247. "We’re in our 40s — with nothing saved"

Summary

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Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi

Episode 247: "We’re in our 40s — with nothing saved"
Date: February 10, 2026
Host: Ramit Sethi
Guests: Stephanie and Chris

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Episode Overview

In this powerful episode, Ramit Sethi sits down with Stephanie and Chris, a married couple in their early 40s living in Canada with three young children (two with special needs). Despite high household earnings, they are struggling financially—no savings, mounting debt, and barely any investments. Ramit guides them through a raw, honest conversation about money habits, communication breakdowns, gender roles, and the psychology that’s keeping them financially stuck. If you’ve ever felt paralyzed or overwhelmed in partnership around money, this episode offers an unfiltered look at what it takes to tackle not just numbers, but the beliefs and dynamics that fuel the problem.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Financial Snapshot and the Stress of Inaction

• Current Situation:

  • Assets: $555,000 (mostly house and cars)
  • Investments: $228,500 (old retirement accounts, kids' savings)
  • Savings: $1,662
  • Debt: $544,000 (mortgage, credit cards, line of credit, $50K to family)
  • Net Worth: $241,000
  • Combined Gross Income: $155,000/year (~$12,960/month)
  • Fixed Costs: 92% of income (should be <60%)
  • Quote:

    "That right there tells me a lot. Tells me they're broke… spending more than they make."
    — Ramit Sethi (02:55)

• No Margin for Error: If they lost their income, they’d last less than a week (25:20).

2. Dysfunctional Communication and Gender Roles

• Stephanie’s Role: Bookkeeping, brings up savings/investment worries, feels dismissed without action.

• Chris’s Role: Main earner, reassures "it’ll all work out," shuts down ideas in the moment ("the dream crusher").

• Pattern: Conversations repeat with no progress; Stephanie brings concerns, Chris avoids or vetoes, both retreat.

• Memorable Dialogue:

  “I just say, whatever, fine, forget it... and go about my business and be mad about it.”
  — Stephanie (07:58)
  “The moment… what she wants is when she brings up the idea, in the moment, 'yeah, that’s a good idea.' But it’s already been poisoned.”
  — Chris (10:52)

• Gender Analysis:
  Ramit labels Chris’s behavior as the "ignorant reassurer"—unaware of family finances, defaulting to emotional reassurance rather than action.

  “The ignorant reassurer, by the way, is always a man… Do you see how gender and culture influence money before a single dollar gets spent?”
  — Ramit Sethi (28:54)

3. Money Decisions Made on Feelings, Not Facts

• They rarely run numbers before spending (swim lessons, groceries, dining out).

• Example: $3,000 spent on private swimming lessons for the kids with little planning; later, sticker shock sets in (17:46).

• Observation:

  “You make them without much planning.”
  — Stephanie (18:12)

• High, unplanned grocery spending: $2,000/month with lots of waste and no meal planning (36:23)

4. Emotion Under the Surface—Guilt, Fear, Shame

• Stephanie feels deep guilt and fear, crying when realizing how little savings they have:

  “Feel guilty, feel stupid. They just… deserve better. I’m just… I’m mad at myself.”
  — Stephanie (25:37)

• Chris recognizes he’s emotionally absent at home, stuck in “provider” mode, and confesses:

  “My work comes home with me… my life without that joy, without that excitement.”
  — Chris (43:42)

5. Learned Behaviors and Money Scripts

• Stephanie: Grew up with feast/famine money mentality; money decisions were vague ("we have it/we don’t"), no investing knowledge (47:11–49:20).
• Chris: Saved due to his father’s orders, but rebelled and spent once independent. Admits he inherited poor listening habits (50:43–52:15).

6. The True Cost of Inaction

• Chris admits he always “kicked decisions down the line” (US investments, moving, buying a house)—costing the family potentially hundreds of thousands long-term (57:29).
• Calculation: If they’d invested conservatively in the US, they’d have $100K+ now, $1M+ in retirement (57:29–58:14).

7. Path to Change: Communication, Planning, Decisions

• Ramit helps them see:

  • Both use each other as excuses for inaction.
  • They lack a framework for solution-focused conversations.
  • Must stop "dancing around" decisions and get direct.

• Breakthrough Moments:

  • Chris and Stephanie admit how their roles, communication, and avoidance have been self-defeating.
  • Ramit connects the lack of financial planning to lack of shared vision and weak relationship partnership.

    “Neither one are particularly helpful because we're not working with each other.”
    — Stephanie (54:37)

  • Chris on supporting Stephanie:

    “How can I support you better...?”
    (77:13)

    • Stephanie: “By communicating with me, finding a vision and a direction that helps me understand why I'm making this [sacrifice], why it’s worth it.”

8. Solutions and Action Steps (Money Plan in Real Time)

(1:19:21–1:22:37) Ramit guides the couple through their conscious spending plan:

• Groceries: From $2,000 → $1,200/month (36:20, 79:27)
• Subscriptions: From $295 → $88/month (79:46, follow-up)
• Children’s activities/swim lessons: Canceled, refund issued (80:49–81:07, follow-up)
• Eating Out: Limited to 2x/month, deleted apps (follow-up)
• Debt Repayment: Higher payments to pay off credit card debt in 2 years (~$500/month) (84:13)
• Emergency Fund: Building up 6 months’ expenses ($1,250+/month earmarked)
• Income: Stephanie pursuing a higher paying full-time job, exploring non-nursing positions. Chris’ university salary will grow yearly.
• Weekly Money Dates: Committed to structured, regular check-ins.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Pain of Inertia:

  “You have to admit, and really take a hard look in the mirror… It has nothing to do with the circumstances around us. These are just habits. You can change that.”
  — Ramit Sethi (59:04)

• On Gendered Scripts:

  “My wife is emotional. Emotions are bad… My job is to be a provider and to calm her down. So I’ll tell her it’s going to be okay.”
  — Ramit Sethi (45:12)

• On Redirecting the Conversation:

  “You can't fix your money until this gets fixed. We could fix your CSP no problem. But two days from now, you're going to have exactly the same conversation… You’re going to regress.”
  — Money Coach / Interviewer (42:16)

• On Partnership:

  “You are standing side by side, even when the numbers are scary, and you’re saying: we’re going to figure this out together. People can do really hard things when they know they’re not alone.”
  — Ramit Sethi (78:17)

• Breakthrough:

  “I feel relief that we have a plan and a direction, and that we’re both on the same page with it.”
  — Stephanie (93:00)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Time | Segment | |----------|-------------------------------------------| | 00:49 | Introduction to Stephanie & Chris | | 02:53 | Financial snapshot: assets, net worth | | 06:00 | Why their money talks go nowhere | | 17:30 | Swim lessons: spending without planning | | 25:37 | Stephanie’s guilt over money — emotional turn| | 28:53 | Gender roles – "ignorant reassurer" | | 34:45 | Guilt-free spending: not so guilt-free | | 36:20 | Grocery overspending | | 41:10 | Communication breakdown/interruptions | | 54:32 | Self-reflection on money roles | | 57:29 | The cost of not investing (calculations) | | 79:21 | Making a new spending plan (live CSP edit)| | 84:13 | Debts, sacrifices, future income | | 90:33 | Emergency fund vs. debt payoff | | 91:26 | Lessons learned: Not just about numbers | | 93:00 | Relief, direction, same page | | 94:53 | Follow-up messages from the couple |

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Follow-Ups & Concrete Changes (Post-Session)

Stephanie:

• Money dates weekly (“way less fraught than they used to be”).
• Canceled private swim lessons, refunded.
• Subscriptions cut by 75% ($88/month).
• Groceries down to $1,200/month and takeout restricted.
• Paid off lowest credit card ($2,000), stopped using credit.
• Applying for higher-paying or new non-nursing jobs.

“Everything is heading in a much more positive direction now that we have a vision and a plan together.” (96:50)

Chris:

• Noticed “huge new positivity.”
• Subscriptions moved to work budget or cut.
• Music therapy for kids reintroduced (affordable and enjoyed).
• Actively seeking therapy for himself; investigating couples therapy.

"Basically no more eggshells … we have to sort of say what we mean... that's the goal." (97:28)

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Takeaways

1. Money Problems Are Rarely Just About Money

Unspoken roles, lack of communication, and inherited scripts fuel inertia.

2. Ownership Enables Change

Breakthroughs come when each partner owns their contributions to the problem—in their words, “using each other as the excuse for inaction.”

3. Directness, Not Perfection

Powerful change starts with saying what you want and confronting the truth: “I want someone to say we can’t afford this, but I’m not saying it.” (81:18)

4. Process, Not Just Numbers

A process (regular check-ins, actual planning, setting targets) is more transformative than budgeting one time.

5. Partnership Is Built in Tough Moments

Support is not about fixing, but presence and alignment toward a shared vision.

6. A Plan Brings Relief

Even difficult sacrifices are tolerable—if you know why you’re making them and see a path forward.

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Final Thoughts

This episode sharply illustrates that financial instability among high earners often has little to do with math—and everything to do with avoidance, scripts, and unexamined dynamics. Ramit’s coaching is both tough and empathetic, showing that the way out is through honesty, directness, and real partnership—first with each other, and then with their money.

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For more:

• Find tools and resources at iwt.com/moneycoaching.
• “Money for Couples” book available for action steps and frameworks discussed.

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Transcript

[Ramit Sethi]

If you are in a relationship where you or your partner cover up spending to avoid big fights or you get stressed out spending $150 on dinner, even though you can easily afford it if you lay awake at night anxious about money, I want to talk to you. I'm currently casting couples for the next season of the Money for Couples podcast. We only do this a few times.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

A year and I want to hear from you.

[Ramit Sethi]

You can apply today at iwt.com/apply. Being on the podcast is basically a three or four hour coaching session with me. Tons of past couples who have appeared on the podcast have said it is a pivotal moment for them to get on the same page. So if you want my take on your unique financial situation, this is your chance. Apply right [e-mail] apply if we have an emergency.

[Stephanie]

I don't know where we're going to pull money for that from. We have three young kids to a special needs.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What's the closest you've got to a true financial emergency?

[Chris]

Now we need to get out of this hole and get our plan together and make some sacrifices. That's the key thing that's been missing.

[Stephanie]

I feel like we're just kind of floundering and not going anywhere. We're treading water, but not even anymore.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

The dynamics between the two of you have cost you tens of thousands of dollars. If you stopped earning money, do you know how long you would last?

[Stephanie]

We wouldn't.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You'd last less than a week. Also accept that you're going to pay thousands in interest. That's why you're stressed. That's it. That's the ball game.

