom:
  • “I filled the car up without paying attention. I just paid it…That’s, you know, you don’t…I didn’t look at how much that diesel was…just filled up till it stopped and I paid it and I drove off.” – James (52:19)
  • “Freedom.” – James (53:01)
• Shared Vision and Realization:
  • “You have all the ingredients for a true rich life…what a shame to live that way when you actually have all the ingredients for a true rich life.” – Ramit (85:01)
  • “Enjoyment.” – James on the next chapter (112:19)
  • “I’d love to thrive.” – Grace (112:24)
• Letting Go of Guilt:
  • “If you come home and there’s a McDonald’s cup in the thing…Fine.” – James (117:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | |--------------|---------| | 00:47 | Grace admits to hiding fast-food, feeling guilt | | 01:39 | Financial crisis scenario & intro to couple’s story | | 03:53 | Grace and James’ goals for the conversation | | 06:32 | James’ cancer story & resilience | | 13:18 | Grace describes emotional spending triggers | | 15:06 | Their budgeting system—pre-illness teamwork | | 18:07 | Grace as “pressure cooker,” struggle for control | | 21:20 | Jam-making, meal-prep as anxiety management | | 30:07 | Money differences: tiny purchases vs. big spends | | 31:22 | Grace admits to hiding meals out, thrill of secrecy | | 34:14 | Reviewing actual savings and income—James surprised | | 38:53 | Pausing investments during crisis; trade-offs | | 52:19 | James on feeling “freedom” at the gas pump | | 68:51 | Grace’s family secrecy about wealth | | 77:35 | Money messages from childhood applied to marriage | | 84:45 | What happens if problems keep recurring? | | 86:52 | Their shared “Rich Life” vision | | 95:02 | Discussion on appropriateness of high savings rate | | 99:14 | Reviewing real spending—humor and honesty | | 104:21 | Grace on budgeting as control mechanism | | 112:19 | Turning point: naming the next phase (Enjoyment/Thrive) | | 114:08 | Follow-up updates from Grace & James |

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Follow-Up: Progress in Real Life

Grace (2-3 weeks later):

• Shared guilt-free spending budget for vacation, “went wild” on the last day without shame.
• James took the lead on money meetings, freeing up mental space for Grace.
• “I can’t tell you how much better I’m feeling.”

James:

• Feels “positive,” less anxiety.
• Weekly check-ins renewed involvement, more transparency and honesty about money and spending.
• Focusing on memories as a family, not just on things.

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Tone and Language

Throughout the episode, Ramit infuses humor, empathy, and directness. Grace and James are candid, vulnerable, and willing to laugh at themselves even as they share shame and struggle. The conversation is peppered with dry wit and affection, making even the most serious topics approachable.

Memorable moment: a running joke about the “missing zero” on Irish childcare and phone bills vs. U.S. equivalents, and mock arguments over McDonald's bags.

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Summary Takeaways

• Even organized, disciplined couples can feel financial anxiety, secrecy, and guilt, especially under crisis.
• Money systems (budgets, saved year’s expenses) can provide security, but healthy communication and freedom to enjoy the wealth matter just as much.
• Teamwork means shifting responsibilities through illness and life upheaval—no one “fails” for needing help.
• Family messages about money profoundly shape adult behavior and need to be seen, not just obeyed or rejected.
• Planning for the worst in good times enables true freedom and joy when life throws curveballs.
• Guilt-free spending must be built into the plan; enjoyment and thriving are as worthy as saving.
• True financial health is about both numbers and emotional connection: resilience, gratitude, and a shared vision.

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To learn more about Ramit’s coaching or Conscious Spending Plans, visit iwt.com.

Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

If you are in a relationship where you or your partner cover up spending to avoid big fights or you get stressed out spending $150 on dinner even though you can easily afford it if you lay awake at night anxious about money, I want to talk to you. I'm currently casting couples for the next season of the Money for Couples podcast. We only do this a few times a year and I want to hear from you. You can apply today at iwt.com/apply. Being on the podcast is basically a three or four hour coaching session with me. Tons of past couples who have appeared on the podcast have said it is a pivotal moment for them to get on the same page. So if you want my take on your unique financial situation, this is your chance. Apply right [e-mail] apply.

[Grace]

I hide how much food I eat out. I will drive into a drive thru, buy a huge meal and eat it all. His therapist said she's shocked that he's still working with young children and cancer treatment. I was just feeling incredibly guilty.

[Ramit Sethi]

You wrote in your application that you feel like a pressure cooker about to explode.

[James]

What if I get sick again? They said it was going to be gone the first time and it came back. What if I can't work for another year this time? Work won't pay for it.

[Grace]

I actually find it so hard to stick to the budget. I spent €200 on Temu.

[Ramit Sethi]

On what?

[Grace]

Oh, Remy. I'd love to have a plan to not feel so terrified if the two.

[Ramit Sethi]

Of you continue on the way that you have with your money. When something comes up in life, what do you think happens the next time? And the time after that and the time after that?

[Grace]

Oh, I will just collapse.

[Ramit Sethi]

Here's the scenario. Your partner is suddenly diagnosed with cancer. They have to step back from work, and your household income predictably drops. On top of the fear and grief that you are both experiencing. Would you know what to do financially? This is what Grace and James have been navigating. They're 38 and 37 years old. They live in Ireland with their two children, a toddler and an infant. James has been going through cancer treatment while Grace is on maternity leave. Their income has taken a hit and like a lot of couples, they're trying to figure out how to make it all work. Now, I know that a lot of people would avoid talking about money until they are forced to, but Grace and James are doing it and they've let us look inside their real numbers. I'm opening up their conscious spending plan or their CSP it breaks down their income, expenses, savings and exactly where their money is going. If you want my help with your own conscious spending plan, join my money coaching [e-mail] moneycoaching here's what I'm seeing in their numbers. Assets 328,000 Investments 79,000 Savings 42,000 Debt 230,000 Net worth 219,000 Fixed costs are at 48% Investments 6% Savings at 40%. That's quite aggressive. That 40% Savings Rate 10 tells me something is going on. Maybe they are in a rebuilding phase. Maybe they are trying to get ahead of what might be coming. It's not surprising to see a higher savings rate given that they've been going through cancer, reduced income and having a newborn. Now I want to hear from you. Have you ever been through a situation where your income dropped overnight? Maybe it was a health crisis, maybe it was a job loss. I want to hear from you in the comments. I want to know, what did you cut back on? And looking back, what do you wish you hadn't cut back on? I'll check out the comments later today. For now, let's get into it. Here is my conversation with Grace and James. If we just have an amazing 10 out of 10 conversation, what would you walk out of here with? Why don't we start with you, Grace?

[Grace]

I think I really want a game plan for how to build back up what we're currently ratcheting down on. I feel like we've had a huge. So many bumps in the road and we've done what we can, but I'd love to like get that skyrocketing sort of like, okay, kind of a big release. I'd love to have a plan to look towards the future and not feel so terrified. And I would love to kind of understand how I feel maybe a little bit more and why I feel like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. James, how about you?

[James]

Very similar with the. Especially with the building backup with me personally to kind of really get my head and my, my heart back into finances. You know, it's been very much on Grace's shoulder for the past while and I want to be able to kind of help take some of that burden away and get myself more financially literate again.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. All right, well, I'm looking forward to this. I have a lot of questions. Grace, you wrote, my husband has cancer and I'm on maternity leave with a four month old. I feel like I'm forcing him to keep working because of our money situation. Can you tell me what you were feeling when you wrote that.

[Grace]

Oh, just the horrible guilt for me. So in Ireland, we get. I'm going off the concise now, but in Ireland, we get six months paid maternity, and then we get three months unpaid, and then I get an extra three months. So in all. In all, it turns out to be a year. But I have been off sick and I have been on reduced hours because I just had a really rough pregnancy. So we had saved money, but not as much as I wanted. And I really felt a lot of pressure to, like, encourage James to keep working through his treatment. His therapist basically said she's shocked that he's still working with the child, young children and cancer treatment. And when he told me this, ah, oh, my God, I felt like the worst wife in the world. Like, I wasn't supporting him through his treatment. I'm constantly looking at the numbers and I'm constantly like, okay, if you can keep working for another month or two, then we can put another 2,000 in savings and then that will keep us going until January and then, I don't know. I. So, yeah, I was just feeling incredibly guilty.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you still feel that way?

[Grace]

Yeah, I do. Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

James, if you're comfortable, would you mind sharing what you're dealing with from a health perspective?

[James]

I got cancer first, three years ago. It was just a very simple a mole that went funny, melanoma. They thought they got it all, and then I found a lump in my arm, of all places, and it turns out it metastasized and they hadn't caught it. So thankfully they caught it early again. And surgery to remove the second site and then immunotherapy for over a year. And prognosis is looking good, though, which is fantastic. I actually finished my last treatment cycle two weeks ago.

[Ramit Sethi]

Really?

[James]

So, yeah.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Congratulations.

[James]

Thank you very much.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, that's awesome. How long have you been going through treatment?

[James]

A year.

[Grace]

Wow.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. And how do you feel right now? Physically tired.

[James]

It's going to take at least three months, they said, for it to kind of fully leave my system. And then there's a lot of side effects and everything that crop up and various stuff. So I'm still a bit to go, but I think the big. The big kind of mental hurdle is out of the way, you know, so we are in a much better place than we were when we. When we submitted to come on the show. I'm. I'm doing great. I. Can't you count my blessings? I'm doing really well.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm very happy to hear that. Very happy. How about Mentally, how do you feel?

[James]

I'm mentally much better. I've been had a lot more mental space to kind of get my head around it and concentrate on getting better. I've been off work now for two, two months. My work worker giv me till the new year, then we'll reassess. And that has helped a lot.

[Ramit Sethi]

And.

[James]

It'S given me a lot of mental space to kind of heal. And it's also given my love mental space for other things to prop up finances, for one.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that what led to the decision for you to stop working?

[James]

Looking back, I don't recognize who I was. I was. I wasn't. I was a zombie. I was a tired husk. I was gray. Everyone used to talk about how gray I was. I wasn't really working. That's the thing. Like there's so many people covering for me doing various aspects. I was doing the bare minimum. But, you know, work gave me the option to keep working.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why?

[James]

Just because I thought I'd be bored.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait a minute. Hold on. Where's your accent from? Are you Irish? I might have waded into it. Where is the accent from?

[James]

The England.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay. All right. Am I in big trouble right now? I noticed.

[Grace]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, God. No, no, no. Sorry, everybody. Sorry. Okay, listen, the reason I'm asking is I would understand if some American, you know, born and raised in the US all they know is work. That's our entire life. We go, what else am I going to do? Of course I'm going to work. But the UK excels at leisure. What's this?

[James]

It was money. If I take the year off, it would have to be unpaid and we couldn't afford it. We were always planning on having a second child, but our timeline massively accelerated when the cancer came back. It was bluntly, grace was I might lose you. I want one more of you before you go.

[Grace]

I want just a little bit more of him. I want a little bit just in case that he vanished from my life. So that was the first thought that popped into my head. If this has come back, I don't have enough of him. I don't know if that makes any sense, but I also. We knew that he would have to have treatment and we don't know about the fertility long term effects either. It was basically, we try now and be pregnant and have a baby while you're undergoing treatment, or we only have one child and that's it. It was really hard. But we got our beautiful second baby out of it. So she's just perfect.

[Ramit Sethi]

Congratulations. It's beautiful.

[Grace]

Thank you.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's beautiful. And the treatment now concluding, hopefully future health. It's a beautiful end to that chapter of your life. Beautiful. Grace, you mentioned that you still feel guilty about asking James to work. Tell me more about that.

[Grace]

Yeah, I feel like it made his treatment journey so much harder than it needed to be. He ended up having to go on to steroids for low cortisol and I ended up having to call the ambulance for him and he ended up having to go into hospital a few times, probably because he was under so much pressure and he wasn't getting time to relax and. And I think I was just expecting a lot of him. But I was also caring for a newborn and, you know, when the newborn came along, I just feel like I asked a lot of him and I asked too much of him and it probably did cause him harm.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you talk about this?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, what's the conversation like? I'm going to imagine? Grace says, I feel like I'm asking too much.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what's your response, James?

[James]

You know, I've never felt that. And I always tell her that she's never felt that. Like, you know, a lot of decisions I made around work and everything was based around my recovery. Like, I wanted to keep working because it was a distraction and I thought I'd be bored and, you know, it wasn't until I got to the very point where I couldn't. I wasn't. I was. I was probably causing work more harm than good that I kind of said, look, and they were, their credit, they were great. And actually, turns out they can. They can't give me my full salary, but they are giving me three thirds of my salary while I'm off.

