Money Stuff: The Podcast — "Also Sticky"

Date: March 27, 2026
Hosts: Matt Levine (Bloomberg Opinion columnist), Katie Greifeld (Bloomberg News reporter and TV host)

Episode Overview

In "Also Sticky," Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld reconvene after travels to New Orleans and Las Vegas, kicking off with lighthearted updates before diving into key developments in private credit markets, the latest Larry Fink annual letter, and SpaceX IPO speculation. Expect the duo's trademark mix of finance elucidation, skepticism, and humor as they question liquidity myths, investment narratives, and index mechanics—while dropping memorable one-liners along the way.

Personal Updates and Banter

[01:41–05:23]

• Trips Recap: Matt attended an M&A law conference in New Orleans ("Were the streets sticky?" "A little, yeah." - Katie/Matt, 01:43–01:45), while Katie covered an ETF conference in Las Vegas and visited the Titanic Museum.
• Listener Feedback: Podcast fans at the ETF conference specifically requested more ETF content.
• Life News from Katie:
  • Bought a house (almost official) and is expecting a baby girl named Julia.
    • "Should I tell the listeners that I'm pregnant?" — Katie (03:21)
    • "Congratulations on your house and your pregnancy." — Matt (03:36)
  • Discussed baby naming, sharing family connections and, humorously, deliberated naming her child after her horse ("August 'Gus' for short").

Main Theme 1: Private Credit Redemption Drama

[05:23–14:42]

Key Discussion Points

• Private Credit Still Dominates Headlines:
  • "It's like every other red spike on the terminal is about private credit." — Katie (05:27)
• Recent Events:
  • Apollo and Ares received over 11% redemption requests in their private BDCs but stuck to a 5% allowed redemption, deferring the rest—standard playbook for semi-liquid structures.
  • Exceptions include Blackstone, which funded extra redemptions internally, and Blue Owl, which is winding down a fund.
  • "It's not like it's on page 92 of the prospectus, it's on page one, which is true." — Matt (07:45), quoting BlackRock’s Larry Fink.
• Fiduciary Dilemma:
  • Fund managers balance not triggering fire sales and protecting remaining investors from artificially inflated NAV (net asset value) redemptions.
  • "If the NAV is way too high, then you're cashing them out at way too high... and the people who stay in the fund are getting diluted." — Matt (07:59–08:17)
• Liquidity “Confusion”:
  • “Liquidity confusion” is cited as a new industry term, with some questions about how well risks were communicated to certain investor segments.
  • Jim Zelter (Apollo) notes: "Certain distribution channels in certain parts of the globe may have not fully communicated the risks inherent to the asset class." — read by Katie (10:10)
  • US retail investors (especially dentists) mentioned as an example of less sophisticated, liquidity-seeking clients.

Fundraising & Future Implications

• Private Credit Inflows Continue:
  • Despite redemptions, significant inflows remain. "There are clearly people who are looking around and saying, this is oversold, this is overblown...they are just like, yeah, we trust it. It's fine." — Matt (11:22–12:00)
  • Noted $5 billion in inflows for the quarter.
• Market Mechanics:
  • Observation that if not for BDCs, these assets would be in high yield funds, leading to price volatility rather than locked-up capital.
  • "Here...the market is still functioning on the loan side and then on the fund side everyone is complaining they can't get their money out." — Matt (14:36)
• New Products:
  • J.P. Morgan launching a private credit fund with a 7.5% redemption allowance is discussed as a possible marketing differentiator.
  • Raising questions about whether higher redemption limits will attract wary investors.

Main Theme 2: Larry Fink’s Annual Letter & Index Fund Ownership in the Age of AI

[15:36–22:47]

Key Discussion Points

• Americans Should Buy More Stocks:
  • "He thinks that Americans should buy more stocks." — Katie (15:51)
  • Matt notes this aligns both with macroeconomic arguments and Fink’s interest as the head of BlackRock, a major index fund provider.
• AI Is Top of Mind:
  • Fink predicts that AI will create massive value, accruing mainly to corporations and their investors, while risking increased wealth inequality via job displacement.
  • "In the future there'll be no jobs, but instead of jobs, there’ll be corporate profits. ... you as a person should transition from having a job to owning the shares of the companies that will make all the profits." — Matt (16:57)
• Universal Basic Index Fund Ownership:
  • Matt riffs on the common UBI (universal basic income) argument but converts it into universal basic index fund ownership.
  • "Make sure everyone owns a share of the index fund and the index fund owns the companies that own the robots, and then it’s fine." — Matt (18:06)
• Emergency Savings Proposal:
  • Fink advocates for employer-linked, market-invested emergency savings accounts as a private-sector approach.
  • Hosts point out that this is a limited solution—"how will you pay for food for the rest of your life if no one has jobs?" — Matt (18:34)
• Nuanced Inequality Effects:
  • Some roles (plumbers, electricians) are less automatable, implying shifting, nuanced effects on job markets and inequality.
  • "And so it's unclear exactly how the inequality runs, but Mark Zuckerberg will do great." — Matt (19:53)
• Tension Between the AI Complex and Consumer Economy:
  • Katie paraphrases Elapshah: “Every investment today in an AI company or a beneficiary carries an implicit short on the consumer economy.” — (20:30)
  • Matt challenges the coherence, noting "if you displace everyone from their jobs...who’s left to consume?"

