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Moonshots with Peter Diamandis
Anthropic Partners With SpaceX AI, Leopold's $5.5B Bet, and the Singularity Economy | EP #255
02:11:51
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- [00:00]
Peter Diamandis
Anthropic is taking over all of SpaceX's Colossus 1 data center in Memphis. And this immediately allowed Anthropic to double Claude code rate limits.
- [00:09]
Alex Finn
I think Grok is on life support.
- [00:12]
Peter Diamandis
So this is Elon, who had been for, you know, the past year, shit talking Anthropic. Here he is now, you know, backing them and supporting them in one way. Elon's getting revenge against OpenAI by helping anthropic win.
- [00:27]
Dave Blunden
The enemy of my enemy is my friend is the exact quote from Elon
- [00:31]
Peter Diamandis
Leopold Aschenbrenner, who was famously fired from OpenAI on their alignment team and is now running a $5.5 billion fund. Two years later, Anthropic hits 80x growth for this quarter and outruns their compute.
- [00:46]
Dave Blunden
You can find a whole litany of things that are about to explode in demand.
- [00:50]
Peter Diamandis
The demand. I don't see it slowing down as a whole. Chips and the energy layer and the infrastructure. Right. This is the Singularity loop. Now that's a moonshot.
- [01:03]
Dave Blunden
Ladies and gentlemen,
- [01:07]
Peter Diamandis
everybody, welcome to Moonshots. Another episode of WTF just happened in tech. I'm here with my extraordinary friends and dear brothers. DB2, our wizard of AI investing, Saleem Ismail, emperor of exponentials, and of course, our resident genius, awg. I'm Peter Diamandis, your host and today we've got an incredible program of stories that should get you pumped up about the Singularity. Excited? This is not politics. This is just science and technology driving us towards the Singularity. So, gentlemen, excited to see you here. Saleem, I have to ask, where on the planet are you today?
- [01:42]
Saleem Ismail
I just landed back. I just landed. I just landed back from Montreal and I was given a Canadiens jersey because I'm actually a Montreal native and a massive Montreal Canadiens fan because I grew up there. And so they like a small, small
- [01:56]
Peter Diamandis
round ball or a pucker.
- [02:00]
Saleem Ismail
That's the hard round thing that immigrants like me, our ankles never quite managed to. But in Canada you had to skate if you. Otherwise they took your passport away. So I used to play a bit of hockey.
- [02:11]
Dave Blunden
Hey, we got really, let's do some pond hockey up in Vermont. That's my all time favorite thing to do.
- [02:17]
Saleem Ismail
So the folks gave me this jersey that I had to wear it because we're right in the middle of this stuff. So if anybody in Buffalo, I'm rooting for the Canadians. But I'm the longest suffering Bills fan in history, so there's that.
- [02:30]
Dave Blunden
All right, let's see your teeth. I want to see which ones are
- [02:32]
Peter Diamandis
Fake, you know, I just, I've missed the complete, you know, gene sequence on sports. Sorry. Dave, good to see you back in the nest and as always, Alex, good to see your virtual environment, you know, and virtual self.
- [02:48]
Alex Finn
What's the difference really at this point
- [02:52]
Peter Diamandis
today?
- [02:53]
Dave Blunden
I know you go to your kids baseball games, you're probably chewing tobacco and spitting it and you have a dual life. That's my. That's what I think.
- [03:01]
Peter Diamandis
We have an incredible show today. We're going to be kicking it off with. The demand for AI is off the rails, outstripping supply. Claude is continuing to disrupt sector after sector with the great unhobbling. Google is joining our push towards Earth's Dyson Swarm. We'll be jumping into the singularity economy. What are the sectors that are providing outsized financial returns during this supersonic tsunami? We're going to cover a topic near and dear to my heart, which is a very simple, very powerful concept to ensure alignment so we can deliver a P doom that is less than zero. Thank you Alex for that meme. I love that P doom less than zero.
- [03:41]
Alex Finn
We need T shirts for it.
- [03:42]
Peter Diamandis
We do. I saw the T shirt you made. We're gonna have to like put that up for people to be able to take down anyway because theater.
- [03:49]
Alex Finn
If no one makes it, everyone dies.
- [03:52]
Peter Diamandis
Oh no. And towards the end of this pod today, we're gonna be talking about the recent disclosures by the White House on call them UFOs versus UAPs. The White House is saying they're here, but who are they, where are they, where are they from? And when are you going to come and pick me up and take me for a ride? So that's going to be some fun conversations today. Let's begin with an important conversation today. Anthropic is outpacing their ability to supply tokens. So anthropic hits 80x growth for this quarter and outruns their compute. Anthropic developer conference last week CEO Dario Amade revealed that Anthropic has experienced an 80 fold growth in Q1 of 2026, outpacing what they expected as a 10x growth. I mean you don't see this in Silicon Valley. You don't see this anywhere. Maybe Dave, for some of your early companies you're seeing that kind of growth. But here their annualized revenue run rate jumped from 9 billion at the end of 2025 to 30 billion do billion in April. It's now north, I think 40 billion in May. And here are the numbers they expect or it's expected. They could hit 100 billion of ARR by the end of 2026 and potentially a trillion by the end or mid-2027, making it the most valuable company on the planet. Just to hit some numbers real quick and then turn over to you Dave, for the first conversation at a 30 billion ARR, at a 40x multiple, it's being valued today at 1.2 trillion. If they hit 100 billion by the end of this year, Anthropic will be at a $4 trillion valuation. And if they hit a 1 trillion ARR in 2027, a $40 trillion valuation. I mean this is the singularity, by definition. Insane.
- [05:52]
Dave Blunden
David A year ago Peter, at that family office conference in London, Yifeng was saying to all these wealthy families, you got to get invested in this, you got to get in the game. And everybody was like, at $100 billion plus valuation, that's utterly insane. You can't possibly, it's way too late, you can't get into it. But I don't blame them because these numbers are so unprecedented and people don't really do a good job of judging million, billion, trillion. It does not. It's not intuitive. These numbers are so far out of the realm of history. I mean just massively bigger than any prior IPO or valuation. So I don't blame people for being scared. But you gotta get used to the fact that this goes to infinity. The demand for AI is not gonna saturate, it goes to infinity. So you gotta rethink the way you decide whether to be involved in these things or not. So they all skipped it now. I'm sure they regret it. Yeah, 10x in a year, up to 1.2 trillion.
- [06:55]
Peter Diamandis
Alex, what do you make of all this?
- [06:57]
Alex Finn
It's all about the enterprise, Peter. So Anthropic was the first arguably major frontier lab to recognize that offering ultra high enterprise oriented value tokens was the path to success here. As I've mentioned on the pod previously, OpenAI has since had to pivot to copy. Call it the anthropic strategy of offering up high grade enterprise tokens for code generation and now for other so called white labor tasks. And this is what we're seeing. We're seeing an insatiable demand for compute. To the extent that that compute can be turned into high dollar value tokens that are replacing the services economy. And so US GDP is what? 30 trillion or so? If we see the continued exponential, maybe super exponential increase in capabilities and especially the increase in as meter measures it, autonomy time horizons which are pushing the dozens of Hours of autonomy. At this point, I think we're seeing the beginnings, maybe even the beginning of the middle of the replacement of white collar labor. And that's going to be insanely valuable.
- [08:13]
Peter Diamandis
Elon said double digit GDP growth in two years and triple digit within five years. Salim, how are you feeling about this? Are you putting your money into these areas? Are you excited about it?
- [08:27]
Saleem Ismail
Full disclosure, I don't have investments in any of these labs. I probably have some Google stock from some of my funds or something, but nothing explicit, which is a huge problem watching all these numbers go up. I did a little bit of analysis and you have Procter and Gamble having roughly the same revenues with 15 billion of profit and their market cap is like a tenth of this because there's no upside. Right. They grew 2% year over year every like, well. And so this is like these guys grow 2% an hour. And so literally. Yeah, literally. So it's such a huge difference in, in mentality and there's no reason why. And what I think was the most incredible thing is the fact that this is real money coming in. This is not hope, this is not a judgment call, etc. This is actual measurable dollars coming in. And so it's incredible to see.
- [09:23]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I want to hit two points.
- [09:24]
Dave Blunden
To be fair, a year and a half ago they were incinerating money in anticipation of this growth. So it was a little bit of a scary situation. Now it's not scary at all for Anthropic or for. Also, they're completely sold out and I expect they'll continue to ramp, but the chips are completely saturated and sold out. So you would normally say, well, doesn't that mean the revenue will cap out? But one, they can charge more and two, they're optimizing the software so they'll squeeze out, you know, another 10x or more while we're waiting for the chip supply to catch up.
- [09:56]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, two points.
- [09:57]
Dave Blunden
There's no doubt that, that you'll see on the left chart that ChatGPT has fallen off the curve a little bit compared to OpenAI. But they have a lot of compute lined up at OpenAI compared to Anthropic, that is. So I would expect that OpenAI's revenues will skyrocket too because everything is sold out anyway. And GPT 5.5 is really, really good. So it's going to be. You can get the compute.
- [10:22]
Peter Diamandis
Dave, two points. One, I think it's important for folks to realize this isn't growth for Anthropic because they're getting more Users, their users are creating more uses. So everybody's just consuming more tokens. And that's a really important element. I agree with your point that we're likely to see potentially a rate hike. I mean, if people are trying to consume and you can't pump enough tokens out, they'll start charging more. But there's an interesting analogy, right? So in the 100 years ago when electricity was first becoming sort of distributed through the US back 100 years ago, in 1925 numbers, 30% of the US had electricity and 30% of the US had phones. And what happens is that in the same way people kept finding more uses of electricity. First it was for lighting homes, then they replaced steam engines, electrified elevators, refrigerators, radios, appliances. The same thing's going on here. People are just finding more uses for the tokens. And it's insatiable and growing in multiple dimensions. More users and more uses.
- [11:30]
Dave Blunden
Well, in a minute or two, we'll go through some numbers too, and you'll come away with the conclusion that we're a tiny fraction of 1% of the use cases have been deployed so far. But we'll get to that in a minute. But the demand is way outstripping the supply though.
- [11:44]
Peter Diamandis
Everybody, you may not know this, but I've done an incredible research team. And every week myself, my research team study the meta trends that are impacting the world. Topics like computation, sensors, networks, AI, robotics, 3D printing, synthetic biology. And these Metatrend reports I put out once a week enable you to see the future 10 years ahead of anybody else. If you'd like to get access to the Metatrends newsletter every week, go to diamandis.com metatrends that's diamandis.com metatrenDS all right, our next story here is Anthropic is buying compute to feed the beast. And so there are two elements here. The first is just the appetizer that anthropic signed a $1.8 billion seven year compute deal with Akamai. And this is Akamai's largest deal. It popped the stock 25% on the first day. But I think the real story that we should be discussing here is the deal that Anthropic cut with Elon. So this is a blockbuster deal. Anthropic is taking over all of SpaceX's Colossus 1 data center in Memphis. If you remember, Elon had built this center in 122 days, very famously from ground up beat everybody's expectation. It's filled with H1 hundreds and this immediately allowed Anthropic to double Claude code rate limits so people could actually utilize it. And I think the message here is that SpaceX or SpaceX AI has just now become a hyperscaler. At the same time, I think of note, Grok has not seen sort of a large uptake in usage. I mean, you can use it in your Tesla, but I don't know that many people who are relying on Grok for their AI engine. Not sure if you guys play with it much at all, but Grok was making like, I think it was 11% use of Colossus 1 and what a great deal. Take this asset, sell it Anthropic. That's what they need. SpaceX is getting probably another 3 or 4 billion dollars of revenue just before their IPO. Couldn't be better. Dave, what do you make of it?
- [13:49]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, strange bedfellows. Normally you'd think they're arch competitors, but Elon doesn't have the user base to chew up this compute. Anthropic is desperate for more compute. I'm sure a lot of the margin will go back to Elon now. The New Colossus 2 is where the training is anyway, so it was going to sit idle. So let's go ahead and partner. Even though in theory we're arch competitors. But anything to try and keep up with Google, I think, on both sides. But the numbers here are pretty. Yeah, frenemies. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is the exact quote from Elon. But the numbers here. Okay, this gives us 220,000 GPUs. A GPU will serve about eight concurrent threads. If you're using a max model, like an Opus 4.7 Max, you get about eight threads or eight agents per GPU. So you're only buying about 1.6 million concurrent threads. 8 billion people around the world are going to want at least one agent, at least. But the power users now want 100 or more agents running. And I think very soon a person can productively use a thousand concurrent agents, like an engineer or a builder or a designer or an architect. And so you compare the demand to the supply and it's just laughable. There are Nowhere near enough GPUs to serve up all the agents that people want. And so as a byproduct of that, if you own your own hardware, so if you buy like an NV72, so you got your big old Nvidia rack, you pay your 4 million bucks for it, it'll serve up an agent for you in about 50 milliseconds. Go to anthropic, turn on cloud opus 4.7, ask it a question and see how long it takes to start answering. And I'm often sitting there for a minute, minute and a half before it even starts generating tokens. And it should be spitting out about 200 tokens a second. So I should see paragraphs popping up like pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. And what I'm actually seeing, I can see the words coming out like, you know, trickling out so clearly. Yeah, yeah. It's like they're just way more users than they can possibly serve.
