Elevated Shepherd's Pie

Summary

Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: Elevated Shepherd’s Pie

Date: January 30, 2026
Hosts: Matt Levine & Katie Greifeld

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld launch into the week’s big stories in Wall Street and finance, blending signature wit with sharp insight. Topics include the possible SpaceX/XAI merger and the curiosities of Musk's business empire, Tether’s gold-buying spree and central bank ambitions, the legal drama around distressed debt restructuring and law firms, and JP Morgan’s internal push to outpace Goldman in M&A. With diversions ranging from latte art at Morgan’s Pub to the Year of the Horse, the conversation is equal parts educational and entertaining.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Morgan’s Pub, Foam Guinness, and Elevated Shepherd’s Pie

• [01:26 - 03:45]
  • Katie shares her experience at "Morgan’s" (J.P. Morgan’s in-house pub), complete with “elevated shepherd’s pie” and latte art.
    • “I had an elevated shepherd's pie…a menu of pub food but elevated.” (Katie, 01:50)
  • Matt jokes about getting a Guinness with Jamie Dimon’s face as latte art.
  • Both wish for an open invitation to make Morgan’s their regular spot, lamenting the exclusivity.
  • The segment sets a playful, down-to-earth tone and pokes gentle fun at corporate amenities.

2. The SpaceX-XAI Merger: Musk’s Expanding Empire

• [04:06 - 10:20]
  • Rumors swirl that SpaceX might IPO around June 9, coinciding with a possible merger with XAI (Elon Musk’s AI venture).
    • “SpaceX is doing an IPO possibly June 9th. … Reuters reported … they are going to merge with XAI.” (Matt, 04:18)
  • Katie jokes about Musk’s empire being “the convergence of the Musk-verse.”
    • “It's the convergence of the Musk verse, which is fun.” (Katie, 05:39)
  • Discussion on why Musk companies merge or remain separate, including compensation structures:
    • “It’s a good idea to motivate people to work on stuff by giving them stock in the stuff they work on.” (Matt, 07:23)
  • Debate on whether Musk is motivated by astrology or just finds planetary alignments amusing (i.e., the significance of launching on 6/9 for meme value).
    • “I think he's like, oh, planets, cool.” (Matt, 10:13)
  • Katie brings up the “Year of the Horse” as a possibly auspicious sign for 2026.
    • “Apparently the Year of the Horse is going to be a lot better than the year that we just exited.” (Katie, 11:10)

3. Tether: From Stablecoin to “Central Bank” – The Gold Play

• [14:01 - 21:28]
  • Tether (issuer of major stablecoin USDT) is amassing gold reserves—now holding over 140 tons—making it the largest known non-bank gold holder.
    • “They are the largest known holder of gold outside of banks and nation. … All told, they own around 140 tons of gold, which is a lot.” (Katie, 15:40, 16:31)
  • Matt’s take: Tether is moving beyond simply backing coins with T-bills and is emulating old-school central bank reserves.
    • “They've transcended regular finance and become a central bank. … They have some big stash of gold in a vault in Switzerland.” (Matt, 15:19)
  • Quirky details: the gold’s stored in a nuclear bunker “guarded by multiple layers of thick steel doors”—“a James Bond kind of place.”
    • “It’s guarded by multiple layers of thick steel doors. He described it as a James Bond kind of place. It's crazy.” (Katie, 17:12)
  • Tether is hiring top gold traders, buying tons each week, and eyeing gold trading ambitions.
    • “HSBC, it lost two senior gold traders to Tether. … They hired them. So they have big ambitions here.” (Katie, 19:34)
  • Both hosts delight in the imagery and logistics of vaulting gold and muse about “goblin-powered car rides” à la Gringotts.
    • “I like the idea of, like, welcome to our enormous pile of gold. … There’s just like, a little pile.” (Matt, 18:42)

4. The Legal Drama: Lender-on-Lender Violence and Kirkland & Ellis’ Dilemma

• [24:31 - 30:16]
  • Matt recounts a saga in distressed debt: creditors of Altice/Optimum band together against the company, drawing antitrust accusations.
    • “So what happened at this company called Optimum or Altice usa, is all of the creditors signed an agreement saying they wouldn't do that. … And Altice or Optimum didn’t like this and they sued the creditors, saying, you’re not allowed to do that. That’s an antitrust violation.” (Matt, 24:31)
  • Kirkland & Ellis, legal giant, apparently sided with the creditors, later backing away under industry pressure.
    • “Kirkland may have been sort of behind this lawsuit. … And they came to Kirkland and said something … we won’t work with you anymore.” (Matt, 26:06)
  • The segment explores the delicate loyalties big law firms must navigate between clients (companies) and the asset managers/banks who provide repeat business.
    • “If you're a company, that’s good. … But it's also a little unnerving because if you’re the lawyers who regularly work with the banks, you might not work that hard on behalf of the company at the expense of the banks.” (Matt, 28:19)
  • Katie and Matt discuss how this legal crackdown has ripple effects in high finance and “everyone has noticed.”
    • “The FT was talking about this. … Everyone in high finance and big law has noticed.” (Katie, 28:06)

