The Heart of The Messy Middle | Making a Millionaire

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Heart of The Messy Middle | Making a Millionaire

Money Guy Show | Brian Preston & Bo Hansen
Date: May 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into "the messy middle" years of wealth building, focusing on a real couple, Luke and Anna, in their early 30s with three young kids. Their story unpacks the realities of financial growth, relationship dynamics, career transition dreams, competing priorities, and the communications challenges that come with managing money as a team. Brian and Bo offer practical guidance, empathy, and strategic advice to help Luke and Anna—and listeners—find greater confidence and clarity in their unique financial journeys.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Luke & Anna: Background & Financial Story

• Fast-forwarded messy middle: Married in college; had children immediately. "We only dated for four months and were engaged for four months too." (Luke, 07:29)
• Both started as teachers; Anna left full-time work after their second child, cutting the household income in half.
• Luke hustled multiple side gigs until securing a higher-paying ($90k) remote project manager position, stabilizing finances.
• Luke also runs rapidly growing summer sports camps (now partnered with Nike Sports Camps), dreaming it could replace his W2 income in 2–3 years.

Notable Quote:
"We started the messy middle immediately… The last 12–18 months is the first time in our nine years of marriage we're like, ‘Oh, we're probably in the best financial spot we've been in.’"
—Luke (06:08)

2. Financial Opposites: Different Money Mindsets

• Anna: Seeks experiences, connection, and fun; dislikes feeling micromanaged or controlled.
  "I'm viewing things out of the lens of like, how can we enjoy our lives? How can we give our kids good experiences?"
  —Anna (08:15)
• Luke: Debt-averse, precise budgeter, future-focused, finds comfort in tracking.
• Their different backgrounds (Anna from financial comfort, Luke from hardship) shape their financial expectations and communication.

Common Conflict:

• The frequency and tone of money check-ins:
  "I don't enjoy being micromanaged and being told what to do... it brings up some anxiety for [Luke] not knowing what expenses are—which can come across as accusatory."
  —Anna (11:09)

3. Current Financial Position & Goals

(Timestamp: 17:06)

• Net worth: $342,000
  • Cash: ~$40,000
  • Investments: $106,000+
  • Home Equity: Significant ($380k house, $183k mortgage @ ~3.5% interest)
• Savings/Investment:
  • 6% to Roth 401k (4% employer match)
  • Maxing out HSA (finally growing after years of medical spend)
  • Legacy Roth IRA for Anna & rolled-over teacher retirements
  • Modest emergency fund additions ($100/mo)

Their Top Financial Goals:

• Luke:
  1. Upgrade home in ~5 years ($100k down payment, ~$600k home)
  2. Anna’s new car (SUV w/ Apple CarPlay; $20–25k)
  3. Italy trip for 10-year anniversary ($10k, Sept. 2027)
• Anna:
  1. Family experiences (vacations, memories now)
  2. Generosity/giving
  3. Feeling “heard” in budget for needs (home items, occasional upgrades)

Notable Moment—Needs vs. Wants Debate:
"He is very much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs—our needs are food, water, shelter... And I'm like, okay, but also we need towels to dry off from the shower…" —Anna (22:08)

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4. Budgeting, Communication, and Emotional Friction

• System: Highly categorized digital envelope system; multiple checking accounts for sinking funds.
• Friction: Anna finds system rigid, exhausting, and defeating—especially with little day-to-day flexibility. Luke feels safest tracking every dollar but is aware he needs to support Anna’s happiness, too.
• What’s improved: Quarterly family planning, monthly/weekly “money meetings.” Still, frequency and control remain an issue.

Quote:
"Money conversations feel confrontational and uncomfortable for me. I know they're necessary, but it's just draining."
—Anna (48:12)

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5. Expert Guidance: Bo & Brian’s Advice

Shift from Micro-Tracking to Macro-Planning

• Move from hyper-detailed budgets to bigger spending buckets (e.g., “kids/family fun” vs. hyper-specific “kid birthday gifts”).
• Less frequent but more intentional financial check-ins (e.g., monthly date night chats), with more focus on joint priorities.

Personal Finance is Personal—Empower Both Partners

• Find a solution where both Anna and Luke feel respected:
  • Anna: More discretionary “fun money” and say in how big spending areas are structured.
  • Luke: Clarity and control to ensure big-picture goals stay on track.
• *"Operation Anna": Allocate a monthly pool ($400 suggested) for her to control without oversight—Luke steps back deliberately.

The 3D Glasses Plan

• Dream: Camps and W2 reach $200k/yr income.
• Down-to-Earth: Combined $160k is realistic—W2 plus (conservative) side hustle.
• Doo-Doo: Safety net; stay at W2 if the business isn't ready to support the family.

Quote:
"You have to give [the business] enough nutrition through cash and savings to get it through that season… it'll take three years to probably get back to what you were making before." —Brian (28:10)

Happiness and Comparison

• Don’t judge by neighbors—many are “faking it with debt” or have help you can’t see.
• Focus on shared happiness, not keeping score.

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Key Recommendations & Takeaways

Comprehensive Next Steps (60:25+)

1. Keep the W2—for now: Maintain job stability while sports camps grow (3D Glasses approach).
2. Car Upgrade: Save aggressively to fund by end of 2026 ($1,250/mo for 8 months + selling current Highlander = $25k car).
3. Italy Trip: Use sinking fund + $313/mo for 16 months = $10k trip by 10-year anniversary.
4. House in 5 Years: Leverage existing equity + years of additional monthly savings; target $600,000 home with a $278k down payment (keeps payments affordable).
5. Lifestyle Money: Allocate $400/mo “fun money” for Anna.
6. Investments: 14% of income to retirement; still leads to ~$8M at age 65.
7. Total Margin: Of $2,300 extra per month (at $160k income), after goals and "operation Anna," $1,500/mo goes into new savings/house, $400/mo to Anna. Maintain flexibility.
8. Estate Basics: Wills, guardianship, and life insurance for young children are a vital baseline requirement.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Marriage is somebody… there's a lot of patience. You gotta put in the time to the communication. Remember why you love each other. You'll make it through this messy middle." —Bo Hansen (71:48)
• "The thing I don’t want money to do is absolutely rip us apart… [it should be] something that allows us to do the things we want to do and NOT a thing that creates a rift." —Brian Preston (52:29)
• “You never know who comes from some money, who's faking it with so much debt… You'll get into your mid-40s before you really get to see who actually has it and who doesn't.” —Brian Preston (30:53)

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Important Timestamps

• Luke & Anna's Background: 02:00–07:10
• Money Mindsets & Conflicts: 07:45–12:05
• Financial Snapshot & Goals: 17:06–25:56
• Big Financial Debates (Needs vs Wants): 22:00–23:03
• Budgeting Frictions & System: 39:31–49:32
• Bo & Brian's Recommendations (“Operation Anna”): 66:44–67:19
• 3D Glasses Planning Process: 28:20–36:09 | Recap at 58:49–61:31
• Action Plan Rollout: 62:15–70:24
• Closing Reflections on Marriage & Money: 71:48–72:24

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Tone & Language

Supportive, empathetic, practical, "real talk" about the struggles couples face in the “messy middle.” The hosts’ advice is laced with humor, directness, and personal experience.

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Bottom Line

The journey to wealth—especially with kids, dreams, and divergent money mindsets—is rarely smooth or simple. The key isn’t just the right numbers, but the right conversations, systems, and empathy. Luke and Anna's story will resonate with many striving couples: success comes when goals are shared, voices are heard, and money serves the life you truly want together.

Transcript

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[Brian Preston]

When it comes to finances, are you guys often on the same page?

[Anna]

I think I just feel a little pigeonholed sometimes about we're just gonna have to keep saving forever. It's always serious and it's never fun. And those things really, really, like, wear down on me.

[Brian Preston]

If I were to look at your budget, I'm wondering how many different categorical items I'm seeing right now. What I'm feeling is more of a communication issue than a dollars and cents issue. And that's the part, I think that if y' all can get centered on that, you can do anything. So this conversation, like, hey, I signed for this thing.

[Anna]

Well, you just said, I just wrote into this. I didn't know if they we would get chosen. And I was like, oh, okay, I didn't know that you did that. And yeah, then we basically talked about it and he was like, why don't we just make it a weekend and we'll just go and have a good time? So that kind of convinced me to do it.

[Luke]

I love.

[Brian Preston]

So what are you expecting for, like, what do you think? What do you think we're about to talk about here? How's this about to go down?

[Anna]

I don't know. Just, I guess, process through our finances and how we work through it together.

[Bo Hansen]

Let's jump in who you guys are because, I mean, it was kind of fun, exciting to see. Y' all got some kids.

[Luke]

Yeah, three of them.

[Brian Preston]

How old are kids?

[Luke]

Our oldest, he turns seven next week. Our middle guy, he just turned four in January. And then our daughter, she turns two at the beginning of April. So boys and a girl.

[Brian Preston]

That's awesome. That sounds like a. A very messy middle.