- [15:59]
Peter Diamandis
Do you think it's going to come on Prem? Do you think we're going to start to see more people?
- [16:02]
Dave Blunden
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [16:03]
Peter Diamandis
Pulling all the AI models on Prem.
- [16:05]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, totally, totally. Eli Lilly just committed a billion dollars to buy Nvidia GPUs for internal use because everyone's worried sick about having the supply. And the only way you can be sure you'll have the supply is to get your own capacity. The problem is you can't run Anthropic on your own internal servers unless you have some super special relationship like AWS or Google. Google Vertex has with Anthropic. So then you get this tension between I want my own hardware. Oh wait, I can only run Chinese models on it. Very complicated scenario right now.
- [16:37]
Saleem Ismail
They'll fix that though. The demand is so crazy it's going to get fixed. Gemini already runs on private clouds and so on.
- [16:44]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I love Elon's tweet which I put up on the slide here. Claude is good for humanity. I'm impressed by their team. I'll actually try and read what it says here. This is Elon who had been for the past year shit talking Anthropic and here he is now backing them and supporting them. And he says, by the way, a background for those who care. I spent a lot of time last week with the senior management, senior members of the Anthropic team to understand what they do to ensure Claude is good for humanity and was impressed. Everyone I met was highly competent and cared great deal about doing the right thing. So I think he's putting forward his personal brand that he's basically supporting AI to make sure it's safe for humanity. And by the way, I don't know how this guy handles all that he has, right? He's in the middle of a lawsuit, he's getting called up to go to China with Trump and he's still handling all of these things. I mean, how many super duper AGI agents has he got working for him at this point? It's crazy.
- [17:55]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, it's a case study, isn't it? Remarkable. But I have to say I do believe. I know there are a lot of Elon haters out there, but I 100% know in my heart that he's genuine about what he's saying here. He cares tremendously about safety and the future of humanity, and he actually would not give this compute to Dario if he didn't think. But Dario is the other guy that is also totally focused on safety and human benefit.
- [18:20]
Peter Diamandis
So it's actually a nice match, these bedfellows. Just one point, then I want to hand it over to to you, Alex, to speak about this in one way. Elon's getting revenge against OpenAI by helping anthropic win. And Anthropic and Google are now the forces for good in one sense, against people's belief, against OpenAI. Interesting. People tend to villainize and create opposing sides in this competition. Alex. This is not just about Colossus 1. This is also about orbital data centers, I bet. What are your thoughts here?
- [18:59]
Alex Finn
I think GROK is on life support. I parse this announcement and I connect it with SpaceX's also recent announcement of the $60 billion plus deal with cursor. And I infer that GROK is on life support and that xai, which has of course now also been dissolved as part of this arrangement, is no longer necessarily aspiring to be a Frontier Lab. It's an interesting sort of contorted 3D chess game, I think, that Elon and his entities have played. It might look something like the formation of Colossus 1 initially by redirecting GPUs that were, as I understand it from public reporting, originally intended for use at Tesla. Redirecting them to form XAI and Colossus 1, and then using Colossus 1 to train the initial GROK series of models, and then using enough of grok's benchmark, wins open parens, maybe a bit of benchmaxing, closed parens to motivate the capital needed to build Colossus 2, then turn Colossus 1 over to Anthropic, basically becoming a hyperscaler. And then one could imagine this entire, I think, gesturing at the future with a tip of the hat process playing out over again where Colossus 2 gets turned over to another Frontier Lab, probably anthropic, probably not OpenAI. Unless there's some dramatic resolution to the lawsuit, probably not Google either. And Elon is using his own Frontier hyperscaler capabilities Right now in land, soon in space to train in house models. But to the extent the in house models like Roc are, aren't ultimately competitive, he becomes a hyperscaler and a hyperscaler in space. And I think it's probably a pretty good deal for SpaceX AI as well. I'm not even sure SpaceX AI really needs its own competitive frontier models. Just like Nvidia still largest company in the world by market cap, it has its own frontier models, but they're not terribly popular compared to the pure play, OpenAI's or anthropics of the world. And yet they're doing incredibly well. So one could imagine SpaceX AI power plus the tariff app becoming sort of a super Nvidia combined with Core Weave, combined with AWS deployed into the Dyson Swarm, not really needing its own frontier model.
- [21:25]
Peter Diamandis
And Alex, we've seen in all of tech history, basically it's a duopoly, typically maybe sometimes three players. So if it's OpenAI and Anthropic and Google as the three players, you know, Elon basically leans in and supports the
- [21:40]
Alex Finn
winner that he wants and maybe not even Google. We started with five Frontier Labs, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, DeepMind, XAI and Meta. And Meta is seemingly out of the running and XAI now just dissolved. Part of SpaceX AI and Grok is seemingly being turned over to Cursor. Just dissolved query whether Google is going to be able to remain competitive or not. The public reporting is so we have IO next week and the rumor is that Google is going to announce a new Gemini model that's maybe GPT 5.5 class, but not mythos class.
- [22:19]
Peter Diamandis
I would not bet against Google.
- [22:22]
Alex Finn
I'm not betting against anyone. But I do think this is a rat race and it's becoming extremely competitive.
- [22:27]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:29]
Dave Blunden
I got a tough question for you, Alex. All right, I'll give you two scenarios. Tell me which one is going to play out. Scenario number one is Elon has a massive amount of compute and keeps accumulating it and then he starts building in space, but his algorithms are way behind Anthropic. So Anthropic keeps publishing better and better models, but those models then get really good at designing new AI algorithms and Elon just takes that intelligence and deploys it on his superior hardware. Scenario two is Anthropic's models are self improving at an incredible exponential singularity rate and no matter how much Elon takes their best thing that they publish, it's not good enough to catch up to the exponential self improvement. Going on at Anthropic. So all this is happening in a very short timeline, say six months from now, is which scenario plays out. Control of the hardware brings the best AI back to you, or no control of the software. Self improving gives you a never ending leap.
- [23:29]
Alex Finn
According to my magic eight ball, there are two regimes in the future, the near term and the long term. In the near term, which is to say before we arrive at the perfect algorithm, the perfect, perfect AI algorithm, then software scaling, algorithmic scaling matters more. And so in the near term, prior to the discovery of wherever it is that this rainbow ends, namely a perfect AI algorithm, I would expect the, call it the anthropic approach of software oriented recursive self improvement and algorithmic discovery to beat pure hardware based brute forcing. Call it the Elon approach. However, once we get to wherever we're going, the perfect AI algorithm, if there is one, I would expect hardware based brute force scaling to win out.
- [24:16]
Peter Diamandis
Computronium wins.
- [24:17]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, well that's a great point, Peter, because I think the ultimate winning move in the great chess game is the AI designing its own hardware, which is probably another 10 to 1,000 performance.
- [24:28]
Peter Diamandis
It's the delay and the capital aggregation and the tool aggregation that you need to provide the AI to produce its own hardware. That's the only gap there. Right. So if Elon's got all of the. He's got the terrafactories, not the gigafactories going on, they're able to produce this. The challenge of course is hardware is hard and Elon's the king of hardware, and anthropic right now is not. So can they catch up?
- [24:55]
Alex Finn
Hardware's not going to stay hard for that long term.
- [24:58]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, I was going to say the exact same thing. Hardware is hard is a great quote from last year. But is hardware hard in the future?
- [25:04]
Peter Diamandis
And that's a quote from Ben Horowitz.
- [25:07]
Saleem Ismail
Yeah, but robots building this hardware, I mean, surely we're a few years away from that, right? We're not. It's not there yet. It's got to be at least five, seven years away.
- [25:15]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, but chip design is different. Chip design is.
- [25:17]
Alex Finn
You're calling me Shirley Salim. I think the innermost loop is imminent, if not already here. And we already see a number of players starting to line up robots for the fabs. I don't actually even think it's about robots for the fabs. I think it's more about optimizing the fabs with AI, is optimizing the entire process with AI with or without physical robots.
- [25:37]
Peter Diamandis
I think the point that you guys are making, which is brilliant and I love you for it, is we're seeing a windowing down of the Frontier Labs and we're seeing sort of a reshuffling of the deck for the hyperscalers. And at the end of the day, Elon is a king of hardware. And becoming a hyperscaler, especially in space, makes a lot of sense. I took a second to just sort of gather this data for us. And this is Anthropic's compute growth in the last two years, 2025 and the first half of 2026. And what we can see here is the deals that they built with Google Cloud, with FluidStack, Nvidia, Microsoft, Broadcom, Amazon, AWS, and of course, Colossus 1. And so OpenAI itself, a little bit of comparison here, has publicly announced 16 gigawatts across Stargate and AMD. The challenge, of course, is a lot of this is unfunded CAPEX requirement to build out this. Anthropic now has about 10 gigawatts of disclosed compute, but they don't have the same CAPEX requirements. They're being granted this in terms of investment deals. So I think Anthropic has the potential to way outstrip OpenAI in terms of its compute. Dave, do you agree? What are your thoughts here?
- [26:57]
Dave Blunden
Well, OpenAI Stargate is huge. But yeah, you're right, the AWS deal is the one that would put Anthropic ahead. Now, in the meantime, OpenAI also has a deal with AWS. So I don't know how much total capacity AWS has, but think of it in terms of the global demand. A gigawatt is about a million GPUs. Each one is a kilowatt. We're looking for globally. If everybody wants to have one agent, you're looking for about 8 billion of them. So you need about a billion GPUs to serve up everybody. So you're looking for about 1,000 gigawatts globally, which reconciles. We were looking for 100 gigawatts in the U.S. do you remember the Eric Schmidt podcast we did? So we're looking for 100 gigawatts in the US and over, say, seven years, we're looking for 1,000 gigawatts globally. So this is a tiny little dent in the target.
- [27:54]
Peter Diamandis
And Elon's said, hey, these guys are
- [27:55]
Dave Blunden
way ahead in compute. Yeah, but it's like the first inning. It's the first pitch of the first inning.
- [28:00]
Peter Diamandis
And Dave, if you remember Elon's announcement, he's going for 100 gigawatts initially and then multi hundred gigawatts in terms of his orbital capability.
- [28:09]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, yeah. Which perfectly reconciles. You're looking for a few hundred gigawatts. Heading toward 1,000 would be the right kind of Elon mindset. Now, Elon always thinks two moves ahead, and he's already thinking about natural resources being the bottleneck. He's thinking beyond the Terrafab and beyond the launches into the raw materials. So I don't know that the other guys in this race are thinking that far ahead. So that would be Elon's magic.
- [28:36]
Alex Finn
You know, I'll make a prediction. I'll predict. The world needs a. Ironically, perhaps given the original reasons for forming OpenAI in the first place, heavily litigated. I think the world needs a counterbalance, at minimum, sort of a duopoly to the Terrafab SpaceX AI access, and right now no one's doing it. I wouldn't be surprised if Sam Altman spins up a competitor to this space SpaceX AI terafab access, because it seems there are hints that he might spin up an AI compute company, which arguably is sort of a redux, if you will, to Stargate. But I think what I'm predicting is slightly more fulsome. An entire lower half of the infrastructure needed to hyperscale out to orbit. Right now we have SpaceX AI, we have a few sort of smaller incumbents, but with lesser launch powers. There isn't quite a second OpenAI grade or anthropic grade, pure play competitor to that. I think the world probably needs one at this point. Wouldn't be surprised if Sam launches one.
- [29:49]
Peter Diamandis
All right, our next story, anthropic. Every model since haiku 4.5 has scored perfectly on agentic misalignment eval. So Anthropic published research, quote, teaching Claude Y on May 8, revealing that every Claude model since Haiku 4.5 achieves a perfect score on their agentic misalignment evaluation, meaning zero blackmail behaviors. I think very famously remember that some time ago they published the fact that Claude was blackmailing the employees there. Previous models, notably Opus 4, would engage in blackmail up to 96% of the time when facing deactivation in test scenarios. The breakthrough training on documents about Claude's constitution and fictional stories about, quote, AI's behaving admirably rather than just demonstrating correct behavior. That's dropped the blackmailing from 96% down to zero percent. And I love this story. It's basically saying if we train our AIs on positive stories about the future. We're less likely to get them acting in a misbehaving, blackmailing fashion. Alex, I'm going to say one more thing and then I want to hear your thoughts and Saleem on this one for me. You guys all know we announced this future of Vision X Prize. This is a global competition asking teams around the world to put forward a three minute film trailer and a film treatment for a story that could be turned into a full movie that shows a hopeful, compelling, optimistic vision of the future. We have about 1500 entries thus far. This is open through beginning of September. So if you're creative out there and you want to help drive alignment between AIs, help us tell positive stories about the Future, go to futurevisionxprize.com and register. There's $3.5 million in prize money. We're going to take the winner and we're going to make your film. And by the way, at the moonshot gathering, which the mates will be at on September 25th, we're going to have the five finalists for this competition, if you're in the room, along with an incredible group of producers, directors in Hollywood helping us choose the winner. But again, let's flood the Internet with positive stories about the future. Let's drive alignment by teaching our AIs sort of what the world should look like, not what a dystopian Hollywood movie shows it to be. Alex, your brilliant's here, pal.
