Money Stuff: The Podcast — Boaz Weinstein (March 19, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Money Stuff hosts Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld welcome Boaz Weinstein, founder of Saba Capital Management, for a deep dive into the world of closed-end fund (“CEF”) and business development company (“BDC”) activism, with a particular focus on his current tender offers for private BDCs like Blue Owl (OBDC2) and Starwood S REIT. The conversation unpacks the mechanics of these trades, the underlying problems with liquidity in private credit and interval fund vehicles, structural conflicts for managers, and the implications for retail and institutional investors. Along the way, Boaz offers candid insights, practical lessons from years of activism, and memorable commentary on the challenges—and dysfunctions—of today's credit markets.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Trade: Saba's Tenders for Blue Owl & Starwood S REIT

• Why Now?
  Boaz describes his firm's offer to buy 5% of OBDC2 (Blue Owl) at a ~35% discount to NAV, and a similar tender for Starwood S REIT, both intended to provide liquidity to investors who are otherwise gated (locked in) for years ([01:35–04:48]).

• Is It Activism, Value Investing, or Trolling?

  • Matt presses: “Are you hedging the credit? Are you trolling?”
  • Boaz: "Why Matt, do you assume it’s not all the above?" ([02:32])
  • The trade is born from real market need (advisors with large blocks seeking exit), not just publicity.

• Closed-End Fund Activism Playbook

  • Saba’s approach is rooted in their experience with CEFs, where similar liquidity mismatches and governance levers exist.
  • “They're not close cousins. They're literally like brother and sister...the more or less the same.” – Boaz ([04:52])
  • Legal mechanisms, tenders, and board challenges from CEF activism apply to BDCs/interval funds as well.

Liquidity Mismatch & The Retail Injustice

• Structural Flaw: Selling Investors the Illusion of Liquidity

  • “You have fire insurance in a sell off that you can get out, but it doesn’t work if there’s actually a fire.” – Boaz, paraphrasing his partner/colleagues' criticisms ([05:38])

• Over-Promising and Miscommunication

  • Disclosures technically exist but are misunderstood. Investors don't realize that if 40% want out in a quarter designed for 5% tenders, exits take years ([06:08]).

  • Boaz: “I don’t believe the retail investor understood that the liquidity of the underlying does not at all match the liquidity of their investment.” ([07:19])

• Sales Incentives and Scandals

  • “The sales commissions were so large to draw people to want to sell it ... that I think is a scandal.”
  • “Clients should know ex post what their trusted adviser was paid for putting them into this thing my grandmother used to call dreck.” ([08:47])

Why Managers Resist Doing The Right Thing

• “Permanent Capital” Is Too Tempting to Give Up

  • Fund managers resist converting closed-end products to open-end because “the value the stock market will ascribe to an ETF...and a closed end fund... is so different. The lure, the drug of permanent capital. It sounds so good not having to deal with investors.” ([08:47])

• Activists Face Obstacles From Both Managers and Investors

  • Retail investors often “will even vote in a way that harms themselves” because of trust in managers and misleading pitches about yield.
  • But, says Boaz: “Imagine this. ... we say we’re going to do no fees for a year. How do you like that client?” ([12:33])

Tender Mechanics and the OBDC2 Experiment

• The Process Is Clunky and Discouraged by Managers

  • Investors receive the offer by mail, with a discouraging letter from the manager attached: “Don’t do [this]. We don’t recommend you do this.” ([15:22–15:39])
  • Blue Owl’s leadership was neutral to friendly; Starwood was on record recommending against participating.

• NAV Reality: Are The Marks Real?

  • Even a 35% discount might not be enough; funds are generally levered and NAVs may be inflated.
  • “We don’t think that there’s a lot of manager alpha in that space.” ([17:55])
  • “Navs are too high across the board, even if they’re more than too high at certain places.” ([17:55])

• Potential for Systemic Issues

  • “This could be a systemic nightmare...because so many people think we’re going to buy none.” ([19:57, 22:15])

Broader Market Implications & Comparisons

• Public vs. Private BDCs/Funds

  • Public BDCs trade at much larger discounts (sometimes 50%), while private vehicles maintain high NAV marks.
  • Managers have little incentive to buy back their public BDCs at huge discounts, as that shrinks AUM and potential fees ([30:01–39:43]).

