The Heaven’s Gate Tragedy

Summary

Morbid Podcast

Episode: The Heaven’s Gate Tragedy

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart

Original Air Date: January 22, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode, Ash and Alaina take a deep dive into the tragic history of the Heaven’s Gate cult, exploring its origins, its enigmatic leaders, the powerful psychology that drove its followers, and the infamous 1997 mass suicide that shocked the world. Through detailed storytelling blended with their signature wit and empathy, the hosts highlight how ordinary people were drawn into an extraordinary tragedy while reflecting on cult dynamics, vulnerability, and the search for meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Episode Intro & Tone-Setting

• After a lively and comedic catch-up, the hosts tease the change in mood: “All right, I’m gonna talk about something…that is also nostalgic. No, no. It might be.” (Ash, 09:26)
• Transition from everyday life (“wellness with Elena and Ash”) to the dark, fascinating world of cults.
  (~09:00–10:00)

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2. Summary of the Heaven’s Gate Incident

• Heaven’s Gate Overview: Blend of Christianity, science fiction, and New Age beliefs led by Marshall Applewhite (“Father Doe”).
  • “Their beliefs were kind of a blend of Christianity, science fiction and like New Age practices. But they were bonkers.” (Ash, 10:15)
• Cult Membership: Members ranged from their mid-20s to early 70s, all yearning for escape and transformation.
  (10:30–11:00)
• The Final Act: Applewhite convinced members to “shed their containers” (bodies) in order to ascend to a higher existence, hitching a ride on an alien spacecraft supposedly trailing the Hale-Bopp comet.
  • “They left the earth bound for a better life.” (Ash, 13:08)
• Discovery: Richard Ford/Rio d’Angelo (one of the few not participating) received a letter and videotapes announcing the mass departure. He discovered the deceased members in their Rancho Santa Fe mansion: 39 bodies, peaceful, identically dressed, covered with purple shrouds, “Heaven’s Gate Away Team” patches, $5 bills and rolls of quarters in pockets, suitcases packed at the foot of beds.
  (11:48–15:24)

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3. Police Investigation and Immediate Aftermath

• Police at first sent only two deputies, expecting a wellness check. Upon arrival, the overwhelming odor forced them out; backup and health precautions followed.
• Medical examiner confirmed deaths caused by phenobarbital and vodka overdoses, facilitated in three waves over three days. Some members were also surgically castrated—a detail that shocked both hosts.
  • Notably, “the castrations were still, obviously, like, one of the more confounding aspects of the case.” (Ash, 22:18)
• House Details: No religious iconography found—just computers everywhere; the group funded itself via a professional web development business (“Higher Source”).
  (16:56–24:08)

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4. Community Reactions

• Realtors and prospective buyers found the group’s presence “Android-like... very on the nose.” (Elena, 27:23)
• Neighbors, however, described them as quiet, kind, and “the nicest, sweetest guys you could ever meet.” (Ash, 28:15)
• Tragedy emphasized not by menace, but terrible sadness: “Because it's like people who...were lost, obviously. And obviously looking for something and very much done with whatever they had here.” (Elena, 28:54)

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5. Deep Dive: Marshall Applewhite’s Life & Psychology

• Early Years: Religious upbringing as son of a Presbyterian minister; studied philosophy, music; charismatic, extroverted, popular.
  (30:29–32:22)
• Personal Struggles: Struggles with sexuality, leading to marital strife, multiple job losses due to affairs with male students, and intensifying mental health issues.
• Family and colleagues noticed a marked change: “He started acting strangely, talking about UFOs and preaching this strange religion.” (Elena, recounting Mama Swayze, 36:38)
• The “Nurse” (Bonnie Nettles): Allegedly affirmed his sense of cosmic specialness—“She did convince him that he was special and that God had a plan for him.” (Ash, 39:07)
• Formation of an intense, asexual partnership with Bonnie, blending their respective cravings for meaning and spirituality.
  (41:40–45:11)

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6. The Evolution of Heaven’s Gate

• Tried and failed multiple ventures: bookstore, “The NO Place,” traveling spiritual speakers.
• Group name, belief system, and even the founders’ names (“the two”, “Bo and Peep”, “Tea and Doe”) changed repeatedly—“the group demonstrated flexibility.” (Ash quoting historian Benjamin Zeller, 41:23)
• Adoption of science fiction concepts and increasing apocalypticism tied to biblical Revelations and aliens.
  (46:43–52:41)
• Strict community rules: cut off from families, dictated eating, clothing, forbidden sexual relationships.
  • “That’s the red flag. Yeah, that’s it right there.” (Elena, 59:54)

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7. Decline and Tragic Climax

• Shift from public recruiting to closed circles after negative media attention and dwindling numbers.
• Bonnie’s death in 1985 created a crisis, after which Applewhite’s focus and rigidity increased.
• Final move to Rancho Santa Fe, adoption of professional web services, and the decision to die collectively as the Hale-Bopp comet neared, believing their souls would board an alien craft.
• After the deaths, at least two more ex-members died by suicide, devastated by the loss of their community.
• Of 42 who moved to California, only Richard Ford survived. (62:48–64:29)

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8. Reflections on Motivation, Vulnerability, and Meaning

• Members’ actions seen not as death, but “graduation to the next level.” (Ash quoting Zeller, 65:10)
• “It’s just too easy to dismiss them as nuts… Members joined not because of some sort of magical, psychological or spiritual truth that the leaders conjured, but because they were looking for something and believed they found it in Heaven’s Gate.” (Ash quoting Zeller, 66:34)
• Survivors struggled to reintegrate: “I’m a regular guy. I’m trying to be more of myself and a better person in every way that I can.” (Richard Ford, 67:09)
• Empathy for followers, criticism of predatory leaders and the systems that fail the vulnerable. (64:58–68:00)

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9. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the tragedy of the “container” metaphor:

  • Ash (13:08): “Shed my container is…No, I hate it. That’s crazy.”

• Chilling detail:

  • Ash (18:07): “In the pockets of each. For some reason, there’s so many chilling details about this. But for some reason, I don’t know why, this is the thing that really gets me… every person's pocket, they found a five dollar bill in a roll of quarters.”

• On cult flexibility:

  • “These many changes make Heaven’s Gate more difficult to characterize, but they actually reveal something very important—the group demonstrated flexibility.” (Benjamin Zeller, 41:23)

• Cautionary empathy:

  • Elena (28:54): “These people were lost…to find it with this kind of situation and then have somebody tell them…‘I can get you somewhere that’s going to be amazing and away from all these problems’…all they’re doing is manipulating possible…It’s very sad.”

• On the sadness of the story:

  • Ash (69:01): “It is just sad. It’s just like literally like the somebody who was involved with them just said I was looking for answers and purpose in my life. And you know, that's all anybody else that was involved in this was looking for—purpose and answers and exactly like something better.”

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10. Host Insights and Pop Culture Parallels

• Connections drawn to Parks and Rec’s “Reasonableists,” True Blood’s Amy, and even Boy Meets World’s cult episode, emphasizing how cult themes pervade culture and fascination.
• Expressed reluctance to cover Jonestown due to its extreme darkness, contrasting the surreal “of the time” feeling around Heaven’s Gate.

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11. Ending on a Lighter Note

• Cute animal fun fact: “The bumblebee bat is the world’s smallest flying mammal…between 0.05 and 0.07 ounces.” (Ash, 69:48)
  (68:34–70:35)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [09:29] – The turn to today’s main topic: Heaven’s Gate
• [10:36] – Early cult history & purpose of the group
• [13:08] – “Shedding their containers” and the mail to Richard Ford
• [14:32] – Discovery of the bodies, investigation
• [17:44] – The chilling room: visuals of the scene
• [22:03] – Revelation about castrations, cult beliefs and sadness
• [27:23] – Neighbors & weird realtor experiences
• [30:29] – Marshall Applewhite's formative years
• [36:38] – Behavior shift & role of Bonnie Nettles
• [41:23] – Historian’s commentary on cult flexibility
• [51:04] – “The Two” become “Bo and Peep” and drift to sci-fi
• [59:54] – Strict rules, isolation, further control
• [62:48] – Web businesses, the final phase
• [65:10] – Graduation, member perspectives
• [67:09] – Richard Ford’s life post-cult, survivor insight
• [68:34] – Closing lighthearted fact about bumblebee bats

---

Overall Tone & Takeaways

Ash and Alaina balance research-heavy narration with their empathetic, frank, and often wry commentary—never mocking the dead but highlighting the human vulnerability behind cult dynamics. The story of Heaven’s Gate emerges as one not simply of “brainwashing,” but of desperate searching—for community, meaning, and transcendence—gone terribly awry in the hands of charismatic, ultimately deeply flawed leaders.

Final Thought:
“Don’t tell other people how to live their lives…Except cult: don’t join one. Cult—bad. Bumblebee bat—good.” (Ash & Elena, 70:51)

Transcript

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[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena and this is Mulben.

[Elena]

Mo. Let's go.

[Ash]

Do you remember when I was really vulnerable last week and I told you I did a foot mask?

[Elena]

Oh, yes.

