Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: “An OK Horse”
Host: Matt Levine (Bloomberg Opinion)
Co-host: Katie Greifeld (Bloomberg News/TV)
Date: January 23, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld banter about New York weather and the J.P. Morgan office pub before diving into topical issues in finance. They cover the politics and legal risks of "debanking," meme coins and their (un)intentional overlaps with journalism and software, CEO "moonshot" compensation packages, and the New York Stock Exchange's plans for 24/7 tokenized stock trading. Throughout, Matt maintains his trademark dry humor, Katie offers grounded observations, and the episode whirls between finance wonkery, internet culture, and a surprising amount of horse-related math.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Banter: Storms, Snow, and the JP Morgan Pub (01:19–06:13)

• Weather Chat (01:19–02:15):
  The pair discuss the forecasted snowstorm in NYC, reminisce about past storms, and joke about suburban woes.

  • Matt: “I used to like snow a lot more before I became a suburban dad, and now it’s like shoveling a foot of snow. It’s not fun anymore.” (01:46)

• JP Morgan Healthcare Conference Correction (02:48–03:41):
  Katie corrects a previous podcast error, noting that Jamie Dimon did attend the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference, though not in her vicinity.

• The JP Morgan Office Pub (04:19–06:13):
  Katie shares her excitement about visiting the legendary new pub inside JP Morgan’s office.

  • They detail trivia: drinks only served after 3 PM, screen-printed Guinness foam with images of the building (and possibly Jamie Dimon's face).
  • Matt: “It’s been 20% of the content of this podcast. They have a pub at their... Their brand new office.” (04:43)

2. Debanking Donald Trump & Bank CEO Politics (06:13–08:13)

• Trump’s Lawsuit Against JP Morgan (06:21–07:40):
  Trump sues JP Morgan (and Jamie Dimon) for $5 billion, alleging "debanking" for political reasons after January 6, 2021.

  • Matt contrasts banks’ withdrawal from unsavory clients (i.e., Jeffrey Epstein) with political sensitivities surrounding Trump.
  • Matt: “After January 6th, it might have been reasonable for JP Morgan to think, we don’t want to be involved in banking people who have been involved in certain sorts of criminal activity.” (06:52)

• Broader Debanking Politics (07:40–08:13):
  Katie notes Bank of America's CEO Brian Moynihan’s exclusion from a Davos reception, possibly also for “debanking.”

  • Katie: “...the White House excluded Brian Moynihan ... and one of the reported reasons was potentially debanking. Yeah, the suspicion of debanking.” (08:07)

3. Meme Coins, Royalties, and Journalistic Ethics (08:43–16:18)

• The Gastown Meme Coin Story (08:43–13:09)
  Matt explains how a meme coin was launched referencing “Gastown” (a software project), with royalties directed by the coin’s creator to the open-source developer as an incentive mechanism.

  • Matt: “A meme coin was foisted upon me. Let me take a step back and tell this story...” (08:50)
  • The developer was initially skeptical, likening the offer to a scam, but after setting up a wallet, withdrew about $70,000.

• Is it like Patreon? (12:16–13:09):
  Katie wonders if this is akin to Patreon; Matt clarifies the key difference—speculators get rich too, and creators’ benefit is indirect and unpredictable.

  • Matt: “It is not just a way to funnel money to creators, it’s a way to funnel money to creators while also giving a lot of that money to the people involved in the crypto trading.” (12:27)
  • Matt: “Cryptogrifters are recruiting Open Source AI developers. Which is, I think, closer to my view of it...” (13:00)

• Matt’s Own Meme Coin (13:21–15:12):
  Someone made a meme coin for Matt after he wrote about Gastown. He vows not to touch the funds, citing journalistic ethics.

  • Matt: “...I’m not going to name the coin or the platform. I do not want people trading the thing to generate royalties for me.” (13:24)
  • Katie: “That is an okay horse. You could do a lot with that.” (13:52; referencing $10,000 as the price of a mediocre horse)

• Legal Recourse & NFT Parallels (15:12–16:18):
  Katie inquires about lawsuits when meme coins use your brand without consent. Matt points out the practical difficulties due to anonymity and platform decentralization, likening it to NFT copyright gripes.

  • Matt: “I think, practically, it’s often hard to sue them... because these are typically somewhat anonymous, decentralized platforms...” (15:40)

4. CEO "Moonshot" Compensation Packages (16:36–22:53)

• Wall Street’s ‘Moonshot’ Pay Trend (16:36–19:17):
  Discussion centers on a Wall Street Journal story citing Equilar’s study of CEO compensation packages worth $100 million+ (or “10,000 horses”), requiring aggressive stock price goals.

  • Matt: “It used to be that CEOs got paid millions of dollars and now there’s a new vogue for paying them in a form that sort of looks like $0 plus a bajillion dollars if they hit some very aggressive growth in stock price targets...” (17:05)
  • These are modeled on Elon Musk’s Tesla compensation, sparking imitation across corporate America.
  • Matt: “The idea of these moonshots is, most of them won’t work out, and some of them will work out enormously well.” (18:40)

• Do Companies Expect to Fail? (18:49–19:17):
  Katie wonders if companies approach these knowing most will fail. Matt says, “Everyone thinks they’re going to be the successful moonshot...” (18:55)

• Shareholder View & the Moonshot Portfolio (19:17–20:36):
  The logic: diversified shareholders benefit if just a few CEOs succeed. Katie muses about constructing a “moonshot portfolio.”

