Key Beast Risk: BMNR, 10%, OLMA

Summary

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Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: Key Beast Risk: BMNR, 10%, OLMA
Date: January 16, 2026
Host: Matt Levine
Co-host: Katie Greifeld

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Episode Overview

This episode of Money Stuff navigates three major financial storylines with Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld’s signature wit:

• The $200 million investment in Mr. Beast’s “Beast Industries” by Bit Mine Immersion Technologies
• Donald Trump’s proposal to cap credit card interest rates at 10%, and the industry’s reaction
• An elaborate insider trading case involving healthcare stocks and biotech trials

The hosts blend technical finance insight, dry humor, and cultural commentary, exploring “key beast risk,” banking politics, and the ethics of trading on inside information.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mr. Beast, Bit Mine, and ‘Key Beast Risk’

(Starts ~02:20)

• Headline: "Mr. Beast nabs $200 million investment from Tom Lee's Bit Mine."
• Who is Mr. Beast?
  • YouTube juggernaut Jimmy Donaldson. “He's got an empire...a billionaire.” (Katie, 02:59)
• The Investment:
  • Bit Mine, formerly a Bitcoin miner, now mainly a crypto treasury holding $14B (mostly Ethereum), buying a stake in Beast Industries—not Mr. Beast the individual.
  • “That is largely an investment in the Beast himself.” (Matt, 03:21)
• About Bit Mine:
  • Pivoted from Bitcoin mining (cooling hardware in liquid “baths”) to a crypto treasury and Ethereum holdings.
  • “[They] pivoted away from being a miner to being a Treasury company, and they pivoted away from Bitcoin to being an Ethereum company.” (Matt, 04:24)
• Why Diversify into Content?
  • Crypto holdings aren’t the sure thing they were last year; so, treasury companies, flush with funds, are exploring big ticket investments outside pure crypto.
  • “Now if you put $14 billion of Ethereum in a pot, you trade to like, $13 billion, that's not as good a trade.” (Matt, 04:47)
• Strategic Rationale:
  • “Crypto treasury companies will all say, ‘We're not just an investment company...we are building a new digital asset infrastructure.’...One way is you give Mr. Beast, $200 million. And maybe...he says, 'Hey, guys, buy Ethereum.’” (Matt, 06:22, 06:52)
• Wider Trend:
  • “The move highlights the growing convergence between digital finance and the creator economy…as crypto native firms look to align with brands that dominate Gen Z and Gen Alpha.” (Katie quoting article, 06:12)

Notable Quotes:

• “Key man risk.” —Katie, corrected by Matt as “Key beast risk” (03:34)
• “We joke now, but he's going to run our lives. The Jeff Bezos of his time.” —Katie (08:00)

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2. Trump’s 10% Credit Card Rate Cap Proposal

(Starts ~10:33)

• Overview:
  • Donald J. Trump calls for capping credit card interest rates at 10%.
  • “His name is Donald J. Trump. He's the President of the United States and he would like to see those rates capped at 10%.” (Katie, 10:52)
• Political Context:
  • “It’s not a traditional Republican Party talking point...Elizabeth Warren introduced legislation sort of point. Like a Bernie Sanders kind of vibe.” (Matt, 11:14)
• Bank and Industry Reaction:
  • Banks warn this will shrink credit access for risky borrowers.
  • “They would probably do a lot less credit provision to those borrowers...You’d see a migration to credit cards being a less available product and for people with higher credit scores.” (Matt, 13:19)
• Bilt’s Opportunistic Move:
  • New credit cards unveiled at (limited) 10% rates to seize the moment.
  • “Bilt is seizing the moment, unveiling three new credit cards with interest rates capped at 10%.” (Katie, 15:36)
  • “Isn't it a one-year promotional rate?...That’s the really interesting thing about this.” (Matt, 15:44)
• Realistic Assessment:
  • Both hosts doubt any substantive change will happen immediately, joking about “the secret law in Donald Trump's head.”
    • “...what's the secret law in Donald Trump's head?” (Matt, 15:28)
• Broader Impact:
  • “It’s a great, like combination of politics and marketing” as banks mainly offer resistance, while Bilt leverages PR value. (Matt, 16:31)

Notable Quotes:

• “Would you borrow money from a Beast?” —Matt (08:22)
• “If you, if you're a bank...and then you're like 10% introductory rate on our new card like it's a little bit like people will notice that you're mostly not charging that.” —Matt (16:49)

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3. Outrageous Insider Trading in Healthcare/Biotech

(Starts ~20:31)