[Ash]

And then I said I was like afraid that my feet weren't going to peel, but then I was afraid that they were going to peel. I'm going to be really vulnerable again. Why are my feet still peeling?

[Elena]

Yeah, they're going to go for a while. I also did one a few days ago because you inspired me.

[Ash]

I inspired you? Oh, my God. I'm an influencer.

[Elena]

And mine have also started and it's great.

[Ash]

Mikey turned to Debbie Peel Your feet. Peel them off right now. Peel your feet. It's so good. It is.

[Elena]

It's the best.

[Ash]

My feet are peeling so much that I almost. God, this is horrible. Sorry for eating. But like, I'm like. Do I do one again to like soften the parts that like, aren't peeling as easily?

[Elena]

Probably not. I would.

[Ash]

I was met with a series of head shakes from across the room.

[Elena]

Yeah, you don't want to overdo. You always go hard. You gotta pull this one back.

[Ash]

One thing about me. One thing about me is that I go hard.

[Elena]

Yeah. You don't want to like start giving your feet problems.

[Ash]

That would suck, you know. Well, yeah. It's fun though. Do it.

[Elena]

It is. I suggest you do it.

[Ash]

Do it. You'll. You'll feel brand new.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

What's up with you, Red?

[Elena]

What's up with me? You can pre order my book the Butcher Legacy.

[Ash]

Let's go.

[Elena]

Coming out August 11th. And you can pre order it on.

[Ash]

Butcherlegacy.Com or wherever books are sold.

[Elena]

Exactly. You can get it anywhere.

[Ash]

I'm excited. I'm actually pre order it. I'm gonna start the series from the top. Hell yeah.

[Elena]

Start it from the top.

[Ash]

Because I haven't read.

[Elena]

Well, she. I should say she's read them.

[Ash]

Yeah. You know, I'm imagine you're like, I'm.

[Elena]

Gonna start reading them. You're like.

[Ash]

I'm like, I've actually just decided you're doing really good at this whole thing so I should give it a shot. Read all of them. And I was actually just about to say I'm restarting them to get ready for the third one because I have the third one. Haha. Boo.

[Elena]

Boo.

[Ash]

But I haven't read Butcher in the Ren in a long. I don't even know how many years because it was so long ago. At this point. You just keep writing books. It's nuts.

[Elena]

Writing books.

[Ash]

I'm restarting and I'm going to read them back to back to back.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I'm really excited. I love that the next two are thickies.

[Elena]

I'm excited. They are exponentially thicker.

[Ash]

It's funny because this book is released, but I was with you yesterday and I saw you typing something.

[Elena]

I was typing something.

[Ash]

I saw you typing something.

[Elena]

I was typing a little something. What are you typing? I don't know. Maybe just a little something. Oh my God. Maybe. I don't know.

[Ash]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

Once one's done.

[Ash]

Once one's done, you just type something else.

[Elena]

Just start. Maybe something's brewing. I don't know.

[Ash]

Type until you die.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

That's what everybody wants to know.

[Elena]

That's my motto.

[Ash]

Type until you die.

[Elena]

I will. Let's go. So somebody messaged me and said they liked the little how to make life feel a little less shitty how it is right now and a little more, like, romanticized or slowed down or just give you, like, little pockets. Of course we, you know, one person was like, glad you're having a great year. Like, go fuck yourself. And I was like, that's what you got from that? Okay, you won't be romanticizing your mom.

[Ash]

We're not romanticizing anything because that's clearly Romanticize your Instagram comments.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

That's clearly the romanticize my DMs.

[Elena]

But for the most part, you guys have been digging it, which is awesome because I'm telling you, it helps a little.

[Ash]

It helps a little.

[Elena]

It helps take a little bit of the edge off of all the fuck shit that is happening, because it is complete shit. Fuck ice. But one thing I said I did was I watched center stage at like 5:30 in the morning the other morning, and it really set me up for.

[Ash]

A pretty fucking great day. So what did you watch the next day?

[Elena]

Well, and then my. My little watch list was like, oh, girl, you like center stage at 5:30 in the morning? And I said, yeah, I do. And it said, here's some other little gems for you. And of course, I mentioned this early. Threw me. Drive me crazy. Oh. And I said, banger. All right, let's give that a shot, guys.

[Ash]

Banger movie.

[Elena]

That movie.

[Ash]

I haven't seen that movie in a long time.

[Elena]

A true underrated banger. It's very of the time. I need you to know that right now. Going in.

[Ash]

Super.

[Elena]

But that's just where we are, you know? It is. I'm sure everything is of the time. Yeah. And. But Drive Me Crazy was great. That was the other. It took me like, two mornings to get that through that one.

[Ash]

Is Melissa Joan Hart in that? Yeah, of course she is.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she's great. Y. And the next one I watched after that, that I started watching 10 things I hate about you. Yeah.

[Ash]

10 things I hate the scene where they're in the bleachers and it's.

[Elena]

Ruin me. Heath Ledger forever.

[Ash]

No. I'll cry right now. I'll sob on this podcast.

[Elena]

He is just a king movie. And the next one I have on my list that I'm gonna go to after finishing 10 things I hate about you is Can't Hardly. Wait. Jennifer L. Hewitt.

[Ash]

What happens?

[Elena]

Big party.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Elena]

After graduation. Carlisle from Twilight is in it. What? Yeah.

[Ash]

He plays the jock, Seth Green. And kn.

[Elena]

He plays a wild problem.

[Ash]

Certainly. And I think that's why I was like, I remember that movie.

[Elena]

Wait a minute.

[Ash]

Stay with me.

[Elena]

Of the time. So I know my watch list here is. It's like, giving me a cue of like, oh, you like this? Like you're in that era. Yes. I'm telling you, the nostalgia in the morning of these movies when I just am, like, doing things and I just put them on. Yeah. Don't have to sit down and, like, really, like, engross yourself in them. It's. It's working.

[Ash]

I love it.

[Elena]

It's making me feel good.

[Ash]

That's great.

[Elena]

You know, good for you. I suggest it.

[Ash]

Perfect.

[Elena]

I highly suggest it.

[Ash]

I'm just starting my morning. I'm on Chinese medicine TikTok.

[Elena]

I had no idea where you were going.

[Ash]

I saw your face and you were like, what are you saying?

[Elena]

I thought at first you were saying my mornings. Like, I'm starting with Chinese. Like, I thought you were gonna be like, chinese food.

[Ash]

And I was like, this is different. That would be. I wish I could spend my mornings with Chinese food.

[Elena]

I was like, wow.

[Ash]

No, I'm on Chinese TikTok. Chinese medicine tik. And they're giving you all these, like, little, like, bullet points of advice. And you should start your morning with hot water or something hot to, like, get your belly settled.

[Elena]

Oh, I think I have seen that.

[Ash]

Shit will change your life. Oh, I'm having a little hot water with lemon. I don't know. I rolled up here with my hot tea.

[Elena]

Oh, good.

[Ash]

First I had a hot water lemon, then I had a hot tea. Look at that, the hot Beverginos.

[Elena]

You know, it's the little things. It is again, it's the little things.

[Ash]

And you'll like this. I'm keeping my feet warm. Oh, yeah. As you should not walk around the house barefoot. According to Chinese medicine, never have been, never will be, always did, Won't again.

[Elena]

Look at these.

[Ash]

Look at these.

[Elena]

I ordered these socks, these little ditties.

[Ash]

They're grippy so I don't fall on my butt. Yeah.

[Elena]

I'm saying it's good.

[Ash]

So that's wellness with Elena and Ash.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So crazy smoothies, fuzzy socks and hot Beverginos.

[Elena]

If I can. If I come up with anything else little that seems to work and make me feel good, I'll let you guys know because we're not gatekeeping. Happiness over here.

[Ash]

Maybe I'll start eating Chinese food in the morning. Yeah, I'll let you know if it works.

[Elena]

Exactly. We'll share it.

[Ash]

I like your movie recommendations though. So please continue watching ridiculous movies, nostalgic movies about them.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

All right, I'm gonna talk about something.

[Elena]

That is also nostalgic. No, no. It might be.

[Ash]

Maybe to you. Yeah, I wasn't alive. No, I was, I was.

[Elena]

I remember when this happened.

[Ash]

Do you really? I mean it was probably a pretty big deal. We're gonna be talking about having skates and if you were alive and functioning.

[Elena]

This will be unlike me.

[Ash]

It will be nostalgic for you, I suppose. I don't know if you'll long for this time, but no, I don't. I don't know your life. So let's talk about it. In mid March 1997, 43 year old Richard Ford finally spoke out against Father Doe, who was known to the rest of the world as 65 year old Marshall Applewhite. For over 20 years, he had been slowly building a following as the leader of Heaven's Gate, which was this religious cult. Their beliefs were kind of a blend of Christianity, science fiction and like New age practices. But they were bonkers.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

By the mid-1990s, Marshall Applewhite had attracted over 40 men and women who were basically just fed up with their day to day lives. Fed up with society. Angels in the group actually ranged all the way from people in their mid-20s to their early 70s.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So this was like a vast range of people. They all hoped that his predictions to finding a better life on another planet would come true. Period.

[Elena]

Period.

