Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: Bat Tat: Labubu, OBDC, Frank
Date: November 21, 2025
Hosts: Matt Levine (Bloomberg Opinion, "Money Stuff"), Katie Greifeld (Bloomberg News & TV)

Episode Overview

This week on Money Stuff: The Podcast, Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld spin through a range of topics at the quirky edges of finance, from the personal (Katie’s new "bat tat") to the deeply technical (derivatives on collectible toys), and on to a saga of corporate fraud (the Frank-J.P. Morgan debacle). True to form, Matt brings technical clarity peppered with dry wit, while Katie keeps things lively, skeptical, and relatable.

1. The "Bat Tat": Katie’s Neck Tattoo & Corporate TV Reactions

[01:26–03:38]

• Katie reveals she got a Batman-themed neck tattoo in memory of her late pony named Batman, her first tattoo ever, and an unusually bold choice for someone on financial television.
  • “Yeah, it’s a bat tat on my neck. It’s my first tattoo. A little intense to get it on the neck.” – Katie (01:44)
• Matt’s reaction: Surprised it’s her first and commends the commitment.
• Katie shares the emotional backstory: “I got the tattoo for my late pony, Batman. I’d had him since I was 11. He passed away in May, the day before my birthday.” (01:55)
• Workplace angle: Her conservative TV producers were surprisingly enthusiastic, even orchestrating an on-air reveal.
• The duo riff on tattoo timing and adulthood:
  • Matt: “Weird for me to get a tattoo now. I’m an old man.” (03:01)
  • Katie: “But I feel like if you want a tattoo, you probably get it in your teens or twenties.” (03:12)
  • Matt: “No, I feel like a lot of people enter a new phase of life in their 30s and become tattoo people.” (03:15)

2. Labubu Derivatives: Prediction Markets Go Full Meme

[04:04–13:29]

• Labubu?
  The hosts discuss the rise of “labubus”—oddball collectible toys which, much to their bemusement/disgust, are now subject to financial derivatives via prediction markets like Kalshi in partnership with StockX.

  • “They’re like furry creatures... They’re freaky. They’re freaky little things. Now you can trade derivatives of them, kind of.” – Katie (04:31)
  • “You can trade binary options on the boo boos. It’s so good.” – Matt (04:35)

• Matt explains the event contract mechanism:
  It’s not about owning the collectible but about betting on price outcomes—for example, “a yes/no contract that pays off a dollar if the price of some box of labubus is over $120 and it pays off $0 if the price ... is less than $120.” (05:38)

• Meta discussion:
  These are convoluted financial products—event contracts about sneakers, trading cards, and meme toys—representing a larger trend toward making markets out of anything and everything.

  • “If you get money for trading, then you want to turn everything in the world into a yes/no event...what products can we trade? And it’s like well, sneakers. Well, sneakers are not really yes/no events, but if you have to, you can make them...” – Matt (06:12)
  • “It’s a strange, strange mechanism. Maybe this is just like a publicity stunt. But... there is a belief... that this is like the path to be an everything exchange...” – Matt (07:13)

• Risk and collateral:
  Event contracts (binary options) present less risk than continuous contracts; they’re easier to collateralize and harder to blow up than, say, crypto derivatives.

• Manipulation concerns:
  Katie wonders about how easy these things are to rig; Matt describes the (at first) limited potential given tiny market sizes, but acknowledges that as they (possibly) scale, manipulation issues will grow:

  • “If the event contract gets big enough... you’ll buy some of the underlying thing to push it up above the threshold and you make a lot of money on the contract. It’s very easy to manipulate in concept, it’s probably very hard to manipulate right now in reality.” – Matt (10:17)

• Regulatory angle:
  If everything becomes a prediction market, regulatory bodies like the CFTC will increasingly have to deal with market manipulation in everything (from wheat to sneakers).

  • “If you put everything onto prediction markets then everything becomes a commodity and the CFTC has to think about were you buying those sneakers to push up the price of sneaker futures.” – Matt (11:04)

• The two futures for prediction markets:
  Matt: “One is ... it somehow becomes a market for everything... [or] it’s like a giant legalized sportsbook, right? And that’s kind of where my money is.” (11:48)

3. OBDC and Blue Owl: The Private Credit Discount Drama

[15:49–23:35]

• From Labubus to Owls:
  The story pivots from collectibles to Katie’s “second love” after horses—ETFs, and specifically Business Development Companies (BDCs), with Blue Owl’s OBDC in focus.
• What’s a BDC?
  Matt: “The BDC is just a private credit fund. It’s just a pot into which a manager like Blue Owl puts private credit investments.” (16:35)
• Difference between ETFs and BDCs:
  The crucial distinction – BDCs don’t allow traditional redemption mechanisms so their share prices can (and do) detach from net asset value (NAV).
  • “With BDCs... There’s no mechanism to make sure that the price of the shares is in line with NAV...And it’s therefore not factually the case.” – Matt (17:32)
• The merger mess:
  Blue Owl tried to merge its public (OBDC) and private (OBDC2) BDCs to address redemption pressure, but failed because:
  • The public OBDC trades at a 20% discount to NAV, so merging would force private holders to realize losses to access liquidity.
  • “No one wanted that. So they ultimately called off the merger.” – Matt (19:14)
• Why the persistent discount?
  • Some is standard (future fees), but in late 2025, Matt notes persistent skepticism about the true value of private credit assets:
    • “There are some people who believe that some private credit loans aren’t worth as much as private credit managers think they are.” (20:43)
    • “The price of OBDC shares tells you what people think about what the current loans are currently worth... The price of the business development company possibly suggests cockroaches.” – Matt (22:24)
• Potential for liquidation:
  The vehicle may end up being liquidated, in which case shareholders would (in theory) receive 100 cents on the dollar—assuming the assets are truly worth that.
  • “Liquidating is not a terrible outcome...because it’s like then you get 100 cents on the dollar...Better than 80 for sure.” – Matt (23:17)

