Why Did He Plead?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Why Did He Plead?" – Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer
Episode Date: June 1, 2026 | Hosted by Josh Zieman | Featuring Dr. Joni Johnston & Mark Safrak

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the motives and psychological underpinnings behind Rex Heuermann’s sudden guilty plea to the murders of eight women attributed to the Long Island Serial Killer. Host Josh Zieman, together with forensic psychologist Dr. Joni Johnston and former FBI profiler Mark Safrak, delves into the nature of Heuermann’s crimes, what may have led him to admit guilt, and the elusive question of whether this plea will finally reveal the truth—or simply allow Heuermann to retain control over his secrets.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Surprising Guilty Plea ([03:10])

• Host’s Framing:

  • Josh Zieman opens by asking: “Why did Rex Heuermann suddenly plead guilty...admitting that he was the infamous Long Island serial killer?” ([03:10])
  • Multiple possible motives are explored: overwhelming evidence, protecting his family from the details, or a deeper need to control the narrative about himself.

• Insight:

  • The episode’s core: understanding the duality (family man vs. killer) and whether Heuermann’s plea reveals or conceals his true self.

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2. The Mask Slips: Smirks, Control & Persona ([06:18])

• On His Courtroom Demeanor:

  • Dr. Joni Johnston comments on Heuermann’s smirking in court, interpreting it as bravado and a desperate attempt to maintain control even when pleading guilty.
    • Quote:
      “I thought it was a little bit of bravado, I think a little bit of defiance in that moment...somehow I have some control. I'm the one making the decision to give this plea.” (Dr. Joni Johnston, [06:18])

• Control as a Theme:

  • The discussion focuses on Heuermann’s lifelong tendency to compartmentalize and manipulate: the calculated separation between his familial and criminal selves.

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3. The Making of a Sexual Sadist ([08:09])

• Psychological Profile:

  • Dr. Johnston discusses the unique psychological recipe that could create a man like Heuermann:

    • No blank slate in childhood—genetic temperament, controlling and critical parent(s), humiliation, and bullying.

    • Fusion of violence and sexuality during adolescence, often catalyzed by exposure to violent pornography (though she clarifies porn alone does not cause such behavior).

    • Quote:
      “...for sexually sadistic serial killers, there is this fusion of violence and sex.” (Dr. Joni Johnston, [10:41])

• Preventing Future Crimes:

  • Importance of understanding these pathways not to excuse, but to prevent future offenders.

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4. Family, Reputation, and Secrets ([13:04])

• Motivations for Pleading:
  • Dr. Johnston posits that protecting his secret, not just his family, may have been paramount:

    • Heuermann may guard “the most precious things to him”—his horrific acts—from public judgment.

    • Some concern for his daughter, Victoria, is noted, but the desire to keep his hidden world private is stronger.

    • Quote:
      “I think that the things that Rex Heuermann did, the horrible things that he did, I think are in some respects some of the most precious things to him...he would never want that to be disclosed.” (Dr. Joni Johnston, [14:09])

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5. Is He Truly a Narcissist? ([16:50])

• Distinct from Other Serial Killers:
  • Unlike others (e.g., BTK), Heuermann isn’t outwardly narcissistic.
    • “He's not the narcissist in the same BTK narcissist way. Right. It's different...He’s more sadistic in that way. He's more like, I want to keep my. It's private. It's mine, and I don't want you to look at it.” (Dr. Joni Johnston, [16:59])

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6. On Empathy, Love, and Compartmentalization ([17:30])

• Capacity for Attachment:
  • Heuermann’s ability to maintain two lives—loving father/husband and sadistic killer—explained through extreme compartmentalization.
  • Dr. Johnston draws a parallel with police coping mechanisms but clarifies the scale and morality are vastly different.

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7. Profiler’s Perspective: Mark Safrak ([24:01])

• Why Plead?

  • Safrak isn’t surprised by the guilty plea, citing overwhelming evidence (DNA, cell records, laptop data, vehicle ID).
    • “I think he's a pretty smart guy. He recognized that even if you go through a trial, one going through the trial, you lose a lot of control on where it ends up.” (Mark Safrak, [24:01])

• On Serial Offenders and Guilty Pleas:

  • Some seek notoriety at trial; Heuermann differs, likely motivated by protecting his privacy and family.