• The Case:
  • A trio of brothers, with connections to healthcare banking, allegedly ran a multifaceted insider trading and market manipulation scheme.
• Highlights:
  • Most profits came from trading on inside knowledge of healthcare M&A, courtesy of a Lazard banker's tips (“He would just tell his buddy...this deal is coming. And the buddy would allegedly trade options and made like $40 million.”) (Matt, 20:33)
  • Bribery for info: Rolex watches, PowerPoint help, and job search assistance rewarded the tipster.
• Biotech Market Manipulation:
  • Faked being doctors to glean info about a cancer drug trial, then spread misleading news via cancer support forums and Twitter to influence stock prices.
  • “They very subtly created fake profiles on cancer support sites and leaked it...then they took that and leaked it on Twitter and the stock went up.” (Matt, 23:48)
• Ethical Implications:
  • “It seems more evil...given that we're talking about like breast cancer drug trials.” (Katie, 24:01)
  • Could lead to more restrictions for patients/doctors engaged in trials, ultimately harming patient experiences.
• Culture of Insider Trading:
  • Discussion of what is or is not considered insider trading—e.g., could a passenger on a troubled Boeing flight buy puts on the airline?
  • Matt: “I think that’s fine...You’re using a product, right?...This is normal. People interact with the stock market. It’s like you experience the company’s products or services and then you trade on it.” (Matt, 25:52)

Notable Quotes:

• “...he's facing up to 25 years in prison or whatever and like half a PowerPoint.” —Matt (21:47)
• “The most valuable piece of advice probably would have been to stop insider trading.” —Katie (22:15)
• “For like the fake patients.” —Matt (25:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Mr. Beast Investment:

  • “Key man risk.” (Katie, 03:34), corrected: “Key beast risk.” (Matt, 03:35)
  • “Now what? Right? And the answer is, Mr. Beast, or some other weird answer that we’re going to find in the next couple of months.” (Matt, 05:44)
  • “We joke now, but [Mr. Beast]’s going to run our lives. The Jeff Bezos of his time.” (Katie, 08:00)

• On Credit Card Rate Caps:

  • “His name is Donald J. Trump...he would like to see those rates capped at 10%.” (Katie, 10:52)
  • “What’s the secret law in Donald Trump’s head?" (Matt, 15:28)
  • “I think the answer to what will happen on January 20th is nothing. But what if they're all arrested?” (Matt, 18:05)

• On Insider Trading Ethics:

  • “He’s facing up to 25 years in prison or whatever and like half a PowerPoint.” (Matt, 21:47)
  • “It seems more evil...given that we're talking about, like, breast cancer drug trials.” (Katie, 24:01)
  • “Hypothetically, if you were a patient and you took the drug and it worked...would that be insider trading? And the answer sort of depends...but also, no one's going to come after you. Come on.” (Matt, 25:24)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:20] — Mr. Beast’s $200 million investment from Bit Mine: creator economy meets crypto
• [05:36] — Crypto treasury companies’ “now what?” moment and zany 2026 headlines
• [08:00] — Beast Industries aims for finance with trademarks, possibly “the Jeff Bezos of his time”
• [10:33] — Trump proposes capping credit card rates at 10%; industry politics & reactions
• [13:19] — “Crown jewel” business of credit cards: would rate caps shrink risky lending?
• [15:36] — Bilt’s opportunistic 10% promotional rate credit cards
• [20:31] — Unpacking the elaborate healthcare insider trading case
• [24:01] — Ethical fallout of using fake patients/doctors in biotech trading
• [25:52] — Reddit hypotheticals: insider trading or just product feedback?

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Tone & Personality

Matt and Katie’s dynamic is both analytical and playful:

• Matt’s deadpan, technical humor: “Key beast risk.”
• Katie’s pop-culture anchoring (“Timothee Chalamet and Kylie Jenner at the Globes!”; “I mostly just watch SNL clips…”)
• Regular gentle self-deprecation about podcast status (“No Amy Poehler, but…”) and generational distance (“I’ve never felt more old. This whole conversation…”)

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This episode offers more than recaps of financial news: it’s a real exploration of how crypto, content creation, and banking policy are colliding in strange, headline-grabbing ways in 2026. The hosts consistently demystify technical finance with humor and skepticism, pulling back the curtain on both the logic (and illogic) behind emerging economic trends. Expect lighthearted banter, sharp analysis, and a lens that always keeps an eye on “what’s next?”

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Advertisements, intro/outro, and sponsor segments have been omitted for clarity and focus on show content.