[Grace]

Two thirds.

[James]

Two thirds, Sorry. Wow. Yeah. Which they didn't have to do. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's very generous of them.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Big shout out to all the companies out there. You know, we usually hear only bad things about companies, but it's quite amazing what great companies can do in tough times. Yeah, it's awesome. Grace, you wrote in your application, quote, I'm constantly saving, but then I'll blow money on silly things in a it life is hard moment. So, yes, what I want to know is what kind of things are you spending on in those moments?

[Grace]

Oh, Remy, Absolute. This morning I spent €200 on Timu.

[Ramit Sethi]

On what?

[Grace]

Just, like, little things. It's all just small things. It's two o' clock in the morning. I'm feeding the child, the child's gone back to bed. I'm trying to go back to sleep. I'm on my phone and then an Instagram ad comes up and I buy skincare things for €60, which doesn't even work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, what's going through your head? In those moments where you see these ads, you go on Temu and you buy what's going through your head.

[Grace]

They've got me here. I do look like crap. I am exhausted. I don't take care of myself. This is one thing I can do to take care of myself. Myself. Look at me. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, self care, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. €60. Here's the. Oh, I can just double click. Oh, it's done. Now what?

[Ramit Sethi]

It's interesting, the way you describe it. Like, you're dismissive of it. Like, you. The way you describe it is it's a con, but yet you do it over and over. Why do you think?

[Grace]

I think I get a sick joy out of falling for it sometimes. The stuff is lovely. So I'm like, maybe this time it'll be really nice, the same as the other times. But other times it is a total scam. And when I look it up afterwards, I'm like, oh, why didn't I research into this more and find out that? And, like, just read the comments and read the reviews and look it up on trustpilot.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you make these sort of, as you put it, mindless purchases before you had kids?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You did?

[Grace]

Yeah. It really needs to stop.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do money decisions get made in your relationship?

[Grace]

I probably make most of them.

[Ramit Sethi]

You take the lead.

[James]

Definitely now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And before. Before James got sick, like, we would.

[James]

Do weekly budgeting and stuff, like where every Sunday we would sit down together when the kids were asleep and we would kind of look over. We'd have kind of a set budget of what we'd normally spend and we go through the calendar. But then mentally, I could just. Just couldn't take it. And Grace kind of took it. Took it all. And she still does now.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's all. That seems very reasonable, by the way. Much more advanced than most to sit down and talk about money every week. So that's great. The fact that as you got sick, James, you had to give up on participating. That also seems totally normal. And the fact, Grace, that you took the load on yourself seems like great partnership.

[Grace]

Yeah. I think we had a good system going into it because I had been doing a lot of the envelope system, and I just really liked watching the videos. And I was like, ooh, I could do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. What? What Videos did you like watching? Who watches envelope videos? What?

[Grace]

Stop. It's addictive.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are these videos? That's what I want to know. What are they?

[Grace]

It's people being like, I'm going through my budget for the week. And it's like, I just love watching other people's money. Like, I love your show.

[Ramit Sethi]

I know why you love my show. I get that. Good.

[Grace]

But it did help because I set up a whole sinking fund system so I have automatic money going to. So we have basically a year's worth of the big bills always pretty much saved, and that's automatic. So we had a good system going into it. So it wasn't like too much of a big deal to take it on. James, don't. Don't be worrying about that.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm impressed with Grace's knowledge about money. She's obviously taken the time to be curious about personal finance, and it shows when she talks about having an emergency fund, or, as she puts it, a year's worth of big bills saved up. But I'm struck by the way she describes her feelings around their financial situation. Remember, Grace said she feels guilty for, quote, for forcing James to keep working because she was nervous about their financial situation. James isn't working anymore, but she still feels guilty. And now, even though she's worried about money, she'll go and mindlessly spend $200 on Temu at 2am it's all a bit contradictory. Those mixed signals tell me there's something going on here, something deeper she has not worked through yet. And you can hear it in this one moment. She said, I might lose you. I want one more of you before you go. Can you imagine your partner saying that? Can you imagine feeling that way? There are a lot of layers to unpack here. We're not just talking about a savings rate. We're talking about mortality and love. And we don't even know what's going to eventually happen. So listen, as I gently probe Grace about this explosive line from her application. Grace, you wrote in your application that you feel like, quote, a pressure cooker about to explode. What do you mean by that?

[Grace]

Having the sole responsibility of organizing the money and, you know, putting it where it needs to be. It feels just a huge amount of pressure. And then just the thought of not having any money coming in with the. With the maternity leave and then things are just a little bit complicated and, you know, I'm looking at all the small fine points and, like, hoping they all slot together. And if they don't, then, oh, I don't Know, I might explode, and I tend to get quite cross. And I think that's why I was putting a lot of pressure on James as well, to kind of keep working as well, because my systems don't work if the money's not there. You know, if it's. Money's not coming in, everything could fall apart.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you would put the pressure on him, as you put it, how would you do that?

[Grace]

I think I would gently prompt. You were having surgery in September and you took the month leading up to it off. Oh, yeah, that really, really stressed me out because I was like, you are going to need a lot more time off than this. We can't have this because, yes, we get sick leave here in Ireland. You know, we get sick pay, but we only get a certain amount of it, and you're going to need a lot of it, and then we're not going to have the money. So I remember having this discussion with you about that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you let James know? Yeah, you tell him we can't do this. What about that?

[Grace]

I. I try. Yeah. So I try and, like, lay it out and say, oh, well, I'm worried about this. And then James was like, well, I need to take it off. So he took it off, and I was like, okay. But then I would, like, hold onto it, hold onto it. And then, like, it would burst out of me again a week later being like, are you sure you can't go back to work right now and work for another week?

[Ramit Sethi]

And what did that dynamic feel like when the two of you were having this in the thick of cancer treatment?

[Grace]

I was feeling so stressed. I was feeling like there was a baby on the way. I was. I knew I was going to start feeling sick really, really soon. So I was trying to do all of my overtime really early on so I could, like, do nights and do this before my sickness started and I had to stop working. So there was such a time limit, and I just felt like, you know, he just needed to push through. Like, I was pushing through and he. He wasn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

And James, how do you feel when Grace would share this with you and feel anxious and stressed out?

[James]

Maybe like, you know, it was. I felt selfish because, remember, at this time, he was a toddler as well. You know, she was. Yeah, she was 2. And so we weren't sleeping. You know, we were trying to, you know, raise her at the same time. And it's just so much. So much pressure. Yeah, she would. Every now and then, she would explode like that, and she'd come out in a Minute. But then, you know, between those, it was lots of little microaggressions, I guess you could call them that, you know. But for her, it was very. Gracie is very practical in every sense. Like, you should see our cupboards are full of jam and pickles and hand tomatoes and stuff that she would. She would find farmers. You know, she'd go to the market, the veg market at the end of the day, wait until the very last, where the farmer had whatever X amount left haggling down, buy it all, spend a whole day chopping, and then we'd have just loads of cat stuff. So the idea was that if everyone tits up, we'd have, you know, food. And then that was so stressful for me because I would, you know, I'd come back from treatment or I would be have a bad week or something, and I would have to take full responsibility with parenting and work and everything because Grace was in this manic mode of we have to have, you know, 17, 000 tins of tomato just in case.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is a very good example. What do you make of this example now that you are looking back?

[Grace]

I'm really ashamed, actually.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Why?

[Grace]

I think I was just trying to do something to control the situation and like, try and preserve, you know, something for the future. The future was so uncertain that I just. I felt like I needed to at least feed my family.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yes.

[Grace]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Layers of perception in your answer just now. I feel ashamed. I love the acknowledgment of how you feel. That's powerful, the need for control. I totally agree. Because if you look like going and waiting and haggling with the farmers and. And then finally this idea of at least I'm feeding my family. I can't fix what's going on with my husband's health. Work is work. I'm trying to get as many hours as I can in before I get sick. I'm pregnant. I got a little one, but what can I do? Feed my family.

[Grace]

Yeah. And I would spend hours and hours and hours meal prepping and having food there, and I don't know if it actually made any difference.

[James]

It really did. It still does. We still got loads left. Yeah. When she was towards the end of pregnancy and it was starting to get bad for her and I was kind of having to. Irregardless of how I felt or how I was feeling, I had to look after the toddler, I had to feed Grace and. And it just made life so much easier that I could just, you know, take a kind of a pre Made glass jar of peppers and tomato and stuff and throw it in with some rice and a bit of chicken or something, you know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait, was it good a decision or not? I'm trying to figure it out now.

[Grace]

I don't know. I think that we also could have just bought. Bought it.

[James]

It could have saved ourselves so much stress.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let me say this. First of all, do you know how much you have been through as a family? It's a lot. Have you grappled with that? Have you talked about that?

[Grace]

People say it to me all the time, and I'm like, oh, yeah. But, like, you just have to do it. There's no other option. You just have to keep going.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's exactly what my mom said. I asked her, how did you stay married for so long and how did you raise all these kids? And her answer was, there's no other choice. You just do it. And I love that answer. I respect that answer. And I think that maybe when we have that approach, we also don't take time to pause and grapple with the enormity of what we have done, what we have accomplished, what we've gone through. Exactly. Grace, as I just saw you take a deep breath. I think that many of us are raised to, like, what do they call it? Stiff upper lip, look forward, check the box. And I agree there's power in that, but there's also power in the softer side of saying, like, hey, have we actually talked about what we went through? What did it mean to us as a family? Because trust me, two powerful things are going to come out of that one. You're going to gain a deeper appreciation for each other. This tomato example is actually much deeper than either of you are letting on. There's something really beautiful and something really haunting about this example. To me, the idea that, Grace, you just want to feed your family.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let them know you're going to be there. And it doesn't matter that it took hours. It was irrational to spend that many hours, but you still did it. And. And yet there is something that perhaps is not that adaptive to your situation. The idea that you were a very, very busy pregnant mom and you were spending hours. Why, if you look at it that way, it doesn't make mathematical sense. So there's something beautiful. That's the first thing you're going to get out of, is an understanding of what actually happened. Most of us never pause and look back, so we just keep marching forward. The second thing it's going to do is the two of you talking about it is going to allow you to create stories for your family. Your kids need to know this story. They need to know it. Just the same way your parents pass down their stories, your kids need to know what the two of you did and how can they learn if the two of you have not decided what happened? You know, you have to feel for Grace and James. They have had a really tough few years and my heart goes out to them. One thing that makes it all a little bit more bearable is where they live in Ireland, there are systems in place that help people when things go wrong, especially when somebody gets sick. Of course it's not perfect, but it is a safety net that works. Like when James got cancer, they didn't have to worry about going bankrupt on top of everything else they were experiencing. Now compare that to what we deal with here in the U.S. in 2024, 31 million adults incurred medical debt totaling $74 billion. And the American Journal of Public Health found that roughly 2/3 of people that filed bankruptcy say that medical bill illness related income loss contributed to their bankruptcy. This is why I always shake my head when people tell me in my comments, stick to personal finance. Don't bring politics into it. That's like me telling you, keep ingredients out of cooking. You cannot separate the two things, just as you cannot separate money from politics. Politics is why your health care is so expensive. It's why millions of Americans couldn't even get health insurance before the aca, also known as Obamacare. And it explains a lot of why people declare bankruptcy rather than the common belief that people bought too many luxury cars they couldn't afford. I want you to be able to know that if something horrific happens like a car accident or a cancer diagnosis, that you will be taken care of and you won't lose your house. That is where I stand politically and that is what I stand for. After this break, we're going to learn more about their individual relationships with with money. I absolutely love this story. One of my students, when they got married, they did something very special to keep track of all the invitation RSVPs that were coming in. They had their wedding guest list organized and automated in Notion. Anytime they got a response, Notion automatically inputted that information into a chart. Things like attendance, food allergies, song requests, everything. Systems like this. To me, some of the most beautiful examples of art in the modern world. Such a beautiful way to use the power of notion to make your life easier. Notion brings all of your notes, documents and projects into one connected space that just works. It's seamless. It's flexible, powerful, and actually fun to use. With AI built right in, you spend less time switching between tools and more time creating great work. And now with Notion Agent, your AI doesn't just help with work, it finishes it with a single prompt. Notion Agents forms a plan, executes it, and will reassess for any snags. You assign the task, your agent does the work. It is that simple. And there's a reason that over 50% of Fortune 500 companies use Notion. Try Notion now with notion [e-mail] ramit that's all lowercase letters. Notion.com ramit to try your new AI teammate notion agent today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show notion.com ramit who else has had the experience where you put off something for a week, a month, three months? It's like a pile of papers you need to organize on your desk. You finally get to it and it takes like 10 minutes. Why didn't we just get it done anyway? I find the same thing is true of water. Like a lot of us do all these crazy things to drink more water. We know we should drink more water. We buy this jumbo water ball that says, keep going, drink more. You can do it. It's like maybe we just want a little bit of flavor in our water. If that's you and you want to drink more water this year, try using Element to replace essential electrolytes and make your water taste even better. Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water made with no food dyes, no fillers, and no bs. When you're sweating at the gym, on a hike, or just in the heat, you're losing more than water. Element helps replace essential electrolytes so you stay sharp, avoid cramps, and feel better. It's formulated based on real science and it's used by Navy Seals, Olympic athletes and pro sports teams. Get a free 8 count sample pack of elements Most popular drink Mix flavors with any [e-mail] Ramit that's drinklmnt.com Ramit find your favorite element flavor or share it with a friend. Try it totally risk free because if you don't like it, they'll give you your money back, no questions asked. Now, are the two of you similar in the way you think about money or do you think about it differently?