5. JP Morgan’s “Work Harder” Speech: M&A Rivalry with Goldman Sachs

• [30:23 - 33:34]
  • JP Morgan investment bank leadership is urging bankers to close the deal gap with Goldman Sachs in M&A after an underperforming year.
    • “JP Morgan senior leadership … has told the firm's investment bankers that they need to work harder to close the gap with rivals including Goldman Sachs on mergers and acquisitions.” (Matt, 30:30)
  • Matt notes cycles in banking: sometimes banks are told to “do less,” sometimes “do more.” This is the classic “just work harder” message.
    • “I assume that most bankers get some version of this speech most years, right? You can always work a little harder.” (Matt, 30:59)
  • The hosts joke about these motivational speeches and speculate on the rivalry from the Goldman side.
    • “How psyched do you think the Goldman M&A bankers were reading this story?” (Katie, 32:44)
    • “It’s like a 30 second moment of victory and then you’re like, pick back up the phone.” (Katie, 33:01)
  • Katie draws a parallel to journalism, sometimes being urged to do fewer, better stories—a brief moment of recognition before the grind resumes.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Shepherd’s Pie at Morgan’s:
  • “I had an elevated shepherd’s pie. … It’s a menu of pub food. But elevated.” — Katie Greifeld (01:50)
• SpaceX IPO Memes:
  • “Now, June 9 also is 6 9, which, I'm sorry I didn't got a big eye roll there, but.” — Matt Levine (08:15)
• On Musk’s “Astrology”:
  • “I think it’s not quite superstition. It’s more like jokey fake superstition.” — Matt Levine (09:31)
  • “Apparently the Year of the Horse is going to be a lot better than the year that we just exited.” — Katie Greifeld (11:10)
• Tether’s Gold Reserve:
  • “They’ve transcended regular finance and become a central bank.” — Matt Levine (15:19)
  • “It's guarded by multiple layers of thick steel doors. He described it as a James Bond kind of place. It's crazy.” — Katie Greifeld (17:12)
  • “I want there to be a tether gold heist story. … That’s really good.” — Matt Levine (17:25)
• Creditors & Lawyers (Altice/Optimum):
  • “The alleged problem here is that these creditors have too much market power.” — Matt Levine (26:05)
• JP Morgan’s Banker Pep Talk:
  • “You can always work a little harder.” — Matt Levine (30:59)
  • “How psyched do you think the Goldman M&A bankers were reading this story?” — Katie Greifeld (32:44)
  • “It’s like a 30 second moment of victory and then you’re like, pick back up the phone.” — Katie Greifeld (33:01)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | Summary | |---------|------------|---------| | Morgan’s Pub & Shepherd’s Pie | 01:26 - 03:45 | Katie and Matt riff on exclusive bank pubs and British cuisine | | SpaceX/XAI Merger & Musk Universe | 04:06 - 10:20 | Musk company mergers, IPO rumors, meme numbers, astrology | | Year of the Horse & Astrology | 10:25 - 11:45 | Katie’s excitement for the Chinese zodiac year ahead | | Tether’s Gold & Central Bank Dreams | 14:01 - 21:28 | Tether buying gold, emulating central banks, gold in a nuclear bunker | | Lender-on-Lender Violence: Kirkland’s Dilemma | 24:31 - 30:16 | Legal strategies in distressed debt, big law loyalty dilemmas | | JPMorgan’s Banker Motivation | 30:23 - 33:34 | JP Morgan urges bankers to outhustle rivals, cycles of “work harder” |

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Tone & Style

The episode maintains a signature Money Stuff vibe: sharp, witty, and just the right amount of irreverence. Both hosts deftly mix rigorous finance analysis with playfulness—whether imagining Harry Potter–style gold vaults or riffing on executive “astrology.”

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Ideal For

Listeners wanting a readable yet thorough overview of the week’s biggest stories in finance, told with intelligence and wit—and just enough offbeat color to keep things fun and memorable.

