Dennis Nilsen: The Kindly Killer (Part 1)

Summary

Morbid Podcast: “Dennis Nilsen: The Kindly Killer (Part 1)”

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: February 5, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode launches a three-part series on Dennis Nilsen, infamously nicknamed "The Kindly Killer." Alaina and Ash delve into the grim details of Nilsen’s early life and the psychological roots of his crimes, setting the stage for his notorious string of murders in 1980s London. Combining intensive research with their signature blend of banter and macabre curiosity, the hosts trace Nilsen’s journey from an isolated Scottish boy to a deeply troubled adult with monstrous tendencies, all while maintaining their characteristic dark humor.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Podcast Banter, Personal Updates, & Breaking News (01:32–05:56)

• Hosts express shock and concern over Today Show anchor Savannah Guthrie’s missing mother, Nancy.

  • Empathy for the family’s ordeal; speculation about the ongoing investigation (01:51–04:47).
  • Discussion on supporting local businesses as a response to current news/topics (05:02–06:10).

• "Flow State" Banter (06:13–11:08):

  • Ash and Alaina riff whimsically about the concept of "flow state," sharing personal examples (organizing, writing, skincare) and encouraging listeners to find moments of fully absorbed enjoyment in their own days.
  • Memorable quote:
    • Alaina: “Tomorrow, wake up, attempt flow state… Just make sure you do not go to bed tomorrow night until you have entered your flow state, even for a second…” (09:17)
    • Ash: “If you drank every time we said ‘flow state’ during this, you died.” (10:42)

2. Introduction to the Case: Setting the Scene (11:08–13:32)

• Trigger warning issued: Necrophilic tendencies will be discussed.
• Brief overview of the Nilsen case: In February 1983, plumbers discover human remains clogging a drainpipe at a London apartment, leading police to tenant Dennis Nilsen.
• Notable “80s” context in pop culture and crime:
  • Ash quips, “Whenever anybody says anything is the 80s anymore, all I can hear is the 80s in my head saying ‘yeah, it was the 80s’…” (12:41)

3. Nilsen’s Early Life: Isolation & Roots of Darkness (13:32–29:19)

• Born Nov 23, 1945, in Scotland—likely a Sagittarius (14:37–14:57 banter about zodiac signs).
• Family life marred by absent father (a Norwegian soldier, emotionally disengaged) and a distant, preoccupied mother.
• Nilsen profoundly attached to his grandfather, Andrew, whose death when Nilsen was 6 (viewing the corpse at the funeral is a defining childhood memory) instilled lasting trauma and a fixation on death.
  • Quote: “My troubles started there. It blighted my personality permanently. I’ve spent all my emotional life searching for my grandfather…” – Nilsen (25:05)
• Describes his own childhood as “an unhappy, brooding child, secretive and stricken with inferiority.” (23:47)
• Early signals of darkness: possible suicide attempt (walking into the sea at age 6, possibly rescued & assaulted, though Nilsen acknowledges his memory/fantasy may blend).

4. Adolescence & Military Career (29:19–34:28)

• Joins Army Cadet Force as a teen; finds its structure and camaraderie appealing.
• At 15, leaves school to join the military; pivotal experience for a few years, but emotional isolation deepens.
• Growing awareness of his homosexuality in an era—and especially an institution—where it was taboo.
  • Nilsen describes fear and repression: “I was always afraid that I must somehow look different and that my innermost thoughts would be exposed…” (30:54)

5. After Service: Loneliness, Despair, and Early Red Flags (34:28–43:10)

• Leaves army in 1972, drifting between jobs and living at home; rift with brother after being outed as gay; moves to London, joins the Metropolitan Police.
• Finds gay scene in London disillusioning; seeks connection but only finds “soul-destroying pub scene and its resulting one night stands...” (35:31)
• Increasing sense of aimlessness and inability to bond.
• Early predatory behavior:
  • The David Painter Incident (41:40–43:27):
    • Nilsen brings home 17-year-old runaway, attempts unwanted sexual advances, is accused of filming Painter while he sleeps.
    • Painter’s parents refuse to press charges, police issue only a warning—signals an early escalation towards his later crimes.

6. Co-habitation & Slide Toward Darkness (44:08–51:21)

• Life with David Galachan:
  • Nilsen enters his only semi-stable relationship but it’s largely “artificial;” they get a dog (“Bleep”) and play out a domestic façade.
  • The relationship is more convenience than affection; both pursue other partners.
  • After the breakup, his loneliness and fantasies grow darker; sexual and emotional alienation intensifies.
• Risky and Morbid Fantasies:
  • Nilsen begins simulating his own death, referencing a fascination with corpses and lifelessness.
    • Graphic quote:
      • “I put talc on my face to erase the living color…I lie staring eyed on the bed in front of the mirror…let my saliva foam and drip from my mouth…” (49:28)
  • Instigates fire in his own home to “rescue” unconscious party guests, seeking hero role (50:27–51:13).

7. First Murder: Stephen Holmes (52:16–59:38)

• On New Year's Eve, 1978, after drinking alone and feeling rejected, Nilsen lures 14-year-old Stephen Holmes home from a bar for drinks.
• When Holmes passes out, Nilsen, driven by fear of being left alone, strangles and drowns him.
  • Nilsen’s chilling recollection:
    • “I remember thinking that I wanted him to stay with me over the new year, whether he wanted to or not.” (54:03)
    • “I quickly straddled him and pulled tight for all I was worth…” (54:05)
• Brings body to bathroom, washes it, then stores it under the floorboards for months, periodically retrieving and violating the corpse.
• Eventually burns the remains in the garden bonfire; buries fragments (59:06–59:38).

8. Aftermath and Psychological Descent (59:38–end)

• Nilsen alternates between thoughts of confession and rationalization—believes he’ll never do it again, but soon breaks his resolve.
• The episode ends with a preview for part two: escalation is imminent.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On flow state:
  • Alaina: “Tomorrow, wake up, attempt flow state… Do whatever you need to do. And to make sure you do not go to bed tomorrow night until you have entered your flow state, even for a second…” (09:17)
• On self-talk and self-image:
  • Alaina: “Stop telling—saying you’re dumb and being mean to yourself. That’s another piece of advice.” (17:43)
  • RuPaul quote attempt: “How in the hell are you going to love somebody else if you cannot love yourself?” (17:00–17:14, paraphrased with much laughter)
• On Nilsen’s childhood wound:
  • “I’ve spent all my emotional life searching for my grandfather…” – Nilsen (25:05)
• On horror of first murder:
  • “I wanted him to stay with me over the new year, whether he wanted to or not.” – Nilsen (54:03)
• On necrophilia and self-induced death play:
  • “I put talc on my face… let my saliva foam and drip from my mouth. I step outside myself in detached imagination.” – Nilsen (49:28)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:51 – Hosts discuss Savannah Guthrie’s missing mother
• 06:13–11:08 – “Flow state” banter and life encouragement
• 13:32 – Begin Nilsen’s early life and psychological background
• 25:05 – Nilsen's psychological turning point after grandfather's death
• 41:40 – The David Painter incident, a key escalation
• 44:08 – Life with David Galachan and beginnings of descent
• 49:28 – Nilsen’s necrophilic fantasy descriptions
• 52:16 – First murder (Stephen Holmes) in detail
• 59:38 – Burning of the body, Nilsen’s resolve breaks

---

Style & Tone

• Alaina and Ash maintain their trademark mix of empathy, candor, and light irony—even through highly graphic material—making the episode approachable despite its grim content.
• Banter and asides provide comic relief: notably in digressions about zodiac signs (14:37), RuPaul’s Drag Race, and “flow states.”

---

Listener Takeaways

• This episode skillfully mixes forensic detail, psychological insight, and accessible commentary to illuminate the making of Dennis Nilsen’s monstrous persona.
• The hosts encourage kindness to oneself, awareness of mental health, and reflection on the ripple effects of trauma—all while warning that the story only gets darker from here.