[Luke]

Oh, yeah. Maybe just to give like more context, we. We got married and started the messy middle, like immediately. So we got married before our last year of college. And then that summer before we both started our teaching jobs, we both became teachers out of college. We got pregnant that summer before we actually were working full time. And so March of our first year, both working full time, we had our son and we essentially banked one of our paychecks from like August until January and bought a house in January of 2019 before COVID a couple months before. Our schedule worked out okay. I mean like, we were like beginner home, still in it at the time. I'm like freaking out, like, this is so much money. And now I'm like, that was the best decision we made. We have another kid a few years later. Once we have two kids. I'm teaching, coaching basketball. She's teaching full time. We have two kids and we're both kind of on empty for our own kids. We're just like, we're not in alignment with our values as a family and what we want to be able to give our kids, even just emotionally being pro.

[Brian Preston]

Yeah.

[Luke]

And so she and I kind of saw the writing on the wall. She was like, I do not want to keep teaching full time. And she decided to stop teaching full time after we'd had our second. I think we did a year.

[Anna]

Yeah, I taught for a year.

[Luke]

Both of us teaching full time.

[Brian Preston]

Three years ago or so now.

[Luke]

Yeah, I think it was the third school year. And so. But that meant we were losing half our income.

[Bo Hansen]

Sure.

[Luke]

Also, more background. I grew up in a family where I saw my parents go through some significant financial hardship. And she grew up in a family. Her dad was a dentist. They owned a second generation dental office. Just very different experiences with money. Me very debt averse, very like, I'm going to know every number and where every dollar is going. And that wasn't what she came to the table. Having experience with money. And so, yeah, losing half the income for me is like, we got to get. And so I was still teaching, coaching full time. Started multiple things on the side just to bring in extra income. Some out of passion, some out of just need for more cash. I burned myself out really badly for like 18 months to two years just doing like 5060 hour weeks between everything. And then summer 2025, I hopped out of teaching and coaching full time. Got a remote corporate project manager job that was a really significant raise just in a W2 salary. I went from making like 60 as a teacher and coach to 90.

[Brian Preston]

Oh, wow.

[Anna]

Yeah, it was totally the Lord.

[Luke]

Yeah, it was like I didn't even apply for any other job. The right person moved across the street.

[Anna]

We took them a meal after they had a baby.

[Luke]

And I just like, I'm looking for.

[Anna]

Because it was after the report.

[Luke]

Yeah, it was just a huge blessing. And it was just like, okay, now the family is taken care of, so now I don't have to do all this crazy side stuff that I was doing. And so I had like an online newsletter that I had started and sold that email list and a local Christmas light company that I had started with a partner and sold my half of that. And then the third thing that I was doing and part of kind of what I'm really curious to get your guys insight on today is summer 2024 or 2023. I started some sports camps locally in northwest Arkansas. So my background is in teaching and coaching, also background in camps. My parents started and ran a nonprofit doing camps for kids with disabilities when I was in high school. And I was either working at that or another Christian sports camps in the summer. So my background is in camps and teaching, coaching. I'm really passionate about kids having better experiences in sport. And so I started these camps locally and they grew over those first two summers just doing them locally. And then going into summer 2025, I brought all of those camps under the Nike sports camp umbrella and grew those regionally last summer. So two summers ago, it was like 100 kids in northwest Arkansas between a couple camps. And then last summer was like 420 kids across. We're like four states, seven cities. And then this summer is going to be probably somewhere between 1,000 and 1,200 kids in a bunch more states and a bunch more cities. And so still have that thing on the side that I'm really passionate about and love doing and have the W2 now that's kind of taking care of what the family needs. And then she's doing a couple things on the side as well to bring in some extra income. So I just felt like that context is probably helpful. Like, yeah, we were just kind of in the messy middle, like right when we got married almost and started having kids before we thought we were going to. And so the last 12 months, 12 to 18 months, is like the first time in our. We're going on nine years of marriage this summer. The first time in our nine years of marriage, we're like, oh, we're probably like in the best financial spot We've been in.

[Anna]

We didn't get the like five to seven years to like, say, before we

[Luke]

had babies, no kids, was six months.

[Brian Preston]

You know, most couples when they get married, they have like these early years to figure out each other.

[Luke]

Right. Like, oh, that's fine.

[Bo Hansen]

Two years can be hard anyway, just getting to know each other completely.

[Luke]

Oh, yeah. We only dated for four months and were engaged for four months too.

[Bo Hansen]

Wow. A little crazy.

[Brian Preston]

So rather than like having that time to kind of figure out you guys as a, you had to like, jump into being parents, like, right. So now that things I don't want to say settle down. Because with a 7, 4 and 2 year old, nothing has settled down. You didn't have that like, acclamation period early on. When it comes to finances, are you guys often on the same page? Like, are you like, oh, yeah, dude, we get this. Like, it's just we naturally look and think about money the same way. Or is that not the case?

[Luke]

Do you want to answer that question?

[Anna]

I would say in almost every area, we're on different pages, but we're just very different people. We're like the opposite. If you guys follow Enneagram, I'm a seven and he's a one. And so just everything that we do. Oh, yay. Love it.

[Bo Hansen]

He's a three.

[Anna]

Okay, nice. Nice. I mean, everything. A lot of things motivated for me are like, experience based and having fun. And I value those things a lot. And yeah, he definitely likes those things. I will give him credit, but he's just doesn't value them as much as I do, I think. And so I'm viewing things usually out of the lens of like, how can we enjoy our lives? How can we give our kids good experiences? And he's like, how can we be smart and safe?

[Luke]

I just, I'm thinking about the future,

[Anna]

I think too, like, taking care of young kids. It's like, I don't really have a lot of mental energy to give to the future. I'm like, I'm just trying to in the right now, you know? Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

Does it create attention with you? Like, how do you. How do you have the conversations around? I mean, like, is there tension or do y' all have like these like, hey, financial meetings that we're gonna go? Like, how do you guys do it as a couple?

[Luke]

I would. It's been one of the biggest sources of conflict in our marriage since we got married. Yeah, I say that and it's gotten better. And I'd say even in the last year, it's gotten A lot better. Not just for that reason, for other reason. We've done some, some marital counseling like multiple times throughout our marriage. That's, that's helped there too. We've also just in the last year put in some better rhythms into our months and weeks, like doing some quarterly planning as a family and then having some weekly team meetings where one of the things we're going through is money. Because my tendency prior to that would be like, every day when I saw something that I didn't know what it was for, I'm asking about it like, hey, what was this?

[Brian Preston]

I gotta believe that went really well. It didn't every single charge, right? Yeah.

[Bo Hansen]

Well, lean into that because that's what I was curious. I was immediate immediately. Go ask if you have a difference. There is. There. Are you building some, some collaborative moments where like we do skip days with our spouses where we go and basically take the day, go over the net worth statement, talk about the trips we want to do for the year, talk about goals for the year. Go look at what we did planned last year. Are y', all, are y' all creating those checkpoints so it doesn't seem like the wizard of Oz where, you know, Anna's having to come and, and ask Oz, what is the, the plan? Or are y' all doing this where you're kind of united front?

[Luke]

Yeah, I. We' where even this weekend before we came in and recorded with you guys, one of the things we did was kind of have kind of our annual like marriage check in planning. We didn't get into the nitty gritty of the numbers during that because we're going to kind of do that today some. But yeah, we're having that weekly meeting and then quarterly we're sitting down and planning like, hey, what are the things we're going to do this quarter with each other, with our kids and then like, what's the vacation we're going to take with our family this year? So yeah, we're getting better there. I think doing something annually financially would probably be maybe a next step to add to that, where we're really checking in on something.

[Bo Hansen]

Do you feel like y' all are checking in to make sure it's a collaborative experience?

[Anna]

Yeah, it's definitely gotten better. I think. I don't enjoy being micromanaged and being told what to do. And his personality is like, he just wants to know information. And so sometimes that comes across to me as like, you're just trying to control me and you're trying to tell me what to do. I think in the past, you know, it brings up some anxiety for him not knowing, like, what expenses are, what that can come across as like, what are you doing? And, like, anger. Almost like, why did you spend this? You know? And then it's like accusatory more where it's like, okay, so I just can't spend any money ever. You know, that's what it kind of has felt like in the past, where even, like within the last maybe three months, we started that kind of meeting every week. And that's helpful for me because then he'll just look at the expenses and be like, okay, well, did you buy from Target? And like, where does it need to go? As opposed to, you know, like, when it's every day, I'm like, I can't do this. Like, I can't. This is way too micromanaging. And I.

[Luke]

Yes, it was.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Bo Hansen]

If I asked you if, like, what are you all saving as a couple? Do you have an idea of what you are saving as, like a percentage of yalls income or monthly?

[Anna]

We're not really saving that much. Most of our expenses are going. I mean, except for investments.

[Luke]

Yeah, most of our investments. You're asking that as well? Like, what are we investing?

