Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: “Kinda Spooky: META, AI, TSLA”

Host: Matt Levine (Bloomberg Opinion)
Co-host: Katie Greifeld (Bloomberg News/TV)
Date: October 31, 2025

Episode Overview

On this Halloween edition, Matt Levine and Katie Greifeld dig into the enormous capital spending boom among the biggest tech companies, including Meta’s off-balance-sheet AI spending tricks, OpenAI’s transition to a “normal” company facing IPO rumors, and the drama around Elon Musk’s Tesla pay package. The episode, filled with sharp wit and technical insight, explores whether the nature of tech investing is fundamentally changing, the oddities of modern finance structures, and leadership power struggles. There are also some lighter moments, including Halloween costumes, the JP Morgan HQ’s famous lobby flag, and mailbag tidbits.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Halloween Banter and Show Kickoff

• Tone: Playful, personal, and sets a lighthearted mood.
  • [01:44–04:23] Katie loves Halloween and plans a “cat ears” costume, while Matt gently ribs her for her enthusiasm and suggests she should have a ghostly co-host.
  • Memorable line:
    Matt (about Katie dressing up):
    “One year I want you to wear, like, a children’s ghost costume. You know, just like a sheet with holes for eyes on air.” (03:09)

2. The Massive AI Spending Boom: Meta, Debt, and Off-Balance-Sheet Magic

• Magnitude of Tech AI Investment

  • [04:34–05:05] They highlight that tech companies, particularly in the Magnificent Seven, are now pouring staggering sums into AI infrastructure.
  • “Either you do or you don’t believe that the entire world is going to change with AI. And if you believe it, you’re like, yeah, sure, $10 trillion, no problem.” (Matt, 05:05)

• Meta’s Financing Tricks and Off-Balance-Sheet Data Centers

  • [05:46–08:38] Matt explains Meta’s recent $25 billion bond deal and their use of “hybrid” or off-balance-sheet structures (through JV ownership by firms like Blue Owl) to keep debt from affecting their credit rating.
    • Meta sets up a JV to own data centers, which are financed so that, in economic substance, it’s similar to debt, but not classified as such on Meta’s balance sheet.
    • Investors treat these bonds almost like Meta debt, but they yield more—closer to junk bond territory.
  • Quote:
    “It’s like not debt of Meta for the purposes of Meta, but it is kind of debt of Meta for the purposes of the people buying the bonds.” (Matt, 06:37)

• Rise of Creative Project Finance in Tech

  • [08:55–10:44] The discussion expands to other industries (like Keurig Dr Pepper’s K-cup JV). Katie and Matt note that these financial engineering tactics are becoming more common—and higher-profile—as private credit funds seek new ways to deploy capital.
  • “Private credit firms ... can do this to get tens of billions of dollars of investment-grade financing, which is what they want.” (Matt, 10:36)

3. Changing Nature of Tech Investing

• [11:09–13:26] Katie asks if the era of “capital-light” tech is over, as companies like Meta and others are now investing heavily in physical infrastructure.

  • Five years ago, tech was about scaling with low marginal cost and intangible assets. Now, it’s a trillion-dollar data center arms race.
  • Quote:
    “Tech is not capital light these days.” (Matt, 11:49)

• Meta’s AI Gambit and the Metaverse

  • [13:00–14:33] They joke about Meta’s pivot from the Metaverse (“data centers optimized only for the Metaverse... tumbleweeds blowing through them,” Matt, 12:46) to massive AI build-out, and wonder if targeted ads justifies this scale of spending.
  • Katie notes Mark Zuckerberg’s claim that excess compute could power either their core business or be sold to others, while Reality Labs continues to run major losses ($4.4 billion on $470 million revenue last quarter).

4. OpenAI Becomes a "Normal" Company—and Why That's Weird

• OpenAI’s New Governance Structure & IPO Rumors

  • [16:43–18:57] The hosts recap OpenAI’s formal transition to a standard company, despite its wonky nonprofit/for-profit hybrid legacy.
  • IPO talk is swirling, but Matt is skeptical (“any large private tech company might IPO in the next two years,” 17:19).
  • OpenAI’s complex ownership: nonprofit board control, but most value to private holders.

• Tension Between "Benefiting Humanity" and Profits

  • [19:10–20:55] Matt is cynical about the nonprofit board’s influence on actual management (“no one cares... No one’s worried about that”).
  • They joke about the infamous Sam Altman firing: “...the board of OpenAI...has fired Sam Altman not for doing a bad job of developing products...but for the crime of, I don’t know, something else. No one really understood it…” (Matt, 19:50)

• Private vs. Public Funding: Is There a Limit?