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8. Control as Central to Both Crime and Confession ([28:58])

• Control Defined:

  • Safrak elaborates: Control isn’t just “mustache-twirling villainy” but about managing the narrative and circumstances, including who learns what and how about his crimes.

    • Quote:
      “Control is important to individuals like this because parts of their life they don't have any control over once they're in custody...So they want control over some parts of their life, and this is a way of exerting control.” (Mark Safrak, [29:12])

• Negotiation in Plea Deals:

  • Possible that the FBI interview and plea negotiations included considerations about prison conditions—again, efforts to maintain some power.
  • “So all of this for me are various Aspects of trying to control the narrative of the story and also control the dynamics of the events that are unfolding.” (Mark Safrak, [35:50])

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9. On Families, Trials, and Answers ([37:53])

• Does Pleading Rob Us of the Truth?
  • Safrak doubts a trial would have revealed more—Heuermann likely wouldn't testify.
  • The plea may also have spared families more trauma.
    • “I just don't think that family would get the Answers...It's critically important to take what family members want...into your deliberations as to how you're going to proceed with a case like this.” (Mark Safrak, [39:57])

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10. Will He Ever Offer a Real Confession or Remorse? ([40:14])

• Possibility of Empathy and Contrition:
  • Psychopathy is on a spectrum; such offenders may have some ability for empathy, but genuine remorse is unlikely.
    • “Psychopathy is on a scale. So can he have some modicum of empathy, perhaps? Can he express some level of remorse? Not likely.” (Mark Safrak, [40:23])

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Joni Johnston on the motivation for the plea:
  “He knows he's not. He knows how horrific it is, and he knows how other people react to that, but that's secondary. I do believe that. I think it's much more about him reliving that and not wanting that tainted by other people knowing.” ([14:09])

• Mark Safrak on control and plea deals:
  “There may have been housing situation agreements, privilege agreements...But that would also be part of the control, right? Getting what you're looking for in exchange for giving up something else.” ([30:12])

• Josh Zieman on searching for the truth:
  “Not to accept the only version of events that he wants us to hear. Because ever since that guilty plea, we've been pulling on the threads of his tightly woven narrative, watching it slowly unravel as a darker picture emerges. One of other victims in other cities and a full reckoning of his crimes at Rex Heuermann never intended the world to see.” ([41:49])

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Timestamps by Segment

| Time | Topic/Insight | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | [03:10] | Introduction of Heuermann’s plea and its possible motives | | [06:18] | Dr. Johnston’s analysis of smirking and control in courtroom | | [08:09] | Profile: How childhood trauma and fantasy shape sexual sadists | | [13:04] | Why the plea: Protecting secrets vs. protecting family | | [16:50] | Narcissism vs. sadistic control in Heuermann’s case | | [17:30] | Discussion of love and compartmentalization | | [24:01] | Mark Safrak: Forensic evidence and the psychology of pleading guilty | | [28:58] | The theme of control, both criminal and interpersonal | | [35:50] | Negotiations, privileges, and control in plea deals | | [37:53] | Whether trials reveal more truth or just more trauma | | [40:14] | On possible contrition and psychopathy spectrum | | [41:49] | Closing summary: The pursuit of the full truth beyond the narrative Heuermann wants |

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Memorable Moments

• Analysis of the "planning document" as a microcosm of Heuermann's need to control every detail ([36:59])
• Discussion of his correspondence with another killer (Keith Jesperson) and fixation on prison conditions ([35:31])
• Repeated reminders from both experts that outward contradictions—a loving family man and predator—can coexist due to extreme compartmentalization

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, psychological exploration of the Long Island Serial Killer’s guilty plea, revealing that for someone like Rex Heuermann, the decision isn’t just legal—it’s deeply psychological. Control, secrecy, and self-image interplay at every level, from crime to confession, blurring the lines between public revelation and private fantasy. The episode leaves open-ended questions about whether more victims and truths will emerge, and whether the real story is the one the world is finally allowed to hear.

For deeper analysis and future breakdowns, stay tuned to Monster: Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer.

Transcript

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[Josh Zieman]

So why did Rex Horman suddenly plead guilty to the murders of eight women, admitting that he was the infamous Long island serial killer? Well, the truth is, there may not be just one answer. Maybe it was the overwhelming evidence. Maybe it was about protecting his family from hearing the horrifying details of what he'd done. Or maybe, like so much in this case, it all came back to control. Controlling the narrative, as in Rex controlling what the world would learn about him. And maybe most importantly, what it wouldn't. After discussions with your lawyer, would you

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

feel it's in your best interest to plead guilty rather than go to trial?