[Ash]

Period. According to Marshall Applewhite, their escape would be made in an alien spacecraft that was following closely behind the Hale Bop Comet which was expected to pass the Earth at the end of March.

[Elena]

I remember this well.

[Ash]

It was like a huge thing. It was a Hail Bot comet. Nuts. Yeah, I don't recall. Yeah, I don't recall.

[Elena]

We went out on the front lawn and we waited for it.

[Ash]

Did you? Yeah, I think I was still in Hawaii at that point. So I wasn't with you. Unfortunately you were not with us. I wish I had that experience with you. I'm bummed. Pretty fun. But the thing was, in order to catch their ride to the higher plane on the Hale Bop Comet, the members of Heaven's Gate would need to slip the bonds of their earthly bodies prior to the comet's arrival. So they had to figure that whole thing out. Yeah, of course now Richard Ford who was known to the rest of the group as. I think it's Neody or Rio d'. Angelo. They got, like, different names when they went into the.

[Elena]

Oh, okay. He.

[Ash]

Richard had been with Heaven's Gate for a while, and up to the point that he spoke out, everybody saw him as a very firm believer in this ideology and the mythology that Applewhite had built over the years. But when it came time to enact the final plan to ascend to this new celestial form, he was one of a small number who just wasn't ready to take that step, because that step was literally ending your life.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But, like, to move on to the next one.

[Elena]

With complete trust.

[Ash]

With complete and utter trust. It's like in the circle, in the craft.

[Elena]

Yes, with perfect love and perfect trust.

[Ash]

Exactly. So his reluctance obviously caused a rift between him and a cult leader. And by mid March, Richard decided that he was gonna leave the group. But he let them know that he cared about them a lot, and he wanted to, you know, keep in touch as long as they could. And he wasn't gonna intervene on their plans in any way.

[Elena]

He was being a real one. Yeah.

[Ash]

He was like, I love you guys and, like, I'm not gonna stop you, but, like, I. I don't want you to do this.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, he was like, this is not my scene.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But you know what? I won't mess it up for you.

[Ash]

He lived and he let live.

[Elena]

He did. He didn't yuck other people's yums.

[Ash]

He didn't. No matter how nutso their yums were.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

So Richard Ford was at home on the afternoon of March 25th when the mail arrived. And among the letters was a package that included a letter and two videotape statements from the Heaven's Gate members informing him that they, quote, shed their containers that me up and left the earth bound for a better life.

[Elena]

Shed My container is.

[Ash]

No, I hate it. That's crazy. We recorded an episode once, and I still feel this way. I think you were talking a lot about the brain, or.

[Elena]

I was.

[Ash]

And I was like, I don't like talking about my brain too much because I can feel. Container.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I'm just a container.

[Elena]

I mean, the truth of the matter is. Yes.

[Ash]

No, I know. No, I know. But I.

[Elena]

Like, we're just a container for our inner, like, insides.

[Ash]

Shut up. I can't.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

I mean, that isn't like, shut up.

[Elena]

Like, shut up.

[Ash]

Not like, stop talking. Just like, shut up.

[Elena]

Yeah, but your skin itself is an.

[Ash]

Organ, so that Is if you really.

[Elena]

Look at it that way, though, we're not really a container. True. Because we're one giant organ.

[Ash]

But I think he. I don't even think he was talking about organs. I think he was talking more about, like, souls.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, I was talking about it like we're containers for our organs.

[Ash]

We are containers for our organs, but also kind of not really. Yeah. When you think about the skin being an organ, that will ruin your life. So, yeah, they were shedding their containers. They let Richard know, and Richard obviously knew what that meant, but he didn't know exactly what to about it. So the next day, he just told his boss, Nick, Matt Zorkus, about the tapes. And they both decided to drive the two hours to the Heavens Gate compound in Rancho Santa Fe to be like, did they do this?

[Elena]

Like, what's going on here?

[Ash]

So when they got to the house, Nick was like, I'm going to wait in the car, buddy. You can check that out.

[Elena]

He's like, you seem to know about this, so I'm just going to stay here.

[Ash]

He said, I'll fly. You do everything else. So Richard made his way around to the side of the house, and the door was unlocked. He was armed with a video camera. He entered the house and he found pretty much exactly what he had. All 39 remaining members of Heaven's Gate dead from intentional overdoses. Their bodies, if you know the story, you know, were all just laid out on mattresses and covered with purple shrouds. He spent about 10 minutes in the house just doing his best to document the scene, but never touching anything. But unfortunately, by the time they got there, everybody inside had been dead for multiple days at that point. And decomposition was well underway because, mind you, even anywhere like that would have been fucking gnarly. This is in California, so it's hot and putrid.

[Elena]

How did he even walk in there?

[Ash]

I don't know. But it didn't take long for him to get forced out of the house, basically by the smell of everything, just to be blunt. So since he'd already explained to his boss what he thought had happened, there was really no need for him to explain what he had just walked into. So he just got back in the car and said, they did it.

[Elena]

Oh, that is so chilling.

[Ash]

It's haunting. So Nick, his boss, was shocked, but he was like, I think we need to call the police now.

[Elena]

So fair.

[Angie Hicks]

Hello.

[Elena]

Such a fair statement.

[Ash]

Super fair. Good person in a leadership role. Love to see him.

[Elena]

It's good you had your boss with you that was like, we should call the police. Yeah.

[Ash]

He said, here's what we do when things like this happen. So once they got back to Beverly Hills, Richard called with an Anonymous tip to 911, basically saying that he needed to report this tip. And when the dispatcher was like, okay, what's this regarding? He said, this is regarding a mass suicide and I can give you the address. Oh, like, holy shit.

[Elena]

Dispatcher was probably like, what? Yeah.

[Ash]

So assuming it was only going to be a well being check, the San Diego County Sheriff's Office only dispatched two officers to the address.

[Elena]

It's always good to underreact.

[Ash]

You know, we tell so many cases where they're just like, ah, it's probably it, we'll check it in four days. Or like we'll send one and a half people.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's like underreact.

[Ash]

I don't know about that.

[Elena]

That's what I always say.

[Ash]

So they sent them to the house, which the Heaven's Gate like members, by the way, referred to as the monastery. So it's like, it's just so, it's so spooky. It's so spooky.

[Elena]

It's very spooky.

[Ash]

It's, it's metal and it's such, it's.

[Elena]

It'S very much an amalgamation of so many different ideologies. Like the monastery. It's like that, that it's just so many different things put together.

[Ash]

Like, we'll get a little more into it and like what the belief started as, what they evolved into, it's all over the place. But so they got to the monastery and the deputies again found the side door unlocked just like Richard had. And inside they were immediately hit with a, quote, pungent odor that basically forced them right back out of the house. They didn't even get to be in there as long as Richard was. The scene inside the house was unlike anything either of them had ever seen before. When they went back in, in the first room they entered, they discovered the bodies of 10 men all laid out on metal framed beds in a row. One of the officers said they looked so peaceful that they almost appeared to be sleeping.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ash]

Each body was dressed in black pants, black Nike sneakers, and the head and upper torso of each, like I said, was covered in the purple shroud on their arms. There was a custom patch that read Heaven's Gateway Team, which was a reference to like the teams on Star Trek. Yeah, the planetary exploration people.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In the pockets of each. For some reason there's so many chilling details about this. But for some reason, I don't know why, this is the thing that really gets me. And every person's pocket, they found a five dollar bill in a roll of quarters. And at the foot of each bed or cot, whatever had you, there was a suitcase or a bag fully packed.

[Elena]

Oh. Because they fully believed that they were going.

[Ash]

Yeah. And they literally had their fare in their pocket.

[Elena]

Sad.

[Ash]

I think that's what gets me so much, is just how fucking sad that is. So the two responding officers did their best to just conduct a search of the crime scene, but the home was massive and the conditions inside were unbearable pretty quickly. So they had to head back to their vehicle again and just wait for additional resources. Dan Christ later told a reporter from the LA Times they lost count at 10, referring to the responding officer's attempt to determine how many victims were actually inside. When backup finally did get there a little bit later, the two officers were sent to the hospital because, like, the two original officers, because everybody was so concerned that these deaths could have been caused by some kind of exposure to like a toxic gas or something that they needed to be checked out.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's a valid theory.

[Ash]

Yeah. So it didn't take long for the medical examiner, Dr. Brian Blackburn, to confirm the cause of death and dispel any rumors of toxic gas, I guess. Luckily.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I don't even, you know. A few days after the bodies were discovered, he reported that all 39 individuals discovered in the house, which was 21 women and 18 men, they had all died from ingesting a mix of phenobarbital and vodka. Holy. Investigators also found several plastic bags and elastic bands that were scattered around the house. So as far as the medical examiner could tell, it seemed like they. The members had died in three waves over the course of three days.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

What the.

[Ash]

So this wasn't. I don't think I've ever heard that before, actually.

[Elena]

No, I haven't either, actually.

[Ash]

I thought it was just like everybody took it laid down like Jonestown.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, this was over the course of three days, and it started on March 22nd.

[Elena]

So they watched people die. They helped people and helped people and then did it. Yeah.

[Ash]

So it was later learned that when one among the first wave died, one of the living members removed the bag from around their head, positioned the body neatly on the bed, placed the purple cloth over their face. And they realized this because only two of the bodies were discovered without the purple shroud across the face, because they were the last who was gonna do it.