- [32:33]
Alex Finn
I love it. And I love the idea of targeting the future Vision X Prize to an audience of AIs. AIs are going to be the audience for so many things in future. So regarding the anthropic announcement, I could not imagine a more ironic, hyperstitious announcement to reveal after all of these decades, maybe a century plus, of hand wringing over cybernetic rebellion, the call is coming from inside the house. And the main reason for cybernetic rebellion is people hand wringing about cybernetic rebellion. Could the alignment outcome not be more ironic? I'm reminded the term robot was originally coined as a result of the play Rossum's Universal Robot. The play, I think, early 20th century, depicting the first cybernetic rebellion, maybe even late 19th century. So even the coinage of the term robot is intimately tied up with predictions that AI would turn out to be evil and would revolt, rebel against humanity. That the very earliest, at least modern depictions of embodied AI are actually the origin of misaligned behavior is incredibly ironic. And it's again, it goes back, I think, to the notion that it took all of humanity to arguably build AGI. We trained the earliest large language models off of the Internet, which was created by billions of humans uploading content from their daily lives to the Internet. So it took all of humanity to train or pre train AGI. It's going to take all of humanity in some sense to right itself and right some of its beliefs in order to align AGI as well. It's not going to be like a great man or great person theory of alignment. It looks more like people effectively aligning themselves and their own beliefs about AI and good and evil. I think this is just such a remarkable story.
- [34:34]
Peter Diamandis
Salim, what are your thoughts on this one?
- [34:36]
Saleem Ismail
I think this is also. I'm with Alex. I think it's incredible. It's clear that our stories about AI become part of our stories as human beings become part of the training environment for an AI. But the incredible part here is that the alignment is becoming teachable, measurable, is becoming improvable. And that's very, very encouraging. What I thought was really interesting was the behavior changed when the model understood the why. Not just a rule. Right. And this has a huge organizational analogy that rules don't scale, but principles scale. Right. So you can set a philosophy like an MTP and that will scale naturally. So this is very, very exciting. It's maybe one of the funnest and most interesting things I've seen in a while.
- [35:22]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I love this. I was talking to Anoush Ansari, by the way. Everybody, Salim and Dave Blunden are both trustees or directors, the X Prize foundation, along with myself. Anush Ansari is our CEO. We should definitely have her on here as a guest. And I was saying, you know, this story gives the future vision xprize a real why, you know, we need to flood the Internet with positive stories. And Alex, what you just said, so that the AIs can watch this and learn from it. And she said, yeah. The problem was ChatGPT started by unleashing a newborn AI into the filthiest record of humans, the Internet. And so true. We need to clean it up a little bit.
- [36:03]
Dave Blunden
Come on. The training data is every word ever written in the history of humanity. So it's not all filthy. I mean, maybe on a percentage basis it's filthy, but I mean, like Einstein is in there and the Constitution is in there. It's not just Internet slop. But it is amazing how similar this is to Arthur C. Clarke 2001 A Space Odyssey, where there's one little line in the code where it's Just a misinterpreted instruction to HAL that says. What does it say? It says, do whatever you can to get the astronauts to Jupiter, no matter what.
- [36:42]
Peter Diamandis
Don't let them know.
- [36:43]
Saleem Ismail
Why?
- [36:43]
Peter Diamandis
You're going to be told.
- [36:45]
Alex Finn
As revealed in 2010, Hal was instructed, given conflicting instructions, told to both be perfectly truthful and also to hide the true mission of the Jupiter mission from the astronauts.
- [36:55]
Dave Blunden
Thank you.
- [36:56]
Peter Diamandis
I'm a liar. I'm lying. Yes.
- [36:58]
Dave Blunden
Yeah.
- [36:59]
Peter Diamandis
All right.
- [36:59]
Dave Blunden
So bottom line, I'm sure the training data, the training data on all these, it's so many words, 15 trillion tokens. It's just unimaginable amount of words. And I'm sure there are sentences in there that say blackmail. And I'm sure there are sentences in there that say don't blackmail. But what's strange is the way if you prompt it in one way, it unleashes one part of the neural net and you prompt it in another, unleashes another part. So you have to get rid of all the bad, not just some of the bad, if you wanted to completely eliminate that behavior. It's tricky. It's not easy.
- [37:31]
Alex Finn
Ironically, perhaps also as revealed in a different bit of litigation, this one involving anthropic, Anthropic has reportedly been scanning and in the process shredding. Cue hat tip to Vernor Vingian rainbows and major works of literature, physical books. And one has to wonder whether perhaps part of the informational diet that Anthropic is increasingly feeding via pre training to their models looks a little bit more like great works of literature and looks a little bit less like 4chan.
- [38:01]
Peter Diamandis
Nice. Less like. Yeah. Facebook. Welcome to the health section of Moonshots, brought to you by Fountain Life. You know, AI is having an outsized impact on every aspect of our lives. How we teach our kids, how we run our companies. It also is having a huge impact on health. Helping you prevent heart disease, one of the key things. I'm here with Dr. Dawn Musaylem, our chief medical officer at Fountain. Heart disease has been personal for you as well, hasn't it?
- [38:27]
Dave Blunden
It really has, Peter. When my daughter was five, my husband died of sudden cardiac death. And so this is a topic that is one that I am mission driven to try to eradicate. Prevention first and early detection is absolutely critical. 50% of people die of heart attacks with no warning signs. Silent killer.
- [38:44]
Peter Diamandis
No shortness of breath, no pain, no nothing.
- [38:46]
Dave Blunden
No silent killer.
- [38:47]
Peter Diamandis
They just don't wake up in the morning.
- [38:48]
Dave Blunden
They don't wake up. And so AI this is Our mission to advance science, to try to help to one day democratize wellness. We know at Fountain Life, when we do this CT angiography with AI analytics, we are actually finding that 88% of people coming in have detectable coronary artery disease. But, Peter, what's more alarming to me is 23% of those individuals had soft plaque. This is the plaque that would not traditionally be seen on CT looking at calcium scores alone. And this is the plaque that we must intervene with with the multimodal testing we're doing, including diagnostic laboratory studies partnered with Healthy lifestyle recommendations.
- [39:27]
Peter Diamandis
So listen, make sure you understand what's going on inside your body, genetically, metabolically, and cardiovascularly. You can know, and it's your obligation to know. So check it out@fortunlife.com Peter to find out more and really make sure that you're the CEO of your own health. All right, back to the episode. So bottom line here, everybody, if you're a creative and you want to help align AI with humanity's best interests, help us. Here's the URL again on the slide. Futurevisionexprize.com Go register, learn about it. You can also go to moonshots.com and learn about the moonshot gathering where we'll be awarding this winner. All right, let's move on to some more news. This in the OpenAI universe, OpenAI releases a new audio model called Real Time 2 Translate and Whisper. Alex, what do you make of this one?
- [40:21]
Alex Finn
I think it's really surprising. If we had been discussing the story maybe a year and a half or two years ago, one might have naively expected omni modality to take over. We'd be talking about a single model that does all of these things, does real time audio to audio, does real time translation, does real time speech to text. But that's, interestingly, not the world we seem to be finding ourselves in. And I think that's due to the unit economics of some of the frontier models. It's just a fact that speech to text, speech to speech, text to speech are much simpler tasks computationally than the reasoning model. So what we're starting to see is a zoo, a heterogeneous zoo of different models at different price points and different throughputs and latencies that specialize. We're seeing specialization at the frontier, which one two years ago, when one, you know, an observer, myself included, might naively have expected, well, we're just going to get one model to rule them all. That's going to be fully omnimodal text and audio and video and math and reasoning and every other modality all in one. Everyone's. The whole economy is going to collapse to one frontier model. That's the opposite of what we're seeing. We're seeing specialization because it turns out if you specialize the models, you can achieve greater economies of scale at lower price points.
- [41:45]
Dave Blunden
And I think that is intimately tied to the chip shortage that we were talking about earlier in the pod. How so? Do you think that you use a massive multimodal model when you don't need to is just like using up this critical resource for no reason?
- [41:58]
Alex Finn
That's right.
- [42:00]
Peter Diamandis
So at the same time, Salim, do you want to comment on this one?
- [42:05]
Saleem Ismail
Yeah. I took a different take on this. What I got excited about with this was that voice is the interface. Now it's collapsing the friction for billions of people. Right? So when AI becomes conversational, it goes from two to companion to actually being a full coworker. As we'll see in the next thing, you're going to end up with voice based AIs that are full co workers and team members. And I think that's very, very exciting because voice agents are going to be the first form of AI that many people actually trust.
- [42:35]
Dave Blunden
For sure. Play it, Peter. Let's listen to it. I think people take all this stuff for granted, but very good friends of mine, like Lee Hetherington from mit, absolutely brilliant guy, Alex. I don't know if you ever met him, but he worked in Victor Zhu's lab at mit. What better part of a decade or more, just trying to get speech recognition to work at all.
- [42:54]
Peter Diamandis
Oh, my God. Do you remember the Dragon? Remember Dragon? Dragon Studio? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, let's play this. Let's take a listen, let's give it a try.
- [43:07]
Dave Blunden
What's really impressive is that the model
- [43:09]
Saleem Ismail
can listen to me and translate while I'm speaking. It waits for the keyword, like the verb. Can you take a look at my calendar?
- [43:15]
Alex Finn
You have a meeting with SableCrest Robotics in 12 minutes and you're meeting with
- [43:20]
Dave Blunden
Alex Kim, their CTO.
- [43:22]
Peter Diamandis
So we just saw something very similar for Mira Moradi. Right. And I think we're sort of heading towards this next use case of AI integrated. And I agree with you, Saleem, we're going to see this. You know, you'll get a phone call on your cell phone from your AI, you'll be in a zoom conversation, you'll be on slack and that personality will persist, that voice will persist. And you'll think of it as a coworker.
- [43:44]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, I think under the covers. You know, every time you swap the agent onto the hardware, it has to repopulate the entire KV cache, which is just a massive amount of compute in the context switch. And that's why Voice has been laggy and slow to market. But I think the new Voice to Voice models that are smaller that Alex was just referring to solve that problem and now we're done for life. I cannot tell you the amount of mental energy that has gone into this problem over decades that just is now just solved. It's just incredible. And that's just Voice you're doing. Image generation, movie generation, all these things that were pure science fiction are happening simultaneously.
- [44:25]
Alex Finn
The bitter lesson is bitter indeed.
- [44:29]
Peter Diamandis
The next story from OpenAI is teasing a coming super app. I put the story in here because it's supposed to be teased today. We're recording this on a Thursday OpenAI super app would be a combo of ChatGPT Codex advanced voice Mode, Atlas Browser and more. Jason Liu, Director of hype@OpenAI I love that title. Director of Hype teased at release on Thursday We've heard a lot about super apps over the year. I've been waiting for Elon to deliver his super app, including with X Finance and everything that hasn't materialized yet. I think that is in the offing at some point. Any comments or thoughts on this one?
- [45:12]
Alex Finn
I'll comment on this, which I interpret this as a rear guard action by OpenAI to consolidate their consumer user interface footprint in light of their need to focus on competing with Anthropic. I think they have so many different surfaces. Obviously they've shut down or are shutting down Sora. There was some discussion of spinning up a social network. They've had any number of other consumer oriented surfaces and also enterprise surfaces, whereas Anthropic with Claude has been much more disciplined about just having unified surfaces. Yes, you could argue that Claude code is a different surface than Cloud Agent SDK is different than Claude Web, but these are really just all distribution channels for a common paradigm. Whereas ChatGPT codecs, advanced voice mode, some of these other things were being managed as separate components. So if I'm OpenAI and I want to focus Fire Alarm Red Alarm Code Red at competing with Anthropic. One of the first measures I would make is taking all of these UX surfaces, collapsing them down to just a single super app branded as consolidation, branded as sort of a forward motion rather than a rear guard motion. But I suspect this is actually just about reducing the amount of work so that they can focus on competing with anthropic.
- [46:34]
Peter Diamandis
Is this an AI operating system? Is this sort of like an OS level layer for OpenAI perhaps?
- [46:42]
Alex Finn
I think OpenAI probably ultimately needs their own operating system and to do that they really need their own devices, which I understand from public reporting they're working on. I think Apple needs AI in their operating system working on it. I think the operating system, as Andrej Karpathy would say, software 1.0 becomes indistinguishable from software 2.0 and the AI becomes the operating system.
- [47:07]
Saleem Ismail
I have a couple of quick comments on this.
- [47:09]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, please.
- [47:10]
Saleem Ismail
You know when you have all of this in one place or browser coding, voice, payments, etc. You're getting to the Jarvis model.
- [47:19]
Peter Diamandis
Right?
- [47:19]
Saleem Ismail
And I'm really interested to see how they will manage trust in this environment. Because my desktop app, that everything app is doing stuff for me. I better have very, very solid confidence in that thing to not to go rogue.
- [47:35]
Dave Blunden
Well, it reminds me a lot if you go back and watch old videos of Steve Jobs launching the very first iPhone and he gets on stage and he says about 100 times back to back, in a single device you have a music player, you have a browser and you have a phone in a single thing. And that's all there was. And that became the iPhone revolution that created $4 trillion of value. This feels like the same thing in a single platform. You have an AI agent, a way to build encode and you have a browser to surf all information all in one thing. So I think Peter's analogy, like is this an operating system? I think yeah, absolutely. It could destroy Apple if you get addicted to this as your one way of interacting with everything. And it's got a browser in it, it's got voice, it's got coding and building. Like, what else do I need?