---

Stay tuned for Part 2, where the case intensifies and the full horror of Nilsen’s crimes unfolds.

Transcript

[Alina]

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[Ash]

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[Co-host]

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[Ash]

Because I was so amazed by how quickly he replaced our air ducts. I knew I could trust him to change Pop Pop's tube while I was on vacation.

[Co-host]

Make it quick young man.

[Alina]

Aw. See, Pop Pop trusts you. I think we should call a doctor. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years Angie the one you trust Define the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].

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[Alina]

I'm Alina. I'm Ash. And this is morbid.

[Co-host]

This is morbid.

[Alina]

This is morbid. And there's a lot going on.

[Co-host]

My goodness, doesn't it just feel like that every single day you wake up.

[Alina]

Truly more and more going on something very. This is one of those things. It's very chilling and it's like something that I can't stop thinking about and.

[Co-host]

Like checking it on.

[Alina]

So the Today show anchor Savannah Guthrie. Her 84 year old mother Nancy Guthrie has been missing since Saturday night.

[Co-host]

I believe the last time she was Saturday night.

[Alina]

And this story is just wild and heartbreaking and horrifying. I can't stop thinking about it.

[Co-host]

No, I can't either.

[Alina]

We. I mean we. We haven't been so much recently just because life has gotten busy, but we used to be such a Today show host.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God. I used to come over, like every single day and we would just watch hours of the Today show.

[Alina]

Yeah. Love the Today show. And like, so we've been watching Savannah forever and it's years destroying my soul to think of how much pain she must be going through right now. My heart is with her and her family. And this story is just wild. I mean, Nancy is 84 years old. She's just described as sharp as attack, has a little bit of mobility issues, so she wasn't gonna be getting up and leaving on her own.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Alina]

She lives in Arizona. And there's not a lot coming out which leads me to believe that they might have something that they're working on that or at least they're trying to chase something down that maybe they don't want or they. Something happened that they just don't want us to know. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Because they've said they don't believe it's a home invasion. They don't believe it's a robbery gone wrong, but there is evidence of foul play.

[Alina]

Yeah. It sounds like they're. They're pretty much stating now that she was abducted from her bed. An 84 year old woman abducted from her bed.

[Co-host]

Yeah. It's horrific.

[Alina]

It's just horrifying. She needs medication every 24 hours to literally survive.

[Co-host]

It's life threatening if she doesn't have it. And she.

[Alina]

The medicine was left in the home, which is very concerning.

[Co-host]

And now her pacemaker's not connecting to her Apple watch.

[Alina]

Yeah. That was the newest update. So it's all really horrifying. And I'm just thinking about how her family is feeling right now. And I can't even put my brain in that space.

[Co-host]

But it is really bad that, like, by some miracle. Yeah. I'm really found alive and well.

[Alina]

I hope they know more than they're saying. Yeah. And I hope that they find Nancy because it's really. It's the world. Yeah.

[Co-host]

And Savannah has gone through a lot.

[Alina]

Yeah. She just. I think she just came back from like a vocal cord surgery or something. Yeah.

[Co-host]

And just like their family in general, like, it's just so. That's so sad.

[Alina]

But, yeah, we loved the. We always loved the Today show. And, you know, it's just. I was like, oh, yeah, it's you.

[Co-host]

Like you have these people in your house on the daily, so you feel this, like, strange connection to them.

[Alina]

So I felt like super as soon as I heard. I was like, oh, my God.

[Co-host]

It's like your friend is going through this. It feels like yeah.

[Alina]

It's really sad, but just let's. Let's hope they find Nancy.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Savannah's asking for prayers.

[Alina]

Yeah. Like, damn.

[Co-host]

But, yeah.

[Alina]

Just wanted to point that out. Hopefully there's an update and a good one.

[Co-host]

A good one.

[Alina]

I know. Let's manifest that for her. But yeah.

[Co-host]

In another level.

[Alina]

I was gonna say going. Going into another. Hopefully we. A little bit of positivity. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Just bring. Obviously, everybody knows how we feel about ice.

[Alina]

Fuck ice.

[Co-host]

We want them out of Minnesota. We want them out of everywhere.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

But we were thinking of just like anything we can do to help. And Mikey was nice enough to help us find this on Minnesota.org and we will link this in our show notes. They have a full list of small businesses that you can support.

[Alina]

Yes.

[Co-host]

So we'll. We'll link those in the show notes and we'll link them. We'll try to link them on. I don't think Instagram allows links.

[Alina]

It's. I don't think it does.

[Co-host]

It drives me nuts. I'm like, can you allow links?

[Alina]

I know. Meta.

[Co-host]

Well, we'll link it in the show notes. Go find those. It's just wherever you're listening to, if you hit, like, more info, it should be right there.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I know. Sometimes people struggle to find them.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

So check those out. Support some local businesses. Yeah. It's a great way to.

[Alina]

Just because they're going through a lot more than what we're seeing. Yeah. Too. We're being like. That's.

[Co-host]

The news is being suppressed for sure.

[Alina]

So just like, they. They need all the support they can get.

[Co-host]

And anywhere else that you hear advice. A great way to fight back and spend your money in a good way is to shop local.

[Alina]

Exactly.

[Co-host]

Any. Any Etsy shops you can find in areas like that.

[Alina]

Yeah. You know, support local businesses.

[Co-host]

Just in general. It's good to do anyways.

[Alina]

Yeah. That's just good to do anyway.

[Co-host]

On a more, like, lighter note.

[Alina]

And this is. We need it.

[Co-host]

We're really segueing.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I can't believe I'm segwaying here.

[Alina]

I mean, we need a segue.

[Co-host]

We need to say.

[Alina]

Let's just say if, you know, that's just. That's the way the show goes.

[Co-host]

Yeah. That was the business at the top and now we're at the banter. Do you know what a flow state is?

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

What is a flow state?

[Alina]

I think like a flow state. Isn't that when you, like, really lock in?

[Co-host]

I don't. Everybody says, like, I keep seeing it on Tick tock people being like, I, I ate this ice cream or. One thing that I keep seeing people saying is, like, they take a sip of, like, the most delicious latte and they enter a flow state.

[Alina]

Yeah. I think it's like a really locked in state of just like, like, ready to go. I just looked and I just looked it up. It says, like, being in the zone, complete absorption, focus and enjoyment in whatever activity you are engaged. Okay.

[Co-host]

I've enjoyed a lot of things in my life. I don't know that I've ever been in a flow state.

[Alina]

Oh, I' a flow state so many times.

[Co-host]

Tell me when you're in a flow state.

[Alina]

I'm in a flow state.

[Co-host]

Give me examples.

[Alina]

When I can sit down in front of a computer in a Word document and write more than three words, that's a flow state. And I. I enter a full flow state. If I'm tap, tap, tapping and shit is rolling out and it's happening. Flow state. Okay. If I make a perfect coffee in the morning, immediately enter a flow state. Okay.

[Co-host]

So I've probably been in a flow.

[Alina]

I'm sure you have. You're just not recognizing it as a.

[Co-host]

I gotta recognize my flow states.

[Alina]

When I. When I, like, organize and feel like I've actually accomplished some kind of organization. Okay. I will enter a flow state. Okay.

[Co-host]

When I organized my pantry, I was.

[Alina]

In a flow state. You were in a flow state.

[Co-host]

All right, all right, all right.

[Alina]

Yep. Like, I decorate for. And Ash actually helped me this. This time. I decorate for every holiday. Like, the bathroom that, like, my kids generally use, and we decorate it for every holiday. Like, I always put a bunch of it just because it's fun. They get home from school and. Or like, they go to brush their teeth and they're like, oh, my God. It's all these, like, lights and stuff. And so for Valentine's Day this year, we went, like, all out and Ash helped me, like, use the markers that you can write on the glass to like, make little candy hearts on the. I thought that was so cute.

[Co-host]

The little, like, conversation hearts.

[Alina]

And I think in those moments, I enter a flow state. Okay.