[Grace]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I already know the answer based on James's smile. James, go ahead.

[James]

In some senses, I think we are quite, I think kind of big picture stuff. I think we're Quite very similar.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just tell me the differences because neither of you believe you're similar. I can tell by your faces.

[James]

Tell me, James, if she has fun, money, whatever she'll spend on little things I'm more of. If I buy something, I'll probably buy something big maybe once a year.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's an example of a big thing once per year?

[James]

My watch broke a year and a half ago and I finally replaced it.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much did it cost?

[James]

400 per euro. Okay. All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

And Grace, how would you describe your relationship with money?

[Grace]

So I save first. I always put as Mac the max amount that I can think to save. I earn a little bit more than James, so I always have a little bit extra. So I think, oh well, I can spend the rest of it now.

[Ramit Sethi]

And when the stress goes up, whether through James's illness or having kids, does anything change in your relationship with money.

[Grace]

I think I spend more. And I wouldn't really tell James too much about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you mean?

[Grace]

I suppose I do hide a little bit from him.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like what's an example of something you have hidden from him?

[Grace]

I think I hide how much food I eat out when I'm out and about. I'll often get absolutely ravenous when I'm out doing jobs or I'm like taking the, taking the girls to events or whatever. I'll be so hungry and they'll both be asleep in the car and I will drive into a drive through and buy a huge meal and eat it all on the way home. But I. I don't know, I think I got a bit of a weird thrill out of. Hi. Takes little small things.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you take the bag and throw it outside before you go inside?

[Grace]

Yeah, I do.

[Ramit Sethi]

How old are your kids?

[Grace]

Our eldest is three and our youngest, well, we only have two, but she's six months.

[Ramit Sethi]

Six months. Okay.

[James]

All right, all right, all right.

[Ramit Sethi]

What would you say the primary thing that changed, financially speaking, was when you had kids?

[James]

Obviously the childcare costs which are not under. Absolutely. As they are over astronomical now.

[Grace]

Well, they're, they're nowhere near what it is in America, James.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's where is. Just say the number so everybody in the US can get.

[Grace]

Sorry.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Grace]

Oh, don't get angry at us. I'm sorry.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's going to happen. What is it?

[Grace]

300, 355 per month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, Americans. Go ahead, roast them.

[Grace]

A little bit of socialism for you. The government pay 25% of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

God, this country is so sometimes. I'm sorry, parents. I just want everybody to understand Because I don't think people actually know. No, they don't know how policy affects their actual finances. Things like childcare, the government can assist with those. They can subsidize them. Maternity and paternity leave taxes. Yes, many other countries charge equivalent or higher taxes, but imagine getting subsidized childcare, paternity and maternity leave, the ability to get health care and not have to worry about a $78,000 bill, and on and on and on. Of course there are trade offs, of course there are trade offs. But just want everybody to understand when we're sitting here looking at these numbers, these numbers are not just picked out of thin air. They are the result of who we voted for, the result of our political systems, the result of what our culture will put up with. So, anyway, I appreciate you all coming here. In fact, now that we're talking about it, why don't we take a look at the actual numbers?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[James]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

What was it like to do this conscious spending plan together?

[Grace]

Oh, I loved us. Oh, I love it.

[James]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

I know that. James, what about for you? James got a weird look on his face like, oh, God, I.

[James]

It was surprising how off I was. Okay, I was off. And normally I'd be able to tell you off about what we. What we make, what we spend and everything, but I was quite a bit off. And literally a year. A year less than a year away from it. And I was. The numbers had changed and I was. Didn't know. Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Now, can I ask you, were you off because you forgot and. Or were you off because the numbers have changed so dramatically in the last 12 months?

[James]

A bit of both, wage wise. I got that. Right. Thought we were making a lot less than we were. And then the savings, I didn't realize how much we were actually putting in. I didn't realize we had so much. Ah, sorry.

[Grace]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow. Great.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, let's take a look. I think this is a great lesson for all of us, is that knowing your numbers is a skill. And if you stop looking at your numbers, which in your case, it makes perfect sense why you did, somebody gets sick, they have cancer, they're going through treatment. Of course they're not going to be sitting there looking at their CSP every week, but it just simply shows us this is a skill. And the more removed we get, the more we lose touch with it. But we can also get back in touch. All right, let's take a look. Okay, let's see. James, can you read the word in bold and then the number in full Next to it for this entire box, please.

[James]

Yeah. So assets 328,000. Investments 79,000. Savings 42,000 and debt 230,000. A total net worth of 219,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. What do you think about those numbers?

[James]

Great. In my head, if I took three months off, we wouldn't be able to pay the mortgage and we would be at money and we'd be on the streets.

[Ramit Sethi]

And obviously that has not come true.

[James]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you make of that now? In retrospect, I think a lot of.

[James]

It was psychological for what I was going through. You know, the idea of it's that whole kind of being provider thing. Even though I make a little bit less than her, I'm still. There's still that kind of holdover of being the man of the house type thing, you know? Yeah. And we've always talked about how, because Grace's wages kind of set, she's hit her max, really, because the HSE in, in Ireland is a set wage band, so she can't really go any higher without moving jobs or being promoted. Whereas obviously I, being in the private sector, I have a much more higher threshold that I can reach. And we always talked about before, while I was starting out, Grace was kind of up here already that eventually I would catch up, which is kind of where I am now. And eventually I would overtake her. So she would be able to kind of drop down to maybe part time or just nights and on call and everything and I'd be able to pick up the difference. And that's always kind of been in my mind a little bit. And I know in the grand scheme of things, like it's a year, less than a year that I'd be off, you know, I'm going to work until for another 30 odd years, whatever. But it still felt like it's a massive setback.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's quite perceptive, the idea that first of all, congratulations for talking about it. That is very rare. The fact that two people would look as objectively as possible at their careers and say, okay, here's where you are, here's where I am. Based on our trajectory, there'll be a certain point where we're going to intersect and then I'm probably going to make more. That's very forward looking. I wish everybody had those type of conversations, so well done. And then this is the hard part. You make a plan and then life gets in the way and something goes awry. Family happens, illness happens, layoffs happen, whatever. And I know because when I make a plan, I want that plan to happen. Like, if I tell you I'm going to be somewhere at 6, I'm going to be somewhere at 6. And if somebody goes, oh, let's actually switch it to 645, I'm like, Ah, it's, it's annoying. And I've had to train myself like, it's not the end of the world, but given my own plan fullness, I just want to follow the plan. And I see a bit of that in you, James. Even though when you look at the numbers, you realize it, it certainly did not put you on the street. Not even close. Okay. I think this is such a valuable lesson. I'm really thankful that you're sharing with all of us the idea that if I don't get this plan exactly right, I'm a failure. But what I can actually see from the two of you is the two of you working as a team. In any given time on a team, someone is stronger, someone is less, someone may be injured, someone is picking up the slack and it rotates. And that's, that's a team. And teams also are not only rated on how much money they make. And a lot of men look at themselves like that. It's not just that we absorb the lesson that we need to be providers. We actively encourage it. It's like, if I'm not making money, who am I? There are lots of ways to contribute to a relationship beyond making the incremental dollar. Grace, what did you think about those numbers?

[Grace]

When we first got pregnant? We had to stop. I was putting, well, we were both putting €500 into like a long term savings or like a long term investment fund and we had to stop that. So we haven't done that in like three. It's actually killing me not to have, not to be doing that, but we just can't really afford it now. And I'm really glad we didn't because we didn't have to take it out then to cover this situation. But I would love for those to be higher. It's making me a little anxious, but I am really delighted. Like, I didn't expect it to be that big either.

[Ramit Sethi]

Take a Look. Investments are 79,000.

[Grace]

Oh. Oh, gosh. Actually that's including our pensions. So yeah. And then our savings is separate.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just say that word again for all the Americans who have never heard it again, just say it was sent.

[Grace]

Pensions.

[Ramit Sethi]

All the boomers on the call, by the way, they're like, what are these guys talking about? I have a pension. My pension pays me 130% of my income. What are you talking about? Everybody has a pension. Oh. All right, let's continue on. Grace, will you read off your combined gross monthly income? What's that number?

[Grace]

9,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. 9,000 bucks or €9,000. I'll just call it dollars for. For easy. Yeah, 9,000 bucks. Which means that combined, the two of you make $108,000 per year. By a show of hands, who knew that number? Okay. Only Grace has her hand up. Thank you very much. All right, thank you for continuing my statistic. 50% of people do not know their own household income. And James, you thought it was lower? Yeah.

[Grace]

Okay, let me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just for kicks, how much did you think it was?

[James]

85.

[Ramit Sethi]

85,000. It's actually 108,000. So now that you're making, like, tens of thousands more than you thought.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you feel any differently?

[James]

No, because it doesn't feel like enough.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know what? Let's change the name of this show. Forget Money for Couples. Let's just call it Ramit was Right. That's it. That's what this entire show ends up becoming. Nobody knows their income. At least 50% don't. Then they go, if I made more money, I'd feel better. Then they make more money. Then they don't feel better, and on and on and on. I'm going to tell my producer right now, we're going to switch to the name of this show. All right, 108,000. What do you think about that household income?

[Grace]

To be honest, Ramit, it's more. Because I didn't include any of my overtime, which is Normally an extra 10 to 15k.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow.

[Grace]

Which is where all the savings comes from.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's great. Okay, so let's put. Let's put a pin in that. So it's even more than that. And how do you feel about that overall household income?

[Grace]

To be honest? Really good. It's. It's not a very common wage to get in Ireland at all.

[Ramit Sethi]

You make more than the average.

[James]

The average is about 60,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay.

[Grace]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. And James, it sounds like you feel good about the income as well.

[James]

Yeah. And then. Then you get the whole. You feel so guilty because you look at it and you think, God, you know, we're doing so much. We're doing really well compared to so many people. And so you feel like you can't feel bad. You can't feel guilt about. You can't feel that, oh, I need X amount or Y amount, you know, because you should be. You should count your blessings that what you have, you know?

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, I will say that's one of the reasons that I really love speaking to guests on this show. That until now all of this has felt like it has to be shrouded behind closed doors. You know, there are people making considerable incomes and they're just like, why do we feel behind? Why can't we actually save as much as we thought we would, making six figures? And until now you couldn't really talk to anyone about it because it's like, boo hoo, wealthy people, shut up. But I actually think that there are some legitimate questions. Sometimes people don't realize that their childcare costs are temporarily very high or they have not actually been automatically investing and that's why they have no investments. So I'm grateful that we get the chance to talk about them. I do have a question about the incomes. James, I believe your income was reduced. Is that reflected on the csp?

[James]

No, that's if I was in full wage.

[Ramit Sethi]

So can we update it to reflect what you currently make?

[James]

Mine's the 35, so mine be.

[Grace]

Probably 210, something like that.

[Ramit Sethi]

2100.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, 2100 instead of 3500 for gross. And then what would that take your net down to? Ballpark?

[Grace]

1 5, probably 1 6.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's say that. Okay. Wow. So quite a considerable difference. What just happened was your fixed cost jumped from 48% to 58%. So just for some context, your fixed costs originally were 48%, which is at least for the US quite low. And it jumped to 58% because of the reduction in net income. Still not bad. Not bad at all. Why don't we continue on and go down the rest of the numbers? Here we are, we're gonna.