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah. Because I want to know. Because the reason I ask this is that I have. We've been doing this for. I've been doing it longer than everybody because I'm getting older, unfortunately. But I have. I have a gentleman that I gave count. He's now a client of the firm, but at the time, he was just in a Bible study with me. And there was some issues where his. And they were older than you guys are. But it was that, you know, they set this ground rules where every expense he was put. I can't remember if it was Quicken or some tracking software. And after you do this for 20 years of marriage, his spouse was like, what are we doing? You know? You know, I feel like I give you every receipt. Whereas I tried to work with, hey, why don't we set goals so that we can know what we're all saving for in a collaborative way. But then after we know that we've set it and forget it, not autopilot with it, all the accountability kind of goes away. That's why I like. I love budgeting when you're in the beginning of developing good habits. But I like kind of transitioning to a cash management plan where we set our goals and pay ourselves first. And then that way it frees you up to just spend what you want with what's left over because you know you've already done the heavy lift on the front end. It's hard to, it's easier to say this, but in the messy middle, I know every dollar is going to have a name or a goal tied to it. But still, if you can start doing those behaviors, it at least helps you to know that there is a point that this is going to break free. If I can grin and bear it through this part. Because right now you're probably saying, if this is what I've got to do for the next 50 years of life, this is going to be overwhelming. But if you knew that this was over the next five years, if we reach these success goals, hallelujah, we're going to be. I'm going to be able to not feel like I have to track everything. I think y' all will see it actually serves everybody's best interest to kind of have that.

[Anna]

I don't, I don't want this to sound rude. I don't know if there will ever be a time in our marriage where he won't track things because of just his personality. It's pretty meticulous. But he does have like categories for every single dollar that we spend. And that bugs me so much because, you know, I'm like a free spirit and I'm like, there's just not a category for everything. There's a kid birthday party that's going to pop up and we're going to have to spend 25 bucks on a present. And like I'm not going to go to the kid birthday party empty handed, you know, so I don't, I don't know.

[Bo Hansen]

This is where a financial planner comes in. A lot of people think financial planners tell everybody just no, we play the old, you know, Susie Orman where she, you know, Kaid collars in and no, you don't get to go on vacation. No, you don't get to buy that car. We're actually the exact opposite.

[Brian Preston]

It.

[Bo Hansen]

I feel like we are the. Because we are also super financially minded but we also come at this from, we need both spouses to be happy. I feel like a lot of my job is to advocate for the non financial spouse. If I know the analytics are lining up so that I can knock around the analytical spouse and say, what are you doing? You can't take it with you. So let's make sure we're maximizing. So this is a lot of people. We're not therapists by any shape of the imagination, but we do know the human psychology of Relationships and money and the analytics that I think that in a lot of ways we do fill a void for a lot of couples is because we advocate to go do more, which a lot of couples need because all through society we're told, save, save, save. Where's the consumption come in? You know, and now we live in a society where the 90% of the public, all they do is consume and nobody saves. But for responsible financial, mutant minded people, we need help on the other side of it. And you probably resemble that or recognize that in yourself.

[Luke]

And I would say that in the last year even I, I have made an intentional shift there too of hey, we need to allocate more money on a monthly basis towards us having date nights, us doing fun thing with our kids, we need to take a chunk of money and we need to put it towards family vacations. I know that often we both feel like we wish we had more for some of these fun things. I'm the one that manages the finances and you've said to me like that's not something she wants to do either and that's fine. But I know that I need and I have some good friends and other voices too in my life that remind me of exactly what you're saying. Like, hey, you need to recognize that your wife is not like you. And you also need to not just be frugal frank your whole life and miss out on enjoying experiences with her and my kids, etc.

[Brian Preston]

So let's talk about where you guys are presently because it's actually a pretty, it's a pretty good picture, right? Remind us how old each one of you are.

[Anna]

I'm 30.

[Brian Preston]

30.

[Luke]

And I am about to turn 30.

[Brian Preston]

So we're both two 30 year olds and as we sit here right now, you have a total net worth of $342,000. That in and of itself is like a reason to pause and celebrate because that's pretty awesome. I think there are a lot of 30 year olds out there. Like, holy cow, I wish that's what my net worth statement looked like. And you can see that on cash you have just under $40,000. You have liquid investments just over 106,000. And then you have a house that you have a bunch of equity in. $380,000 house, your mortgage is only 183. I'm assuming this is the one that was bought in 2019, right? That, that helps. That certainly helps build a net worth statement. So as it stands right now, you guys are in a pretty solid financial place. Do you feel that way, or do you feel like you're behind the curve?

[Anna]

Well, I think just for the context of what Luke said earlier, it's hard for me because I'm comparing myself to friends who worked for seven years, and they saved bunches of money, and they have these nice houses and new cars and all of this stuff, and it's like, well, we're just not there. And I know that. I'm not saying, like, I'm just living my life out of comparison or anything, but it's like, oh, it would be nice. We have three kids, and I have a Toyota Highlander, which, like, it works. It fits all of our three kids. But I'm like, it would be nice

[Brian Preston]

to have a new car, like a mini minivan. I do this all the time.

[Bo Hansen]

What do you want? We live this life.

[Brian Preston]

We live this life.

[Bo Hansen]

I want to hear what you want. What do you want?

[Brian Preston]

Highlanders are.

[Anna]

Luke just. Well, it's a 2011. It's, like, not. Not new, but Luke just bought a minivan, and it's green. It is a green minivan out of all the colors.

[Brian Preston]

Yeah, but it'll be so easy to find in the parking lot, right?

[Anna]

That's the goal. Our kids love it. So whatever.

[Luke]

I told her she never has to drive it. I need.

[Bo Hansen]

Not going down suv, right?

[Anna]

Yeah, I would love an suv.

[Bo Hansen]

I mean, domestic or European?

[Anna]

I don't.

[Bo Hansen]

Or Japanese.

[Anna]

I've been looking at Nissan Armadas. I like those. Just something a little bigger. I don't want, like, a ginormous one, and I don't even want, like, a 2026, like, brand new. I just want apple carplay. That's like, literally. I'm like, I just want apple carplay, please. But anyway, all that to say, I think it's hard for me sometimes when I'm like, these people are exact same age. They have kids around our age, and maybe even they had kids at the same time as us, and they're just choosing to use their money in different ways. And they have all these, like, really nice Crate and barrel house stuff and, you know, brand new cars. And so that can feel hard for me sometimes of, like, oh, man. Like, we're just. I think sometimes we're still functioning out of that, like, grind mindset of, like, we just have to get the cheapest things all the time. And Luke also just doesn't value at all having nice things, which is like, that's fine. He values other things. But, like, I don't know. Just a silly example. The towels that we got for our wedding they're almost nine years old and we still use them. And like, he's like, well, we don't have money for towels. And I'm like, but we could find money for towels. But just things like that where it's like he doesn't value that. He's like, the towels still work. I'm like, they have holes in them. So it's just. Yeah, there's just different, I think, things that we think are important.

[Brian Preston]

If I were to ask each of you, hey, just tell me like, your top three financial goals, like, I don't want to leave it that open ended. And if I. Let's start with you. If I say, hey, money is nothing more than a tool that allows us to accomplish the goals that we have. Right. It's not a goal in and of itself. It's not this big. It's literally just a tool. So when you think about what money could do for you and your family and your household, you think about your top financial goals. What would those be?

[Anna]

I would say number one for me is experiences. So just taking vacations with our family

[Brian Preston]

and experiences today, not like tomorrow experiences, like stuff we can do. Create memories for the kids today.

[Anna]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And just consistently being able to take them and show them the world, I think that's really valuable. I think also, yeah, we've talked about this this weekend. Even just giving is really important to us. Just being able to serve people with our time and our money and help other people. We obviously don't want to be just completely selfish with what we've been given. So. Yeah, I don't know. Experiences are just like such a high priority for me. So like, even if that includes like things with friends, like eating out or, you know, going to a concert or just those kind of things where it's like we're connecting with other people and we're doing something together in these goals.

[Brian Preston]

And I'm not picking it out because I'm generally. This is a very familiar conversation that I've had in my marriage with.

[Bo Hansen]

We resemble this.

[Brian Preston]

This is such a comfortable and familiar place. But I didn't hear in there like towels, home decor.

[Anna]

Yeah. New car.

[Brian Preston]

So did you just not say it? Are those not really goals? It's like, those are nice to haves, but not.

[Bo Hansen]

How were you nervous to say it?

[Anna]

I do value like home things, but I think I just, in our nine years, I have like for maybe a year been allotted a budget for home things. So it's like, it's just not even like in my mind it's like, oh, we just don't have money for that. Or it's gonna be met with like, well, that's not a need. This is a big point of frustration. And please, like, give us some advice on this, because this conversation comes up maybe once every six months. And he has different opinions of what a need versus a want is. And he is very much like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, our needs are food, water, shelter, and like, that is what we need. And I'm like, okay, but also we need things to take care of us, like towels to dry off from the shower. And he's like, well, we don't need that because they still work or they still function. So that's a frustrating, I think, argument that we get in frequently. It's like, okay, just because you don't consider it a need doesn't mean that we don't actually need it.