[Co-host]

I was. When I was doing those hearts, even though my knees were hurting really bad, I was in a flow state.

[Alina]

Yeah. Yeah. See? All right. Okay. Thank you.

[Co-host]

I thought of this last night because I saw a talk of a lady being like, oh, my God, I just entered a flow state because this latte is so good. And I felt like that was very Gen Z. And I said, have I been in a flow state? What? Ex I said, I wonder if Elena knows what a flow state is. And I saved it for the podcast. I was going to tell you about flow states, but.

[Alina]

But you let it happen.

[Co-host]

I think I'm in a flow state when I shop.

[Alina]

Oh, you definitely are in a flow state.

[Co-host]

Yeah, yeah, I definitely am.

[Alina]

Yeah. Yeah. I think hopefully we can all get into flow states with things we enjoy. Right now there's another tip of the day. Make sure. Make it your fucking mission.

[Co-host]

And tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow, right now.

[Alina]

I mean, try it now. But it's okay if you're not like in that place right now and you need a minute to like, really, you know, get it or figure out what your flow state thing might be. Okay, tomorrow, wake up, attempt flow state, whatever you need to do. Watch one of those late 90s, early 2000s movies that'll get you that flow state. Make an awesome coffee, organize, decorate. Just read a book, write down some shit. Like do whatever you need to do. And to make sure you do not go to bed tomorrow night until you have entered your flow state, even for a second, even if it's just a quick flow state.

[Co-host]

Oh, okay.

[Alina]

I think we all need that every day.

[Co-host]

This is like a glass shatter moment. I enter a flow state when I do. I almost had a sclow fate. I enter a slow fate. I enter a flow state when I do my skincare or in every, in everything shower. That's a flow state. All right, I get it now. I get it.

[Alina]

So see, there you go. Have a good shower or something like tomorrow, make it your business to enter a flow state and then try to enter a flow state just for one second even every day. Just give yourself that one.

[Co-host]

Does a flow state need to be a little bit longer, though? A flow state feels longer than one second.

[Alina]

I don't think there's a. There's a. There's no timeline on flow states. I think as long as you feel like you entered a flow state even for a second, if you drank every.

[Co-host]

Time we said flow state during this, you died.

[Alina]

Yeah, you just.

[Co-host]

That's crazy.

[Alina]

But yeah, do that. I think that that's my advice for the day.

[Co-host]

I like that.

[Alina]

My advice to get.

[Co-host]

I'm all about flow states right now. We ordered Jersey Mike's cookies and I'm going to eat one after this.

[Alina]

Oh, my God, I forgot we had them. Oh, baby.

[Co-host]

Not only did we order like one, not only did we order two, we got two mini boxes. And if they had more than mini boxes, we would get two of those too.

[Alina]

Hell yeah.

[Co-host]

Those put Me in a flow state.

[Alina]

We're going to need that because we're starting a three part series that is going to be a harrowing.

[Co-host]

I have to tell you something. When you say we're starting a three part series, I know it's about to get dark.

[Alina]

Yeah. But you try to enter a fugue state at that point. No, that's what happens.

[Co-host]

But you know what, your three part. I gotta say, let me just like, let me. Let me brown nose you real quick. I really love your three parters because they feel cinematic to me when I sit and listen to them.

[Alina]

Oh, thank you.

[Co-host]

You bet.

[Alina]

Chats. Highest praise I could imagine.

[Co-host]

Let me wipe my nose off.

[Alina]

I love that. Wipe your nose off. No, I appreciate that. This one's gonna be. It's about Dennis Nielsen, the kindly killer he was referred to.

[Co-host]

Feel like I recognize the name.

[Alina]

Yeah, we, we've definitely talked about him before. He's. He's come up on Crime Countdown. Okay. He's a lot. I bet he's.

[Co-host]

There's three parts.

[Alina]

He has many, many victims and he's got a lot going on. Just as a quick little trigger warning, he has necrophilic tendencies. So. So that's going to be part of this.

[Co-host]

He's not the vampire one, is he?

[Alina]

Nope.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Alina]

No, no, that's another guy. Like that's. Isn't that wild that we're just like. No, that's a whole other guy. Yeah. Yep. So we're gonna talk about him and this, this took place in the 80s, so. So that usually that's a fun time for some other things like pop culture.

[Co-host]

But whenever anybody says anything is the 80s anymore, all I can hear is the 80s in my head saying, yeah, it was the 80s, it was the 80s.

[Alina]

So we'll start just get by giving a little overview. It was on the morning of February 8, 1983, which I did not even realize. Yeah. That by the time when this comes out, it's going to be right before it. And then I think the second part will come out like the day after 9th or so. Yeah, I didn't do that on purpose.

[Co-host]

That happened so frequently.

[Alina]

I did not do that on purp. That's so weird.

[Co-host]

That just. I forget which case. But that just happened to me too. And I just didn't reference it.

[Alina]

It happens so often.

[Co-host]

I'm like, that happened to me too.

[Alina]

I want you to know we literally never do that on purpose. I've never chosen a case based on the date being the date it'll come out.

[Co-host]

No, it's Very strange.

[Alina]

Yeah. So weird.

[Co-host]

So those, like, anomalies.

[Alina]

Yeah. So, on that day, February 8, 1983, a plumber working in London's Muswell Hill neighborhood opened a drainage cover behind a Cranley Gardens apartment building. And in that drainage cover, he made a horrific discovery. The drain was completely blocked by pieces of bone and human tissue.

[Co-host]

Oh, fuck.

[Alina]

So he called police.

[Co-host]

That's the best people to call?

[Alina]

Yeah. And detectives arrived on the scene, and they traced the blockage back to one apartment in the building. And when they went into this apartment, there were additional pieces of evidence in this apartment that suggested that things were exponentially worse than they had even originally thought they were.

[Co-host]

And they probably thought things were pretty bad originally.

[Alina]

And that apartment building belonged to Dennis Nilsen.

[Co-host]

That's crazy. I didn't expect that.

[Alina]

Yeah, I know. It's twist.

[Co-host]

Wait, the fact that they could trace, like, the drainage pipes back to him is nuts. Pipes are nuts.

[Alina]

Pipes are crazy.

[Co-host]

I've been talking about pipes for all week.

[Alina]

Pipes really go crazy.

[Co-host]

I had a pipe burst in my garage, and I said, why is there even a pipe in my garage?

[Alina]

It's true. And you said, I don't know. I don't know.

[Co-host]

Don't talk to me about it.

[Alina]

So let's talk about Dennis Nilsen, who he was before he became this Dennis.

[Co-host]

What happened to him?

[Alina]

So he was born November 23, 1945. Does that make him a Sagittarius? No. I think. Does it? Yeah.

[Co-host]

Yeah. I think it's literally, like. Right. I think 21st starts sag.

[Alina]

There we go.

[Co-host]

He's very close to being a Scorp.

[Alina]

Oh, okay.

[Co-host]

Hold on. Let me. Let me make sure. Because sometimes I'm dumb.

[Alina]

Sometimes I'm dumb.

[Co-host]

Sometimes I'm dumb. When it comes to the Zodiac, I'm a new.

[Alina]

You know, I've started another thing. I've started to do. I think I've said this before, but I started doing it again. Again. Because I fell back into it.

[Co-host]

Tell me.

[Alina]

I've started. When I. Like, I'll do something or forget something in the house. And I'm like, you're so stupid. Like, okay, go get. Stop doing that.

[Co-host]

Okay, you're right.

[Alina]

Stop doing that.

[Co-host]

You're right.

[Alina]

Because I literally. I did it yesterday. I was like, oh, my God, I'm so dumb. And then I was like. And literally, if anyone heard me doing this, they'd probably be like, you're losing.

[Co-host]

Like, wow, you're cool.

[Alina]

Because I. I said, no, you're not dumb. You just forgot that thing that doesn't make you dumb.

[Co-host]

Okay, hold on, Ash. No, you're not dumb. You're still learning this, and you're working on it actively. And actually, you were correct this time.