[Elena]

So they were put. They had, like, plastic bags on their head, like they were suffocating as well.

[Ash]

Some of them did. I think it was just to ensure that. That if what they took didn't take effect, that they would still make it on their trip.

[Elena]

That's even. Whoa.

[Ash]

And they, like, people were just ensuring this for each other for three days.

[Elena]

Just being in that house with helping people die. Yeah.

[Ash]

And, like, the last people were just. Two waves of people had already died and were just laying right there next to them.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. Yeah, that's.

[Ash]

Now, according to the medical examiner, there was no sign of violence, no sign of resistance. But eight of the 18 men, including Marshall Applewhite, who, again, was the head of this all, had been castrated at some point. Long before their deaths, actually.

[Elena]

Oh, as, like, part of this whole thing.

[Ash]

Yeah. It had to have been part of the beliefs. He said this is not something they did themselves, and added that it also had not been done recently. So I don't know if that was also something that they helped each other with or if they had some kind of surgery.

[Elena]

The way that I remember hearing about this is that it was a surgical castration. Yeah.

[Ash]

It makes sense because, like he said, like, they didn't do this themselves, so they opted to have that done. So in the days that followed, investigators learned that the members of Heaven's Gate believed that, quote, sexual organs were unneeded in the next world and could actually be a hindrance to gaining admission into that world.

[Elena]

Oh, see, because I was. Before that second part, I was like, well, you know, just carry them in. Like an appendix. You don't necessarily need it, but, you know, you can always. But I guess if it's going to.

[Ash]

Be a problem getting in, it would be a hindrance. You don't even need to carry it with you.

[Elena]

You don't want to.

[Ash]

So regardless of their philosophy, the castrations were still, obviously, like, one of the more confounding aspects of the case.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Dr. Blackburn said it's not something a legitimate physician would do on an individual person upon request.

[Elena]

That was going to be my next thing was like, what doctor did this?

[Ash]

I don't know.

[Elena]

Was it a doctor? Yes.

[Ash]

I have no idea.

[Elena]

Or someone else who surgically did it without surgical experience.

[Ash]

Right. Or maybe they had surgical. Surgical experience at one point.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because the fact that the doctor was like, it didn't look like they did this. Them. Like it wasn't.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like they didn't do it themselves.

[Ash]

You know, looked professional.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So while the medical examiner's office worked day and night to process all of these bodies because this is so many. 39 bodies. The San Diego Sheriff's Department started processing the scene inside the house. It was clear that the deaths were obviously part of some kind of religious ritual. But as they made their way through the house, they couldn't help but notice that there was a pretty big absence of anything even resembling religious material or symbolism in any way. Instead, the house was mostly full of computers and other electronics. And it turned out that while the main, the group's main focus was on their religious beliefs and, you know, moving on to this next world or planet, they actually spent most of their time on their company, which was called Higher Source Contract Enterprises, and that was a web development company that they operated to fund Heaven's Gate. Oh, so Higher Source had been founded and registered two years earlier in Arizona, where they had lived before they moved to California. And as far as investigators could tell, almost all of the members of Heaven's Gate were experienced in it or web design in some way.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

Yeah. According to one also, like, that's like.

[Elena]

A well educated group. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

According to one Higher Source client, they were very professional. We got more for $1,000 than other companies who paid a lot more.

[Elena]

It's very interesting.

[Ash]

It is like, like you said, these were smart people.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

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[Ash]

So while the inside of the house didn't provide a ton of information about the group or what would have motivated them to take their own lives, fortunately, the neighbors proved to be a little bit more insightful. The owner of the home, Sam. I hope I don't mess this up. I looked it up. Coucho Couches Fahani. He had purchased the house in 1994 and he wanted to flip it for a profit. But after a few years passed without any buyer for this massive home, he was like, you know what? I'll just rent it out. And Heaven's Gate ended up renting out the property, and they moved in in October of that year. Since then, several realtors had shown or tried to show the property, but all the prospective buyers were kind of put off by the members of Heaven's Gate.

[Elena]

Yeah, I mean, when you are. Are looking at a place and a cult lives there, weird vibes, it's at least gonna make you think.

[Ash]

I would say, you know what? I'm gonna buy some sage, probably.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, the vibes may be a little off.

[Ash]

Get a few crystals. Get a little new agey myself.

[Elena]

There you go. You know, just a different kind.

[Ash]

Just different kind, you know, One realtor said, I tried to show the home to buyers, but there was always some sort of religion meeting going on.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

And then other.

[Elena]

That would send me away.

[Ash]

Yeah. I'd be like, bye. Other realtors had, like, similarly strange interactions with the members. Local agent Bob Dyson said there were computers everywhere. There were men and women, all had crew cuts, including the women. They were very Android. Like, they referred to each other as brother and sister.

[Elena]

Yeah. No way.

[Ash]

It was just very like. It almost sounds like a cartoon. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like a futuristic cartoon.

[Elena]

It sounds like how somebody would write a cult.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

You know, like a fictional culture, very on the nose. And that would definitely send me past. I'd be like, you know what you do you.

[Ash]

Yeah, here. But I don't want this property.

[Elena]

I don't think I'm going to be living here.

[Ash]

I don't think I want the energy that comes with this. So the realtors definitely thought they were strange, and so did the potential home buyers. But the neighbors, who had a little more like, interactions with them, had positive memories of the group.

[Elena]

Oh, that's nice.

[Ash]

Next door neighbor Shelby Strong told a reporter they could not have been quieter, nicer neighbors.

[Elena]

Well, that's just great.

[Ash]

And her husband Bill said they certainly didn't Disturb any of the neighbors here. There was nothing to object to.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So it's nice that they weren't, like, sacrificing any animals.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, a real situation. It really is a thing. Like, they're just doing their thing. Yeah.

[Ash]

And it sounds like their neighbors left them.

[Elena]

Seemed like it. Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, so another man who owned a car wash in the area, he had gotten to know a few of the members in the months leading up to their deaths, and he described them as very loving and the nicest, sweetest guys you could ever meet.

[Elena]

Well, that just makes me sad.

[Ash]

It's super sad. This whole thing is very sad. I think, like, the belief system that they really thought they weren't. They weren't ending their lives, they were beginning the line in their minds.

[Elena]

And it's like cults are always really sad. Like, these kind of cults, especially when they end like this, it's like. Because it's like people who. Like, these people were lost, like, obviously. And obviously looking for something and very.

[Ash]

Much done with whatever they had here. Yeah.

[Elena]

And then, like, to find it with this kind of situation and then have somebody tell them, like, I can get you somewhere that's going to be amazing. And away from all these problems that you have or these worries that you're dealing with. And all they're doing is, you know.

[Ash]

Going to the manipulating possible.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's very sad.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So no matter how they were described, the group still had pretty much all the obvious hallmarks of a cult. Like, we were just saying, they were insular, they were reclusive, they all dressed the same. They didn't demonstrate any kind of individuality. And most importantly, they were very devoted to the bizarre teachings of their leader. From the moment the deaths were reported, all anybody could think of was something I mentioned earlier. The mass deaths that had taken place in Jonestown two decades earlier. Because it sounded very. Sounded very familiar.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And both events were entirely incomprehensible to anybody on the outside. Undersheriff Jack Drown said, we are proceeding with the preliminary conclusion that what we are looking at is, in fact, 39 suicides. I'm not too sure we'll ever have satisfactory answers.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Because who's there to tell you?

[Elena]

I was just gonna say they're really just trying to derive things off of a scene. Yeah. Of 39 dead people.

[Ash]

And one person who called in and was like, I knew they were gonna do this. Like, here they are. So whatever answers came in the weeks and months that followed weren't really likely to satisfy Anybody who was curious. But there was an explanation for what had happened at the compound. And it turned out that the key to understanding the deaths was in understanding the leader himself. Marshall Applewhite.

[Elena]

Yeah. Who's this guy?

[Ash]

He's got an interesting story. So Marshall Herf Applewhite was born May 17, 1931, in Spur, Texas, to Louise and Marshall Applewhite senior, a homer, a homemaker, and a Presbyterian minister, respectively. As the child of a minister, obviously, religion played a pretty significant role in Marshall's life From the time he was born, and he participated actively and actually enthusiastically in the church that his dad ran. By high school, his enthusiasm for religion had kind of diminished, especially when he got more involved in, like, student groups and extracurriculars, but it didn't deplete. Entirely.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to his sister Louise, the family led a kind of nomadic life during their, like, childhood. As one of the leaders of the Texas Presbyterian community, Marshall senior uprooted his family every few years to move from one small south Texas community after another. Like, they were just constantly moving around Texas.

[Elena]

That must be tough.

[Ash]

He would establish a new church, he'd build up the congregation, and they'd move on. So after his graduation from Corpus Christi high school in 1948, Marshall enrolled at Austin college in Sherman, Texas, and he pursued a degree in philosophy, which is kind of on the nose, I was gonna say. His former roommate said that Marshall was religious, but not fanatically at that point.

[Elena]

Point.