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "If you’re OpenAI, you need people to pay $20 a month to chat to your porn bot...They’ve pulled the porn bot." — Matt (21:54–22:08)
• Discussion of ESG: Acknowledging the shift from climate/ESG themes to AI but connecting both to the notion of a "guy who owns everything" considering systemic risks.

Main Theme 3: SpaceX IPO Speculation & Index Fund Mechanics

[23:59–31:50]

Key Discussion Points

• Potential SpaceX IPO:
  • "The information reported that SpaceX might file to go public this week." — Matt (23:59)
  • Discusses escalating rumored valuations: $50 billion, then $75 billion. "Biggest IPO ever." — Katie (24:25)
  • Anticipates huge secondary supply post-IPO due to early investor and employee lockups rolling off.
• Index Inclusion Challenges:
  • Index providers (e.g., NASDAQ, S&P) may change rules to include SpaceX faster, so index funds can facilitate orderly exit for pre-IPO investors.
  • "All the index firms are thinking about how to restructure stock indexes to allow SpaceX to get into their indexes earlier." — Matt (25:48)
• Volatility and Index Entry Timing:
  • Explains the rationale behind excluding new IPOs from indexes until they “season”—mitigates jumpiness from insider sales and index buying.
  • "If you can mush those things together, you reduce some of that volatility...There’s a day where all the early investors can sell TO S&P 500 index funds and like, you know, less volatility." — Matt (27:17)
• Closed-End Funds as SpaceX Proxies:
  • EchoStar (spectrum license/SpaceX stock holder) surged on IPO news.
  • Fundrise Innovation Fund—closed-end vehicle trading at a wild premium (1,200% of NAV), leading to a Citron short report:
    • "That's a good short thesis." — Matt (30:08)
  • Observation: Many funds advertise SpaceX exposure, generating mania and pricing anomalies. ("One important move ... is putting up a big sign saying we own some SpaceX and then see if people start paying a premium for your stock." — Matt, 31:28)

Bonus: Elon Musk Securities Fraud Jury Drama

[31:50–33:37]

• Matt tells a surreal story about Musk losing a securities fraud trial involving the Twitter acquisition—a case featuring a $4.20 figure written in blue ink by the jury, allegedly to taunt Musk.
  • "Elon Musk doesn’t think 420 is funny anymore..." — Matt (32:41)
  • Katie: "Does any of it matter to him?" Matt: "Rationally, no. But emotionally, I think very much so." (33:22–33:24)

Notable Quotes

• "Functioning as sold." — Katie (09:38, on private credit lockups)
• "Liquidity confusion." — Matt (09:44)
• "In a world where robots do all of our work for us and we don't have to work... that's great in the aggregate. But then it's like, if you don't have any way to pay for the production that the robots produce, then that's bad for you." — Matt (17:46–17:57)
• "One important move you can make in today’s financial markets is putting up a big sign saying we own some SpaceX and see if people start paying a premium for your stock." — Matt (31:28)
• "Elon Musk doesn’t think 420 is funny anymore..." — Matt (32:41)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:41–05:23] — Personal catch-up, trips, house purchase, pregnancy reveal
• [05:23–14:42] — Private credit redemptions, liquidity, investor concerns
• [15:36–22:47] — Larry Fink’s letter, stock ownership, index funds, AI, inequality
• [23:59–31:50] — SpaceX IPO rumors, index mechanics, funds trading at wild premiums, market structure
• [31:50–33:37] — Elon Musk trial and jury antics

Tone & Style

The episode features the hosts’ trademark blend of dry wit, technical insight, skepticism, and playful banter. They challenge finance industry narratives, poke fun at themselves and market mechanics, and retain a conversational, inviting style—even when unpacking serious topics like market liquidity, inequality, and the implications of technological change.

For First-time Listeners

This episode provides a rich, entertaining primer on hot topics in private credit, index fund mechanics, and the evolving storylines of Wall Street’s largest players. Matt and Katie’s natural rapport and knack for highlighting both absurdities and hard truths in modern finance make this a must-listen for both seasoned pros and curious observers.