Transcript

[Matt Levine]

Harvard Business School Executive education delivers a world class learning experience to energize aspiring and established change makers. Prepare for the next elevation for your organization and yourself. Learn more at HBS Me Breakthrough. That's HBS Me Breakthrough.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news. I am always looking for companies to support that are ethical. And let's be honest, the phone companies we've all been stuck with are not that. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. You know, I travel constantly and supposedly I have international free roaming on Verizon, yet my phone bills are still 300, 400, and even $500 a month. It makes zero sense. So I switched to a company with actual ethics, Noble Mobile. And they pay you for staying off your phone. The more you unplug, the more money you save each month. And the most you'll ever pay is 50 bucks. Unlimited coverage when I need it, cash back when I don't. It was started by people I know and trust. So if you trust me and want to join my mission to stop being a phone addicted zombie, come along. Go to noble mobile.com Chelsea right now and try it for just 10 bucks. That's noble mobile.com Chelsea. Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.

[Matt Levine]

Katie, we haven't talked about this, but I watched five minutes, five randomly selected minutes of the Golden Globes last weekend.

[Katie Greifeld]

Oh, my God.

[Matt Levine]

And it happened to be the five minutes during which Snoop Dogg gave an award for best podcast. So.

[Katie Greifeld]

And we won.

[Matt Levine]

Something to aspire to. We did not win.

[Katie Greifeld]

Oh, shoot.

[Matt Levine]

We were not even. Whatever like seven tiers below nominated is. We weren't that either.

[Katie Greifeld]

Our faces weren't in a box on the screen. It was Amy Poehler. Who?

[Matt Levine]

I. It was Amy Poehler.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'm a huge fan. I thought you were gonna talk about Timothee Chalamet and Kylie Jenner, but I.

[Matt Levine]

I didn't see those five minutes.

[Katie Greifeld]

They're a PDA at award shows. I'm into it.

[Matt Levine]

Okay. Okay. Hello and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast, your weekly podcast where we talk about stuff related to money. I'm Matt Levine and I write the Money Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion.

[Katie Greifeld]

And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and an anchor for Bloomberg Television. We actually have a lot to talk about today. Some of it.

[Matt Levine]

All right, what should we talk about first?

[Katie Greifeld]

Do you want to talk about Mr. Beast?

[Matt Levine]

I guess. Yes. This is another pop cultural phenomenon that I am glancingly familiar with.

[Katie Greifeld]

I only read, really the headline, and I feel like that's all I need to read. Shall I read it for you.

[Matt Levine]

We're doing great. We're clearly the best podcast.

[Katie Greifeld]

Mr. Beast nabs $200 million investment from Tom Lee's Bit Mine. Mr. Beast, if you don't know, we're talking about Jimmy Donaldson, better known as Mr. Beast, who is a YouTube phenomenon. I've also not watched him. But he's a billionaire.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

He's got an empire.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

And now he's got $200 million from.

[Matt Levine]

Bitmine, another content creator who's more successful than we were. Yeah, he's got $200 million from Bit Mine. To me, the interesting thing is the Bit Mine more than the Mr. Beast, but go on. Well, I mean, Mr. Beast is a content creation juggernaut who.

[Katie Greifeld]

Also, I should point out, it's for a stake in Beast Industries. Not the man, not the Beast himself.

[Matt Levine]

No, no. He's a little synonymous. I do wonder a little right at this moment. I had not thought about it previously what the Beast industry's succession plan looks like, because he is, you know, that is largely an investment in the Beast himself.

[Katie Greifeld]

Key man risk.

[Matt Levine]

Key beast risk. No. But to me, the interesting thing is Bit Mine, which is a fabulous company. Its name is Bitmine Immersion Technologies.

[Katie Greifeld]

Like a nice bath.

[Matt Levine]

Yes. The reason it was named that is because one year ago, it had been for several years, a bitcoin mining operation whose differentiating factor was that it immersed its bitcoin mining rigs in a nice bath to keep them cool.

[Katie Greifeld]

Amazing.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. I don't know a lot about the physics of this. I assume it's not just. It's not just dunking computers in water. There's some more complicated thing on. But Immersion is in the name because they immersed. They bathed their bitcoin miners in cool, cool liquid.

[Katie Greifeld]

That is a really fascinating backstory because now they're better known as being the largest corporate holder of Ether.

[Matt Levine]

Yes. In the last year, they pivoted away from being a miner to being a Treasury company, and they pivoted away from Bitcoin to being an Ethereum company.

[Katie Greifeld]

Didn't pivot. The name.