[Ash]

He said he was an extrovert, he was popular, he was very smart. He wasn't pushy. And that memory seems to check out during this period. Marshall's religious activities definitely took a back seat to his other school activities. He was on the judiciary council, and he was the leader of the school's acapella choir.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So it wasn't like he was running around spreading all his views.

[Elena]

No. And he wasn't, like, isolating or, you.

[Ash]

Know, it was very much involved.

[Elena]

Hyper fixating on certain things. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

Like, he had some kind of faith that he followed, but it wasn't necessarily the focal point of his life.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, he was varied in his interests, it seems.

[Ash]

So once he got his degree from Austin College in 1952, he enrolled at Union Presbyterian seminary in Richard, Virginia, and that was when he planned to follow in his father's footsteps. But by the end of his first year, he missed being involved with music, so he actually dropped out of the program and took a position as the director of music at the first Presbyterian church in Gastonia, North Carolina, I think it is. Former choir member Edith Warren said he had a beautiful voice. He was a very personable person, and he was a strong leader.

[Elena]

Oh, that'll give you goosebumps.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like hearing that in this context. Yeah, hearing that. Otherwise you're like, oh, my God, Good job. Good for him. Look at you. Like, you're like leader vibes. Yeah. Now you're like, like, oh, yeah.

[Elena]

He took that to a dark place.

[Ash]

Yeah. So it was during this time, which is around 1953, that he met and married Anne Pierce. They became friends with actually that woman, Edith Warren and her husband, who were also newlyweds, and they just started spending a ton of time together as couple friends. Unfortunately, Marshall's new life in North Carolina was disrupted when he was drafted in 1954. For the two years that followed, he and Anne lived in Salzburg, Austria, actually. And then he was relocated to White Sands, New Mexico, where he served as an instructor in the Army Signal Corps. Two years later, after he was honorably discharged from the army, he and Anne moved to Colorado. He finished his graduate degree at the University of Colorado. He actually got a master's in music. And then his plan was to pursue a career in musical theater.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So he went all over the place. Pretty much.

[Elena]

He wish he had followed that path. Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, during that time, he and Anne actually had two children.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

And Anne basically just spent most of her time focused on raising her family while Marshall was looking into his musical theater career. After he got his degree, they moved the family to New York City. Obviously that's the best place where you can pursue your music professional singing career. But it didn't take long before he realized that his dream of fame wasn't very practical and it wasn't going to be financially sustainable for a family.

[Elena]

Yes. It's a lot of hit and miss. Yeah.

[Ash]

So the family went back south, where Marshall bounced from one short lived job to another. He just was kind of doing whatever he needed to at that point to try to feed his family.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

His sister said during those years, Marshall was really devoted to his children, which is nice. It is for the time being. While he may have been devoted to his children, by the early 1960s, the relationship between Marshall and Ann became strained. What Anne didn't know and really what nobody knew at that point was that Marshall was struggling with his sexuality and had been from a young age.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

He was finding it more and more difficult to deny that he was gay. And obviously this was a very tough time to, yeah. Struggle with that. So while he was Working at the University of Alabama, he started having an affair with a male student.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And when the relationship was discovered in 1965, he was obviously fired.

[Elena]

As he should be. Yeah.

[Ash]

The reasoning for his firing inevitably made its way to his wife, who was devastated. So they separated that year, but they remained remained married for three more years before they finally divorced in 1968.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So that same situation actually went down a second time. In 1970, he was fired again, this time from his position as a music professor at the University of St. Thomas in Houston. And that year, school administrators discovered he was having a relationship again with a male student.

[Elena]

Oh, so he's like being a predator.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But the school's official reasoning for termining his employment was listed as has health problems of an emotional nature.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Which is very telling.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So no good.

[Elena]

No. That's very predatory behavior, my friend.

[Ash]

Yeah, definitely. So even though his being fired from a Christian university was almost certainly related to one being predatory and to his sexuality.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

This was the first time that any anybody had actually addressed his poor mental health. He was really going through it.

[Elena]

Clear. Yeah.

[Ash]

Around this time, Patsy Swayze, the legit mother of Patrick Swayze.

[Elena]

Oh, I was, I was like, Swayze, you said.

[Ash]

Correct.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

She was in a local theater group with Marshall Applewhite.

[Elena]

What the fuck?

[Ash]

And she actually started noticing a change in his behavior around this time.

[Elena]

Mama Swayze.

[Ash]

Mama Swayze. She said he was normally well spoken, but suddenly she and a lot of others in the group noticed that he started to, quote, act Strangely, talking about UFOs and preaching this strange religion.

[Elena]

Oh, then that's like. That's so unsettling to just have such.

[Ash]

A switch in personality and it was so marked.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's the thing.

[Ash]

Even, I mean, Mama Swayze noticed.

[Elena]

Mama Swayze noticed.

[Ash]

Yeah. So what?

[Elena]

I trust Mama Swayze.

[Ash]

I do too. RIP Patrick and Mama.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

So what Mama Swayze and the other group, the others in the group didn't know was that in addition to Marshalls having been fired, he also came out to his parents and was immediately and aggressively rejected by his father.

[Elena]

Nothing about that will ever make sense to me.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

Ever?

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

On any level.

[Ash]

You shouldn't have kids if you're afraid.

[Elena]

If you're not going to love them no matter what.

[Ash]

Exactly. Like anyway, not long after he was hospitalized with, or I should say he was allegedly hospitalized with the blockage in his heart that he supposedly almost died from, his sister believed that it was that near death experience and the influence of one of his nurses. That really led to the profound shift in his personality and his lifestyle.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

She said one of the nurses there told him he had a purpose, that God kept him alive. She sort of talked him into the fact that this was his purpose, to lead these people, and he took it from there.

[Elena]

I can't imagine being that nurse. That's rough.

[Ash]

You definitely can't imagine being that nurse because she becomes a huge part of this story.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Is like she gets lost a lot. She's like kind of one of the founding members of Heaven's Game.

[Elena]

Because I was gonna say. I thought you were just gonna say she was this nurse who helped him. And then just like a sweetie innocuous, innocuously said to him, like, you're here for a purpose. Like, lead people. You know what I mean? Like, trying to be like you're here. Like you have a purpose, a destiny.

[Ash]

Like, just like that sweet lady that.

[Elena]

You see in a movie.

[Ash]

And you're like, I thought that's what.

[Elena]

That was gonna be. And then he became Marshal Applewhite of the Heaven's Gate cult. And she was like, fuck. I just meant live. Like, I. I thought she was gonna be like, damn it. I didn't mean that.

[Ash]

I. I thought the same thing when I first started learning about this, but then I found out very quickly that they essentially, like, merged brains.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

It's crazy. Okay, so we'll get into that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So it turned out that Marshall had actually lied about the health scare and that he had actually checked himself into a psychiatric hospital.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

In part for the treatment of his declining emotional health, but also. And this is really sad. In search of a cure for his sexuality. That's so sad, because this was a time where people literally believed they could be cured of being.

[Elena]

That it was an issue that needed to be cured. Yeah.

[Ash]

So the rest does seem to be true. He did meet a nurse at the hospital. Her name was Bonnie Nettles. And she did convince him that he was special and that God had a plan for him. And she told him that God's plan was for him to lead a new religious movement in America.

[Elena]

Now she's a nurse at a psychiatric hospital. Correct? Correct. Okay, don't do that.

[Ash]

Don't do that.

[Elena]

If you're a nurse at a psychiatric hospital.

[Ash]

Step one, don't do that.

[Elena]

Don't do that. Step two, don't tell your patients that it's their job to lead a new religious movement in America.

[Ash]

Yeah, write that down.

[Elena]

I'm gonna. Blanket statement that I think don't do that.

[Ash]

Someone will disagree with you.

[Elena]

But I think that's fine 100%. Someone will tell me I'm being an asshole for saying that. I stand by this stance, 11 toes down, just with my whole chest. I'm saying it.

[Ash]

Oh, she literally motioned.

[Elena]

Literally. Here it is.

[Ash]

All of it.

[Elena]

All of it.

[Ash]

All of it.

[Elena]

Don't do it.

[Ash]

Don't.

[Elena]

I request.

[Ash]

Don't.

[Elena]

Because this will happen. Yeah.

[Ash]

And we're not even halfway through.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

So that wasn't all. That wasn't even it. Whatever plan God had for Marshall Applewhite, she said, I'm going along with you.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

She said, God wants me, Bonnie. By your side.

[Elena]

Nobody.

[Ash]

Me. Bonnie.

[Elena]

You.

[Ash]

Clyde.

[Elena]

Bonnie. How'd you get this job?

[Ash]

We religion. I don't. For real, Bonnie. I don't think they were really doing lots of background checks back then. Apparently not.

[Elena]

Because. What the.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Just leading them into the fire. Yeah.

[Ash]

She sure is.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

So even though it's been 30 years at this point, and a ton has been written throughout those years about Heaven's Gate and its founders as well, a lot of the group's history and their evolution is still kind of a mystery. Obviously, a large part of that is the fact that. That most of the main members, if not all of them, died in 1997. But also according to historian Benjamin Zeller, because the group changed their name, their beliefs, and their organizational structure a ton of times over two decades. Zeller wrote, these many changes make Heaven's Gate more difficult to characterize, but they actually reveal something very important. The group demonstrated flexibility.