[Mark Safrak]

Yes, your honor.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Are you satisfied?

[Josh Zieman]

Because after following this case for years, one thing has become crystal clear. Rex is a master manipulator, a kind of! Who lived two completely different lives. There was Rex, the husband, the suburban father, the architect commuting every day into Manhattan. And then there was the other side, the dark side, the side who hunted women for decades, who hid behind burner phones, violent pornography, and a computer as he sketched out his blueprint for murder. Yet despite all this, we still don't fully understand who Rex is or why he did what he did. Which brings us back to two experts you heard from in previous Dr. Joni Johnston, a clinical psychologist who has spent years studying violent offenders like Rex, and Mark Safrak, a former FBI profiler and member of the bureau's elite behavioral analysis unit. But this time, the conversations are different, because now Rex has pled guilty. Do you understand that by pleading guilty to a charge that is the same as you had gone to trial and been found guilty of that charge?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yes, you, Honor. Do you understand that by pleading guilty

[Josh Zieman]

and with that admission, we can dive deeper into Rex's Persona than ever before, Whether that's Rex, the predator who spent decades hiding in plain sight, or Rex, the man who claims to love and care for his family, the question is, can these two sides of Rex Shurman actually coexist? And while there are those who say the hunt for Lisk is over, for others like myself, who want more than just headlines, who aren't satisfied with the official story, and who are willing to dive deeper into the darkness. This is where the real investigation begins. I'm Josh Zieman, and this is monster hunting. The Long island serial killer. A lot of people have been talking about him smirking.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I did say the kind of smirking. I thought it was a little bit of bravado, I think a little bit of defiance in that moment. You know, kind of like, I'm not going to act like I'm kind of giving in here. Like somehow I have some control. I'm the one making the decision to give this plea. So, I mean, that was more an attempt to kind of show this control that he seemed to desperately have to have all the time.

[Josh Zieman]

That was Dr. Joni Johnston, a clinical and forensic psychologist who's been following this case since Rex's arrest. We spoke to Joni in an episode about what creates a sexual sadist. But now that Rex has changed his plea, we knew we had to go back. Because watching Rex in that courtroom, the smirks, the strange flashes of bravado, even moments that sounded strangely sincere, it all felt like this carefully constructed mask was now slipping. The only question was, what version of Rex Heuermann lay underneath? It's one of the biggest serial murder cases in decades. A killer who we've looked at, thought about, examined for years. But how much do we really know about Rex Uhrman? We're going to talk to Dr. Joni Johnson, who is going to basically give us a further look into Rex Uhrmann. Now, what creates a guy like Rex Uhman? What creates a sexual sadist? What creates somebody who takes such pleasure in terrifying and hurting others? Can you kind of jump in and just tell us what creates a man like Rex Heuermann?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think we've gotten some clues about what creates a sexually sadistic serial killer. But there's a lot of things that we still don't know. But I think, you know, when we look at somebody like Rex Huberman, we look at this combination, and it's always. Unfortunately for us as researchers, it's always a unique combination of factors, factors that lead somebody to wind up not only fantasizing about hurting other people, but actually carrying that out. And it oftentimes starts, you know, in childhood. You know, we all bring not just our childhood experiences, but we also bring our genetic makeup with us. So nobody's born. There's no such thing as a blank slate, right. That we. I know I was taught that many, many years ago that we're kind of blank slates. Well, we're not. We have certain temperaments and. And then we have these life experiences. And for people who feel humiliated, often in their come from family is where in particular one parent is fairly controlling and the other parent is critical. You know, we start seeing a lot of anger build up. And then in adolescence. So you tend to have this background or this kind of. Yeah, this kind of pond, if you will, a childhood pond that's filled with pain. And it's oftentimes from a lot of different sources. There could be bullying at school, there could be a lot of humiliating experiences in terms of people making fun of him. And then he goes home and he feels like he's being controlled and criticized at the same time. He can kind of never measure up. And oftentimes when children are younger, they'll try to do things to please other people. That's how they'll cope with that. They'll avoid conflict, they'll try to be the good kid and then realize pretty quickly that doesn't really work, just results for them, at least in their mind as more victimization or at the very least nothing gets any better. And so this anger starts building up. But there's also this dependency oftentimes on their parents because they're not being accepted by peers. So we don't see this transition that you tend to see with kids, which is they start relying more on their peers as opposed to their parents, so the parents to continue to be very important to them. And then adolescence, of course, which is a critical time for everybody in development. You have all these hormones flying around and you have a lot of other things going on. We know that a certain percentage of adolescents engage in what we call kind of like adolescent limited criminal behavior. But then there's a subset of those who are going to go on and become life course persistent. And it's kind of figure out what are those. And oftentimes what happens is you'll have these experiences, ongoing bullying. At some point. Point though, for sexually sadistic serial killers, there is this fusion of violence and sex.