[Stephanie]

You're broke. Feel guilty, Feel stupid. I'm mad at myself.

[Ramit Sethi]

Today I'm speaking with Stephanie and Chris. They're in their early 40s, married. They have three young children, including two with special needs. They recently bought their forever home in Canada where Chris is a professor on the tenure track and their finances can be described as an avalanche of inaction. Stephanie says they have no investments and barely any savings. She manages their bookkeeping, yet she feels ignored when she pushes for change. Chris says it'll all work out. So every conversation they have quietly goes nowhere. It's become two people just walking on financial eggshells around each other. If you feel like your talks about money never actually result in anything changing, then this episode is for you. I'm about to open up their conscious spending plan which breaks down their net worth income and where they spend their money. If you want my help navigating your own Conscious spending plan. Join my money coaching [e-mail] moneycoaching Here's a snapshot of where they stand. Total assets 555,000 investments 228,000 savings just $1,662. Debt 544,000, which gives them a total net worth of $241,000. Now look at this. Their fixed costs are at 92%. That right there tells me a lot.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Tells me they're broke, tells me they're.

[Ramit Sethi]

Spending more than they make. And this number, which should usually be below 60%, automatically tells me that they are stressed and overwhelmed with their finances and their investments and Savings are at 0 and 1%. With their fixed costs eating up just about every dollar in sight, I'm not surprised that they have been ignoring it. Imagine having 92% of your money accounted for the moment it hits your bank account. It's incredibly scary. What do you do in a situation like this? We'll get into exactly that with Stephanie and Chris.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Stephanie, you said something in your application that really caught my eye and I'd like to read from it. You said, I take care of our finances and feel dismissed. When I bring up investing, saving and planning for the future. He feels like it will all work out.

[Ramit Sethi]

I get overwhelmed.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I'm not confident talking about money, so I drop it and continue to worry. Do you remember writing that?

[Stephanie]

I do.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

When Chris says it will all work out, how does it feel to you?

[Stephanie]

Like I said, it feels a little bit dismissive. I know he doesn't want me to worry. I know he wants the best for me, and I think he thinks maybe that will not placate because that kind of has connotations to it, but kind of will reassure me in a way that it doesn't. So it's very frustrating. And I still kind of feel like I'm floundering with things as a result.

[Chris]

I know she does worry and that it bothers her. So as that husband, I just don't. I don't want her to be stressed.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Would it surprise you to hear that I don't mind if my wife is stressed sometimes?

[Chris]

No, it doesn't really surprise me. I guess, like, some stress is obviously good.

[Stephanie]

You're a fixer. And I think he wants to fix whatever is going on with me because, I mean, I know he loves me, obviously, so I think it kind of stresses him out when I'm stressed out because he's feeling bad about it. So I think. I think that's what. Sorry if I'm Stepping on your toes here, but I think, I think that's what it is.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You agree, Chris? Yeah.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Stephanie]

Okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right. How often do the two of you.

[Stephanie]

Actually talk about money in a meaningful way? I'm not sure we do. I think we have the same conversation over and over.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What's that conversation go like?

[Stephanie]

The credit cards are creeping up. We need to get on a budget. Where can we cut back? And I am worrying about retirement and the future, and he wants to deal with our debt in the present. Now I shut down, rinse and repeat.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Wow, that sounds fun. Love the joy.

[Stephanie]

It's awesome.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, okay. Like, I was like counting 1, 2. All these sound horrible. Keep going. Not a good single thing in sight. Okay. You ever have a positive conversation about money? I'll take the deafening silence as a no.

[Chris]

I mean, from my perspective, the every six months we potentially like bring up a budget and try to talk this out. It usually we do it at night and as soon as there's a disagreement, it just kind of falls apart.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Can you think of a time in the last three, six months where you were not on the same page with money?

[Chris]

Well, we moved to a bigger house in November and there are cheap DIY stuff that Stephanie would like to get done. However, knowing the debt we have, I've been, you know, even if there are hundred, $200 things to do, I've been a little bit like, well, we have to handle this debt. And it's, it's caused some friction.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Let's go back to one of those conversations. Can we just. Can you actually have the conversation in.

[Chris]

Front of me, Stephanie? I don't think that I realize the kitchen sink is a wobbly and it's an annoyance and, you know, but it's still functional at the moment right now. Can we not replace it at the moment? Because we'll have to replace the sink, the countertop, et cetera. And I think it's something we can just deal with for the next year or two before we get, get our stuff together.

[Stephanie]

Well, I'm frustrated because I'm often using it and we always have to end up MacG it every couple of weeks because the faucet isn't stable. And it's drives me nuts and it's frustrating being in this house with this problem that we could just knock out pretty quickly, I think, for not that much money. So I don't see why for our quality of day to day life, we can't just address it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, pause. Great. And then how does it end?

[Stephanie]

I tend to shut down and in arguments. So I just say, whatever, fine, forget it. And kind of just walk away and go about my business and be mad about it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Is this thing fixed now or not?

[Stephanie]

It's not.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I noticed that money did not get brought up specifically in that conversation.

[Stephanie]

You're right.

[Chris]

Like, if you.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

If you were to analyze that conversation as almost like a disinterested scientific observer, what would you notice about what happened?

[Stephanie]

It's more about, I guess not, I guess, quality of life versus dollars. Because if it really was about dollars, I would have the research set and say, okay, well, it's going to cost X amount of money to replace the sink and the countertop if it needs to be done and we have X amount of money laying around or not to do it.

[Chris]

Okay, Chris, I think regardless of whether it costs money, when Stephanie says, I want to do X, my gut is usually, okay, let's talk about the reasons why we can't do X. And I'm probably guilty of that.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, wow. So, Stephanie, you're saying you. You don't talk about the financial side of it because if the financial side were core to it, you would come prepared to discuss numbers. And Chris, you are saying your natural reaction is to basically shut down what Stephanie wants to do without looking at numbers. So I have a question about this. You mentioned you didn't get the sync. Do most of your conversations end up with you not spending? Because if so, what's the problem?

[Chris]

So the only pushback, you know, we do talk about the costs and even to the point about this sync issue that we cashed in some, like, air mile type points for a home, a Home Depot gift card of 950 bucks. So we technically have the funds. We can do it. But there's the downstream thoughts I have is, well, we want to do a big catch in renault in about five, 10 to 10 years. Why? Why do something now if we're going to do something in five, 10 years? But I do get that this is important for Stephanie. And the problem is, is I already have poisoned the well and she'll walk away and I will come to her and be like, okay, yeah, just like, let's do it, let's get it done kind of thing. But it's already been poisoned and she's already kind of angry and, you know, in. In her shell. So, like, nothing ends up happening. It's not like Stephanie says, like, okay, like, let's do this. I've kind of already ruin the moment, I guess.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Ruin the moment. That's an interesting turn of phrase. The moment. What is the moment?

[Chris]

I think the moment, what she wants is when she brings up. The idea is in the moment. Yeah, that's, that's a good idea. We could do that. Let's, let's figure out how to do this like, and get this done the way Stephanie.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Is that accurate?

[Stephanie]

It is. Can be a bit of a buzz kill.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, so he's, you describe him as a buzzkill today. What would you like him to be?

[Stephanie]

Just a little bit more excited. Especially if he sees I'm excited. Even if he knows, like, oh, this is, this is not going to work. Like, just the initial, like, shutdown is. It just feels so deflating sometimes.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you picking up on the contradiction here? Chris says it's going to be okay, but then the moment Stephanie asks for something like to fix a faucet or to improve their day to day life, the answer is no. So which is it? If it's going to be okay, why does every request get shut down? I think the message that she's likely hearing is it's going to be okay as long as you don't ask for anything. And this is a pattern I see all the time. In fact, a lot of men fall into it without even realizing it. They start seeing their wife's role in as she wants this, she wants that. When is it ever going to end? It's never enough. And in this dynamic, they cast themselves as the reasonable one, the protector, the adult in the room. Has anyone ever heard this dynamic? I know you have. For the person on the receiving end of this dynamic, it's incredibly frustrating. Every suggestion gets dismissed, every request denied. There's rarely an explanation, but when there is, it's just an opinion. No numbers, no facts. Just one person's entrenched opinion against another. And that's hard to argue with. Once that dynamic sets in, it creates a lot of tension. That tension is difficult to dislodge. It's kind of like gluing two pieces of paper together. You can separate them, but it's hard. And the more time that glue has been together, the harder it is to take them apart. Each person in their own corner of the ring. It's almost like these magnets are repelling each other when if you just flip them, they would actually be attracted to each other. It's a lot of opinions, a lot of feelings. I like feelings sometimes, but sometimes I like some freaking numbers. How about you? There's no partnership in this dynamic because everyone is too busy negotiating about their random opinions. But what you notice is there's actually nothing shared that they can work together on. It's Stephanie versus Chris, when it should be. Stephanie and Chris create our rich life vision together. If I had to bet, I would guess that this dynamic shows up in more than just the kitchen sink.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So let's keep going.

[Ramit Sethi]

We once had a salary negotiation program at I Will Teach youh to Be Rich and it did not do very well and we were trying to figure out why. So we did a bunch of interviews from people who didn't buy. I learned that of course Americans hate negotiating. I knew that. But if there's one thing we hate more than negotiating, it is planning to negotiate in the future.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But I have to tell you something.

[Ramit Sethi]

Top performers actually love this. They love being proactive. They love having a plan for what can go right and what can go wrong.

[Chris]

And.

[Ramit Sethi]

And that's exactly what life insurance is all about. That's why I recommend getting term life insurance from Fabric by Gerber Life to protect your family. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. It's made for busy parents like you. It's all online on your schedule, right from your couch. You could be covered in under 10 minutes with no health exam required. If you've got kids, especially if you're young and healthy, now is the best.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Time to lock in rates.

[Ramit Sethi]

And even if you have life insurance through your employer, it may not be enough to protect your family, especially if you leave your job or get let go. Join the thousands of parents who trust fabric to help protect their family. You can apply today in just minutes at meet fabric.com/ramit M E T fabric.com/ramit Policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states. Prices subject to underwriting and health questions Entrepreneurs let's talk about systems. This is the year you can give yourself the gift of sorting out your business systems. Tons of small businesses are held together by duct tape and 15 different platforms and tiers. But it does not have to be this way. You can simplify your business systems, save time, and streamline your workflows in 2026 with NetSuite. NetSuite is the number one AI cloud ERP. It's trusted by over 43,000 businesses. It simplifies your business into a single platform. That's your financials, inventory, commerce, HR and CRM all in one place. Plus, it uses an AI built system to automate your routines, deliver actionable insights, and help you cut costs with confidence. Whether your company earns millions or even Hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you innovate and improve. If I'd had a system like this back when I was building iwt, it would have changed everything. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our free business guide demystifying [e-mail] Ramit that's netsuite.com Ramit.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You have three kids, is that correct?