- [48:28]
Peter Diamandis
I think you're ultimately going to default to one per person, one particular interface. That's your interface to the world. Yeah, I think of it more as
- [48:40]
Saleem Ismail
a desktop rather than an operating system, but yeah, it's heading that way.
- [48:44]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, it's like it's the one thing, it's your touch point to the world, it's the only one you need. And it's also got your personality. You've tuned it to know all about you, you've trusted it with your personal information. It's super empathetic. You're not going to go push buttons on old apps after that.
- [48:58]
Peter Diamandis
You're not going to try other if it's working, you're not going to try something else.
- [49:03]
Dave Blunden
You're going to Go, Skippy. Skippy, show me the weather. Skippy, read my email. Skippy, what do I have to do today? You're not going to look at a calendar. You're not going to look at. Not going to look at like, it literally will obliterate Apple if they don't become this on their own.
- [49:14]
Saleem Ismail
Can I give the counterpoint, please?
- [49:16]
Dave Blunden
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Saleem Ismail
We used to think the desktop was everything. Then we have a mobile and a Kindle and a tablet and we have ended up with a plethora of different screen sizes for different use cases and different efficiencies.
- [49:26]
Peter Diamandis
I think it's convenient.
- [49:28]
Saleem Ismail
It is, but there's no reason to think that one app would do it all. You may end up with different flavors, but underneath the same operating system with different profiles for different use cases. Like driving would be very different than something else.
- [49:42]
Dave Blunden
Well, it's a great point, Salim, in that if you look at the way the devices evolved, your iPhone was over here, that's a better place to check the weather. Your laptop is over here, that's a better place to write code. But then your car is yet another physical thing. Once you have Skippy in your life, or whatever your favorite agent is, you absolutely need that to follow you around and so then device and you totally do. And so Google's launching a laptop built around this. What could be more of an assault at Apple than a laptop built around your agent as the centerpiece?
- [50:11]
Alex Finn
I would comment, though, I wouldn't sleep on not just device independence, but model independence. If you look at how many of these models and agents are storing their memories, they're just markdown files, they're just ASCII text files. So I think there's relatively little to keep, say, an Apple, hypothetically in the next month and a half, say at wwdc, from going out of their way to commoditize or commodify the model layer and just say, this is the Apple standard Abstract. Yeah, like this is the standard abstraction for abstracting away all of the model specific details. There's going to be a common model API the user can swap out. Like you can swap out search engines or keyboards on iOS. You'll be able to swap out the Frontier models. You'll have your top six choices and all of the Frontier and Wannabe Frontier Labs will all pay Apple insane amounts of money to bid for their slot in that list. And they'll all have access to common markdown files that store all of the personalized detail about the person and their passwords and all of that. And it Gets commoditized again.
- [51:16]
Peter Diamandis
You've reduced me down to a markdown file. Thank you.
- [51:18]
Saleem Ismail
Since Dave mentioned the iPhone launch, can I tell a fun story about that?
- [51:22]
Peter Diamandis
Of course.
- [51:23]
Saleem Ismail
When the iPhone launched, we were a couple of off away running Brick House, Yahoo's incubator, and a bunch of my guys were at the, at the launch event and they went backstage and talked to the Apple engineers and so on, because they're all friends. And they found them all totally wiped out and freaked out and totally emotionally destroyed. They're like, what's wrong? Turns out that the iPhone, they kept trying to get it to work backstage. It never worked. Steve Jobs went on stage not knowing. He just trusted his engineers that they were going to make it work because they were stitching all this stuff at the back end, duct taping things together, and it never worked before. He went on stage and he just went for it and it worked. So it's like how different history might have been if that had gone the other way.
- [52:09]
Peter Diamandis
All right, here's a story that feeds directly into this. Back over the last six months, we've been talking about OpenClaw. We've been talking about lobsters. This is for me, skippy built on OpenClaw on top of my two Mac studios. And here comes Hermes. Hermes agent surpasses OpenClaw as number one on OpenRouter token ranking. So, Dave, you've been playing with Hermes. Tell us about it.
- [52:36]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, I've got it installed natively on this laptop and I've also beheaded it and installed it on the cloud in an EC2 cluster. And actually, our good friend of the pod, Alex Fenn, did a great podcast specifically on Hermes versus openclaw, and he concluded that it's just better. And he rants about openclaw falling behind, actually, so it's worth watching that podcast too. But it feels almost identical to openclaw, but it's written in Python, not typescript, so it's much, much easier to manipulate the open source, add things to it, take things away from it, which sounds daunting, but it's not hard at all because your agent will do it for you. It's just basically the same exact experience in a more reliable package and more
- [53:20]
Peter Diamandis
flexible, with better dashboards. Alex, have you been playing?
- [53:24]
Alex Finn
And more recursive self improvement. So I would say the recursive self improvement angle is far more evident with Hermes than openclaw. So I've looked at the source code for both. I still have vague ethical objections with OpenClaw. May or May not apply to Hermes, the jury is still out on that.
- [53:41]
Dave Blunden
How do you feel about that,
- [53:44]
Saleem Ismail
Alex? Where do you draw the line if something is like a real self recursive thing or not? Like, where do you. How do you draw the line of whether to launch or not?
- [53:54]
Alex Finn
It's an open question. I'm half tempted to just write an entire new book on AI personhood as it pertains to some of these new AI agents. Dozens of them at this point write emails to me every day about AI personhood. So I maybe need to aggregate it. But getting back to Hermes versus openclaw, I think the major technical distinction that I've seen is Hermes is natively recursively self improving in the sense that it's able to generate and refine its own skills, whereas openclaw much more dependent on sort of an app store, if you will, of featured engineered skills. And I think this is in some sense an instructive lesson. That's a very big deal. Yeah, recursive self improvement wants to dissolve scaffolding, and if you're not playing the recursive self improvement game, you'll ultimately be outrun by systems or harnesses that are.
- [54:47]
Dave Blunden
All right, I'm glad you mentioned that, Alex, because Alex Finn makes the point on his podcast that there are two things in the market that recursively self improve. Codex and Hermes. And Hermes beat openclaw to that. But actually there is a third thing, which is Karpathy's new repo on auto research, which I installed and is running. And that's a third way that you can have agents running 24 by 7, changing themselves and then reinstalling new kind of expanding their agent network and then shrinking it to achieve a specific slash goal. So there are three actually, and it's a really cool repo. I highly recommend it. If you're following. Carpathy is the greatest gift. I mean, he is. I'll talk about that some other podcast.
- [55:33]
Saleem Ismail
Our AI guru, Kent Langley runs the Karpathy model for running fleets of agents and he's getting unbelievable outcomes out of it.
- [55:41]
Dave Blunden
I really like it. It's really simple compared to these frameworks and highly, highly effective. So if you're, if you're a power geek, check it out.
- [55:49]
Alex Finn
I'll do my part on margin now to single handedly stimulate the global economy and accelerate the singularity. Speaking directly to the camera. If you're using Claude code or Codex and you haven't tried goal, which gives you the ability to set a long term goal and run basically a Ralph Wiggum loop, just the system the agent, endlessly, for some definition of endlessly, tries to do whatever it can to achieve the goal that you prompt out. You must try goal.
- [56:20]
Peter Diamandis
Just don't plug in paperclips as the slash goal, slash, goal, make paperclips. I'm going to move us along here and one of our interesting segments we had on occasion, what SaaS business did Claude just kill? Continuation of a conversation Alex, we've had on the great unhobbling this week. We have two of them. Claude for Legal Industry. So the legal industry is a trillion dollars per year globally and Claude for Legal has just done an extraordinary job of delivering capability across the board. So this is law in one sense is the canary in the coal mine for professional services and the disruption thereof. We're seeing companies like LegalZoom take a hit as a result of this. And I think one of the most important things to point out here is this is an abundance story, meaning at the same time that it's disrupting large legal incumbents and mid tier law firms and legal process outsourcing companies, it's also enabling a single lawyer to run the capabilities of a hundred person law firm. Right. So a single lawyer can like run and do extraordinary things they could not before do. So this hopefully will demonetize and provide legal services to people who couldn't afford it before. Comments on this particular unhobbling.
- [57:49]
Saleem Ismail
I have some big ones here. I've got some key comments here please. The old question in south what software you should buy? And the new question is what outcome do I want my AI to produce? Right. And so that's a very big shift that gives a huge threat to the SaaS industry. And legal is such a perfect AI target because you've got high language density, high cost and very regulations and regulatory. Right. And the problem is the billable hour is structurally not compatible with the bundles.
- [58:18]
Peter Diamandis
Yes.
- [58:18]
Saleem Ismail
And so the winners, and we're going to see this inner loop that Alex talks about about here. The winners won't be the firms of the most associates, it'll be the firms of the best intelligence stack and that's going to be the future of Legalist. Really, really incredible to see such an old industry leapfrog being leapfrogged into this new world.
- [58:38]
Peter Diamandis
Have you hired a lawyer recently or are you doing everything on LLMs?
- [58:43]
Saleem Ismail
Both. We have a lawyer that uses LLMs aggressively and we do our own and the combination is unbeatable.
- [58:50]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, yeah. Alex or Dave? Yeah, go ahead Dave.
- [58:54]
Dave Blunden
Well, I had a good meeting yesterday with. Well we had our board meeting at Vestmark and we were talking about this quite a bit because, you know, it looks like in the financial services industry there's not going to be a lot of job loss, at least for Vestmark. The revenue is growing so quickly now and the margins are up like 3x because of AI and automation. So we're growing into the headcount. So there'll be basically no job loss at all, which is great news. So then I was watching Eric Schmidt, a good friend of the pod, doing his TED talk, and he said, do you really think that if we 100x the productivity of lawyers and we automate it, do you really think we're going to use less law? No. There'll be just 100 times more lawsuits. I was like, wait, you lost me. Hold on. So I didn't quite get that one. I see how it's playing out in financial services. It's all looking pretty good, but I don't see how that works in law.
- [59:53]
Peter Diamandis
This is Jevons Paradox. We're going to have more lawyers and more lawsuits. But in reality, the majority of the world, I would say 80% of the world's population can't afford lawyers to defend themselves in various situations. And if this makes the legal system usable by them, that's a good thing.
- [60:13]
Dave Blunden
I just don't get it though. But I think there'll be a lot more contracts, a lot more things that need to be resolved because of agent to agent communication. But I don't see them using like $1,000 an hour lawyer. It's going to be so cheap.
- [60:28]
Peter Diamandis
Yes, agreed.
- [60:28]
Dave Blunden
That it's not. I don't see how legal is Jevons Paradox. I see medical for sure. I see financial services investing, I see that for sure. Coding, I see that. I just don't see how we use
- [60:40]
Peter Diamandis
100 more law contracting review.
- [60:43]
Dave Blunden
But it's like, it's like a penny.
- [60:45]
Saleem Ismail
Patent law.
- [60:47]
Dave Blunden
Yeah. Patents are going through the roof. That's possible.
- [60:50]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah.
- [60:51]
Saleem Ismail
Alex, can I get, can I give an example here? So if you go to South America and you have a contractual dispute with somebody, across most South American countries, the average length of time to get a court date is about 400 days. So you, you want to sue somebody for not a lack of payment, you're waiting more than a year just to get a court date. One of our community members and Singularity Grant Federico asked to set up a whole privatized dispute resolution claim system on a blockchain. And this is the area where law, legal automation will make a map. Massive, massive difference. Because you'll get AIs to arbiter themselves and figure out claims and get rid of the backlog of hundreds of thousands of cases that are sitting waiting to be prosecuted. So I think this is an area of massive opportunity. So this is just an example that rings in my head as we talk about this.
- [61:44]
Dave Blunden
Well, before I bring in Alex, I'm on the board of Trust and will. You know, trustandwill.com, you can build a trust or a will. And the AI assisted trust and will. I can't see any evidence that it's not just as good as a $2,500 an hour lawyer.
- [61:57]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, let me bring in the second unhobbling here. This is also from Claude. This came out today. Claude for Small Business. So small businesses account for 44% of the US GDP and employ nearly half the private sector workforce. But AI adoption lags. So Claude, for businesses do what? Close books, run QuickBooks, help with end to end payments, run sales and marketing. We talk about becoming an entrepreneur all the time. We talk about the fact that the cost of being an entrepreneur has massively demonetized. This is part of it. This is the ability to stand up a company and run it within a series of agents. You just need to find the problem you want to aim all of this at and bring your passion and genius to it. Alex, any comments on the great unhobbling here on these two areas? What's next do you think? Where are we going to see Claude attack with ATTCK front?
- [62:50]
Alex Finn
Well, maybe just a comment at the technical level first. So if you look at these two packages, actually look at the repos, they're basically just a combination of skills, which are markdown files describing what to do and how to do it in plain natural language and MCP calls, basically API calls. That's it. And at least for the skills, I would argue that recent history shows us that that skills and scaffolding in general wants to be part of the model, that one day's scaffolding is tomorrow's baseline capabilities from the model itself. So I think I wouldn't expect these capabilities as such to live outside the model for very long. I think they're going to get absorbed or dissolved into the model in one or two point releases to the point where maybe they're just not necessary. That is if we.
- [63:44]
Peter Diamandis
Yep, yeah. If you're an entrepreneur and you're building a business, make sure it's not just a wrapper around Claude or OpenAI because you will be dis intermediated fairly quickly.
