Hunting the Hunter

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer

Episode: Hunting the Hunter
Date: June 22, 2026
Host: Josh Zieman (with contributions from Mark Safarik, Joe Jacalone, Rodney Harrison)
Production: iHeartPodcasts and Tenderfoot TV

---

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the long-awaited breakthrough in the Long Island Serial Killer case, focusing on the plea agreement of Rex Heuermann — the accused serial killer — and his decision to cooperate with the FBI’s Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU). Host Josh Zieman, true crime filmmaker and investigator, explores why it took years for authorities to make an arrest, the significance of Heuermann’s impending interviews with the FBI, and the complex interplay between law enforcement profilers and serial killers who study them in turn.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Dual Life of Rex Heuermann

• Heuermann’s Contradictory Personas: Outwardly a "doting husband and father," Heuermann also led a secret life filled with deception, burner phones, and murder.
  • “For years, Rex Heuermann led two lives... the life behind that suburban facade, the life of fake names, burner phones, and the women that he murdered.” (Josh Zieman, 04:11)

2. The Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU) and Its Role

• BAU’s Significance: The FBI’s BAU has a storied history of profiling serial killers, aiming to understand motives, planning, and criminal behaviors to aid current and future investigations.
  • “That unit is one of its core missions, is like a clinical role... to interview the defendant, gain insight into his motivations and background...” (Mark Safarik, 04:49)
• Pop Culture vs. Reality: References to Mindhunter and Silence of the Lambs illustrate the gap between the mythos and the painstaking, detailed reality of profiling work.
  • “By the time Silence of the Lambs had won an Oscar... this highly dramatized battle of the minds had become part of our cultural mythology.” (Josh Zieman, 09:11)

3. The Unique Nature of Heuermann’s Agreement

• A Serial Killer Who Studied Profilers: Heuermann not only learned from the mistakes of other murderers but specifically analyzed the mindsets and methodologies of profilers, leveraging books like Mindhunter to avoid detection.
  • “He was studying the mindhunters that were now about to study him, becoming part of the very same process he once tried to understand.” (Josh Zieman, 06:21)

4. The Purpose and Challenges of the FBI Interviews

• Research, Not Prosecution: The BAU’s interviews with Heuermann are “clinical,” intended for insight and research—not for additional prosecution.
  • “These are clinical interviews. Those aren’t investigative interviews. So they could gain insight and knowledge going forward on new cases.” (Mark Safarik, 04:49)
• Potential for Countermeasures: Law enforcement grapples with the dilemma of serial killers now using published investigative techniques as countermeasures.
  • “This guy used their quote unquote textbook against them... are we putting out too much information?... should be a concern now.” (Joe Jacalone, 11:28)

5. Interview Process and Dynamics

• Multi-Stage, In-Depth Process: Not a single dramatic confrontation—interviews are spread over days or weeks, building rapport and dissecting life history before delving into crimes.
  • “It's very difficult to do an interview like that for a couple of reasons ... you can’t just go interview somebody without really having a micro analysis of all of the cases and all of the evidence.” (Mark Safarik, 19:12)
• Detecting Deceit: Profilers must be expert in case details to catch manipulations and lies; serial killers, especially psychopaths, try to control the narrative and test their interrogators.
  • “You as a serial killer and a psychopath, you're going to try to manipulate the conversation and you're going to be trying to get information from the profilers as much as they're trying to get information from you.” (Mark Safarik, 19:12)

6. Why Serial Killers Talk—and Why We Should Be Skeptical

• Questioning Motives: Is Heuermann’s cooperation driven by ego, a desire to manipulate, or self-preservation? Is he seeking to control how he is perceived, or simply testing the limits of the profilers?
  • “Maybe the danger isn't just that Rex will lie, but that he knows exactly how much truth to give. Just enough to make us think he's finally opening up, but not enough to reveal what he wants to keep hidden. Because with Rex, what he doesn't say, what he leaves out may be just as important. Silence can also be a strategy.” (Josh Zieman, 42:06)
• The “Misleader” Concept: Discussed as a critical strategy in Heuermann’s planning, representing intentional misinformation to throw off investigators.
  • “The word he wrote was misleader, as in misinformation, as in something that looks like a clue but is intentionally used to point us in the wrong direction.” (Josh Zieman, 44:22)

7. Broader Law Enforcement Implications

• Learning from the Outliers: Each serial killer offers unique insight; understanding what sets one apart (such as sexual sadism and unusual planning) advances the field and may help prevent future tragedies.
  • “Serial killers are very different from one another…understanding the thought process helps us understand these different dynamics, and it's different for every serial killer.” (Mark Safarik, 26:31)

8. Skepticism Among Investigators

• Doubts About Transparency: Ex-law enforcement officials are wary of Heuermann’s motivations and transparency. They caution that any supposed revelations must be taken with suspicion.
  • “I don't think it's strange. I don't think. I think it's a great idea... but I don't know how transparent or forthcoming he's going to be.” (Rodney Harrison, 40:30)
  • “I don't believe anything Rex tells me. Not a word. And the behavioral analysis unit are going to have a fifth with the student because he's going to string this along.” (Joe Jacalone, 42:48)