[Matt Levine]

Didn't pivot the name. Didn't get around to that yet. But so now they're like a Treasury company with like, kind of $14 billion of mostly Ethereum, although also some dollar cash and some random stuff. And we've talked a lot about crypto treasury companies.

[Katie Greifeld]

Sure have.

[Matt Levine]

It was a great trade to do six months ago, nine months ago, which is roughly when they did it. You could put $14 billion of Ethereum in a pot and trade to $28 billion. And you realize this is great. Now if you put $14 billion of Ethereum in a pot, you trade to like, $13 billion, that's not as good a trade. There are a lot of people who run crypto treasury companies who are looking around and being like, what are we going to do with this? And one answer is, you have $14 billion. You can go make investments. One thing that seems to be happening here is they're like, wow, we have a lot of money, and just putting the next incremental dollar into Ethereum is not going to move the needle for us. But Mr. Beast is right there.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, it's pretty funny. I saw this read spike alert on my phone, and I think I described it to you in an email as like, it's very fun. 2026 headline Mad Libs.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

And for a crypto treasury company, you know, in the opening weeks of 2026, maybe not a bad diversification play.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, yeah. Crypto treasury companies are going to generate a lot of 2026 Mad Libs because, like, it's not as simple and obvious and good a trade as it was, but all these people have raised billions of dollars to do it. And now, like, now what? Right? And the answer is, Mr. Beast, or some other weird answer that we're going to find in the next couple of months.

[Katie Greifeld]

I do like like this line from the article, and it's written by my very good friend Valdana Hyrich, so I don't want to dunk on her. But the move highlights the growing convergence between digital finance and the creator economy as crypto native firms look to align with brands that dominate Gen Z and Gen Alpha. Attention. I didn't know that this convergence was happening.

[Matt Levine]

So my take on this is that they have a pot of money. Like the thing they were doing with the money doesn't make sense anymore. So they're doing other things with them. They're like in investing firm. But you can have another view, which is more like what Valdana wrote, which is that crypto treasury companies will all say, we're not just an investment company, we're not just a pot of money. We are building a new digital asset infrastructure. And one aspect of that, in a lot of the presentations that crypto treasury companies made, is investor education. We're going to increase adoption of whatever our preferred token is.

[Katie Greifeld]

Right.

[Matt Levine]

And so a lot of that was just like Michael Saylor putting up presentations and himself being an evangelist for Bitcoin. But there are other ways to do that. And one way is you give Mr. Beast, $200 million. And maybe in his vast content juggernaut, he says, hey, guys, buy Ethereum and maybe the price of Ethereum goes up and maybe that makes the price of your pot of Ethereum go up. I don't know, man.

[Katie Greifeld]

You forgot Saylor also posting AI generated images of himself in various inspiring poses.

[Matt Levine]

He's great. I mean, say it. He does it. He's great.

[Katie Greifeld]

He does it.

[Matt Levine]

He's either great or he does a lot of this sort of thing. But the people who. The other. Not micro, not strategy, crypto treasury companies, you know, they maybe need some help from, you know, the greatest content creator of his generation, I think they call them.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, that's the thing. I don't want to be Too glib about Mr. Beast, because Beast Industries, it oversees basically the YouTube business, which is YouTube's most watched series created.

[Matt Levine]

To be clear, we can't be glib. Like, we have a podcast and he has a better podcast.

[Katie Greifeld]

He certainly does.

[Matt Levine]

No Amy Poehler, but, like, you know.

[Katie Greifeld]

Also in October, Beast Industries filed a trademark application for Mr. Beast Financial, which lists services such as a cryptocurrency exchange or cryptocurrency exchange platform synergies everywhere. Also consumer lending. Yeah, so, I mean, we joke now, but he's going to run our lives. The Jeff Bezos of his time.

[Matt Levine]

Would you borrow money from a Beast?

[Katie Greifeld]

Someone would. Maybe these Gen Alpha people that we're talking about.

[Matt Levine]

I've never felt more old. This whole conversation I'm so enjoying. You're so much younger than I am.

[Katie Greifeld]

You know, I keep telling myself I'm going to watch a MrBeast YouTube video. And I'm always looking for things to watch on YouTube. I mostly just watch SNL clips and probably for market research or my job, it'd probably at this point be a good idea to watch a Mr. Beast video.

[Matt Levine]

Yes. If you come away from it thinking, boy, I better buy some Ether. Then let me know. Otherwise, don't.

[Katie Greifeld]

I'll text you.

