Money Stuff: The Podcast

Episode: Mouth Noises: 50y, ISS, HF
Date: November 14, 2025
Hosts: Matt Levine (Bloomberg Opinion, Money Stuff Column Author), Katie Greifeld (Bloomberg News Reporter & TV Anchor)

Episode Overview

This episode delivers Matt and Katie’s trademark blend of technical insight and dry humor, dissecting recent financial news and controversies in “mouth noises” fashion—sometimes literally. They debate the 50-year mortgage proposal (and how it’s less policy than personality politics), dissect the role and backlash against proxy advisors ISS and Glass Lewis (contextualized by the latest Tesla vote drama), and wryly analyze the ‘talent bubble’ in hedge funds, connecting labor scarcity with ancient pandemic economics. Along the way, memorable jokes, personal anecdotes, and deadpan skepticism keep things lively.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Banter & ASMR Jokes

• [01:30–02:25] Matt opens with a riff about eating Avgolemono soup on-mic, Katie riffs about podcast ASMR, poking fun at their “mouth noises” episode title.
  • "If you've ever wanted to hear this podcast is ASMR." — Matt [01:46]
  • "If you ever wanted to hear Matt Levine sort of just inhaling soup." — Katie [01:49]

2. The 50-Year Mortgage Proposal

• [03:00–09:54]

Context & Political Theater

• Trump recently “truthed” about introducing the 50-year mortgage, prompted by housing official Bill Pulte’s Palm Beach golf pitch (with an FDR vs Trump mortgage comparison poster). [03:21–03:56]

  “FDR appeared below 30 year mortgage. And there was a photo of Trump below 50 year mortgage. And the headline was Great American Presidents.”
  — Katie [03:56]

• Derision about this “policy analysis” being driven by marketing, and intra-administration sniping at Pulte.

Stock Market Reactions

• Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shares fell, partly due to rumors of Pulte’s falling out with Trump, showing how political drama—not substantive policy—is moving markets. [04:33–05:24]

  “It’s not like, would a 50 year mortgage be good for Fannie? Would it be bad?...For the last 10 years, people have said, oh, it can’t last forever, they have to be released...”
  — Matt [04:55]

Why the 50-Year Mortgage is a Bad Idea

• Theoretically, spreading payments drops monthly costs by ~10–15%, enticing for affordability—but at the cost of:

  • Little to no equity built for years.
  • “Double the cost” in total interest over life of the loan.
  • “Feels even less like homeownership and more like renting forever.” — Matt [06:37]

• Matt’s Key Insight: In supply-constrained markets, extra purchasing power just bids up existing house prices.

  “If you did something to make housing more affordable, you would just raise the price of houses to like, fully eliminate that affordability advantage…”
  — Matt [06:47]

• Comparison: Like with student loans and college tuition, subsidies end up flowing to sellers (colleges, homeowners), not buyers (students, first-time buyers). [07:30–08:15]

Reaction Across the Aisle

• Both left and right dislike it—Compass Point analyst called it “homeownership via an indentured servitude contract.” [08:57]

  “To your point that it probably feels like renting forever...offering ‘homeownership via an indentured servitude contract.’”
  — Katie [08:57]

• Matt: Incremental changes (30y vs 50y) aren't as transformative as politicians suggest.

Assumable & Portable Mortgages

• [10:03–12:52]

  • Assumable: New owner takes over existing mortgage.

  • Portable: Homeowner moves and keeps the same mortgage.

  • Not new, but rare in US. Would be attractive with today’s rates (e.g., Matt’s “flex” of a 3.25% mortgage rate).

    “If I could keep my three and a quarter percent mortgage, that would be nice for me.”
    — Matt [11:04]

  • Would increase mobility & inventory but complicates pricing for lenders (“prepayment option” becomes more valuable, making lending riskier and more expensive).

    “It would be really bad for mortgage investors and make mortgages much more expensive, I think, because you’d have to price that option.”
    — Matt [12:44]

3. Proxy Advisors & the Tesla Vote

• [15:58–25:54]

What are Proxy Advisors?

• Institutional Shareholder Services (ISS) and Glass Lewis dominate; their job is to advise fund managers on proxy (shareholder) votes, usually “routine stuff.”

  “They’re in the business of telling investors how they should vote on proxy votes. And you almost never hear about it because it doesn’t matter. It’s like all these advisory proxy votes at companies you don’t care about...”
  — Matt [16:09]

Elon Musk, Tesla, and "Too Much Power"?

• Both ISS and Glass Lewis recommended against Musk’s massive compensation package; it passed anyway because Tesla’s retail base didn’t care about their advice.

• New right-wing focus on proxy advisors as “too left wing,” especially on ESG (environment/social/governance) matters.

• White House and FTC now considering curbing their influence—regulatory scrutiny framed as antitrust, though real objection is political/cultural.

  “There is a widespread now kind of right wing coded being mad at Glass Lewis and ISS because they tell people how to vote...There’s the sense that like they have too much power and they push companies to be more left wing than they otherwise would be.”
  — Matt [17:58]

Do Proxy Advisors Matter?