[Alina]

Yeah, there you go. So. No, you're right. Saw.

[Co-host]

I saw an article.

[Alina]

You saw an article that said. You watched an article.

[Co-host]

I watched. I watched an article that did say, our brains believe what we tell them. So if you keep telling your brain you're dumb or you're fat or you're ugly or you're this or you're that.

[Alina]

It'S going to believe it.

[Co-host]

It's going to be like, wow, I suck.

[Alina]

Because your brain. Who is it going to believe? It's you. Like, you're the one that it wants to believe.

[Co-host]

You think you're going to sound kooky. I looked at myself in the mirror the other day, and I said, you look beautiful today.

[Alina]

As you should.

[Co-host]

Yeah, so start doing that, too.

[Alina]

You absolutely should. I. I truly believe, like, we need to be. Stop being so negative to ourselves, because I think a lot of people who are complete ass. Pieces of.

[Co-host]

Want us to.

[Alina]

Out in the world. Well. And also, they're mean to themselves, too.

[Co-host]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Alina]

And they've taught themselves to be these, like, toxically negative people. Yeah. They're like the. And it makes them feel like they've done it to themselves, usually, and then they put it out to everybody else.

[Co-host]

In the words of RuPaul, how the hell are you going to. How are you going to love yourself? How in the hell are you going to love yourself if you can't?

[Alina]

I don't know.

[Co-host]

RuPaul said, I watched so much Drag Race. How did I. I feel like I was stripped of my LGBT card.

[Alina]

You said, I don't know.

[Co-host]

How in the hell are you going to love somebody else? You can't love your Mikey. What does he say?

[Alina]

Mikey. Mikey. How?

[Co-host]

Mikey, Help. Gay help. What is what RuPaul say. How in the hell are you going to love somebody else if you cannot love yourself?

[Alina]

No.

[Co-host]

Why am I saying it so wrong?

[Alina]

I'm looking at it.

[Co-host]

Are we straight right now? Mikey, Mikey, if you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love somebody else?

[Alina]

That's exactly it. Okay. Can I get an amen?

[Co-host]

Can I get an amen? Yeah. Oh, my God. I don't deserve the amen. Don't give it to me.

[Alina]

Oh, my Lord.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

That's crazy. That was crazy. I just looked it up. I just did the. I just did the Capricorn thing, and I said, I'll look it up. Don't worry. Guys.

[Co-host]

That was the opposite Scary of a flow state.

[Alina]

That was.

[Co-host]

That was the opposite. Do you ever do something like that and you say, yeah, do I have. Of course. Cognitive issue?

[Alina]

Yes, all the time.

[Co-host]

I'm gonna do it Sudoku later.

[Alina]

Anyways, anyways, the whole point of that was stop telling. Saying you're dumb and being mean to yourself. That's another piece of advice. Do that. Yeah, it's really hard right now.

[Co-host]

Do crosswords too.

[Alina]

Do that.

[Co-host]

Holy.

[Alina]

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[Co-host]

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[Alina]

So. Yeah, so Dennis Nielsen was a Sagittarius and he was born. That's where we.

[Co-host]

That's the roundabout where we started.

[Alina]

And he was born in. In Scotland.

[Co-host]

Oh him. For doing that.

[Alina]

Right. Like being. People don't do that. No. Dick, that's not Scottish. So this. He was the second of three children born to Elizabeth and Olav Mokshin. Name.

[Co-host]

Sorry, but it's always the middle child.

[Alina]

They later adopted the surname Nielsen. Got it. They had met several years earlier when Olav saved Elizabeth from being attacked by another man.

[Co-host]

Wow, that's a great meet. What a meet. Cute. Yeah.

[Alina]

They started dating and very soon after they were talking about marriage. And on May 2, 1942, they married. Love Olav. And Elizabeth's first child was Olav junior. He came a short time after they got married and he was followed quickly by two other children, Dennis and Sylvia. Despite their whirlwind romance and growing family, Olav senior never really took to the whole marriage and family life. So he was just Frequently absent, not from home. Yeah, He. That was either due to his responsibilities in the military or his general uninterest in being a father. Okay.

[Co-host]

We're not sure which. Or it was an amalgamation, kind of.

[Alina]

A little bit of both.

[Co-host]

Oh, okay.

[Alina]

As a result, Elizabeth continued to live with her parents and the children were raised as much by them as by their mother.

[Co-host]

Well, that's kind of nice. I loved my grandma.

[Alina]

That can be great.

[Co-host]

And I still do, in fact.

[Alina]

Yeah. Years later, when he reflected about his parents marriage, Dennis wrote. Because he did write a memoir, by the way.

[Co-host]

Oh, no. Yeah, they always do.

[Alina]

They always do. He wrote, in the heat and uncertainty of war, my father married my mother primarily on lustful grounds and ignoring some irreconcilable cultural and personality differences which doomed the match to failure.

[Co-host]

Oh, fuck.

[Alina]

Which is like, weirdly insightful.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that is insightful.

[Alina]

Although their father was hardly ever home and really only saw the children on rare occasions, his presence, or maybe more, his absence was pretty influential on the family. The detached nature of Olav and Elizabeth's relationship appears to have filtered down to their children. And it kind of prevented them not just forming a bond with their parents, but with one another as well. Oh, yeah. This led to all the Nilsen children, but Dennis in particular, becoming very isolated and withdrawn. For Dennis, this meant spending hours alone every day, escaping into an increasingly intense fantasy world. In fact, Nielsen even described himself as, quote, an unhappy, brooding child, secretive and stricken with inferiority.

[Co-host]

Oh, that's awful.

[Alina]

Horrifying.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

It's true that Dennis felt a very tenuous connection to his parents and siblings, but the family wasn't entirely, like, fractured. Yeah. Because his grandparents were such a constant presence in his early life, he formed a very big, like, very strong bond with his grandfather, Andrew White. Unlike Dennis's mother, who was generally detached and permissive, Andrew was actually a harsh and deeply religious man with an incredibly rigid sense of morality.

[Co-host]

Oh, I was relieved for, like one second.

[Alina]

Well, the thing is, when it came to his grandson, he was very warm and compassionate. Okay. And it was really maybe the only connection Dennis had to the world outside his fantasies. And because of this, Dennis was devastated when in the fall of 1951, 62 year old Andrew died from a heart attack while he was on a fishing boat.

[Co-host]

That is so young.

[Alina]

Yeah. In one of his earliest memories, Nilsen recalled being brought into the house during the funeral to view his grandfather's body. He said granddad was wearing glasses and expensive long johns. He was barefooted and needed a shave. He looked as if he was sleeping.

[Co-host]

Oh, that's really sad.

[Alina]

Many years later, Dennis would trace his pathology back to this event. He wrote, my troubles started there. It blighted my personality permanently. I've spent all my emotional life searching for my grandfather. And in my formative years, no one was there to take his place. Father and grandfather had walked out on me, probably for a better place, leaving me behind in this not so good place alone.

[Co-host]

Oh, man.

[Alina]

Which, if he wasn't such a complete piece of shit, you'd be like, oh, my God. That's so sad.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

You feel bad for the kid. Exactly. In the wake of his grandfather's death, Dennis became much more isolated. He spent his free time by the water, watching the fishing boats come and go. And during one of these occasions, he claimed to have walked into the ocean to try to end his life. Oh, fuck. But he was saved by an older boy who spotted him from the beach and pulled him back to shore. Now, in his memoirs, he claimed that this savior of his potentially sexually assaulted him. Oh. But because he was unconscious at the time, he was unable to provide any details of the attack or his attacker. Okay. That said, Nilsen himself acknowledges his tendency to blend fantasy with memory and reality with not reality when recounting events from his life. So it's kind of impossible to know which aspects of his early biography are true and which are pieces he made up, you know?

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's tough.

[Alina]

Not because they never were able to, like, identify this person. They don't even know if he actually walked into the ocean.