9. The Victims and Their Families

• Impending Sentencing: The episode closes noting that the next time Rex speaks publicly will be during sentencing, but victims’ families will also have a chance to address the court directly—a moment of profound significance.
  • “But Rex won't be the only one to address the court. The victim's families will finally have their chance to speak to him directly. And I guarantee you their words will be heard loud and clear.” (Josh Zieman, 44:22)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On serial killers studying profilers:
  “He was studying the mindhunters that were now about to study him, becoming part of the very same process he once tried to understand.”
  — Josh Zieman ([06:21])

• On the process of interviewing serial offenders:
  “It's very difficult to do an interview like that for a couple of reasons ... you can’t just go interview somebody without really having a micro analysis of all of the cases and all of the evidence.”
  — Mark Safarik ([19:12])

• On Heuermann’s potential for manipulation:
  “He may give the BAU something real, a detail, a memory, a piece of what happened, but only to protect another secret, other victims he still hasn't admitted to or parts of this story he still wants to keep buried.”
  — Josh Zieman ([44:22])

• On skepticism towards Heuermann’s cooperation:
  “I don't believe anything Rex tells me. Not a word. And the behavioral analysis unit are going to have a fifth with the student because he's going to string this along.”
  — Joe Jacalone ([42:48])

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:11] Introduction of Heuermann's double life
• [04:49] Mark Safarik on the BAU’s goals and techniques
• [11:28] Joe Jacalone questions whether law enforcement gives away too much via public insight
• [19:12] Mark Safarik explains the intensive BAU interview process
• [26:31] The importance of each killer’s unique psychology
• [31:02] Discussion on the challenge of detecting honesty, and the lengthy process required
• [40:30] Rodney Harrison on law enforcement skepticism
• [42:48] Jacalone expresses outright distrust in Heuermann's potential disclosures
• [44:22] The concept of the “misleader” and the challenge of separating truth from misdirection

---

Tone and Style Notes

The episode maintains a careful, investigative tone, blending the tension of true crime reporting with the methodical, sometimes clinical approach of experienced law enforcement and behavioral experts. Commentary alternates between deeply skeptical law enforcement perspectives and cautious, hopeful analysis of what the BAU interviews might yield for unsolved cases and future investigations.

---

Conclusion

“Hunting the Hunter” probes the high-stakes psychological chess match between the FBI’s most experienced profilers and a serial killer who has studied their every move. The episode underscores the limits of what even the sharpest investigators might glean when a perpetrator's true motivations and memories are buried beneath layers of deception — and reinforces that the final answers may rest more in collective diligence than in a single dramatic confession.

For further episodes and to binge the season, listeners are invited to subscribe via iHeart True Crime Plus.

---

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only then full price plan opt and fees extra fee full [e-mail] your social media

[American Medical Association Representative]

feed delivers plenty of advice, but it doesn't know you. It doesn't ask questions. It doesn't give physical exams or order tests doctors do at the American Medical association, we believe the best care starts with a real conversation with someone who understands the science and your unique health. So stay curious, ask questions. But when it's time to make decisions, make them with a doctor. Learn more at amahealth versus hype.org that's amahealthvshipe.org this is Bethany Frankel from Just

[Bethenny Frankel]

Be with Bethenny Frankel. Let me be blunt. Most dog food is junk. It just is. And I'm not feeding junk to Biggie and Smalls. That is why they eat just food for dogs. It's real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize, not mystery pellets pretending to be healthy. And once I switched, the difference was obvious. Better digestion, better skin, more energy, dogs who actually feel good. And instead of just surviving dinner, here's the thing you care about quality. You make an intentional choice to be healthy. So why are you gambling with your dog's health? So let's think about our furry babies. Go to justfoodfordogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code. Just try it. Because once you see the difference, you're not going back.

[Payne Lindsey]

Is the government hiding proof of intelligent life beyond our planet? A new season of High strange is here. The explanation keeps changing, but the stories don't go away.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Videos appearing to show UFOs flying through

[Podcast Narrator]

the air are real.

[Payne Lindsey]

My name is Payne Lindsey and my new season of high strange goes deeper into real encounters, first hand accounts and the explanations that never seem to stick.

[Cindy Crawford / Meredith (podcast host)]

Images of that rotating thing captured by US Navy aircraft.

[Payne Lindsey]

I talk to scientists, military witnesses, pilots and people who saw something they can't unsee.

[Josh Zieman]

There is no other explanation for what we saw that day. I remembered those faces, and they weren't human.

[Payne Lindsey]

High strange seasons one and two are available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Season three of High Strange is coming June 26th. For ad free listening, subscribe to [e-mail]

[Podcast Narrator]

New episodes are released weekly absolutely free, but you can binge the entire season now with iHeart True Crime PL exclusively on Apple Podcasts. You'll also get ad free listening and exclusive bonus episodes, so head to Apple Podcasts, search I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. You're listening to Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals participating in the podcast and do not reflect those of Tenderfoot TV or iHeartMedia. This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

[Josh Zieman]

Mr. Healman, has anyone, myself, your lawyer,

[Joe Jacalone]

the prosecutor, or anyone else made any

[Josh Zieman]

promises to you in return for your plea of guilty?

