Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: Fat Wallet: Tariffs, Mergers, Brands
Date: November 7, 2025
Hosts: Matt Levine & Katie Greifeld

Episode Overview

This episode of "Money Stuff: The Podcast" dives deep into the intersection of Wall Street, regulatory drama, and, as usual, some good-natured banter. Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld discuss three headline themes: the fate of Trump-era tariffs at the Supreme Court, the high-stakes corporate battle over obesity drug maker Medcera, and the ongoing fallout—and occasional absurdity—of corporate malfeasance, focusing on the First Brands bankruptcy scandal.

1. Opening Banter & Bad Luck in the City

(01:19 – 03:00)

• Katie shares her rough week dealing with “gross things” in the city: stepping in oatmeal and dog feces.
• Matt empathizes but jokes that moving to the suburbs hasn't shielded him from similar incidents.
• Sets the episode’s informal, wry tone.

Notable Moment:

• Katie, weary: “I'm so upset. I hate this city... I'm just. I'm worn down.” (02:06)

2. Trump’s Tariffs and the Supreme Court Showdown

(03:06 – 12:03)

Issue at Stake

• The Supreme Court’s oral arguments about the legality of Trump’s universal tariffs on imports, which hinge on the 1977 International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA).
• Debate centers on whether these tariffs are actually taxes—a power reserved for Congress in the Constitution.

Key Discussion Points

• Legal Arguments:
  • Matt: "Tariffs are taxes because they are. And the U.S. constitution says that only Congress can impose taxes."
    (04:24)
  • Trump’s legal team argues tariffs are not meant to raise revenue, echoing a stance that “the fact that they raise revenue is only incidental.”
    (05:02)
• Skepticism from the Bench:
  • Katie: "It seems like skepticism was the word of the day. I think almost every major—"
    (03:51)
  • Chief Justice John Roberts (quoted by Katie): “The tariffs were, quote, an imposition of taxes on Americans. And that has always been the core power of Congress.”
    (05:49)
  • Justices Gorsuch and Barrett (Trump appointees) also asked skeptical questions.
  • Matt explains Gorsuch’s particular legal interests: “Neil Gorsuch believes in [the non-delegation doctrine] and has tried to find violations of it... that would perhaps exceed the ability of Congress to delegate.”
    (06:35)
• Major Questions & Refunds:
  • John Roberts’ “major questions doctrine” indicates Congress must clearly delegate any large new power—here, the power to impose tariffs.
  • Katie raises the practical question: if tariffs are overturned, would refunds be required?
    • Matt: “Unscrambling the egg is really hard. And I don't know what will happen... I will say that you could imagine the government being like, it would be impossible to pay refunds and that's a reason not to strike this down. And they haven't done that.” (08:41)

Wall Street Angle

• Hedge funds have bought up potential tariff refund claims, speculating on the Supreme Court outcome.
  • Matt: “Some banks have been arranging trades where hedge funds will buy refund claims at 40 cents on the dollar. And if the Supreme Court strikes them down, then they get their money.” (09:17)
  • Katie: “It would be more interesting if the tariffs had been passed on to consumers and then they were like, ultimately a transfer of money from consumers to hedge funds, but instead I think they're just a transfer of money from companies to hedge funds.” (09:52)
• The long-term economic implications if tariffs are struck down: possible impact on deficit and market uncertainty.

3. Novo vs. Pfizer: Obesity Drug M&A Drama

(14:00 – 18:58)

The Story

• Medcera, a U.S. biotech company, has developed a promising obesity drug that’s completed mid-stage trials but isn’t on the market yet.
• Pfizer agreed to buy Medcera after its own obesity drug efforts stumbled.
• Novo Nordisk (maker of Ozempic and Wegovy) then swooped in with a higher offer, prompting antitrust concerns because Novo already dominates the sector.