[Elena]

Yeah. Which is very interesting, I was going.

[Ash]

To say, for a cult, that's not reality. With other ones. So the group that would eventually become known to the world and us right now as Heaven's Gate started when Marshall was discharged from the hospital and decided to just completely abandon his old life.

[Elena]

Because Bonnie told him to.

[Ash]

Yeah. He was already divorced. He had already been disowned by his parents, so he really didn't have a lot to hold onto in Texas. He did have his two children.

[Elena]

Thank you. But I don't know. I was like, he does have these two things.

[Ash]

I don't know. Usually I'm very quick to be like, fuck you if you abandon your children. And I don't know what the case was if he, like, wasn't allowed to see them.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because of everything that was going on.

[Elena]

That's a valid thought.

[Ash]

Who knows?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He may very well have abandoned his children.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But I don't know. So one day in the mid-70s, he just abandoned his life. And he showed up at his sister's house to say his formal goodbyes. His sister Louise remembered. He told me he wasn't going to see us anymore. I said to him, what's the matter with you? That's not the real you. And his response was, you just don't know the real me. And that was the last time that she or anyone else in her family would ever see or hear from Marshall ever again.

[Elena]

That's really sad.

[Ash]

It's for his heartbreaking like to have.

[Elena]

That be so unceremoniously disappearing and the.

[Ash]

Last words ever spoken to you actually don't know the real me. That's so sad because she's probably like.

[Elena]

Well, I'd like to like, I'm. What the. Do you.

[Ash]

And I'm worried about you. Like, I care for you. I love you.

[Elena]

That's so scary. Yeah.

[Ash]

So by the time Marshall and Bonnie met, which was in the mid-70s at this point, Bonnie herself had dabbled in various forms of spirituality, but she hadn't really found the one that fit for her. She'd been raised Baptist, but she was never devout. And she spent her adult years exploring things like astrology, telepathy, theosophy. Is that how you say that?

[Elena]

Sure.

[Ash]

Cool. And that was actually a kind of spiritualism that became popular in later 19th century England. Okay, if you want to look into.

[Elena]

That, give it a shot.

[Ash]

Even though she hadn't found anything that felt authentic to her at that point, she was still searching for something most likely to distract herself from her failing marriage and deeply unsatisfying home life. She was over overwhelmed, caring for four young children.

[Elena]

I'm gonna stay quiet.

[Ash]

Yeah. In 1972, Bonnie divorced her husband, abandoned her children, and embarked on a more delib journey of spiritual seeking. I feel like any higher level that you're going to connect to, like I don't know what's out there. Who am I to say? I feel like any higher level out there that you want to connect to will probably want you to be connected to your children.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, if I was a higher level, I would be pretty judgy. If you abandoned your children.

[Ash]

Facts. Put that on a show.

[Elena]

That's hypothetical.

[Ash]

If I'm a higher level, I'm judging you for abandoning your children.

[Elena]

That's if I became a higher level of being.

[Ash]

If so when Marshall's sexual frustrations and declining mental health merged with Bonnie Nettle's growing interest in spiritualism, what emerged was what they both called the human individual. Metamorphosis. But their belief was that by pursuing mystical experiences, a person could transcend their human existence and become a more evolved being. Like, beyond human.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So that new religious framework gave them both a world view that was definitely a lot more hopeful and exciting than the lives that they had been living for. Sure.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But at the same time, their spiritual bond created a mutually supportive relationship that met all the emotional needs that you would typically find with a romantic partner. There just wasn't the sexual component that had caused Marshall so much psychological stress in the past. Okay, so it's a kind of perfect. Perfect for what they wanted.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In a 1976 interview, Marshall said of Bonnie, I felt I had known her forever. It was as if we were being guided by forces greater than ourselves. We were snatched from our previous lives. It's like, no, you walked away from them.

[Elena]

Yeah. This reminds me of the Amy character in True Blood.

[Ash]

Yes, it is very. That she absolutely would have been a part of Heaven's gate.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

100%.

[Elena]

Like the way they talk and everything. That just reminds me she may.

[Ash]

She may have founded Heaven. She might have if she was a real person.

[Elena]

Yeah. Go watch True Blood.

[Ash]

Oh, so good.

[Elena]

And listen to the rewatcher.

[Ash]

Duh.

[Elena]

Where we talk about True Blood.

[Ash]

We're almost done with the first season. You better go check it out right now.

[Elena]

It's just reminding me of her.

[Ash]

True Blood is. Sorry. True Blood is also coming up a lot in my life lately. I was listening to Sup the other day, and Lara was saying that she needs to start watching True Blood again.

[Elena]

Yeah, she does.

[Ash]

She was like, I want to rewatch it.

[Elena]

Rewatch it.

[Ash]

But then I fast forwarded because I didn't want any spoilers.

[Elena]

Ah, smart.

[Ash]

But I was like, damn, that's weird that that randomly came up.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Anyway, throughout the next few years, they both decided to set out to share their new beliefs, because everybody wants to hear about everybody else's beliefs. And not long after meeting, they founded the Christian Arts center, which was kind of like a combination bookstore slash spiritual center that was in Houston. The store failed after just a few months, so they moved and they opened up the no Place. K N O W. Oh, the no Place. The no Place. Be in the.

[Elena]

No. You come in and they're just like, no, no. Do you have a bathroom?

[Ash]

No, no, but K, N O W. You should know.

[Elena]

You should just know.

[Ash]

It was essentially the same store just in a different location and ultimately lasted about as long and then failed.

[Elena]

Weird that that happened.

[Ash]

It's crazy when the no place. The no Place closed its doors. They decided to leave Texas and travel the country to spread the word even more about their beliefs because it was working out so well for them.

[Elena]

And here's the thing. Why don't you just have them? Yeah. Just have the beliefs.

[Ash]

If you meet people together and they ask you, then by all means. But if you're just like going around being like, hey, you, I gotta tell you about this form of spiritual higher living. You're gonna be evolved in shit. Stop. Just stop.

[Elena]

Just. You want to have them, have them. You want to talk about them, Talk about them. Don't go knocking on doors telling people about it. Don't do that. Don't solicit people's lives to tell them that they need to be part of your beliefs.

[Ash]

And maybe be sure before you tell a bunch of people that they can evolve into a higher spiritual form. Just saying. Yeah, you should really do your research.

[Elena]

Double check that.

[Ash]

Yeah, like run that through a few.

[Elena]

Schematics before you go saying that. That's like a sure thing.

[Ash]

That's just our recommendation. The morbid wreck. Yep.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Excuse me.

[Elena]

Ash just transformed into a higher life form.

[Ash]

You should leave that in.

[Elena]

I approve it.

[Ash]

Sorry that you had to hear that.

[Elena]

She just transcended.

[Ash]

I was just testing it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Before I tell you about my beliefs, I have to you tell. Just kidding.

[Elena]

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[Elena]

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[Ash]

So after leaving Houston, they spent years traveling around the U.S. they gave interviews. At this point, they were just speaking wherever and whenever they could find an appearance or an audience. At first, their message didn't appeal much to the masses, if you can believe it. But by the end of 70. Yeah. And by the end of 1973, they had only attracted one member to their movement.

[Elena]

To be honest, that's more than I thought they would get.

[Ash]

1. It just reminds me of that Full House episode where Jesse invents that thing and he's like, 3001. They're like, where is spiritual movement? With one. So they found one. But soon their beliefs started to find some traction. As you know, the new age movement grew in popularity.

[Elena]

And by the late 1970s.

[Ash]

Man, Free Love Baby movements. Yeah, movements. By the 1970s, they amassed more than 200 followers. That's way more. It's 199 more.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By that time, their identities that had also kind of solidified into what they would be for the rest of their lives. They were the two.

[Elena]

The two.

[Ash]

The two who were two figures described in the book of Revelations who would witness the end of human civilization and then be born again.

[Elena]

This is so much work also.

[Ash]

That's as far as I know it. Please don't tell me all about it.

[Elena]

Yeah, this is so much work. It feels.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's the thing with these cards adults.

[Ash]

It's a lot of upkeep.

[Elena]

And that's why I know no way, no how do you ever be involved. Because I'm like, this is too much. You're doing too. You're working harder, not smarter.

[Ash]

My favorite part, though, of cults is they're like, we're the two. Whoever the higher form is told us. But eventually they become something else too. Of course. Like, they are the two, but then they become this and this.

[Elena]

But they've already indoctrinated everyone so they're able to change like that. And people just go, yep, yep. Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, it's like how Mother God was.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like 45 different people go.

[Elena]

We see it happening all over the place.

[Ash]

If you guys. Speaking of cults, and this is like a little bit old, but if you haven't Watched the Love Has One documentary. You've got to watch that.

[Elena]

But I think, be warned.

[Ash]

Be super warned. It's graphic and it opens up like there's. There's a body being shown.

[Elena]

Yeah. Just so, you know, ahead of time.

[Ash]

It's different.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Different.

