50 Years of BTK with Larry Hatteberg [bonus]

Summary

Monster: BTK – 50 Years of BTK with Larry Hatteberg [Bonus Episode]

Hosted by iHeartPodcasts and Tenderfoot TV

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Introduction

In this special bonus episode of "Monster: BTK," Susan Peters engages in a heartfelt sit-down interview with her former colleague from CAKE TV, Larry Hatteberg. Released on February 10, 2025, this episode commemorates 50 years since the infamous BTK (Bind, Torture, Kill) serial killer terrorized Wichita, Kansas. Larry and Susan reflect on their decades-long involvement in covering the BTK story, offering deep insights into their professional experiences, personal challenges, and the enduring impact of BTK's crimes on their lives and the community.

The Role in BTK Coverage

Susan and Larry discuss their pivotal roles in the media coverage that sought to aid in capturing BTK. They emphasize the delicate balance they maintained between informing the public and engaging BTK through media interactions.

Susan Peters [02:15]:

"We felt like we needed to be part of the process of catching him."

Larry Hatteberg [03:24]:

"I decided that we should communicate with him because my feeling was if he's communicating with us, he's not killing."

Their strategy involved using television broadcasts to encourage BTK to continue his communications, hoping this engagement would lead to further clues. This approach positioned them as integral players in the investigation, inadvertently making them part of the story they were reporting on.

Interaction with Law Enforcement

Larry elaborates on the complexities of working alongside the police. While both media and law enforcement aimed to capture BTK, their methods sometimes clashed, leading to tensions.

Larry Hatteberg [05:33]:

"The very difficult part for me was working with the police department. They did a great job over the 30 years... often the police department, I think, sometimes resented us because we were part of the story."

A notable incident involved Larry visiting a Home Depot location to inquire about a package, leading to a tense meeting with the district attorney who accused him of interfering with a federal investigation. This rare conflict highlighted the challenges journalists face when their duties overlap with active investigations.

Personal Experiences and Fears

Susan and Larry share their personal fears and experiences of being stalked by BTK, illustrating the constant threat he posed even after his capture.

Susan Peters [13:46]:

"I was glad you were with me. I had tremendous fear."

They recount instances where they were followed or targeted, reinforcing the pervasive fear that BTK instilled not just in the public but also in those closest to the investigation.

BTK's Capture and Its Impact

The successful apprehension of Dennis Rader, known as BTK, marked a significant turning point. Susan vividly describes the emotional relief felt upon his incarceration.

Susan Peters [22:23]:

"I remember watching the car pulling up to the El Dorado Prison doors... I started crying, thinking to myself, the nightmare is over."

Larry contrasts this by focusing on the procedural aspects of capturing BTK, recalling the day's media frenzy and the logistical efforts to bring him to prison.

Larry Hatteberg [25:21]:

"I remember the week before they finally took him to prison... I went inside his cell where he would be kept. When the door slams on that cell, that scared me more than anything."

Reflections on BTK's Trial and Imprisonment

During BTK's trial, both Susan and Larry were profoundly affected by his demeanor and lack of remorse. Larry reflects on BTK's pride in his crimes and the chilling composure he exhibited in court.

Larry Hatteberg [27:42]:

"He was proud of it... He was his moment in the sun."

Susan expresses frustration with BTK's behavior during the trial, wishing the judge would expedite his guilty plea to spare the families further pain.

Susan Peters [29:53]:

"I kept wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him details of every single murder. He's on stage. He's delighted."

Ongoing Communication with BTK

Even after his imprisonment, Larry continues to seek understanding of BTK's motives by maintaining communication. He hopes that further dialogue might reveal more about what drove BTK to commit his heinous crimes.

Larry Hatteberg [37:02]:

"The reason I write to him is that I want to know... how we identify these children who are going to grow up and be one horrible human being."

Susan concurs, emphasizing that BTK's death would not provide closure as he never expressed genuine remorse.

Susan Peters [34:20]:

"I don't think his death will do any good for closure for the families."