[Mark Safrak]

Yes, your honor, Mr. Tierney has indicated

[Joe Jacalone]

in exchange for the pleas that we're

[Mark Safrak]

going to enter into this morning, my

[Josh Zieman]

client is also obligated to completely truthfully

[Joe Jacalone]

cooperate with the Federal Bureau of Investigations

[Mark Safrak]

Behavioral Analysis Unit as part of what we've just discussed.

[Joe Jacalone]

Any other promises made to you?

[Bethenny Frankel]

No.

[Josh Zieman]

What happens when a man who spent his entire life hiding behind a mask says he's finally ready to tell the truth? Because for years, Rexuerman led two lives. That of the doting husband and father who commuted every day to work. And then the life behind that suburban facade, the life of fake names, burner phones, and the women that he murdered. And now, as part of his guilty plea, Rex Heuermann has agreed to sit down with the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, the very same people trained to look behind that mask to delve into the mind behind those crimes.

[Mark Safrak]

One of the many great units that the FBI has is Behavioral Analysis Unit. And that unit is one of its core missions, is like a clinical role. In other words, they're going to interview the defendant, gain insight into his motivations and background as a sort of an academic and scientific exercise. Those are clinical interviews. Those aren't investigative interviews. So they could gain insight and knowledge going forward on new cases.

[Josh Zieman]

According to DA Tierney, the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit wanted to study wrecks, as they had studied so many serial killers over the years. It was the kind of work made famous by John Douglas and Robert Ressler, chronicled in the book Minehunter Agents Sitting Face to Face with some of the most notorious serial killers in history. Charles Manson, Son of Sam, Ed Kemper, Dennis Rader. Trying to understand not just what they did, but why they did it. And now they wanted to understand Rex Heuerman. But Rex wasn't just your average serial killer. You might say he was a bit of a student himself. One who studied other serial killers, Analyzing their mistakes and how they got caught. But then using that knowledge to avoid capture. As we saw in his infamous planning

[Mark Safrak]

document, the task force discovered a Microsoft Word document. This is a planning document. And it was utilized by Yurman to methodically blueprint and plan out his kills with excruciating detail.

[Josh Zieman]

And that's what makes this all so strange. Because Rex wasn't just mapping out the mistakes that serial killers make. He was also analyzing the thinking, the logic of the profilers that caught them. He was studying the mindhunters that were now about to study him, Becoming part of the very same process he once tried to understand. But why? Why would Rex agree to this? Is it because this charade is finally over, and now Rex is willing to tell the truth? Or is this about ego? After all, he had outwitted the Suffolk County PD for nearly two decades. So did Rex now want to test his skills against the very best? To know once and for all whether the student had finally become the master? Or was this just about self preservation? Another attempt to control the story, to tell anyone who would listen that he wasn't as bad as his crimes, that there weren't any other victims, hoping that his family and others would still be there and forgive him. Because if there's one thing we've learned about Rex Heuermann, it's that every word, every detail, every version of the events is carefully constructed. Except now, for the very first time, he's about to tell his story to the people trained to see right through it. I'm Josh Zieman, and this is monster hunting the Long island serial killer. The roots of the Behavioral analysis unit go all the way back to 1972, when, in response to this growing wave of sexual assaults, homicides, and violent crimes, the FBI created what was then called the behavioral science unit. By 1976, agents began traveling across the country, sitting down with serial predators to try and understand their newfound presence, their motives, and why they chose their victims. But for most people, the first glimpse of the BSU came from Hollywood with the 1991 thriller Silence of the lambs. Starlight. Clarissa says here, when you graduate, you

want to come to work for me in behavioral science.

[Cindy Crawford / Meredith (podcast host)]

Yes, very much, sir. Very much.

[Mark Safrak]

We're interviewing all the serial killers now

[Josh Zieman]

in custody for psycho.

Behavioral profile could be a real help in unsolved cases. Who's the subject? The psychiatrist Hannibal Lecter. By the time Silence of the Lambs had won an Oscar for best picture, this highly dramaticized battle of the minds between serial killer and profiler had become part of our cultural mythology. Then in 1995, came FBI profiler John Douglas seminal true crime book Mindhunter. In it, Douglas revealed how decades of interviews with killers like Ed Kemper and Robert Hanson had shaped the practice of criminal profiling. And then finally, in 2017, came David Fincher's acclaimed adaptation of Mindhunter, elevating this profile or myth making to epic proportions. When we know who the the criminal

[Joe Jacalone]

is, we can understand what set him off.

[Josh Zieman]

The question is not only why did the killer do it, but why did the killer do it this way?

Which brings us back to Rex Hman. Because Rex wasn't just watching this world from the outside like the rest of us. He was inside it, living it, studying it, and using it.

[Mark Safrak]

We allege that the defendant was looking at Mindhunter, which was written by a FBI serial killer analyst, not to gain insight into the mind of a serial killer. He was looking to gain insight into how it is that investigators capture serial killers.