[Stephanie]

That's right.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, how old are the kids?

[Stephanie]

Six, four and almost 21 months.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, great. Was there something about spending money on the kids? Something about swim lessons?

[Stephanie]

Sure was.

[Ramit Sethi]

Tell me.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Tell me a little bit about that. Take me to the beginning of that.

[Stephanie]

So we've been wanting to put them in in swim for a long time. So I looked into private lessons, got the two oldest into private. So the two of them with one instructor and then the little guy just in, you know, your aqua baby swim classes. But because they're private lessons for the whole year, September to next April, it's just under three grand. I told him what the cost was going to be beforehand. We discussed it. I went ahead and registered them, and they do offer that you can do installments, so it's not three grand upfront. We can break it down over the next few months. But he was, like, shocked, like he'd never heard the price before. And I was just like, well, I don't know what to tell you.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Is that what you said? I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, okay.

[Stephanie]

Yeah, it is because. Because I told them. I did tell him. We discussed it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right, let me check with Chris here. So, Chris, do you remember discussing the $3,000 originally?

[Chris]

Yes. Okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And then when the payments started, you.

[Chris]

Were surprised when the invoice came. There was a bit of sticker shock. I totally agree that swimming is important. It's an important life skill. But I'm just afraid, like, at this moment in time, maybe a year later from now, that it's really tight as far as fixed costs go.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. What do you think that this swimming bill reveals about the way that the two of you make financial decisions?

[Stephanie]

We make them without much planning.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah, I agree. What else?

[Chris]

I feel we don't think about our fixed costs. We just. We agree that, oh, yeah, swimming is important. Let's do this. And I do agree it's important, but we don't look at the numbers. We don't run the numbers.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So it's like, is the sink important? Is swimming important? These things are. Are they important? Yes. But when you talk about them, there are very few numbers involved. It's strong Feelings, even feelings about family or convenience. But you don't have the added lens or layer of money.

[Stephanie]

Yeah, you're right.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You know, that's a lot. How a lot of people make decisions. They buy a car. They just go, we need a car. They buy a house. They don't run a single number. They go buy a mattress. They go to dinner, vacation. They don't talk about it, but it's.

[Ramit Sethi]

They feel very strongly we work hard.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

We deserve to take a vacation.

[Chris]

Wow.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

A lot of nods happening.

[Stephanie]

Guilty.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Both feel that way.

[Stephanie]

We're guilty of most of those things for sure.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How do you think it affects your money?

[Chris]

The actual numbers, they're much lower than we thought they would be each month because you lose when you don't think about it actively, you kind of can lose track of the spending. And then you wonder at each month when it's time to put some more money onto the debt or something. Where did it all go?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You spent it. Yeah. What is that look like day to day?

[Stephanie]

Well, day to day, there's the stress of if we have an emergency, like with a house or otherwise, I don't know where we're going to pull money for that from because we don't have an emergency fund. We don't have much savings at all.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Stephanie]

So I think we'd be in big trouble. And we have three young kids, two with special needs.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Hmm. That's serious. What's the closest you've got to a true financial emergency?

[Stephanie]

Probably pretty close now.

[Chris]

Quite honestly, this, I would say, is the closest we've been.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I'd like to take a look at the numbers. I think it's going to help me understand a little bit more. Can we have Stephanie read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

[Stephanie]

Okay. Assets, $555,000. Investments, $228,500. Savings, $1,662. Debt, $544,000. Total net worth, $241,000. 162.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What do you think about those numbers for early 40s?

[Stephanie]

I. I don't think they're great.

[Chris]

Okay, Chris, I agree. They could be a lot higher.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, let me just understand the assets. 555. Zed. House.

[Stephanie]

Yes, house and two vehicles.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool. And the debt, can you break that 544k down for me?

[Chris]

The mortgage is about 460. There is credit card debt at about probably 15k.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Chris]

There is a line of credit that is about 13k and there's about 50k that we owe parents that has no interest and no current payback plan. Really?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Got it. Okay. All right, let's go on to income, please. Chris, can you give me the combined GROSS Monthly income?

[Chris]

12, 9 60.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And that means that combine the two of you make $155,000 per year. What do you both do for a living?

[Stephanie]

I'm a registered nurse.

[Chris]

I'm a professor at a university.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, cool.

[Ramit Sethi]

Who's the one who makes 9,500amonth?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And who makes 3,460amonth?

[Stephanie]

Chris makes 9,500amonth and I make 3,460amonth.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, and how is it possible that you're net is higher than your gross?

[Chris]

You included the child benefit.

[Stephanie]

Oh, that's right. Yes, yes, that's right. We get a child tax benefit from the government monthly. That's about $1,100 or so.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, okay, cool. Let's continue on to look at your fixed costs. What's that number?

[Chris]

92%.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Whoa. So that's it. That's the ball game.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

You're broke. Yeah. Y. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That's why you're stressed. That's why you don't have any money left over. That explains everything right there. Did you know that?

[Stephanie]

I. Well, I didn't know that until we sat down and did the csp. I, I guess I could feel it because we were stressed, but I didn't know that it would be. I knew it would be high, but. 92, I was shocked.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What did you think it was? What did you think the problem was?

[Stephanie]

I guess I didn't really think of it in terms of fixed costs. I just thought like we just weren't paying attention to where. To what we were spending on. Not necessarily that it was fixed costs or it was not frivolous spending, but like just on spending on whatever, on fun or anything else. I just, I don't know. I didn't think of it in terms of fixed costs though.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Most people don't break down their finances into four categories. That's why we have the free conscious spending plan. But in addition, most people actually don't even think about their problems in a solution oriented way. It's more like a, a stew. It's just this vague stew, like floating around in the back of their head like something sucks. That's a lot of couples. And to ask them what is the solution which we haven't even gotten to. A very, very single digit percentage of people think that way.

[Stephanie]

All right.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Fixed costs are 92% investments. Zero. It's a little surprising because you have $228,000 in investments.

[Stephanie]

How.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How did you accumulate that While you have $0 going per month to investments?

[Stephanie]

So most of that was from when we were living and working in the US and that's my 403B and 401A, as well as we have registered disability savings accounts that are invested for our two that have disabilities.

[Chris]

So about 50k of that is my pension that is accrued over the last three years starting my faculty position.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. All right. Your savings are at 1%, and that's $100 a month for gifts. That is reflected in your total savings right now, which is $1,662. It means that if you stopped earning money, do you know how long you would last?

[Stephanie]

We wouldn't.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah, you would last less than a week.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That's it. Game over. And you have three kids. Okay. Everything else, guilt free spending says $636 a month. Hold on. Stephanie, what's going on?

[Chris]

It's okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Take your time. We're in no rush. I want to hear from you.

[Stephanie]

Feel guilty, feel stupid. They just. They deserve better.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Your kids.

[Stephanie]

Absolutely.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Stephanie]

I'm just. I'm mad at myself.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Do you deserve better?

[Stephanie]

Yes, I do. But I don't really know, like, where to start. There's a lot going on for me career wise, in terms of burnout, as I have been burnt out from nursing for years. But I've just found it incredibly hard to pivot into a different direction. And I'm only working part time because that's kind of what I can manage at the moment. But it's not enough. I don't want to keep dreading going to work every day. And it's not the work itself. Like, I. I like helping people. I'm good at what I do. I just. My heart's not in it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

When we talked about your savings and how long you would last, financially speaking, you started crying immediately. What was it about?

[Stephanie]

That it's scary. I'm scared.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Did you know that before now?

[Stephanie]

I did, but not so tangibly black and white.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Here it is. There's no avoiding it anymore. That is scary. I've always thought we should shine a light on the stuff that we tend to avoid. I'd rather know.

[Ramit Sethi]

It is scary.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It doesn't feel good. Sometimes it feels horrible. Sometimes we cry. But ignoring it's not going to make it better. It hasn't worked, has it?

[Ramit Sethi]

No.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So sometimes we got to walk straight through the fire, try to find out what the Solution is notice, Chris, that I am not trying to tell her it's all going to be okay, not trying to get her to stop crying.

[Chris]

There's a voice in my head that obviously, when I saw her cry, that wanted to, you know, comfort her in that way. And there's even a small, logical person in my head saying, like, don't worry, Chris. You know, in a few years, as you keep climbing this ladder, you're gonna get paid enough that she can work part time.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Maybe true, maybe not. Totally irrelevant.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

The thing is that your natural desire to comfort, it's a good goal. You can comfort in ways that don't shut somebody else down. Stephanie, I appreciate you being so candid. Like, money is emotional. Money makes us cry, it makes us angry, makes us jubilant, it makes us all, all kinds of feelings. There's nothing wrong with that. I love to see it, actually. It helps us really connect with the power of money.

[Ramit Sethi]

I am noticing a pattern emerging here with Stephanie and Chris around gender roles.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Are you seeing it?

[Ramit Sethi]

If you were raised in America and you were giving a tour to someone visiting from Japan or India or Kenya, how would you explain gender and money in the us? Like, what if they asked you, who earns more here? Men or women?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Who earn more?