• Volatility Laundering and the “Illiquidity Premium” Mirage

  • Boaz, referencing Cliff Asness: “Volatility laundering...is just about the best two word quote for to talk about what’s wrong with Wall Street ever...” ([47:33–49:33])
  • Private credit marks rarely move, creating the illusion of safety, but masking risks that surface when liquidity is actually needed.

• Incentives Prevent Rational Shareholder-Friendly Action

  • “When [fund managers] don’t go into the market and buy back shares at a 50% discount...greed is laid bare.” ([38:49])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Clunky Tender Offers:
  “It has to...be mailed to them and there’s a long form to fill out. And the thing that arrives in the mail is accompanied...by a letter from the manager saying, ‘don’t do [this].’” – Boaz ([15:22])

• On Managers and Permanent Capital:
  “The lure, the drug of permanent capital. It sounds so good not having to deal with investors.” – Boaz ([08:47])

• On Volatility Laundering in Private Credit:
  “...Somehow they were able to get 12 and literally zero mark-to-market volatility, back to the Cliffwater sharp of 11....For too long the problems were masked and now the curtain gets pulled back...” – Boaz ([49:35])

• On Market Structure Failure:
  “This could be a systemic nightmare...My imagination and the markets is not great enough. First of all, I don’t think people’s imagination here is great enough...” – Boaz ([22:15])

• On Activism, Innovation, and Enjoying the Process:
  “I am really enjoying kind of exploring the creative side of trying something new. I’m hoping that it doesn’t lead to nothing.” – Boaz ([54:31])

Important Segments & Timestamps

• Intro to Boaz’s Tender Offers & Trade Mechanics: [01:35–04:48]
• Liquidity Mismatch & Over-Promise Discussion: [05:30–08:47]
• Conflicts, Commissions, and Campaigns: [08:47–12:33]
• Tender Mechanisms, Manager Opposition: [15:22–16:57]
• Are NAVs Trustworthy? Levered Funds, Markdowns: [16:57–20:23]
• Systemic Risk & Market Reactions: [20:23–23:38]
• Manager Incentives / Why No Buybacks?: [30:01–41:07]
• Cliff Asness, Volatility Laundering, and Retail Illusions: [47:18–50:42]
• Digital Asset Trusts and Special Risks: [52:18–54:30]
• What’s Next for Saba’s Tender Offers?: [50:42–51:45]

Takeaways for Listeners

• Private BDC and interval fund investors are frequently sold an illusion of liquidity that collapses under stress, leading to long wait times or significant discounts to NAV to exit.
• Fund management structures (permanent capital, incentives, fees) create resistance to investor-friendly actions like open-ending funds or buying back shares at deep discounts—even when it could benefit remaining shareholders.
• NAVs in private credit are often overstated, with leverage and infrequent mark-to-market practices compounding risks. The divergence between public and private BDC values exposes structural weaknesses in the system.
• Boaz Weinstein’s current activism is partly an experiment—one that may inform the whole market, and ultimately help reveal the true value and risks in private credit portfolios.
• This episode offers a candid and incisive look at financial innovation, market activism, and the forces driving significant dislocation in retail-facing credit investments.

Memorable exchange — on the market’s lack of imagination:

“My imagination and the markets is not great enough. First of all, I don’t think people’s imagination here is great enough because so many people think we’re going to buy none.” — Boaz Weinstein ([22:15])

Listener Recommendation:
If you want a crash course in how liquidity mismatches, manager incentives, and activism play out in real-time for retail investors in complex credit vehicles, this episode is essential listening—with real-world stakes that go far beyond theory.