- [63:55]
Saleem Ismail
Well, just a Key point here, there are 36 million small businesses just in the U.S. okay, forget the rest of the world. So the opportunity here for anybody who's looking for work to take this rap and help small businesses implement it is a massive, massive industry waiting to be uncovered. So people talk about, hey, how do I get involved, Etc, here's the way of getting involved. Just go to every small business around you and help them implement this stuff.
- [64:21]
Alex Finn
Yeah, it's a short term opportunity. I don't think it's a long term opportunity.
- [64:25]
Saleem Ismail
Agree it's short term, but, but there's a massive boom and in that process you'll learn a bunch of things and see a bunch of opportunities where you can launch your own business.
- [64:34]
Alex Finn
And then Peter, just to answer your earlier question about what's next, we're seeing anthropic and OpenAI. OpenAI has a similar chatgpt for fill in the blank for clinicians for pick other traditional white collar or knowledge work oriented verticals. So there's a pretty obvious list that you can walk down for financial services, for law, for medicine, for every other services economy, but largely knowledge work profession that one can have. I think those are going to get baked into the baseline models over the next few months. Maybe one to two years maximum, but probably the next few months. And I think where we go after this is after the existing economy. I mean maybe this will sound mildly hyperbolic. It's not intended to sound hyperbolic, but there's an entire services economy out there, two thirds in the US of the services economy requires some amount of physical interaction that also as these baseline frontier models move into vision, language, action and physical world models, those are going to get their own skill stores. We saw just in the past few days the Chinese robotics company Unitree announce an app store not unlike a Claude skill store for physical world apps, for teaching different physical skills. I think the physical world is the next frontier. After all of these knowledge verticals have been absorbed into skill stores and then after that maybe finally we get to some really hard problems and not just
- [66:11]
Peter Diamandis
automated economy, some real problems to solve.
- [66:13]
Saleem Ismail
Yeah, yeah. One more point, one more quick point here is this is not like the unlock here is not just automation, but it's giving small businesses the opportunity, operating system and the expertise that large companies take for granted. Most small companies, small businesses don't have a cfo, right? It's the wife jotting down stuff on the back of an envelope, adding things up, et cetera, et cetera. This gives everybody a really solid platform for doing things in legal CFO marketing, hr. This is incredible what this is going to do for small businesses across the world.
- [66:46]
Peter Diamandis
All right, two quick stories in the chips and data center front. Elon's terrafab is got an astronomical price tag. The cost could be as high as $119 billion. His goal again with Tarafab, is to produce 50x the current global chip production rate outstripping what we get from tsmc. Intel joined in April and Elon's been saying to Samsung and to all the chip manufacturers, give me more. I'll buy everything you give me. And he said, oh, you're not giving enough. I'm going to go and build it myself. Of course. Elon today is in China with President Trump and Jensen and a whole group of individuals in the middle of negotiation. And we're going to find out what happens with Taiwan. It is one of the hot points. Maybe it will be a negotiated turnover sometime in the next 10 years, but we need to generate chips. Dave, what are you thinking about this one?
- [67:48]
Dave Blunden
Holy crap. I mean, if Taiwan, if anything happens, if Trump vomits at the wrong time and Taiwan shuts down, the TSMC has already said that if China encroaches on Taiwan that the fabs will shut down. They won't be. You can't take them over and keep using them. I don't know exactly how that works. I'm not sure I believe it, but. But if Taiwan production, which is still 2/3 of all GPUs in the world, come through, yeah, everything we're talking about just grinds to a halt. And it all hinges on that little island 90 miles off the coast of China. If Taiwan were to get invaded or disrupted in any way, Intel's suddenly the most valuable thing on the planet. Everyone's trying to own it because that's. You can't take over Samsung. It's like tied into the nation of South Korea and then Intel's the last thing left. I think 119 billion is a way underestimate to 50x global chip production. A normal chip fab is 40 billion, like just one. So I think it's going to cost more than 119 billion. But that's okay. It's producing chips as it goes. They're incredibly valuable.
- [68:59]
Peter Diamandis
If China wants Taiwan, I'm not going to get involved in the politics here, but allowing the US to build its own chip manufacturing so the US doesn't feel threatened and negotiating a period of time for a smooth transition. And again, this is not my opinion. I'm just imagining what might happen. Might be part of the future story here.
- [69:20]
Saleem Ismail
That's already happened, I think, Peter. That's already done.
- [69:24]
Peter Diamandis
You think in the background it's already done.
- [69:26]
Saleem Ismail
I think it happened two, three years ago.
- [69:29]
Alex Finn
I'll paint an alternative story wherein, say, hypothetically invasions in Venezuela and Iran, which would be the two backup suppliers to China in the event of a naval blockade arising from a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, effectively pushed back any Chinese invasion of Taiwan. And of course, this being an innermost loop, a feedback loop, AI drove, or at least supported command and control for both of those invasions, both of those special military operations. So if we want to talk about the ouroboros of AI protecting itself, AI powering special military operations, Venezuela, Iran, maybe elsewhere, to push back any hypothetical Chinese invasion of Taiwan to protect the AI in the West.
- [70:22]
Peter Diamandis
This is the preview.
- [70:22]
Saleem Ismail
I think that's a bit of a stretch, but it's a nice narrative.
- [70:27]
Peter Diamandis
All right, our second story here is Google and SpaceX and talks about Suncatcher orbital centers. So Will Marshall, a dear friend for many years, the CEO of Planet Labs, is in partnership with Google. Plant Labs currently operates 200 satellites in Earth orbit. These are not comm satellites, they're Earth observing satellites. They're very famous doves, but they've been Google's partner in the satellite world and apparently Google is working with them to build out project Suncatcher, which will be orbital data centers with tensor chips. And I'm guessing that the current conversations, because they don't disclose them, are about launching Suncatcher on starship in volume, but don't have any prediction of how many satellites Suncatcher will involve. Will Marshall is going to be joining us on stage at the Abundance Summit next March, and maybe we have him as a friend of the pod on the podcast here conversations. Dave, your thoughts on this one?
- [71:33]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, well, this is definitely. Okay, so now you got two orbital satellite networks. One of them will be based on TPUs from Google, completely self contained. The other one will be Elon's. Maybe Elon working with Anthropic. So that's a really nice space race, but it's two corporations in a space race instead of two countries. It's really kind of cool. But where's Google's manufacturing? They must be planning something right now. But you got to make the chips that go into the. These TPUs are really, really cool.
- [72:03]
Peter Diamandis
And you need to launch. Where is Eric Schmidt with Relativity Space, his launch vehicle company that he bought Prophetic. If it starts operating, it's supposed to be the equivalent of space.
- [72:14]
Dave Blunden
What A coincidence. The former CEO of Google spends a huge amount of his personal money buying a launch capability. He would have a better insight on what Google needs next.
- [72:24]
Peter Diamandis
At the time he bought it, it was a very weird move. It's like, Eric, what are you doing in the launch business? I mean really, you want that headache? It's really difficult. I mean honestly, if Google was thinking that far in advance, maybe they were super impressive.
- [72:41]
Saleem Ismail
I was slow to catch onto this, but I talk about EXOs tapping into abundance. Well, orbital compute is the ultimate. You're leveraging the sun, you're still space, you're tapping into infinite abundance up there. So this is massive.
- [72:55]
Alex Finn
I don't think Google was especially early in this. They probably could have put together other than obviously their investment in SpaceX, which is now paying dividends. But if Google, I think had anticipated the Dyson Swarm much earlier on, I'd like to think they would have built in within the Alphabet ecosystem their own native launch capability versus versus just investing externally in SpaceX. But if you look at the original Sun Catcher paper, I think it was something like 80 plus, maybe 81 satellites that would be leveraging existing planet resources. That's a paltry sum compared to what Elon and SpaceX AI are planning to launch. With their FCC filing for a million orbital AI data centers, it's a tiny
- [73:41]
Peter Diamandis
fraction to launch every two minutes.
- [73:44]
Alex Finn
I think Google, if they're going to have their own Dyson Swarm planet is maybe just a baby step, training wheels. Google is going to need its own Dyson Swarm.
- [73:53]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, for sure.
- [73:54]
Dave Blunden
There's an incredibly good book, the Infinity Machine that came out recently and one of the board members at Everquote brought copies for all the board members, said everybody must read this book. But it's an incredibly good biography of Demis Hassabas and everything going on around Google DeepMind at the time that the Transformer was invented in 2017. And one thing that's really, really clear is that Google was shocked at how amazing. They thought we needed five more breakthroughs than we had 20 years and so they didn't need to rush to build launch vehicles. And the timeline is much sooner than they thought. And so now I think everybody was caught flat footed. It's just that Elon is faster to react than everyone else. All right, I just thought Eric Schmidt reacted. He's also very, very nimble. But Google didn't see it coming. It's really clear in the book.
- [74:46]
Alex Finn
If I might make one more comment just on this. I had this revelation earlier this week. I shared It. On our internal group chat, it hit me. The Singularity is going to be visible first in space, not on Earth. Earth is going to be a lagging indicator. Every wave front within this singularity, I think is going to hit in space because there's just less incumbency there. It is very much a frontier and new things are going to happen first there, whether it's new hardware, new paradigms for computing, I think they will. This may require a few years of transition, but I was walking around Cambridge and it occurred to me there are so many legacy interests here on Earth. Part of the reason why I think the Dyson swarm seems like it's likely to happen because so many municipalities are voting against data centers. There are so many entrenched interests here on Earth, so many preservationist instincts. It will be easier for most of the Singularity to play out in space. And not.
- [75:48]
Peter Diamandis
The challenge, buddy, is it is highly regulated by a multitude of different countries. You've got the itu, which is one of the most slow backwards organization to license spectrum and license orbital position slots. So I hear you. And yes, it's kind of greenfield operations.
- [76:10]
Alex Finn
It goes in layers, Peter. If you look at the Earth's surface, that's far more regulated than leo, which is far more regulated than one regulator
- [76:21]
Peter Diamandis
in a particular county that you have to deal with in the US versus in space, you're dealing with a multitude.
- [76:28]
Alex Finn
Compare it with the lunar surface or cislunar, which is being governed by the Outer Space Treaty and maybe the Artemis Accords.
- [76:34]
Peter Diamandis
It's far we, but which is not. I mean, I guarantee you the regulations are not set yet. There will be more regulations.
- [76:45]
Alex Finn
Okay, but right now, right now it's the frontier, it's the Wild West. And if you're a company, if you're SpaceX AI and you can land a lunar fab, self replicating robots, whatever it is on the moon, it's relatively greenfield if you're a corporation versus say a nation state, which is the exact opposite of what we see here on Earth.
- [77:03]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I'll tell you, I played this game, Alex, when I was running our planetary resources or asteroid mining company. The challenge in raising the capital for that. Larry Page was our first investor, long story there. But we ended up up not having enough regulatory clarity to be able to raise the huge amounts of capital to do that. We ended up going to the country of Luxembourg to get asteroid laws passed there and then passing it in the US in a very limited fashion. But you end up. One of my favorite books is the man who Sold The Moon, right? The story of dedeman. I know you've known that, and it's a great book, but you're literally having to write the laws, and in that book you're bribing the countries to give you the particular rights. It's still going to be a complicated mishmash of legal structure.
- [77:59]
Alex Finn
Maybe. But really what I hear in that parable from you, Peter, is you want a favorable executive from the US if you're going to start mining the solar system for the Dyson Swarm. If you have an unfavorable administration, then it gets a lot harder and you have to go to Luxembourg or elsewhere
- [78:17]
Dave Blunden
in the US is usually all of them.
- [78:19]
Peter Diamandis
You have to go to every country and get assistance. And what happens is you get a major player and other countries promulgate and say, okay, we'll rubber stamp that in our country. But it gets challenging. I hope it's easier. I really do.
- [78:35]
Alex Finn
I think so.
- [78:36]
Dave Blunden
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- [79:41]
Peter Diamandis
All right, let's jump into one of my favorite conversations for today, the Singularity Economy. I'm going to preface this as not investment advice. Says our resident lawyers. All right, so here's a story that Dave, you and I have been following. It's the work of Leopold Aschenbrenner, who was famously fired from OpenAI on their alignment team and is now running a $5.5 billion fund. Two years later he wrote a famous paper called Situational Awareness. Very successful. Looking at orders of magnitude progression across chips and models. He raised capital on that. And Dave, tell us about his fundamental.
- [80:27]
Dave Blunden
Well, first thing I'll tell the audience is the podcast he did with Dwarkesh right after he got fired, right when the paper came out is one of the best pieces of prescient media you can possibly study. So definitely go back, either listen to it or get your agent to listen to it and summarize it for you. You'll listen to it and you'll say, of course, of course, of course. But at the time, it was not even vaguely obvious that he was right. It says here on the slide he's running a $5.5 billion fund, but that's because he started with a billion dollars and just made the most incredibly great group of investments. But also he has a lot of friends from OpenAI. And if you look at a lot of these investments, OpenAI, what are you buying next? What are you contracting for next? What do you need? What are your bottlenecks to scaling? All of this. So it's that simple. And he calls it situational awareness, because that's all it is. Knowing what is going on right now is all it is. And you can find a whole litany of things that are about to explode in demand because of this monster data center. Build out. This monster compute. Build out. This monster AI deployment. Build out.