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Transcript

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Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News Katie, you.

[Matt Levine]

Yes, Drank a foam head of Jamie Dimon last week.

[Katie Greifeld]

Can I tell you something?

[Matt Levine]

Yes.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'm actually going back to J.P. morgan's Pub tonight.

[Matt Levine]

You're a regular. Someone get a stool with your name on it at Jason Morgan's Pub.

[Katie Greifeld]

I was supposed to meet a specific person in a group and they weren't able to come. So now we're going back tonight.

[Matt Levine]

So tell me more about the J.P. morgan Pub.

[Katie Greifeld]

It was awesome. It was very normal.

[Matt Levine]

It's called Morgan's, right?

[Katie Greifeld]

It's called Morgan's. I had an elevated shepherd's pie. Like they have pub food. Like it's a menu of pub food. But elevated.

[Matt Levine]

Elevated.

[Katie Greifeld]

They have a burger, for example. The person I was dining with had a burger that looks delicious. Maybe I'll get it tonight.

[Matt Levine]

Wait.

[Katie Greifeld]

Now I want to come invite Matt and I to the pub. Someone from J.P. morgan.

[Matt Levine]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, so first of all, I think I was joking about the foam head of Jamie Dimon. Like I thought you were anticipating that. The latte art and The Guinness would include Jamie Dimon's face, but it didn't.

[Katie Greifeld]

So there's definitely latte art. I believe the two options that were offered to the person I was with who did drink a Guinness were a latte art of the building itself or the M for Morgan's. And the drink came out with the M for Morgan's. But maybe tonight I'll see latte art of the building itself, because I think that sounds really cool. It's a beautiful building. I've said that so many times.

[Matt Levine]

Okay, but. So you didn't get a Guinness, which, first of all, didn't get a Guinness. And second, when you order a Guinness tonight. Yeah, Jamie diamond face.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'm gonna ask for it.

[Matt Levine]

All right. Wait, you say it was very normal for a pub or for like, a lobby?

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, it was beautiful. Cause it's on the 13th floor, so the viewers are awesome. But it felt like standalone thing. It didn't feel like I'm at a bar in an office building, if that makes sense.

[Matt Levine]

Probably a standalone thing. Standalone Irish pub or standalone elevated Irish pub kind of a restaurant. Yeah, I want to go.

[Katie Greifeld]

But they had televisions with sports on, that sort of thing. I wonder what sports we'll be playing tonight. I love watching it. Distantly.

[Matt Levine]

I really want to go to Morgan's as my regular sports bar.

[Katie Greifeld]

Hopefully someone will invite us.

[Matt Levine]

And we don't want to be invited. I just want to, like.

[Katie Greifeld]

You have to be invited.

[Matt Levine]

I know. That's the problem. You can't just, like, drop in, have a beer.

[Katie Greifeld]

No, on the 14th floor.

[Matt Levine]

The J.P. morgan offices.

[Katie Greifeld]

But I go on Thursdays now, so if someone wants to invite us for next Thursday, I'm free. So is Matt.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. Yeah, let's do it. Hello and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast. Your weekly podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm Matt Levine and I write the Money Stuff Col for Bloomberg Opinion.

[Katie Greifeld]

And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television.

[Matt Levine]

Our script says. What are we talking about today, Katie?

[Katie Greifeld]

Oh, man. Do you want to start with stars or gold stars? It's more than stars at this point. We were going to talk about SpaceX. Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

SpaceX is doing an IPO possibly June 9th.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

To prepare for that IPO. Reuters reported just before we recorded this podcast that they are going to merge with Xai.

[Katie Greifeld]

They're in mergers.

[Matt Levine]

Sure, why not?

[Katie Greifeld]

Which is just one man talking to himself, I think.

[Matt Levine]

No, it's like.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's more than that.

[Matt Levine]

It's not. Not One man talking to himself. But, like, Probably Xai and SpaceX each have some very tired lawyers who. And Elon Musk is like, let's merge them. They have some discussions about smush them together. Questions like, at what valuation?

[Katie Greifeld]

And a gazillion.

[Matt Levine]

A gazillion. Right. So I have no idea. I haven't even read the story. But there is at least some sense that there are merger talks between SpaceX and Xai, which I remember not that long ago when people were like, tesla should merge with xai. Well, Tesla we launched, which just did an investment, actually. Both SpaceX and Tesla both committed to invest in Xai, right?