4. Frank, J.P. Morgan, and the Legendary Legal Bill

[26:44–34:16]

• Recap of the Frank saga:
  • Charlie Javice, founder of Frank (student aid fintech), sells company to J.P. Morgan for $170 million, largely on the basis of a claimed customer base that proved mostly (literally) fake.
    • “The allegations are that she sold it to them on the basis of, like, having millions of devoted customers. And then it turned out that all of the customer email addresses in her database were fake.” – Matt (26:51)
  • JP Morgan promotes her internally before discovering the fraud via failed marketing emails.
• Prison, indemnity, and bonkers legal bills:
  • Despite being accused (and later convicted) of fraud against J.P. Morgan, the bank is contractually obliged to pay her legal bills, already totaling over $142 million (and climbing).
    • “The legal bills are now nine digits.” – Matt (28:50)
  • Katie on WSJ’s reporting: “According to the Wall Street Journal, between her and her co-executive’s legal defense, it’s already cost more than $142 million. Incredible.” (29:00)
• Egregious billing & "cellulite butter":
  • The legal teams’ expense reports include luxury hotels and “cellulite butter.”
    • “I never heard of it. Okay, I’m interested.” – Katie (30:14)
  • Matt theorizes that this is routine big-firm lawyering—clients pay for everything, even personal services or surprises: “There’s a lot of stuff like that where if you’re a client... [law firms will] just do it for you. But then they’ll put it on your bill.” (31:37)
• Can JP Morgan stop the bleeding?
  • Ongoing litigation to halt payments; but even if they succeed, the saga exposes the perverse logic of corporate indemnity and legal billing excess.
• Notable reflection on modern corporate risk:
  • How big does a bank’s mistake have to be to make analysts ask about it on an earnings call? “The $175 million acquisition of Frank definitely got raised on some calls...But now we’re getting to that level...we’ve doubled that price tag.” – Matt (33:13)
• A sobering coda:
  • Katie: “Charlie Javis is exactly my age. She was born in March of 1993. She’s done so much. What have I done?” – Katie (33:47)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the rise of event contracts/trading anything:
  • “If you put everything onto prediction markets then everything becomes a commodity and the CFTC has to think about were you buying those sneakers to push up the price of sneaker futures.” – Matt (11:04)
• On BDC discounts:
  • “There are some people who believe that some private credit loans aren’t worth as much as private credit managers think they are.” – Matt (21:05)
• On the size of the Frank legal defense:
  • “The legal bills are now nine digits.” – Matt (28:50)
  • Katie: “According to the Wall Street Journal, between her and her co-executive’s legal defense, it’s already cost more than $142 million. Incredible. So they’re pretty incredible. Yeah. Queen. Just kidding.” (29:00)
• On billable hour excess:
  • “Lawyers were billing for 20 hours of work in a single day.” – Katie (31:49)
  • Matt: “That’s individual lawyers...24 hours. I’ve worked at a law firm.” (32:02)
• On career/life (with deadpan):
  • Katie: “Charlie Javis is exactly my age. She was born in March of 1993. She’s done so much. What have I done?” (33:47)
  • Matt: “And by the time she gets out of prison, when she eventually goes, I mean, she’ll still be a relatively young woman. Yeah, early 40s. Lot to live for. She could still get a tattoo.” (34:00)

Key Timestamps

• 01:26 – Katie’s bat neck tattoo, story and on-air reveal
• 04:04 – The rise of labubu (Labubu) collectibles and their market derivatives
• 06:55 – How binary prediction markets work and their expansion to collectibles
• 11:04 – Regulatory implications if everything becomes a prediction market
• 15:51 – Shifting to BDCs and the Blue Owl OBDC drama
• 19:14 – The failed OBDC/OBDC2 merger and public/private fund dynamics
• 21:24 – Why BDCs (and private credit) might trade at persistent discounts
• 26:44 – Enter the Frank-JP Morgan deep dive
• 28:50 – $142 million (and growing) legal bill for Charlie Javis’ defense
• 30:14 – Mystery of the “cellulite butter” and law firm expense culture
• 33:13 – How financial fiascos hit public-company earnings scrutiny

Episode Tone & Style

• Deadpan, witty, lightly skeptical storytelling with explanations—Matt’s signatures abound, especially as he explains convoluted market structures or pokes at legal absurdities.
• Conversational, personal, and a bit irreverent—Katie’s tattoo and reactions to financial oddities keep the show grounded and relatable.
• Theme: The wildly expanding boundaries of what’s monetized and tradable in finance, along with stark illustrations of perverse incentives and bubble dynamics.

For Listeners: Why Should You Listen?

This episode is a whirlwind tour through modern finance’s weirdest fringes, giving you technical clarity on prediction markets, real talk on private credit’s hidden risks, and a front-row seat to one of the most expensive examples of corporate schadenfreude in recent years. All delivered with a blend of dry humor, fresh skepticism, and surprisingly warm personal moments.