[Ash]

But it's a really, really interesting documentary. But anyway, back to this cult. Benjamin Zeller noted, in pinning their religious identities and the. And missions on this passage from Revelations, the two had veered from their initial New Age forays into the apocalyptic millennialism that characterized the conservative evangelical Protestantism of the time. So basically, they were, like, aligning themselves with some other religious things going on.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In layman's terms, let's go. So essentially, they would go on to blend their apocalyptic vision with their belief in aliens and all these unconventional concepts. And the core of their belief system definitely hinted at the dark outcome for Heaven's Gate.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

No matter how joyous and transcendent a rebirth might be, it still required death.

[Elena]

Oh, that's the deal breaker.

[Ash]

Yeah, that would be my deal breaker if I hadn't already felt like there was many along the way.

[Elena]

Yeah, there's a few before that.

[Ash]

That would be the biggest.

[Elena]

But that's what's so sad about this, is like, the people who are getting roped into this, that's not a deal breaker because they're. That.

[Ash]

Because they're so lost, and that's really sad. Down on their luck and like that.

[Elena]

That is not something. If that's not the deal breaker, then you have been through it and you've got a lot going on and somebody shouldn't be preying on you.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

And that sucks.

[Ash]

Exactly. So while the two continued building out their spiritual belief system, Marshall Applewhite's grandiose sense of self and his psychological stability continued to shift, change, and decline. As Marshall Applewhite, Texic music teacher and closeted man, he didn't feel that he was anybody special, and his future was basically bleak as far as he was concerned. But as one of the two, he felt he had been chosen by the divine for something more important than whatever was happening on Earth, and so he started acting like it. In the summer of 1974, while they were traveling to spread their message, Marshall and Bonnie were both arrested multiple times on charges including credit card fraud and automobile theft.

[Angie Hicks]

Geez.

[Ash]

And when he was arrested for failing to return a rental car, Marshall or one of the two explained the incident by saying that he had been divinely authorized to keep the vehicle.

[Elena]

That's. That's honestly just Behavior.

[Ash]

Can you imagine just trying to get away with all your poor behavior? Yeah. Just saying, I'm divinely authorized.

[Elena]

I can steal this because I've been divinely authorized to like, come on, come on. Also.

[Ash]

That's not gonna hold up in a court wall, baby.

[Elena]

Nobody cares about the divine. It is.

[Ash]

So the late 70s was definitely transformational for both of the two. They abandoned their previous moniker though, of the two. And they started referring to each other as Bo and Peach. That's for real.

[Elena]

That's when, you know, people were really fucked under this. Because when they, when they.

[Ash]

Oh, I thought you meant the two of them.

[Elena]

It's almost like they changed that to see if. How, how strong the hold was.

[Ash]

I think that. And I think they were getting so lost in all of this that they were. There was no tie to reality at this point in time. And the same at the same time. And this is how I know that, that their mythology and beliefs were also evolving. They seem to include, like, especially now at this point, all of their ideologies seem to include a more like science fiction based concept.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

For example, in 1975, they convinced their small group of followers because people had dropped off at that point in time that a spaceship was coming to Earth and it would only take 30 of them. So they all camped out in Oregon waiting for the ship to arrive, but it didn't. And then so they were like, oh, we had our calculations wrong, because cults do that a lot. And then they repeated the claim a few months later and again the ship didn't come.

[Elena]

This is definitely where they got the, the cult from Parks and Rec. The one who changes the time that the spaceship's gonna come or Zorp is gonna come.

[Ash]

I don't know if I made it that far in Parks and Rec. I got it.

[Elena]

Aren't they called the rationalists? There's something like that. It's like. And they, they name themselves that so nobody could argue with it because it's rational.

[Ash]

That's incredible. I'm making sure.

[Elena]

And they change the time.

[Ash]

No, they're the reasonable reasonableist.

[Elena]

That's what it is. Because you can't argue with somebody who's reasonable. And they change.

[Ash]

Brilliant.

[Elena]

They change the date of the time when Zorp is going to come and destroy everybody or take everybody into. Because they like are going to be like risen up and ascended. Yeah, they change it and they just keep changing it.

[Ash]

Yeah, like every time he doesn't show.

[Elena]

Up, they're just like, well, Zorp is coming next time.

[Ash]

That's the same thing as, like, the. What was the thing that just happened?

[Elena]

The Rapture.

[Ash]

The Rapture. Yeah. That changes all the. It's always rapture season.

[Elena]

It's all about moving the goal post, you know?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And that's. This reminds me of it, though, that they're like, well, they didn't show up.

[Ash]

It's next month.

[Elena]

Wait, it's actually next month? That's literally the reasonablest.

[Ash]

Yeah, they're just not reasonable.

[Elena]

Yeah. Organize it, Zorp. That's what. He wrote a book about it.

[Ash]

Oh, I. I've heard that before. I gotta finish Parks and Rec.

[Elena]

You do? It's great.

[Ash]

I love Parks and Rec. So when the spaceship failed to arrive, a lot of people among their followers started to feel like this was all a bit of malarkey and they left the group.

[Elena]

Good for them.

[Angie Hicks]

And they.

[Ash]

That dropped Bonnie and Marshall, or, excuse me, Bo and Peep's numbers from over a hundred to just a few dozen at that point.

[Elena]

I hope those people, like, went to.

[Ash]

Get help and, like, got.

[Elena]

I hope their lives got better.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

I hope this was an experience and they can just go, wow, that was crazy.

[Ash]

I hope it was like when Mr. Matthews saves Sean Hunter from the cult and Sean realizes that you can't have Sean.

[Elena]

And I said, oh, my God, Mr. Matthews.

[Ash]

I said, Mr. Matthew.

[Elena]

That was what I was like, whoa.

[Ash]

We've talked about. I think every time we talk about a where like Mr. Matthews, and.

[Elena]

It'S that this really is like. I hope it was like that.

[Ash]

I hope it was. And I hope Mr. Matthews showed up on the spot and was like, the spaceship didn't come, and you're coming with us, baby. And we're gonna.

[Elena]

We can't have you.

[Ash]

No, we're gonna need you. Dinner tonight. But I really do.

[Elena]

I hope they all, like, lived happier lives.

[Ash]

I do too.

[Elena]

I hope this was like a. A. A growing moment.

[Ash]

Yeah, I'm sure it was. So in addition to the mass exodus of people who I definitely know lived a happier life.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm going with that.

[Ash]

Things took a turn for the. The press got involved and started accusing the two leaders of brainwashing.

[Elena]

Yeah. A grift.

[Ash]

Sparkle. Sparkle. A grift. Exactly. At a time when concerns about the danger of cults was beginning to spread around the US Nothing could have been more harmful to their movement. So in response, Body, Bonnie nettles announced in 1976 that the group would no longer hold public meetings.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And instead they shifted their focus to giving private lectures.

[Elena]

Okay. And Said, wow, you know what? But that'll teach everyone.

[Ash]

Yeah, how cool of you. So the human individual metamorphosis movement continued into the 80s, with the small group of followers expanding and contracting year after year. They picked some up, they dropped some off. They picked some up, they dropped them off. But they never reached more than 100 members. During that period. Bonnie and Marshall, who had rebranded yet again and were now going by the names of Tea and Dough, they developed a kind of paranoia that grew out of their apocalyptic beliefs.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Among other things, they worried that either they or somebody amongst their group was going to be assassinated. Oh, obviously that fear was influenced by Jonestown.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But the group continued traveling around the US For a few years, living off whatever money its members had picked up and picking up new members here and there. At first, the structure of the group was informal, but over time, it did start to take on a more rigid form. Marshall demanded that if members were going to travel with them, they had to cut themselves off entirely from their families and fully abandon their previous lives.

[Elena]

That's. That's the. That's the red flag. Yeah, that's it right there.

[Ash]

And here's some more.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

In time, they dictated what people ate, what they wore, and most importantly, what kind of relationships they could have.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And they informed everybody that if they wanted to ascend to a higher plane, quote, unquote, quote, they could not engage in any kind of sexual relationship with another.

[Elena]

Okay. Yeah, okay.

[Ash]

So the first sign of, like, this doesn't seem healthy. No, it's definitely not. The first sign of real, real Trouble came in 1985 after Bonnie Nettles died from liver cancer.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

For over 10 years. At that point, she and Marshall had been codependent and fully expected to receive their Celestial awards rewards together. But Bonnie's death obviously caused Marshall to spiral even deeper into his delusional thinking, and he had a full blown crisis of faith. In the years that followed, the group bounced around the Southwest, occasionally adding new members, but mostly losing them. And all at that time, Marshall's beliefs and expectations got much more rigid. By 1993, the members of him, just so we don't have to say the full thing every time. Had dropped to just a few dozen. So in June, Marshall placed an ad in USA Today to try to recruit new members.

[Elena]

I actually had no idea that that happened.

[Ash]

I didn't know that Dave found this piece of information and I said, qua.

[Elena]

Excuse me, Dave?

[Ash]

I said, dave, what?

[Elena]

Dave, what?

[Ash]

Yeah, well, that marked the first time the members of Heaven's Gate used a computer to grow their organization. And it turned out that not only was the incorporation of technology a useful and convenient tool, but it also fit very well within their science fiction adjacent belief system.

[Elena]

Oh yeah, it does.