[Brian Preston]

My wife and I, we've married for a long time now, and that was our struggle early on. The things that were valuable to her were not valuable to me, and the things that I put a lot of value on. She didn't put value on it, but she didn't think about it the same way that I did. And I had a lot of learning to do that just because I thought, you know, just because I was perfectly fine eating this and sleeping on this and wearing this did not mean that it was appropriate for her to be okay with that. And so I had to. There was some tension there that I had to, like, figure out. But before we get into that, I want to hear your goals. So we kind of heard. I really got two from you.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

Experiences and then giving, serving others, then time with friends. And that's what I got.

[Bo Hansen]

But there was. There was a kind of a third is that. I think it's just the unspoken one is that to feel heard in the budget of the needs versus wants.

[Luke]

I'll talk about the sinking funds on the budget category because that really ties into it. In December, January, we had some. We had some of the most productive money conversations we've ever had in our marriage where we said, okay, what are our big goals for the next five years? The first one is that we want to be able to either move or build a house in roughly five years. That's about the time our oldest is going to be that middle school, junior high age. And we really want to have a home that our kids and our kids friends want to be at. That's something that's important to us. We both experience that as kids. And we just like, we have a good home right now. It's three bed, two bath, 2,000 square feet. We've got three kids. Like it's getting full. And so we'd love to have a home that, yeah, accommodates a lifestyle that I think we both would really value as our kids get older.

[Brian Preston]

Can we assign a number to that?

[Luke]

Yeah, we put a hundred thousand for it.

[Brian Preston]

But the price of the home.

[Luke]

The price of home.

[Brian Preston]

So you said right now three to where you're at right now getting a little small. What would be the price of a home in your area that would be comfortable?

[Luke]

I would say somewhere between 550 and 650.

[Anna]

Yeah, we're not looking for anything ginormous, but just bigger, you know, gathering spaces so that people can hang out.

[Luke]

So that was one of our big goals and we, we kind of put down some like, hey, how much cash do we think we need, want to save to move towards those things? We put 100,000 for that in the next five years.

[Brian Preston]

Is that what the sinking fund is?

[Luke]

That's starting to go towards that. And then there's two others that are more near term. That one's like, hey, five years from now, we want to have that ready to go. We want to be moved or build a house. The most near term one is upgrade her car. And then the second one, In September of 2027, we want to take a trip to Italy for our 10 year anniversary. That's September of 2727.

[Anna]

Our anniversary's in June, but he does camps in the summer so we're gonna do it in the fall.

[Brian Preston]

Can you give me a price tag for like what will an Italian vacation? And is this just the two of you or is this whole family just two of you?

[Luke]

I want to have 10 grand for it.

[Brian Preston]

See, I loved it. I love that you guys have already talked about this and this is like a thing that you kind of have put down to work towards. Now you said upgrade the car. Were you thinking like an Odyssey or like a motor?

[Bo Hansen]

I was just double checking.

[Brian Preston]

I was making sure that the minivan wasn't back on there. So like a Nissan Armada something?

[Anna]

Yeah, something in that realm. Yeah.

[Luke]

We would sell her Highlander and put that towards it. So I think we had put down saving somewhere between 20 and 25.

[Brian Preston]

I've got timeline for five years for the new home. Italy is going to be in September 27th. What's the timeline on the new car? Sort of like in sort of.

[Anna]

I would love it to be soon, but I Don't.

[Bo Hansen]

I mean this is what makes personal finance very personal, is that it was so interesting as I see the path forward. But I'm trying to figure out if y' all have the right structure to do what needs to be done. And let me, let me explain. What I mean by this is that you've heard us talk about put on your 3D glasses, you've got some big life decisions because you're trying to figure out if you're gonna go full time even with your side gig, turning it into a full time gig. And I could tell, I mean what's interesting is that Luke, as you're sharing with us, I could see the passion and the excitement about what you do. Yeah. That there's a chance that this thing could become your main job. But that's why you have to do the 3D glasses plan. Just to bring you up to speed, what this means is you actually write out your life plan or business plan with your dream. Oh my gosh. This thing hit everything I thought it would do. It's hit financially fulfillment. We bought the armada we've got. You know, that's the dream. You have the down to earth plan of what really will happen because it's not going to be the dream plan. It's probably going to have some hiccups and some other troubles. Then you have the doo doo plan is that you go full time with this but it goes horribly wrong. So that's. And it's going to take. I'll just go ahead and tell you because I've gone on this journey of entrepreneurship. It's going to take three years to probably get this thing to where it's back to what you were making beforehand. So you have to give it enough nutrition through cash and savings to get it through that that season. But what's in conflict with this goal will be the house upgrade because I mean when I looked at Yalls notes I immediately saw we have a house that's worth close to 400 and yalls mortgage rate is what, 3.25? 3.25.

[Luke]

3.5, I guess.

[Bo Hansen]

And I know it's too small of a house for what you need, but man oh man, the debt. I mean because Yalls monthly payments are like fifteen hundred dollars a month.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Luke]

That actually went down because I.

[Anna]

It's cheap.

[Luke]

Yeah. I got different homeowners insurance.

[Bo Hansen]

So that is a blessing. While you're starting the entreprene because it's your footprint on drawdown is so small the paid for cars. That is a blessing. While you're trying to nurture this business as much as possible, but it's completely working against all the things that was on the other side, you know, y' all said was happiness. So that's why it's such a conflict in the fact that you almost have to. That's why you have to be a united front. Is that oh my gosh, we're go all hands on deck for. Because y' all don't have debt issues but you've got life battles that are just as bad as having debt issues. Is that we've got to kind of come up with a three to five year plan that we're going to be in this thing in the weeds with it together and united. But if it hits all that, that looking at my neighbors and seeing what they have and I don't have. If it hit it would be that because it'd be the engine, the economic engine. Because right now the way you make your money, you know, your job, it's going to have limits. But if you could make this thing passion work, you've now upgraded the engine. Instead of having a four cylinder, maybe now you have a V8. You know. And that's the thing I always tell people because realize I was a 16 year old kid that had the 12 inch woofers and the rims and the louvers, all those accoutrements, you know, of life that you're putting on of the nice car and that stuff that is the hubcaps and that's the accessories of life. But we got to get the engine right first. And y' all are so young. But it doesn't. What makes it hard is the kids and all the other stuff. That's why the plan has to be united so that y' all don't. It doesn't break down. And you feel your voice is heard too because we live this life. By the way, you're not doing anything wrong. I'll pick on Luke is that we got to have the plan so that y' all feel united in this thing and then that way you don't look at your neighbors because by the way I'll go ahead and insulate you. Most of your neighbors either. What you never know is you never know who comes from some money, who's getting support family wise and you never know who's just faking it until they make it with so much debt. I mean because that's the thing I've. All through my life I've noticed as I'm going through in the same season you're in we tried to set up parameters of pay ourselves first and do these things. You'll get to be in your mid-40s before you really get to see between the seams of who actually has it and who doesn't have it. Because you can fake a lot with debt, and you'll quickly realize. And that's why I would challenge you to kind of look in your inner self to figure out what is happiness and what is peace and then take away. Just don't let the noise bother you. As long as the plan is letting y' all feel like y' all are working through something.

[Brian Preston]

When he lays out sort of the. The trade off and the risk and reward of, like, going out on your own doing this camp thing full time versus not give us. How do you hear that? Like, what. Like, what have you guys been thinking in terms of, like, turning this side gig into the main gig?

[Luke]

It's the reason I, like, kind of worked myself to the bone for a couple years. Like, I'll do whatever I have to do to make sure my family's taken care of first. So, like, if I've got to stay in the W2 for five more years, 10 more years, like, okay, I'll do it. It wouldn't be my preference. I'd love. We all want to do work that we love with our time and work that turns the economic flywheel. I would love in the next two to three years, which I think is a fairly realistic plan, to be able to take the leap and do the camps full time.

[Brian Preston]

Are you saying that you think that in the next two to three years, the camps would be able to replace.

[Luke]

I think you'd be able to replace almost all, if not all of it. What it didn't replace. I can make up the rest of it during the school year when I have a lot more time margin in my schedule.

[Bo Hansen]

And is this a long term. This isn't something that would go away in five years.

[Luke]

This is like, I'm doing this for the next 30 years.

[Bo Hansen]

Okay.

[Brian Preston]

I love it. Is taking the leap as it relates to the. To the. To the side hustle. Right? Like, so you got your W2 income. You have your side hustle income. Are you saying, like, in two to three years, you think you will have built up the side thing so that when you take the quote unquote leap, you're not having to take a big pay cut or.

[Luke]

Correct. Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

Okay. So it's. It's likely that you could just maintain standard of living even if you make this transition. It's not like you're. You will know in two to three years if it has reached the point to where it could be the main job.

[Luke]

Yes.