[Co-host]

Exactly.

[Alina]

Right. It might have never happened. Okay. Now, not long after the death of his father, Elizabeth married a second time to a man named Adam Scott. Adam Scott is not the one that was on Parks and Recreation.

[Co-host]

Oh, I forgot.

[Alina]

That was Adam Scott, not Ben Wyatt. I was like. I second guessed myself immediately.

[Co-host]

Oh, that's why I was confused. I was like, is his name Adam? You were talking. His government name.

[Alina]

Yeah, his government name. Not Ben Wyatt. Unlike her previous husband, Scott was a local man with strong connections to the area and a solid work history in the building trade. He was, according to author Brian Masters, quote, a quiet, solid and reliable man who gave her four more children in four years. Okay. Wow. Yeah. A lot of kids getting busy. So if Elizabeth Nilsen had maintained a casual and detached relationship to her children before her second marriage, she definitely doubled that. Marrying Scott and babe, why'd you have four more? And adding four more children, also, the additional kids in the house pushed Dennis further away from his mother and deeper into isolation. He wrote in those days, I could hate Adam Scott very easily. I sometimes felt that we, the Nilsen kids, were an impediment to my mother's fulfillment in her new life and family.

[Co-host]

A very common feeling it is.

[Alina]

As he grew older, Dennis was able to make a few friends, but he still chose to spend a lot of his free time alone. When school ended, every day he would go home, put on his headphones, and just lose himself in music for hours at time a of time. Or he would go into the woods and just go on long walks. When he was 14, he joined army Cadet Force, a military prep organization for teenage boys. His participation in the group gave him a structure that he was definitely lacking at home. And he gave him kind of a sense of purpose in a life that was, like, a little chaotic at times. He said, I felt proud and useful in my battle dress. And he also tried to. Tried to become like. He tried his hand at sports basically, too, but that didn't really panel for him. Okay, so it seemed like the military stuff, like, was the thing that really tickled his fancy. Yeah. For the most part, his early life was that kind of like most boys at the time. But an incident in his mid teens would definitely disrupt that path of normalcy and provide some pretty serious consequences in his later life, I think. One afternoon when Dennis was about 14, a local elderly man from the village went missing, and the whole town turned out to look for him. And Dennis and another boy, Gordon Berry, decided to search down by the River Uji, where they eventually stumbled upon this old man's body. The local doctor later said that in his confusion, the man had probably wandered out of his house in the middle of the night and fallen into the river and drowned.

[Co-host]

Oh, that's so sad.

[Alina]

Nielsen said he reminded me of my grandfather, and the images were firmly fixed in my mind. I could never comprehend the reality of death. Math.

[Co-host]

That's very. Stand by me.

[Alina]

Yeah. When he was 15, he decided to leave school and join the military. And In September of 1961, he reported to London for duty. It was, he hoped, an opportunity for a fresh start to, like, get away from this tiny village and all the limitations he felt were there and to learn a new trade that hopefully was just gonna carry him to adulthood. But if he was looking for, like, a whole new experience, which he definitely was, he was definitely disappointed with the reality of army life, especially for someone so young.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Rather than being sent off to some exotic location like he thought he would be, Dennis and his peers spent the next four years stationed in Aldershot a military town in Hampshire, New England. Their life was pretty much the same as it had been when he before he left home with military responsibilities just replacing schoolwork and his fellow soldiers replacing his classmates. In 1964, he passed his exams and was promoted to the rank of private, which was an important step in what he thought was going to be a lifelong career in the military. And while this was a momentous occasion for him, his entire experience in the military had been undermined by his growing awareness of his own sexuality and his interest in men. Sure. Especially at the time period. This was tough. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Not accepted. And especially in the military back then.

[Alina]

He was repressing everything, though. And the repression of those urges was always a. Accompanied by like deep guilt and shame.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

And he would carry that with him for a long time. He later said, I was always afraid that I must somehow look different and that my innermost thoughts would be exposed. Oh, that's sad. Which is so sad. It is very sad. But he's such an. Like it said, that's. It's like, you see, you hear these things. And again, this was. He's still a kid when this. Right. So you feel bad for, like we said, feel bad for the kid. And as is often the case, Dennis was only able to conceal this for so long. And in his mid-20s, he was engaging in a lot of like, you know, one night stands with men. Just like quick, anonymous sexual encounters.

[Co-host]

I mean, you're living your life and yeah, you have to. People have needs. You can't just deny yourself forever.

[Alina]

And he was. He made sure they were devoid of a lot of emotion or attachment because that was kind of his life up until that moment.

[Co-host]

So common too.

[Alina]

And this is, this works for some people, of course, but for Dennis, it was different.

[Co-host]

He was looking.

[Alina]

He'd always been a loner and he had created this rich fantasy life in which the needs and wants of others were relevant. His were the important ones.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Alina]

Now, as an adult, it was as though he was blurring fantasy and reality, treating the real people he came in contact with, who came and went in his life as though they were dolls, that he could just act out life.

[Co-host]

And that's frankly disturbing.

[Alina]

And then he could just put them away when he was done.

[Co-host]

And life does not work like that.

[Alina]

Nope. In the fall of 1972, his career in the military came to an end when he was discharged after 11 years.

[Co-host]

Wow.

[Alina]

The following day, he turned 27 years old and found himself right back where he started.

[Co-host]

That's crazy. Like almost all of your 20s just gone. And then you're asked to start a new life. Or expected to.

[Alina]

Yeah. Now he was living in his mother's house, unemployed and alone again. His decision to leave the military was pretty simple. He just wanted to try a career outside the army. Yeah. But now that he was out, he kind of felt like unmoored. Like, where do I go?

[Co-host]

That happens so often.

[Alina]

Yeah. For five weeks, he sat in his mother's house wondering what the fuck to do with his life. And his mother, on the other hand, was more concerned with his lack of interest in finding a wife. A short time later, Dennis's brother Olav, Olav Jr told their mother that he suspected Dennis was gay. And this speculation. No. And this speculation, Dennis would never forgive him for.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I'd be pretty fucking if you don't out other people.

[Alina]

But if she believed it was true. Dennis's mother never said anything to him about it, preferring instead to just ignore it and let Dennis have his private thoughts. And that was also not healthy. No. Olaf's speculation about his brother's sexuality ruined their relationship.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

It just wasn't something that was able to be recovered.

[Co-host]

That's really sad.

[Alina]

It is sad. In December 1972, he moved to London and enrolled at the Metropolitan Police Station Training School. He was determined to parlay his pretty exemplary military service into a career in law enforcement. Now, which is a pretty, like, you know, lateral move. Yeah. Dennis completed his training in April 1973 and entered the Metropolitan Police Force as a junior cadet, which is an entry level position that, while technically a member of the police force, was more like admin and required the supervision of a parent officer.

[Co-host]

You gotta, like, work your way up the ladder.

[Alina]

And when he enrolled in the training program, he envisioned finding the same level of camaraderie that he loved in the service. Like his military brothers and sisters were like BFFs.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

But he learned that the police force wasn't built around friendships, and he found himself lonely and isolated. Throughout his youth, he had dealt with frequent isolation and loneliness by retreating into his fantasy world. And in his efforts to avoid loneliness, he started exploring, you know, the countless pubs and nightclubs around London, where he eventually discovered that, you know, that the culture that he could exist in as he was like the gay culture. Right. And in the small number of gay bars around the city, he kind of felt like he had found somewhere. Yeah. For the first time in his life, he didn't have to hide who he really was from the world. But his unrealistic expectations made his early experiences with this community. Deeply disappointing.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Alina]

He wasn't finding a lot of long term relationship prospects here because he wasn't.

[Co-host]

Really looking for that or treating people that well.

[Alina]

It's like he kind of. He like wanted it, but he wasn't treating people that way. So it's like he wanted that. He just wasn't.

[Co-host]

He didn't seem to know how to go about it.