Emotional Aftermath and Closure

Susan and Larry discuss the profound emotional toll the BTK case took on them personally. They reveal that their professional relationship evolved into a deep friendship, built on mutual support and understanding amidst the constant fear and stress.

Larry Hatteberg [14:18]:

"We really care about each other... we saved each other that way."

Despite their outward professionalism, both reveal the intense fear and emotional strain they endured, highlighting the personal sacrifices made in pursuit of justice.

Conclusion: Legacy and Continuing Relevance

The episode concludes with reflections on the enduring lessons from the BTK case. Larry underscores the importance of understanding the psychological factors that lead to such crimes to prevent future atrocities.

Larry Hatteberg [37:02]:

"We still don't have those answers. And that's why I stay involved in it, because I want to know... for future generations."

Susan echoes this sentiment, stressing that true closure lies not in BTK's demise but in comprehending the roots of his malevolence to safeguard the community.

Susan Peters [35:34]:

"He knows he's a crazy person in his world. I don't think his death will do any good."

Their candid discussion serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities faced by those who report on and seek to understand the darkest aspects of human behavior.

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Notable Quotes:

• Susan Peters [02:15]:

  "We felt like we needed to be part of the process of catching him."

• Larry Hatteberg [03:24]:

  "I decided that we should communicate with him because my feeling was if he's communicating with us, he's not killing."

• Susan Peters [22:23]:

  "I started crying, thinking to myself, the nightmare is over."

• Larry Hatteberg [25:21]:

  "When the door slams on that cell, that scared me more than anything."

• Larry Hatteberg [27:42]:

  "He was his moment in the sun."

• Susan Peters [29:53]:

  "I kept wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him."

• Larry Hatteberg [37:02]:

  "We still don't have those answers."

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This comprehensive reflection by Susan Peters and Larry Hatteberg not only chronicles the relentless pursuit of justice against BTK but also delves into the personal and professional challenges faced by those on the frontlines of true crime journalism. Their insights offer valuable perspectives on the intersection of media, law enforcement, and the human psyche in the face of unimaginable evil.

Transcript

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Larry Hatteberg]

So good.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Your bill, ladies. I got it.

[Larry Hatteberg]

No, I got it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Susan Peters]

Don't be silly.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Susan Peters]

Okay.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Susan Peters]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Shoot.

[Larry Hatteberg]

No.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Larry Hatteberg]

Hi, guys. Come on in.

[Susan Peters]

Hi.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Good morning.

[Larry Hatteberg]

How are you?

[Susan Peters]

I'm good, Larry.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Little Susie Peters.

[Susan Peters]

How's Larry doing?

[Larry Hatteberg]

Sorry we have to hug.

[Susan Peters]

Yeah. Good seeing you, Larry.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Good seeing you.

[Susan Peters]

Good seeing you, Larry. Welcome to a special bonus episode of Monster btk. This is a sit down interview I did with my former CAKE TV colleague Larry Hatteberg. Last summer, I caught up with Larry at his home in Wichita. He and I reflect on our work together covering the BTK story all these years later.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So what does it feel like for both you to have such a major.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Role in the BTK story?

[Susan Peters]

We felt like we needed to be part of the process of catching him. And we knew Every time we would say something on TV or we would do a story, which was every single day, but we knew every time we would react to his communications was the chance for him to communicate again. And all we were trying to do as the media, in addition to informing the public, was to try and get communication out of him. And I know there was one instance with you, Larry, where you said something directly to him on the air.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Yes, I decided that we should communicate with him because my feeling was if he's communicating with us, he's not killing. So I went on the air and said, btk, if you're listening, and then gave a little spiel about that, indicating that the PD wanted to keep the communication going. And then we got some feedback. I do remember one of the postcards that we got talked about you and Jeff having a cold on the air. And that was, I think, after I had gone on the air and asked for the communications to continue.

[Susan Peters]

Btk, from the get go, made the media, and in particular Cake tv, part of the story.