  • Katie: “You could construct a moonshot portfolio... of these 21 companies.” (19:19)
  • Matt: “A lot of them underperformed the S&P, but some of them are Tesla.” (19:31)

• Are Moonshots for Startups or Public Companies? (20:44–22:04):
  Matt unpacks how these pay deals mimic startup “big bet” logic, but questions their fit to mature, large-cap firms.

  • Matt: “You’re sort of making these very bold bets. That makes sense when you’re a startup and maybe makes less sense for a large public company...” (21:41)

• Canceling the Moonshot Pay (and Psychologically for CEOs) (22:04–22:53):
  If performance goals look unreachable, CEOs often get new, lower options anyway.

  • Matt: “You’ll get nothing unless you 10x the company, in which case you’ll get a bajillion dollars. Right. And then after two years, you’re like, well, I’m not going to 10x the company, but yeah, I’m working hard. And then they’re like, okay, fine, take some money.” (22:14)

5. NYSE’s Tokenized 24/7 Stock Trading Plan (23:18–27:48)

• The News (23:18–24:03):
  The NYSE is working on a blockchain platform to allow round-the-clock trading in tokenized stocks and ETFs.

• Why Pair Tokenization with 24/7 Trading? (24:03–26:20):
  Real-time settlement is easier with blockchains, which fits the expectation of retail investors to trade and immediately redeploy capital outside traditional business hours.

  • Matt: “In a world... catering to retail traders who want to trade 24 7, settlement is an obstacle... so you’re combining the 24/7 trading with real time settlement.” (25:05)
  • Katherine references her conversation with NYSE's Michael Blaugrand, who says it's about “getting their products in the digital wallets of the next generation investor.” (25:42)

• Is Tokenization Required? (26:13–26:32):
  Matt notes tokenization is not essential to real-time settlement but is the current method of choice.

  • Matt: “I don’t think that tokenization is an absolute requirement for real time settlement. But it’s how it’s going to happen…” (26:13)

• Inevitability, User Experience, and Shift Trades (26:32–27:48):
  They agree 24/7 trading seems inevitable as apps remake the market experience—waiting for business hours “would kind of be like, what am I doing?” (26:34, Matt). Matt and Katie riff on the idea of “night shift” trading jobs.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Assuming... makes you make corrections on podcasts.”
  — Katie Greifeld (03:42)

• “A meme coin was foisted upon me.”
  — Matt Levine (08:50)

• “Allow me to get richer just by telling you about it.”
  — Matt Levine, quoting Steve Yegge (11:55)

• “That is an OK horse. You could do a lot with that.”
  — Katie Greifeld (13:52; tongue-in-cheek reference to what $10,000 would buy)

• “Do not buy it... I’m not going to talk about it more and I’m not going to be helped by any aspect of it.”
  — Matt Levine (14:46)

• “You have 10 CEOs who think they’re going to get to the moon, and eight of them are diluted and two of them are right, and you don’t know which is which. But let them all try.”
  — Matt Levine (18:59)

• “The classic Moonshot pay package is: you’re an early stage startup founder... and your pay is like ramen and 30% of the equity of a company...”
  — Matt Levine (20:45)

• “You’ll get nothing unless you 10x the company... And then after two years you’re like, well, I’m not going to 10x the company, but yeah, I’m working hard. And then they’re okay, fine, take some money.”
  — Matt Levine (22:14)

• “If I was like a huge fan of an app on my phone and then it stopped working at 4pm on Friday and I couldn’t use it all weekend... what am I doing?”
  — Matt Levine (26:34)

• “I picture a cozy, dark room, the warm glow of your computer screen... My flannel pajama bottoms on. Yeah, sounds good.”
  — Katie Greifeld (27:27; imagining the ‘night shift’ for a 24/7 stock market)

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Storm banter, JP Morgan pub | 01:19–06:13 | | Trump debanking lawsuit, bank politics | 06:13–08:13 | | Meme coins, creator royalties, ethics | 08:43–16:18 | | CEO moonshot bonus/compensation trend | 16:36–22:53 | | NYSE tokenized 24/7 trading discussion | 23:18–27:48 |

Tone and Style

The episode is conversational and humorous, full of “inside baseball” finance references, with Matt’s dry wit and Katie’s upbeat, accessible style. Jokes about horses, drinking Guinness at the office, and speculative meme coins keep even intricate finance topics breezy.

Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode covers a wide range of trending topics:

• Practical impacts of politics and regulation on Wall Street (debanking)
• The blurry ethics and mechanics behind internet tokenization/meme coins
• How executive pay structures have gotten more audacious
• The technological and cultural inevitability of 24/7, blockchain-fueled trading
  Listeners get both industry insight and irreverent color, learning how financial innovation, regulation, and incentive systems interact in Wall Street’s evolving landscape.