[Matt Levine]

Harvard Business School Executive education delivers breakthrough learning for leaders. Stimulating classes led by faculty at the forefront of their fields. Topics that will define the future of business. Discussions that transform perspectives and ways of thinking and access to the brightest business minds on the planet. Learn more at HBS Me Breakthrough. That's HBS Me Breakthrough.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news. I am always looking for companies to support that are ethical. And let's be honest, the phone companies we've all been stuck with are not that. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. You know, I travel constantly and Supposedly I have international free roaming on Verizon, yet my phone bills are still 300, 400 and even $500 a it makes zero sense. So I switched to a company with actual ethics, Noble Mobile. And they pay you for staying off your phone. The more you unplug, the more money you save each month. And the most you'll ever pay is 50 bucks. Unlimited coverage when I need it, cash back when I don't. It was started by people I know and trust. So if you trust me and want to join my mission to stop being a phone addicted zombie, come along. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea or right now and try it for just 10 bucks. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea.

[Matt Levine]

You know who else is a consumer lender who you wouldn't want to borrow money from?

[Katie Greifeld]

Tell me.

[Matt Levine]

Every bank. Gosh, credit. Every credit card company. I don't know. My impression is that the average interest rate on credit cards is super high. 30%, 40%, 70%, 8,000%.

[Katie Greifeld]

I know someone high. I know someone who wants to change that. His name is Donald J. Trump. He's the President of the United States and he would like to see those rates capped at 10%.

[Matt Levine]

Do you have anything to say about this?

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean it's pretty amazing. This isn't a new topic, right? And this 10%, it's not like a.

[Matt Levine]

Traditional Republican Party talking point. It's like a more of a, you know, Elizabeth Warren introduced legislation sort of point. Like a Bernie Sanders kind of vibe.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, it's amazing because Bernie Sanders and AOC, I think they were advocating for like 15% originally, like back in 2019.

[Matt Levine]

I'll do 10.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. So President Trump undercut them at their own game, which is pretty amazing.

[Matt Levine]

Make it five.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, why not? The banks of course are, it seems like trying to one up each other on like doomsday predictions of what this would mean. Seems like the, the consensus is that they would basically offer less credit.

[Matt Levine]

Right. Like I, and I think a lot of financial columnists have bad intuitions around the credit component of credit cards because like I pay my balance every month, I get rewards. Credit cards are a way to get points and a convenient payment mechanism and not a credit mechanism. And the reason they're not a credit mechanism is because they charge like 20% interest. And if you want credit, there are other ways to get credit. For some people that's less true. And it's a standard form of consumer debt. And my assumption is that the rates are so high because one, the default risk is high and two, you're sort of getting adversely selected. Right. Because the people who carry a balance are the people who are like, not going to be able to pay it off. But there is like, research, you know, Brian Shearer at Vanderbilt has research on this that is kind of possibly underpinning some of these arguments saying that the credit card industry is so profitable that it could rein in interest rates, save billions for Americans and small businesses, and still make profits. Right. So, like there's, there's some fat to be cut. Here is something that some economists think. Although you will not hear that from banks.

[Katie Greifeld]

No, no, what you will hear from banks is the CFO of JP Morgan, for example, saying that if it were to happen, it would be very bad for consumers, very bad for the economy, and basically that their card operation would be a business that we would have to significantly change. And I've seen, you know, Bloomberg News basically describe the cards business as like the crown jewel of banks.

[Matt Levine]

Well, I mean, the crown jewel of banks argues against JP Morgan at this point. Right, True. If it's so good, then it could be less good and still, you know, give credit to people. But my intuition is that they are right. And like, in particular, if banks had to cut my credit card interest rate to 10%, that wouldn't affect anyone because I don't pay interest on my credit card. But if they had to cut like the lowest credit score borrowers to 10%, they would probably do a lot less credit provision to those borrowers. Right. And there would be, you know, you'd see just the migration to credit cards being a, like, less available product and for people with higher credit scores.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. And those people who would be cut out, seems like, again, the consensus would be that they would go to like, payday lenders more who don't exactly offer better rates necessarily.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. I mean, I don't like the consumer credit right now is interesting. Right. Because there's been a huge rise in buy now, pay later, which is often structured as zero interest, fairly short repayment periods, and loosely speaking, they make their money on like interchange on swipe fees. Right. And so there'd be some of that. Right. But that would probably. You probably get less credit provision that way.

[Katie Greifeld]

Right.

[Matt Levine]

Like, you probably couldn't run up as much of a balance on your buy now, pay later product. The other thing that Trump wants is to, like, he's also talked about swipe fees.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yes.