[Larry Hatteberg]

And I think for a journalist, that's a terrible place to be is part of the story. But there was no way to get out of it because he enjoyed communicating with Cake tv. Cake TV was his favorite station. He had watched it since he was a child. He had been out there when we brought in RIN 1010 1. When ABC came out, he had been out there for other children's shows. So he was very much a part of the Cake family. He knew all of us. He watched it every night. He still watches it to this day. And it's a very odd feeling to go to work every day and know that you have to feed the national media, you have to feed the local media. Because many times Susan and I would either be on a morning show or. Or an evening show like Larry King Live back in the day. And you're serving two masters, and in journalism, there is no book written about how you do this. You know, we were writing the book on how you cover BTK when you are part of the story. And that was very difficult for me.

[Susan Peters]

I don't know about you, but it made me feel a little bit gratified that we had a small part in finally getting this guy.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Well, I think if it wasn't for the media, the communications might have stopped. The very difficult part for me was working with the police department. They did a great job over the 30 years. It was a tough case. But when we would get a postcard, obviously the police department would want a copy of that postcard. Well, we would give them the original and we would have a copy. But it became many times a little difficult because the police department, I think, sometimes resented us because we were part of the story and they didn't want the media to be part of the story. We couldn't help it. We were. And so here we are trying to do our job while the police department is trying to do theirs. I had one thing happen in which we got a postcard that indicated there was a package or another message at one of the. It was like a Lowe's. I forget what it was.

[Susan Peters]

Home Depot.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Home Depot, that's right. So I went out to Home Depot, and we'd call the detectives to come out to the station to get it. I arrived there before they did. I went in, talked to the manager. I said, did you get a package? No. Did you get a message from anyone? That was unusual, And I never used the term btk. And he said, no. I said, okay. Later on in that day, I get a call from the district attorney indicating that they would like to see me, the general manager, the news director, and our attorney in her office, 8am the next morning. And when we got to her office, she said, you arrived before the detectives. And I said, well, that's a matter of physics. Our station is just closer. She said, but you got there ahead of them. And I said, I walked in to Home Depot like any other customer would do. I asked a couple of questions. He didn't have any answers. I left. And she said, we're considering charging you with a felony, interfering with a federal investigation. And I said, how did I interfere? Tell me how I interfered. I just walked in the store, asked the manager a couple of questions, and left. And there wasn't a great answer for that. And our attorney was already going crazy. But I think what was happening was the police department was feeling pressure from the media and didn't like someone, as it appeared, showing up and interfering with their investigation. So I took that as a warning shot. But that's the only time that I ever got crossways with them.

[Susan Peters]

Like you say, our goals was the same, but we had two goals, and that was informing the public and catching btk. Their only mission was to catch btk. So sometimes it crossed ways, and sometimes the investigators totally loved us and used us, which we had no problem with. But sometimes we crossed the line because we had another job. And there were several times when I was, am I walking the line all right? And police would say, no, in so many words, you're not walking the line. All Right. Go back to your journalism. And so it was a very, very tough thing. There was one time when I called Detective John speer during the 10 o'clock news because the guy who they thought was BTK that they arrested and said, who is this guy that you arrested? Da da da da da. Of course, he couldn't tell me. And the next day I got a call from him and he said, don't ever call me direct again. That kind of thing. So the problem was we wanted to inform the public and still get the scoop, so to speak. We never wanted to ruin any investigation. We did follow the police department's rules as much as we could because we wanted to catch him as much as they did because we were in fear for our lives.

[Larry Hatteberg]

And the really strange thing was the day that I had two detectives who I knew, both of them show up in the front lobby of Cake tv. They said, larry, is there somewhere where we can talk private? So I took him up into the conference room and they said, larry, we need your DNA. And I said, why do you need my DNA? And he says, well, we're getting tips to the BTK hotline that you're btk. And I said, why are they saying I'm btk? And they said, well, when you talk about it on television, you seem to know a lot about it. You've been to the crime scenes, you followed it since 1974. And what we're trying to do is to rule you out. I said, okay, let's do it. So they swabbed me, and I said, how will I know for the results? And they said, well, if you don't see a SWAT team coming into Cake, you'll know that you passed. I said, okay.