[Alina]

Yeah. And for a man with such a deep and powerful fear of abandonment, the casual, like, culture of like hookups and one night stands that he was involving himself in now, especially in the early 70s, and damage, that was like the thing. It proved very destabilizing and demoralizing for him.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

He wrote in his memoir, I was left with an endless search through the soul destroying pub scene and its resulting one night stands. A house is not a home and sex is not a relationship. We would only lend each other our bodies in a vain search for inner peace. Wow. I know. It's like he comes so like, so like deep. Yeah. Now, during his first year with the police force, he was developing like an identity and a philosophy that was very much at odds with his professional life. Throughout his time in the military, he had developed a pretty progressive, leftist worldview that made it pretty impossible to ignore the imperialistic nature of the British military. Oh, okay. That was at least partially what motivated him to not seek a second term in the army. He was like, I just don't think it.

[Co-host]

It doesn't align with my beliefs.

[Alina]

Now, as a young police officer, he was kind of in the same position, enforcing laws that seemed outdated and targeting groups that he himself was a part of.

[Co-host]

Right.

[Alina]

To make matters worse, in August 1974, he received word that his father, Olav Senior, had died at the UK military base in Ghana. He had left his children a bit of money, but that was it. Given how disillusioned he was with his circumstances, he waited until the end of the year, and in December, he quit his position with the police force.

[Co-host]

Okay. It is so easy for your finances to get off track. And then when they're off track, it just feels like it's so hard to get them back on the track. You know, sometimes you forget to pay a bill or you forget to pay a certain membership, and then you're like, oh, crap, I haven't paid that membership in three months. And then you're in big trouble. But guess what? There's someone here to help. Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money makes finances easier to understand by pulling all of your accounts into one dashboard, checking savings loans and even investments. It automatically sorts transactions to show where money is going, and it highlights spending habits that are easy to miss. You can set custom budgets, receive smart insights, and get real time alerts when bills are due or when large purchases hit you have unwanted subscriptions. They're easy to cancel right in the app with just a few taps. With smart organization and personalized tools, Rocket Money gives users the clarity they need to take control without spending hours each week trying to manage it all. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Morbid that's RocketMoney.com Morbid RocketMoney.com Morbid Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. Designed for layering and mixing, each piece helps build a timeless wardrobe made to last with versatile silhouettes and thoughtful details. They're the kind of styles that you'll wear again and again and again. They've got the wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last 100 organic cotton sweaters, premium denim made with stretch for all day comfort luxe cotton cashmere blends perfect for the changing seasons. And Quince works directly with safe ethical factories. They cut out the middlemen so that you're not paying for the brand markup, just high quality clothing. I shop so frequently at Quints, I actually got the cutest pair of jeans the other day and the denim truly is made for all day comfort with like a little stretch in there. I was in a bathroom. This girl was like, girl, where did you get your jeans? I said honey, you gotta check out Quince. And listen, I'm telling all of you right now, check out Quince. The sweaters, the denim, the vegan leather, all of it. They even have home stuff too. So refresh your wardrobe and your life with quince. Go to quince.commorbid for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.commorbid free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commorbid they say time waits for no one and neither should Payday. To keep your money moving in the direction of your dreams, get Earn in Earn it is an app that lets you access your pay as you earn it. Up to 150 a day with a max of $1,000 between paydays. Just download the Earn an app and start accessing your pay as you work. Any money you access, plus optional tips to help keep the app running, are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. I literally love Earn in. Realistically, I would spend that money on probably a good sale some Harry Styles tickets. I would say just any extra money to get me Harry Styles tickets I'm down for and earn and could provide that for me. Download Earn in today spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store. When you download the Earn an app, type in Morbid under Podcast. Earn an As a financial technology company, not a bank, access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. Expedited transfers available for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. Available in select states. Terms and restrictions apply. Visit Earnin.com for full details. Download Earn it today and take control of your pay.

[Alina]

Now. Leaving the police force at the end of the year was intended to be a big life change that would set him on the right path. Unfortunately, it turned out to be just another exercise in disappointment when the f when the money his father left him started to run out, he was forced to go out and find whatever job he could, which at the time was not really easy. He ended up working a series of pretty unfulfilling jobs. You know, he worked at a job center. He just did things that like, he were not his passion at all. Yeah, it was there that Nielsen would have another powerful experience that, in retrospect, would have sinister undertones. Oh, While working at the job center in 1975, Dennis met a young man named David Painter who came in looking for work. During his visit, Painter mentioned he was currently out of work and without a place to stay. At the time, there were no jobs for the young man, so he left without anything. A few days later, however, Dennis ran into Painter on the street by chance, and knowing his circumstances, he invited David Painter back to his apartment. What Dennis didn't know at the time was that David was only 17 years old and had run away from home and was reported missing by his parents. Oh. When they got to Nilsen's apartment, the two watched a movie, had several drinks, and then Peter became tired and went to Nilsson's bed to lay down. Misreading that situation, Dennis followed and tried to engage in sex with David Painter. So he David immediately rejected him and was like, nope, that's not what I was doing. Yeah. And eventually Nielsen gave up and a few hours later The.

[Co-host]

Eventually.

[Alina]

Yeah, exactly. Very telling. A few hours later, Painter awoke to find Dennis standing over him with a video camera, filming him while he slept.

[Co-host]

What the.

[Alina]

The details that of what happened next are pretty murky, but in like, kind of confusing. But when he woke to the camera in his face, he was clearly naturally very frightened and upset and tried to leave the apartment. And Nilsen tried to stop him, but David, apparently, according to Nielsen, became aggressive and began trashing the apartment, which I think he was probably fighting to get out of the apartment. Yeah. He cut his himself on a glass partition in the process. Oh, wow. It was only then that Dennis finally called the police in an ambulance.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Alina]

When he was interviewed by police at the same station, by the way, that he'd worked as an officer later that afternoon, he feigned ignorance, claiming that the young man, quote, went berserk for no clear reason. That usually happens.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Alina]

Although it seems highly unlikely that nothing happened in Dennis's apartment. David Painter's parents were reluctant to press charges, and the police were satisfied that if nothing else, Painter hadn't been sexually assaulted. So the whole thing ended that afternoon with Dennis being let off with a warning.

[Co-host]

You have to wonder if he was sexually assaulted.

[Alina]

And I wonder if his parents didn't want to press charges because they just didn't want him involved in what they assumed was something untoward. Yeah. You know, now obviously, most people don't end up going home with someone who ends up being a prolific serial killer. No, luckily, thankfully, and in the context of Dennis Nilsen's life and later murderous activities, that incident, even though it wasn't viewed as bad enough, quote, unquote, to press charges at the time, it can be viewed as a, like, pre. Contemplative phase.

[Co-host]

Yeah, for sure.

[Alina]

Where he's beginning to explain, explore these darker fantasies and considering whether or not to act on.

[Co-host]

Yeah, definitely.

[Alina]

This was clearly an escalation, a slight one. Now, while there's evidence to indicate Nielsen was at least considering his predatory impulses at the time, the period between 1975 and 1977 was a lot of, like, personal growth and contentment for him, which is interesting. Yeah. After a few years of one night stands and hookups and casual sex, Dennis met David Galachan in November 1975. And by the end of their first night drinking together at the bar, he and David agreed to move in together. Wow. Very quick. Using what remained of the money left him by his father, Dennis and David found a small apartment on Melrose Avenue in London. And Dennis even worked it out. So that would have Exclusive use of the garden and patio in the back of the house. Nice. Oh, no.

[Co-host]

Hate that, actually.

[Alina]

Yeah, it's not great. Dennis had finally found someone with who he could spend his nights. Not long after moving in together, they got a dog, a black and white mutt they named bleep bleep. Yes. Stop. That's actually hilarious.

[Co-host]

I don't want them to have a dog.

[Alina]

They spent their days working on the garden and their nights watching films and listening to music.

[Co-host]

Oh, I hate how lovely this is.