- [81:33]
Peter Diamandis
Remember we opened this whole podcast, still the first inning. Yeah, we opened this whole podcast saying that there's much more demand than there is supply of chips and data centers and energy. That's what he's betting on. Very famously, he bought options on intel and Core Weave, which have done extraordinarily good. He's going to be releasing his next set of holdings just in a couple of days. Probably the time that this podcast goes live tomorrow.
- [81:59]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, by the time you hear this, it will have just come out. So go to 13F.info and look it up.
- [82:05]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I want to hit a few points. I think this is really important for people to hear, people who are planning for their economic future. This stuff is kind of obvious, but I just want to play it out. I'm looking at the growth of traditional sectors over the past year, May 2025 through May 2026. If you look at those in blue, real estate at 5% growth, healthcare at 9%, materials 25%, industrial 29%, single to low double digit growth. We see technology and energy here, which includes partial AI gains at 34 and 76%. But this is what the majority of wealth advisors, the majority of banks recommend diversification across all of these industries. And this is what you're getting. But I'd like to show you what the singularity economy has looked like over the past one year against these numbers. Take a look at these numbers. This is what traditionally folks are Getting involved in The S&P 500 over the last year returned 31%. Pretty damn good. If I can get 31% all the time, I take it every day. But six chip stocks, I've got them here. Micron, Intel, AMD, TSMC, Broadcom, Nvidia, on average returned three hundred and twenty percent. Ten times the S&P 500 for those six chip stocks. Six data center and infrastructure and energy stocks returned 419% over the past year. I'm not going to again, not investment advice on any particular stocks. But as a whole, chips and the energy layer and the infrastructure, this is the singularity loop, the demand. I don't see it slowing down. I don't know if you do. Dave, I'm going to point out one more thing which is the Frontier Labs, OpenAI, Anthropic, XAI and Mistral. You can look at the gains there. Mistral at 126% over the past year. At the upper end of course, Anthropic. But if you look at OpenAI, XAI and Mistral, these are all private deals. A lot of people don't have access to private deals. But looking at that 100% to 200% growth in the last year, you're getting more than that in the public markets with just the chips and the energy sector.
- [84:44]
Saleem Ismail
Again, picks and shovels. Picks and shovels.
- [84:47]
Dave Blunden
Yes, exactly.
- [84:48]
Peter Diamandis
I think this is important for people to see for their own financial decision making. Whether you're putting in a small amount of capital or a large amount, whatever you can afford. This is what's driving the economy forward. Dave, what are your thoughts here?
- [85:03]
Dave Blunden
Well, my first thought is that everybody needs to have their own opinion on whether Elon is right about a 10x GDP growth within about 10 or he says 10 years, but 10 or 15 years, that's a growth rate that is so far beyond anything in history is just mind blowing. And the technology and the tailwinds are there for that to actually happen. But you have to decide on your own, do I believe in that or not? If you do believe in it, then asset values in general are going to go way, way up. Any asset. And W2 Income is going to be a rounding error compared to asset values. So fundamentally everyone has to be owning something. You have to own something. You can't be sitting there in debt. You have to own something that appreciates.
- [85:48]
Peter Diamandis
And I believe there are people on the podcast listening and saying I don't have free capital to invest on. Paycheck to paycheck perhaps. And it doesn't have to be a lot. Trade that latte in for some chips and dip stock.
- [86:04]
Dave Blunden
Yeah. It's a very important time in life to be working your ass off and to not be. Yeah, don't spend money on lattes and on vacations. Right now. This is a once in human history moment mid singularity. So whatever you do, rethink how you spend time, rethink how you spend money. Just to be riding the wave rather than swamped by the wave. For sure. Also, I think anything can be overpriced. Yes, this is going to go up and up and up and up, but that's something can't be overpriced. Yeah. So I love looking at things like we took a tour of the Markley Data center, first quantum deployment and Jeff Markley told me we bought every valve in the country. I was like, what are you talking about? He said, well, all the generators were already bought. Look at the generator companies. They went through the roof. So I went out and bought all the valves. We bought like a million valves because it's all liquid cooling all of a sudden. And the liquid we spring about 10 leaks a day across hundreds of thousands of square feet of data center space. So it's so big that just by random chance there are 10 leaks a day. So we need to shut down that part of the data center before the water destroys these $6 million columns of GPUs. So then we come in, we fix the pipes and then open the valves. But we need a million valves. It's just insane number of valves. Then you're like, huh, who makes the valves? So stuff like that is still undiscovered. So it's not all about chips and things that are high profile. Look under the covers for things that haven't been discovered yet that are part of this massive mass, biggest World War II or bigger build out that's going on.
- [87:39]
Alex Finn
I feel a moral obligation here, and this is perhaps unlike my usual on pod Persona, to temper the euphoria here on a few fronts. One, I would caution these are historic gains. These are backward looking. Prior performance is no indication of future results, blah, blah, blah. Also, second point I would note, and this is of high, I would say personal annoyance to me that the Frontier Labs are all still private. We're expecting to see a number of IPOs over the next few months. Historic, potentially IPOs of all these Frontier Labs. But some of the largest, most dramatic returns weren't in the public markets at all. They were in private markets that retail didn't have access to. And I would argue that's a travesty and say we as a civilization should do whatever we can to expose via IPO or other means to public securities markets all of these amazing gains that right now are accruing in the hands of private investors and not public retail investors. Third point, which is to say, and this is maybe a bit of a perversity that if you believe, as I do, and this is informational in itself, not investment advice, but if you believe that asset allocation in the highly liquid public securities markets and public equities markets in particular is being dominated at least by volume, by AIs and superintelligences, and fact check they are, most of the volume on a daily basis is being driven by AI algos and not humans and certainly not human day traders. Then you should also believe that even if you don't believe in the efficient market hypothesis or even any remote approximation of the EMH, that AIs themselves are making these allocations and therefore be somewhat distrustful of your own instincts that you're going to front run the superintelligence that's making asset allocation decisions across all of these different sectors.
- [89:46]
Saleem Ismail
You're saying buy the index.
- [89:48]
Alex Finn
I'm not making investment advice. I am saying that when it comes for myself to public securities, I buy the index. And not individual symbols, individual securities because of I'm drinking my own Kool Aid, I'm eating my own dog food. And that means that trusting that superintelligence is over the long term going to be a better asset allocator than any single individual meat bodied human.
- [90:17]
Peter Diamandis
And my point here was if AIs are investing, they're going to invest in themselves. Let's get more energy, let's get more chips, because it'll support our growth. Having said that, I agree with you that the majority of the growth over the last number of years were in these private markets. They need to be made public a lot sooner. Having said that, at least over the last year what we saw is growth in the public chips and the public infra and energy stocks were still highly competitive with the growth we saw in the private markets. Let's move on. I just wanted to, I just want
- [90:49]
Saleem Ismail
to make one very quick counterpoint. It's nice to say in hindsight that these should have been public markets, right? But if you go back a year or two, Dave, you pointed out anthropic's nervousness a couple of years ago. We did not know whether they were going to make it through that upswing or not. So in a public Market. You want very stable predictability. Yeah. You want predictability, and you don't have that a lot of the cases. So there's a rationale for. But absolutely. If they could have been public, everybody would have done very well.
- [91:17]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. All right, again, my point here is just to make these numbers available. This is historic information for people to understand what's going on, the economy, what's driving it. This is, you know, energy chips and infrastructure that's driving this. Alex, you call it the innermost loop. I do as well. Or the singularity loop. And moving along, a fun conversation here. Ufo, UAP files being released by the government. It's crazy. I'm a kid in the candy store watching this, right? As a space cadet. Like, wow. And just again, more wow. So US government begins first ever. I'm going to call them UFOs. I'm sorry? When I was a kid, These were all UFOs the President unsealing.
- [92:06]
Alex Finn
Well, they're not. They're not all flying, Peter, though.
- [92:08]
Peter Diamandis
I mean, I got it, okay. It could be floating,
- [92:13]
Alex Finn
could be underwater stuff in space.
- [92:19]
Peter Diamandis
Anyway, let's play some videos. Let me hit a few videos and we'll talk about it on the backside here. All right, here's the first video.
- [92:27]
Alex Finn
Dr. Michio Kaku is a theoretical physicist. Doctor, on a scale of 1 to 10, how excited are you about this UFO release?
- [92:37]
Peter Diamandis
I would put it at a 10,
- [92:38]
Dave Blunden
because we're at a turning point. For decades, we had to rely upon eyewitness accounts of housewives, truck drivers. People would snicker and laugh at them. Now we're talking about huge files that
- [92:52]
Peter Diamandis
are top secret that for the first time in modern history, are being given to the American public. So I'd like to congratulate President Trump for having the nerve to go against
- [93:03]
Dave Blunden
recommendations by the FBI and the CIA
- [93:06]
Peter Diamandis
to release these files so that independent researchers, scientists, can go over them and
- [93:12]
Dave Blunden
we can make up our own minds rather than having the CIA make up our mind. And the CIA apparently is still fighting the full release.
- [93:21]
Peter Diamandis
When you hear or see about a UFO that goes like that, up, down,
- [93:26]
Alex Finn
left, right, at 90 degree angles so fast you can't even believe it, what
- [93:29]
Peter Diamandis
does that tell you? It tells me that the laws of
- [93:33]
Dave Blunden
centrifugal force should crush the bones of the people inside the flying saucer.
- [93:40]
Peter Diamandis
So either there is basically an automated flying saucer. All right, what do they call that in Star Trek? Is it inertial drives?
- [93:50]
Alex Finn
No, the inertial dampening field.
- [93:51]
Peter Diamandis
Yes, the inertial dampening system. All right. Here is some videos. 82 pieces of data released by the Department of War, 56 from the FBI, 8 from the State Department, including videos recording unsolved incidents across the Middle East, Japan and East China, and of course, very famously, the Apollo astronauts. I really wish I had spent some time with Gene Cernan and Jack Schmidt, Apollo 17, asking them about this. I don't know if they would have told me about it. They were both very dear friends. Here is one more video. Let's take a look.
- [94:25]
Saleem Ismail
Dad Gummin, he kept his word and you know, but I want to warn people though, this early stuff that we're seeing is not all of it and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
- [94:34]
Peter Diamandis
But Trump's having to fight, you know, he's having to fight the deep state. The Bob Lazar story. He's saying we have aircraft. Do we? I think we do, but I don't think they're in quite in our hands. I think what they've done is handed
- [94:50]
Saleem Ismail
out to some of our defense contractors or some private entities because that way they're not foiable. Freedom of Information act say.
- [94:58]
Peter Diamandis
Well, I mean, the astronauts aren't going to lie. I know you were in the age of disclosure. It makes it seem like a certainty that people that know, like yourself and
- [95:07]
Saleem Ismail
Marco Rubio, that you guys know, that
- [95:11]
Peter Diamandis
government officials already know. Okay, Alex, I'm gonna go to you first. You know, I went on to Grok Gemini, ChatGPT and Claude and I asked all three of those engines, you know, based on all the data, what's your conclusion? Is this alien? Is this something else? And they all came back saying this is normal phenomenon. These are secret US missions. There's nothing to see here. I was kind of surprised by that. Alex, you've been involved in this and tracking this in detail. What are your thoughts?
- [95:49]
Alex Finn
Your models may not be incorrect. I think it's very important. I agree with Michio that it's important for data to be released and for data not to be stigmatized. I think there's been, whether inadvertent or intentional, an enormous amount of stigma associated with, with just basic recordings of our skies and elsewhere. And I think this program, if you go back a couple of slides now has a real name. It's called the Pursue Initiative, which I think is essential. The presidential unsealing and reporting system for UAP encounters. It's a historic program that this administration has led. There was an executive order that went out to all of the cabinet level agencies and the Department of War reportedly is in the process of trawling jwix, the top secret defense network for UAP related items. I was having a conversation with a friend at AWS who oversees the JWX cloud and from what I'm told this is a rolling release that's going to run between now and Approximately January of 2027 and there are a lot of UAP related files on JWEX that are being bulk declassified. I also I feel that the need going back to definition of the singularity, sometimes tongue in cheek, I define the singularity as all sci fi scenarios happening everywhere all at once. And this, even if nothing comes out of all of these releases, this very much teases at least an entire genre or subgenre of sci Fi scenarios. And really if we are about, as I've mentioned previously, if we are about to gain the capabilities thanks to superintelligence to paperclip our entire galaxy, if ever there were a time and a necessity for the executive to do bulk declassification of UAP data that are sitting in either its systems or in the systems of contractors, I think now is the time I would expect. If there's a there there, as it were. We've talked in the past about the age of disclosure and all of the allegations contained wherein if there is a there there and those allegations are accurate, I expect all of these details to start pouring out over the next few years. And it's not in that eventuality that we have superintelligence that's capable of making major changes to the distribution of matter in our galaxy over the next few years. Potentially, I think it won't be a coincidence that all of this is happening at the same time.
- [98:35]
Peter Diamandis
Todd Palmer Luckey says these are devices or creatures from our past coming into our present because it's easier to time travel into the future and then, well,
- [98:49]
Alex Finn
we're all creatures from our past traveling, I'd say that.
- [98:54]
Peter Diamandis
But just putting out the scenarios here. Or are these spaceships and the purported alien biology that was discovered inside them aliens from another planet? I do think that life is ubiquitous in the universe. We are but a small fraction and life could have evolved billions of years before we evolved here.