[Susan Peters]

They swabbed some 200 people. I knew two or three people who were swabbed. Not only Larry Hadberg, the godfather of my second child, was swabbed as well, because he went to Wichita State the same time as btk. That's what was so weird about all this. We knew BTK was the guy next door. What if he really was the guy next door? What if he really was? Yeah, what if he really was the godfather of my child? You know, what if he really was an anchor person? I mean, nobody knew at that particular point in time. That was also frightening. Of course I knew it wasn't Larry, but thank you.

[Larry Hatteberg]

But at the time, we're not talking about each other's feelings. We're just trying to survive the day to get the story on the air. She's working her sources I'm working my sources. I remember one day we showed up at BTK's attorney's office together at the same time. I didn't know she was going to be there. She didn't know I was going to be there. You know, so we're all trying to do our job, but we're not talking to each other about feelings. What we're talking about is trying to get the story and trying to inform the public. And that's what is so weird. Just us talking about it now is probably the first time we have ever talked about feelings about it because the rest of the time it was just the job. We're doing the job and we're trying to inform the public to the best way that we can. And Susan and I weren't working together. She was working on her stories, I was working on my stories. But in reality we were working together because of this thing of trying to inform the public. So it was a different time.

[Susan Peters]

Larry's 100% right. We didn't talk about our feelings. Larry had no idea how scared I was. No one had any idea how scared I was. We didn't talk about things like that. Larry and I never talked about or anyone in the newsroom. I'm afraid we hate this guy. Da da da. No feelings were talked about at all.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Do you remember one night when we were walking out of cake, it was quarter 11 or so, and we get just past the concrete, stepping into the thing and a bicyclist is down at the end of our driveway. And he comes at us. Seemed like 100 miles an hour. And I thought, we're in trouble. I didn't know who that guy was. And he's coming at us 100 miles an hour on that bicycle, pulls up in front of us. And I thought we shot, stabbed, something here, something. And he was just a viewer. But I felt fear at that point and I'm sure you did.

[Susan Peters]

I was glad you were with me. I had tremendous fear. BTK knew where we were every single day at 10:00 and 10:30 and 6:00 and 6:30 after we got the postcard that said, I hope Susan's and Jeff's cold gets better. From that day on, I had a reporter or a photographer follow me all the way home because he knows where we are. He was watching us every night in this case.

[Larry Hatteberg]

I mean, we really care about each other and we've anchored together and done so many projects over the course of time that I think we really understand each other. And as I Say we don't agree on everything, but that's okay. You know, that's okay. We are completely and totally different personalities. But Susan is the finest co anchor anchor who I've ever worked with in my career. And we understood each other. We don't always agree on everything. But I love her to death and always will because she is the most professional anchor that I have ever had the opportunity to be with. And when we were anchoring together, if I got into trouble, she could take over. And she knew instantly if she he got into trouble, I took over. And we saved each other that way. And we did that without talking. We just instinctively could respond to each other's feelings. And that's rare. That is rare in television. I know in many stations, the co anchors don't like each other. You know, that happens a lot. I am so thankful that during the BTK years she was by my side. It made a huge difference. Huge difference.

[Susan Peters]

It made a huge difference that he was by my side. Larry was very protective of me. When he walked me out to my car. I knew BTK would never harm Larry Hadberg. They had like a little relationship from the 70s. I knew BTK would never harm Larry Hatteberg. So I felt very safe with Larry walking me out to the car because I knew BTK would never do anything to Larry.