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, I believe so. I know for sure that Tesla on their earnings day, which was this Wednesday, said that it would invest $2 billion.

[Matt Levine]

In XAI after a shareholder proposal that got sort of tepid ish support. They were like, yeah, let's do it.

[Katie Greifeld]

I do.

[Matt Levine]

It's all the same stuff. It's all AI.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's the convergence of the Musk verse, which is fun. I also love this because I forgot until today that AI merged with X. So SpaceX, in a sense, is merging.

[Matt Levine]

Successor company to Twitter, right?

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

Right. Elon Musk might be re ipoing Twitter, to be fair, and this is not the right way to do the math.

[Katie Greifeld]

No.

[Matt Levine]

But if he bought Twitter for, let's say, $44 billion and will soon re IPO it at a $1.5 trillion valuation, raising $50 billion in the largest IPO ever, it's incredible. It'll be like, okay, you win, buddy. You win.

[Katie Greifeld]

You're man.

[Matt Levine]

He took Twitter private at $44 billion, and I was like, that's too high. He's taking it public again at $1.5 trillion.

[Katie Greifeld]

It is.

[Matt Levine]

That's not really what's happening here, but.

[Katie Greifeld]

It is really beautiful. I'm trying to find the rationale. As lined out in the Reuters story, it has to do with building data centers in space.

[Matt Levine]

Data centers in space. That's definitely right. The synergies are clear.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, it's obvious.

[Matt Levine]

Data centers in space. And SpaceX does space index now. Yeah. All right.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, there was an interesting note. According to Reuters, some XAI executives could be given the option to receive cash instead of SpaceX stock as part of the deal, which I thought was interesting. If you work at XAI, would you rather take cash or take SpaceX shares if you had the option to?

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. I mean, this is the thing that people talk about with the Musk Empire, Right. There's been, like, expanding and Contracting. Right. Like Tesla did acquire the solar company a while back, Stack and then X and XAI emerge. So sometimes the musk companies combine and sometimes there are new musk companies. And in general, it's a good idea to motivate people to work on stuff by giving them stock in the stuff they work on. That's one reason to have different companies. The AI people get paid in AI stock and the car people get paid in Tesla stock and the rocket people get paid in SpaceX stock. And if you mush them all together, then people have less direct impact on their own compensation and so there's maybe less motivation. So maybe if you're an XAI AI researcher, you're like, I don't know anything about rockets. I don't get paid for, like, rocket launches.

[Katie Greifeld]

This is surely the top.

[Matt Levine]

I want to. Well, sure, you might think that, but you might just think like, I want to get paid cash for my AI contributions and not have to worry about rockets.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

So the FC reported that they're aiming to go in June because on June 8th and 9th, Venus and Jupiter will have some sort of conjunction. And that would be cool.

[Katie Greifeld]

That would be cool.

[Matt Levine]

Now, June 9 also is 6 9, which, I'm sorry I didn't got a big eye roll there, but.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, I can't believe I didn't put that together until you saw it.

[Matt Levine]

I know, right? It's like one of these things where it's like, tee hee hee hee, the planets are lining up, but really we're going on six nine.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's horrible.

[Matt Levine]

It's horrible. There's no evidence that they're going on six. I mean, it's just like that's, you know, Elon Musk probably chuckled about it. Anyway, I will say I wrote about this and I was like, you know, it's interesting that the position of the stars is motivating Elon Musk's decisions. Although as I talk about it, I'm increasingly convinced that the number six nine is motivating his decisions. I use the word astrology and someone emailed me to be like, elon Musk is interested in astronomy, but that's not astrology. And it's interesting because it's not like signs of the zodiac. Astronomy is the science of looking at where the stars are. And astrology is the superstitious belief that, like, human activities are influenced by and like, you should, you know, make decisions based on the positions of the stars and the planets. And I feel like it's fair for me to say astrology here.

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, on this podcast, I'm declaring you correct.

[Matt Levine]

I think it's not quite superstition. It's more like jokey fake superstition.

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, I would posit that the position of the stars influences all of our behaviors.

[Matt Levine]

Just a million would. Yeah, Right.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yes, of course.

[Matt Levine]

Right. But I don't think Elon Musk would if you put him to it. I think that he probably doesn't really think that, but he will act like he thinks it for the joke.

[Katie Greifeld]

You know, we've talked about this before. How I would love to sit someone down and just have an honest conversation.

[Matt Levine]

With them about astrology.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, I would like to know, like, are you truly interested in that?

[Matt Levine]

In what?