[Brian Preston]

It's not like there's a. A risk where you're all right, I'm gonna go to my own and hope it works.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

You have kind of already built it

[Luke]

at that point, right? Yes, exactly. And I would say a couple things there in addition. One, as our kids are getting older, we think we're done having kids. She's wanting to work more as well. And so I think the income she's generating is going to continue to increase more than likely.

[Anna]

I do work part time. Right now I have a part time marketing job and then I have a spray tan business that I run out of our house. And then so I'm doing some like little side gig things.

[Bo Hansen]

And I do enjoy working with three littles too. So kudos to you.

[Anna]

I like being busy. I do it to myself.

[Luke]

She works hard, you know that.

[Anna]

Seven life. You gotta fill your time, you know.

[Luke]

And so like right now, even in just like our monthly budgeting, the owner compensation from the business that's operating sports camps, like we've never lived off of any of that. That's gone towards those future goals essentially. And so like after this summer, I'm gonna have a really good idea of like, okay, what was I able to compensate myself from that? And then restarting the cycle again for the next year and projecting. I project like very down to earth growth and I'm very conservative with my projections.

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah, but it sounds like this camp almost is going to double in a year based upon how well things have gone.

[Brian Preston]

Yeah.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Bo Hansen]

That's pretty normal. I would tell you to plan conservatively, but you will be really surprised if things hit the exponential. Opportunities can. Can be much bigger than. But go conservative. Yes, I did want to put Ann on the spot because you gave us some goals with the car. I know there's a house sitting out there. If Luke did a better job of saying, look, the next three years are going to be tough, but, you know, but we're going to prioritize is Italy. Because I think it is. I think I would put that at the top. I'd put that because that's a life experience. That'll be something that you could go ahead and if you. I don't know if you. In my book, in 2002, right as we were before, right before we had our first child, my wife and I went to Italy and we did it so cheap though we didn't. We rode. We rode in the back of the plane, you know, and we, but. And we, you know, didn't do all the guided tours that we wanted to. But it still was incredible because you get all the experience, you get all the visuals, you get all the stuff.

[Anna]

Yeah.

[Bo Hansen]

So you don't have to. 10,000 didn't sound crazy to me because I mean I fast forward and take through inflation what we spent. That's not that bad.

[Luke]

She studied abroad there and so we. Yeah, I really want to go back. I said 10 and she was like, that seems high. And I was like, I'm not going to go unless I know I have the money to make it a really awesome experience for it. Like that sounds you And Luke came

[Bo Hansen]

up with a plan that he was going to really go for it to try to create a better engine of economic engine for the family. But y' all prioritize this, this 10 year goal. Could you find yourself deferring on the car and the house stuff just a little bit longer if you knew that there was a time certain that this thing was coming to a maturity?

[Anna]

What do you mean?

[Bo Hansen]

I'll tell you, maybe it's easier if I just do an experience share. I told my wife that if she could go on this journey that we were going to live really tight through our 30s. But in the four we would go prioritize some key things that she had. But in the 40s, if we did this today, did some deferred gratification in our 40s we'd go. We'd go wide open on the life stuff. And it's. And it worked out, I mean because now I had to officially. Okay. I was on a trip this weekend with some high school friends and they're like, are you still a tightwad? You know, because I was the kid with the coupons and everything and I was like, no. They came and ripped the tightwad card out of my back pocket because of. Of how lifestyle has expanded and that's what. But you don't have to. It's not faking it. It's actually you're now living your best life because of some of the fruits from the early. But. And that's why I just want to make sure. Because what I worry is you guys have some cracks in the foundation. If we don't nurture this now, it could get ugly later. But. And I want to make sure you feel heard but also on board with the game plan.

[Anna]

I think I just feel a little pigeonholed sometimes about we're just going to have to Keep saving forever. Like, there's just never an end date of, like, now we can spend what we've saved. You know, it just feels very. Like it's always serious and it's never fun. And those things really, really, like, wear down on me, you know, because I'm. I like to have fun and I like to have good experiences. And so when it's met with that, I think I'm kind of just like, I feel a little exhausted. I'm like, okay, all right, I guess we'll just keep doing this. And so it probably would be helpful to have an end date in mind. I. I would really like a new car soon. I don't need it, especially in, you know, definition with Luke's need definition. But I think there's a lot of, you know, just in our world right now, like, there's a lot of narratives about, yeah, you. Once you have a second kid, you need a ginormous car, or once you have this, you need this thing. And I'm not. I'm not functioning out of that necessarily. But I think these updates just feel like, okay, like we. We will someday get to have newer, nicer things. And sometimes I just feel defeated because I think it feels like, okay, we're never. We're never going to get to that

[Bo Hansen]

spot, you know, And I can tell you're getting. I mean, and I love it because I feel like we're getting somewhere. We keep talking about the big stuff, you know, the cars, the house. But it sounds like there's probably a bunch of. Because we've already talked about the towels. I mean, towels. There's some little things. It sounds like if. And Luke, I'm going to put it on you. We could create some wins for Anna in a little way. And y' all think. Because y' all throwing out a lot, whether it's eating out, we just need to put a dollar amount on it and figure out that way and that we know we can put a number around what Anna needs to feel loved, heard, and appreciated and still. And if. And then still have the plan to build in the background. Because that is the hard part is the financial mutant is you're trying to. To do this, but you're going to lose the other side of it if we can't make sure that you're feeling heard through this journey. Because both of y' all are noble in what you're trying to do. It's just. It's. This is what makes it hard in a relationship is navigates because money is tight.

[Brian Preston]

Can you walk Me through your current savings. Right. Like, when you think about these buckets, not the budget necessarily, but, like, what's the money that right now you're putting in the different savings buckets for the Future?

[Luke]

Yeah. My W2, I put 6% into a Roth 401K and they match 4%. That's great. And then maxing out our HSA. We've been maxing out our HSA for, like, the last seven years, but we've been having kids, and so we've been using it.

[Bo Hansen]

That's great.

[Luke]

This is the last 12 months again, is the first time where we've gotten ahead with HSA. And now, like, roughly 10,000 of that is invested.

[Brian Preston]

Awesome.

[Luke]

And then there's 100 bucks a month just going into that emergency fund.

[Brian Preston]

Into the sinking fund?

[Luke]

No, into the emergency fund account.

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah. How about the Roth IRAs? Because I noticed Anna's, by the way, was bigger, which I was like, man, so you're obviously prioritizing her.

[Luke]

So. And this is her. Her parents were really generous, and they had a custodial Roth for her that they. I love hearing that. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. They passed that on to her a handful of years ago. And then my Roth and her Roth also. So when we left teaching, I took our teacher retirements and rolled them into Roth. I just bit the bullet and paid the taxes on them.

[Brian Preston]

Okay.

[Luke]

And rolled them into those Roth accounts. So that's where those dollars have come from. We just like, if I might go back to teaching coaching someday, but if I do, it won't be because that's.

[Bo Hansen]

So there's no automatic funding in the Roths. Currently.

[Luke]

There is in the Roth 401K.

[Bo Hansen]

Okay.

[Luke]

That's coming from my paycheck. Yeah. Correct.

[Bo Hansen]

Awesome.

[Brian Preston]

So 10% of the 401k and we're maxing out the HSA. We have 100 bucks. Bucks a month going in the emergency fund.

[Luke]

Perfect. Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

On a month over month basis. Is there money left over? Like, is there any, like, sort of like slush money left over? Is it like. No, we are. We are. We are dead at zero.

[Luke]

Not really a lot left over. I mean, what we're budgeting is, is usually going out every month. Occasionally there might be a little bit, and we decide, hey, you know, we have some extra here. Where do we want to put it? But yeah, most of the time, how much of that.

[Bo Hansen]

That Roth IRA was. Yalls contributions versus the custodial portion, it's worth 52,000 right now.

[Luke]

I have to look back. I want to say her teacher retirement was roughly like 20k that got rolled into there. And then I think when they gave it to her were like, hey, this has been set aside for you and transferred it into her name. I want to say there was maybe like 16.

[Bo Hansen]

The reason. Because when I did the math on the. You guys, you know, we always try to save around 30. We'd love for you to be at one time income.

[Anna]

And.

[Bo Hansen]

And y' all were in the round a little over 140,000, you know, if you take out the house equity. So I was like, wow, they're actually ahead of the curve. I just wanted to know how much of that was behavior versus what was brought into the marriage, because then that could work against. But because I know it's just tight right now. And that's why I'm just trying to figure out where the margin in Yalls life is.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

And so on these budgeting categories you have, you've got 250 for entertainment and 650 for miscellaneous. Is this where the birthday presents come out of? I just wonder, like, I'm trying to understand, like, categorically.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Brian Preston]

How do you guys decide what the categories are together and how much goes into those categories? Or. Or do you decide?

[Luke]

Yeah, I'll say. And I. I was talking with one of your guys as they were putting this together as review unit. That miscellaneous category is like, a lot of things that we know we're gonna spend, but it fluctuates month to month. So it's like home and auto maintenance, it's gifts, it's Christmas, It's.

[Anna]

Which we don't spend out of home and auto maintenance or Christmas until it's like, absolutely. Like.