[Larry Hatteberg]

I didn't know that. Yeah, no, I didn't know that. And we knew that he basically attacked mostly women with the exception of the Otero family. We didn't know that. I just knew that this was an odd time in my journalism history and that Susan and I were in it together. And Jeff and several of the other reporters who worked very hard on this. And we had to cover each other's butts in this thing because we didn't know where it was going. We didn't know how it was going to end. And when we do interviews like this, we all have the benefit of hindsight, but when you're living with the BTK story before he's caught, you have no idea who this guy is. You have no idea where the story is going. You have no idea of the outcome. And so it's a really different time. And to be able to talk about it in hindsight is one thing, but when you're living it, as I say, Susan and I never had these conversations. We were just scrambling to get the story on the air in hopes to serve the viewer every night.

[Susan Peters]

This is the first time I've realized that. I think it says that we had to put all of Our feelings aside, as Larry said, all of our fears, all of our sadness, all of our frustration, all of our anger, like everybody had, we had to put all that aside and do our job. It was really good with Larry and I because Larry chased the whole BTK angle, the whole the criminal and I chased the victim angle. And so we were all working on different things. Larry was working on getting reaction from BTK and I was working on let's find these victims families and tell the real story of these victims that are still out there. And so yeah, we each had our own little thing that we were working on and that made it successful.

[Larry Hatteberg]

And that was Susan's specialty, working with those family members. And she did an absolute great job with it and really got some incredible insight from the family members. And I think it's important to remember the family because you know, what happened to us is nothing. What happened to the families is everything. Those families lives have been changed forever in so many difficult and unusual ways that we'll never know about. But it's the families who bear the ultimate suffering of what BTK did. And you know, we concentrate on BTK because A, he's still alive, B, he's still being btk. But the families are basically sitting all across the city, all across the state in silence because they don't want to think about it, they don't want to relive the moments. And I'm guessing that they would not want to do this to have their comments on the air. So they live in silence. And I think that burden for me would really be overwhelming.

[Susan Peters]

The relationship between Larry and I during that whole year, it was something very special. We became very, very good friends during that year and very protective of each other.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It's stock up savings time now through March 25th. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible cleaning items from Charmin, Tide and Downey and dinner essentials from Stouffer's, DiGiorno, Arby's and Violife plus many more. Then clip the offer in our app for automatic event long savings stack up rewards to save even more restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details. Wasn't that delicious?

[Larry Hatteberg]

So good.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Your bill, ladies. I got it.

[Larry Hatteberg]

No, I got it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Seriously, I insist. I insisted first.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Don't be silly.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Susan Peters]

Okay.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Rock, paper, scissors for it.

[Susan Peters]

Rock, paper, scissors.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Shoot. No. The Wells Fargo Active Cash credit card. Visit Wells Fargo.com ActiveCash Terms apply at Ameca Insurance. We know it's more than just a car or a house. It's the four wheels that get you where you're going and the four walls that welcome you home. When you combine auto and home insurance with Amica, we'll help protect it all. And the more you cover, the more you can save. Amica. Empathy is our best policy. It's tax season, and by now. I know we're all a bit tired of numbers, but here's an important one you need to hear. $16.5 billion. That's how much money in refunds the IRS flagged for possible identity fraud last year. Here's another 20%. That's the overall increase in identity theft related to tax fraud in 2024 alone. But it's not all grim news. Here's a good number. 100 million. That's how many data points Lifelock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, LifeLock's US based restoration specialists will fix it. Backed by another good number, the million dollar protection plan. In fact, restoration is guaranteed or your money back. Don't face identity theft and financial losses alone. There's strength in numbers with Lifelock. Identity theft protection for tax season and beyond. Join now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply. Can we get into the capture of Dennis Raider?

[Susan Peters]

I'll never forget it.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Go ahead, be my guest.