[Ramit Sethi]

Who takes care of the kids? What do men and women spend their money on here? And you started to answer them. And as you start to answer them out loud and you notice their confused reactions, you would notice how much we simply take for granted, even if it doesn't make logical sense, because that's just what we grew up with. That's culture. And I have found that especially in Western culture, there are specific areas of life where gender becomes salient. For example, in parenting, a lot of women bear the responsibility of caregiving for children, while men often focus on providing or the division of chores around the house. We often see women taking on the role of, for example, cleaning, while men are handling things like car maintenance or lawn care. There's very good data corroborating this. And with Stephanie and Chris, we have two relatively high earning, educated people who have fallen into their own version of these archaic gender roles, even when it comes to money. Think about it. Stephanie took a step back from working full time so she could be there for the kids. She manages the day to day bookkeeping for the family. But she has entered into the role, maybe put herself in the role of the convincer when it comes to any decision on spending, like a new sink or swimming lessons for the kids. She's reduced her role with money to be the one that has to ask for permission. And Chris has fallen into the role of what I call the ignorant reassurer. I'm not using that term to be disrespectful or demeaning, but he doesn't have an active role in their day to day finances and he is therefore ignorant of the family money. And then when Stephanie shows any negative emotion about their financial situation, he simply reassures her that it's going to be okay. He's an ignorant reassurer. I see this often with couples. The ignorant reassure, by the way, is always a man. Do you see how gender and culture influence money before a single dollar gets spent? There is an entire dynamic at play here and neither of them actually feels good about it. My hope today is to help them change that. So we're going to get back into the numbers right after this. Here's some recent Rich life wins from our I will teach you to be rich community. One reader made an account for spontaneous spending so he could say yes to things like museum entrance fees or spur of the moment brunches. Another reader took her 75 year old mom to Paris. That was only her second international trip ever. This is what I mean when I say living a rich life. We're talking about intentional, specific decisions that matter to you. You can't live a rich life without a plan. Now you can do this on your own. You can build your plan yourself or if you want extra help getting started. Working with our partners at Facet is another great option. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your portfolio. You get access to a team of CFP professionals. Always a cfp, always a fiduciary who help you create a personalized financial plan for your rich life goals. And they handle important things like investments, retirement planning, starting a family, becoming empty nesters, estate planning.

[Chris]

All of it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Your financial plan needs to adapt as your life changes. Facet makes getting professional financial advice more accessible without charging hidden exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience, Facet is offering three $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. You can head to facet.com ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC Registered Investment Advisor. I'm not a member of FASTT and I have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation. Based on this endorsement, all opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome. I spent over 20 years fine tuning my core message from I will teach you to be rich of living your rich life. Which is why I was so thrilled when masterclass reached out and asked me to teach a class because I've spent so many years helping people define their rich life. My financial wellness class is now available on masterclass where I cover how to automate your finances so so your money works for you in your sleep, how to break free from financial anxiety, and how to create a financial system to live your own true rich life. With Masterclass, you learn from the best to become your best. Plans start at just $10 a month and you get unlimited access to over 200 classes taught by the world's best business leaders, writers, chefs, and now me. Plus, there's no risk. Every new membership comes with a 30 day money back guarantee so you can try it out before you commit. I've used Masterclass myself. I've paid for it on my own and I loved it. And a big part of my rich life is learning from the best. So masterclass makes perfect sense for me and I think it will make a.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Lot of sense for you.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now, our listeners get an additional 15% off any annual [e-mail] Ramit that's 15% [e-mail] Ramit masterclass.com Ramit if you.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Don'T mind, I would love to just finish going down this so I can understand the big picture. Guilt free spending says $636 a month. I don't really believe that. I think you spend more. Yeah. What do you all spend?

[Chris]

Your.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's not guilt free spending because you're both racked with guilt. What do you spend your discretionary money on?

[Chris]

For me, it's. It's mostly coffee, lunch, you know, doordash.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Eating out. What else?

[Stephanie]

I mean, well, since we moved into this house, like things for the house.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I thought that once you buy a house, your mortgage is capped and that's it. It's just like nothing ever increases. At least that's what they tell us in America. You telling me that's not true?

[Stephanie]

It is not true.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right. So when you evaluate your conscious spending plan, you have 92% fixed costs, 0% investments, 1% savings, and 7% guilt free spending, which is almost certainly more than double that. What do you think of your spending?

[Stephanie]

It's not directed.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What do you mean by that?

[Stephanie]

Like, there's no planning behind It. We just kind of take things as they come.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, okay. You know what's interesting is your housing costs are not particularly high. They're a little high, but nothing crazy. They're like 32%. Okay. I would love it to be under 28, but. Okay. However, if we look at your fixed costs and we drill down a bit. Let's just take a look here. Your mortgage, 3489, plus utilities of 700 bucks. You have a car payment of 230 or gas. Childcare at 445, child activities at 312. Debt payments of 400. But what's this number?

[Ramit Sethi]

Groceries.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How much?

[Stephanie]

$2,000 a month.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

One more time.

[Stephanie]

$2,000 a month. I do the grocery shopping, so I can't really put that on. Chris. We don't really meal plan or anything, so I'm just kind of buying things willy nilly. And we do end up with a lot of food waste, but there's just no. Again, no thought, no planning behind it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Where else in your financial life do you not plan ahead?

[Stephanie]

Savings, retirement, investments, Every.

[Chris]

Every. Everywhere else.

[Stephanie]

We're not everywhere.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. Okay. Is there any part of your financial life that you do plan for?

[Stephanie]

I don't think so.

[Chris]

Our mode up until now, especially before the last child, when Stephanie was working full time, we were.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

We were.

[Chris]

Our heads were above water because we just kept enough in the checking account that we didn't have bank fees. And when mortgages and other automatic payments would come out and we felt like we were doing okay because that checking account had, like a decent balance and we had a buffer, but we still didn't plan for the investments, etc.

[Stephanie]

I will say. Sorry to cut you off there, Chris, but when we were. When you were doing your postdoc, I was making very good money where we were. We didn't have children, and we managed to put away a lot of money, but we still didn't plan anything. It was just like, oh, well, we have enough to kind of spend without thinking and still save money and put money away, so this is fine.

[Ramit Sethi]

Are you both lazy with money?

[Stephanie]

Yeah, I think we are.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It just kind of adds up, right? Everything kind of makes sense. You're spending $2,000 a month on groceries because you don't plan for it. Savings are at less than 2000 bucks. I'm not blaming. I'm just saying it actually kind of all makes sense. What do you think about that?

[Stephanie]

You're right.

[Chris]

Yeah, I agree.

[Stephanie]

I think we. We kind of knew this in the back of our. Our Minds. And it's just didn't quite want to face it this. This bluntly.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But then it raises the question, if you thought that was a problem, why not change it before talking to me?

[Chris]

I think when it comes to communicating to Stephanie, if I just sit there and say, like, hey, we should be able to find savings. That's not like. And that's probably what I do. You know, Stephanie will be defensive while you do the groceries kind of thing. Right? So, you know, trying to find a way to, you know, as a team, kind of look into this deeper. Where. Where is the. Within the groceries? Where is the money going? Can we find cheaper alternatives or deals or blah, blah, blah, Or.

[Stephanie]

Or even. Sorry, Chris, again, to cut you off. How much should we be spending on groceries? Like, we don't even have that. It's this kind of. Well, we're buying what we're buying. Like, we don't even have, like, a starting number of. Okay, let's try to keep it at X. X amount of dollars a week for groceries, say, right. Let alone where the savings are to be had.

[Stephanie (follow-up message)]

Does that make sense?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Are you all agreeing or disagreeing? I can't figure it out.

[Stephanie]

I can't either.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What's happening right now?

[Chris]

I don't. I don't know if, like, I'm. I'm just saying this is what we do.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So what did each of you just say? Because I suspect this is what happens a lot with your money. Somebody brings something up, the other just starts talking, and then you're both like, all right. And then you just don't talk about it. It's not productive. So let's. We're going to drill in right now. I'm not going to let this go. Chris, zoom up as if you're floating above the conversation. What just happened in that conversation? What did each person say and what was the role they were playing?

[Chris]

I said that we do spend too much on groceries. I. I did say that, you know, looking at what the average family of five spends on groceries might not be, you know, accurate to where we live, etc.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You said we spend too much on groceries. We should probably be able to cut that down. But if I brought that up to Stephanie, she would be defensive. What did Stephanie then say?

[Chris]

Stephanie said that, you know, she kind of agreed.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You think Stephanie agreed with you?

[Chris]

I mean, agreed that we don't discuss it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Chris]

Agreed that we don't really look for sales. Agreed that there's food waste.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I don't think she said any of that stuff. What did she say?

[Chris]

I'm honestly struggling to remember.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, guys, do you. Do you not see that this is part of the problem? That. Chris, you. You've been talking about groceries for two and a half minutes, but you don't even know what you're responding to. It's just this. What do you think's behind that?

[Chris]

I think I have a habit of interrupting folks of kind of vacuuming up space. Typical white male stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, I catch myself, and I try to be aware of it.

[Stephanie]

What?

[Chris]

Oh, sorry. I try to catch myself when it happens. Not always successful. Okay, but, Chris. Okay, that's.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That's perceptive. I don't think you even heard what Stephanie said. And the fact that you have now twice mentioned. You know, I don't remember what she said. Like, that actually tells me you're not really being present and listening, because Stephanie had an extremely good point. Stephanie's point was, well, how do we even know what our target is? But you didn't even hear that.

[Ramit Sethi]

You literally did not hear it. I think you just heard words, Chris. You heard her say the word groceries.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And number, and you. You were like, got it. I'll take it from here.

[Ramit Sethi]

And it. And you actually didn't respond to her point at all. You didn't acknowledge her.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And so we're off in left field here. How often does this happen?

[Chris]

A lot.

[Stephanie]

A lot. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, you guys can't fix your money until this gets fixed. We could fix your CSP no problem. But two days from now, you're going to have exactly the same conversation. You're going to regress right back into where you are. What do you think?

[Stephanie]

You're right. It's what we've been doing. We're just spinning our wheels, having the same argument over and over again.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. So what's it going to take to change therapy? Oh, did you ever see one?

[Stephanie]

I see one.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. Stephanie sees one. Chris.

[Chris]

It's on the to do list.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, am I reading it wrong or. Chris, do you look upset right now? What's going on, Chris?

[Stephanie]

Shame.

[Chris]

Guilt. You know, obviously on paper, I'm like, I've been so career focused, and Stephanie's been great at supporting that because not everybody understands the long journey of becoming an academic. Yep. And then not only that is like, my work comes home with me because of the nature of it. And, you know, I live most of my day thinking like a scientist, being hypercritical of everything. And it's hard to turn that off when you get home. And it's not fair, Stephanie. It's also not fair to myself to like live a life without that joy, without that excitement.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Chris, that's the most honest thing I heard you say today. Like I say that in the most complimentary way. I think that is extremely self perceptive. I also love that you acknowledge Stephanie.

[Ramit Sethi]

And you also acknowledged yourself.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's not fair to you as true. It's not fair to her, it's not fair to your kids. Yeah. I appreciate you being so candid. Stephanie, how did that strike you?

[Stephanie]

I've never really heard him say that in that way. I think I've heard him say it more in an, in an intellectual kind of way, a heady sort of way. But it was kind of nice to see that emotion, I guess, around that. And I appreciate it. I know that's hard for you.

[Chris]

Thank you.