[Josh Zieman]

That's the craziest part of the whole thing. I think for me it is.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

It is because you kind of go, how do those two kind of get fused? Sometimes the kid is angry. Sometimes the kid is angry and he's looking at porn as a way to cope with his feelings. He may come across some violent porn that's stimulating to him. Now, I want to make it clear that violent porn does not create somebody like Rex Heuerman, but it can certainly feed the engine. So if this anger is there, all these hormones are flying around, this sexual energy is becoming fused with violence, then seeking that out, which is what you see people doing, they start seeking kids, they'll start seeking this stuff out. It does become this kind of like the hamster on the wheel. You know, they're driving that machine, and it can become bigger and bigger. And so I think for somebody like Rex Heuermann, who is a bright. He was a bright man. He was somebody who was ambitious, he was successful professionally, you have this almost like a dichotomy developing where you have this person who, on the one hand, wants to be seen as successful, and he's maybe somewhat arrogant to other people, but kind of somewhat hard to get along with. But underneath, he might be a decent father, a decent, you know, a decent husband. But underneath, all that stuff that's been going on for years and have been fed by all the adolescent fantasies that he's had begins to kind of take hold, and he has to figure out a way to deal with that. You know, we'd like to think that anybody who developed those fantasies would get help, but of course, that is not the case for sexually motivated serial killers. They put at some point, and oftentimes it's some trigger in their life. It can be a divorce. It can be the birth of a child. There's some trigger that shifts that fantasy into planning and then into action.

[Josh Zieman]

It's interesting because everybody who's sitting here saying, you know, we're kind of humanizing a killer, number one. Yes, we are humanizing a killer, because we want to understand, and the only way we can stop this is to understand from speaking about this person as a human being. We don't feel sympathy for what they did, you know, but we are trying to understand.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I want to prevent the next Rex human. We all do. We want to prevent that. And in order to do that, we've got to figure out how this person wound up where he was or what he did.

[Josh Zieman]

So that's what creates this individual. Has your perception of him changed?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

No, I don't think it has. I don't think it has. I mean, one thing I did think it was interesting, the whole plea deal we had briefly talked about. I mean, I think he's realized at this point that his family does believe he did this. Certainly his daughter believes that he is guilty, I think. And I think that changes everything for him. And so now he has other things to kind of protect, not his reputation with his family.

[Josh Zieman]

You said it. And I Wonder you've articulated something that I maybe wanted to bring up. It's not the wife, it's the daughter, right? Do you think?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

So in terms of what he's protecting,

[Josh Zieman]

in terms of the thing that's important to him, it's less the wife, right?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah, I think it has less the wife and the daughter, although I think he would want to maintain as much status as he could have with his wife and his daughter.

[Josh Zieman]

Yes, I agree, but I'm like, the thing.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

But, yes, I definitely think it would be more his children and in particular, his daughter.

[Josh Zieman]

So why do you think he pled?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think that the things that Rex Heuermann did, the horrible things that he did, I think are in some respects some of the most precious things to him. I think that. That he would never want that to be disclosed. I mean, he knows he's not. He knows how horrific it is, and he knows how other people react to that, but that's secondary. I do believe that. I think it's much more about him reliving that and not wanting that tainted by other people knowing, you know, or judging. Or judging. Exactly.