[Josh Zieman]

So the question isn't just why did Rex agree to meet with the bau? It's what does the BAU hope to get by meeting with him? What do they actually think he can tell them? And whether any of this can be trusted. Which is a question I discussed with former NYPD Police Commander Joseph Jacalum. One of the first things that I think that shocked me and so many people is this idea that Rex Uhman is going to be interviewed by the Behavioral Analysis Unit. This is Mindhunter. These are the guys. Which is so crazy, Joe, because we talked about how he read Mindhunter, used it against them, and now they're like, bringing him in. What's your thoughts on this?

[Joe Jacalone]

That is the exact thought. I mean, we know that District Attorney Ray Tierney said it was basically for educational kind of thing where they want to learn about it. This wasn't about future prospects of prosecution. But, Josh, you kind of hit the nail right on the head as far as I'm concerned. And that is this guy used their quote unquote textbook against them. And I think we're going to look at this and say, you know, are we putting out too much information? Are we giving up too many clues about how we operate, how we think as investigators? I Mean, this is something that should be a concern now, because why it comes up in Kohberger, too, right? You have a PhD student in criminology.

[American Medical Association Representative]

It's two months to the day that four University of Idaho students were brutally murdered. Bryan Kohberger was a PhD student studying

[Josh Zieman]

criminology classes at Washington State University in

[Joe Jacalone]

law enforcement to make a pattern, Right? So if you look at Coburger and you look at Rex, you have a pattern now. But I honestly think that the FBI wants to talk to him. Not so much. Hey, this is another serial killer, right? I mean, we have plenty of research on the ones we have. It's not like, you know, things have changed dramatically, but did he take that extra step and use it as countermeasure and all those other things that go along with it? Because you and I have talked about, was he trying to turn off investigators from. Between, you know, just from the organizing and disorganized serial killer typology. Right. And then when we hear about that the FBI was going to be involved in this and they're going to have to do that, you start saying, wow, you know, we were in the right church, maybe not the right pew, but, you know, the right church and going in that direction. So to me, that's kind of exciting because we followed this case for so long that we put together many of the parts of the puzzle without knowing the background on it. And I think now we're going to, you know, learn some of the background.

[Josh Zieman]

He had the Mindhunter book in his home. He's studying Mindhunter, and now he's being asked to join that the group of individuals. I mean, this must have been such a joy to him now. So why would the FBI do it? Look, there's no trial. There's a lot of details that investigators want that they're not going to get. Could this have been a secret way, playing to Rex's ego, for them to get information so that the investigators could find the other people, like, tell us about all the things that you did. But they're really getting information that they weren't able to get in trial, so there could be another reason. Or were they like, we know you had studied us to evade. So they're like, we want to know what you know about us and we know about you. Like, this way to find out how serial killers and other offenders today are using what the BA knows to commit these crimes. So now they want to learn about that so that they can stop that from happening. There's so many different reasons. Who knows? We can endlessly speculate about what led Rex to agree to meet with the bau, whether it was ego, control, or some kind of strategy. And then, on the other side of that table, what does the FBI really want from him? But all this speculation only gets you so far. The truth is, if you really want to know why these serial killers agree and what happens in these rooms, you have to talk to someone who's actually been there. Someone who's actually sat across from men like Rex, studied them, challenged them, tried to pull something real out of them. Someone like Former FBI profiler Mark Safric.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year I've been scouting these big carriers for a minute now, and I've seen them pull the same play a thousand times. They promise you the world, then hit you with a price hike right when the game gets tight. But boost mobile, their $25 a month unlimited wireless plan is the most consistent player on the floor. No contracts and no price hikes. Unlock the Savings [e-mail] Unlock based on average annual single line payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months of the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of 2026. For full offer details, visit Boost Mobile.com

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmo have you

[Cindy Crawford]

ever wondered why some people seem to age slower? Like they figured out some secret the rest of us missed? Well, it turns out someone actually did. And it starts with a melon. Yep, a melon. There's a rare French melon that stays fresh four times longer than the fruit you and I buy at the store. Scientists discovered it produces an extraordinarily high level of a super antioxidant called sod, the kind that helps defend skin from the visible signs of of aging. And get this meaningful beauty partnered with world renowned French cosmetic specialist Dr. Jean Louis Sabah to capture that melon's youth, preserving power in a skincare line you can actually use every day. So if you're tired of trying products that all promise the same thing. This one is truly different because it starts with something nature designed to stay young. Subscribe today and get the complete introductory system for just $49.95 at meaningful beauty.com you'll also get two free gifts, free shipping and a 60 day money back guarantee. Visit meaningful beauty.com and order today.

[Bethenny Frankel]

This is Bethany Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel. Most dog food is marketing, not nutrition. That is why Biggie and Smalls eat just food for dogs. Real 100% human grade food with ingredients I actually recognize. And yes, I do see the difference. Better digestion, healthier skin, more energy, dogs that feel better. My babies. If you've been on the fence about switching, stop overthinking it. What's more important than your furry babies and their health? Go to justfood4dogs.com right now and get 50% off your first box. No code needed. Just try it.