[Grace]

Can I add something? Actually, as of this month, I am making €280amonth. So I have gone from full maternity pay, which was my 550, to zero. So I have three months unpaid currently, and then that we get the child allowance of €280amonth. So we are currently on zero money coming in from me for the next three months.

[Ramit Sethi]

And then what?

[Grace]

And then it goes back up to 5:50 and then I go back to work.

[Ramit Sethi]

Just so everybody knows, when she says 550, the way we say it is 5500. Just so everybody.

[Grace]

That's what I meant to say.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's totally fine. All right. You have a temporary reduction to essentially zero for three months.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, I'm going to. I'm not going to reflect that on the csp, but I'm going to Put a pin in that. And I'm also going to put a pit in the fact that you make approximately 10 to $15,000 more in overtime, which they sort of equal out.

[Grace]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's why I'm just going to. They're a wash and it will just confuse things. So we just put them to the side.

[Grace]

That's fair.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you confirm that you will be going back and making the same wages after three months?

[James]

Yeah.

[Grace]

When I go back to work in April, I'll be working four days a week and then doing one or two overtime shifts, which will get me back up to that great. That level.

[Ramit Sethi]

What I want to reflect for everybody listening and watching is when we are living this, we get caught in the weeds, necessarily. It's like this thing is happening, but in June it's going to be this and then it changes after two weeks. It's very, very detailed. That's how we have to live our lives. What the CSP allows us to do is to zoom up and focus on the key levers. Like in the grand scheme of things, having a three month reduction in wages for one person, even though it seems extreme, actually doesn't even need to be reflected on here because we have the overtime. So you can basically say it's a wash. We could get a little bit more precise, but in general it's a wash. And that allows us to focus on the big picture for so many of us. Yeah, we immerse ourselves in the weeds and we get paralyzed. And it is imperative that we zoom up and look at the big picture. You can just focus on the key levers, get 85% of the way there and in most cases move on with your life. So we're going to keep it as is. We're going to continue moving down that CSP. We got 58% on fixed costs. What's the percentage on investments? Can you read that number?

[Grace]

7%.

[Ramit Sethi]

7%. And that is in addition to a pension?

[Grace]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. 7% or $380 a month savings. Whoa. What's that number?

[Grace]

49%.

[Ramit Sethi]

49%. You American freaks complaining you can't save 4%. 49%. I'm coming back to that category. Oh, wait, wait, wait. That. Hold on, before I get too excited. What's this number under guilt free spending?

[Grace]

Oh yeah. Minus 14% negative.

[Ramit Sethi]

14. All right, so obviously the is, but no, it's messed up in general. I can see what your priorities are and I love that a CSP is the fingerprints of your life. If you looked at my csp you'd be like, this guy likes to travel. Like, it's very clear. Okay, but what I can see here is you like to save money. It's very obvious, even if the math isn't quite right. We'll fix that. I can see what is important to you. When you look at the csp, what do you notice? Grace first, then James.

[Grace]

I think that it's off because I. I basically put all of my overtime into savings, and it's normally about 2,000amonth extra.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do you do that? Just out of curiosity?

[Grace]

Because I want to. We're saving for a lot of things. We're saving for a renovation on the house. But I'm also really, really keen on saving for owning a house. There's always stuff that comes up. So I'm trying to make sure that we're saving into high yield savings and also an emergency fund.

[Ramit Sethi]

Sometimes people save money purely out of fear. It's what they were taught. They're afraid. All they know is frugality, which in their mind is seen as I gotta save and essentially hoard. And you can tell because when you ask them, why are you doing that? They just go like, well, yeah, you never know what could happen. And it just. It traces back to something their dad said when they were five. What you have told me is, look, I have plans forward looking. We're saving for the house, we're saving for this, we're saving for that. That's actually very important because what we do is determined by why we do it. And if your reason is, hey, I have key things that we are saving for, as I can see in your csp, then it becomes more constructive. It's not simply done reflexively out of fear. Under your savings category, you have vacations, 100 bucks a month, gifts 50, house renovation fund, 1000amonth, long term emergency fund, 1000amonth, and sinking funds, 558 per month, for a total of $2708. Now, it's quite interesting because you have 13 months of savings already. Were you aware of that?

[James]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Look at Grace's proud laugh. Tell us, Grace, how do you feel right now?

[Grace]

I feel great.

[Ramit Sethi]

Did you know that?

[Grace]

Yeah. And I've actually stopped putting it into the long term emergency fund, and I'm putting it into sinking funds now instead. Now that we've kind of got that year of savings, I want to start putting it into the investment again.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, James, what do you think when you see this conscious spending plan?

[James]

I honestly don't know. I couldn't. I Couldn't believe it. I don't trust investments, I don't trust banks, I don't trust stocks. But at the same time I was like, it's like I should feel good. And then like, I get so annoyed at myself. I'm like, why am I not happy about this? This is incredible. You know, why, why am I still so nervous about this? This is, you know, the fact that we could, I can go down 2/3 wage and Grace can have no wage and we're gonna be absolutely fine. Yeah. I mean, that's incredible how many people can say that honestly, like. And yet it still doesn't register really for me. It's weird.

[Ramit Sethi]

How connected do you feel to these numbers when you see them?

[James]

My whole wage goes straight into the joint account. Why? What I need to cover my bills and that pays for the kids school, mortgage.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait, wait, wait. I'm not asking about how the money flows. I'm asking how connected do you feel to these numbers?

[James]

It doesn't feel like it's my. My money.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's what I thought. What do you think was behind your answer? Where you started to give me all the money flows just now is literally.

[James]

I get my paycheck, I move over X amount to my joint account and then that's disappears. And then we have savings and we have sinking funds and we have roof over our head.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. And it's just like mechanized.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's like, it's like asking like, how do I feel about the way that a car turns on? I don't know, I just get in there and turn the thing and it turns on. I don't feel any way. It just works. It's a machine. Just to give you a point of comparison, when I see our numbers, I feel extremely connected to them. Not that I love looking at numbers. It's not that. It's that when many people see a spreadsheet or an investment portfolio, they see some zeros and sometimes they see their own failure. They will see things like, I should have started early, etc. When I see it, I see the ability to take a trip, the ability to not have to look at prices if we eat out once in a while. I see the ability that if somebody in our family needs help, we can help them. It's much deeper than the numbers. It's about the kind of rich life that we want to create for ourselves. So if I can ask you just for a second, James, to put on those lenses of not the logistics and the money flow, I get that, but rather what the money has allowed you to do. What do you see?

[James]

If I look at them, honestly, we are. And we are creating a life for our kids that I never had. I remember I filled the car up full without paying attention. I just paid it. Didn't have to look at the price. I just had a full tank gas and I paid it because I knew I could afford it. And I got back in the car and I was just like, it kind of distracted me. Like, you know, that's, you know, you don't. I didn't, I didn't look at how much that diesel was for that particular gas station. I just brought in because I needed it. I didn't go down to the cheapest one, which is a bit further down the road, you know, just filled up till it stopped and I paid it and I drove off.

[Ramit Sethi]

What it feel like?

[James]

Freedom.

[Ramit Sethi]

Freedom. What a beautiful example. Freedom is in the simplest of things. It's in filling up gas. It's in going to the grocery store and buying something because you can. It's rarely about the fanciest vacations and flying on first class. It's literally about being able to go to the restaurant and get a lemonade because your kid asks you for one. It's a beautiful example. James. This is part of what I want us to be able to do is, yeah, of course we're going to analyze the numbers a little bit more. But actually to, to go way deeper beyond the math and to say like, what does it mean? Grace, I see you reflecting on what you just heard. James, what's going through your head right now?

[Grace]

I just, I'm just really proud of us. I'm just so glad that all the work that we've been doing and all the work that I've been doing to kind of automate and make sure that our family's safe and happy, that it's working and you feel great. That's so nice.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love this. And big kudos to you, Grace, for picking up, picking up the load when James had to focus on his own health and for you continuing. And I have to say on a personal level, one thing that really impresses me is that you made trade offs. That's not easy. You said we're going to stop contributing to our investments even though, as you put it, it kills you.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's what a leader does. You said, look, I have to take over this decision making right now. My husband is sick.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And he did it. So I, I think the two of you should be commended. That's true teamwork. It's awesome. You know what's interesting is maybe today is a chance for the two of you to really take a second, celebrate how far you've come, and then to reflect on the next chapter.

[Grace]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

We can't stop bad things from happening. That's life. But what we can do is make a few smart decisions when things are going well so that when something unexpected happens, we can lean on our planning. In other words, we can plan for the worst when we are at our best. I have a friend. Just the other night, she got a note that her mom is sick. Her mom lives in a different country. She had to get on an international flight last minute. She booked the first ticket she could get her hands on. She didn't check 20 different prices to get the best deal. She just said, I have to go now. And that is the level of focus I want you to be able to have in a crisis, to be able to say, I don't care about anything else. Right now, my field of vision is narrowed to the one thing that matters. Getting on the next flight. Money is not my primary concern. I actually love this idea of money not being the primary determinant. I love it so much that I extended it to a personal money rule that I use for myself, not just for bad things, but also for good things. So my personal money rule is that for the big, important things in my life, I'm going to plan ahead so much that money is not going to be the first concern, the second concern, even the tenth concern, and that includes our wedding, our honeymoon, housing, and our health. Is this rule practical for most people? No. Is it right for me? Yes. That is the point of a rich life, which fits you like a bespoke coat. It is meant for you to live your rich life. And the more you turn that dial, the more your rich life is increasingly confusing, even bewildering, to other people. Now, the simplest way to start applying this concept of freedom when something bad happens is to start aggressively building your emergency fund. So when something bad happens, and it will happen at some point in your life, you will be ready, and money will not be your first concern. Now, for James and Grace, they made a series of money decisions during their journey. These decisions were not arbitrary. They were shaped by what they saw growing up. And we're going to get into that right after this break. Okay, I got a question for everybody. Why in America do we ignore all the infrastructure, all the invisible systems that make success possible? Like, I have shoes with shoelaces. Of course I know those shoelaces. Are going to become dirty one day. You think I'm going to wait until I see some dirty ass shoelaces before I walk outside? Oh, look at my dirty shoelaces. Hello. No, I have extra shoelaces. And not just one. I have two. That's called logistics. Think about all the other invisible things in our life. Our WI fi, the pipes in our house that make our daily lives possible. We've got to be able to pay attention to those things as well. And that also applies to your money, especially if you have children or dependents having term life insurance through our partner Fabric by Gerber Life to make sure that they are protected. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you. It's all online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is the best time to lock in rates. And even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family. Especially if you leave your job or get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to help protect their family. You can apply today in just [e-mail] Ramit M E E T fabric.com Ramit Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions all right, I have these money rules that I developed. You may have heard me talk about them like save 10%, invest 20% or I give myself unlimited spending on certain areas of life that I love. But a lot of people don't realize that these rules change over time. Like the same rules I had in my twenties are not relevant for me. This is why I am so big on doing a Rich Life review. Now part of this is looking at your numbers and figuring out your options, which is something that our friends at Facet can help with. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals. Always a cfp, always a fiduciary who help you create a personalized financial plan for your rich life goals. And they handle important things like investments, retirement planning, starting a family, becoming empty nesters, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan needs to adapt as your life changes. Facet makes getting professional financial advice more accessible without charging hidden exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. You can head to facet.com ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of FAST and I have an incentive to endorse FaceTime as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. I do want to know a little bit about how you grew up with money. James, I'm very interested. Just from what you told me about your gas, I have my suspicions about how you grew up. But what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[James]

We've never really talked about at all. We always had enough. As long as we had enough. We shouldn't grumble, you know, we had food.

[Grace]

Mustn't grumble. That's very English.

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that right?

[James]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Grace]

Stiff upper lip, you know, Mustn't crumble.

[Ramit Sethi]

And would you say, how would you describe socioeconomically, were you middle class? How do you describe that?

[James]

When in England, it's doesn't matter how poor you are. You always say, well, we're just, we're just about middle class. We're always just going to be, you know, you know, we never went hungry. We never, you know, we had Christmases and stuff. We didn't have holidays, we didn't have anything, any new cars or anything like that, but it was always enough.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, that's all interesting, but that doesn't answer my question. Trust me, we do the same thing in the US Everybody lies about being middle. I talk to people who have $5 million. They're like, well, we're just getting by. We, we're comfortable. I go, shut the up. Tell me what you are. You're rich. So now, looking back, how would you characterize your family socioeconomically?