[Ramit Sethi]

I actually love the honesty that we just heard from Chris. And in a way, this is just another example of those traditional gender roles permeating different parts of their daily lives. He goes to work, he brings that same work home with him. He's so caught up in being a provider that he's unable to be present and actually hear what his partner is telling him. And I see this a lot, men who are afraid to stress out their wives. It's a very well trodden, invisible script. I'll give it to you in simple terms. It goes something like this. My wife is emotional. Emotions are bad. They make me uncomfortable. My job is to be a provider and to calm her down. So I'll tell her it's going to be okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What is that?

[Ramit Sethi]

If we actually interrogated that script, that deeply held belief that we have, we might realize. I don't know if I even believe that. Why do I think that? You know, often as men, we are not always equipped to deal with feelings.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And I talk about my experience with.

[Ramit Sethi]

This all the time. It took me a long time and a lot of hard work to access my own feelings. Even, even to be able to answer a question like what do you feel about X? My normal tendency would be to answer, I think X, Y, Z. I was cerebral. I've had to learn how to connect with how I feel about something. It's lifelong journey that I'm on until I actually could access my own feelings. My default when dealing with other people's feelings was I want to make this go away as quickly as possible.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Like I remember when I was an.

[Ramit Sethi]

Early manager and I had somebody crying.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

In my office and I was in my head, I didn't do this out loud. But in my Head. I was like, how long is this going to go for?

[Ramit Sethi]

I need these uncomfortable emotions to go away. That takes a lot of reflection and actively hard work to change. And as men, we often deflect. We go, it's going to be fine. Such a surface level reaction. Or worst of all, we ignore those feelings that come up, especially from our partner, just like Chris has done. I don't even think he heard the words that were coming out of Stephanie's mouth. And so the cycle continues. The result is that they both walk on eggshells and every money conversation they have ends with indecision. How could it not? They're not even actually connecting on what's really going on here. The fact that Chris can acknowledge this and express emotions around it is actually amazing. That was a breakthrough moment, and it indicates to me that he can change. I am willing to bet that these hidden scripts and gender dynamics started decades ago, likely even generations ago.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Can I understand a little bit more about how you grew up with money, Stephanie? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[Stephanie]

I remember I knew when it was like a pay week versus when it wasn't, because one of the things I used to do with my dad was go grocery shopping just to spend time together. It was just like a thing we did. And on a pay week, I could get like an extra little treat. And when it wasn't a pay week, I couldn't. So there was that. And I remember hearing, well, there's no money for that. So.

[Ramit Sethi]

Nope.

[Stephanie]

Just in general about things. I didn't think we were poor poor by any means, but I did not. I knew we weren't like wealthy or anything like that. They didn't talk to us directly about money other than we have it or, nope, we don't have it. So you can't have that. So there's no talk about, like investments or any kind of these bigger picture things. Credit cards, bad save your money was basically the gist of it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It sounds a bit erratic, like we have it, we don't. On an almost weekly basis. Am I reading that right?

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And would you describe socioeconomically, were you poor, lower middle class? How would you describe it?

[Stephanie]

I think we were probably middle class.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Then why? Why was it so erratic?

[Stephanie]

I think it's just the way my dad in particular talked about it.

[Chris]

Oh, wow.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So it's possible that you actually had more money?

[Stephanie]

Oh, I'm sure we did. Now he's since passed away and my sister, because my again, my dad took care of all the finances. And stuff. So my mom really needed help when he passed away. So my sister stepped into that role. She's well taken care of for her retirement. Like houses paid off the whole thing. So we definitely were not. I, we weren't struggling, at least from what I can tell.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What do you make of it now, looking back? The fact that, you know, you could get certain things on certain weeks but not on other weeks. What do you make of that?

[Stephanie]

I think they prioritize their money better than we are, quite honestly. Because I grew up playing sports, there was always money for me to play my sports. That was never an issue. We traveled, stayed at hotels, the whole deal. But there wasn't an importance on like extras. Cause I remember like getting to high school, my friend's parents would like buy them Lululemon. That wasn't happening in New Buy house.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And in the shopping you mentioned that on a pay week you would get something. What would you choose back then?

[Stephanie]

Oh, like a bag of chips or like a chocolate bar.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

When you go to the grocery store now as an adult. Yep. Do you consider it a pay week or a non pay week?

[Stephanie]

I don't.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's just whatever I want, I'm an adult. I'll get it.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Ramit Sethi]

How do you feel when you check.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Out of the grocery store lately?

[Stephanie]

Like, like. Oh, God, like a little bit of dread, quite honestly.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Feels bad.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You change anything because of the bad feelings or.

[Stephanie]

No. No.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right. Chris, can you tell me what your family said about money as you were young?

[Chris]

So my, I think my dad, you know, he did tell us how important saving was, how important not paying interest was that. But it definitely came from, you know, a classical family where it was more of barking orders. Right. Like a lecture. And you know, growing up I thought we were like lower middle class. Middle class. And it was until my teens I was like, oh, they make pretty good money on the verge of upper middle class. But they, they were saving and investing in stuff. I think the biggest thing was when I had my paper route when I worked part time as a teenager, my dad did demand to see like checking accounts and balances and I would get a scolding if I wasn't. Basically I got scolded for saving, so for spending. Sorry. Okay. And, and I think what I learned was, well, as soon as I get out of here, I'm going to buy the video games and the stuff that I want.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You're going to reject and rebel what your dad told you about money. And you're going to get what you want because you are an adult.

[Chris]

Yeah, and that's kind of what I did in my 20s. Whether it was clothes or video games or other stuff that probably didn't matter in the long run.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Looking back on what you learned from your family about money, which of those lessons do you think you bring to this relationship?

[Chris]

I mean, I love my dad, but I think broader than the money thing, I think the not listening to people, slash, interrupting definitely comes from him. This obsession with paying down the credit card debt, it did come from him as well, but like none of the other, you know, potential saving and investing.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That's pretty interesting. I think the first one you mentioned about not listening, quite savvy, and it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Seems kind of out of left field.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But probably directly related to money. What do you think if you became a better listener with Stephanie, specifically as it relates to money, but in general, too, how do you think that would improve your financial situation?

[Chris]

I think listening to Stephanie, in generating the plan of what our categories are, specifically, what is our plan to move forward with money, I think that's where the true, like, listening would be, be. Because I think up until this point, even when I, quote, unquote, agree, there's no action that follows.

[Stephanie]

Right. I think we're both kind of waiting for the other one to take the lead. Oh, in a lot of ways, I feel like we're just kind of floundering and not going anywhere. We're treading water, but not. Not even anymore, really.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You're kind of going underwater.

[Stephanie]

Yeah, exactly. So I think you're. You're spot on when you. When you're saying our communication is going to be the foundation for all of this.

[Ramit Sethi]

What role do each of you think.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You play when it comes to money? If you just zoomed up and you just looked in general, Stephanie, when you talk about money, bring money up. What is your role? And Chris, same question for you. What would your answer be?

[Stephanie]

I think I'm a bit of. I don't want to say nag, because I. I don't. I don't think I'm. I'm nagging, but I'm the. I bring the problems. Bring the problems up. Okay.

[Chris]

And Chris, if I'm being honest, I think my mode has been make it, make the money, like provide, and then everything will be okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How does it strike you both to hear these roles just laid out stark and bare?

[Stephanie]

Neither. Neither one are particularly helpful because we're not working with each other.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I mean, there is a role to talk about problems. Yes. There's a role for. For one or both People to earn money. Yes, but it's almost like you're operating in a different matrix. And notably, I don't hear anyone say, oh, I'm the solutions person.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, where's the solution coming from?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That we need that role too.

[Ramit Sethi]

And most of all, we need them.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

To all talk together. The thing is, you're married, you have kids, ostensibly you want similar things. You want a successful family, financial security. We can talk about what the rich life is, but it's not happening. In part for pretty obvious reasons. The roles are not talking to each other. There's not a habit of follow through. I don't see any mysteries here. Do you?

[Stephanie]

Not when you zoom out like that.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Now I'm curious, when you were together before kids, did you talk about money at all?

[Chris]

I think we did.

[Stephanie]

Well, I will say that I remember on more than one occasion when we were living in the States, actually, after starting to watch your, your Netflix show and listening to your podcast, wanting to start investing and Chris being like, there was always a reason kind of not to. Where it was like, well, we're going to move back to Canada, so do we want to like even bother setting something up here or now when we've talked about it in the last couple of years, it's, well, we need to save like $5,000 to get us started investing. And it just, I don't really know how to counter because I don't know how it really works. I don't feel confident in that area. So again, I shut down and then drop it. And then a couple months later we have the same conversation.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What's your take on that, Chris?

[Chris]

Yeah, I think Stephanie in general is right. It's, she is right. When we were in Houston, I felt like it was just overly complex to invest in, in while in the States and then move back to Canada. So I kind of kicked it down the line.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How much money do you think you lost by not investing?

[Stephanie]

I try not to think about it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Because I. Oh, let's think about it now. I love it.

[Chris]

I mean, we, we, we pulled in pretty good money in American funds while down there.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How much total?

[Chris]

First years it would have been about, you know, 120. But by the, by the final year it would have been closer to 1 50. 1 60.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

1 60. How many years were you there?

[Chris]

Six, five years. Yeah, almost six years.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Six years. Should we just do the math for fun?

[Chris]

Sure.

[Stephanie]

Yes.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right, so let's say 10%. That's conservative. You should have been able to do more since you didn't have Kids. But this is 10% of gross. Just to make it easy years to grow. Well, let's just do 5, 6, just for fun, and we'll do 7%. All right, so just. Just from then until now, you would have had $107,000 just sitting around. How about if we just let that thing keep growing and we didn't add any more to it, so we add nothing more to it for the next, what, 25 years? $581,000 in today's dollars. The amount you would see in the bank, the nominal would be $1.1 million.

[Chris]

A ton of money. Can I offer a little bit more detail, though?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Why?

[Chris]

So the first couple years down there, we were actually paying down Stephanie's student debt.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

No. Why are you offering more details? Is it to. Is it to justify not investing?

[Chris]

No, I totally agree with you. We should have invested. Okay, totally agree. I just. The reality would have been, well, the first couple of years like we did, we probably wouldn't have been able to put away what. What we're brainstorming right now. That's. That's all. I'm not denying that would be all be tons of money that we would have that we clearly don't have right now. I think I just. I get focused on details like that, and I know it derails conversations and stuff like that.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's happening right now. Yes.