[Matt Levine]

You squeeze credit cards from both ends. Right. And like, if you're a credit card company and you can charge a lot of money in swipe Fees, then like, you can make a lower interest rate work in some form for some time. But if you both have to give up your swipe fees and you have to give up your interest, it's like a much worse product.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. I am really interested to see what happens over the next couple days with this because we're recording this on January 15th.

[Matt Levine]

I'll tell you what's going to happen over the next couple of days.

[Katie Greifeld]

Okay.

[Matt Levine]

Well, no, I shouldn't say it. My general instinct is nothing, but things are crazy now. So maybe, maybe.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, specifically I'm referring to January 20th.

[Matt Levine]

Oh, yes. That's when if you don't stop charging more than 10% interest, you'll be in violation of the law. The law? The law. What law?

[Katie Greifeld]

That's what I would like to know. And that's what I was going to ask.

[Matt Levine]

What's the secret law in Donald Trump's head?

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, apparently a lot of these banks are going to be in violation of it.

[Matt Levine]

It does seem that way.

[Katie Greifeld]

You know who won't?

[Matt Levine]

Bilt.

[Katie Greifeld]

Bilt.

[Matt Levine]

I love it.

[Katie Greifeld]

Bilt is seizing the moment, unveiling three new credit cards with interest rates capped at 10%.

[Matt Levine]

That's not true. Right. Isn't it a one year promotional rate? Yes, because that's the really interesting thing about this. Trump is not like credit cards can only charge 10% for the rest of time. He's like, for the next year, until the midterm elections, you have to charge 10% or less. And you know, credit card companies do that all the time. All the time. They offer like 0% introductory rates. Right. Like you can like have some sort of promotional program that charges 10% or less to attract customers. Right. And then, you know, eventually you jack it up to 30%. But what a great time to have a promotional program. And by the way, these promotional programs, like you often see people being like 0% introductory APR for the first six months. Right. Bill is like 10%, no problem. 10% introductory rate for one year.

[Katie Greifeld]

It's on new purchases.

[Matt Levine]

It's a great, like combination of politics and marketing.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, I'm trying to find all the different asterisks here, but yeah, it is great promotion. And I mean, you haven't really seen anyone else or at least not in like a big splashy way like this sort of take advantage of this moment. It's mostly been pushback from the banks.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah. Because if you, if you're a bank with a long standing portfolio, like, and then you're like 10% introductory rate on our new card like it's a little bit like people will notice that you're mostly not charging that.

[Katie Greifeld]

Right.

[Matt Levine]

Bilt I think has some advantages in the. Like, my impression is like they have fairly high credit quality and like, like they're the pay your rent with a credit card thing. Like I think they have probably different economics from a regular bank.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. We were talking about this earlier in person that we've talked about Bilt on this podcast before and I forget.

[Matt Levine]

I didn't believe you when you told me that.

[Katie Greifeld]

I forget what, what the specific. We've definitely talked about it on this podcast. But yeah, they have a really interesting model.

[Matt Levine]

But yeah, I asked you how it worked and you didn't know. I don't frankly know either. But my impression is that you can't normally put your rent on your credit card because that'll cost your landlord 3% interchange fee. But Bilt has negotiated with landlords to make them Bilt so much that they can charge rent on their credit card.

[Katie Greifeld]

And now mortgages. Pay for your mortgage with your bill card.

[Matt Levine]

They have enough moving pieces that the 20% interest on balances is not the most important part of their business and they can go around being like 10%. Yeah. There you go, Donald Trump.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. The countdown's on. As of right now, we're five days away from all those laws.

[Matt Levine]

I still think the answer to what will happen on January 20th is nothing. But what if they're all arrested?

[Katie Greifeld]

Arrested?

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, they're violating the law. What law? Nobody knows.

[Katie Greifeld]

We'd have an emergency podcast.

[Matt Levine]

I would not have an emergency podcast. Podcast go into hiding.

[Katie Greifeld]

Is there anything else to say about this specific topic?

[Matt Levine]

I'm sure there's a lot of things. My impression is that people on financial television and frankly in financial journalism have been talking about it pretty non stop for a week.

[Katie Greifeld]

You know what's amazing? I would have been one of those people, but I spent the first half of this week at the J.P. morgan Healthcare Conference. So I was watching these headlines fly by and Jamie diamond there. No, not this year. At least that was my understanding.

[Matt Levine]

Right. It's too busy dealing with.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, yeah, because.

[Matt Levine]

And Jay Powell a lot of stuff.