[James]

When I got my first proper job, I was making more money than my mom and dad combined.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, that explains a lot. That explains the feeling of freedom from filling up your tank in the car. That explains a lot. When you got your first job and you made that much, did you ever talk about money with your parents then?

[James]

We talk about it more now, now that they're retired and you know, they're, they're, they. My dad was in the for the armed forces, so his pension's actually pretty good. Huh.

[Ramit Sethi]

What, what do they Say to you now, what do you talk about?

[James]

I hope. I worry that they don't have enough. I worry that they spend too much on our kids. I worry that, you know, they shouldn't be buying stuff for our kids. We can do that. You know, I worry when my mom asked me what do I want for Christmas, when I know she's gonna put it on a credit card. And I'm like, I don't need anything from. You've had enough.

[Ramit Sethi]

And can they afford it?

[James]

They must be able to. They haven't lost a house. Like, wait, that's.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a bit dramatic. I suppose. They must be able to buy toys. They're not homeless.

[James]

I honestly don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Like, I know, like, mom. Mom worked odd jobs part time and everything, and her pension is very small and.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you ever feel good about money?

[James]

I don't know how to answer that.

[Ramit Sethi]

I think that's the answer.

[James]

I like that. I like to look at my account and I know it won't be the negative. You know, I like that I can take up a hobby if I wanted. Honestly, I think my biggest worries, I think if I liked money, I'd spend it all. Like, I think if I got. I think I have a quite. I'd have quite a bad habit if I was to kind of really unleash myself of what I really wanted to do all the time.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let me translate. Tell me if I got this right.

[James]

Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I don't feel great about money. And that's actually a protective mechanism because if I let myself uncaged, feel good about money, I would just spend it all.

[James]

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a very common feeling that people who are ultra frugal have. They'll use certain phrases like, I don't need to eat at a fancy restaurant. Like, I'm perfectly fine with Taco Bell. Nothing wrong with Taco Bell. But what's really said beneath that phrase is I'm worried that if I go to this nice restaurant or nice hotel, that I might like it and then I might find myself actually needing to eat there every single day for the rest of my life. It's obviously absurd. What to me, what it shows is a lack of self trust. I can eat at a nice restaurant a couple times a year, I can enjoy it and then I can come home and say, that was nice and I don't need to go back there for another six months. Like, I trust myself to make the right decisions and to indulge occasionally knowing That I can afford it, but this idea of, like, let me keep myself caged because I'm a wild animal and I'm wild. We can work on that.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Grace, am I getting this right?

[Grace]

Yeah, 100%. 100%.

[James]

But then, like, you know, when we. When we say we're looking up a holiday or something, I always look at more expensive things than you do.

[Grace]

Yeah, it's true.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why is that?

[Grace]

I think you're a bit of a dreamer. I think you're constantly thinking, oh, well, when we have a million euro, when we win the lotto, we're gonna do this. And when we do this. And I think you love the idea of thinking about having this money and what you would do. And then when I. So you look up the expensive holiday and I'll come back with the actual price because I'll do a little bit of research. And then you'd be like, well, obviously, we're just going to Wexford for.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, wait a minute, that was my question. So he looks up the expensive things and then where do you actually stay?

[Grace]

Oh, we don't go.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, wow, okay. What the hell kind of story was that? I look up the expensive things and then we don't go. What is that? Yeah, all right.

[Grace]

Sorry.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, that's actually extremely insightful and I think the characterization of potentially dreaming a bit. I don't mind dreams. Like, I like them. I like saying, like, ooh, wouldn't it be nice? I love that. But I like to go one step further, which is, hey, do you actually want to stay there? Because if you do, we could. We might not be able to do it this year, but we could put some money aside and we know exactly mathematically how long it's going to be. It might take two and a half years and then we could go there. We'll literally put it on the calendar right now. Do you want.

[Grace]

This is what I say to him. This is what I'd say. And then he like, no, no, no, no, it's crazy. We can't spend that.

[Ramit Sethi]

And do you know why? Do you know why he says that? No, ask him.

[Grace]

Why do you say that? Why do you.

[James]

Because it's a dream. We can't afford it, really, but we.

[Grace]

Can look at our savings.

[James]

What if I get sick again? You know, they said it was going to be gone the first time and it came back.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[James]

What if it comes back again? What if I can't work for another year and this time work won't pay for it?

[Grace]

Then you do the childcare and I Work and it's all fine.

[James]

I wouldn't mind that at all, actually.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What I'm hearing is we're having fun. I love talking to the two of you, but I really love peeling the layers and going deeper. And beneath the jokes about the gas and the hotels, there's actually paying. The idea that, look at what we've been through together. It has been hard and what if we have to go through it again? What are we going to do? We did it once.

[Grace]

I don't know if we can do it again.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's acknowledge that we don't have to fix it this very minute. But what I can tell is money is deeply emotional. We try to nibble around the edges, we try to ignore it. We, you know, we use logistical answers, but actually, like, the logistics are fine. We can fix some things here and there. That's not what you're coming to me for. It's because there's something much deeper here. Much deeper. Grace, can you tell me what you remember growing up? What did your family say about money when you were young?

[Grace]

Both my parents come from really big families and they were. They would have been middle class in the 50s in Ireland, which was very, very still quite poor compared to the rest of the world. My mom was a nurse and she was what they call the laying hen. So she would be the one with consistent money coming in. And my dad started his own business and it's. And it worked super hard all his life, but we were, to be honest, probably upper middle class. They did a huge amount of work. They bought, they invested in properties. They were very smart with their money. But one of the things that always sticks out in my mind is my dad, he had a business at one time where he made automatic gates, and we had an automatic gate installed in our house and that was seen to be, like, really rich. And then my mom pulled me aside and I think I was in primary school or something, she said, now, don't tell anyone we've got automatic gates because they think we're rich and we're not.

[James]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

When you remember this story from, you know, decades ago.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Why do you remember this story in particular?

[Grace]

I think she was a bit frightened about money. I remember coming home from Irish College one day and they had a hot tub in the house. They had a hot tub in the. And I was like, where the hell did this get? They were like, well, instead of buying a new car, we. We got a hot tub instead. And I was like, what? They're doing really, really well. But I always had the feeling that it was like a secret.

[James]

Yeah.

[Grace]

That we couldn't tell anyone.

[Ramit Sethi]

In. In what ways do they downplay their success publicly?

[Grace]

They would never show off. We'd never buy expensive cars or anything like that. It was all very practical, normal.

[Ramit Sethi]

What if I met them and I asked them, what do you do? What would they say? It's a very American question, by the way.

[Grace]

Yeah, they would say, oh, sure, we're retired and enjoying it and we're traveling around the world now and having a great time.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what are they going to do with the money when they pass?

[Grace]

They're very generous with it and I think it'll go to. It'll go to us. There's three of us in the family and they're going to split everything equally. And we had conversations about it and kind of four, like, kind of. They don't want us fighting over anything. And I'm like, that's fine. Like, we're all quite successful, which is really brilliant.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, it's kind of a striking example for everyone listening and watching that. You can see parents who learn about money and talk about money between themselves. They tell their kids about money.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

They have set you, Grace, up with a very good financial education. And they'll talk and they'll say things. Hey, don't tell everyone at school like, we're not rich. Well, you may have been rich or certainly upper middle class, but I can understand parents not wanting their kids to go and blab. You know, I, I understand, but it's not a surprise to me that siblings often turn out similarly with money. Not always, but they grew up with the same money messages. And to me, the big takeaway from this is, you better get good with money and you better talk to your kids about money, because it's not an accident. If you want your kids to grow up equipped to deal with the world, you talk to them from the time they are 3, 4, 5. Otherwise some head selling whole life insurance is going to be taking over that role and you really don't want that. So let me ask the two of you, the two of you grew up quite differently with money. When was the first time you substantively talked about money in your relationship?

[James]

Australia. Yeah, it was actually kind of a. Bit of a. Kind of our first kind of really big fight because Grace went to Australia. Actually, when I met her, when I first met her, she'd already planned on to move to Australia. And I was, I didn't really have. I was kind of working part time, wasn't really making any Money, living at home still. And then she left. And then after a few months I was like, I, I can't let her go. So I quit everything and moved across follower. And to me this is the first time that I traveled really ever. And it was the other side of the world.

[Ramit Sethi]

Hold on. It's very romantic.

[Grace]

What the hell is going on?

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm like, yo, this is a good story. Sorry, go on.

[James]

We bought a camper van, we traveled down the west coast of Australia for six months and. And then Grace got a radiography job and I was doing odds and end. We had a small flat which was dirt cheap because it was right next to the airport in the flight path. So you know, the best alarm clock in the world is a Bowen landing over your head and six in the morning. So I was making money so I could enjoy Australia, whereas she was taking care to make money so she could save. And then her plan was to maybe go back or stay. There was a ice cream shop around the corner that I really liked and if race is having a bad day, I'd get her some. And she was just get so mad that I was spending money on ice cream. And I think that was the first time we kind of really talked about it in. We hadn't talked about it, we hadn't talked about what our kind of idea and goals were when we were out there. And it was kind of a really eye opening for me because I remember Grace was talking, she wasn't talking about what she wanted to have, the money she was making. It was what about the money's gonna do for us? It was we. And I hadn't been thinking like that at all.

[Ramit Sethi]

Honestly, I'm very impressed, actually shocked in a pleasantly shocked. Because that story tells me so much and I really appreciate you sharing it with me. The idea that James, you had never really traveled before. You get on a plane, you go across the world to chase a girl. The two of you living a very frugal life, living under flight path. Just like we got to make it work. But what really strikes me is the way that you looked at money differently. I can just imagine, James, the way you grew up like not thinking much further ahead. Most people, at least the ones I talked to in the US they are literally thinking about that month, maybe next month and that's it. And. And I'm begging people to think further ahead. Six months, a year, ultimately 20 years. Because when you look that far ahead, you can actually achieve amazing things. You can take the trips you want, you can buy the car you Want. It's awesome. What's amazing is Grace was already doing that. Grace has been thinking about money, talking about money in her family since she was a kid. The fact that the two of you got in a fight about freaking ice cream cones is hilarious. This is a great example where sometimes the most substantive conversations can come from what seems like the most trivial. Purchase ice cream and look at. Look at what happened. You built a life together as a team.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Starting way back with the freaking ice cream purchase. Now, I want to ask you to. There's a reputation for people in Ireland, let's just say the uk, for feeling guilty about money.

[Grace]

Oh, yeah?

[Ramit Sethi]

Is that true?

[Grace]

100%. 100%.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like you feel guilty about making it, spending it, talking about it.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So how are you two so open? How come you're so comfortable talking about it right now?

[Grace]

I think it's because it clicked with me. I was in work one day and I had a meeting with one of these pension guys. And we have a system in Ireland I didn't know about it really, called additional voluntary contribution. It's a pension. It's kind of the only way you can save money with benefiting with tax. But I didn't really know anything about it. But I made a meeting. I had a meeting with this guy and I said, listen, I know nothing. Tell me about this. And he walked through. If I did nothing, how much money I would have when I was 65, 70, I think on my contract it says I have to work until I'm 70 before I get a pension, but it was something like €8,000 a year. And that number stuck with me. And I was like, that cannot happen. A, I'm not working until I'm 70 because I can't be hauling patients around when I'm 70, so I need to retire earlier than that or do something different. And B, like, I can do something now. And he was like, right, if you start saving now, you can have this much or whatever. I think it was like a million. And I was like, lol. Okay, let's try. And so I started learning all about it. And what I really started being annoyed about was no one else was talking about this. Everyone in work was like, what are you doing talking about pensions? You know? Because I was like, no, you need to go and. And learn about this because you'll only be getting 8,000 in a year. And everyone was like, oh, I'll deal with that when I'm 50. So it was really frustrating me that people were just weren't talking about money. And especially women. Yes, we get a fabulous maternity leave, but it also affects our pension and all this sort of stuff. And. And as women, for me, I feel like it's. You have to have your own something. Something to fall back on because we are in a more vulnerable position at certain times in our lives if we're having children, all that sort of stuff. So I started being sort of militant about it.

[Ramit Sethi]

You looked ahead, decades ahead, and you said, that's not going to be the future for me. I'm going to make changes right now. And you did. I love that. And it's reflected, by the way, in your CSP. I can see it with a 49 savings rate. It's obviously very clear. When you both think back to the messages that you grew up with around money. Which of those messages do you think you bring to this relationship today?