[Susan Peters]

Of course, all the TV stations were live covering every single millisecond of his way to prison. He leaves downtown Wichita. We have a helicopter in the sky following the caravan to El Dorado Prison, which is about 30 miles away. The helicopters in the sky. I remember following the car. I remember watching the car. I remember the car pulling up to the El Dorado Prison doors. I remember them getting Dennis Raider out in his jumpsuit, foot, ankle cuffs and handcuffs and them walking him into that prison. I remember the live shot of the prison door shutting. I have never been so relieved. So, for lack of a better word, emotionally spent. I remember I started to cry, thinking to myself, the nightmare is over. For Wichita, the nightmare is finally over. Not only for us, for Larry and I and other members of the media, because it was a nightmare for us as well. But for all of Wichita, the nightmare was over. I started crying. And one other Thing that struck me from that, of course, that day we led with his incarceration forever and ever. All those stories aired that day, the 5, 6 and 10 o'clock news and all that. I remember the next day and the day after and the day after we didn't mention his name. And it was so refreshing not to have his name mentioned on our newscast. And I'm sure it's what he wanted forever and ever and ever. I don't know if we mentioned his name for a couple months after that. And that's what was so refreshing. I don't know how Larry felt, but when the prison doors closed, I could physically feel this huge weight lifted from my shoulders. Mind you, we've covered a zillion trials, a zillion homicide cases, a zillion. Never one like this where you'd feel this weight lifted off of you when the prison doors closed. I mean, anchor people don't feel that. Journalists. We felt this huge weight lifted off our shoulders and a huge sense of relief.

[Larry Hatteberg]

You know, it's interesting. I'm listening to you give that moment by moment feeling. And that's incredible because my memory of the day he was caught is just trying to get stuff on the air. And all I remember is all I could think about was, okay, we got to get this bite in and we got to get this story in and so on and so forth. I don't remember my feelings that day. I don't, I don't. Not at all. I remember the week before he was caught, the week before they finally took him to prison, that I went over to the El Dorado prison and did a story on the cell. I went inside his cell where he would be kept. And I remember, you know, when that door slams on that cell, it is terrifying for me because I can't be in an enclosed place. It would drive me crazy. And when the door slams on that cell, that scared me more than anything because I couldn't imagine spending the rest of my life in this very small area. But on the day, I remember all of the coverage of it, but I have no recollection of how I felt. I just. Nothing there.

[Susan Peters]

Not only did I feel that way the day he went to prison, but the day he was arrested, I was at the mall because it was in the morning before we went to work at 2:00 and the boss called and said, you got to get into work right away. I said, why? We're almost positive BTK was caught. I've never done this on a story. I mean, stories are Stories, you know, we're immune to this kind of thing. I was standing in the middle of the mall. The mall started going round and round and round. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm going to faint. I'm going to faint. And I started crying and I sat down and put my head between my legs. That was over a news story. We've never done that before. But it involved us so much that we became part of the fear, part of the story, part of the extreme relief when he was finally caught.

[Larry Hatteberg]

The moment for me was sitting in the courtroom when the judge asked him to go through his murders. And it was as if it was a three ring circus. He was in the center ring, the spotlight was on him and he was the star. And he went through each murder in a way that you would talk about getting bread at the bakery or picking up your laundry. Devoid of any emotion, just very factual. And I thought, how can a man stand up there and it was televised in front of everyone and go through those murders? And he was proud of it. He was, I don't want to use the word happy about it. You could tell that this was his moment in the sun. This was his time in which everybody could see his work. And I remember thinking, what kind of person could do that? What kind of person could tell the most evil things that humanity can do and be proud of it? He was proud of it. He did it. It was his moment in the sun.

[Susan Peters]

Because you were in the courthouse and Jeff and I were feeling on the anchor set, like, sick to our stomach. You had to have been even more sick to your stomach sitting there in the courtroom watching him.

[Larry Hatteberg]

It felt like it was not real, that this is a movie and this is the guy they hired to be btk because so far, so devoid of reality. Because human beings are not supposed to act like that. Human beings are not supposed to crave killing. Human beings are not supposed to be proud of the fact that they have snuffed 10 lives. And for him to stand up there in front of everyone and do that, it was just kind of like a movie script, almost didn't seem real. And then, of course, you're brought back down to earth and it is real.