[Alina]

Yeah. It seemed, at least to Dennis, as though he'd finally lucked into a stable relationship. Okay. Things. Though it might have only been in his head that it was like that. What? According to author Brian Masters, quote, the relationship was nonetheless fragile because it was relentlessly artificial. Oh. As he'd done with several other men before, for much shorter period of times, Dennis had built up this relationship with David into something it almost certainly was not. Although it's true they did share an apartment, and occasionally they slept together. According to Masters, quote, there was no deep bond of affection between them, and David was remote and uninterested.

[Co-host]

Did they get a dog named Leap?

[Alina]

They did.

[Co-host]

Oh.

[Alina]

In truth, David and Dennis's relationship was one of convenience. Dennis paid most of the bills and made all the decisions, and David continued carrying on other relationships with other people.

[Co-host]

Oh, no.

[Alina]

That the relationship lasted two years was due in large part to the fact that David had such a passive personality that he was willing to go along with whatever Dennis wanted. Most of the time, it was just kind of like whatever. Yikes. It was more like roommates with benefits a little bit.

[Co-host]

That's rough.

[Alina]

But Dennis saw it as like this beautiful domestic life. Despite this, not a lot of relationships can last without 100% effort and commitment. Yeah. And it wasn't just that David contributed far less to the household than Dennis or that he continued to see other men. There was also the fact that the two shared very little in common. And according to Dennis, David was, quote. According to Dennis, David was, quote, inferior intellectually and dependent socially.

[Co-host]

That's rude.

[Alina]

Yeah. By the summer of 1977, both men had begun seeing other people and barely spoke to each other when they were at home. Oh, wow. Finally, in late summer, it had become clear that this was coming to an end. Yeah. According to David, he simply packed up his bags one night and left in search of somewhere new to peace out. In his version of events, Dennis says that he insisted that David move out. It's unclear which one of these is accurate, but because of Dennis's really deep fears of abandonment and his propensity for fantasy and embellishment. It's entirely possible that he created his complete own narrative just to protect himself from the psychological pain of this whole thing. Yeah. Damn.

[Co-host]

This is fucking tragic.

[Alina]

In the months that followed this, Dennis filled most of his time with work. Working his regular job at the employment center and picking up shifts with a catering company. And when he wasn't working, he could be found at one of the local pubs. But if he hoped either of these things were going to improve his life, he quickly learned otherwise. The bars were still full of people who seemed pretty uninterested in having a relationship with him. And at both jobs, his employers frowned upon his politics and, you know, life in general. Yeah. And as a result, he was just let down by everything. Feeling aimless, he applied to the branch chairman's school in the fall of 1978. And he felt very at home there in the intellectual and political circles of academia. At 33 years old, he was somewhat older than the other students. But his passion for intellectual subjects and politics made him fit right in the new environment of school was exciting, but it did little to curb his loneliness. He was still cripplingly lonely.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

During this time, Dennis had many one night stands. But every time he met someone that he even had a little bit of interest in, like a long term relationship with, they just rebuffed him. Just wasn't working out.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

He was clearly off putting.

[Co-host]

I was gonna say, like, clearly you gotta.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

There's gotta be something up.

[Alina]

These disappointments caused Dennis to retreat deeper into his fantasies each time.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Alina]

Which by then had grown very dark.

[Co-host]

Well, you have to wonder, and this is obviously just speculative, but that he becomes a necrophiliac.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Serial killer.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I do wonder if some of these one night stands, the. There had to have been some off putting sexual tendencies or something like that for sure.

[Alina]

For.

[Co-host]

For there to not be repeat nights. Exactly.

[Alina]

Yeah. And.

[Co-host]

And of course that's speculative, but.

[Alina]

But it kind of you wonders. And Dennis had a like, fetish for deaths. Yeah. Like she was very interested in it.

[Co-host]

That could make sex weird.

[Alina]

It could for sure. But by this time he had stopped resisting this and he started indulging it. Okay, he said later. I put talc on my face to erase the living color. I smeared charcoal under my eyes to accentuate a hollow dark look. I lie staring eyed on the bed in front of the mirror and let my saliva foam and drip from my mouth. I step outside myself in detached imagination.

[Co-host]

That might be the Darkest you've ever said to me.

[Alina]

Yeah. What? Like what? Actual.

[Co-host]

That's like some. Out of a horror movie.

[Alina]

And he would just do this a lot. Yeah.

[Co-host]

That wasn't just a one time thing. No, even a one time thing.

[Alina]

I cannot get past. And fantasy wasn't the only place that he was starting to experiment with, like, risky and, like, interesting behavior. He'd also started creating dangerous situations where he could rescue his sexual partners from danger. Oh.

[Co-host]

Which is very interesting because that's how his father and mother got together.

[Alina]

Right. Yeah. One night in late fall, 1978, after inviting three men back to his house for a drink.

[Co-host]

Damn.

[Alina]

I know.

[Co-host]

Sharpshooter there.

[Alina]

Yes. He's. He's hedging his bets. Dennis waited until all three had passed out before placing his winter jacket on the stove and setting it on fire. After he gathered up his dog and went out into the garden, the apartment filled up with smoke. When the men woke up, Dennis burst back into the apartment, putting out the small fire and opening all the windows, appearing to have saved their lives.

[Co-host]

What the fuck?

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Almost like, damn, you're gonna risk your apartment just to be a hero?

[Alina]

Just to be a hero?

[Co-host]

That's a complex and a half.

[Alina]

And in retrospect, these dark fantasies and risky behaviors would be seen as clear indicators that Nielsen was spiraling deeper into something bad.

[Co-host]

Big time.

[Alina]

He later said, I was becoming depressed and conf. Condition to a belief that I was impossible to live with. But rather than seek any kind of medical or psychological help, he found a new way to cope with his stress, anxiety, and anxiety, while also indulging his fantasies.

[Co-host]

I feel like it's probably not good.

[Alina]

By the end of December, his isolation and loneliness had become unbearable. And on the night of December 30, he mustered the energy to get dressed and headed out to a local pub. After spending weeks alone in his apartment feeling sorry for himself. He was very vulnerable and precarious. This emotionally and just in general. Exactly. And he was also desperate to find someone to just stop the negative thoughts that were running through his head. And on top of that, he was certain that anyone that he met that night was just gonna leave him. Yeah, like, he just didn't want people to leave him. That's all. It's very Jeffrey Dahmer. And he later said that night, things began to go terribly and horribly wrong.

[Co-host]

I think they had already started.

[Alina]

They certainly did. Rather than visit one of his usual bars, he went to a different one. He went to Crinklewood, the Cricklewood Arms, which was an Irish bar near his apartment. He sat there and he drank pint after pint of Guinness and he spent the first hour. I know. I love Guinness. Dennis spent the first hour or so of the night watching people in the bar, just kind of like chatting with whoever sat down next to him, but not really making any attempt for big conversation. Eventually he found himself talking with a young Irishman who introduced himself and as Steven, years later, Nielsen would tell police, police, he had, quote, no idea who this youth was.

[Co-host]

This really is very Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Alina]

Yeah. As Steven had no identification on him at the time or anything to indicate who he was or where he'd come from. That said, he wouldn't have needed a driver's license or some other ID to tell that who he was talking to was still very much a teenager. He looked it e He was Stephen Holmes, a 14 year old runaway from Kilburn.

[Co-host]

Oh God, a baby.

[Alina]

Stephen had been out at a rockabilly concert that night and was waiting for a bus outside the Cricklewood Arms when he decided to go inside to get warm. Nielsen convinced Stephen to come back to his apartment where they spent a few hours drinking and listening to music until the boy passed. He passed out on Nielsen's bed, though Dennis swore there was no sexual contact between them. He said, quote, I snuggled up to him and put my arm around him. Then he pulled the blanket down and looked, looked at the boy who was undressed.

[Co-host]

Sexual contact.

[Alina]

He said, I remember thinking that because it was morning he would wake and leave me.

[Co-host]

Oh, no.