[Chris]

And I'm doing it in real time. And I'll stop.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

The point is whether you would have invested 10% or 8% or 13%, you would have had a lot of money.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And the inaction is not just with this. It's after you went to Canada.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And it's after you had kids, basically. It's not based on the circumstances around you, as you've been telling yourself. It's you. Until you acknowledge that the decisions that I see reflected in your finances, there's always a good reason, like, well, we didn't have kids, but we had debt, but then we had kids, and now we have this, and we live in this remote area. Like, all of it is actually very compelling. But when you zoom out and see the totality of it, you go, oh, these are just habits. You didn't save when you had a lot of money. You're not saving now. You just don't save now. You can change that because you don't have to be the same person you were. You can also change your behavior. That's even easier. Just start investing. We can talk about the numbers, but you have to admit, and really take A hard look in the mirror. Oh, my God. It's. It has nothing to do with the circumstances around us. While true, other people in the same circumstances probably would have reacted differently.

[Stephanie]

You're right. And I think to not just throw Chris under the bus, I sat around and did nothing too.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Your comment that I didn't. I'm not confident about money. Why don't you get confident? It's not that hard just to be very, very direct with you. Again, I'm not trying to talk down to anybody. I'm saying money's important.

[Ramit Sethi]

It's clearly important because you bring it up.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You describe yourself as the person who brings up the problems. Why not add that layer of bringing up the solution? Right now what happens is you bring up a problem. Chris, who wants to deflect and kick the can down the road and nitpick all the reasons it won't work, he.

[Ramit Sethi]

Actually is only nitpicking your feelings. It becomes a much different conversation when.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You say, I ran the numbers, knowing our fixed costs. Here's what we would have to do, here's what it would cost us, here's our trade offs, and here's how I would do it. But I'm totally open to hearing how you would do it because. Because I want you to be a part of this as well. Well, now it's not so easy to just be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Ramit Sethi]

You actually have something to look at.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Have you ever had a conversation like that?

[Stephanie]

I have brought the CSP to you before.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Ooh, what happened?

[Stephanie]

You called it a budget and we're.

[Ramit Sethi]

Like, well, we budget.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Hold on now I'm going to start crying on this show right now. These are tears. You can't see them.

[Stephanie]

They're.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

They're skin colored. My tears don't come out like other people's tears. I am crying inside. You called it a budget.

[Chris]

I apologize. I don't. I don't remember when this was.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, that's fine. I don't mind that you said it was a budget even though it's not a budget. What happened then?

[Stephanie]

Stephanie, that's. Again, I shut down. I get frustrated because I didn't feel like I was explaining it in a way that made sense to Chris. And then I just got frustrated and dropped it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What if it doesn't need to make sense to Chris? What if your need to have Chris understand things is actually one of the blockers in you moving ahead? You two are partners, and the fact is you need to invest. You need to pay down debt, you need to Save. If one person doesn't understand, then make them understand or move forward anyway. But right now, putting it back on yourself and then describing yourself as, oh, I just get frustrated, that actually isn't acceptable if you want to change your finances. And Chris, do you see the effect that your responses are having on Stephanie?

[Chris]

You know, in the long term, obviously it, it can put strain on the relationship, the partnership in general. You know, we need to work through this thing where, you know, if my reaction, my instinctual reaction, which can be bad, can, you know, I obviously need to work on that to avoid making step like Stephanie's reaction of shutting down.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How are you going to work on it?

[Chris]

I mean, I'm going to need help to figure out how. That's just the vulnerable part.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Agreed. So let's just decide right now though. How are you going to do it? Therapy. Okay, I think that's really good. I think there's like a lot to dig into there. And Stephanie, you want to ask her how she would like for you to show up.

[Chris]

Stephanie, how would you like me to show up?

[Stephanie]

I would like you to show up with an open mind without feeling like you have to manage my feelings or solve whatever the problem is.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Chris, you know, you may find yourself in old patterns, as you said, you'll get some new tools in therapy, but you can, you can always stop and just be like, I think I'm going back to the old Chris. Chris the dream crusher. Let me just stop right here. Do you mind if I take 10 minutes? Just think for a second. I'd love to come back and start this over fresh.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's totally cool.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So feel free to use that tool and many others that you will both learn.

[Ramit Sethi]

I have to say, I love the level of self awareness that Chris and Stephanie are showing. They're not being defensive. They're actually each stepping up to own their side of the road when it comes to what has gone wrong. There is a recurring pattern in story after story that they tell me about their money and it's inaction. For Chris, it was not wanting to go through the hassle of investing in the US Knowing that they were going to move back to Canada. Inaction. For Stephanie, it's getting frustrated that she doesn't have the knowledge or the language to. To be able to meaningfully contribute to the conversations about money. And so she shuts down inaction. Part of the reason they have been able to get away with this inaction is that they haven't really faced any real consequences. They've been able to lean on family in the past. And sure they've been racking up debt.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But what's the big deal?

[Ramit Sethi]

Still got a roof over our heads, still have our phones. What's the problem? If they had faced real consequences, they would probably have a bigger sense of understanding of the urgency. But the fact is these consequences are coming and they are coming fast. With 92% fixed costs, it is just a matter of months, maybe even weeks before they will have to face real and possibly devastating consequences.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So next up, I'm going to get.

[Ramit Sethi]

Real about their debt.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So the debt of $544,000, what is the plan to deal with this debt?

[Stephanie]

I mean the bulk of it is the mortgage. So like of course we'll be paying, making our mortgage payments, but for like the line of credit and the credit cards. No, like we know we have to pay it off. I think we could probably. There's one that's kind of smaller that we could knock out fairly quickly.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How'd you get into credit card debt?

[Stephanie]

It's funny because we, again, the whole treading water, we only really got into it a couple months ago where we were paying off our balance every, every month. So I'm, I'm working part time now. But I had picked up another kind of casual position and then I, it didn't really suit our family life. So I stopped that. So that income stopped coming in. Expenses just kind of crept up and we just couldn't pay off the full balance. So it just kind of snowballed since July.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Why are you not able to pay off the full balance?

[Stephanie]

Life. Right. We're again, the whole not paying attention to where our money's going. And it just.

[Chris]

Can I add a little bit of information? So from a snapshot, the move, the move to a bigger house in November. Obviously there's indirect costs of buying a new house, furniture, other stuff. You going from two job like full, basically full time to halftime. We don't think about the numbers. We, we need. After the third child, we needed a bigger place and we sort of semi ran the numbers and said it's doable. But at the time we had two. Two like Stephanie had the full income.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

When you, when you drop the income a bit, did you adjust your expenses at all?

[Chris]

No, not at all.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Nobody does.

[Stephanie]

No.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, then you owe 50k to your family. What's that about?

[Chris]

So most of that is to my dad. He's. That was actually a contribution to the down payment for most of it.

[Stephanie]

No, no, we, we had saved enough for the down payment. It was for like Everything else. Right. Because it's more than just a down payment when you buy a house. So we had to buy. Yeah, like, buying, like, furniture. We needed to get a second car when we moved here.

[Chris]

But that wasn't. Wasn't for the recent house in November. It was when we moved back to Canada.

[Stephanie]

Back to Canada. It was to help with, like, the other kind of costs of moving internationally, I guess. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, I'm sorry. I just woke up again, and two hours later, we're still talking about irrelevant details.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Guys, come on.

[Ramit Sethi]

What's going on here?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What is. What is the need to get into the details? You owe $50,000 to family on top of credit card debt on top of a line of credit. What's happening right now? I want to help you. I'm not giving up on you. But I can't pull you up out of the weeds over and over. I need you to be able to do it. You're adults. You made the decisions to get into this financial situation. I'm just asking you simple questions. What would somebody else have done before they moved into a bigger house? How would they have handled it? Someone who's better equipped with money, looked.

[Stephanie]

At the actual numbers and whether it was actually feasible.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What else?

[Stephanie]

And if it wasn't coming up with.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

A plan, what would the plan have been like?

[Stephanie]

Coming up with what. How much we actually needed and a timeline.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Stephanie]

And then like, a plan to get there. Whether that's again, picking up another job, cutting our expenses, and if. To see if there's ways to do that. Yep.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Chris, what do you say?

[Chris]

So I totally agree. Like, there's a lack of timeline and a lack of discussing the sacrifices needed. You know, we were. We were not happy in the smaller house. And so I took it me as that fixer of like, okay, even if it's. We're gonna struggle a bit. Let's get this bigger house. But, yeah, the smarter decision would have been to stay in that smaller house for longer. Right. Do you see this is powerful.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Do you see how the dynamics between the two of you have cost you tens of thousands of dollars? This is very common. Male, female. The guy is like, I'm gonna just fix it. Like, I'll take the burden on my back. Like, my. And then my wife just wants stuff. Oh, my God. I gotta find a way for her to not want it. Oh, okay, I'll work. It's very gender stereotypical, and I hate it because nobody ends up happy. There's all these invisible expectations, which are often from a different generation. Where one person worked and another didn't. You're both working, you're both highly educated, and nobody even's talking about these expectations.

[Ramit Sethi]

They're just invisible. I want you to be able to.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Make better decisions and I think that the way you communicate it needs work and help.

[Ramit Sethi]

I'm getting a little frustrated in this conversation because it feels like I'm taking one step forward and two steps back. Yes, the gender roles are a major issue, but so is this near term view that they both have around their finances. They're basically stuck in the weeds and so they talk and shut down and talk and shut down and, and never make any meaningful decisions. Candidly, this is a luxury problem that they can only afford because they haven't actually really faced true consequences. My philosophy here is why would I ever let my back get against the wall? Like for the parents listening, let's say your kid comes home crying from school one day, somebody stole their lunch, the next day they get pushed down on the ground. Would you wait and let your kid get punched in the face and come home with a bloody nose and missing teeth? Of course not. So why do you allow that for yourself? I remember a friend once saying, I wish I could tell people to get impatient with themselves. We get impatient with other people, but why don't we do the same for ourselves with our career, with our money, with our relationships. If you are stuck in the weeds and every time you talk about money, you just end up going in circles, you probably need a totally new way to look at your money. I want you to join my money coaching program. Aside from you coming on this podcast if want to you, it is the only way to get coaching from me directly. It doesn't matter if you're married, single, you're nearing retirement, or you're just starting off, you're going to get the tools to take control of your money and create a radically different relationship with money. I want you to change your relationship with money from being on the defense to going totally on the offense in creating your rich life. You can sign [e-mail] money coaching. Now, getting back to the numbers, Stephanie recently made the decision to work less, which is a big factor in their high fixed costs.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And I have some questions about that. Stephanie, in your application you wrote that you feel you're not contributing enough. What do you mean by that?