[Katie Greifeld]

In, like. Do you really think.

[Matt Levine]

I feel like he's interested in something.

[Katie Greifeld]

Is it about 6, 9, or is it about the alignment of the planets? I want to believe that.

[Matt Levine]

I don't think he cares. I don't think he thinks that the alignment of the planets is auspicious and will therefore get him a better IPO price. I think he's like, oh, planets, cool.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, well, he's right there. Yeah, they are cool.

[Matt Levine]

Right? It is kind of a motivating factor for building a space rocket company.

[Katie Greifeld]

I also said to you earlier today that we're entering the Year of the Horse.

[Matt Levine]

Oh, yes, that's right. Sorry. Now we'll talk about your astrological interests.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, thank you. I'm super psyched.

[Matt Levine]

Is it strictly because you like horses and the Year of the Horse seems like something you'd like or like? Is there more strategical information, more to it?

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, so I very glancingly know about the Year of the Horse.

[Matt Levine]

Okay.

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[Matt Levine]

About the other years.

[Katie Greifeld]

More. More than the other years.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. Well, you're not just like a general connoisseur of like.

[Katie Greifeld]

No, no, no. I mean, it's served to me all over social media that this is going to be the Year of the Horse. For obvious reasons. Apparently the Year of the Horse is going to be a lot better than the year that we just exited.

[Matt Levine]

Wow, that's good news.

[Katie Greifeld]

Which, personally, I had a terrible Year of the Whatever.

[Matt Levine]

Things are looking up for me.

[Katie Greifeld]

We just went through. But the year, the horse in general is all about putting that behind you and excelling. At least that is my understanding. Looking at social media, not an expert. I'm sure someone out there listening right now is steeped in this.

[Matt Levine]

I assume it's good to spend more time with horses, but maybe that's not true.

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, listen, I got. I got some horses you can hang out with specifically. Matt no one. Not the listeners, not the general audience.

[Matt Levine]

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[Katie Greifeld]

Foreign let's talk about Gold. I loved this story. Tether apparently is buying just tons and tons of gold.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, literally.

[Katie Greifeld]

And I love this because Tether isn't trying to become a bank, it's trying to become a central bank.

[Matt Levine]

That's so weird.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's so cool.

[Matt Levine]

Tether is crazy because like the very basic business of like taking, you know, $100 billion, almost $200 billion of investor cash, parking it in T bills, clipping the coupons at the T bills, doing nothing else, and being insanely rich with the simplest business model in the world is so good. And they're like, no, let's make it more complicated. So they have reserves backing tethers. And I was looking at the reserves today. They have $174 billion of U.S. dollar tether liabilities outstanding. They have a, a $7 billion equity cushion. So their reserves are like $7 billion more than their liabilities. And they have 7% of their reserves. So more than their equity cushion in precious metals. So instead of just buying treasury bills, just keeping your dollars backed by dollars, they're like, let's have some of our dollars backed by gold. Which is in some ways a crazy thing to do because you don't need to take any basis risk. You can just put it in dollars and live a nice life. But in other words it's like, yeah, that's like a traditional central banks back some of their liabilities with gold. Yeah, it's like fine. So I sort of understand why they do it. Those are, by the way, some of their liabilities are backed by bitcoin, which is also insane. But it's just like they've transcended regular finance and become a central bank. And they're like, yeah, we have some big stash of gold in a vault in Switzerland.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'm so into it. A nuclear bunker in Switzerland that was in the lead. So obviously I was already going to love this story. They are the largest known holder of gold outside of banks and nation. Bloomberg interviewed the CEO and he said he predicted that Washington's geopolitical rivals would launch a gold packed alternative to the dollar, which I also love.

[Matt Levine]

One thing that they're doing here is they're backing liabilities with assets. I'm like, yeah, the assets. You don't need to diversify the assets, but perhaps you want to for some reason. But another thing they're doing is they're skating where the puck is going and they're like, eventually gold will be the future of currency, so we better hold gold. Which like, okay, whatever.

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, look, time is a flat.

[Matt Levine]

Circle to be fair to them. Yeah, they have been better at predicting the future of currency than for example, I have been. So you know, if they think it's going to be gold, you should listen to them.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, maybe we should, you know, not be smiling so much just to put into context how much gold they're buying. They bought over 70 tons of gold over the course of last year for their reserves. All told, they own around 140 tons of gold, which is a lot. And it's interesting that they stepped up their buying and gold has been going insane. Central banks and ETF investors are collectively buying more than 1500 tons of the metal. But still, you introduced, like, a new central bank. Yes, exactly. Buying gold, sort of price insensitive. So it's definitely a catalyst behind the rally.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, it's great.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's so great. I just want to say that the CEO also said so. The former nuclear bunker in Switzerland. It's guarded by multiple layers of thick steel doors. He described it as a James Bond kind of place. It's crazy.