[Susan Peters]

I also remember another feeling, and I don't know if it's relevant or not, but I'd like to ask Larry whether he felt the same way. I don't think you did, because I don't think Jeff did either. But I kept wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him questions. This is exactly what he wants. Quit asking him details of every single murder. He's on stage. He's delighted. And I kept wanting to say to the judge, just let him plead guilty and go, but he had the opportunity because the judge kept asking him questions. And then there was this murder. And then there was this murder. What about this murder? He stood up like he was accepting an academy award, answering the judge's questions about 10 different murders. And I kept wanting to tell the judge, quit asking him. This is what he wants. He's delighting in this. And he had already pled guilty. Why do we need to hear this?

[Larry Hatteberg]

See, this is a point when Susan and I probably disagree. I was very happy that the judge went through and had him describe each murder, because I felt that there are probably still people out there who would say, oh, the media is pouring down negative things about this guy. You know, what could be so terrible about Dennis Raider? But by taking him through murder by murder, and it just gets grosser and grosser and more terrible as he goes on. Then you see what BTK was. Then you see the man behind the three letters, and he becomes real and he becomes evil, and he would lose support, which is what I was hoping would happen. But still today, I know that there are people who write women who write him in jail. I don't get that. Never have understood that. But I was just happy the judge went through all of those things. So there was no mistake about what kind of human being this is and why he deserved the death penalty, which he did not get because of Kansas laws. But I thought it was a great moment. I just felt it was surreal. Larry, can you tell us why you still communicate with Dennis? The reason I will occasionally write to btk. We still to this day, do not know what caused BTK to become a murderer. We just have no clue. And there are a million teachers out there with kids in their classroom, and they know something is wrong with a child, but they don't know what to do. They don't know how to do it. So the question becomes, how do we identify these children who are going to grow up to become a btk? The first place that we would see that would be in the classroom. And so we need to find out what teachers can use to identify these kids. We still don't know. Dennis Raider told me that he knew by the time he was in late grade school and certainly by early junior high who he was and what he was. That, to me, is terrifying, because I'm guessing that there are thousands of other little BTKs out there being formulated right now, how do we find them? How do we detect them? And then how do we stop them? We still don't have those answers. And my hope is that all of the forensic psychologists who the FBI have employed and who others have employed, they can all get together instead of writing their own books from coast to coast, can all get together and say, okay, here's what caused this to happen. Here's what teachers in the future and others and parents can look to to see that their child is going to grow up and be one horrible human being. But until we have those answers, the BTK story will never be dead. Even if he dies tomorrow, the story isn't done because we don't know what caused him to become the murdering monster that he was. We still don't know. And that's why I stay involved in it, because I want to know, and I want to know for future generations.

[Susan Peters]

I 100% agree with Larry. I don't think his death will do any good for closure for the families. It won't do any good for closure for other people who were affected by btk. His death will mean almost nothing to them because they don't want to have any contact or anything to do with him. He's never really shown any remorse or sorrow or any has come anywhere near. I made a mistake. He's admitted to Factor X and he said, Factor X made me do it. But he's never said, I'm sorry I let Factor X take over. I'm sorry I did this, I'm sorry I did that. I'm sorry I'm a crazy person in my world. I think he knows he's a crazy person. I think he knows he's never apologized for it. He's never apologized for the lives he's changed. And so for that reason, I don't think his death will do any good.

[Larry Hatteberg]