[Katie Greifeld]

President Trump sent that Truth Social last Friday night. I remember it was that night. I was on my couch.

[Matt Levine]

You were on your couch looking at Truth Social as you do.

[Katie Greifeld]

No, I wasn't. I actually, I don't have a Truth Social account, but everything that he posts then read spikes on the terminal. So I get it through my app anyway. So it's. It's like having A Truth Social account, I imagine. I don't know what the other posters are up to. I don't know if it's a one man platform or what. Someone let us know.

[Matt Levine]

Greatest content creator of our generation.

[Katie Greifeld]

True Beast Mode.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news. I am always looking for companies to support that are ethical. And let's be honest, the phone companies we've all been stuck with are not that. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. You know, I travel constantly and supposedly I have international free roaming on Verizon, yet my phone bills are still 300, 400 and even $500 a month. It makes zero sense. So I switched to a company with actual ethics, Noble Mobile. And they pay you for staying off your phone. The more you unplug, the more money you save each month. And the most you'll Ever pay is 50 bucks Unlimited coverage when I need it, cash back when I don't. It was started by people I know and trust. So if you trust me and want to join my mission to stop being a phone addicted zombie, come along. Go to noble mobile.com Chelsea right now and try it for just 10 bucks. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea.

[Matt Levine]

Speaking of healthcare.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah, go on.

[Matt Levine]

I wrote this week about this lovely, well, terrible insider trading case. These like three brothers are accused of doing all sorts of insider trading. I think they're like, they're like healthcare people. Like, I think they worked in healthcare banking or at least one of them did. And they do a lot of trading in healthcare stocks and allegedly insider trading and market manipulation in healthcare stocks. And some of the accusations are wild. Like the thing that's the most interest to me is like, you know, I love insider trading and like doing it. So like the main thing they're accused of doing is like just standard stuff, right? They had a friend who they like, one guy had worked with him and he was a fairly junior banker at Lazard. He's a health care banker. And so he had some information about Lazard's health care deal flow and he would just tell his buddy, allegedly, hey, we're, you know, this deal is coming. And the buddy would allegedly trade options and made like $40 million, right? Like the ring of them made 40. And in exchange for this, the brother gave the banker gifts, including a Rolex watch, help in drafting slides for a PowerPoint presentation that he was preparing as part of his job at Lazard, which is like, really, he's facing up to 25 years in prison or whatever and like half a PowerPoint.

[Katie Greifeld]

I want to see the PowerPoint, there's probably a half hour.

[Matt Levine]

It can only be so good.

[Katie Greifeld]

I mean, that's what you say now.

[Matt Levine]

No. Like if you were doing your PowerPoint for your banking job at Lazard, the floor is high, it has to be good, but the ceiling is low. It can't be that good. And I also gave him advice and assistance in his search for a new investment banking position, which did not work out well because it's hard to keep an investment banking job once you're charged with insider trading.

[Katie Greifeld]

The most valuable piece of advice probably would have been to stop insider trading.

[Matt Levine]

Yes. The one piece of advice he could not provide in the circumstances, but yes. So that's most of what they did, mostly the money that they're accused of making. But they also did other wild stuff, including insider trading on drug trials. Right. So like you have a biotech company, it's like trialing a cancer drug. If the results are good, the stock will go up. If the results are bad, the stock will go down. And so they allegedly set up fake email addresses for fake doctors and would email the people doing the trial to be like, I have a cancer patient who would like to be part of the trial. And they'd be like, okay. And then they'd be like, can you tell me how it's going so that I know whether I should put my cancer patient into the trial? And they'd get information that was useful for a hypothetical doctor, but also useful for an investor. Right. Because if it's like, trials going very well, then you can buy call options on the stock. And so they allegedly did that. They got some information. Apparently it wasn't, like, market moving enough, is my impression, because instead of using that information to trade options, they also made up fake information saying the trial was going really well. And then instead of putting out a fake press release or just talking about it on Twitter, they very subtly created fake profiles on cancer support sites and leaked it in a way that didn't seem like they were hyping a stock, but that made it seem like it was legitimate medical information. And then they took that and leaked it on Twitter and the stock went up. They didn't make a lot of money on this. This is a very convoluted.

[Katie Greifeld]

They made like 250 million.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, they made like $40 million on just straightforwardly being told about mergers. Right, that's true. That's a better deal. But this is. This was a very sophisticated and interesting form of insider trading that didn't work as well as the regular form of.

[Katie Greifeld]

Insider Trading, it seems more evil.

[Matt Levine]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Katie Greifeld]

Given that we're talking about like breast cancer drug trials.