[Matt Levine]

I want to go there. Well, I want there to be a tether gold heist story. Because, like, okay, they're a central bank. They're the largest, whatever, holder of gold, but they have ties to the Mighty Ducks. They're a somewhat comical organization. And for Tether to have a nuclear bunker filled with 140 tons of gold, that's really good.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

The person who robs that will not.

[Katie Greifeld]

Be, like, it's like, at the base of some mountain.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

I want to go.

[Matt Levine]

It's gonna be like a Rob Schneider movie. Yeah, it's gonna be really good.

[Katie Greifeld]

Someone's writing the screenplay. It's cool that they're in Switzerland. I cover ETFs, as you know, and a lot of the gold ETFs, including State Street's GLD, which is the biggest one. They have their vaults underneath London.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

And that's also a place you can't go. No, but I love thinking about where. Where the gold is physically stored. Just delights me.

[Matt Levine]

Why?

[Katie Greifeld]

I don't know. It's just.

[Matt Levine]

So the Swiss Mountain is.

[Katie Greifeld]

I don't know if I've told this story on the podcast before, but I was talking to someone at State street about the vault at the time when, like, GLD was seeing crazy inflows. And I was like, is the vault getting crowded? And they said, no, Gold is really small. It just weighs a lot. And I was like, oh, yeah, for sure. And then had to quickly move on.

[Matt Levine]

Right. I like the idea of, like, welcome to our enormous pile of gold. And you open the door to, like, a cavernous, echoing vault, and, like, in the corner, there's just, like, a little pile. And it's like, I was expecting 40 tons.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. Like, I was expecting, like, Harry Potter at Gringotts, where they open the door, and it's just, like, piles and piles of gold.

[Matt Levine]

Maybe it is for tether.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, it sounds like they're on a mission to get there.

[Matt Levine]

Right. Like, I feel like they would give you, like, a goblin powered Car ride to see their gold.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

As part of their transparency slash comedy. Like they would do that.

[Katie Greifeld]

I think that's why I find it so charming, because that's exactly what I'm picturing.

[Matt Levine]

Right.

[Katie Greifeld]

Just the ride from Harry Potter Fed.

[Matt Levine]

Is not gonna give you, like, fun.

[Katie Greifeld]

It'd be very sober.

[Matt Levine]

Right. When Tether takes you on a tour of their gold vault, there'll be like some loops on the track. Right. It's gonna be like, it's gonna be a little exciting.

[Katie Greifeld]

Maybe a smoke machine. Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

Also interesting. So Tether doesn't just want to buy gold, it also wants to trade it. And this is interesting. I didn't realize this, but. So hsbc, it lost two senior gold traders to Tether.

[Matt Levine]

Sure.

[Katie Greifeld]

To Tether. They hired them. So they have big ambitions here.

[Matt Levine]

Right. I think constantly, if I ran Tether, I would have so few ambitions because it just gives you billions of dollars a quarter for free. Like, oh, here's your billions of dollars. And then you're like, this is only tangentially relevant, but you know Brad Jacobs, the CEO of various logistics companies like qxo, I think they have the X's in them. Yep. I think we've talked about him on this podcast. Probably one of his amazing things is that he wrote a book called how to Make a Few Billion Dollars, which is a perfect book to listen to.

[Katie Greifeld]

He's out with a sequel.

[Matt Levine]

He's out with a sequel. The sequel, which I just found on my desk, is titled how to Make a Few More Billion dollars, which I love the conceit that you bought his previous book. You read his previous book, you took the advice to heart. You put it into practice. It worked. You made a few billion dollars. And here you are with a few billion dollars, thinking, I would like a few more billion dollars, but I don't know how to make that. And then Brad Jacobs comes along with another book and it's like, how to make a few more billion dollars. And you're like, oh, okay, that's how I'll make a few more. The people who made a few billion dollars are not really reading this book to make a few more billion dollars. But it's such a lovely concede. Anyway, Tether are the people who are like, how do I make a few more billion dollars?

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, yeah. They want to trade it and compete with the actual banks and just a little bit more on the physicality of gold. I love it so much. The company is exploring how to make its process of buying gold more efficient because according to the CEO Buying one to two tons per week is a very sizable amount.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, that seems right.