[Josh Zieman]

What about protecting his self from people hearing about his Google searches, maybe not the machismo Persona that he had put out and gun clubs and that is. Do you think that has a part of it as well?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I do. I definitely do. I mean, I think there's a. You know, I think it's all rolled in. In terms of this being a private thing for him, his secret world, a part of himself that he kept hidden from everybody except for his victims, pretty much. And I think all of that kind of ties together in terms of these are parts of him that he doesn't want other people to know about and to be judging him for and talking about. So I definitely think that's part of it as well. I don't think he wants his daughter necessarily to hear a bunch of things, you know, to have his planning document, you know, maybe broadcast to the world or those horrific things that she knows about. But it's different to know about it, probably, than to see it. Yeah.

[Josh Zieman]

So it's not like he wants to protect his family or does he, like. What I'm trying to figure out is, is his feelings transactional or legitimate?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think it is primarily about himself. It's primarily about him avoiding other people, judging him and also sharing that. I mean, I think that's a lot of it, is that I don't want to share this. I don't. I don't want to. I don't Want you to know about this. This is. Yes, in a judgmental way, but in a more of. And also in a special kind of a way. In a twisted, special kind of a way. So I think that is a primary thing for him. Does that mean that he doesn't care about his daughter Victoria and her hearing all about this? That there isn't a part of him that says, and. And this would be, you know, not a good thing for. Yeah, you know, it's not. I don't think it's an either or kind of thing. Right. Just like I was telling you, I really do believe if Victoria was going to visit him or calling him and saying, I know you didn't do this, Dad. I know you would never do this. I would never believe this about you. I've known. You know, I don't think he would have. I would. He would have pleaded.

[Josh Zieman]

I think everybody's like, oh, he's such a narcissist. But actually, I think that's the wrong way to look at it. Right. Because he's not the narcissist in the same BTK narcissist way. Right. It's different.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yeah, it is different. I think. I mean, I think it's. I think he's arrogant. I think there's arrogance about him. There's no question about that. I mean, people have talked about him being very arrogant, kind of condescending, but narcissist in the terms of, look at me, look at me, look at. No, I don't think that is him. He's more sadistic in that way. He's more like, I want to keep my. It's private. It's mine, and I don't want you to look at it.

[Josh Zieman]

Yeah, yeah. Like, nobody needs to know what I did to these women. Right. You know, don't destroy my fantasy. Right. Yeah.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Right.

[Josh Zieman]

Do you think he loves his wife and his child?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

I think, yeah, I do.

[Josh Zieman]

I do, too. Because he creates Personas, you know, whether. Whether intentional or not. Right. You know, so there's gotta be this one side of him that's still. However much of a, quote. Monster he is, he's still loves them. Right?

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Yes, I think he does. I mean, I think he's attached to his children. I think he cares about his wife, and he's a sexually motivated, sadistic serial killer. I mean, I think all those are true.

[Josh Zieman]

Right.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

And it's so hard to wrap. I mean, it's so hard to wrap your head around that. For any of us to wrap our heads around that, because it. It's like, how can one person be all of those things? And I feel like, you know, it's almost like in a very, very exaggerated way. It's like, okay, I have police officers will tell me, you know, I go, I've been at this crime scene, I've seen a three year old child who's been murdered, you know, by a parent. And then I've got to walk in the door and there's my three year old child running up and going, daddy, daddy, daddy. And what do I have to do? What? Pull out the drawer, put that pain that I saw and that horror and trauma that I experienced witnessing this child who's been brutally murdered. And they get on the floor and play, you know, bunnies or Legos or whatever. I've got to find a place to tuck that out. And how do I, how do I do that? Well, this is a different thing in the sense that we're not talking about, you know, murder versus being a good husband or a good, you know, or a good father. But that compartmentalization I think is, is definitely there. And I think both of those can be true.

[Josh Zieman]

Dr. Joni Johnson, thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

[Dr. Joni Johnston]

Same here.

[Josh Zieman]

Rex Hurman spent most of his life hiding his true self from his family, his co workers, and everyone around him. A kind of compartmentalizing, that fragmenting of the self would break most people, but not someone like Rex Heuermann. Not a sexual sadist, that very rare and dangerous type of offender. In truth, it takes a unique kind of psychopath, not just to move seamlessly between Personas, but to maintain that deception for over 30 years, if not longer. And to understand this rare breed of human being, you need training. You need someone who has spent a lifetime probing, peeling back the protective layers of a deviant mind. Someone like former FBI criminal profiler Mark Safrak.