In the letter that I just wrote to him, I asked him how he felt today about what he did as compared to 2005. And the last time we talked, he didn't refer to that. He didn't answer that question in this. I said, recent stories in the news indicate that some believe that you may be responsible for two additional murders. Just asking questions like that. And the reason I write to him is that I hope in a moment of sanity he would write back to me and say, oh, yeah, I did kill that person, you know, back 10 or 15 years ago. But he hasn't done it yet. As a news person, you keep asking the question. And what we found is when you interview people, you Ask the question many different ways, and you get many different responses, and you hope that the response would come out. All right, guys, you know? Yeah, okay. I did those others. He hasn't done that yet. What he wrote back to me this time, there's no news value in it. He said, I just want you to know I forgive you. I forget how he worded it. I'm trying to figure out what he's forgiving me for. He says, been a few minutes since we last corresponded. As I recall, I recalled you and others from Cake tv. How can I forget you? You. Then he says something the media and I'm a man with extra, which I couldn't read, but all is forgiven. So I'm not sure what he's forgiving me for. I did understand back in 2005, he was unhappy with me because in one story, I referred to him as a monster, and he took offense at that. So I'm always anxious to get a letter because, you know, it may be a key to a solution to a piece of information that we don't have. And he said in there he was getting away from letter writing. I understand why he's getting away from letter writing because it's very hard to read his handwriting. Now, they apparently have tablets. He calls them. I'm assuming maybe it's a Chromebook or maybe an iPad. I don't know what he has. So now he can text to people. And he said he was also receiving texts. Having Dennis Raider being able to text is a little bit terrifying. If you're sitting at the dinner table with your family and you get a text and it's Dennis Raider, btk. How do you feel about that?

[Susan Peters]

Doesn't matter. He's in prison. He gets things like this. Dennis Raider has access to a tablet, to a television, to all these things, and it's not fair. I have the feeling he wants publicity now.

[Larry Hatteberg]

Well, what I understand is everybody in the prison has access to this, and they only get it if they're good. Now, if they violate prison rules or regulations, then television is taken away, the tablets are taken away.

[Susan Peters]

Why would he violate any rules? He wants his tablet. He wants his television.

[Larry Hatteberg]

He has in the past. He's been bad.

[Susan Peters]

He has.

[Larry Hatteberg]

I don't know what he's done, but he's. He's been bad in the past, and they have taken things away from him.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Susan, in this most recent letter, it says that you were never a project.

[Larry Hatteberg]

How does that make you feel?

[Susan Peters]

Wish I would have known that 20 years ago. Wish I would have known it 20 years ago. It would have saved me a lot of stress, a lot of fear, a lot of angst. But hearing that I wasn't a project now, first of all, how do you believe a murder? Who knows when he's lying and when he's not lying. But hearing it now, it makes no difference whatsoever. It's almost like, how dare him even say my name. You're nothing now. You're nothing now. You were nothing then and you're even less than nothing now. This is the first time I've realized that we have never had these conversations about BTK and that I've never really cried in front of Larry about btk.

[Larry Hatteberg]

It's interesting. When I'm sitting across from Susan now, I'm fascinated with her comments because it's the first time I've heard many of these things. And so we're sort of reliving it again.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Susan Peters]

I got recruited into the mob when I was 17 years old.

[Ryan Seacrest]

People are dying. Is he doing this every night? Kenny was a Chicago firefighter who lived a secret double life as a mafia hitman.

[Larry Hatteberg]

I had a wife and I had two children.

[Susan Peters]

Nobody knew anything.

[Ryan Seacrest]

He was a freaking crazy man. He was my father and I had no idea about any of this. Until now. Crook county is available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In Mississippi, Yazoo clay keeps secrets.

[Larry Hatteberg]

7,000 bodies out there or more.

[Ryan Seacrest]

A forgotten asylum cemetery.

[Larry Hatteberg]

It was my family's mystery.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Shame, guilt, propriety. Something keeps it all buried deep until it's not. I'm Larison Campbell and this is under Yazoo Clay.

[Susan Peters]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Have you ever wondered if your pet is lying to you, why is my.

[Susan Peters]

Cat not here and I go in.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And she's eating my lunch? Or if HYPNOTISM is real. You will use the suggestion in order.

[Larry Hatteberg]

To enhance your cognitive controls.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But what's inside a black hole? Black holes could be a consequence of the way that we understand the universe. Well, we have answers for you in the new iHeart original podcast, Science Stuff. Join me, Jorge Ham, as we answer questions about animals, space, our brains and our bodies. So give yourself permission to be a science geek and listen to science stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.