[Katie Greifeld]

And you never think about it because I'll never.

[Matt Levine]

I never think about how much it would cost in transaction costs for me to buy a ton of gold every.

[Katie Greifeld]

Week and then transport it to your bunker. Yeah, what a charming story.

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[Matt Levine]

So when companies run into debt trouble, they do what people call liability management exercises, or LMEs, where they try to reduce their debt. Often the way that works is like they go out to some creditors and try to pick them off. They try to play one set of creditors against another. There are deals to be done where one set of creditors gets good new collateral at the expense of other sets of creditors. People sometimes use the term lender on lender violence or creditor on creditor violence. And so what happened at this company called Optimum or Altice usa, is that all of the creditors signed an agreement saying they wouldn't do that. They would all work together. They would only do a deal with the company if two thirds of them voted to agree to the deal. And Altice or Optimum didn't like this and they sued the creditors saying, you're not allowed to do that. That's an antitrust violation. You're all agreeing to basically fix prices. You're all agreeing that you won't trade your debt with us at anything less than the price you all agree on. Which I don't know. I've never been an antitrust expert. I find that intuitive. But also I'm very sympathetic with the creditors because when companies run into trouble, the creditors should get together to divvy things up. But anyways, I don't know what's going to happen with the case, but it was brought by Optimum's law firm, a litigation boutique called Kellogg Hanson. But their main lawyer was Kirkland and Ellis, the giant law firm that does a lot of restructuring work and a lot of private equity M and A work.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

And what happened next is that Kirkland has resigned from representing Optimum and its debt work. And the impression that everyone has, and there have been some Financial Times articles about this, the impression is that Kirkland may have been sort of behind this lawsuit. Kirkland had been suggesting the theory that it's not okay for creditors to all get together and sign a cooperation agreement. And the creditors really didn't like that. And they came to Kirkland and said something. Yeah, that might rhyme with, hey, if you're involved with this, we won't work with you anymore. And Kirkland, which gets a lot of business from the asset managers in the complaint, decided Maybe we can't represent Optimum anymore. Which is an interesting. The alleged problem here is that these creditors have too much market power, and they all gang up together. And so Optimum can't refinance its debt. And then when Optimum also loses its lawyers, it's like, maybe they did have a lot of market power.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, I was a little bit confused because as you said, the lawsuit was filed by this boutique firm. The creditors believe that Kirkland had been behind the lawsuit. Did Kirkland basically say that? Yes, we were. If they resigned as legal counsel.

[Matt Levine]

I don't think they said, yes, we were or not directly say that. They said in public, creditors should be careful about forming these committees because there might be an antitrust risk. Prominent Kirkland restructuring partner had said that. And so whether or not they were like, ooh, we were secretly behind it, it's like they might have agreed with some of the legal theories. I don't know that they conceded that they were the people who pushed for the lawsuit to be brought. But in any case, working with a company that sued all of the big private credit lenders for doing this is like, maybe whether or not they were behind the lawsuit, if they were pressured to quit the company, that suggests that you're not allowed to work for companies that sue creditors like that.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, the FT was talking about this. They called this a gut check moment, that Kirkland blinked when the masters of the universe threatened to take their vast business elsewhere. Everyone in high finance and big law has noticed.

[Matt Levine]

I used to be at an investment bank, and we had lawyers on our deals, and the companies had lawyers. And sometimes the company's lawyers were people who often represented us, who often worked for banks and sometimes worked for companies. If you're a company, that's good. It's good to have a law firm that knows the banks well because they're repeat players. They know a lot. They know the banks. But it's also a little unnerving because if you're the lawyers who regularly work with the banks, you might not work that hard on behalf of the company at the expense of the banks, because, you know you'll be working for the banks again. And there's something like that here, right? Like, if you're a company that runs into distress and like, you hire a big law firm that regularly works with the biggest asset managers, like, that's good. They have connections. They're like. They have clout. But it's also like, are they looking out for you, or are they looking out for the asset managers who regularly hire Them.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, I have to imagine that's a more urgent question for a lot of those companies. Now in the wake of this, the FT also points out that in December they reported that many of the same private capital firms that were upset at Kirkland over the optimum fireworks are also upset at JP Morgan for providing a $2 billion rescue loan that shifted some of the collateral out of reach of the existing optimum creditors. I don't know how you pressure JP Morgan though in this situation.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, I think it's kind of standard for banks to be involved in loans that credit funds find annoying. I can tell you the classic answer to how you get your revenge on the banks, which is when citigroup wires you $900 million by accident, you keep them money.