[Alina]

Dennis looked down at the pile of clothes on the floor beside the bed and spotted his necktie. He said, I remember thinking that I wanted him to stay with me over the new year, whether he wanted to or not.

[Co-host]

Oh.

[Alina]

Dennis reached down and picked up the tie and then he slow, slowly and carefully ran it underneath Stephen's neck. He said, I quickly straddled him and pulled tight for all I was worth. At that moment, Stephen awoke with a jolt, obviously struggling and they, they fell to the floor. But Nilsen ended up on top of him again. And unfortunately, Holmes was no match for his very much adult attacker. And with a minute or two he lost consciousness again. Aware that he could wake up at any moment now, Nielsen went to the kitchen and filled a bucket with water. Water. He returned to the other room, dragged Stephen over to the bucket on the floor and held him by his hair, pushing his head under the water and held it there until he couldn't see bubbles anymore.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

Once Stephen. Brutal. Once Stephen was dead, Nilsen Dragged his body over to a chair and propped him up in a seat. And then he said, I just sat there shaking, trying to think clearly about what I had just done. It was still early in the morning, so everything's quiet. But he knew everybody was going to wake up in a matter of hours. What am I going to do? So he spent the next hour or so cleaning up the room where the murder had occurred. Then he moved Steven's body to the bathtub, where he carefully washed the entire body before putting it back in bed.

[Co-host]

Ew.

[Alina]

All the while, he was fully expecting a knock at the door, certain that someone had traced Stephen back to his apartment. When a few days passed and he's kept Steven's body and that no one ever came, Nielsen's anxiety eased. And he said there appeared to be no reports in the paper of the missing boy or the usual public anxiety that followed the disappearance of a child. It was only then that it occurred to Dennis that he'd gotten away with it.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's not good.

[Alina]

With the act of murder now behind him in the natural process of decomposition having set in.

[Co-host]

Uh huh.

[Alina]

Dennis grew disinterested in the body of his former guests and concluded that he needed to get rid of it.

[Co-host]

His former guest.

[Alina]

At first, he thought it would be easiest to disarticulate the limbs and break down the body by boiling it.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

So he went so far as to buy a large electric carving knife and a stock pot for this purpose. But when he got home, it occurred to him that that was going to be pretty arduous, that task.

[Co-host]

This is so gnarly.

[Alina]

And he said it would. He felt like it would be beyond his capabilities. And he said it was also unlikely to produce the desired result that he's looking for. Instead, he pulled up several floorboards in the kitchen of his apartment and found the space beneath to be pretty big and actually pretty cool in temperature. Perfect place to put a body.

[Co-host]

Oh.

[Alina]

So after dressing Steven in the clothes that he had come to the apartment in, Dennis lowered his body into the space under the floor and put the boards back. And now he's got a makeshift tomb for Steven under his kitchen.

[Co-host]

What the.

[Alina]

A week passed, and Dennis's curiosity finally got the better of him.

[Co-host]

No, no, don't you.

[Alina]

I wondered if his body had changed at all or if he had continued to decompose. So he pulled up the boards and removed Stephen's body from beneath the floor to find that, to his great surprise, very little decomposition had occurred. It seemed that the conditions under the Floor were such that the natural processes of decomp had been stalled. Seeing the body in that state. And this is a trigger warning. Dennis was excited by this, and he violated Steven's body multiple times before returning it to the space beneath the floor where it would stay being periodically taken out for eight months.

[Co-host]

Eight months?

[Alina]

Eight months.

[Co-host]

How fucking cold was it?

[Alina]

I don't think it stayed in great condition.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

Yeah. Now in the months after this or the month after this? Months. What the fuck, brother? So in the month after this, Dennis kept a pretty low profile. He went to work occasionally, went to the bars, but mostly he stayed at home and avoided inviting anyone back to his apartment.

[Co-host]

I wonder why.

[Alina]

At times he said he considered turning himself in and confessing.

[Co-host]

I doubt it.

[Alina]

But the thought of spending the rest of his life in jail was enough to deter him from doing that. Besides, he had no intention of doing anything like that ever again. So he said, you know what? I fucked up.

[Co-host]

I don't think you can just, like, live the rest of your life.

[Alina]

Yeah. He was like, you know what? I'm not going to do it again.

[Co-host]

Like, once you do that once, I don't think you necessarily stop doing that.

[Alina]

So he continued to live his low key life for several months until the secret under his foreboards became a little too much to bear, at least in his own mind. One night in October 1979, he pulled up the floorboards in the kitchen and removed the desiccated body of Stephen from the hiding space and carried it out to the back garden under the COVID of darkness. There he had built a small bonfire and he placed Stephen Holmes's body into the bonfire and stood and watched the flames engulf every part that it would.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Alina]

Once the fire had burned away all it was capable of destroying, he put the fire out and removed the remaining bone fragments and he buried that in the backyard. Maybe it was because he'd rid himself of his terrible secret under the floorboards of the kitchen. Or maybe he just lost his ability to control his clear impulses here. Whatever the case, within a month of destroying Stephen Holmes's remains, Dennis seemed to have forgotten his promise to himself about not committing another violent act of feeling out of feeling. And we're gonna end there for part one.

[Co-host]

That's probably good.

[Alina]

Part two is going to be rough. All right. This was rough, obviously, but horrific. It's gonna be rough.

[Co-host]

Why is he called the kindly killer?

[Alina]

Do we.

[Co-host]

Do we get into that?

[Alina]

We will get into that, yeah.

[Co-host]

Interesting.

[Alina]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Because nothing about this so far is coming Kindly, now. All right, what's your fun fact for me, Boyd?

[Alina]

One in 18 people have a third nipple.

[Co-host]

Wow.

[Alina]

It's called polythelia, and it's caused by a mutation in inactive genes.

[Co-host]

How many? One in 18.

[Alina]

One in 18. That's a lot of people. Yeah.

[Co-host]

What you guys doing out here with your third nipple?

[Alina]

Right. What you. What you doing out here?

[Co-host]

Damn. Is it easy to have a nipple removed? I wonder.

[Alina]

I don't know.

[Co-host]

Like, I wonder if you have a third nipple if you can just get it removed.

[Alina]

I don't know. Do you have a third nipple? Everybody let us know. Know.

[Co-host]

I don't.

[Alina]

You know, let us know. I don't, but think about, like.

[Co-host]

Like, dinner parties or, like, at a wedding, probably, like, two people there have a third nipple.

[Alina]

I didn't know where you were going with that, and for a second, I thought you were being like, imagine at a dinner party, you just, like, have a third nipple.

[Co-host]

Like, I was like, what? No, I meant, like, imagine. I was thinking. I was saying, like, large gaps.

[Alina]

Yeah. Like people, like, wow. Like a couple of these people have a third nipple.

[Co-host]

Potentially, yeah. One in 18 seems nuts.

[Alina]

That is crazy.

[Co-host]

I don't know about that.

[Alina]

I'm saying.

[Co-host]

But you say it's a fact. So get crazy out here with your third nipple. Get crazy. We hope you do.

[Alina]

We hope you keep listening, and we.

[Co-host]

Hope you keep it weird. Keep it so weird that you tell us if you have a third nipple. Yeah. I'd like to know if you're willing to share.

[Alina]

It's weird in a cool way. Yeah. Rock on.

[Co-host]

With your third nipple. With your bad self.

[Alina]

With your bad.

[Co-host]

With your third nipple.

[Alina]

Sam. Sa. Sam. Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles, in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end. Huh? Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace. Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just. Just wire stuff. Nibbles would have loved you like a brother. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie, the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail].

[Co-host]

This episode is brought to you by Kleenex lotion tissues. Cold season shows up like one of those mysteries that always keeps you guessing. Luckily, you can be prepared with Kleenex lotion tissues that protect, soothe, and moisturize your skin when you need it most. Keep them close wherever your day takes you, whether you're unraveling a mystery or facing a sniffle. Kleenex lotion tissues with coconut oil and aloe are the little comfort that goes a long way during cold and flu season. For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.