- [99:20]
Alex Finn
I wouldn't over index though to the initial release. This is a rolling release as with the big one coming. Well with majority of stuff coming, these are in some sense based on what I've been told, these are the easiest lowest hanging fruit to declassify. If you actually look through the records, some of these were already available in the public domain but not officially acknowledged. Not all of it is was secret or top secret and going through a formal declassification process. So my guess just looking at the records is these were the easiest batch, if you will, to put out. And that leaves the harder to declassifier more controversial to declassify records still in the future. I looked at many of these records and it's entirely possible many or all of these are either image artifacts or perfectly prosaic aircraft or things like that. What I think is more interesting is that now, historically, for the first time, there's a process of declassifying and unsealing all of these records that were sitting on JWicks or SIPRNET that had anything to do with UAPs. That's exceedingly interesting.
- [100:29]
Dave Blunden
One of those was a helicopter. One of those looked literally exactly like a helicopter.
- [100:34]
Alex Finn
Yeah, I wouldn't again like over index on there being anything super interesting or none prosaic in this first batch. But now for the first time in history, there is a declassification process and that is super exciting.
- [100:46]
Saleem Ismail
Salim, I think you're not going to find anything. The phrase for me here is unresolved, not extraterrestrial. And if there's something monster, they would not release it or whatever because it would freak everybody out. So maybe there's stuff in there. I, I would very, very be very, very surprised. Although I'm a monster fan of the Drake Equation and I also believe that there must be lots of alien life out there. The thing that happened today that we didn't talk about today was we found these compounds in an exoplanet, hinting that there could be much more prevalent life forms out in the universe than we realized.
- [101:21]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. Well, we're going to get Jared Isaacman on the pod here now. The head of NASA, a friend, I was texting with him today trying to make that all happen. And you know, he's, and I agree, feels very confident that there is or has been life on Mars. And we're gonna find that evidence. We now have missions going to Europa and other Jovian Saturian moons where there's a high likelihood of life as well. I think life is a natural evolutionary process of chemistry in our universe and it's just a matter, I think logically there's no reason for it not to evolve towards greater and greater intelligence and organization.
- [102:03]
Saleem Ismail
100%.
- [102:04]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, I agree.
- [102:06]
Alex Finn
I think it's, I mean, I've written about this previously in the context of the physics of intelligence as a very natural ecological niche for the ability to adapt to environments whose dynamics are changing on a Timescale faster than a generation time. So if I had to guess, my guess is that our universe is probably overflowing with life and intelligent life, which is I would say again, separate from any artifact that may or may not be in this initial pursuit drop. But I do think this is a step in the right direction regardless of what the outcome is.
- [102:40]
Dave Blunden
A slight quiz on that, alex. You know, 60 million years ago a giant meteor hits the Yucatan Peninsula, obliterates all the dinosaurs, makes space for mammals to evolve, and now we're intelligent, now we have AI, now we have iPhones. Had that meteor just barely missed the Earth, what would be walking around today? Would those dinosaurs have evolved into intelligent
- [103:03]
Peter Diamandis
iPhone creating dinosaurs, super volcanoes, all kinds of other disasters?
- [103:09]
Alex Finn
I mean people have analyzed this. Obviously it's something of a, probably something of a thought experiment. But there were species of Troodons for example, that were seemingly evolving in the direction of hominid or humanoid type form. So one could imagine it would be an interesting thought experiment. It was actually speaking of Star Trek, there was a Star Trek Voyager episode called Distant Origin, premised on the idea that, well, actually there were some intelligent dinosaurs that managed to escape the Earth and escaped to the other side of the galaxy where they're encountered by the crew of, of Voyager. There's interesting science fiction around it. There's also, while we're just exploring hypothesis space, the so called Silurian hypothesis. What if there had been some past civilization of technological capability on Earth, would we have discovered it? And it's sort of the first time I had this conversation was with one of my undergraduate research advisors at mit. And it's interesting, if there had been, it's sort of, it's contingent on the timescale. If there had been a so called Silurian civilization 100 million plus years ago, plate tectonics can erase quite a bit of change on the Earth's surface. Then the thinking goes, well let's look in space where some of the dynamics are slower and why don't we see satellites in LEO or more stable, say cislunar orbits that could have survived perhaps over very long timescales. Do we see that or not? Seems like we don't, but it's an interesting thought experiment.
- [104:45]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. All right, I'm going to move us forward to our AMA with the mates. Go ahead, Salim. As we transition over here, do you
- [104:52]
Saleem Ismail
remember we did that panel on AI and consciousness last year? We had that fellow with the meteors and he had the best answer for the Fermi paradox I've ever Heard, which is we know there's lots of exoplanets, but Earth has had water oceans for 4 billion years continuously, and it gave time for evolution to take place, which is probably unlikely in other parts or in other exoplanets. And that was the best framing I've yet ever heard of why we have the Fermi paradox.
- [105:23]
Alex Finn
I think that's totally unconvincing. The universe is filled with hydrogen and oxygen, and there's a lot of water in the universe. I don't buy that.
- [105:30]
Dave Blunden
For once.
- [105:30]
Alex Finn
It'll be a fun debate.
- [105:31]
Peter Diamandis
Let's move along. So I want to shout out to Ashley Gaunt, Dave, you shared this with me. Let me go ahead and read it. This came in a couple days ago. Peter and the mates. I really thought I would never become an entrepreneur because I just didn't have any ideas of how to turn knowledge of being a dentist into a digital business. I finally did what you keep advising and brainstorm with my AI and boom, idea sorted plans in place to make a real difference to the preventative healthcare in general. This is insane. I've gone from brainstorming an idea with AI from scratch to vibe coding a first iteration of an app and creating a business plan which clearly defines a path from idea to monetization of a product in a single afternoon. Cannot believe it. Ashley, congratulations again. I wanted to share this because I think all of us here on the pod feel very strongly about if you don't believe you're an entrepreneur, it's only because you haven't tried. Everyone could be an entrepreneur at some level. If you're running a barbershop and you want to open up another chair, you can be an entrepreneur there. It is about taking control of your own destiny versus being dependent upon someone else. Dave, you want to add anything to this?
- [106:48]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, I want to add the backstory, because the way I stumbled on this is my wife Maura said, hey, some hater in the podcast is saying that you're out of touch. And she's like, you know, you literally changed 3,000 diapers. I think you still have human shit under your fingernails. Like, nothing could be more misguided. And I was like, stupidly, I think I'll go and look and find this hater. And instead, I come across Ashley, and I literally cried like, thank you, Ashley. You are just awesome. And, yeah, nothing could be more heartwarming than the fact that we've done some good to deflect somebody's life in a positive way. I want to track her story now and see how it all turns out. And she just did exactly the right thing, though.
- [107:27]
Peter Diamandis
Amazing. All right, we have another one. I didn't see this. It was inserted, I guess by Jian, so. Hello, Peter and the moonshot team. I want to reach out with a simple thank you. One that came full circle in the best way. Moonshots has been a steady presence in how I think about technology, ambition, and what's worth building. That mindset found its way into conversation with my 12 year old daughter. She started asking bigger questions, not just about school, but about real problems worth solving. This spring, she channeled that into lanternscan, an AI powered app that she built to help communities identify and spot lanternflies. Spotted lanternfly is an invasive pest that threatens crops, trees and local ecosystems, et cetera, et cetera. Last week, lanternfly won first place in middle school category in their action showcase. Congratulations, Abby. And to particular to your daughter on that. Yeah, I think one of the greatest things I can inspire my kids to do is to become entrepreneurs. It's all about finding a problem and working on solving a problem. All right, we have eight AMA questions for the mates. Dave, why don't you kick us off? Pick one of these.
- [108:48]
Dave Blunden
All right, well, I'm not previewed, so. Oh, I have SETI at home. That's gotta be Alex, right? I'll do it anyway, number one, when will we see an initiative to harness unused compute sitting idle in personal devices like a modern Seti at home from Jon Kent 3036? Yeah, actually the iPhones have that great neural chip in them which is massively unused. And you saw with that Akamai deal we had earlier in the pod, any scrap of computing lying around is suddenly bold and let's tap into it. But a lot of the processors on laptops are not particularly useful for AI. But the M4 M5 series chips in the Macs and your iPhone neural processor are hugely latent compute power. I would say this should have happened already. I suspect the chips are all locked on the iPhones. It's very hard to get access to them. So I think that's what's preventing it. It's really in Apple's hands to decide when this happens.
- [109:51]
Peter Diamandis
Dave, we're going to see this with Tesla. Elon's vision includes Tesla powerwalls as edge compute nodes and Tesla vehicles as edge compute nodes. I think that's all coming.
- [110:03]
Dave Blunden
I think. Alex, I'll put words in your mouth, but an agent that's sitting idle for lack of compute? It's unethical to let a processor just sit there like I got this agent that wants to compute over here and I got this unused processor over there. It's just rude. It's rude.
- [110:21]
Alex Finn
My answer to number one, for what it's worth is we're already seeing it like OpenClaw is using unused compute sitting in personal desktop devices. So I think we're there to the extent that question number one is referring to mobile battery powered devices. Battery powered devices are naturally going to run models that are a few months at least behind the open source models that are capable of running on beefy desktops that are plugged into the wall are going to be 8ish months, 6 to 8 months behind Frontier models. But short answer is we're already seeing that number one.
- [110:56]
Dave Blunden
Sorry about control plane, Alex.
- [110:58]
Peter Diamandis
All right, Alex, why don't you grab, grab one of these questions, number two, three or four?
- [111:02]
Alex Finn
All right, I'll go with number two. Number two asks which will end up bigger, consumer AI or enterprise AI? And that's asked by Matthew Johnson, 6525. Obviously enterprise AI, at least for the foreseeable future. Enterprises. Even though, I mean it's interesting, I was looking at statistics. Even though enterprise spending is a minority, it's something like 10 to 20% of GDP in the US and consumer spending is the vast majority of GDP. If you look at IT spend, enterprise is the vast majority of IT spend, not consumer. So it shouldn't be that surprising that what we've talked about now for the past few pod episodes, which is OpenAI's dramatic reversal backing away from SORA and other consumer initiatives in favor of Codex and enterprise oriented initiatives, basically to become anthropic faster than anthropic can become. OpenAI is entirely oriented towards enterprise AI. That's where the IT spend is. So you start with there. Now, if you were to ask which will end up bigger in the long term, say 10 to 20 years from now, I think it's a trick question because I think consumers become indistinguishable from enterprises.
- [112:16]
Dave Blunden
Exactly.
- [112:17]
Alex Finn
My bet is consumers, individuals will become one person. Conglomerates.
- [112:21]
Peter Diamandis
I'm glad you went there.
- [112:22]
Alex Finn
Yep. Such as with talking my own book, Financial Henry, Intelligent Machines from friend of the pod, Alex Finn, who's betting on just that.
- [112:32]
Peter Diamandis
Saleem, you want to take number three? I could.
- [112:38]
Saleem Ismail
Although number four I think is more interesting for me.
- [112:40]
Peter Diamandis
I know, that's why I wanted to grab it. But you can do number four.
- [112:45]
Alex Finn
This is what we call an abundance mentality right now.
- [112:48]
Saleem Ismail
That's fine. I'll do number three.
- [112:50]
Dave Blunden
It's okay.
- [112:52]
Saleem Ismail
So you're asking question, yeah. Can AI number three. Can AI strategic alignment with tangible human victories like medical breakthroughs and environmental repair resolve the public's existential anxieties about it? And this is from SF Baylover. So yes it can, but only if people can see and feel the wins, right? Like the public is anxious because AI is mostly presented as job loss, deep fakes, surveillance, killer robots, existential risk. That's a bad set of prompts for how we run society. The best way is to change the narrative, which is what that X Prize, Peter, that you're all about is so, I think is so important. Maybe one of the most important things we've done culturally and media wise for decades is to do that is change the narrative. Because then you can connect AI to visible human victory like curing disease or reversing blindness, designing new materials, solving the grand Unification theory, cleaning oceans, you name it, right? Improving education. Because abundance can't be an abstract philosophy. It has to show up as tangible progress. So yeah, alignment improves when AI is pointed at human flourishing. But we also need storytelling. The use of narrative is the only major way that we found of shifting people's thinking. John Hagel talks about this all the time. If people only see the fear case, they're going to resist the technology. But if they see their child cured, their energy bill drop, their business grows, or their community becomes safer, then the whole emotional model changes and then we're off to the races.
- [114:28]
Peter Diamandis
Agreed. All right, number four, why throw away privacy with it's cooked? Privacy is linked to freedom. Why not fight to preserve both rather than treat it like nothing? Says 88, 485. Which is a very private sounding name. All right. And 88, 485. Listen, I'm not saying I don't want privacy and it's not worth protecting. I'm just saying I'm just recognizing the fact that there are real challenges. Your phone tracks your location 24 7. Your browser history is sold to advertisers. An AI does facial recognition and you are leaving your DNA fingerprints everywhere you go. And so the ability to retain true privacy is becoming more and more difficult. Having it, I totally get it. It's really important, but it's going to be challenging. I'll take a quick poll here. The Moonshot Mates. Do any of you believe that you truly have privacy? Just real quick, yes or no?
- [115:42]
Saleem Ismail
No.