[Josh Zieman]

For decades, law enforcement has turned to the BAU in hopes of understanding the darkest minds imaginable. Understanding their patterns, their impulses, their need for control. And now Rex Heuermann is stepping into that very same arena. But this interview is different because Rex isn't your average serial killer. He spent years studying the very techniques designed to expose men just like him. So why agree to it? Why sit down across from someone who has the training and most importantly, the experience to see right through you? Former FBI profiler Mark Safrak spent decades in that room interviewing violent offenders, breaking down their decisions, including why they talk and when they don't. Which is why once we learned that Rex had agreed to speak with the bau, we quickly went back to Mark to find out what may be driving Rex and what the BAU can expect when they finally sit down across from him. Let's talk about these interviews because I think people watch a lot of television, they watch a lot of Mindhunter, they get these interviews incorrect. So can you tell us what these interviews are, what they mean? What will happen with the information that's given in these interviews?

I think it's important to give a little history about this. So that's what I always try to do when I'm talking to either law enforcement or others. In the early 70s, police officers from around the world would attend the National Academy at the FBI. And many times they would bring cases with them, unusual homicide cases that were unsolved. And they'd bring them to the behavioral Sciences unit and they would ask the agents there, like, can you help us with this case? But we looked at these cases and like, well, we don't have any history with cases like this, don't know about these offenders. And that's really what started the story of Mindhunter, the show, this initial research. Like, so we need to understand who these people are, how do they select their victims, how do they feel, what are they concerned about, what is going on with them during the crime? Are they excited? Are they sexually aroused, Are they angry? Why are they making these choices? And that was what started our look into these individuals. One of the research projects I worked on was we studied serial rapists and we went out across the country and we interviewed serial rapists to understand what is that dynamic? How are you selecting your victims? What type of rapists are these? What would they do? What was their interaction with these victims? How did they think about the crimes, what were they concerned about? So this has been a long process and a lot of published research has come out when we look at serial killers, mass murderers, spree killers, serial rapists. So this interview with Heuerman is just another progression of that research. So I think when people talk about this, I think what they think of is that the FBI profilers are going to go see Rex when he's incarcerated, wherever he's incarcerated, and interview him one time. But that's not the process. It's very difficult to do an interview like that for a couple of reasons. One is we almost never expect a one time dump of information. So the first thing that we have to do is we have to understand all of the crimes. We have to understand what evidence is available for every single crime. We have to understand the timeline. We have to understand essentially everything that the prosecution collected. Because it's important for us when we're interviewing somebody to know when they're not telling us the truth. So you can't just go interview somebody without really having sort of a micro analysis of all of the cases and all of the evidence. So that's very important. Right, because you as a serial killer and a psychopath, you're going to try to manipulate the conversation and you're going to be trying to get information from the profilers as much as they're trying to get information from you. So that's the premise that you should always start with, is they're going to lie to me and they're going to be trying to get information from me. And the only way I can circumvent that is to be extremely conversant about the crimes. Because when they start to go off track or they start to tell you something that is not true. You can call them on it. And individuals, psychopaths actually appreciate that. They appreciate the fact that you have done your homework, that they're dealing with somebody that is a smart individual who understands, like, if I start lying and he calls me on it and okay, yeah, good for him. He knows about this case. So that's the first thing. You have to be really conversant in the cases. Secondly, this will be a process because you have to develop a level of rapport with individuals. And that rapport just does not happen in one interview over hours. It happens over days and over weeks. And so that's really important to develop that rapport. Now, when I say rapport, I don't mean that you respect that individual or that you trust them. It just means that you have a level of communication in which they feel comfortable talking to you. And that's the goal. And then you don't start with the crimes. You start with his history. Because it's really important for us to know. We know some history about him growing up, but we want his take on that. We want to understand how he developed what was going on in schools, how was he bullied, how did he feel about that, how did he react to that? And so you bring him along in terms of you getting to understand his whole history that leads up to his first marriage and role playing and compliant victims and practice. We want to understand all of these dynamics about how he prepared himself. And because how he prepared himself in 1993 is going to be very different than what he's doing in 2010. And we have to understand that progress. And where did all of this concern about cell phones and surveillance cameras, where did that come from? Did he just think that stuff up because he would see surveillance cameras or he watched television shows or they were tracking cell phones? Like, we want to know the thought process of all of these crimes. And was he ever worried what concerned him? Did he ever think that police might seize my computer? I mean, many of them think they're smarter than law enforcement and that they're not going to get caught. I mean, they're not doing this thinking, oh, I'm definitely going to get caught one of these days. They're thinking that they're not going to get caught. And I think that's sort of borne out when you look at the distribution of his victims, right? When you first start off in your fantasy, like, everything works in the fantasy. It's all perfect. But that's not what happens in reality. Blood has an odor, it has a texture. It's messy. This stuff doesn't happen in your fantasy. So when you come up against obstacles like this, how do you adjust for that? And did he have to make those kinds of adjustments? Those are the kinds of things that we're looking for. How did he think about those things?

Considering the research, haven't we learned almost all of those things with. With other individuals? Is it still worth going in to figure out those things?

Absolutely. When we talk about serial killers, serial killers are very different from one another in race, in culture, in what's important to them, what's not important, how they look at and select victims, why he chose these types of victims. Other serial killers choose different types. Wayne Williams chose young black men. Jeffrey Dahmer, white guy, chose mostly young black men. Or you have guys like Richard Ramirez. His victims are all over the place. You got old victims, you got young victims, you got white victims, you got black victims. So understanding the thought process helps us understand these different dynamics, and it's different for every serial killer. But once we have all that information, we can start to categorize this guy as he's more like this killer that did these things. Whenever you have an offender that is taking somebody alive from a location, you're basically doing one of those, oh, crap. Because now you've got a guy who's not striking and killing the victim at that location and engaging in whatever they do, but purposely taking a living victim, which requires a lot of planning and control, especially if you have a vehicle. Like, how do you control them when you're driving the vehicle? Whenever I see living victims taken to some other location, that's a real problem. And then knowing the type of pornography that he was downloading. When we talk about sexual sadists, you know, once you realize you're likely dealing with a sexual sadist, very, very difficult cases to work because these guys are above average in intelligence, do a lot of planning for their crimes, and typically are pretty evidence conscious about what they leave. And it's fortunate that when you talk about sexual sadists in terms of homicide, sexual homicides being committed by sexual sadists, they're a very rare type of individual. And thank goodness, because they're difficult cases to work, difficult offenders to catch. So adding sexual sadism to your offender and his repertoire of activities, I would certainly place Rex in that much higher tier of organized, thoughtful, prepared offenders who will be difficult to identify. That's just the type of an offender who engages in that kind of thought process. And that kind of activity we don't know specifically, of course, and that is Certainly one thing that the profilers will be trying to ascertain from Rex, he's

getting into that higher profile. Like, okay, we've got to. We really need to understand this individual. He's unique, right?

And those individuals are rare. I mean, in terms of killers, when you take all homicides and then you go down to sexual homicides, it's a small, small percentage of homicides. And then when you go down to the sexual sadists that commit those homicides, it's a really, really small number. So we don't get an opportunity to, you know, have someone open up about their crimes and their activities. And hopefully he will, and we will understand why he selected these women, why they all look similar. Right? Because it's always a choice, right? He could choose any kind of sex worker that he wanted, but he has a very specific victim type. And why. Why is that? And then what was the approach? What kind of an approach did he use? Because he's a big guy and he can be intimidating. So how did you lower their inhibitions? How did you make them comfortable when they see you? These are all really important questions. And you don't get that information in one interview. You have to build that level of communication over multiple interviews, over days, I would say weeks.

Do you think he wants to tell? You know, this idea that, you know, he's enjoying the control of telling, is that sensationalistic stuff?

It's a great question, because we don't really know the parameters of this agreement. We just know that he's agreed to speak to them. And that's why I said earlier, like, it's so critical that the profilers understand in detail all of the crimes so you can sense when he's going off script. And also, being in his presence is very important because you start to read his body language when he's telling you the truth and when he's not telling you the truth. How does he change? How does his eye contact change? How does his body positioning change? We want to be aware of that. And that's why the, you know, in. In person interview is really, really important. But it's a good question because clearly we don't know what happened in the basement of his house. Right. We don't have victim. We have some victims that are dismembered and were found relatively quickly, but most of them are just bones. So, you know, asking those questions because once you understand, like, what is driving him. Him, right. What is there a sexual component to the crimes? Did you. Were you aroused at any time during this or were you aroused the whole time. Was it the control? Was it the power? Was it the suffering of the victim that made you aroused? That's what you want to suss out, right? That's why you go through in detail, like, his whole life history, his background. When did he start to think about things like this, and why and how did he feel when he thought about this? Was this arousing? Right. It is a very long process, and it's just going to take a long time to do it.

Does he want to, in your experience, again, this idea from Mindhunter, you know, I've been waiting to tell somebody about my brilliant crimes sometimes, right?

People are human beings. They're. They're motivated for different reasons. And I think once they start the interview and you start getting, like, the background information, right? Can we verify this? Like, is he truthful on all of this information? And then you start moving forward towards the crimes, those dates, practice. I think you'll get a sense of whether he's being honest or not. But again, like, you go into the interviews thinking, you know, this is a psychopath. Compulsive lying is a hallmark of psychopathy, as is manipulation, as is narcissism. So is he trying to get one over? Is he trying to control the narrative? Does he want to make it look less gruesome than it was? He may be trying to do these different things. That's why this is a process that takes a long time, and that's why you start way back here and you work up days or weeks later, you're now you're finally to this point, and then you have a sense of his level of honesty and truth and that sort of thing, which will help you as you move forward into the crimes where we don't have any information about actual actually what went on once he got these victims to his house.

Two important notes. If something comes up in these interviews that could be beneficial to investigators for another crime, is that information relayed? And number two, does any of this information ever get out publicly except when someone like yourself or Douglas kind of writes the book?

I guess it depends on what the parameters of the agreement are. There may be some parameters related to undiscovered cases. And I've seen cases where, you know, okay, we. If you talk about a case, if you give us a case, we're not going to charge you on it. It will allow us to solve the case, but you won't be charged. We want resolution or closure for the family of a victim. And if that means that we aren't going to charge you with it, then, okay. It's more important for us to find out who this victim was and, you know, give that family some closure. Because honestly, I mean, New York doesn't have the death penalty, so Heuerman's never getting out of prison. I mean, he's already in his 60s. I mean, he's never getting out of prison. So, you know, trying him on another case and, you know, saying, okay, and on top of the 300 years you have, we're going to give you 50 more years. I mean, it doesn't mean anything but solving a case.

So Mark's point is pretty clear. This isn't some dramatic one time, sit down, a battle of the mines where the FBI wins and Rex suddenly tells them everything. It's a process that starts with profilers learning this case from the inside out because Rex is not someone you can simply take at his word. He's going to lie, he's going to manipulate. He may even try and learn from them what they're trying to learn from him. And that's what makes this all so complicated. Because if the BAU does get him talking, they may learn things no trial could ever have shown us, like what happened inside that house, how he chose his victims, and whether there were others. But first they have to figure out what's real.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

Unlock the savings at Boost Mobile and save up to $600 a year. I've been scouting these big carriers for a minute now and I've seen them pull the same play a thousand times. They promise you the world, then hit you with a price hike right when the game gets tight. But boost mobile, their $25 a month unlimited wireless plan is the most consistent player on the floor. No contracts, no price hikes. Unlock the savings [e-mail] unlock based on average annual single line payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months of the Boost Mobile unlimited wireless plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com Ryan

[Ryan Reynolds]

Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super Easy to [e-mail]

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan Options available, taxes and fees, Extra fee. Full [e-mail] hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and

[Cindy Crawford / Meredith (podcast host)]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but, like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, bother saying that. Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

[Narrator/Host]

Think about it. When it comes to your own food, you can walk into a restaurant, see what's being made, and know exactly what you're getting. But with dog food, most brands keep that completely hidden. Just Food for Dogs does the opposite. They've built their entire brand around open kitchens. You can actually walk in and watch them prepare your dog's meals with real human grade ingredients like chicken, beef, carrots, and peas cooked right there in front of you. No mystery. No. Behind the scenes, you're not allowed to see. That kind of transparency is rare in the pet food world. And it's a big reason they've become the number one vet recommended fresh dog food, earning trust from pet parents who want to feel confident in what they're feeding. When a brand is willing to show you exactly how your dog's food is made, it says a lot about the care, quality, and standards behind every meal they produce. Nothing to hide. Everything to love. Go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order.

[Josh Zieman]

If Rex talks, there's a chance the BAU could learn something that no trial could ever have shown us. Most importantly, whether there were others, other victims that we've long suspected were tied to Rex. But that only matters if the BAU can separate truth from performance. And Rex has been performing for decades, ever since that first victim. Or at least that first victim we know about. Which is why former Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison sees value in Rex talking to the bau. But Rodney has had a front row to this investigation and to Rex himself from the start. And from what he's seen, he's not convinced that what Rex is offering now is the truth. Here's Rodney Harrison. What are your thoughts about this behavioral science unit mentioned in the plea? Strange. Kind of came out of nowhere. But what do you think about that?

[Rodney Harrison]

I don't think it's strange. I don't think. I think it's a great idea, if you ask me, just based upon what I've seen with Rex Sherman. I don't know how transparent or forthcoming he's going to be. Yeah, he said he's going to cooperate. Yeah. He's going to share, you know, his mindset on why he did this. I don't know. I. I have my. My different thoughts of just based upon what I've seen of him from. From behind the scenes. But I. I will say this. It will help investigators, especially from the FBI, to be able to get a better understanding with the mindset of why somebody would become a serial killing. That will help out future investigations. That's where the level of importance is going to come in, because you're able to kind of get a better understanding. And. God, listen, one thing we. I don't think anybody wants to see is another serial killer case. But unfortunately, the world that we live in, there's going to be another one.

[Josh Zieman]

But you said from what you saw behind the scenes that you don't think he's being transparent.

[Rodney Harrison]

I just. Why do I say that? Listen, you know, just him not coming forward in the beginning. Listen, it took him two and a half years to finally take a flea. Him smirking in the courtroom, other things that. That kind of troubled me with how he carried himself. You know, now he's going to be in a prison cell and now all of a sudden try to open up his mind why he did. Why he did what he did. I. I could be wrong. I could be wrong. Maybe he is. Maybe he will be forthcoming, but maybe it's just me being pessimistic.

[Josh Zieman]

If Rex Urman has proven anything over the years is that he knows how to play the long game, how to wait, how to hide, how to give people only what he wants them to see. So maybe the danger isn't just that Rex will lie, but that he knows exactly how much truth to give. Just enough to make us think he's finally opening up, but not enough to reveal what he wants to keep hidden. Because with Rex, what he doesn't say, what he leaves out may be just as important. Silence can also be a strategy. And even the truth can be weaponized. Here again is Joe Jackalone.