[Stephanie]

Well, I'm only working part time, so I definitely could be bringing in more money, especially with my profession and skill set.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Is it possible for you to work more? It is family wise. There's no barriers there.

[Stephanie]

Well, the simplest way for me to work more would be to go back to the bedside. Bedside pays more, but then comes with 12 hour shifts and overnights, which is tough with three young kids. So that's kind of why we've avoided it. We did it initially when we moved back here and it just didn't work. It didn't work for us.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So I'm just looking for. If it's not possible, I totally respect it. Is it possible or not? Yes or no?

[Stephanie]

No, it's. That is, it's to stop dancing around it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You know, part of changing the dynamic with money is becoming decisive.

[Stephanie]

I struggle, I will say I struggle with that big time.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yeah. Nobody ever tripped and fell into a rich life. And part of living a rich life is being honest with yourself and the people around you. If you can't increase your income right now, say it. If what you currently spend on groceries is X, say it. Because we got to work with what is real, then we can improve it or change it. Okay, Chris, you started your career a little bit later because of what you do. You have a pension. I think that pension is going to grow. So you feel confident in the future while Stephanie worries about the present. What do you make of that?

[Chris]

I should be focused on the present. Even though I trust my future. I don't trust and I don't know and I'm very uncertain about Stephanie's future from a career point of view, if I'm being honest and Stephanie can correct me if I'm wrong, but I fear that even if Stephanie found a great community nursing position that was full time, she still wouldn't be happy. And so we need to get out of this hole and get our plan together and make some sacrifices. I think, and I think that's the key thing that's been missing.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Stephanie, what do you think about Chris's comments?

[Stephanie]

He's right. I don't necessarily think like, you have to, like, love what you do by any means, but I just don't want to dread it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How do you think other people who don't dread their job do it? What is different about them than you?

[Stephanie]

I don't know.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's okay. It's a tough, tough thing to think about. What are you thinking?

[Stephanie]

I don't know what the tears are about. Honestly, I. I don't know what this is about.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Can I ask the question again? The people who don't dread their job, what do you think they do differently than you?

[Stephanie]

They probably have a plan, they have a direction.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Do you mind if I suggest a couple of things?

[Stephanie]

Sure.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Your kids are in swim class now, is that right? Swim lessons. What happened when you put them in the pool?

[Stephanie]

Oh, he ended it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Oh, really? What happened?

[Stephanie]

He, like, I don't know if it was the temperature of the water or. Or what it was, but he just was not impressed to be there. He. He warmed up to it a little.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Bit, but wasn't enjoying it.

[Stephanie]

Huh.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And were you there?

[Stephanie]

I was there, yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What were you saying to him when you saw him thrashing around and crying and screaming? It's okay. What else?

[Stephanie]

I mean, I was singing to him, trying to soothe him a little bit.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Wow.

[Stephanie]

Taking him through the water, trying to be calm.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So when he was going through something stressful, he had somebody who loves him cheering him on and supporting him. Something that people who work hard and sometimes work really stressful jobs might have somebody cheering them on and supporting them at home.

[Chris]

Bethany, do you feel that I don't. When you're. When you're working stressful positions, that I'm. That you're. You're not getting support from me?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Ask it slightly differently, Chris. Ask how could I support you more?

[Stephanie]

Oh.

[Chris]

Stephanie. How can I support you better when you're have. When we have to make these sacrifices and you have to make these sacrifices, you know, working high stress jobs, et cetera.

[Stephanie]

You could support me more, Chris, by communicating with me in finding a vision and a direction that helps me understand why I'm making this. Yeah. Why it's worth it, at least for this point in time.

[Chris]

Are you asking me to take more of a lead in the finances and the vision for, like, a rich life, et cetera?

[Stephanie]

Not even that. Not so much of a lead, but just to just have the discussions and get on the same page.

[Chris]

I can do that.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Thank you. That's how you do it.

[Ramit Sethi]

Chris asked, how can I support you? And Stephanie gave a beautiful answer. Stephanie needed to know that someone is in her corner. Not solving it for her, not taking over, but. But simply saying, I'm here. Just like she did for her son in the pool. She let him feel that fear and the support at the same time. That is what financial partnership looks like. You're not shielding each other from stress. You're not deferring every decision. You are standing side by side, even when the numbers are scary. And you're saying, we are going to figure this out together. You know, people can do really hard things when they know they are not alone, and that is how you build a rich life. We never try to avoid Discomfort. We get strong enough so that we can handle what comes our way together.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

We got to go back to the CSP and we got to make some changes. Yes, your CSP is currently a 92% fixed costs. Our goal is to get this down to 60% or lower. Where would you like to begin?

[Stephanie]

I think groceries is the most obvious.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, it's $2,000 right now. What do you want to put it at?

[Stephanie]

Realistically, to give a little buffer, I think we could do $1,200.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right, $1,200 it is. Watch what happens to the fixed cost number. Ready? What's that number now?

[Stephanie]

84%.

[Chris]

84%.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

From 92% to 84%. Okay. We're moving in the right direction. What else?

[Stephanie]

I think we take a look at those subscriptions.

[Chris]

I want to be realistic. Like 220.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay. From 295 to 220. All right, fine. What else?

[Chris]

So the child activities includes this swimming. You know, we have them in swimming for the next eight months. I just don't think private swimming will be sustainable after that eight months. And so I'm not pushing. You know, if we have to, if we have to somehow exit it as a sacrifice to lower these fixed costs and maybe I need a slap in the head that, like, this is one of those tough calls that, like, maybe next year, right, if we can somehow.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Get out, slap you in the head. Stephanie is the one who wants it. So who, when you say if I need. Who's going to slap you in the head?

[Stephanie]

You?

[Chris]

No, I, I, I just feel like it is one of those fixed costs that, that we can change right now.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Why is everybody walking on eggshells right now if this. I feel like it's something we can change. Say what you want to say, Chris.

[Ramit Sethi]

Be direct.

[Chris]

I think we should remove it. I think we should delay it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Chris]

I think so.

[Stephanie]

So pull, pull them for now.

[Chris]

For now? Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, so that means zero.

[Chris]

I mean, that, that's, Is that just the swimming or is that some. They also do some of the summer stuff.

[Stephanie]

There's, I think it had the music therapy and stuff in there, but that's done for now anyway.

[Chris]

So we, right now it would be zero. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Sometimes the simplest thing you do is just get clear on what you want and then say it. The dancing around is not just from the other person. It's coming from both of you inside.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Like, what you're really trying to say is I want somebody to say that we can't afford this, but I am not saying it.

[Ramit Sethi]

So somebody up there in heaven, please say it for.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Nobody's up there, okay? It's only us.

[Chris]

We can't afford it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

There you go. We can't afford it. I love that. I don't usually love that phrase, but.

[Ramit Sethi]

Right now I love it. Okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

$0,312 in child activities, getting dropped to zero. Whoa, what's that number?

[Stephanie]

77.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

77%. Okay, let me just pause here for a second. How are you both feeling right now?

[Chris]

I feel fearful that we're housebroke. And, you know, there is an unwillingness right now, like, we're not going to sell this. We are in our dream house.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Chris]

We. We don't plan to move again. But I do feel like up as far as, you know, being okay with the move last fall.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Do you see how you got to this point?

[Chris]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

By feeling the need to reassure and acquiesce to Stephanie. Stephanie. By saying, I want this, but also not running the numbers.

[Ramit Sethi]

But also, Chris didn't run the numbers either.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Like, you were co creators in this.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But the fact is, you're here. I actually think, first of all, I just want to say from a how do I feel? Perspective, I think you've made some pretty good progress. That was actually really impressive. I just want to take a second, give you a round of applause. You didn't get stuck.

[Ramit Sethi]

So I'm impressed.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

I'm impressed. I can sense that everybody's feeling a little bit stuck.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It's like these changes are not making any more changes. Chris.

[Chris]

My head wants to go back to income. The only other option right, is can. Can Stephanie pull in more?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Stephanie?

[Stephanie]

I mean, I'm gonna have to sacrifice.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

That's actually the kind of energy I love. I love it. Do you think you could do that, Stephanie?

[Stephanie]

I do.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And is there a possibility of Chris earning any extra income as well?

[Chris]

My job is unionized. I get three grand to seven grand a year added to my salary every April. So my, you know, if you look at the curve of my income, like, you know, in six months from now, it'll go up by. Actually, it'll go up 7k next April. So even if I did nothing, my. My income will be double within 20 years. Like, I will be making 200 grand, you know, in today's money, you know, 20 years from now.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Stephanie, are you aware of this?

[Stephanie]

Yes.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What does it mean to you when you hear that?

[Stephanie]

Not a ton. Because it doesn't help us now.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

See what I mean about living in the future versus living in the present, it's going to go up, which is going to bring your fixed cost down. Naturally. We also got to be a little bit more diligent about the earnings and the expenses. Would you agree? Yeah.

[Stephanie]

Yes.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right. So at $400 a month for your credit card debt, it's going to take you about three years to pay off that 10k.

[Ramit Sethi]

Yeah, it's quite interesting.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

If you make it 500amonth, you can pay it off in two years. What does that tell you?

[Chris]

Put, put more as much as on debt as we can.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yes.

[Ramit Sethi]

And also these random expenses that you're.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Buying that oftentimes you say you need. Yeah, I need to pay off my credit card debt faster than I need whatever arbitrary thing came up today.

[Ramit Sethi]

Basically when you really break down what.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You need versus what you want, it become very stark when you're honest with yourself. What are some examples of things you have spent money on that you could have rather put the money towards? Credit card debt.

[Stephanie]

Swimming lessons.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

What else?

[Stephanie]

Well, nonsense, takeout, eating out, that kind of stuff. Stuff you have nothing to show for at the end of the day.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How often would you say you eat out?

[Stephanie]

Oh gosh, at least twice a week at home with the kids. So we do like a Friday night and then once on the weekend and then it's like random like breakfast or coffee while we're working.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

How many times? Total coffee, dinner, lunch, takeout, whatever, delivery.

[Stephanie]

So for me, I probably on myself probably three or four times a week. Two with the kids.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, six.

[Chris]

Chris at work probably almost every day. I'm quote unquote using my, you know, guilt free spending, whatever. But five. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

All right, so what do we say, six plus five? 11. 11 times a week? Probably more because I'm not even getting into the math, but it's usually triple whatever people tell me, whatever.

[Ramit Sethi]

That's a lot.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You could knock off a year of.

[Ramit Sethi]

Payments with and you could still actually eat out.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You could still do a big family dinner. You decide when. Maybe once a month. If I'm in sacrifice mode, I'm doing once a month. It's a big thing.