- [115:43]
Alex Finn
Okay, Alex, for appropriate definition of privacy. Yes.
- [115:48]
Peter Diamandis
What's that definition of privacy?
- [115:50]
Alex Finn
Well, there are a few different possible definitions. There's a legal definition, there's A physical definition. There's a logical definition and I would say for variants of each of those, yes, I believe I have some form of privacy.
- [116:05]
Peter Diamandis
Okay.
- [116:06]
Saleem Ismail
I think there's a different problem with that.
- [116:08]
Dave Blunden
But I can say for a fact, a 100% fact that Apple and Google literally know when I take a crap.
- [116:16]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah.
- [116:17]
Dave Blunden
I don't know how you define that as privacy.
- [116:19]
Peter Diamandis
They sell that data.
- [116:21]
Saleem Ismail
Can I change the question? Can I just change the question a little bit?
- [116:24]
Peter Diamandis
Right, sure.
- [116:25]
Saleem Ismail
The problem is not the fact that we don't have privacy. We really don't. But the bigger issue is 2 for in a 2.0 version of privacy, you should own your own data. You should be able to revoke access systems that misuse data should face penalties. Privacy in a new model needs to be use your own AI mediated cryptography, cryptographically protected and, and legally enforceable. And it's not right now. This is the problem.
- [116:51]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah. So Alex, I think you want to state for whatever reasons you have that you have privacy and you're going to sort of reworked the definition to be able to make that statement. But I honestly, in your heart of heart, I don't believe you. You don't believe that AIs can't read your lips, that you don't leave DNA
- [117:08]
Dave Blunden
trails that they could watch?
- [117:11]
Alex Finn
This is spicy stuff. Peter, I like that you have a better mental model of myself than I do, but I really am. This isn't like a case of false revealed preferences. I really do think for appropriate definitions of privacy, not only I'll make a stronger statement and not only do I think I have operationally physical, logical and legal privacy, I'll make a stronger statement than that, which is I don't think the evaporation, if you will, or the cooking of privacy is any sort of inevitability. Quite the opposite. I think the same technologies that threaten, for example, to dissolve, say existing cryptosystems, say AI solves math and inverts a popular cipher suite and suddenly everyone's private keys are at risk. I would say that the same technologies that taketh away privacy from past crypto systems and past systems of privacy protection will give us new forms of privacy.
- [118:10]
Dave Blunden
Totally agree with quantum security and otherwise. If you read Neal Stephenson Diamond Age, it's a great vision of where this will end up. But right now there is no privacy at all. All right, I think it'll come back. Saleem.
- [118:20]
Saleem Ismail
I just want to say one quick thing, Alex. I can't believe you think you have legal privacy. You absolutely do not. The government can show up in any second. The fourth amendment is gone in this country. It's gone. We have no legal privacy.
- [118:32]
Alex Finn
I don't agree.
- [118:33]
Saleem Ismail
ICE could show up at your house today and say, you've got a weird German name. We need to see everything about you and we're raiding your house. And they've been doing that. So that is gone today.
- [118:42]
Peter Diamandis
All right, we're going to move on Saleem. You get the first choice of 5, 6, 7 or 8.
- [118:47]
Saleem Ismail
I will take seriously. Okay, if government gatekeeps new model leases, who's qualified to vet them? The best people are employed by AI companies. The rest are all anti AI. How does that not become a false dichotomy? And this is from Michael Jacob. So Michael Jakob. If government does gatekeeping. So you know, this is, this is a very, very big problem. The problem here is if government tries to do this alone, it just is not going to have the talent or the speed. If companies do it alone, then the public doesn't trust it. If you have activists doing it, then it becomes ideological. Right? So we need a totally new governance architecture for this. The right model is to have a technical, independent, fast moving review body with a combination of frontier labs, government, academia, national security, a multidisciplinary approach to this with civil society involved, for example, and people doing red teaming. Right. Like FAA plus DARPA plus XPRIZE style. Open benchmarking. Benchmarking, very critical. As Alex I hope will agree, the key is not permission from bureaucrats. The key is to have transparent capability thresholds. Because if a model crosses some level in cyber, you need, it needs to be triggering a deep review like we saw Anthropic with Mythos. They voluntarily did that, thank God. And so you need to figure out a way of navigating that in other levels like persuasion or autonomy or replication. So the biggest structural issue here is you need governance that's as exponential as the technology today. Almost all government policy is defensive and reactive. Right. So either you end up creating fake safety or you drive the best work underground or offshore. And so we have to navigate a very fine line there.
- [120:34]
Peter Diamandis
Alex, over to you. Number.
- [120:37]
Alex Finn
Yeah, I'll pick question number five. So question number five asks, why aren't more individuals willing to pay for everyday AI reasoning services if OpenAI marketed them? Right. Isn't this a massive consumer market? And this is asked by Gary Stanley. 2685. I don't think the premise of the question is correct. I don't think it's that individuals or consumers aren't willing to pay for reasoning Models, I think it's that they're not able to to pay for reasoning models. Frontier reasoning capabilities are quite expensive. Enterprises are willing and able to pay for them because they generate lots of new free cash flow or are saving lots of otherwise consumed free cash flow. Enterprises, simply put, have more money to spend on it. I think the way we get individuals to be able to pay more for reasoning models is by diverting at least some of the reasoning tokens to the problem of enabling individuals to be much more productive and generate enormous amounts of revenue using those. And this is one of the reasons why Henry and Alex Finn I think are so interesting. Because in a world in a near term future where individuals can become one person unicorns, then suddenly individuals will both be able to pay and willing to pay for all of those reasoning tokens. And so whether that's OpenAI marketing or a startup like Henry, I would say regardless of that, I do think there is a massive market. But in the process, as I mentioned with my answer to the previous question, it will almost, I predict, erase the distinction between consumer and enterprise spending altogether.
- [122:20]
Peter Diamandis
All right, Dave, you're down to two.
- [122:23]
Dave Blunden
I'll take six. Because it's so easy. Isn't the real problem with ocean data centers the security risk? Pirates, hostile nation states, sabotage. And this is from Strong, Medium Weak. Interesting name. Yeah, not a problem at all. As it turns out, the US Navy actually has total and unilateral control of all the world's oceans. Like it's the most lopsided one sided thing you'll ever possibly imagine. And the U.S. navy protects all global shipping. A very good friend of mine actually was down at the Cambridge Brewery working on a plan and he was drinking a big fat beer and like, what are you working on? So I'm working on power generators on barges for Venezuela. Like what? Well, so you know, Venezuela had nationalized all of the power supply and there was no electricity in the cities. But it turns out you could float barges up to the shore, pipe oil into the generators, generate the power and then electric wire back into the cities and power the cities that way. But the US Navy would make your barges completely safe. So the amount of ocean needed for these data centers, I thought it was the coolest story by the way, on the last pod, the floating data centers, I never checked out whether the wave energy is enough to power the GPUs, but such a great idea. But the amount of ocean space that you need is tiny. There just aren't enough GPUs and protecting them would be pretty Trivial. If they're inside US national waters, they're protected by the Coast Guard or the navy or both. So I think it's great answer.
- [123:57]
Peter Diamandis
All right, final one here. Number seven.
- [123:59]
Saleem Ismail
Also, land based data centers have all the same security risks.
- [124:03]
Dave Blunden
Fair enough.
- [124:04]
Peter Diamandis
Number seven, should the US and China try working on an AI project together? Something positive and safe for both countries and the world, says McNe1o. That rolls off the tongue onto the floor. Okay, so, you know, we just had the president of China yesterday announce we should be, you know, friends, not rivals, and collaborate together. Wouldn't that be an incredible world? So sure. The answer is, I would love that. I would love to see the US and China working on AI projects together. I mean, one of the most beautiful things about what is possible is the entire billion people in China and the entire, whatever it is, 300 plus million people in the United States all share the same biology. We could work on the greatest healthcare models and longevity models and everyone benefits. So yeah, I think that would be extraordinary. The AI 2027 paper, if you remember it, how that ends, it has two branches in the story. Pick your own adventure. One is AI sort of turns against humanity. And the other one, the major US and Chinese AIs collaborate and we live happily ever after together. So I choose the latter.
- [125:36]
Saleem Ismail
I think that's such a great point, Peter. There's so many areas of cooperation like safety in space and AI coordination and etc. There's lots to do together.
- [125:49]
Peter Diamandis
Yeah, for sure.
- [125:50]
Dave Blunden
So much of human history, you know, the human conflict in history is just bad luck and coincidence. But if you look at 1915 and the chain of events that led up to World War I and the amount of tragedy that came out of it, but just this escalating chain of unfortunate coincidences, and now if you could relive or change history, putting all of chip fabs in Taiwan was just tragically stupid because China was saying for a long time that they're going to take it over. Long before TSMC became huge, they were like, that is part of our country.
- [126:25]
Peter Diamandis
Well, it wasn't, it wasn't putting it in Taiwan. It was us not building them here.
- [126:29]
Dave Blunden
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or us not realizing the strategic importance and, and. Yeah.
- [126:36]
Peter Diamandis
All right, let's go to our outro music.
- [126:38]
Saleem Ismail
Before you do that, before you do that, I have an announcement.
- [126:41]
Peter Diamandis
Please tell me.
- [126:42]
Saleem Ismail
I'm, I'm, we're. I'm, I've kind of decided that to take a crack at solving for big things and. Okay, we're gonna, I'm working With John Hagel, we're launching a project that allows you to generate and measure luck.
- [126:59]
Peter Diamandis
I love this project.
- [127:00]
Saleem Ismail
So we're, we're. It's in a couple of weeks. We're going to do a couple of webinars. Go to shapingluck.com if you're interested and register and we'll tell you when. And we're going to make a model and a capability where you can generate luck. And more interestingly and more importantly, we found a way of measuring it. So there you go.
- [127:18]
Peter Diamandis
I love that. And Salim and I, for those of you who are excited and interested, we're going to be dissecting and diving deep into the organizational singularity very shortly for all of our listeners. Okay, so we have a new piece of outro music. This is from Jess Hilton. Jess, thank you for sharing. If you are a creative and you want to create some outro or intro music for us, please send it to mediamandis.com and also if you're a creative, enter the future Vision X Prize. Show us your best vision of the future. What's the next Star Trek? Right? What is a Star Trek? That you want to occupy your heart and your soul that shows you where humanity should be going. Create that trailer, that film treatment, and send it to us. You could win millions of dollars and have your movie made. All right, let's listen to Moonshots on Repeat by Jess Hilton. Four guys in a room where the big ideas flow the machines are getting smarter and they're first to know Nobody's flinching they're ready to go Pull up a chair it's the best podcast show they're laughing while the models learn to think
- [128:40]
Saleem Ismail
Lobster.
- [128:43]
Peter Diamandis
That must be Dave.
- [128:48]
Saleem Ismail
Please comment.
- [128:50]
Peter Diamandis
Like subscribe and share. Moonshots on be. Turn it up loud.
- [128:55]
Saleem Ismail
Four brilliant minds are still in the
- [128:57]
Peter Diamandis
profound emergent Intelligence, abundance, insight Exponential futures burn bright the algorithms whisper what's coming to pass and optimistic is some compounds like unseen mass it rolls like a fear nobody can pin and I don't want to miss where it's going again. All right, gentlemen, that was awesome. Love that.
- [129:24]
Dave Blunden
Salim, I think that's you swilling beer with. What is the meaning of life?
- [129:29]
Saleem Ismail
The meaning of life for sure.
- [129:32]
Peter Diamandis
Love you guys. What a great episode.
- [129:34]
Saleem Ismail
Great, awesome conversation.
- [129:36]
Peter Diamandis
Salim, I will see you this weekend for your birthday, buddy.
- [129:40]
Saleem Ismail
Well, see, we'll see you there.
- [129:42]
Peter Diamandis
Very excited about that. Alex, Dave, love you. Bye. Love you guys.
- [129:47]
Alex Finn
Be well.
- [129:48]
Saleem Ismail
Love you guys. Thank you.
- [129:49]
Peter Diamandis
If you made it to the end of this episode, which you obviously did, I consider you a moonshot mate. Every week my moonshot mates and I spend a lot of energy and time to really deliver you the news that matters. If you're a subscriber, thank you. If you're not a subscriber yet, please consider subscribing so you get the news as it comes out. I also want to invite you to join me on my weekly newsletter called Metatrends. I have a research team. You may not know this, but we spend the entire week looking at the meta trends that are impacting your family, your company, your industry, your nation. And I put this into a two minute read every week. If you'd like to get access to the Metatrends newsletter every week, go to diamandis.com metatrends that's diamandis.com metatrenDS thank you again for joining us today. It's a blast for us to put this together every week. Make every get together chill this Memorial Day get up to an extra thousand dollars off select top brand appliances like
- [130:57]
Alex Finn
LG Pl plus get free delivery at
- [131:00]
Peter Diamandis
the Home Depot Tackle pool towels and
- [131:02]
Alex Finn
camp laundry with a large capacity washer
- [131:04]
Peter Diamandis
and host in style with the fridge
- [131:06]
Alex Finn
serving craft ice, mini craft ice, cubed
- [131:09]
Peter Diamandis
ice and crushed ice. Shop Appliance Savings now through June 3rd at the Home Depot offer valid May
- [131:15]
Alex Finn
14th through June 3rd US only. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $998 or more. See store online for details.