[Matt Levine]

Right. It's gross. But also like, you could imagine the upshot of this being people who run biotech companies and doctors who run drug trials thinking, oh, no, we have to worry about insider trading by the doctors and patients in this trial and sort of having more safeguards to prevent that in a way that is bad for cancer patients, but that, like, you know, prevents this sort of insider trading. Right. It's like if you're a cancer patient and you go to a drug trial, like, nobody's like, oh, you better sign this piece of paper saying that you want insider trading and we're going to monitor your trading because it's not that important.

[Katie Greifeld]

Like, that is so far from.

[Matt Levine]

Right. Exactly what I'm thinking about. Far from these guys ideas. And so now it's like you sort of made the whole drug trial process a little bit worse for everyone.

[Katie Greifeld]

I was going to say that unfortunately, it feels like drug trials, especially for small, publicly listed biotech stocks, are like sort of the perfect place for this sort of thing.

[Matt Levine]

Yeah, there's tons of insider trading on them or like cases, but they're never patients. They're like a consulting doctor is leaking to a hedge fund analyst. You know, there's a long history of people worrying about insider trading and drug trials, but for the patients, it's kind of a new low.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah.

[Matt Levine]

For like the fake patients.

[Katie Greifeld]

The fake patients, the patients themselves.

[Matt Levine]

I wrote about this and I was like, hypothetically, if you were a patient and you took the drug and it worked really well in your case, and then you bought call options on that, would that be insider trading? And the answer sort of depends on what you've signed. I think on legal advice. But also, no one's going to come after you. Come on. But yeah, these guys kind of ruin it for everyone.

[Katie Greifeld]

Well, in the setup, you did ask the popular question that say you were on a Boeing plane that was going down, never that one you bought.

[Matt Levine]

It's like a big Reddit thing.

[Katie Greifeld]

What was the answer?

[Matt Levine]

Oh, I think that's fine. Yeah. So this is like a classic. This is like a Reddit thing that people send me a lot when it was first posted and then periodically sent me every month since. But there was that Boeing plane where like the door popped off in midair and it was pretty harrowing for the people on the plane and someone posted on Reddit, if I were on that plane, could I have bought put options on Boeing? Would that be insider trading. And my answer is not legal advice is no, it's fine. It's like you're using a product, right? If you have an iPhone and yeah, you don't think it works very well, you can sell Apple stock and if you think it works great, you can buy Apple stock. This is normal. People interact with the stock market. It's like you experience the company's products or services and then you trade on it.

[Katie Greifeld]

I guess if like you're on that plane and you've called all your loved ones, everyone you would want to talk to, and you have some extra time that it's not unreasonable that you would think to buy puts.

[Matt Levine]

I feel like the framing of the question on Reddit suggests that like, you don't have that many loved ones, you're kind of a degen. But yeah, sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Katie Greifeld]

Yeah. I just, I like to make everything personal, right?

[Matt Levine]

I would not, I think, have the presence of mind to buy puts on Boeing. No, I guess the point is like the plain lands, maybe. Anyway, point is I think it's fine. I think it's fine, but it's not legal at this. And that was the Money Stuff Podcast. I'm Matt Levine.

[Katie Greifeld]

And I'm Katie Greifeld.

[Matt Levine]

You can find my work by subscribing to the Money stuff newsletter on bloomberg.com.

[Katie Greifeld]

And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day on the close between 3 and 5pm Eastern.

[Matt Levine]

We'd love to hear from you. You can send an email to moneypodlumberg.net Ask us a question and we might answer it on the air.

[Katie Greifeld]

You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening right now and leave us a review. It helps more people find the show.

[Matt Levine]

The Money Stuff podcast is produced by Anna Mazarakis, Moses Andam and Alexis Haut.

[Katie Greifeld]

Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples.

[Matt Levine]

Thanks for listening to the Money Stuff podcast. We'll be back next week with more stuff.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news. I am always looking for companies to support that are ethical. And let's be honest, the phone companies we've all been stuck with are not that. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. You know, I travel constantly and supposedly I have international free roaming on Verizon. Yet my phone bills are still 300, 400 and even $500 a month. It makes zero sense. So I switched to a company with actual ethics, Noble Mobile. And they pay you for staying off your phone. The more you unplug, the more money you save each month and the most you'll ever pay is 50 bucks. Unlimited coverage when I need it, cash back when I don't. It was started by people I know and trust. So if you trust me and want to join my mission to stop being a phone addicted zombie, come along. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea right now and try it for just 10 bucks. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea.