Inside Monster: Hunting L.I.S.K (with Maggie Freleng and Josh Zeman)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer

Episode: Inside Monster: Hunting L.I.S.K (with Maggie Freleng and Josh Zeman)

Release Date: January 15, 2026
Host: Josh Zeman
Guest: Maggie Freleng

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive conversation between host and documentarian Josh Zeman and investigative journalist Maggie Freleng. Together, they explore the origins and process behind the "Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer" podcast, discuss Zeman’s earlier investigative work on the notorious LISK case, unpack the sociocultural backstory of Long Island, and consider the systemic failures and corruption that allowed a serial killer to evade capture for so long. The discussion further dissects lingering case mysteries, the psychology of the alleged killer Rex Heuermann, and ongoing questions as the story continues to develop.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Why Long Island? Social and Cultural Factors

• Long Island as a breeding ground for crime:
  • Zeman and Freling discuss Long Island’s unique character — a mix of suburbia, economic strength, and underlying pressure to conform.
  • Quote:
    “Is it because it is the original bedroom community, Levittown?... is that pressure to be—to conform and be bucolic—does that result in a lot of really aberrant behavior boiling underneath the surface?”
    (Josh Zeman, 04:03)
• Environmental and social theories:
  • Discussion includes hypotheses ranging from pollution to social pressures fueling aberrant behavior (05:02-05:37).

2. Zeman’s Background and Path to the Case

• Filmmaking and documentary origins:
  • Zeman shares how early experiences, including growing up with a library of mystery novels and meeting icons like Stephen King, led to his interest in crime (07:37-08:02).
• Transition from film to podcasting for deeper storytelling:
  • Podcasting became a way for Zeman to tell longer, more nuanced versions of crime stories constrained by film/TV (08:28-09:47).

3. Revisiting Evidence and the "Jinx" Moment

• The chilling nearness to the killer:
  • Zeman recounts realizing their team, a decade earlier, had brushed up against pivotal clues—like the killer’s identity as a duck hunter—without understanding their significance at the time (10:18-11:46).
  • Quote:
    “There were all these kind of clues... when you go back and look through all the footage, there’s all these really subtle moments... It’s just so interesting to kind of go back and look.”
    (Josh Zeman, 11:57)

4. Systemic Roadblocks: Policing, Corruption, and Lost Clues

• Failures by Suffolk County Police:
  • Key clue (Chevy Avalanche) reported by a victim’s roommate was relayed multiple times but not acted on due to internal politics and possible intentional obstruction. (12:53-15:15)
  • Quote:
    “I don’t think it was somebody kind of like overlooking something that got pushed in a file. I think there had to be... some sort of obfuscation... information from the detectives was not being passed along to the higher-ups.”
    (Josh Zeman, 14:10)
• The role of James Burke and power struggles:
  • Outlines how power grabs and personal agendas among leadership subverted the investigation and fostered a culture of impunity (15:15-16:13).
  • “He didn’t have to kill—he could just, he was just such a... bad guy that he could abuse his power.”
    (Josh Zeman, 15:35)

5. Culture of Corruption in Suffolk County

• Entrenched systems and political power:
  • Police unions act like a “super pac” controlling local politics, and corruption remains deeply embedded.
    (19:06-21:19)
  • Even disgraced former officials retain pensions and support.
  • Quote:
    “The system is rigged in some respects.”
    (Josh Zeman, 20:25)

6. Victimology: How Many Unknown Victims?

• Patterns and behavioral analysis:
  • Experts suggest that the sexual sadism driving such crimes typically wanes with age, but there’s likely more than the current known victims (21:41-23:40).
  • Discussion about early victims, the possibility of multiple killers (like Bitroff), and why the number remains uncertain (24:12-27:02).

7. Theories of Multiple Killers and Cover

• Possible intersection of two serial killers:
  • Explores the coincidental timelines and locations between Heuermann and another killer, John Bitroff, and the theory Rex may have mimicked another’s crimes as a “forensic counter-measure.”
    (24:47-28:02)
  • Quote:
    “There could be a kind of competition or something like that. How do you account for Bitroff putting his first victim, and then two weeks later, Rex starting with his first victim?”
    (Josh Zeman, 27:00)
• Shannon Gilbert case:
  • Zeman expresses skepticism that Gilbert was murdered by the killer and sees her discovery as a tragic coincidence leading to the other victims (28:02-29:33).

8. The Arrest of Rex Heuermann

• Surprise and skepticism:
  • Initial disbelief met with mounting evidence linking Heuermann to the case; credible once his background, locations, and habits matched the profile (29:40-30:23).
• Political interference in investigations:
  • Details about how DA infighting and manipulation further muddied the investigation (30:24-31:43).

9. Telling Evidence & Why Heuermann Fits

• Buried clothing at Jones Beach (34:19-37:35):

  • Zeman shares new information about Heuermann’s summer job at Jones Beach and his teenage habit of stealing and burying women’s clothing as trophies—details that eerily line up with forensic finds.

  • Quote:
    “Then you learn, like, how he loved Jones Beach and how he knew Jones Beach and Ocean Parkway... obviously the beach, Jones Beach and Ocean Parkway is a thing, a real thing for him.”
    (Josh Zeman, 36:21)

10. Nature vs. Nurture: The Making of a Killer

• Psychological insights into Heuermann:
  • Discusses mix of childhood trauma (bullying, abuse, parental death), psychological predisposition, and social isolation forming a “perfect storm” for the development of a sexual sadist killer.
  • Notable Explanation:
    “Nature is the gun, and nurture pulls the trigger... With serial murder, I think it’s like the mixture has to be there. All the elements.”
    (Josh Zeman, 39:53)

11. Prevention and Societal Responsibility

• Early interventions could save lives:
  • Emphasizes that the signs were visible (“red flags all there”), and that simply supporting and intervening with isolated, bullied kids could have prevented tragedies.
  • Quote:
    “If there was a coach, a teacher, anybody who stepped in against the bullying, they could have prevented eight or nine deaths and maybe more. It’s that easy.”
    (Josh Zeman, 41:02)

12. Ongoing Mysteries and What’s Next

• Recent case developments:

  • Discovery of Tanya Dykes (“Peaches”) and conflicting indictments raise new questions about links to Heuermann and the possibility of additional victims (42:11-44:25).

  • Additional episodes and updates will come as the case goes to trial; Zeman notes there is still much buried beneath political and historical layers.

  • Quote:
    “We’re going to have additional episodes. We’re also going to have new information coming out on my YouTube... there’s going to be so many more answers that come out during the trial.”
    (Josh Zeman, 44:34)

• Trial expectations and justice for the victims:

  • Hopes and fears about what justice and closure might look like, especially for families of the victims, and the risks of sensationalism overshadowing justice.
    (45:00-45:59)

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Noteworthy Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 04:03 | Josh Zeman | “And the question is, why? Like, why is it so weird? And why were there four active serial killers in 1993 operating in long Island?” | | 10:18 | Josh Zeman | “The moment Rex Uhman got caught is really the question. We had looked at so many potential suspects...” | | 14:10 | Josh Zeman | “I don’t think it was somebody kind of like overlooking something that got pushed in a file. I think there had to be... some sort of obfuscation...” | | 15:35 | Josh Zeman | “He was just such a... bad guy that he could abuse his power, you know... He didn’t have to kill.” | | 20:25 | Josh Zeman | “It’s the system is rigged in some respects.” | | 39:53 | Josh Zeman | “Nature is the gun, and nurture pulls the trigger... With serial murder, I think it’s like the mixture has to be there. All the elements have to be there, and then it just has to be mixed in just the right fashion.” | | 41:02 | Josh Zeman | “If there was a coach, a teacher, anybody who stepped in against the bullying, they could have prevented eight or nine deaths and maybe more. It’s that easy.” | | 44:34 | Josh Zeman | “We’re going to have additional episodes. We’re also going to have new information coming out on my YouTube... the trial is going to be the key.” |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:46 — Introduction to Zeman’s personal Long Island connections
• 06:36 — How Josh got into documentary film and crime storytelling
• 08:28 — Transition from documentaries to the podcast medium
• 10:18 — Revisiting old clues, near-misses with evidence on Rex Heuermann
• 12:53 — Systemic police failures and withheld evidence
• 15:15 — Corruption and James Burke’s destructive influence
• 19:06 — Endemic corruption in Suffolk County
• 21:41 — Patterns, sexual sadism and the profile of the killer
• 24:12 — Distinct possibility of multiple killers
• 27:02 — The “competition” theory: Bitroff and Heuermann overlap
• 28:02 — The Shannon Gilbert case as coincidence
• 29:40 — Zeman’s reaction to Rex Heuermann’s arrest
• 34:19 — New evidence: Jones Beach, trophy clothing finds
• 37:53 — Nature vs. nurture in Heuermann’s background
• 41:02 — Possibility and necessity of early intervention for at-risk youth
• 42:11 — New victim discoverers; case mushrooming beyond known facts
• 45:00 — Hopes and worries about the upcoming trial

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Closing Thoughts

This episode provides a candid, multi-dimensional account of both the investigative process and the emotional, psychological, and systemic factors driving the story of the Long Island Serial Killer case. Through Zeman’s and Freleng’s conversation, listeners glimpse not only the puzzle pieces missed or ignored, but the human cost of failed systems, the potential for change, and the ongoing quest for closure—and justice—in a case that still has many secrets buried under the sand.

Listeners are encouraged to follow the podcast, as Zeman confirms ongoing updates and new episodes as the case continues to unfold.

Transcript

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[Josh Zieman]

Hey, monster listeners, it's your host, Josh Zieman. So you're about to hear a conversation I had with investigative journalist Maggie Freeling. We talk about what led me to make monster and how revisiting old footage from another project about the Long island serial killer led me to. To my own jinx moment. We'll also delve into the island's unsettling history with serial murder and how suburbia and the pressures of conformity can create real life monsters. And of course, we'll discuss the upcoming trial, the alleged killer, Rex Uerman. Hope you enjoy our chat and thanks again for listening.

[Maggie Freeling]

Josh, I'm super excited to talk to you. I am from Long island, so naturally, you know, when this all became a thing, I was super interested in it, especially because I grew up with the Bissets. I went to school with them. So are you from New York?

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah. So I am from Staten island, but I was born in Long Island. I lived in Seacliffe, Long island, before moving to Staten island. And then my family moved back to Long island to the Port Jeff area. So always been connected with Long island in some way, shape or form. And as you know, being from Long Island, Long island is just this very unique community. Right. And the question is, why? Like, why is it so weird? And why were there four active serial killers in 1993 operating in long Island? And that's, you know, is it because it is the original bedroom community, Levittown? Is it because you have all these people going out to Long island who worked theoretically in New York? And so is that pressure to be. To conform and be bucolic, does that result in a lot of really aberrant behavior boiling underneath the surface?

[Maggie Freeling]

There was a book recently I was scanning about the Pacific Northwest and why so many serial killers come from out there. And they were talking about some sort of pollution. And Long island itself is quite polluted. I mean, we have a few Air Force bases, Grumman, Brookhaven Labs, power plants. I mean, so that could be. There could be something to that as well.

[Josh Zieman]

There could, you know, you're talking about Mergeland, which basically was saying that somehow lead poisoning may have like, contributed to this and, you know, interesting theory, but I really think a lot of this is about social conformity.

[Maggie Freeling]

Social. Okay.

[Josh Zieman]

I personally do. You know, granted, there's so many other amazing things about Long Island. I wrote a screenplay about Brookhaven Lab.

[Maggie Freeling]

Oh, wow.

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah. Just because it's cool. And then, of course, Stranger Things was based upon Long island and all those kind of conspiracy theories about what happened out at Montauk. And so it's really culturally rich in terms of what's going on. But. Yeah, why so many serial killers in Long Island? But look, at the same time, Long island is huge, Right? Not many people know that. Not many people know how big Long island is. We're really talking about a place that's the size of Phoenix or, you know, it's a big, big community and it's in the shadow of New York City.

[Maggie Freeling]

Is your background in media? Before we jump right into the case, you know, I want to get into your work a little bit. Cropsy. That was the first documentary I knew you for, but what were you doing before that? Tell me a bit about your journey.

[Josh Zieman]

Well, I went to school for journalism, but I quickly got working in the film industry and production and used to produce a lot of movies. I wanted to do my own horror film. And at the time, I couldn't get the money, but I had was like, walking in the woods in Staten island and like, this mental institution was right there, and everything was right there. And this was at the time that Blair Witch had come out. So I was like, okay, bet, you know, can I do something that's real that's just as scary as somebody trying to fake real? And I knew I had this Geraldo footage of this mental institution back in the 70s. I knew how disturbing that would be. So where they kind of did this fake footage to make it seem like a documentary. I've said, let's take a documentary and try and give it a horror feeling.

[Maggie Freeling]

It was great. It scared the shit out of me.

[Josh Zieman]

Me too.

[Maggie Freeling]

Were you always into, like, crime and kind of this morbid world?

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah, my dad was the like, like, kind of like the executive vice president of Mystery Writers of America, which is this kind of like whole bunch of mystery writers get together. A lot of old blue haired ladies. But then there were cool folks there as well. So as a kid, they were just like, I. My parents had a library of books and it was all mysteries. And I got to meet Stephen King when I was a kid. He told me how to make fake blood.

[Maggie Freeling]

That's so cool.

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah, like eight Years old, he had just made Creepshow. So I was always interested in, you know, as a kid who grew up with Stephen King and things like that, I was always into mysteries, but my dad was like a Sherlock Holmes dude. And I was like, okay, this is just when documentaries are starting to come into their own. And I was like, okay, I want to be a filmmaker so we could take that whole idea of crime and mystery and move it into the documentary world.

[Maggie Freeling]

So your transition to podcasting, was this your first podcast?

[Josh Zieman]

It's so interesting because as a filmmaker, you only get to tell so much of the story because of cutting. And so we did Sons of Sam on Netflix, and I want to tell a different part of the story that I didn't get to tell in the series. And so I said, hey, Netflix is a. Can we. Can I make a podcast? And they're like, well, that's a lot of your marketing budget. I was like, I don't care. You know, I really want to make this podcast. And so I did a podcast. I did it with Tenderfoot. I did it with Donald, and so I brought kind of him on because I wanted one of the best. And I had met Pain at the first crime con. And so I was making documentary doc series, and he was making podcasting, and we were kind of in two different orbits. But now I think those orbits have collided a little bit, and I think it's a lot harder to mix unique style of documentary series, especially, like, the stuff that I'm interested in, which is a little bit more morbid and a little bit more creepy and kind of the intersection between crime and urban legend and all that other stuff. So podcasting is just a natural extension of me just as a storyteller, to be honest with you.

[Maggie Freeling]

So let's go the podcast. I love how you guys kind of flash between the Killing season and the new information. And there's this one line where you say, like, we didn't even realize how close we got to him. And I'm thinking of this moment where you guys think you spoke to Huberman on the phone. Explain to me, when you guys were making the podcast, did you always think like, okay, we're gonna flashback to these moments in the Killing season. Just tell me about the process of making it and going back 10 years later.

[Josh Zieman]

The moment Rex Uhman got caught is really the question. We had looked at so many potential suspects, and part of our thing was going through and looking at those suspects that people were talking about online in the chat rooms, but the police weren't Addressing it, anyone from Bissett to a whole bunch of other people. And so that was really important. We kind of felt like maybe we could clear up a lot of the chatter. So when Rex was arrested and it was him, I was like, oh, my God. Then it came out that there was a piece of information in a file somewhere from Dave Schaller, one of the roommates of Amberlynn Costello, the last victim, that he had told police that there was an ogre who came to the house with a green avalanche. And so when we heard this clue, we were like, oh, my God. Dave told us about this. But by that time, Netflix had already done their deal with Liz Garbus. And I was making another film at the time, and I couldn't just jump off to do another one. So we knew we had this one at least one bit of information, but we knew we had other bits of information. For example, when we heard that he was a duck hunter, we're like, oh, my God. That was the first scene Rachel and I ever filmed where we're looking at. It was duck hunting.

[Maggie Freeling]

So crazy. So that was something in the doc that I kind of brushed off. I was like, whatever.

[Josh Zieman]

We did, too. It was like, duck hunter. You're nuts.

[Maggie Freeling]

Didn't even think about it. It was like a fleeting moment. And now that you guys in the podcast, you go back to that, and it's so like, oh, my God, it's right there.

[Josh Zieman]

Literally, it was one of the first scenes that we had ever talked about, because part of the original sizzle was this online community that was kind of coming out of this case because the people weren't. The police weren't talking about it. And this guy's like, duck hunter. Yeah, he's a duck hunter. And now, in retrospect, it all makes so much sense. Like, it's so easy to play Monday morning quarterback, but it makes complete sense. So there were all these kind of clues. And of course, when you go back and look through all the footage, there's all these really subtle moments, like the original police chief was right, but now we know that there's all this. There was all this corruption. And so it's just so interesting to kind of go back and look. And I think part of this podcast was realizing that the story's not over. There is a lot more kind of buried underneath the politics of what we're hearing.

[Maggie Freeling]

Elaborate on that. What do you. What do you mean by there's more. Do you mean there's more women to be found or go on.

[Josh Zieman]

With regards to Dave Schaller Right. And this is what you'll hear in the final episode, which is the police have characterized they're missing this clue as if it had been something written down in a file and shoved away. And it was kind of like lost and forgotten about. But when you go and you speak to Dave Schaller, Dave Schaller's like, no, it wasn't like some kind of one. One report that was filed away. Like, the police came and interviewed me five or six times, and five or six times I told them about the Chevy Avalanche. They came back with a board, like a lineup board of different vehicles and said, pick the vehicle out. And they. He picked the vehicle out. And then they had another witness who corroborated this Chevy Avalanche. So this wasn't one missed? No, they were onto this Chevy Avalanche. They also knew at the time, through numerous different sources, that the perpetrator theoretically lived in Massapequa. So they had the Chevy Avalanche. They had a Massapequa. Supposedly they did a search in this online database called Lawman, which they could have put the vehicle in. And for some reason, maybe because the vehicle is both. Is. Is somewhat of a hybrid vehicle, it's both a half pickup and a half suv, that they didn't get it, but they just would have done this littlest cursory look. So the point is, I don't think it was somebody kind of like overlooking something that got pushed in a file. I think there had to be. Had to be some sort of obfuscation where. And one of the theories that we put out is that information from the detectives was not being passed along to the higher ups. And that is because we now know at the time, Chief Burke, James Burke, who we now know was arrested for some other things, and the district at the attorney at the time were trying to take over the Suffolk County Police Department. So we believe that in trying to take over the Suffolk County Police Department, James Burke, who was friendly with all these detectives, was saying, hey, don't pass any information along. Just wait till I get there, and then we'll kind of go in and look at it. So we believe this clue was on purpose, not actioned. I'm not saying that they knew that this would have led to the killer. I'm just saying that they just generally like, hey, if you got good clue, just don't pass it. Anything up the ladder.

[Maggie Freeling]

It's so shocking to find that out. And, you know, like you guys mentioned in the podcast, the. The lack of information just allowed rumors to swell. And I was always a big advocate that Burke was somehow involved in all of this. And I really liked you talking about that in the podcast and kind of really being like, no, he wasn't. He just sucked in a whole other way.

[Josh Zieman]

You know, the thing about Burke, people are always like, oh, he's a kill. He's a killer. The tragic thing is he didn't have to. He didn't have to because he could just, he was just such a, you know, bad guy that he could abuse his power, you know, go have these parties with women, do whatever he wanted to do. He didn't have to kill him. That's the tragedy. He was that. He was that untouchable. What happened to her?

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Josh Zieman]

I was getting calls all the time that arrests were going to happen, but there were a number of different people who were supposed to be arrested. There was a cop, you know, who was supposed to be arrested and that didn't happen, but a cop, it looked like there was this other cop that they were going to arrest. You know, Long island is a messed up place. Suffolk county is a messed up place. There is so much corruption. I was telling people today, I was literally saying like, oh, you know, we did the killing season. We uncovered a bunch of corruption in Suffolk county, guys. And the guy was live. He's like, oh, you think? I was like, yeah, but in this case, like you had a district attorney go to jail.

[Maggie Freeling]

Yeah, that doesn't happen.

[Josh Zieman]

That doesn't happen. Like, you have to be wicked corrupt to go to jail. And at the end of the day, it's about money. You know, why did they want to take over the police department? Because Suffolk county is the second highest paid police department in the United States. You got guys pulling down 300,000 a year, you know, pension funds. And what a lot of people don't talk about, and we didn't even get into like next level, is you have a police department that literally is its own super pac. It's its own political party, and they control sway over everything that goes on in Suffolk County. So it's a recipe for corruption and disaster.

[Maggie Freeling]

How much of that still lingers today?

[Josh Zieman]

That's the question. I was speaking with Gus Garcia Roberts, who wrote Jimmy the King, which is a great book, and he's like, look, you'd think that they'd learn their lesson. James Burke and DA SPODA were so bad that they ended up taking down the whole police department. But you would think that they would learn, but they haven't. James Burke still gets a pension, but you're like, what? This guy was in jail. Still gets a pension? Oh, yeah, still gets a pension. Still has the full support of the Police Benevolent Association. So it still goes on until you break that power chain. You know, that stranglehold where the Police Benevolent association controls so much financial power. I don't think you're ever going to change it. It's just. It's too alluring. It's. It's. The system is rigged in some respects.

[Maggie Freeling]

Sure. And. And like we've mentioned, Suffolk county is, you know, outside of New York City. It's all kind of part of this big empire of power concentrated right there. It's pretty wild. So I guess I want to know, do you think Amber was the last? And how many more victims do you think there are?

[Josh Zieman]

That's a really interesting question. So speaking to experts like Mark Safrak, FBI profiler, he's. He just did a paper about sexual sadists, specifically who Rex is, allegedly is a sexual sadist. So this is different from some other types. And he. He has found that typically their libido, if you will, goes down once they go over 50. You know, it's not just the desire's not there. It's just it takes a lot of work to do all this. So was she the last victim? I believe so, but I would, again, I wouldn't be surprised if there were others. You also have to remember Shannon Gilbert had disappeared, you know, right around that time. So I think the police were definitely onto him or at least looking. And so I think he probably kind of went underground for that reason. But then there was. So people will say, yeah, but there was so long between when they caught him and. Yeah, you know, the question is whether he was kind of gearing back up again because he had gotten a burner phone. And that was one of the reasons why the police said that they arrested them when they didn't, even though they were, like, trailing him for so long. I also think it's hard to keep secrets in Long island, which would. Another reason. But who knows? But from. So we know, at least, when we look at a lot of serial murders, sexual status, they tend to stop or go down or the desire, you know, kind of lessens. Of course, there are always anomalies that people will talk about. Samuel Little, et cetera. But. So chances are. No, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I think the real question that everybody points to is whether Sandra Castilla is the first victim. And I think more of the consensus, if we're going to concentrate on, like, finding more victims, I think it's highly likely that there are far more victims.

[Maggie Freeling]

How many women do you think there are?

[Josh Zieman]

Logic says that he didn't start when he was. I think we're saying, like, Sandra Castillo would have been like 30. So I think logic would say that he started earlier than that. And so it's hard to say. It's really hard to say. When we have like a serial killer like this, people are like, oh, my God, he could be the most prolific ever. That's a hard number. That's hard to do considering how bad some individuals are. But there's definitely more.

[Maggie Freeling]

I was always so struck by the killing season mentioning there could be two different killers, you know, the trophy killer and the torso killer. I forget if they were the same or different. It's been so long. But mentioning there was two killers on Ocean Parkway potentially.

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah.

[Maggie Freeling]

Thinking about it now, you know, you guys mentioned in the podcast, did he potentially know bit Ralph? They were hunting in the same lodge or same area, Something like that. Can you talk to me a bit about bit Ralph and these questions of did, did they know each other?

[Josh Zieman]

Most of it stems from. If you look at the timeline, we know that Bitroff is connected to two women. His DNA was found on two women, Rita Tangretti and Colleen McLemire. So what happens? And this is in 93. What happens is theoretically, John Bitroff kills his first victim. 93, I think it's November. Two weeks later, Rex Fuerman kills his first victim, allegedly and theoretically, Sandra Castilla. So are we suggesting that somehow it's coincidence that this guy, John Bittruff kills a woman and then two weeks later, Rex Heuermann kills his first victim? Is there a reason for that? Was Rex trying to, in some respects, like, you know, kill somebody? Allegedly. And then that would somehow be blamed on Bit rough. Then we have the Maneville connection, which is Rex Heuermann starts to deposit two of his victims in the first, in 2000, Valerie Mack, and then secondly, Jessica Taylor in 2003. And he deposits them, their remains, their torsos in Manorville. Well, Bit Roth lives in Manorville. You know, he lives five miles away. So here's a second strange coincidence. Like why would Rex choose Manorville? We now know Rex is a hunter, and we knew that Bitroff was a hunter. And we now know that Rex Heuermann, he had instructed and gone to competitions at the Peconic Sportsman's Club, which is in Manorville. So maybe that's why he chose Manorville, because he was connected to hunting. Right. Duck hunter. That's why he chose Ocean Parkway, Manorville. Big hunting arrow. We also know that he's into marksmanship, so he was on the high school, like, marksman's team. So there's all this hunting motif. And so we just wonder, like, did these guys know each other from hunting? And I'm not saying, like, they're calling each other up on the phone, but I am saying, like, there. There could be a kind of competition or something like that. How do you account for Bitroth putting his first victim, and then two weeks later, Rex starting with his first victim?

[Maggie Freeling]

You know, when you say, like, some sort of competition, are you saying, like, they potentially knew of each other?

[Josh Zieman]

I'm not saying they knew of each other. I'm saying Rex does. Rex read in the paper that a sex worker has been killed and her body has been found in northern Long Island? And then he's like, well, you know, this would be a convenient way for me to kill somebody and dispose of a body. And so I'm going to take advantage of that. You know, we know Rex was doing all these forensic countermeasures not to be caught. So it's not out of the realm that he would. This would be a, quote, forensic countermeasure, you know, having another serial killer take the heat for one of his victims. And again, we know that the DA thought that to be true. So, you know, if it did, it worked. You know, Otherwise, is it coincidence? Well, you know, while I believe in coincidence and you have to believe in coincidence, if you don't believe that Shannon Gilbert was killed, you know, this coincidence in this case is crazy.

[Maggie Freeling]

You said that in a way that makes me think that you do believe Shannon was killed.

[Josh Zieman]

Look, I don't. I don't know what happened with Shannon Gilbert. I don't believe Joe Brewer and Michael Pack, the client and the driver, were connected because it would make very little logical sense for them to kind of, like, set themselves up like that. That would be, like, completely dumb. And also, when you listen to Joe Brewer's 911 calls. He's calling 911. He's going out to do missing persons reports. I don't think Brewer's that smart, to be honest with you, to put it all together. And I don't think everybody's like, well, why would Michael Pack the Driver leave. He's like, because he doesn't care. He deals with a lot of sex workers, driving them around all the time. And I'm sure, you know, he just doesn't care. That's why he left. He doesn't want to be there, you know, so. So everybody's like, why would he do. Like, he doesn't. One guy is not that smart, and the other guy doesn't care. But I don't think she's being chased in the woods. Do I think maybe somebody gave her a sedative? That could have easily happened. So, no, I don't believe that Shannon Gilbert was hunted down, chased and hunted down in the woods. And if you don't believe that, then the fact that she led to the other victims is a crazy coincidence. So if you have to believe that coincidence, then I guess Rex Heuerman with bit rough is another coincidence. But there would be so many coins at some point. There can't be this many coincidences.

[Maggie Freeling]

When he was arrested, were you. What were your first reactions to who he was? This architect? Like, who did.

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[Maggie Freeling]

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[Josh Zieman]

First of all, I was like, I don't believe it. Like, prove it. Prove it. Prove it. Because Suffolk county had done so many ridiculously incorrect things and other police departments. But then when I heard he lived in Massapequa, I was like, you know, and then when I heard he was an architect, I was like, huh. You know, so there were like. And then when I started to see. Like, when I knew that he really started frequent sex workers, I was like, you know, and so then when I learned that he worked in New York City, I was like. Like, there were. It started to all fall into place. Like, okay, you know, plus, it was a new guy in Suffolk headed. The D.A. tierney was obviously an adult versus the other guys who were criminals, so.

[Maggie Freeling]

Doing his job.

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah, he was doing his job versus, like, Spoda. You couldn't trust him on anything. Like, did he really believe that back in the day, that bit Roth had been connected with all these victims? I mean, we now know, for example, that when DA Spoda is having a fight with the police chief, Richard Dormer, who's since passed away, they're having a public battle about how many serial killers they're dealing with. A public battle. Nobody would ever have a public battle, because if you ever brought this guy to trial, the defense attorney would point back to this thing and be like, look, even the police chief and the DA Weren't in understanding. We now know that that public battle wasn't really about the number of serial killers. We now know that DA Spodo was trying to publicly embarrass Richard Dormer because he wanted Dormer to be kicked out so that James Burke could be put in. So Spoder doesn't even care about the integrity of the investigation. He's just Machiavelli wants power and is willing to do whatever. So knowing this, you can't trust anything that happened in the past. What happened to her?

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[Maggie Freeling]

For me, I think one of the most shocking parts where I was like, oh, wow, this really ties it ties it in because I work in wrongful conviction. So I see them get the wrong person all the time. That's what I do. So for the first time, I heard in your podcast that he had worked at Jones beach during the summers. And that kind of just sold me. It just made sense. That's when I was like, okay, this is. This is the guy. And then I had never heard all of those pieces of clothing were found at Jones Beach.

[Josh Zieman]

Well, basically they started like, redoing one of the beach houses at Jones beach and they found all these, like, clothes buried and like, blouses and pocketbooks and like, who would bury them and why? Like, and that could be a couple different things. Very. We all know that people scan, go through the beach while people are swimming or people are sleeping and they'll go in and they'll steal people's stuff, right? Happens all the time. You're lying there in a blanket, you're completely asleep, or you're out in the water and somebody's walking around stealing stuff. And then they go through everything and then rather than just throw it in the trash, they bury it. Why would they not just throw it in the trash? Because then they don't. Because then somebody's going to be looking, know that, that like, there's a thief around, so they'll bury it. So it could be that. However, the same week that this piece of information was put out that, that these workers had found all these buried clothes with like, ripped buttons and maybe a bloody glove that had been buried there for so long, we had been speaking with John Parisi, who was a, like, childhood friend of Rex Heuermann, and he told us that Rex Heuermann used to steal girls clothing out of their lockers as a kind of trophy thing, you know? You know, and then you're like, okay, that's really interesting. And like, there were ripped buttons on them and things like that, broken zippers. And then it started like, all kind of like, all right, is this connected? Because it would make sense, right? He's stealing clothes out of girls lockers. Girls that theoretically had, like, upset him because he would go and ask them on dates and they would like, laugh in his face because he was so big. And so he like, brings them to work and then buries Them, you know, creepy. But then when you learn, like, how he loved Jones beach and how he knew Jones beach and. And Ocean Parkway, and he went hunting on Ocean Parkway. Like, obviously. Obviously, the beach, Jones beach and Ocean Parkway is a thing, a real thing for him. He's working there as a kid when his hormones are raging, you know, that's also important. He's driving around on SUV at night, and then he's going hunting there with. I believe he went hunting there with his father. And that's one of the reasons why there's. Why there's, you know, the belt. The initials on the belt is not a coincidence. You know, it's an homage. So, you know, and we've got pictures of him standing in the water around those areas in. In. In Gilgo beach, hunting. So it's all about, like, feeling your power and. And sexual scripts.

[Maggie Freeling]

So in Monster, you go into a bit of Rex's childhood and his background, and there's always this question of nature ver. Nurture. When you encounter these kinds of killers. Do you have an opinion on with Rex, if that was nature nurture, what did you find when you explored his childhood?

[Josh Zieman]

Well, I think this is one of the really interesting things, because I couldn't find a lot of information about Rex, about his personal life. You know, people had concentrated on the fact that he's so big and he looks like a monster. But when you go in and you really look at it, it's. That's where it really becomes interesting. You learn how Rex was bullied. He wasn't bullied, interestingly enough, because he was a wimp, a small guy. He was bullied because he was so big and ogre. Ish. And so the bullying, we see that with another Long island serial killer, Joel Rifkin, also bullied. I also found out. I was like, oh, he bullied by other boys. And John Parisi's like, uh, the boys. That was, like, fighting the girls. It was the girls who were, like, especially cruel. And I was like, oh, snap. Like, suddenly the wheels start to turn. You're like, okay, so he's got serious anger issues. And then when we got into it, and I learned. I didn't even know about this. Like, I learned, for example, you speak to the psychological person Joanie Johnson, and she's like, look, it's like, people think it's connected to bdsm. And what people get off on, on BDSM is another partner being compliant. Like, they love that. The partner loves that pain. And I was like, oh, yeah, of course. What a Sexual sadist gets off on is the other partner saying, no, stop, please don't. And I was like, okay, that's. That's kind of sick and. And nuts. I could see it, you know, but that's nuts. And so you learn about that. And that's connected to the bullying. And these fantasies, these revenge fantasies are happening right at the point at which puberty is setting in. So these revenge fantasies somehow get mixed in with sex. And then you're like, okay, I get it. And then. And then at the same time, they get mixed in with, like. You know, he's obviously got angers. Anger issues against women. But then the fact that he goes to sex workers so much, it's like a way for him to use anger issues against women who are theoretically selling their bodies. So then he's like, you whore. You know that. That type of thing. And so you. It's like, oh, my God, this is so complicated. But then you also look, and he had a father who was like a drunk, who beat him. The father dies early at 12 years old. And you're like, oh, my God, it's all coming together. It's all so interesting. So. But then he also has some. Some obviously chemical imbalances, you know, in terms of narcissism and things like that. So you learn. And there's a statement that I was. Was very interesting. It's like nature is the gun, and nurture pulls the trigger. Like, everything can be there. But it's a mix, right? It's a mixture. It's a specific mixture. And too much of this and it. It tastes bad and too little, and it doesn't taste enough. So with serial murder, I think it's like the mixture has to be there. All the elements have to be there, and then it just has to be mixed in just the right fashion with just the right amount of in, and then you get a Rex Huhman.

[Maggie Freeling]

You know, this is the big question. Do you think it's possible to identify these things early and prevent a Rex Huberman?

[Josh Zieman]

Absolutely. I talked to. I talked to Joni about that, and people are like, why. Why. Why even talk about Rex this way? And it's like, look, the signs were all there. The red flags were all there. He's a big ogreish kid who's sitting in the back of the room not talking, and he's getting bullied. Okay, Whose father had died early. Like, if there was a coach, a teacher, anybody who stepped in against the bullying, they could have prevented eight or nine deaths and maybe more. It's that easy. It's like we don't have to have some like, significant marker where it's like pre crime, you know, Minority Report, like, like it doesn't need to go that. It's like find the kid who's being bullied and talk to the kid who's being bullied and find some way to get that kid some help. Find the kid whose dad has died. You know, like, it's so easy, it's tragic.

[Maggie Freeling]

What are the questions that you have outstanding? What is next? Is there going to be a follow up? I know you didn't think anything was really going to happen after Killing Season, and here we are. So what's next? What are your questions?

[Josh Zieman]

I mean, two days ago, the Nassau County Police Department put an indictment in for a woman named Tanya Dykes. So Tanya is Peaches. And so Peaches Tanya, her remains have been found. In 1997, her torso had been found in Hempstead park, found in an in glue container. We found out later that she was connected to remains also found deposited on Gilgo beach on Jones beach. Actually. She was originally Jane Doe number three. Now she had a child who was with her, and that toddler was also found on Ocean Parkway. So we, everybody believed that this was allegedly Rex because the body was found on Ocean Parkway, because it was a torso, because it was happening around the same time as some other victims had been dismembered. So we all always believed it was Rex Heuerman. And now suddenly the Nassau County Police Department have put an indictment out for her husband saying it's him. Now I have reason to believe that it's not him based upon where and how the bodies were found on Ocean Parkway in Jones Beach. Again, it would have to be an unbelievable coincidence for this guy to pick this one area. Basically, in 97, he deposits the remains of Tanya two miles from Karen Vergata, who was theoretically one of Rex's victims, picked up in 96. So that that would be a coincidence. And then burying the toddler tragically further away, the toddler would have been placed there in 97. But then allegedly, if we're to believe what Nassau county is saying, Rex Heuerman comes in and puts the remains of Valerie Mack only 211ft away in 2000. So it, we're not just talking about like one coincidence of Jane Doe number three slash Tanya's remains being near Karen Vergata, but we're talking about the remains of this other individual, the, the toddler being next to Valerie Mac. So again, it doesn't really make Sense. And of course, anything could be true, but just doesn't make sense. So we're finding out new things every day.

[Maggie Freeling]

It has been so great speaking with you, Josh. Is there anything else that you want to talk about or tease in the podcast?

[Josh Zieman]

There's new stuff happening every day. We're taking this stuff. We're going to have additional episodes. We're also going to have new information coming out on my YouTube, which is sinister with Josh Zieman, where you can get that pieces of information. But I look forward to, like, the trial. I mean, it's really going to be about the trial. There's going to be so many more answers that come out during the trial. And Monster, this series is going to continue with that trial.

[Maggie Freeling]

Amazing. I'm so excited. Do you expect him to take any kind of plea deal?

[Josh Zieman]

Ooh, that's the million dollar question. You gotta think about the families. I want answers too, but I don't want to hear, and I'm sure the families don't want to hear how their loved one was tortured and brutalized and not just like regular torture. Like we're talking like sick, sick stuff. So as much as I want answers, the one thing I don't want is what happened like in the Karen Reed case. That's a travesty of justice. You know, we're all here to make sure that the victims get their names back, to make sure that the case is properly handled and that, you know, somebody's gotta be watching the detectives, especially in Suffolk county, and that justice gets served. Those are the goals. It's not about likes and it's not about hot takes and it's not about, you know, all the things that happen in Karen Reed. So I'm, I get concerned. This was never a thing that happened originally in True Crime. So we got to keep our eyes on the prize here.

[Maggie Freeling]

Absolutely. All right, Josh, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

[Josh Zieman]

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