• Their recommendations used to matter more. Now big asset managers (BlackRock, Vanguard) create their own policies. ISS and Glass Lewis have diluted their house views.

• Their influence is greatest not on major votes, but “the mountain of routine votes” that asset managers and index funds don’t want to spend time on.

  “It is kind of irrational to pay attention to shareholder voting.”
  — Matt [28:36]

How Many Proxy Advisors Should There Be?

• Debate over the “oligopoly” with only two major players.

  “There are only two proxy advisory services that are big, but how many should there be?”
  — Matt [19:41]

• Comparison to ratings agencies.

Split Recommendations?

• Katie asks if ISS and Glass Lewis ever disagree—Matt’s sure they have, though they share governance philosophy.

  “But as I said, these people come from a professional interest in corporate governance and there are sort of standard views on what’s good governance.”
  — Matt [23:53]

Index Fund Voting

• Increasing debate over letting passive fund investors (like those in BlackRock index funds) dictate votes—mirroring “cranks” or passionate respondents who do reply, potentially making outcomes more erratic.

  “If you had to ask your investors, how would you vote and then get weird answers back, they would vote a lot more against management and it would be kind of bad for corporate managers...”
  — Matt [27:14]

• Katie notes Vanguard’s “Investor Choice” program, where fund participants pick which general priorities drive their votes. [27:20–28:25]

4. Hedge Fund “Talent Wars” & the Great Gardening Leave Bubble

• [31:11–35:51]

The Fight for Talent

• Discussing Business Insider’s look at hedge fund talent wars. If you attract “mercenaries” with huge pay, don’t be surprised if they leave for better pay offers.

  “If you’re working at a hedge fund for $50 million, there’s a lot of reasons to assume that you’re there for the money and so you could be lured away by a higher bidder.”
  — Matt [31:49]

Gardening Leave and Labor Scarcity

• Half of all hedge fund PMs are, at any time, on paid forced sabbaticals (“gardening leave”), keeping supply tight and bidding up wages.

  “It’s like you have a career where you get paid a lot because you’re scarce, like artificially scarce. And also you get to take long vacations every couple of years.”
  — Matt [32:35]

• Matt compares this “scarcity” to the labor shortage after the Black Death (!)—but much more pleasant.

Why Can’t More Hedge Fund Talent Just Be Trained?

• Even though firms try to mold new talent, supply is slow to adjust.

  “Why can’t you teach someone to manage a hedge fund? Like, I understand it’s hard, but, you know, if you’re paying them $20 million, you get someone to do it.”
  — Matt [33:55]

• Katie jokes Matt sounds like Elle Woods: “Like, it’s hard.” [34:02]

• Comparison to the current "war for talent" in AI—a field where labor is still truly scarce because the discipline's so new:

  “It wasn’t a thing that got you paid $100 million five years ago. And now that it is...there will perhaps be less purity [of motive].”
  — Matt [35:01]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Homeownership via an indentured servitude contract, calling the concept a bad idea.” — Katie citing analyst on 50-year mortgages [08:57]
• “People talk about student loans…government subsidies…what happens is not that it gets cheaper…colleges raise their tuition to fully capture that subsidy.” — Matt [07:30]
• “You set up something to attract mercenaries, but now you want loyal soldiers. It doesn’t work…” — Quoting Bradley Sykes’ source on hedge fund labor [31:23]
• “It’s like you have a career where you get paid a lot because you’re scarce…also you get to take long vacations every couple of years.” — Matt on gardening leave [32:35]
• “If you did something to make housing more affordable, you would just raise the price of houses to, like, fully eliminate that affordability advantage.” — Matt [06:47]
• “It would be really bad for mortgage investors and make mortgages much more expensive, I think, because you’d have to price that option [on prepayment].” — Matt [12:44]
• “It is kind of irrational to pay attention to shareholder voting.” — Matt [28:36]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Opening Banter & Soup ASMR: [01:30–02:25]
• 50-Year Mortgage Proposal: [03:00–09:54]
• Assumable & Portable Mortgage Concepts: [10:03–12:52]
• Proxy Advisors & Tesla Vote Debate: [15:58–25:54]
• Index Fund Voting & "Crank" Influence: [26:17–28:54]
• Hedge Fund Talent Wars, Gardening Leave: [31:11–35:51]

Style & Tone

This episode is breezy but sharp—frequent dry asides, personal anecdotes (flexing low mortgage rates, humor about dead possums in Matt’s house), and a skeptical stance toward flashy finance “innovations.” The hosts’ rapport brings levity to technical explanations, making even the polysyllabic world of proxy governance and mortgage math highly listenable.

For Listeners Who Missed It

You’ll come away understanding that the 50-year mortgage proposal is political theater masking a fundamentally bad, inflationary idea; that proxy advisors wield less practical power than their critics claim (but more annoyance); and that hedge fund salary inflation is as much about operational quirks as true “talent.” And you’ll probably crave Greek soup—or at least, more Matt and Katie banter.