[Mark Safrak]

Foreign.

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[Josh Zieman]

Mark Safrak has spent 23 years with the FBI and over half that time as a criminal profiler, establishing himself as an expert in the understanding of violent criminal behavior. Which makes him uniquely suited to discuss one of the most fascinating aspects of Rex Yurman's guilty plea, his agreement to be interviewed by the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. Mr. Taney has indicated in exchange for the pleas that we're going to enter into this morning, my client is also obligated to completely truthfully cooperate with the

[Gronk]

Federal Bureau of Investigations Behavioral Analysis Unit

[Mark Safrak]

as part of what we've just discussed.

[Josh Zieman]

Which means for the first time, investigators will get direct access to Rex's thinking. Or so we assume. For years, Mark Safrak was part of that very same process as he sat across from offenders studying not just the crimes they committed, but the psychology behind them, what drove them, how they justified what they'd done, and in some cases, why they finally chose to confess. So when Rex Heuermann suddenly changed his plea, there were few people More qualified to help us understand why, here's Mark Safrak. I'm thankful that you came on the show today. I truly appreciate it. Speaking of which, I mean, it is a very interesting and fascinating turn of events, the fact that Rex Hman pled. When you heard that, what crossed your mind?

[Mark Safrak]

I wasn't completely surprised by him pleading. I think there were a number of reasons that come to mind. I think primarily so I think you have to understand that the forensic evidence was overwhelming in this case, not only in cell phone records, materials obtained from his laptop, DNA, the identification of his vehicle. So I think he's a pretty smart guy. He recognized that even if you go through a trial, one going through the trial, you lose a lot of control on where it ends up. But also, guys like this are pretty astute about what it is. The prosecution has their case. And I think just from the strength side of the. Of that case, I don't think that he wanted to put his family through that kind of ordeal.

[Josh Zieman]

Do you see a lot of serial murders in your history of dealing with these individuals? Do you see a lot of them changing their plea?

[Mark Safrak]

I guess. Well, you know, it depends, right? It just depends. Dennis Raider pled. Again, I think, you know, a lot of evidence, if you go back further in time, less individuals probably have pled. But also, you know, it depends on the personality of the individual. Sometimes they're just looking for a forum to, you know, be seen by other people. It's that sort of being adored by individuals. You know, look at Luigi Mangione, right? You've got people out there that are in love with him, following him. So there's a sense of notoriety for some of these offenders. Bundy was kind of that way where the trial allows them to take control in their own way and to be seen to sort of put themselves out in a different light. I think Heuerman was different. I think the aspect of, you know, his family was important to him, which is why I think we see that these homicides happen during times when his family is. Is not there, unlike other individuals, like. Like Robert Yates, the Spokane serial killer. Right. So he's engaging in those activities when his family's there. He's just going out hunting, just on a night. But the family is there, the children are there. So that was different. I think for Heuerman, he was one, I think, trying to protect himself, obviously, minimize any individuals, whether family members or others, identifying or being able to sort of figure out what was going on. But also, I think there's this protective aspect to his actions. You ask yourselves, can a psychopath have empathy? You know, people ask, well, do you think he did this, that he pled because his, you know, because of his family, concern for his family. Can a guy like this be concerned about his family? Absolutely right. It's a continuum. There are aspects of their life that, you know, they're concerned about even though they're killing a number of women. He can compartmentalize and look at his family as something that is worth protecting. And I think probably, you know, recognizing the strength of the prosecution's case and the strength of the evidence, we're not talking just about witness testimony. We're talking about identifying forensic evidence, DNA evidence, cell phone evidence, computer evidence, along with other identification pieces. I think that he just understood that the outcome was not going to be in his favor, that he would be convicted. So perhaps, you know, control is an issue for psychopaths wanting to be in control. So I think that is a way to take some level of control. Because once you go to trial, then, you know, you've. You've lost control in certain areas and certainly the ability to protect your family, you don't have that control anymore.

[Josh Zieman]

It's interesting you say the word control, people, you know, is it the twirling, mustache control, or is it something different trying to explain to people what that is? Even I don't know exactly what we really mean?

[Mark Safrak]

Well, I think he's very interested in controlling the narrative of what is being released and what the story is, which I think is. Is also why he agreed to meet with FBI criminal profilers. Because you can control the narrative, right, about what information gets released, how it's presented to other individuals. You control the storyline. And control is important to individuals like this because parts of their life they don't have any control over once they're in custody. There. There are things that they simply don't have control over. So they want control over some parts of their life, and this is a way of exerting control.