[James]

Debt, I think, and credit cards. And anything that isn't like, is the is. Is literally the be or an end or you should never, ever, ever, ever own. Like, we don't. We like our car. We just. We saved up. We bought it outright, and our old car is. God, it's 13 years old.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your lesson is you bring an aversion to debt to this relationship. Is that right?

[James]

Yeah, I think so.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, what else?

[James]

Yeah, Gifts. Physical things as showing love.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ooh, that would explain the ice cream.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That you could not afford, actually.

[James]

Yeah. And I think if there's one thing I actually spend my money on, it's toys for the kids. Because I remember Thunderbirds. There was a big toy island that every kid had to have, and I couldn't have it. And instead mom made me one out of Plasticine and. And out of toilet roll and stuff and painted it and everything. And I. Oh, that's kind of adorable.

[Ramit Sethi]

And, like, sad at the same time. I kind of love it. Yeah, that's really beautiful. Do you have a bunch of toys in the house?

[Grace]

Yeah, they're everywhere.

[Ramit Sethi]

No credit card debt?

[Grace]

No. I have a sinking fund for kids toys. Every week there's about €80 that goes into the sinking fund for, like, stuff they might need.

[Ramit Sethi]

80 a week. I know I'm not in touch with kids toys prices, but that seems like a lot.

[Grace]

No, no, no. It's not just for toys. It's for, like, swimming lessons and trips away and things like that. Sorry.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Can you say no to your kids?

[James]

No.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, great. You both admit it.

[James]

All right.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Grace, what messages do you bring from your childhood that you bring to this relationship with money?

[Grace]

I think communication. I always Saw my mom and dad have conversations about money, and mom always did the books for Dad's business, so they'd always just have them have the books out, and mom would be talking about taxes and returns and. And it would just be like in the air, like the conversations. And they never fought about money. It was always just a discussion or, you know, And I think that's what I've almost forced you into, James, because it was. One of the things that is essential to me in a relationship is to be honest and open about money. And then I'm the one that's hiding stuff. I don't know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Well, let me say that I. I really appreciate what you just said about your parents. And I hope that the children of every guest that I speak to on here say the same decades from now that they will say, my parents didn't fight about money, but they talked about it. It was always a discussion. It was always in the air. That's actually what I want. I don't want money to be hidden. I don't want it to be a source of tension, although sometimes it will be, and that's okay. I want it to be an important part of the family, just like food, just like respecting your elders, just like studying and having fun. Money is one of those core parts of a family. It has to be in the air. And when we shine a light on it, instead of hiding it, then we can build a healthy relationship with it. I love that Grace didn't sit back and hope things would improve. She learned how pensions work, work. And then she made a decision that is going to have a huge impact on her future. That is what's known as having an internal locus of control. An internal locus of control is the belief that you can control your future. Compare that to someone with an external locus of control who believes simply that life happens to them. So which one are you? Do you have an internal locus of control or an external locus of control? To answer that question, take a look at your own behavior with fitness, food, your relationships, your career and money. External or internal? It's quite an interesting question to think about. This has actually been one of the biggest questions that I have come back to throughout my career. We all know intuitively that if we eat better, we will be healthier. We know that if we save and invest, we will be more secure. So why don't we do it? This is the question I've been thinking about since the year 2000. One reason, and it's a big one, is that a lot of people don't actually believe that they can control anything around them. A lot of them have tried before or they've been told it's out of their hands or they have tried and it failed over and over and so they simply stop trying. That can lead to an external locus of control and I think this is one of the most overlooked reasons that people stay stuck. These beliefs are shaped by a lifetime of experiences, even multi generationally. A lot of you watching this right now had some great grandfather who something bad happened to and that story, that myth or legend was almost passed down your family tree. And today you think you cannot affect the way the world works because of what a great grandfather somebody you know never met experienced a hundred plus years ago. If you're listening to this and you're starting to realize, oh my gosh, I want to have an internal locus of control. I want to take control of my money and make rapid changes then I can help inside my Money Coaching program. I'm going to walk you through the exact systems that I use to take control of your money and start seeing real results. You can join the [e-mail] money coaching now. Grace believed she could make a difference in her own life. She saw the lever, she pulled it and she got results. Up next, we'll take a closer look at the other changes Grace and James are considering as they build their rich life. My best tip for new Business owners Nobody cares what font you're using or the alignment on your website. None of that matters if you don't have customers. If you are starting a business this year, focus on making sales instead of all the ancillary stuff like setting up the perfect font on your website. And that is why I recommend you start with Shopify. Shopify is the best converting checkout on the planet. It's used by 10% of all E commerce in the US including big brands like Mattel and Gymshark. Makes shopping easier for your customers. Plus, they've already got easy templates for things like websites and landing pages with AI tools that help with everyday tasks like generating discount codes and enhancing images. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com/ramit go to shopify.com/ramit shopify.com/ramit if the two of you continue on the way that you have with your money, when something comes up in life, what do you think happens after the Next time and the time after that and the time after that, what do you think will happen?

[Grace]

Oh, I will just collapse.

[James]

I'd worry for us as a. As a couple.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[James]

You know, or it just becomes too much. What if we can't support the other one anymore? Which just sounds crazy, but I don't think that would ever happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

It does sound crazy. I mean, you have such a beautiful teamwork here.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

There's no doubt about it. It's so obvious. But I also think the two of you are very good at putting your blinders on and moving forward. And what a shame to live that way when you actually have all the ingredients for a true rich life. What I see in you versus what I see when I talk to other people who perhaps were not raised to save money, who did not have a healthy education about money. Right. They didn't have those role models. And so I'm having a different conversation with them. I'm actually trying to show them why it's important to save money at all. The two of you have the ingredients for greatness, and in many ways, we can see it on the csp. It's reflected, wow, what a savings rate. It's incredible. Maybe the way that you talk about money and behave with money could. Could be tweaked a bit. I just want to reflect the two of you went through an incredibly stressful situation. I don't think anybody can give you feedback on how you did. Who the hell knows what it's like to have one kid on the way, a young kid, husband who's going through cancer treatments, morning sickness, like nobody. So what we can say is, I think you handled it the best you could. I think you've done a pretty phenomenal job. And I think that life is going to be stressful in other ways. And what I want to do is I want to equip you so that you can continue to get closer together, not let these stressful situations tear you apart. Right. How does that sound?

[Grace]

Yeah, that sounds great.

[James]

Wonderful.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, awesome. Have the two of you talked about what your rich life vision is?

[James]

Retiring early.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Retiring early. Great. Any IDEA what age?

[Grace]

50.

[Ramit Sethi]

50. Okay. All right. So that's like about 12 or so years away. What else? Grace, what's in your rich life?

[Grace]

I would love to be able to go on two or three holidays a year, one back to the uk And I would love to be able to bring your parents, James, on holidays somewhere, because they really haven't been on many. And I would love to be able to help my kids the way that I was helped, you know, financially going into college and stuff. Oh, I really want to do the renovation on the house. That'll be so incredible. Oh, my gosh. I want to have my own craft room upstairs with the light. I would love to probably go down to maybe two days. Two or three days a week working, and then the other two or three days work on my own businesses. I loved creating community and hosting events.

[Ramit Sethi]

Cool. All right, so here's what I'm. What I'm hearing from both of you is you, you want to live a very rich life. Like, these aren't. Oh, I don't know, like, when we're 70, maybe we want to take a trip to the Grand Canyon. No, it's like we want to retire early, want to renovate the house, we want to travel three times a year. This is a lot. I love it right now. How do you feel about money?

[Grace]

Just nervous about if something like this is going to happen again. Are we going to be okay? Are we going to be able to manage it? Because we actually. We had a serious illness cover in addition to life insurance.

[Ramit Sethi]

How much did they pay you?

[Grace]

30,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow, that's great.

[Grace]

It was really, really amazing. So that really saved. Saved our. And it helped us. That's where a lot of the savings have come from.

[Ramit Sethi]

So when I think about your rich life, I'm thinking, first, can we set things up so that you are safe and resilient? First, we can get to the home renovations and the travel. Second. Yeah, Safety first. How do you both feel about that?

[Grace]

Yes.

[James]

100%.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I want to know that if James gets sick again, or Grace, for that matter.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That the family is financially safe. And wouldn't that feel good to know that you have the math, that you both understand it and most importantly, you are both connected to it.

[Grace]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's like wipe away these blurry lenses. In fact, throw them away. We know that we're safe and now we have earned the right to talk about the next part of our rich life. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to put the CSP up on screen and I would like to get your help to try to figure out what needs to happen in order for you both to be safe. Quick recap here. Your assets, 328k investment, 79k savings, 42k and debt, 230k. That's a total net worth of 219k. Income is 91,200.

[Grace]

That will go up when you go back to work. James.

[Ramit Sethi]

James. When is that happening?

[Grace]

January.

[James]

January 1st.

[Grace]

January or February, I'd say.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, let's leave it for now. But we can change it. Fixed costs are at 58%. Again, things are a little bit different where you're living because of pensions and etc. I just do want to reflect on some of the numbers in this fixed cost because they're quite. They're quite amazing. So Your mortgage is $997. What the 997. There's not even four digits in your.

[Grace]

It's incredible, right? It's incredible.

[Ramit Sethi]

This is another one. I just want to say it again just so people get even more pissed. Childcare is $355. Again. There's only three digits in that number. This is insane.

[Grace]

That's for 45 hours a week. And they get. They feed her and they include. Yeah, it's unbelievable.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love it. I want easy child care for all parents. Like, how can you expect parents to have kids and to work if it's freaking thousands of dollars? Okay, let's go on. I'm getting mad right now. All right. Car payment, $200. Debt payments, 200. What's that for?

[James]

Oh, that's my student loan.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, okay, wait, how much is your student loan?

[James]

20,000.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, fine. Groceries are 600amonth. Oh my God. I feel like I'm living in like 1985. What? The phone is $30?

[Grace]

Yes, for both of us.

[Ramit Sethi]

How is this possible?

[Grace]

I call every year and I'm like, I want to move down to Tesco Mobile, which is like the super, super budget. And they're like, oh, we can do that for blah, blah, blah. So it's fifth. I'm currently paying €15.

[Ramit Sethi]

I see so many CSPs. The thing about the CSP, I feel like some formula got messed up and Every number has 10 dropped off of it. Like literally every number is missing a zero. This is crazy. 34. Phone should be 300 in the U.S. all right, so your investments again, just to sum it up, you are doing 960. Let's call it thousand bucks a month plus 380. So roughly 1300 bucks a month for your investments on a salary of about 91,000 gross, 49% on savings and negative 14% on guilt free spending. Obviously that doesn't work. And you, you mentioned that you feel stressed out about money.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You see why.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you don't have any money to eat out or to do anything, but yet you are still buying all these toys.

[Grace]

I know.

[Ramit Sethi]

Actually the worst of both worlds.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Might as well just be honest about it. And maybe stop buying so many toys. I don't know. That's up to you. So what do we need to do in order to change these numbers? Because they actually need to be rationalized. We need to pick appropriate numbers. You can choose based on what you want for your rich life, but then you actually got to stick to them. If you want to change them later, you could change them six months from now. But one of the most important things is, hey, let's pick numbers together that match up with our vision and then let's both agree to stick to them. And after six months, we can reevaluate. How would you change these numbers based on what you said your rich life vision was?

[Grace]

I think we're saving too much. Okay. Definitely. I would like to save a thousand per month.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. You're doing that right now into your emergency fund. Keep in mind you already have 13 months of emergency fund.

[Grace]

Yes. So I. I'll stop the emergency fund and we'll just keep. For the house, maybe. Yeah. Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

So let's drop. You're drop the long term emergency fund off.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Watch what happens. Okay. Your savings drop down to 31% and your guilt free spending is now at 4% or $216 per month.

[Grace]

I spend more than that, but it's.

[Ramit Sethi]

A good directional change. So it's interesting because you do have 13 months of savings, which I think is great. When James, you got sick, I'm guessing you burned through your savings pretty quickly. Sorry for this question, but what's the likelihood of this happening again?

[James]

In theory, it shouldn't. Okay. Because you have gone through treatment, had surgery, scans look good. Okay. But there is no obviously exact.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you concerned, financially speaking, health wise, obviously. But financially speaking, are you concerned we're.

[Grace]

Not going to get that extra. We're not going to get that insurance payout again?

[James]

No.