Unique Deal Structure

• Novo proposes paying Medcera's shareholders upfront—even before regulatory approval—by “dividending out” billions immediately, with Novo receiving a clawback right if the deal fails.
  • Matt: “Basically, they're just paying for the company even if they can't end up buying the company, which is wild.” (16:11)
  • Katie: “It's a very bold move by Novo... I will put an asterisk there, that they have ceded market share to Eli Lilly in the US. So they're trying to regain ground.” (16:15 – 16:31)

The Antitrust & “Cynical Take”

• Pfizer alleges Novo is “catch and killing”—deliberately locking up Medcera in hopeful regulatory limbo to block Pfizer’s acquisition and preserve Novo’s market dominance.
  • Matt: “It's very weird to pay for the company upfront, even if you might not get it.” (17:28)
  • Katie: Novo says they're interested because of a specific amylin-targeting drug (a new obesity treatment direction), noting Eli Lilly’s recent promising clinical results. (17:49)
• National champions and government intervention possibilities are also floated, with patriotic overtones.
  • Matt: “Pfizer also has a sort of patriotic argument... Shouldn't an American company end up buying this American obesity drug rather than giving it to the Danish?” (18:28)
  • Katie jokes about potential government interference via a “golden share” or revenue cut. (18:50)

4. Brands and Bankruptcy: Patrick James & First Brands

(19:49 – 27:49)

The Ridiculous Spending

• Patrick James, CEO and owner of auto parts conglomerate First Brands, faces a bankruptcy suit alleging he looted the company for personal luxuries:
  • “17 exotic cars, lavish homes in Malibu and the Hamptons, six-figure bills for a celebrity chef.”
  • Katie, dryly: “Talk about a fat wallet. So stupid.” (19:56)

Corporate Governance & Fraud Dynamics

• Matt compares this drama to typical bankruptcy proceedings, including the Sam Bankman-Fried/FTX debacle: after bankruptcy, new management scours for fraud, sometimes incentivized to depict previous owners in the worst light.
  • “You have to be a little skeptical. Right. Because they're running the company on behalf of the creditors. Right. And like... he used it as his personal piggy bank... Of course he did because he owned the company. And so he didn't like follow a lot of like formalities and like when he needed money, he just sent himself some money from the company.” (21:33)
  • Katie: “If I own 100% of an auto parts supplier, I can take the money out and buy cars.” (22:05)
• However, real fraud is alleged: invoice factoring abuse, double-pledging.
  • Matt: “They would just change the numbers on the lists to get more money. And that's fraud. If that's true, that's really bad.” (22:45)
  • Katie: “Like, much larger numbers. Adding a digit, maybe two.” (23:46)
  • Matt: “They batched together $2 million worth of invoices... and they changed them to make them $11 million, and then they borrowed $11 million. That's really bad.” (23:51)

Broader Market Impact

• Concerns about due diligence in invoice financing—UBS is liquidating funds exposed to First Brands.
• Matt suggests modern technology could improve vetting (e.g., blockchain): “I will say I got at least two emails that included the word blockchain.” (26:10)
• Katie: “Blockchain does seem like an obvious answer here, but don't put that in there.” (26:37)
• Reflection on the cyclical memory of credit markets:
  • Matt: “The credit market has no memory whatsoever.” (27:47)
  • Katie: “Maybe that'll happen with invoice financing.” (27:49)

5. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “Skepticism was the word of the day.” — Katie Greifeld (03:51)
• “If you just went to the Supreme Court, you know, a year ago and asked them, would this be legal? I think they'd all say no... But it's already happened, Right?” — Matt Levine (08:33)
• “I would be interested in a tariff refund hedge fund case.” — Matt Levine (10:52)
• “Basically, they're just paying for the company even if they can't end up buying the company, which is wild.” — Matt Levine (16:11)
• “Shouldn't an American company end up buying this American obesity drug rather than giving it to the Danish?” — Matt Levine (18:28)
• “They batched together $2 million worth of invoices...and changed them to $11 million...” — Matt Levine (23:51)
• “The credit market has no memory whatsoever.” — Matt Levine (27:47)

6. Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening banter: gross things in the city – (01:19 – 03:00)
• Trump tariffs & Supreme Court discussion – (03:06 – 12:03)
• Medcera/Pfizer/Novo M&A battle – (14:00 – 18:58)
• First Brands bankruptcy/corporate fraud discussion – (19:49 – 27:49)

Tone & Style

The episode’s style is witty yet detail-oriented, full of dry humor (“Talk about a fat wallet. So stupid.”), and skepticism about both government and corporate actors. Matt and Katie’s rapport keeps technical details engaging and accessible.

This summary conveys the episode’s structure, key insights, memorable moments, and the deadpan wit that hallmark "Money Stuff," making it valuable for listeners and non-listeners alike.