  • [21:00–22:22] They debate whether OpenAI’s rumored IPO means private markets finally can’t meet the capital needs of giant AI companies. Matt says the limit hasn’t been reached yet: “He’s got a $500 billion company that keeps signing trillion dollar deals and is not public.” (Matt, 22:11)

5. Tesla/Elon Musk Compensation Saga

• Tesla’s $1 Trillion Pay Package Debate

  • [24:32–27:12] Robin Denholm (Tesla chair) is on a media campaign to drum up shareholder support for Musk’s enormous compensation package, nominally valued at $1 trillion if all stretch targets are hit.
  • Matt disputes this framing:
    “They’re not giving him a trillion dollars. They’re giving him the chance to get 12% of the stock... Right now [12%] is worth $180 billion... not a trillion dollars.” (Matt, 25:57)
  • Notable: Matt argues Tesla could simply give Musk super-voting shares to meet his demand for control, rather than more stock and potential dilution; Robin Denholm claims they tried and failed to find a way to do this.
  • “It seems to me like you could do it. ...You could just be like, we’re giving him 25% of the vote because that’s what he wants.” (Matt, 27:01)

• Succession and Power at Tesla

  • [27:40–29:32] The hosts ponder Tesla’s succession planning. Denholm touts a deep executive bench, but Matt points out we never hear from them.
  • They rationalize Musk would have no incentive to sabotage Tesla if he leaves, since his wealth is wrapped up in company stock.

• Shareholder Dynamics

  • [29:57–30:07] With 30% retail shareholders, the outcome is uncertain, but Matt expects the package to be approved:
    “He’ll be fine. ...They’re like, creating drama, but they’ll be fine. ...If they’re not fine, I’ll be very interested to see if he quits.” (Matt, 30:02)

6. Mailbag and Lighthearted Listener Notes

• [30:10–34:14]
  • Listener emails on the new JP Morgan HQ:
    • The flag in the lobby is animated by an HVAC system that mimics outdoor conditions—even wind and rain, like a “Hogwarts ceiling.”
    • The story of the Citicorp Building’s construction flaw and late-night retrofits (Matt: “...every night they’d go home and people would come in and shore up the bolts…” [32:30])
    • Rumor that Jamie Dimon, CEO, was refused a beer at 3pm at the in-house pub (Katie: “...we never hear from them or about them.” [27:57])
  • Running joke: Doing a future podcast live from the JP Morgan HQ pub as wind whips around the iconic lobby flag.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Meta’s Off-Balance-Sheet Debt:
  “It’s like not debt of Meta for the purposes of Meta, but it is kind of debt of Meta for the purposes of the people buying the bonds.”
  — Matt Levine, [06:37]

• On the Changing Capital Needs of Tech:
  “Tech is not capital light these days.”
  — Matt Levine, [11:49]

• On OpenAI’s Governance:
  “It’s very hard to be like, we started as a nonprofit, we took donations...and now we’re a $500 billion private company for the benefit of our investors...the nonprofit will continue to control the company—have, like, super voting rights. I don’t know how that will go for an IPO, but it’ll go fine. Like, no one cares.”
  — Matt Levine, [18:10]

• On Tesla/Elon Musk’s Compensation Package:
  “They’re not giving him a trillion dollars. They’re giving him the chance to get 12% of the stock.”
  — Matt Levine, [25:57]

Important Timestamps

| Topic | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Halloween banter & costumes | 01:44–04:23 | | AI infrastructure spending (Meta, etc.) | 04:34–10:44 | | Meta’s financial engineering | 05:46–08:38 | | Changing tech company business models | 11:09–13:26 | | The Metaverse and targeted ads | 12:38–14:33 | | OpenAI’s corporate transition & IPO | 16:43–22:22 | | Elon Musk’s Tesla pay package debate | 24:32–29:57 | | Tesla succession and shareholder drama | 27:40–30:07 | | Mailbag: JP Morgan HQ, Citicorp story | 30:10–34:14 |

Overall Tone

• Knowledgeable, witty, and self-aware; the hosts mix wry skepticism with deep technical insight. Despite tackling complex finance structures, they keep the conversation accessible and highly entertaining.

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about:

• How and why tech giants are finding new (sometimes sneaky) ways to fund their outsized AI ambitions
• The shifting landscape of tech company risk and valuation in the AI era
• The quirks and ironies of shareholder control (Tesla, OpenAI)
• Amusing asides on corporate headquarters and Halloween in the Bloomberg newsroom

The hosts’ blend of detailed explanation and dry humor makes even intricate financial engineering sound engaging—and occasionally “kinda spooky.”