[Luke]

Yeah, they're just.

[Anna]

It's not like it's there.

[Luke]

They're kind of mini sinking funds where they're going into a separate checking account. And we know actually, like, how many dollars we have for those various things that. Was that your question?

[Brian Preston]

I think so, yeah. I'm just trying to figure out, like, when I'm gonna use the birthday present example. When. When there's a kid's birthday present, you gotta go buy a gift budgetarily in your mind. Where is that supposed to come out of?

[Luke]

There's. There's like a. There's a checking account that has gifts on it. And, like, 110 bucks goes in there every month. She's got like a real time view. And like, this is how much money we have for gifts in this account.

[Brian Preston]

Do you actually. Do you use the view or is it just set up there?

[Anna]

I mean, it's just our banking account that I log into. Got it.

[Brian Preston]

And so you actually can see it and that sort of thing. Do you like that structure? What I'm trying to figure out is, is it the structure that's not good or the amounts that are not good?

[Anna]

Yes, it's very rigid, but that is. I mean, I love my husband. I think it's good that he likes systems and he likes to have things in place. I am just not that way. And so I am type B as they come and I'm late to everything and he's 10 minutes early. So it's just, you know, like we're just opposite. So I don't think it's like I have an issue with the system. I just kind of have an issue with sometimes how rigid he is with it where it's like, there's a hundred dollars in there. You already spent $70 on our kids birthdays. You can't get another gift. Like we don't have any other money. We can't flex at all. And that just. Yeah, that's like, okay. It just feels exhausting. I'm like, okay, why can't we flex? You know? And that's what we run into. Like a lot of months, even just with groceries and things like that, where it's like, yeah, maybe I'm making something for a party we're going to and I need to grab a couple extra groceries. And it's like, well, we don't have any extra grocery money, so sorry. And it's like, okay. It just feels, yeah, it feels really rigid and I don't like that. But I just don't know. I don't know what necessarily could be changed. Like he said, like, I'm not. Numbers are not my thing. And I am thankful that he does it. I'm thankful that he is owning it. I think in some ways there's become like this unintentional, like power authority because he owns it. It's like, well, I do this and you don't want to do it, so I'm just gonna keep doing it the way that I want to do it. And I wouldn't say that that's like 100%. He wants me to have opinions in it and he wants me to have a voice in it. I know he does, but just because of how systematic he is and how we have to have a system for everything, it often feels like it's like, well, his way or we're just not doing it.

[Bo Hansen]

I'm sitting here because, you know, there's different systems. You know, Dave Ramsey has, like. Was it the envelope system? There is. And it sounds like you've kind of just corded off in your accounts now and banks allow you to go essentially set up funds.

[Luke]

We've got, like, you probably call it like a digital envelope system. There's a bunch of different checking accounts. Money is going into different accounts.

[Bo Hansen]

What I'm trying to figure out is what we can do to empower Anna to feel like she's part of this. I didn't know if it was just you give her the spending money in just straight up cash, and if it's gone, it's gone. There's got to be something we can do to empower you on this. Y' all are doing a lot of the right things. Is that y' all have this joint account. But it sounds like the rigidness of the digital envelope system is. So we've got to figure. And now it's. I'm going to put it on you. Is that you have to figure out what system will actually make you feel empowered. Is if it's getting a monthly budget to where, you know, when he just gives you the money and you're now the CEO of the household money. And if it runs out, it runs out, and there's just nothing we can do. You can then squeeze the balloon however you want. And I can already tell from Luke, you're not trying to lord over anybody. It's just you're trying to have you see the big picture. So that's why we have to create a system to where y' all both feel once again connected on this.

[Luke]

Yeah. And that's honestly, like, that was kind of my goal and intention of even just kind of like the digital envelope system and various checking accounts. Like, hey, don't. You don't have to ask me. Like, go check and see how much money is in that category. And if it's there, spend it. And then we'll check in on a weekly basis.

[Bo Hansen]

But her brain might not work that way.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Bo Hansen]

And because we see categories. I know how your brain works. Because we all see categories. Hers. That's why sometimes giving the whole budget without the. Without the line so she can paint outside. Now she'd go get her own lesson. When the fact that if the money's out, out when it's out and that.

[Luke]

And that's probably where there's been frustration on my side. It's like, hey, we're out of this category. Or you exceeded what we have for this category there without like a proactive conversation about, hey, we need more for this thing this month. Because when it's proactive and we're communicating well with each other, it's like, okay, like, we can flex. We can figure it out. We can usually make it work. I think that's where we both feel missed at times. She feels like this is micromanagey. I feel like, hey, these are kind of the boundaries that we have. And if we need to color outside the lines, I just want to have a conversation about that first so that it's not like, oh, we blew by how much gift money we had significantly. That's kind of where I come at it from.

[Bo Hansen]

But how does that sound to you?

[Anna]

And I want to make sure you feel valid. I think. Yeah, just we have different communication styles, too. Like, where I think he feels better about something if we talk about it three or four times. And I'm like, I don't even really want to talk about it, but I will talk about it once. And then if I make a decision after we talk about it once, I think he sometimes feels missed. Like, we didn't really decide about that. And I'm like, oh, but we talked about it, you know? So it's just. It's just those kind of differences, too. Can, like, rub me the wrong way. Where it's like, I don't need to talk about it four times to make a decision. Like, I'm just gonna go do this. And I think he feels better if we're like, not four. Four is probably a little much, but at least two times, like, hey, we're checking in on this again. And to me, that just feels like a lot. I'm like, okay, I already talked to you about it. And I think that's like, the micromanaging piece of it, too, is like, I don't want to have to feel like I have to come to you and have a conversation every single time we're going to go over. I don't know. It just feels like. Just draining. And money, like, in general, to me, like, having these kind of conversations feels, like, confrontational almost, and, like, a little uncomfortable for me. And so that's where I'm coming from, where it's like, oh, this is exhausting to me. Like, I don't. And I know they're necessary. I'm not saying, like, I'm never gonna have these conversations. I know they're good, and I want to communicate in a healthy way. But, yeah, that's kind of.

[Bo Hansen]

I feel like. And I'm gonna give you look, who knows? How this all goes over. But I think you have three years to. You ought to just go for it and. Meaning y' all come up with a game plan of the things that are a priority list of what's important. So Anna feels heard. And then you said it earlier, is that I'm willing to do whatever it takes to be successful. But. But earlier, you've already experienced where you got busy doing nothing, meaning that you were working 50 hours a week doing coaching and other things, and you weren't. It wasn't until you went and did the project management train job switch that you're like, oh, my gosh, there's a way to work smarter, not harder. And I was able to lift up. You're going to. You need to take the next three years, do the 3D glasses so that you account for the do do plan, and then you got to go make it happen. You gotta. We gotta turn this four cylinder into a V10 so that Anna gets everything she wants, and you just got to do it. I mean, I know that sounds. But as an entrepreneur and others, I think you. I saw you light up when we talked about these.

[Luke]

That's the summer. This summer we're going from.

[Bo Hansen]

So. So that's what I mean.

[Luke]

But.

[Bo Hansen]

But you've got to also. You got to get Anna excited about these savings goals so that you. So that y' all can be a united front on this. And then you just gotta. We gotta get it cranking. That's the way I feel it.

[Brian Preston]

What's. What's your date night? Love language. Like, let me give you an example. My wife. Brunch. Like fancy brunch. Coffee. That sort of. That's her, like, middle of the day. That's her jam. What's like, your date night Love language.

[Anna]

Yeah, I love. I love a good brunch. I love. Honestly just. Yeah. Going out. Margaritas.

[Bo Hansen]

Okay.

[Brian Preston]

Tacos or brunch?

[Anna]

I love it.

[Brian Preston]

So as I'm sitting here hearing you guys talk, it sounds like one of the issues is, hey, we don't communicate really, really well because we have different communication styles. And it sounds like, perhaps even the frequency around the time, like, hey, every week we're gonna check in on this thing. Check in on this thing. Perhaps that's too much now. We don't know the answer. Cause we don't know your marriage. You guys are gonna find that. But I'm wondering if there was something that you both knew was gonna happen. Hey, once a month, first Saturday of the month, whatever. We're gonna go get tacos. And margaritas, or we're gonna go get whatever. And in this date, hey, we're just gonna touch base on these things, right? And this is gonna be a little, like, financial check base. And rather than maybe the spending categories be like, hey, this month is exactly $101 for birthday gifts. It's like, hey, all right, we got this. We're gonna spend 800 bucks on kids, whatever that is. That's kids birthday parties. That's kids activities, whatever that thing is. And you just kind of know broadcasting. Because I'm wondering, if I were to look at your budget, I'm wondering how many different categorical items I'm seeing.

[Luke]

Quite a few.

[Brian Preston]

I'm nervous. Like, if we're. And some people, it's great to budget to the. To the $10, $20, $30. That's great. What I'm hearing you say is that's not working for the marriage right now. Yeah, and that's a big issue because, you know, one of the. I imagine one of the goals on both of your lists is, hey, the thing I don't want money to do is absolutely rip us apart.