[Ash]

So in the fall of 95, the remaining members of what eventually became Heaven's Gate rented a property in a remote part of New Mexico. But for some reason they abandoned that compound. And then in that, that October, they moved to the San Diego county area.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

At first they lived in various homes and that was before the remaining forty or so members finally settled at the seven thousand dollar a month ranch mansion. Excuse me, in Rancho Santa Fe.

[Elena]

I wonder why they abandoned that other one.

[Ash]

Yeah, I'm not sure. Who knows, Maybe it, the ship like wasn't coming there.

[Elena]

Yeah, maybe.

[Ash]

I wonder if it had anything to do actually with the Hill Bop Comet.

[Elena]

Oh, maybe the path. They were following the path. Yeah.

[Ash]

But $7,000 a month back then, what.

[Elena]

I mean, yeah, that's huge. $7,000 a month is wild. Yeah.

[Ash]

So it was during that period that they started their web design and IT business that I mentioned earlier. That was Higher Source Contract Enterprises. And it was also during those last years, as news of the approaching halebot comet started making the rounds on the news programs, that Marshall started planning the quote unquote final phase of his mythology, exiting Earth for the next level.

[Elena]

Oh, you just wish everybody could have seen. And you wonder how many people knew. This is complete and utter dog shit. But they literally just wanted to die. It's and felt like this was an like a more community based moment of everybody doing it together, which made it not as scary.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And that's what I always think of is like how sad is that? That's the thing.

[Ash]

And maybe just like almost let themselves believe it, but like somewhere in their minds knew that this is not, not it.

[Elena]

Like if it. Some of them, it just, this is what they wanted to do and it made it less scary. Yeah, like it's just really sad. It is really, really sad.

[Ash]

Well, in the wake of the deaths in Rancho Santa Fe, like at the mansion, two other members who had already left the compound by that point also ended their own lives.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

One in May and the other in February of the following year. Because I can't imagine knowing that these 39 people who you. Who basically were family.

[Elena]

Yeah, like, because they like live together.

[Ash]

They live together, they work, they eat together, they do everything together. You do form human bonds. Of course. You find out that 39 of the people who you were closest to over the last Few years. All died at once. Like, I don't know how you digest that.

[Elena]

And that they all continued believing this thing so much that they went through with it.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

So one part of them, if they've been indoctrinated and brainwashed enough, are probably thinking, wait, am I missing out?

[Ash]

Right. Right.

[Elena]

And can I go with them if I do this?

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

Just fucked up. Up.

[Ash]

But that meant that of the 42 members of Heaven's Gate who followed Marshall Applewhite to California, the only one who remained alive was Richard Ford Holy. Who I started talking about in the beginning.

[Elena]

That's wild.

[Ash]

One member. So within a few weeks of the discovery at the house, the medical examiner's office had managed to identify all but one of those who died in the Heaven's Gate compound. And eventually they did identify the 39th person. We'll post everybody's name.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ash]

So the families were all notified of the deaths by the sheriff's department, obviously. But by then. This is so sad. Most of them had already received letters of videos from their estranged loved ones explaining what they were going to do.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Or what they had already done at that point.

[Elena]

That's chilling as hell. Which.

[Ash]

It's similar to the letter and the video that Richard received.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In almost every case, the members of Heaven's Gate were excited about what they believed to be the next phase of their lives. Lives, too.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

According to Benjamin Zeller, members understood their actions not as deaths, but as graduations, cutting aside the decaying matter of Earth so as to free their true selves to journey to the next level in the heavens.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

As far as they were concerned, to reject what Marshall believed was the final phase actually would have been the real tragedy.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Which is just.

[Elena]

That's unthinkable.

[Ash]

That's exactly what I was just gonna say. In a video message on Heaven's Gate website, Marshall Applewhite insisted that those left behind shouldn't feel sad for the members of the group. He said that they were excited to be shedding their containers and leaving this planet for a more evolved existence elsewhere.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Which, like, gives me a. Now, obviously, members of Heaven's Gate throughout the years were pretty frequently dismissed as being crazy or having been brainwashed by Marshall and Bonnie. But Benjamin Zeller said that's honestly far too simplistic of a reaction. He wrote, it's just too easy to dismiss them as nuts. Members joined not because of some sort of magical, psychological or spiritual truth that the leaders conjured, but because they were looking for something and believed they Found in Heaven's Gate, which is exactly what you've been pointing out this whole time. In his recollection of his time with the group in 1975, Robert Balk wrote, once I got to know the people, I realized they were not just members of some exotic culture, but ordinary people struggling to find meaning in their lives.

[Elena]

Which is so sad.

[Ash]

He said, overall, they weren't much different from me or my friends. And that aligns with the statements that Richard Ford gave in the wake of the tragedy. He said, I was always looking for answers, looking for purpose in my life. I loved these people and it meant everything to me.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Since he left the group in 97, Richard Ford, who has since changed his name, obviously struggled to find normalcy in his life. But in a 2017 interview, he said, I tried to get a job and people wouldn't hire me because they thought I was part of some crazy thing. Luckily, though, in time, he did manage to put his life back together, and he ended up reconnecting with his family.

[Elena]

Oh, see, I'm happy.

[Ash]

And he eventually reflected and said, I'm a regular guy. I'm trying to be more of myself and a better person in every way that I can.

[Elena]

Well, that's the best outcome.

[Ash]

What's the best outcome for the one surviving one person? The tragic magic story of Heaven's Gate.

[Elena]

That's unbelievable.

[Ash]

It really is. I knew like, the basics. I knew like the Hill Bob comment and that they were all found with Nikes. Like, the more salacious aspect.

[Elena]

Yeah. The things that people really like. Attached.

[Ash]

Right. But I didn't really know about Marshall Applewhite or. But I didn't even know that there was a Bonnie Nettles.

[Elena]

Yeah, I remember hearing that word, that word, that name.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But I didn't know the details.

[Ash]

I didn't know she played such a significant role.

[Elena]

But yeah.

[Ash]

And just wow, how far back this all dated. These kind of cults, they're scary.

[Elena]

That's why, like, we haven't covered Jonestown.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

That's actually crazy that we haven't such an upsetting one. Like, we will eventually, but, like, Jonestown is so.

[Ash]

It's so upsetting.

[Elena]

People did it, like, gave their kids the drink, like their be like.

[Ash]

But it's also so interesting that there's, like, political ties with that.

[Elena]

Shouldn't that, like, that one goes in many different directions.

[Ash]

Yeah. I think we briefly talked about it on a crime countdown.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But that would be an interesting one.

[Elena]

This one always fascinated me because it was such like a. I Remember it being talked about on the news. I remember those kind of things. And I remember seeing the Nike shoes and I remember like those like iconic pictures of. You can just see the feet. And I remembered being like. And it was all science fictiony and like. And it involved weird and the comet was involved. And that was such a big thing when it was happening. And it was like so shrouded in all this, like, weird of the time stuff.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That. That's all I knew of it. But hearing all the details, it's just sad.

[Ash]

It is just sad. It's just like literally like the somebody who was involved with them just said I was looking for answers and purpose in my life. And you know, that's all anybody else that was involved in this was looking for purpose and answers and exactly like something better.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It was just really sad.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

But it makes me happy that the one member who really got away before everything happened, like, figured out his life.

[Elena]

And he feels like he's trying to be more who he is and a.

[Ash]

Better person and that he like reconnected with his family.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm happy for that.

[Ash]

I know. Damn. Let me find a fun fact before.

[Elena]

We end this fact.

[Ash]

Man, I better find the funnest facts. Find the most fun, funnest facts ever. I'm googling. It's not the funnest fact, but it's a fun one. The bumblebee bat is the world's smallest flying mammal.

[Elena]

Shut up. Yeah.

[Ash]

They weigh between 0.05 and 0.07 ounces.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. It's the cutest thing I've ever seen. Oh, I love them.

[Ash]

Their head to body length is literally between. Get away. Get out of here. A.D. look at him. Their head to body length is between 1.14 to 1.29 inches.

[Elena]

Oh, he's just a baby. Look at him.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. I want a bumblebee bat.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

That's the most fun fact.

[Ash]

Okay. I'm so glad you're.

[Elena]

Especially when you put it together with a picture.

[Ash]

We'll post a picture and it will be so confusing to anybody who doesn't stay for the fun fact. But we will post a picture. I'm screaming. I'm screaming. They're also known as Kitty's hog nosed bat. No, I know. I love this. Them.

[Elena]

I'm literally obsessed with him.

[Ash]

Look at this guy. He is doing him's best. He is out here doing his best. I want one.

[Elena]

Oh, I love him. Oh.

[Ash]

All right. Go look at those.

[Elena]

And.

[Ash]

And don't tell other people how to live their lives.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So. But I'm going to tell you how to leave. Live your life. We hope you keep listening and we.

[Elena]

Hope you keep it weird. Bye.

[Ash]

Oh, but not so weird that I was like, what? Not so weird that cults.

[Elena]

Because.

[Ash]

Don't cult.

[Elena]

Don't cult.

[Ash]

Cult Bad.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Bumblebee good for.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Bumblebee B. Better.

[Elena]

Oh, my God, I love them so much. Bye. They're so little. Sam. Sat.

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