[Josh Zieman]

Is that control so necessary because of the kind of upbringing, like the bullying, for example, where they had no control over their situation?

[Mark Safrak]

Well, I think especially with serial offenders, whether you're talking about serial rapists or serial killers, real offenders, control is an important aspect of their. It's an important aspect of the crimes. Not only control of the victims, but control of themselves, which is what you don't have with some rather disorganized offenders or serial offenders who have mental health disorders like schizophrenia. They don't have that level of control. And guys like Heuerman and Raider and Yates and others. Control is important. The ability to control their own emotions while they're engaged in the homicide, and also their ability to control the situation and control the victims and the environment. So control is important. It's part of what makes their crimes and part of what makes them successful is that ability to control, dominating. Control the situation, the victim, the emotions. So while they see the emotions of the victim spilling out all over the place, they look at themselves and pride themselves on that ability to control their own emotions. So control, it's exerted in lots of different ways for these offenders. Some things he doesn't have control over, but what he. What he thinks he has control over. And again, there may have been, and I don't know that we're aware of this, but there may have been some negotiations that went along with, you know, the plea deal, the agreement to speak with FBI profilers. So there may have been housing situation agreements, privilege agreements. We don't really know. But that would also be part of the control, right? Getting what you're looking for in exchange for giving up something else.

[Josh Zieman]

So once again, it all comes back to the one thing Rex has spent his entire life trying to maintain. Control. Control over his victims, over his family, and over the two Personas he so carefully created. We know that Rex searched for articles about the case and his victims throughout the years. Most people assume he was simply tracking the investigation, making sure he was always one step ahead of the police. And that may be true, but what if it was more than that? What if Rex wasn't just monitoring the police, but monitoring himself, Watching how the media portrayed him, how strangers interpreted his crimes? Because maybe for Rex, controlling the narrative was more than just avoiding capture. Maybe it was always about preserving that mask.

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[Josh Zieman]

Well, it's interesting the idea that he had spoken with Keith Jesperson. They had had a correspondence and in this correspondence he had said, and I don't know if this term is really what it means, but do you have butter for your bread? You know, Rex was very, seemed to be concerned about the conditions that he was facing.

[Mark Safrak]

Right. Again, I think those are negotiation points. If you go to trial, then you've given up all of that because you're, you're going to be fighting the prosecution's case, right? And then if you are convicted, then you have no negotiation, you've lost that ability to negotiate. Now, you might be able to, you know, still agree to do this interview. But if you start off with the premise and we're talking about a pretty, pretty sharp guy, pretty intelligent guy, if you analyze the situation, which I'm sure he did ad nauseam, he recognized where the case was going and from the get go, I think he's looking to exert control in negotiations and in how the plea goes and what he gets and what he doesn't get. So all of this for me are various Aspects of trying to control the narrative of the story and also control the dynamics of the events that are unfolding.

[Josh Zieman]

And looking at this planning document, it's all about control. It's the list of things to do, making sure you don't get out of control. Control. Make sure you have enough sleep. So this is just par for the course for him.

[Mark Safrak]

Right. People, I think, were surprised that, you know, he agreed to a plea agreement. I. It didn't surprise me. I've seen other offenders do that for various reasons, but I. I think, you know, we've discussed that, you know, why he probably did so. That didn't surprise me that he did it. It did surprise me that, you know, he agreed to do the interview with the FBI. But again, that might have been part of the proffer, and he's getting something for that. But I think it's a very good thing. It's good for research and for us learning from somebody like Oyerman, you know, the answers to these questions. So I was a little surprised that he agreed to do that, but I'm glad he did.

[Josh Zieman]

What about a trial? You know, are we robbed of important answers, of important things, things that could have come out?

[Mark Safrak]

I don't think so, because I don't think he would ever have taken the stand. So, you know, you have the forensic evidence, which was very compelling. Right. But I, you know, if he doesn't take the stand, you're never going to know what actually occurred. Right. Because many of these victims weren't found for many years. So you, you know, you can identify hairs and fibers and link them to Heuerman or to his wife. You can link his vehicle. You can link the cell phone records and the calls. But I don't think it gets you the answers that you're looking for.