[Luke]

Right.

[Brian Preston]

You know what I mean? I want it to be something that we use as a thing that allows us to do things we want to do and not a thing that creates a rift. So what I'm hearing is the system right now is not working in its current form. So we got to figure out how do we adjust that system. And just like I'm thinking frequency sounds like an issue, and perhaps even categorically there's an issue, But Brian already alluded to this. There's some accountability here. If we go from all these different categorical things, like, hey, we're gonna put 800 bucks in this bucket, and this is for the kids and all things kids, if it's a bigger category with a bigger number, then we do have to kind of honor that. It doesn't matter if. Okay, well, this was a birthday party, and this was a school closed thing. Right. Those can all be in the same place. But you do have to, like, kind of honor. That's where the. That's where the. So that way you both kind of get a little bit something. It's way more macro, but it still fits inside the lines. I think one of the things you guys are gonna have to do is sit down and figure out, okay, what actually works for us. Like, and this is a fun exercise to play, and it might end in a fight. So I apologize for this, But I got a dear friend who did this him and his wife, they were fighting over finances. They were going back and forth. And he finally. Now, he did this from, like, a bad spot, but it ended up good. He was like, that's it. You do it. And he's like, you handle the finances now.

[Anna]

Can't tell you how many times he

[Brian Preston]

said that, but I think it's an interesting thought exercise where if you not actually take it over. But, hey, if it was your job to be the financial cfo, how would you structure it? Like, how would you do it? Right? And I don't know what the answer to that question is, but you guys should spend some time just talking about it. And there's no wrong answers to this. One of the things you can't is, well, this is why that won't work. This is why. This is why that. Yeah, say, okay, hey. And you just kind of figure out, right, like, it's not about you convincing her that your way is right. It's you beginning to understand, okay, what works for her, and you beginning to understand why his way is effective. And figuring out where that middle ground is, that's going to be the key to y' all being able to do whatever the goals are. Short term, long term, intermediate. Right now, what I'm feeling is a. Is more of a communication issue than a dollars and cents issue. And that's the part, I think that if y' all can get centered on that, you can do anything. I've got some homework for you guys to do in the meantime as it relates to stepping out on your own. I do think working through the 3D glasses makes sense. Hey, what's it look like? If this goes better than we expect, what do I realistically think is going to happen? And then what's the oh plan? Oh, this doesn't pan out. Something changes. Champs change, whatever that thing is. And then I think the big thing you ought to do, and it's great that you're on a trip right now with no kids, because this is, like, a time to get to do it, have the conversation around. What would actually work for both of you in terms of cadence and category? Hey, how often should we be having these conversations? And realistically, categorically, what should we be talking about? It might not make sense to Talk about the $9 to spend on Q tips. That may not be the thing. It may make sense to talk about a bigger category. And you got to figure out what works for each of you. And you both have to have a voice in that meaning. You have to be willing to share, but you Also have to be willing to listen and willing to hear. I think if you guys can do that, you're going to set yourself up to be in a great spot and then we can play with some numbers and talk about how to actually get the wheels moving in motion. Brian I think one of the biggest surprises when you start a business is realizing you're responsible for everything.

[Bo Hansen]

That's exactly right at the beginning. You're the marketing department, operations, hr, customer service, all of it.

[Brian Preston]

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[Bo Hansen]

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[Bo Hansen]

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[Brian Preston]

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[Bo Hansen]

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[Brian Preston]

Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. Brian I loved the conversation that we had with Luke and Anna, but it wasn't perfect. There was some stuff, I think that just as we had the conversation it reminded me how valuable and important communication in a marriage is.

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah, I mean it's funny because I was sitting here thinking, what do you say Brian? I was like communication. So you saying that word is that I'm worried for him?

[Brian Preston]

Sure.

[Bo Hansen]

I mean because Luke and Anna, I appreciate him coming on the show. I appreciate them being so transparent. But it was very obvious to me in the Beginning part of even the conversation is they're on completely different pages.

[Brian Preston]

That's right.

[Bo Hansen]

And look, and they're both well intentioned. I mean, you got Luke, who's the financial mutant who's trying to be so rigid and reach these goals, start a new business. But then you got Anna who's like, wait a minute, we ought to enjoy some of this money. And then she has some goals and they're dead in the middle of this messy middle. If you think about they got a two year old in the house, they got a seven year old house, they have three kids right now. And this all happens so fast that I'm just worried that if they don't kind of get on the same page with this, they're going to feel isolated and it's going to. Instead of them working off the same sheet music and using the net worth to kind of help shape it, it's going to feel like, you know, we got Luke with his goals and then we got Anna over here trying to live the best life and it's going to feel very separated. And that troubles me.

[Brian Preston]

So from a planning standpoint, we're going to lay out a plan. It's going to look a little bit different than what a normal plan might look like, but at the very, it

[Bo Hansen]

needs to be a bridge.

[Brian Preston]

At the very center of it has to be open communication. Open communication where both people are heard. So to kind of start out, one of the things we uncovered as we were diving in and this is sort of a public service announcement whenever you have young kids in the household. This didn't get to come up in our conversation, but as we followed up with Luke and Anna, we always want to make sure that when you have young kids, you have wills and estate documents in place explaining what your wishes are for your kids as well as life insurance to make sure they're provided for. So there's one that's kind of like a base level planning thing that they just need to talk through. Hey, what happens if something happens to us? Where do we want our kids to go? Do we want to take care of the money? That sort of baseline something that they need to work on. So then we said, okay, well let's think about how the numbers might actually and practically play out for them because they do have big goals. And it became pretty clear that the one thing we know right now is the income that they're operating on right now just isn't working for the household.

[Bo Hansen]

Well, and I think, and the big thing Luke is hoping to go out on his own with these sports camps. Sure. He has said his passion for it, his heart is there. But I gotta tell you, after looking at the numbers and we're gonna Talk about the 3D glasses here, but I got. I think because there's some distress in the household, he doesn't need to leave his day job just yet. He needs to kind of do both. And I know that's probably not what he was hoping to hear. I think he was probably hoping, yeah, let's do the 3D glasses plan. You know, we'll share what that means, but go ahead and plan out a structure to where you can leave your day job. We're like, no, I think you're going to need to keep the W2 job and put on your 3D glasses to work through these basketball camps.

[Brian Preston]

Yeah. And I think it's okay because he still gets to do the camps, the thing he's passionate about. But I think what their family needs, at least for this season, is the opportunity for that higher income. And so we kind of said, all right, let's put on these 3D glasses, and let's say, okay, what's the dream plan? Well, let's say dream plan, between the two sources of income, we get household income up to $200,000. That sounds amazing. That's really scaling sports camps. And then we said, okay, well, what's the down to earth plan? We scale the sports camp some, but we still keep the W2 income in place. That'd be a household income, about 160,000. And then, yeah, I think they're. And this is going to sound aggressive, but I think they're kind of living in the doo doo plan right now. Sort of where they are right now is not the ideal circumstance. They want to have some sort of improvement. And it's always important to run the doo doo plan so you know where the guardrails are. But I think realistically, based on the way he was describing it, based on what he was laying out, I don't think it's crazy to think whether it be through scale in the sports camps or keeping the W2 and the sports camps, I don't think getting his income to $160,000 a year as a household is out of the realm of possibility.

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah, definitely. Because, I mean, we. His day job is already kind of right where the doo doo plan is. And then we're going to count on some growth from these camps. So definitely, 160,000 is probably the number. So now let's break that down in what are the big Goals. And there are definitely some goals that we need to kind of address. The first thing, let's get Anna as soon as possible into a car that she actually feels, you know, comfortable and confident in driving the three kids around.

[Brian Preston]

And I want to give her some credit. She was not like, she wasn't crazy in her. It wasn't like she was wanting some brand new. You know, the biggest thing I heard, Apple CarPlay. She wants Apple CarPlay. That's it.

[Bo Hansen]

They started putting that in majority of vehicles after 2017.

[Brian Preston]

You're right.

[Bo Hansen]

So, I mean, this is not the craziest goal out there.

[Brian Preston]

So she said, hey, something, something, you know, maybe a bigger SUV. Nissan Armada, Apple CarPlay. So, okay, let's make that a goal, and let's try to do that by the end of this year, by the end of 2026. They also said they want to go on a big trip to Italy in September of 2027. And that's probably gonna have a price tag around $10,000. They need it.

[Bo Hansen]

I think that getting them away from the kids and having some time together as a couple to see, hey, what. What is. What's keeping us? What's the glue that makes this work? Let's get them a trip to Italy.