[Joe Jacalone]

I don't believe anything Rex tells me. Not a word. And the behavioral analysis unit are going to have a fifth with the student because he's going to string this along. He's got 700 years he's looking at. He is going to make these guys

[Josh Zieman]

come back for a long, long time.

[Joe Jacalone]

He's not going to give him anything.

[Josh Zieman]

You know, somebody asked me, are we going to learn what the FBI is going to glean from interviewing Rex? No, that stuff's not going to be made public at all.

[Joe Jacalone]

Right? No, I seriously doubt it. You know, I know they're going to get into like, you know, how he thinks and how he does it. But also he was using John Douglas's book. Right. Mindhunter. And how are we putting out too much information out there regarding meaning law enforcement? Are we putting out too much information there that people are using this now as countermeasures in order to avoid detection and all the other things that go along with it? And I think, I don't know for sure but I think that might be the crux of this whole thing.

[Josh Zieman]

And of course the fact is is that we know that Rex is only going to say part of the truth and that's what these guys do. I mean you've interviewed I can't imagine how many criminals, criminals, murderers, you've interviewed.

[Joe Jacalone]

Yeah, no, nobody tells you the truth. I don't, I don't anticipate Rex telling the truth. I don't even give him 50 of the truth. Right. I mean I'll give maybe 25 in that, that 25 of what he tells you is going to be taken with a grain of salt as well. He's going to be very self serving. I mean even the fact that he's kind of trying to hammer home. There's only eight. There's only eight. There'S only eight.

[Rodney Harrison]

Right.

[Joe Jacalone]

I mean, I don't buy it. And I think there's a of lot more than eight. And I, I, I'm hoping that the, the cold case task force, now that it's freed up from this trial are going to be hitting these cases hard.

[Josh Zieman]

Joe brings up an important point because there's another danger here, one we haven't really talked about. Yes, Rex may lie as he's been doing for decades. He may deny as he once did or he may lie by omission as some believe he's doing now. But there's something in else, something in that planning document. I can't stop thinking about a word in Rex's blueprint for committing the perfect crime. The word he wrote was misleader, as in misinformation, as in something that looks like a clue but is intentionally used to point us in the wrong direction. And that may be the problem with Rex talking now. He may give the BAUs something real, a detail, a memory, a piece of what happened, but only to protect another secret, other victims he still hasn't admitted to or parts of this story he still wants to keep buried. But there's one final moment ahead. Sentencing. One final day in court. One more chance for Rex Heuermann to speak public publicly. And if he does, we'll be listening closely. Listening for the truth. Or for one more version of the story he wants to tell. Or even for that silence that may speak volumes. But Rex won't be the only one to address the court. The victim's families will finally have their chance to speak to him directly. And I guarantee you their words will be heard loud and clear. Ready to keep listening? Remember, you can binge the rest of the season right now with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts Plus. You get exclusive bonuses and ad free listening. So head to Apple Podcasts, search I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart podcasts, hosted, written and executive produced by me, Josh Zieman produced and written by Kaitlin Colford. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot tv. Matt Frederick and Trevor Young are executive producers on behalf of iHeart podcasts. Original music by Alex Lacarenko, David Little and makeup and vanity set. Our supervising producer is John Street. Editing and writing by Daniel Lonsberry. Additional voiceover provided by Rachel Mills Additional production provided by Ghost Robot Sound design, mix and master by Dayton Cole Cover Design by Byron McCoy Interns Arnetta Fontenot, Shelby Hansen, Alec Walker and Fox Williams. A and e Television Networks, LLC. Audio from the Killing Season used under license copyright 2025 A&E Television Networks, LLC. All rights reserved. Special thanks to the team at United Talent Agency, the Nord Group, Brad Abramson, Todd Leibowitz, Rich Perillo and Jigsaw Productions, Rachel Mills, Zachary Mortensen, Jen Beagle, David Baker, Joe Jacalone and Evan Krause, as well as the teams at iHeart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on social media at MonsterPod. For more podcasts like Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, search Tenderfoot TV in your podcast app or visit Tenderfoot tv. And if you want to keep following my hunt for the Long Island Serial Killer or a deeper dive into my other true crime content, join me on YouTube at Sinister with Josh Zieman.

[Podcast Advertiser]

Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odoo comes in. An all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together, from sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odoo.com iheartradio that's O-O-O-O.com iheartradio There's a difference between

[Redfin Advertiser]

liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream Ryan Reynolds

[Ryan Reynolds]

here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big Wireless Way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month, of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Mint Mobile Advertiser]

of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]

[Cindy Crawford / Meredith (podcast host)]

do you like a good ghost story? Maybe you wonder what it would be like to communicate with the other side? Well, put your Ouija boards away and just listen to Rattled and Shook. I'm your host, Meredith, and we've got a new season of Rattled and Shook available now, including themed episodes, guests games and immersive creepy stories sent in by real people about haunted hotels, satanic panic and ghosts galore. A new season of Rattled and Shook is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

[Narrator/Host]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Cindy Crawford / Meredith (podcast host)]

Guaranteed Human.