[Grace]

Because he's uninsurable now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Can I say this? If I were in your situation, here's how I would approach this. I would say, look, I think we've done an amazing job, especially Grace. Done an amazing job of shepherding all this stuff while I had to focus on my health. We have 13 months of savings. That's incredible. But I'm in a high risk situation.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

If I get sick again, we do not have the same benefits that we had last time. I think that we should save what to others might seem like an irrationally high amount of money, but for our high risk situation, it makes sense. What number should that be? I don't know. Let's talk about it. Okay. Let's settle on 18 months of savings.

[Grace]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that sounds good.

[Ramit Sethi]

And once you have that, it's locked away and you know that that's your break in case of emergency. But 18 months gives you time. You can adapt. You can cut your spending, you can extend it. You're not going to count on all these subsidies and, and things like that, payouts, but it gives you time. What do you think about that?

[James]

That's, I like that.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

The point is we need to pick a number that's reasonable and, and will serve the needs, financially speaking, in case one of you gets sick.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. I don't think I've recommended to anyone 18 months of savings. Like my own personal thing. I, I, I like to have a year and that's quite aggressive already. But 18 months in your situation, considering all the things we've talked about, could make sense.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. So if that is the case, then can we go back to the CSP and let's just take a look. We actually just took that emergency fund down to zero. What do you think?

[Grace]

I would say we'll pause the renovation fund and move the long term saving fund into that. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wow. Okay. So now we're back up to 31% for an emergency fund. We're putting a thousand dollars a month away. You have zero towards the renovation fund. Anything else?

[Grace]

Vacations only. 100 Euro really would make a difference to cut that. I don't really want to stop going.

[Ramit Sethi]

On holidays at a hundred dollars a month.

[Grace]

Yeah, it's not really gonna make, it's.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not gonna make a difference. And you both told me you like vacations.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And like you've gone through a lot. I don't mind it. I think if you wanted to save a hundred bucks a month, there are other places you could do it from.

[Grace]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Now that we have rationalized this a bit, you have 31% going to savings, which actually seems, I mean, it's a little high, but it's appropriate. You don't have enough in guilt free spending.

[Grace]

No, I don't.

[Ramit Sethi]

I understand that for the next three months, reduced income, but it's going to go back up. I'd like to just plan for real life. So tell me the numbers and I will adjust them here so my way.

[James]

Back to three five. Sorry, how, how do you say 3500?

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And your net income will be what, what?

[Grace]

2673.

[Ramit Sethi]

$2673. Okay. Wow. Let's see what just happened. Fixed costs are down to 48%. Amazing. A total reflection of your core values right here. Which is like, we don't need a big old fancy house. We don't need a big old fancy cars. It's all quite modest, which I like. I really like that. Next up, Investments are at 6%. Oh, my God. Savings are at 26%. But all the way down to guilt free spending. Look at Grace's face. Look at that big old smile. She goes, yes. Yeah. Okay. And James is smiling too. Guys, I love this.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

So you're at 21% or $1,389. Now, what do you think about that number?

[James]

Like, we always overspend on guilt free stuff. And then in our heads we said, well, we can only spend X amount. And then we beat ourselves up because we spent over it. But now looking at that, actually what we have been spending has been reasonable for the amount of money we do make. And we shouldn't be beating ourselves up because, I mean, we go out to dinner maybe once every other month and we have takeaway probably every once or three months or so.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love the lies already. Oh, everybody notice the lies. Just rewind five seconds and look at Grace's face. Yes. This is the favorite time of Ramit Sethi's life.

[Grace]

Oh, God.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay, why don't we just discuss where you all have been spending guilt free spending money?

[Grace]

Yeah, let's do that.

[Ramit Sethi]

Go ahead, Grace.

[Grace]

This September, I have it on my little spreadsheet. We spent €250 on dining out.

[Ramit Sethi]

Wait, can you just put this on screen? I'd love to look at it myself. Oh, great. Okay, hold on. Let me just describe what I see right now. So this is a nice looking spreadsheet and it's got some different categories. Scroll up a little bit, if you don't mind. So we have cash flow overview, bills, expenses. I can see at the bottom tabs, we have August, September, October, November 25th. And on and on and on. Okay, very good. Let's go down a little bit. What's nice? So I see the day it's due. The budget amount, for example, the mortgage 996. And then the actual. Which is 996. That's great.

[Grace]

And then the expenses. On the. In the orange is the. Like every day, day to day.

[James]

Read out, read out the kids one then.

[Grace]

Oh God, the kids one. The budget was a hundred and I actually spent. We actually spent a thousand. 133. What the.

[Ramit Sethi]

On what?

[Grace]

Now? Let me see. Let me see.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh my God. Amazing. Stop right here.

[Grace]

Stop.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right here. Okay, everybody remember what James said about 45 seconds ago? He goes, oh, we eat out, what, once every three months? Or some B.S. okay, look at this. September 3rd, dining out, off the bone lunch. I don't know what that is, but it sounds expensive. Next day, McDonald's. 525. That's quite modest. Moving along, kids. What are these? I don't even know what any of these words are. Knit, comb, and dodies. What does that mean?

[Grace]

So it's just pacifiers and stuff just in case there was. There was headlights in the, in the, in the crash. So I just wanted to be prepared. Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

More words? I don't know. I thought I spoke fluent English. All right, moving along. We got Starbucks. This is all on the 4th. Dining out the next day, $20.90 for coffee. Next day, dining out, $20 at McDonald's. Okay. And on and on and on. Okay, you could take this off screen for a second. Wait, I love. Hold on. Just look at this.

[James]

Look at this.

[Ramit Sethi]

Look at row number 95. Temu. Like, this is the only. This is the only one I've seen where people put what they spent, but then they go in there and add comments that are like, oh, or like, who does this?

[Grace]

Everyone should do it. It's great. Crack.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right, take this off screen, please. Okay, first of all, are you going to tell me you only eat out once every three weeks or three months or whatever?

[James]

James, none of that is me.

[Grace]

It's true. It's me. It's all me.

[Ramit Sethi]

Oh, yeah. So we're. We're a team. Except when it comes to eating out.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

All right. Do you have a. Because you have this sort of well constructed budget. You know, it has all the stuff in it, but when we go to the actual discretionary stuff, you're behind on. On many of the things.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What do you think about that?

[Grace]

I actually find it so hard to stick to the budget. Bills are fine. I can argue down bills, I can argue down everything. But when it comes to like sticking to the budget that was set, it's more of like a tracking expenses rather than like sticking to the actual budget. I don't know how to explain it. I'm not doing it very well.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's easy to track. It makes us feel like we are doing something. But the one thing you are not doing when it comes to changing your behavior is changing your behavior. Yeah, it's a distraction for us. We track it. We go through it. We tell ourselves we're looking for patterns, that we, you know, the pattern. It's very obvious from looking at it for five seconds. The real energy should be spent on saying what is the overall vision of our rich life, which we've done some element of today. How much do we want to apportion to different four key buckets? Okay, we've done that. Now we know those numbers, we know what the finished puzzle looks like. How are we going to get there? That's where the energy should go. Tracking is irrelevant. Yeah, you should track a couple of discretionary things like eating out. One of you should own that number and you, you can track it through your credit card, debit card, whatever. But the, the level of tracking here is actually not getting you what you want. It's getting you a distraction. How does it feel to hear that?

[Grace]

I know this. I know this in my soul.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay, great. I personally think that you are destined for something bigger than tracking 100 rows of expenses on a spreadsheet. I just do. There's got the stuff that the two of you have been through, the way that you have done it together, you've tackled really hard stuff and it would be a shame to focus your energy in this small of a way.

[Grace]

I think it's the same thing that I was doing with the tomatoes. You know, it's the control. If I can just get it down on paper, then I can make sense of it. But actually I. I know what's wrong.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah. What do you think might be a different alternative to that approach that you've taken with the tomatoes and with the budgeting?

[Grace]

Zooming out a little bit more and seeing a little bit more about the importance of it, really. I enjoy process. I always have. I enjoy knitting, I enjoy spinning. I enjoy, you know, the meticulous details. I really like that. And I find that I can't do my knitting spinning, blah, blah, blah, because I'm minding children. So instead I will focus it on things that are for the family, like meticulously tracking the budget or making food for my family. But I don't need to be doing it in this way, putting in so much effort. I probably need to just relax a little bit.

[James]

Wow.

[Ramit Sethi]

Do you think one of the. One of the most profound things I've heard on this podcast. Your level of self perception is really high and you just mentioned something offhandedly. I pro. I probably don't need to. I think you said something like work as hard or put the amount of time in.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you say it a different way? Would you be comfortable putting less work into this?

[Grace]

I don't Know why that's hard? Because I love like. But, yeah, I think I need to, like, put less work in to do. To do what then?

[Ramit Sethi]

Isn't that the key question that so many of us ask? And if I stop doing this, if I delegate this, then what will I do? And on a deeper level, who am I? Yeah, who am I? If I'm not canning tomatoes for the family and tracking this detailed report that's available for the last three years of expenses? Who am I? Can you answer it for me, Grace? Who would you be?

[Grace]

I would just be probably just mom and wife. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, moms are not loved because they have the most extensive spreadsheet in the world. Wives are not loved because they track every single expense. That's not why they're loved. None of us are. Yeah. Part of getting to the next level of where you want to get is having a crystal clear vision of where you want to go. And both of you as a team, working to get there. You already did the easy stuff, then you got stronger. You had to, because you had to go through tougher stuff. You went through illness. Very difficult. Most of us cannot understand what that's like. You did it. And now to get to the next level, the level where you are safe as a family with 18 months of saving setup.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Where you are showing your children a healthy relationship with money that probably requires not doing some of the same things you used to and actually saying, I choose not to because in order to get where we're going, that's not my future anymore. James, what's coming up for you as you hear this?

[James]

What you've been talking about is just there has just been in the background for so long and we haven't been able to kind of express it. You know, sometimes I feel like she's so focused on the saving money, the canning tomatoes. But, you know, we never get to eat the tomatoes, we never get to spend the money. We never get to. It's a process. And then once it's done, it's put on a shelf, it's put into savings, and then we're on to the next one. And so to be who she'll be if she doesn't do that, you know, she'll still be, you know, the best mom, should still be my perfect wife. You know, that's not going to change. We'll just maybe have a bit more time together, you know, enjoy our rich life, as you say. And so I hope a big part of her not being held to take on all this is that I Will be able to come back on board and that we can start being a team again. Now that I'm hopefully out the end of this, that I can can start taking on some of that burden, and she can maybe relax a little bit, Let the steamer off that pressure cooker and let it vent.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, James, you were always a team. Didn't stop because you got sick.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Not once have I heard either of you insult the other. Haven't heard it. If anything, bending over backwards to support each other. And you were a team always. I think the way that the two of you talk about money reveals so much the idea, James, that you maybe deep down think that you've let down your partner, but of course, you have not. You got sick. Now you're better. You put in a lot of work to make that happen, and now you can come back and you can participate in the numbers more than you were able to perfect. Amazing grace. The idea that you have to control everything, that you may not be a good mom or wife if you're not tracking numbers reveals so much. What I love, what I'm seeing the two of you get is, hey, we've made this work. We've made it work. We're actually very grateful at what we've been able to go through. But now perhaps there's a new way to look at our money together. Maybe it's not about going way down into the weeds. Maybe it's about coming up with a few key levers, those four key numbers, and, like, actually creating a vision for ourselves that lets us appreciate living. Let's go out. Let's actually go out as a family and go eat out once a week. Fine. We'll find a way to do it within our numbers. But that's important to us. And trust me, when you go out to eat on Saturday with the whole family, you are going to really appreciate it. That's actually the best part of the whole thing. How do you feel? Do you feel confident that you could change the way you relate to money together?

[Grace]

I think we can change the way we're going at it. I think we were going at it from a survival point of view. And. And now that we are at this place, even though we're at a very sort of precarious place, but we both have jobs that we can go back to. We both can build it back up in no time, really, once I'm back doing overtime, that can go into fun stuff and go into the extra savings. And you get bonuses as well. So that's extra money that we can do. So we're actually fine. And I think I just need to sit in it and enjoy the fact that we've sort of almost made it. Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

No, you have made it. You have made it. You made it out of a cancer diagnosis. You made it. You still have money in savings, in investing. If anything, when I look at it, I feel gratitude. I feel gratitude towards your employers. I feel gratitude towards the government.

[Grace]

Universal health.