[Brian Preston]

And then they said, hey, we also, we would like to upgrade our home at some point in the next five years. That's a goal. Now, the good news is they have significant equity in their current home. And so we're going to operate under the assumption that whatever equity they have in the current home, they're just going to roll it into the new home. And so when we think about, like, a price for a home that would be appropriate in their area for their size family, we set a home price of $600,000. That's going to be kind of the thing that we're going to work towards. So let's think about if we have these three goals, how do we begin to, like, parse out how we do that? And so, you know, step one, get the household income up to 160,000. Keep the W2 job, scale the income. Well, if they do that, that's going to give them an additional $2,300 a month to work with. So we got to figure out with that additional $2,300 margin, where does it go? Well, if goal number one is the car, we said, okay, step number one, let's sell the current car, and we're going to net about $5,000 from that, right? Well, if we could allocate an additional $10,000 from the sinking fund right now that's going to give us $15,000 towards a new vehicle. Anna said, okay, I want to be in the Nissan Armada with CarPlay. So if we say it's going to be a $25,000 car, we would need about an extra $1,250 every month for the next eight months to be able to just pay cash for it. So no car payment. No, 23, 8 pay cash. Okay, so eight month timeline to get to paid for car. Goal number one. Check.

[Bo Hansen]

All right, so we still have some extra margin of that $2,300. Let's start talking about what does that mean on getting this couple to Italy.

[Brian Preston]

Yep. So we said, all right, we have this, we already have the sinking fund that they've been saving for. So what if we take $5,000 of the sinking fund and we know we need to get 10,000. So that's just going to require us to save $313 per month for the next 16 months. If we can do that for a year and four months, that's going to get us to $10,000 for the Italy trip and it's going to get us there by 2027. So boom, check. There's the next one. So that's two goals knocked out without a whole lot of difficulty. Right. Like not, not super crazy. So then we said, okay, how do we get in the new home? Now this is the hard one.

[Bo Hansen]

This is gonna take some time.

[Brian Preston]

Yeah. And it's gonna be really difficult to know what their house is gonna sell for, where interest rates are gonna be. But what we do know is they do have a lot of equity in their current house. They currently have $200,000 in equity. And in eight months once they pay off the car, and in 16 months, once they pay off the Italy vacation, they're gonna have additional cash flow. They're gonna be able to save for the next five years working towards this home. So if we just assume $200,000 in equity five years from now, plus the additional savings, very conservatively, I think they could have about $278,000 that they could pay as a down payment on this new house. Now, as a reminder, $600,000 home, we're going to put $278,000 on it. That's going to keep their monthly payment at about 2340.

[Bo Hansen]

Yeah, I mean, they're pretty much putting down almost half of the purchase price down. So that's nice that, that's keeping that, that, that payment low. And then Even if you think about this, we're running the down to earth plan at 160,000. This is going to keep it right in line with the 25% of housing costs as well. So they're going to get the lifestyle upgrade in life, but they're also still going to be very respectful of doing the 25% of household expenses for housing.

[Brian Preston]

Now the thing that, that you're probably thinking, or I know that they're gonna think when they're hearing this is, okay, we're gonna have an extra fifteen hundred dollars a month of margin going to new savings. But I remember the guy said we had 2,300 to work with. So 1500 is what we're using. But we have 2,300. There's an extra $700 there. I bet they're gonna say, okay, now we gotta fund the Roth. Now we gotta start saving, now we gotta start building. I actually don't think that's the right move.

[Bo Hansen]

Well, this is Operation Anna at this point is because, I mean, look, we love Roth IRAs, but I can't sense that Anna needs to be the commissioner of some of this money to where she has complete 100% control and doesn't have Luke and you know, looking over her shoulder saying, how are you spending this? Give me your receipts. So we think that of this $700, let's give Anna $400 a month of just fun money. That's right, Go out there, have a good time. Luke, you don't get much accountability on this. We're just going to let Anna live her best life for the household and let's see what she comes back with.

[Brian Preston]

And so what's great is if we rework the budget, assuming this down to earth plan, you can see we're able to fund those both short term and intermediate term goals through the sinking fund, the $1,563. But we're also able to fund the lifestyle $400 a month for the other things, the happiness, the decor, the, the birthday gifts that randomly show up. And I think that way they both feel like they are heard and are living not just a life that's going to look good in the future, but a life that's going to look good today.

[Bo Hansen]

Now this is kind of interesting because, you know, we love people to save and invest somewhere between 20 and 25%. Doing the math on this, they're only going to be saving about 14%. And in the way that breaks down is if you look at the 401k, they're already putting 6%. And then Luke's Roth 401k, they're getting a 4% match. That's where we get to 10%. We're going to be boosting this up with the additional savings, 14%. Does this even have a chance?

[Brian Preston]

Yeah. So right now they have about $100,000 invest at age 30. If they just can hit that 14% savings rate that you outline, it's about $22,000 a year total going into their portfolio. They're still on a great path. By the time that they get out to age 60, portfolios worth almost $5 million. By the time they get to 65, normal retirement age, they could have a portfolio of $8 million. This is in a time when they were able to get in a new car, go to Italy, get in a new home, all inside of five years without sacrificing those long term goals. Because for them, at age 65, an $8 million portfolio was the equivalent of about $113,000 of income at a 4% withdrawal rate in today's dollars. There's no Social Security, no pensions, no nothing else. On top of that, I think it's possible for them to have a better and more improved current day as well as a great big beautiful tomorrow. I don't think it has to be an either or. And it sounds like in their marriage it's being painted as an either or.

[Bo Hansen]

Now we backed into these numbers and when we came up with the 65 number, we have to bring it back to today's purchasing power. And we did figure out, hey, this is going to be about 71% replacement ratio. And you like, at first you might be like, well, wait a minute, how is that going to work? But realize they're not going to have to save for the future. We're going to have debt under control. There's not going to be debt issues you're not going to have, the taxes will be in a better place. So 71% could work. I think there's a really good chance and it's going to let them live a happier life. And I think that this is going to be one of those things where you look back in this conversation is Luke's going to feel like he's getting his opportunity to at least make the jump. Because that's the other thing we base this off of, assuming that it just stayed at $160,000 based upon the passion that Luke was sharing. Who's to say that we don't jump into the dream plan very quickly and this gets Even boosted up even more. We're just trying to say, hey, no, this is what's going to allow you to at least take some action today.

[Brian Preston]

Now, I want to be clear, though, because. And it's worth noting, you and I are not members of this marriage. And so this is a plan, this is an idea, this is a potential solution. I think what's going to really matter for them is I want them to watch this and I want them to sit down and figure out what the plan for them is that makes the most sense. And I don't want it to be something where let's say, hey, Bo and Brian said, we got to do this, we're going to do. Or Anna says, I know, Bo, Brian. I said, we got. They have to build the plan together, and that's the only way that they're going to be able to get on the same page moving forward.

[Bo Hansen]

Well, this is why. I mean, looking at. I mean, we don't. We're not too dissimilar to this. We are. We're kind of the nerdy financial people. We have wives that we. We're pretty much pulling them into being active participants in the communication. And that's why annual meetings on the finances, annual updates to the net worth statement, they need to be creating so that way they have a cohesive plan so that Anna does feel like she's part of this. And then Luke has got to understand that the discipline of budgeting and all that is going to be very helpful in the beginning. But at some point, you got to loosen up.

[Brian Preston]

That's right.

[Bo Hansen]

And we got to get them on the same page so that two becomes one when it comes to these financial goals.

[Brian Preston]

I'm so thankful that you guys let us be a part of your financial life. I'm excited we get to put this plan together, and frankly, I'm excited to see where it goes for them.

[Bo Hansen]

Marriage is somebody who's been doing this for close to 30 years now is. There's a lot of patience. There's a lot of. You got to put in the time to the communication. But just remember why you love each other. You'll make it through this messy middle. I really do believe it, Luke and Anna, but y' all got to listen to each other and you got to respect each other and get on the same page with these financial goals so that y' all can be united. And then look back and this will be one of those messy middle moments where you say, yeah, the days were long, but man, oh, man, were the year short. But we made it through it.

[Brian Preston]

If you would like to be a guest on Making Millionaire you can go to moneyguy.com apply or if you want to check out any of our resources or tools you can go to moneyguy.com resources.

[Bo Hansen]

Remember, money is nothing but a tool but it is definitely something. We've got to bound ourselves in reality but have good communication with our spouse. I'm your host Brian joined by Mr. Bob Moneyguide team out.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

The Money Guy show is hosted by Brian Preston and Bo Hansen. Brian and Bo are partners with Abound Wealth Management. Abound Wealth Management is a registered investment advisory firm regulated by the securities and Exchange Commission. In accordance and compliance with the securities laws and regulations, Abound Wealth Management does not render or offer to render personalized investment or tax advice through Making A Millionaire. The information provided is for informational purposes only, may not be suitable for all investors, and does not constitute financial, tax, investment or legal advice. All investments involve a degree of risk, including the risk of loss. The guests featured on Making a Millionaire are not clients of Abound Wealth Management at the time of recording. Their participation should not be considered a testimonial or endorsement of Abound Wealth Management.

[Bo Hansen]

Some Follow the noise. Bloomberg Follows the money. Whether it's the funds fueling AI or crypto's trillion dollar swings, there's a money side to every story. Get the money side of the story. Subscribe [e-mail].