[Josh Zieman]

And I do wonder. You know, of course, there's. There's law enforcement, and then there's the families. Is it good that it spared the families the tragedy of hearing all the terrible, terrible things that he could have done to their loved ones?

[Mark Safrak]

Clearly. And I think that family input is always really critical in these kinds of cases. You have to take into consideration what the families want, you know, that they have to understand all of the options that are available. And I just don't think that you would have gotten the answers since I don't think he would have taken the standard. So you're left with, you know, the forensic evidence that they had that linked him, and ultimately he'd be convicted. But I just don't think that family would get the Answers, you know, I'm very respectful of what the families deal with. And of course, I've dealt with lots of families in these. In these types of cases, even, you know, in filming, when I interview family members and in the cases that I've worked, I think it's critically important to take what family members want and how they want to proceed, you know, into your deliberations as to how you're going to proceed with a case like this.

[Josh Zieman]

It said that Rex is going to make a statement at sentencing. Yeah,

[Mark Safrak]

I don't know what he'll say. I mean, it could be similar to what BTK did at his rather unemotional statement of facts. I guess we'll just have to see.

[Josh Zieman]

There is this self controlling the narrative, self editing. Is it fake?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Apology?

[Josh Zieman]

Is it real? Could it be real? Could there ever be any contrition?

[Mark Safrak]

You know, I think, like I said, I think earlier, you know, when you are talking about a psychopath, it's on a scale. Psychopathy is on a scale. So can he have some modicum of empathy, perhaps? Can he express some level of remorse? Not likely. But when you listen to the statement, then you can make that assessment. What is he saying and how is he saying it?

[Josh Zieman]

That was my interview with FBI profiler Mark Safric. In a future episode, Mark will come back to break down what it really means for the behavioral analysis unit to interview Rex Heuermann. How will they get him to give up his secrets? And what do they expect to learn? And how much of this ties back to Rex studying John Douglas's book Mindhunter and using the lessons of the FBI profilers to allegedly evade detection. And then there's Rex himself. Can we ever expect him to come clean? Or is this simply just another form of manipulation? Because if it's one thing we learned about Rex Heuermann, he's determined to control that narrative at all costs, especially when it comes to certain victims and secrets he's been trying to hide. But we're determined, too, not to be led down the only path that Rex wants us to go. Not to accept the only version of events that he wants us to hear. Because ever since that guilt guilty plea, we've been pulling on the threads of his tightly woven narrative, watching it slowly unravel as a darker picture emerges. One of other victims in other cities and a full reckoning of his crimes at Rex Heuerman never intended the world to see.

[Mark Safrak]

Foreign.

[Josh Zieman]

Ready to keep listening? Remember, you can binge the rest of the season right now with an I heart true crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts plus. You get exclusive bonuses and ad free listening. So head to Apple Podcasts, search I Heart True Crime plus and subscribe today. Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer is a production of Tenderfoot TV and iHeart podcasts, hosted, written and executive produced by me, Josh Zieman produced and written by Kaitlin Colford. Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot tv. Matt Frederick and Trevor Young are executive producers on behalf of iHeart podcasts. Original music by Alex Lysarenko, David Little and makeup and vanity set. Our supervising producer is John Street. Editing and writing by Daniel Lonsberry. Additional voiceover provided by Rachel Mills Additional production provided by Ghost Robot Sound design, mix and master by Dayton Cole Cover Design by Byron McCoy Interns Arnetta Fontenot, Shelby Hansen, Alec Walker and Fox Williams. A and e Television Networks, LLC. Audio from the Killing Season used under license. Copyright 2025 A&E Television Networks, LLC. All rights reserved. Special thanks to the team at United Talent Agency, the Nord Group, Brad Abramson, Todd Leibowitz, Rich Pirillo and Jigsaw Productions, Rachel Mills, Zachary Mortensen, Jen Beagle, David Baker, Joe Jacalone and Evan Krause, as well as the teams at iHeart Podcasts and Tenderfoot TV. Find us on social media at MonsterPod. For more podcasts like Monster Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, search Tenderfoot TV in your podcast app or visit Tenderfoot tv. And if you want to keep following my hunt for the Long Island Serial Killer for a deeper dive into my other true crime content, join me on YouTube at Sinister with Josh Zieman.

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