[Ramit Sethi]

Exactly. I feel gratitude towards that insurance payout.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That you had the vision to, to choose to get that. A lot of gratitude. And what you said was so beautiful. Going from survival to the next chapter. What word? What's the theme of the next chapter of your life as it relates to money? James, what would you say?

[James]

Enjoyment.

[Ramit Sethi]

Enjoyment. I love that. And what about you, Grace?

[Grace]

I'd love to thrive.

[Ramit Sethi]

Thrive.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

These are very positive forward looking words.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like nobody look at, look at my body language. Nobody thrives like this. Worried about how much nobody thrives like that. Right. They thrive standing up straight, sitting up straight, leaning forward and saying, what is it we're going to do in this chapter of our life? We are so grateful we're here.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're going to thrive.

[Grace]

And I really want to enjoy, enjoy our kids and, and see them grow. And gosh, they're just incredible.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, I can see when, when the two of you are talking right now, I can almost see this, the family stories being created. I can see them like a spider web. They're almost unraveling in front of me. It's the story, when we first started talking today of dad was sick and it was hard and he got better. And we're happy. It's nice, it's a nice story. But this story is so much more detailed. It's the difficulty we had to go through. It's the fact that we didn't know what was going to happen. We had to stop working. Dad kept trying to work because he thought he would get bored. But actually maybe he was scared of just coming home. Who will I be if I'm not working? Mom over here going to the farmer's market canning tomatoes because she was afraid. Afraid of who she would be if she couldn't feed her family. And we were so grateful. We had the help of our employers and our friends and our family. And once we got that final check from the doctors, we celebrate it. How did we do it? We sat at home, we watched tv, we cried, we hugged, we did it all.

[Grace]

We went to Legoland.

[Ramit Sethi]

There you go. Amazing. Yeah, exactly. These are the Stories that your kids remember, but secretly, they're actually not for your kids. They're for you. Grace, before we wrap up, you mentioned that it'll be 2:00am, 3:00am and you find yourself purchasing something off of Instagram.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Can you tell me what you might do to change that? Not out of judgment. I'm not judging you for it. But now it seems to me you have a powerful vision that is perhaps more powerful than whatever item is offered on Instagram.

[James]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What tools could you use to change the way that you relate to spending?

[Grace]

I think I need to take my cards out of the back of my phone.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great. I love that. Very simple, but very powerful.

[Grace]

And disconnect the Apple Pay from my phone as well.

[Ramit Sethi]

You want to do it right now?

[Grace]

I do. Okay.

[Ramit Sethi]

I do.

[Grace]

I do. I do. I want to do that right now. I'll leave there. So these are.

[Ramit Sethi]

She took the credit cards out of the back of her phone.

[Grace]

I just have my driving license in there now.

[Ramit Sethi]

Okay. Okay, great.

[Grace]

That's gone.

[Ramit Sethi]

How does it feel to remove them?

[Grace]

I feel like it's going to be hard to do the normal things that I'm doing, but maybe that needs to happen.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's good. Important things are always hard.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

Goodbye, James. What's it like for you watching this?

[James]

I thought this would happen.

[Grace]

They're gone.

[Ramit Sethi]

They're gone. All the cards are gone. I see that. She held it up to the screen. Well done.

[James]

Let's.

[Ramit Sethi]

Let's do a round of applause because that's very impressive. Well done, Grace. Many of us find it silly to have to do something like this. You know, like, oh, I have to remove cards from myself. Like, I'm a grown adult. I should be able to control myself. But actually, once we accept that human nature is very responsive to even the smallest of barriers, then we learn how to deploy those barriers on purpose.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

As an example, in the US in California a few years ago, they started charging, like, 5 cents for bags for, you know, grocery bags. The amount of grocery bag consumption went down dramatically, like, huge. Just for a nickel. Using these barriers in our own life is incredibly powerful to, for example, make it a little harder to spend on things that you do not want to actually spend on. Very effective. And how about for the two of you? One thing that I heard is this feeling of guilt, this feeling of being behind with your money. What's a way that the two of you can change that relationship with money. Money.

[Grace]

I think having our meetings again.

[James]

Yeah. Definitely not hiding anything. You know, if you come home and there's a McDonald's cup in the thing. You'd be like, yeah, I. Kids were tough. I needed something on the way home. Fine.

[Ramit Sethi]

I love that, you know, honesty, always. I love that. There nothing wrong with getting McDonald's once in a while. There is nothing wrong with it. It's totally fine. There's no need for shame. In fact, you can actually build it into your plan.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's the way to do it. Hey, once a month, maybe twice a month. I'm going to set some money aside from McDonald's. Fine. You can certainly afford it. I want you to live a full, rich life. And that involves eating out once in a while.

[Grace]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Getting something for the kids. Yes. And building up a sizable savings, just in case. Also, yes. You can actually do all of those things with planning.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What surprised you about today's conversation?

[Grace]

I think that that control aspect, that surprised me that I thought I was going to be just a really mean woman making my sick husband work. How dare I? But actually, it was. It was really emotional. I just. I really appreciate that you saw me. You saw what was going on, and I didn't.

[Ramit Sethi]

You know, Grace, I saw a different story than you saw in your application. There were multiple references to making your husband work. Fifteen minutes into talking, I didn't see any evidence of that. If anything, James himself said, what else would I have done but work? And so sometimes the way we see ourselves is not the way that others see us. And it is so rare that we get the chance to see ourselves reflected through somebody else and maybe for someone to give us honest feedback.

[Grace]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

And I think you were very open to it. I say all this because it really shows you the power of how you can craft your own story. Your story was that I'm a bad wife forcing my husband to work while he has cancer. That's not the story I heard. Meaning you have the power to shape your own story.

[Grace]

Okay. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

James, what about you?

[James]

I'm surprised how easy it is to talk about it. My expectations for this is that, you know, it would be that we would beat around the bush and not be honest about it, or we would hide things. Things. But then once we kind of got into it, the idea of hiding and not being honest about it, it's just ridiculous. Like, how are we even. How are we ever going to get better if we. If we don't talk about it, if we're not honest about it, honest with ourselves? And I think maybe that's something that we have been kind of holding back on. We. And it's purely because we just don't want to hurt the other one or don't want to burden the other person. But in some ways, we've actually come making it worse because we haven't been in you talking about it so openly. And so I'm just surprised how good it feels and how easy it is to actually talk about money so openly. And even the stuff around money and how it affects us all.

[Ramit Sethi]

Amazing. I appreciate you for really showing up and being so open, being so honest.

[James]

I feel hopeful.

[Ramit Sethi]

Great grace.

[Grace]

I feel a huge sense of relief.

[Ramit Sethi]

Amazing. And I really commend you for what you've been through, but how you have done it, especially tough things like this illness can really cause fractures in relationships. Not only did I not see any of that, I actually see the way that the two of you showed up for each other. It's very, very impressive. And what an example you set for the many people that will watch this.

[Grace]

Well, we're very lucky. We're so lucky that we have so much supports. Like, you know, the financial cost of a cancer diagnosis in the States is a totally different story. Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

What are the stories that you tell yourself? We all do it. We tell ourselves stories. In fact, we tell them so often that they start to feel like facts. I'm just not good with money. I need a big house to be successful. People like me don't wear things like that. You know, I once remember I was reading a financial forum and people were talking about, when you have x million dollars, what are you going to do with the money? And there were hundreds of posts in this thread, and I read them all. And I have to tell you, after reading them, the feeling that I got was disappointment. Almost every single respondent in that thread said the same thing. I would get a house. I would renovate my house. I might get a car. I was thinking, these are people from all over the country, all over the world. We're not talking about having $10,000 or $25,000. I'm talking about millions of dollars. And everyone's answer, like something like 85% of the answers are all exactly the same. You independently decided that you just want a house. That's it. And I thought to myself, where is the creativity? Not one person said, you know what? I've always wanted to learn how to dance. I'm going to hire a dance instructor to come to my house and teach me how to dance. Not one person said, I've always wanted to learn how to act. I'm going to go to an acting class and I'm going to get really good at acting. Not one person talked about hiring a chef to come and teach them how to cook. It was just a house. It was literally inanimate objects that they wanted. I don't find this cool. I think that each of us is different. I think that each of us has something that we would love to do. But a lot of times we don't think people like us do it. I think that we think that's for rich people. I think that we tell ourselves all kinds of stories. And I've told myself stories too. That I'm just a skinny Indian guy, that I can't express my emotions, that experiences are better than things. And for a long time I believed them. I never even thought to question them. Most of us never stop to ask, wait a second, is this even true? Like, some of you believe you don't even like to eat lamb, but you never had Indian keema. You believe you don't like opera, but you've never seen an opera that you understood or one that connected with you. So that's what I want you to think about today. What is your story? What is your story? The story you've been telling yourself about health, about money, about relationships, about where you live, about anything. Take a second, think about those stories, write them down and interrogate them. Why do I believe this? Is it true? Who told me that? Keep going. Ask. Why? Ask again. Sometimes you'll get to the end of that chain and realize, I don't even believe this. I just picked it up somewhere and I never put it down. And on that note, let's now hear follow ups from Grace and Jane.

[Grace]

Hi, Ramesh, Just a little update. It's been about two, three weeks and we've just got back from an amazing holiday in the forest up in Longford. And it was so much fun. We had a budget and we hadn't spent it all by the last day, so we just kind of went wild on the last day. It was lovely actually to like just have that guilt free spending and just be like, no, no, this is the money set aside for it. So that was really nice. We are also, James is taking the lead on the money meetings, which I'm really enjoying because it doesn't just fault me, which is nice. And also it allows me a little bit more space in my brain, which is lovely. We haven't really started the big savings. Well, we're not. Nothing's coming in, so. But we are kind of reducing down the silly spends. I'm finding it hard so I need to realign now after the holiday and have a little plan in mind for what I actually want to spend my money on. But yeah, I think we have a meeting tomorrow now and we're just going to kind of lay out whatever is ahead of us. We're already planning next year's holiday which is really exciting because we haven't gone on any sort of holiday in about three years. Well, apart from, you know, we've just. That that's been our first one. So, yeah, it's all, it's all looking positive and I can't tell you how much better I'm feeling. So I hope James is feeling better as well. I think he is. He's tired after the holiday but. So, yeah, thanks so much.

[James]

Positive changes, very positive changes. I feel from it a big thing, obviously getting back involved with the finances again. So after the show, after the interview, we did a. We did have a kind of catch up. Grace showed me her, went through, going through the spreadsheets that we've kind of been looking at. We set out some kind of big goals. Main one being to get our. We've tried. We figured out how much of our savings would have to use over the next three months while we're both on no pay and low pay. And then we kind of tried to figure out how much we would need to where our savings would go next year to kind of build that back up, that emergency fund back up. So we've got, we've got our first kind of catch up tomorrow and then we'll meet once a week briefly just to. Because we'll map out the month before and then we'll meet a week and see you if something crops up. Another party we've got to go to or we've got to go somewhere extra that might need a bit more fuel. Whatever it is. I found being involved in the money more the ability to kind of call Grace up on some of her spending. I'm loving that she's being a lot more open with me now about it because she knows some of it is ridiculous. Like she even says, she comes at me with how ridiculous it is and you know, and I have to because I think before I'd be like, you know, she was entrapped in the money. She thought it was a good idea then, great, go for it, you know, and that is kind of. I think that's helped a lot and being more involved in money has helped me a lot as well. I feel a lot more secure in us as a family and as our finances I'm a lot less worried. I feel like I'm getting a lot less worried about money. It's still there, obviously, but kind of seeing it all, being more involved in it again is helping a lot with the kind of anxiety that I was feeling about it. You know, we probably won't go completely bankrupt if I get sick again, you know, small things like that. And, you know, I'm trying to. Similar to Grace, I'm getting more. Trying to be more involved with. Stop worrying about it and be more involved with the family. Like trying to not spend money on things for the kids, but more in stuff together as a family. Not just, you know, toys that they can play with. And I'll end up throwing away or giving away or something. Trying to create more memories and more. More things together as a family. You know, we've been through a lot, A lot, a lot. And, you know, we're coming out the other side of it. It's time to enjoy it a little bit, you know, so, yeah, so that's where I'm at. You know, it's early days yet, but if we can stick with it, I think we'll be on a much better course moving forward. So. Thank you again for. Sometimes you just need someone else to kind of listen in and. Because I think deep down we knew a lot of it. Sometimes you just need someone else to kind of point out, someone from the outside just to be like, yeah, you know, you're not crazy, you know. So thanks again. Who knows? Maybe we'll see each other again soon.