[Katie Greifeld]

Just keep it.

[Matt Levine]

Which is the same thing. Citi worked on a financing that the creditors of that company didn. This revlon the creditors didn't like. And then Citi accidentally wired money to the creditors and they're like, well, we're going to keep that. But JP Morgan, that's a really special. Probably more careful.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, that's a really special situation. Seems unique to Citi in some ways.

[Matt Levine]

Speaking of JP Morgan.

[Katie Greifeld]

Oh yeah, they're supposed to work harder. Yeah, brutal. I lost that in my copious notes. So why don't you tell me about it?

[Matt Levine]

There's a Bloomberg News story. Not like full of details, but basically JP Morgan senior leadership quote has told the firm's investment bankers that they need to work harder to close the gap with rivals including Goldman Sachs on mergers and acquisitions. The co heads of global banking said that the group had underperformed an M and a in 2025 and that improvement was needed to start winning back market share. I assume that most bankers get some version of this speech most years, right? You can always work a little harder.

[Katie Greifeld]

Seems pretty standard.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, but I wrote this. Every so often you read stories about banks telling their bankers actually you need to work less hard and do fewer deals. So sometimes that is compliance. When a Swiss bank gets in a lot of trouble for bringing in a lot of bad clients, they have a meeting being like maybe bring in fewer clients. But some of it is there's a lot of wasted work at banks. And every so often a bank will look around and be like, like, look, you're spinning your wheels doing a lot of unpaid work for small time clients, hoping that one day they will give you a small mandate where you'll get a small fee. Don't do that. Spend more time focusing on clients who will actually give you a deal and pay you a big fee and just spend less time spinning your wheels. I always love reading those stories. But in practice, when you're a banker and you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket, and if you're only trying to get the SpaceX IPO and you don't get it, then your year is ruined. But if you've you got five other irons in the fire where some small utility company will pay you half a million dollars to do a credit deal, that's something. And so often you do read stories just because they're counterintuitive about bankers being told not to work harder, to chase more clients. But this is the more normal version. This is, yeah, just do more deals.

[Katie Greifeld]

Maybe the pendulum will swing in a couple years.

[Matt Levine]

It always swings, but yeah, but I think if you're losing market share, you got to just work harder. I also love that there's no differentiated strategy. How do you get more deals? Well, you work harder, get on more.

[Katie Greifeld]

Planes, shake more hands, focus on this sector.

[Matt Levine]

More babies. Just do it. Just do more talking to clients and then the deals will come, which is probably true.

[Katie Greifeld]

How psyched do you think the Goldman M and A bankers were reading this story?

[Matt Levine]

I'm sure they got to talk. Being like, you need to work harder, to work harder. There's no standing still, yelled out to work harder.

[Katie Greifeld]

Keep feeding the beast.

[Matt Levine]

Right. Maybe they think, oh no, JP Morgan is going to work harder. Maybe not.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'd be pretty psyched.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, it's like a 30 second moment of victory and then you're like, pick.

[Katie Greifeld]

Back up the phone. Sometimes that happens in journalism. You know, you're told to write fewer stories, write better ones. It's only happened to me a few times.

[Matt Levine]

I get told that a lot. Right. Do you ever have the experience of, like, you learn that, that some competitor has been told to work harder to keep up with you? I feel like, no, that's not really.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, that hasn't happened to me. It sounds like maybe it happened to you.

[Matt Levine]

No, it happened to Goldman in the hypothetical.

[Katie Greifeld]

All right, good stuff.

[Matt Levine]

And that was the Money Stuff podcast. I'm Matt Levine.

[Katie Greifeld]

And I'm Katie Greifeld.

[Matt Levine]

You can find my work by subscribing to the Money stuff newsletter on bloomberg.com.

[Katie Greifeld]

And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day on the close between 3 and 5pm Eastern.

[Matt Levine]

We'd love to hear from you. You can send an email to moneypodlumberg.net Ask us a question and we might answer it on the air.

[Katie Greifeld]

You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review. It helps more people find the show.

[Matt Levine]

The Money Stuff podcast is produced by Anna Mazarakis, Moses Andam and Alexis Hot.

[Katie Greifeld]

Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples.

[Matt Levine]

Amy Keen is our executive producer. Thanks for listening to the Money Stuff podcast. We'll be back next week with more stuff.

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[Matt Levine]

They don't do that.

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