[Ramit Sethi]

We're all. Not a big dinner.

[Stephanie]

It's.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

We talk about it, we put out the options, everybody votes. It becomes a big fun family thing, then we go there.

[Chris]

I think this all goes hand in hand with other aspects of our lives. Right. You know, the discipline, the sacrifice that's needed.

[Stephanie]

But also on top of that, we don't have a clear vision as to like why the sacrifices is worth it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yes.

[Chris]

And I, I'm Only now seeing why that, like, that's very critical for you.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

To see that that'll allow you to make these sacrifices without, you know, you're still going to be stressed, et cetera, but you're still going to be like, oh, this is what it's worth. Like, this is.

[Stephanie]

This is the why. Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Now if we do all that stuff going back to the csp, Stephanie, did we talk about your earnings?

[Stephanie]

No, not yet.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Did you agree that you could earn. Earn more? Yeah. Okay, how much could you earn?

[Stephanie]

I think at least 6,000amonth.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Okay, what would the net be on that?

[Stephanie]

With removing like benefits and taxes and stuff?

[Chris]

It would probably realistically be more like five grand total.

[Stephanie]

Right.

[Chris]

Like.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Or do you want me to put five grand here?

[Chris]

Sure.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Because that changes things. Watch. Now you're at 67%. That is a good number.

[Stephanie]

Okay.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

To me, that's pretty impressive. 67% is impressive because you have your debt payments, which will be 400 bucks. Those will be paid off in a couple of years. Well, at least the credit card will. So you knock off at least a couple hundred bucks. Actually, all of that. So it's 500 bucks because you're going to knock it off in two years. Then we're going to drop it down to zero. You're now at 63%. Not to mention Chris's income has gone up by a bunch. So you're actually below 60%. Guys, that's. That puts you in a phenomenal position. You now have hundreds of dollars extra per month to be focusing on things like investing, savings account, paying off the mortgage, and on and on and on. That's a really good position to be in. What do you think?

[Stephanie]

Yeah, I think we'd both feel less stressed.

[Ramit Sethi]

You have a vision of where you're going.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

So it's like when you get up for work every day, you're not just going to work for a day. You're actually working for a rich life.

[Ramit Sethi]

And when you have a reason for the things you're doing, you can take more arrows than anybody thought possible.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

And you actually, better yet, might actually come to enjoy it because you see the connection between your work and what you're able to do. Now, can I just point out a couple of other things here? If you were to increase your income, Stephanie, and we do all the stuff we talked about, you now have $3,400 a month in guilt free spending. That's obviously too much. Yeah, yeah, that's 31%. And the typical number I recommend is 20 to 35%. But because you are in aggressive debt payoff mode, that number should probably even.

[Ramit Sethi]

Be a little bit less.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Maybe like 15%. So what do we want to do with that money? We probably want to put some towards an emergency fund. So what I just did was I put $1250 a month in an emergency fund. I actually think it should probably be a little bit more because right now you have 1,600 bucks. You guys need to get that number to 42,000 at a minimum. With three kids, you need it to be your fixed cost times six, minimum. So that'll take a while. It'll take years. But what you've done is at least you can see you have 500 bucks a month going to investments, 1250 going to emergency fund. I would sure like to see that at 2000 or more. What do you think?

[Chris]

I think it's amazing.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I do have a question I'm curious about, though. Until the credit card line of credit is paid off, would it not potentially be a benefit instead of 1250 into the. This, the emergency fund, maybe clawing that back quite a bit and applying like a grand of that to the debt repayment to try to get to pay the debts as fast as possible? Does that make sense?

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

It make.

[Ramit Sethi]

It makes sense.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Yes. You want to pay off your debt because you're paying interest. But also, what if you theoretically put all of your money towards debt? Okay. And you start paying it off rapidly and then one of you gets laid off.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Or injured or something like that. What do you have to fall back on?

[Chris]

You're right.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Like you need that, that, that buffer.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

You will pay interest by virtue of the decisions you've made that have brought you here. So just accept it. Minimize it. Like Paying an extra $100 saves you a year of payments. Do that. Cause a hundred bucks is nothing you can find that easily.

[Stephanie]

Yeah.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

But also accept that you're going to pay thousands in interest. That's just the decision you made. So prioritize it. But also you need to be saving for your emergency fund. What stood out to you most about today's conversation, Stephanie?

[Stephanie]

That while, yeah, it's about the numbers. It's not about the numbers.

[Chris]

What is it?

[Stephanie]

It's about. It's about how we communicate with each other, being honest with each other, not dancing around the issue and then using. We both were doing it using each other as the excuse for inaction.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Powerful. Okay, Chris, what about you? What surprised you?

[Chris]

I mean, definitely I got myself and how emotional I got and how you know, I really need to. You know, it's always been on the back burner to do my own therapy, and we've talked about couples therapy. I still worry about Stephanie in the sense that, like, when I get home after this, how upset she'll be that, you know, we might be taking them out a swim. Right. Or, like, you know, I, I think now that we've done this, I. And there's a vision, I. I think there'll be meaningful change. Right? Like from. From the ability to make sacrifice. And like you said earlier, she's super strong and capable of doing this. Yes. Very powerful.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Both of you are strong, capable people. Parents, professionals, partners. And although it might feel uncomfortable to know that your partner is experiencing some type of distress, you're both going to feel distress because you're like turning a.

[Ramit Sethi]

Ship around in a completely different direction.

[Stephanie]

I feel relief that we have a plan and a direction and that we're both on the same page with it.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

We're going to get to their follow ups in just a second, but I.

[Ramit Sethi]

Want to give a huge thank you to Stephanie and Chris for being so vulnerable and so open with all of us today. Did you notice in today's conversation how much time we spent on the numbers as opposed to their communication and psychology around money? I noticed that we knocked out the numbers in about five minutes. And it's interesting because I see a lot of Internet comments that say, ramit, you spend too much time talking about feelings. Just give me the numbers. I would have said exactly the same thing when I was starting with money. But I want today's discussion to tell you why I do things the way I do. I can tell you right now, if we hadn't spent hours talking about how they really feel, there is no way they would have attacked that CSP and brought their fixed costs down by 30%. Money is not just about numbers. That's the point of this entire podcast. It's deeply intertwined with our feelings, with our psychology, with the way that we were brought up in our cultural background and our unique personal experiences. Don't skip that. The point of living a rich life is not to be efficient. It is to create and live and enjoy a rich life. If we simply skipped over the emotional and psychological aspects, we would never uncover the real reasons that we behave the way we do with money. It's not enough to just know the numbers. You've also got to master your psychology, and that is a gift to be able to understand why you do things the way you do. Stephanie and Chris, they made Huge strides today. I want to encourage them to keep going. It's probably going to take seeing a therapist, probably together. It's going to take a lot of practice but, but they took the first step today and I am rooting for them now. Let's check out their follow ups.

[Stephanie]

Hi Ramit, Kris and I just want.

[Stephanie (follow-up message)]

To say thank you so much for having us on. It was really valuable having an impartial third party look at our finances and our dynamics from the outside and your insights were, were really helpful to us. So we have had weekly money dates. I think we've had about three so far. We meet during the week, in the morning, on the same day and they've gone really well. Those conversations are way less fraught than they used to be. We each take the lead in the respective areas that we kind of have been in charge of and it's a really good back and forth and it's really helped us stay on the same page and have a positive kind of dynamic around money discussions. We also have shortlisted couples therapists are in and are in the process of booking meet and greets to find someone who's a good fit. So in terms of the changes we've made, we canceled and were refunded, were refunded for swim lessons. So that was the first thing. We've cut our subscriptions by about 75% so we're down to $88 a month for subscriptions. We have managed to keep our grocery bill to under $300 of a week which will bring our monthly total down from 2000amonth to 1200 for groceries, which is huge. We've also deleted the takeout apps off of our phones and we are doing family either takeout or meal twice a month and that seems sustainable for us right now. But we're open to relooking at that. We have stopped using our credit cards completely and have paid off our lowest balance credit card which is about $2,000. And in terms of me for work, I have been applying to different nursing positions and I interviewed this week actually for a position that is higher paying than the one I have now and would bring me up to full time hours. And in addition to that, I was offered the opportunity for a position that is completely outside of nursing and it would be like a project management video production position. And I'm in the process of meeting with the, with a board of directors and negotiating pay and everything around that. So I think everything is heading in a much more positive direction now that we have kind of a vision and A plan together. And we just want to say thank you Roomit, for helping us get there. Who we really appreciate it.

[Chris]

Hey Ramit, it's Chris. Firstly, I just want to personally thank you and of course Stephanie and I want to thank you and the whole team for everything you've done for us. The past three weeks have been really life changing in the sense that I already notice a huge new positivity from Stephanie and from both of us. We, we've been meeting every week to talk about the CSP and the changes that we're making. Basically no more eggshells. And I came home one day a couple weeks ago and Stephanie had posted this as well as the joke about being on the same team. And that's what we're striving to do. So we've cut a lot of subscriptions, about 75% of the costs. Luckily, a lot of these subscriptions I use for work, so I put them on my work budget, which has been great. We've at least for the last three weeks successfully cut our groceries down to about 300 a week, so 1200amonth. So that seems to be doable. The girls, we did end up cutting the swimming and getting a refund, but luckily we have added them back into music therapy which starts in a couple of weeks. And that's something that they both really enjoy and it's, it's much more affordable. And within the csp, our meetings are every week. It's been positive and I've seen, you know, great change in mood and you know, there isn't, we, we have to bring up the eggshells if, if, if we have to sort of say what we mean with each other and, and that's the goal. We may have basically full time funds coming in on Stephanie's side, which would really help. Finally, and probably most importantly for me is on top of looking into couples therapy. I've been inquiring for personal therapy for myself as well. So we have coverage for a certain amount of therapy and I'm currently inquired and currently booked for a consultation with a therapist. So again, thank you so much. Everything's been so helpful in us getting our financial vision and beyond just our finances, but more of more of team energy together, period. Thank you so much.

[Money Coach / Interviewer]

Bye.

[Ramit Sethi]

If you want my help with your specific money questions, you can apply to be on this [e-mail] apply or you can become a member of my money coaching program [e-mail] money coaching. In money coaching, you get access to monthly 90 minute group coaching calls with me. We go deep on a single money topic, one that has been transformative to me, and you have the chance to ask me questions in our live Q&A. Plus, you you'll get access to a community of other people like you who will inspire you and push you to live your rich life. Check out money [e-mail] moneycoaching.