Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell

Summary

Morbid Podcast: Emma Cunningham and the Murder of Harvey Burdell

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Episode Date: December 1, 2025
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

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Episode Overview

In this riveting episode, Ash and Alaina dive deep into the sensational, twist-filled 1857 murder case of Dr. Harvey Burdell, and the scandalous exploits of Emma Cunningham. Blending grim true crime, weird history, and their signature comedic camaraderie, the duo traces the tangled web of 19th-century New York City society, alleged fraud, gendered prejudice, and one woman's desperate pursuit of survival and status. From audacious forgeries to placenta cupboards and sword canes, they serve up both the facts and the absurdities of the era, providing plenty of laughs (and gasps) along the way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Setting the Stage

• Emma Augusta Hempstead Cunningham: Born in 1818 Manhattan to a devout Methodist family with strict values (piety, thrift, restraint), Emma defiant of her upbringing, craved comfort and luxury.

  “She really wanted a life of comfort. She wanted a life of opulence, and she wanted a life of luxury. Honey, who can blame her?” — Alaina [08:18]

• Marriage & Family Life: At 19, Emma marries George Cunningham, a much older, non-Methodist, and bootlegger (devastating her parents). She has five children before George’s repeated financial failures and eventual death leave her alone and desperate in her mid-thirties.

  “Out of desperation, George decided to make one last play for fortune... Unfortunately, he returned to Brooklyn less than a year later, broke, and having failed at yet another business venture.” — Alaina [11:56]

2. The Hunt for Security & Social Status

• Widowhood & The Search for a Husband: With little support, Emma aims to “rejoin the upper class in Manhattan.” She sets her sights on wealthy, reputable men, but her status as a widow with five kids makes marriage prospects scarce.
• Enter Dr. Harvey Burdell: Well-off dentist, charming on the surface yet "a scoundrel" and notorious for cheating creditors, swindling business partners, and absolutely refusing marriage.

3. Emma and Harvey’s Relationship

• Dysfunctional Dynamics: After a period as his boarder and confidante, Emma becomes Burdell’s lover. A Saratoga Springs trip in 1855 leads to Emma’s pregnancy, but Harvey refuses to marry her and—according to Emma—forces an abortion on her.

  “He insisted on examining her himself. And I was like, you’re a dentist. I don’t have teeth down there, so... And after confirming the pregnancy, he, quote, produced an abortion with his own hands. Oh, yeah.” — Alaina [28:22]

• Character Portraits: The hosts paint Harvey as both charismatic and deeply troubled—abandoned in childhood, his relationships marred by coldness and control, treating Emma as a convenience rather than a partner.

4. Escalating Conflict & Burdell’s Murder

• Relationship Deterioration: As Emma pressures for marriage and security and Harvey pursues other women (including his cousin—ew), tensions escalate, with fights over missing papers and accusations.
• Foreshadowing: On January 30, Emma learns Harvey plans to sell their home, reportedly remarks, “He better be careful. He may not live to sign the papers.” — [33:29]

[34:00] Murder Discovery

Harvey is found brutally stabbed (15 wounds, possible ligature strangulation) in his home office. Blood evidence, lack of robbery, and a blood trail set the stage for a scandalous investigation.

• Clue-Like Mystery: The episode teems with dramatic, even slapstick, details—e.g., the search for a “sword cane” as the potential murder weapon, and the quick leap in public opinion to pin the murder on the suspicious widow and her supposed co-conspirators.

5. The Investigation and Trial

• Coroner’s Inquest: Testimony focuses on Emma’s tumultuous relationship with Harvey, her possible involvement in a fake marriage (she presents a likely-forged certificate), and evidence of prior violence. Shop girls remember Emma and accomplice buying a dagger close to the murder date.

  “A man and woman asked about purchasing a sword cane... but after viewing what the store had available, the woman claimed she needed something much shorter and sturdier.” — Alaina [44:49]

• Public Villainization: The 19th-century press eviscerates Emma, focused on her looks and “moral character,” rather than evidence.

  “They described her as not handsome, rude, and scarcely good looking. Oh, my.” — Alaina [40:06]

• Trial Revelations:

  • Emma, John Eckel (boarder), and George Snodgrass (another boarder) are charged.
  • The prosecution weaves a motive of greedy widowhood, while the defense spotlights Harvey’s cruelty and the lack of direct evidence.
  • The key detail of the killer being left-handed versus right-handed is hotly debated, with dueling expert witnesses.

6. Absurd Schemes & The Baby Con

[63:08] Emma’s Baby Fraud

• Post-Acquittal Shenanigans: With the murder trial falling apart (Emma is acquitted after 30 minutes of jury deliberation), she launches another con: to secure Harvey’s estate, Emma and her team fake a pregnancy and arrange for a baby to be “born” at precisely the time Harvey’s supposed heir would be expected.

  • The prosecutor’s office sets a sting; they “mark” a baby from Bellevue’s indigent ward and catch Emma red-handed, complete with fake afterbirth made with lamb’s blood and a placenta hidden in the cupboard.

    “Later that evening... officers waited outside and listened as Emma moaned in a theatrical recreation of giving birth.” — Ash [66:38] “They also covered a set of sheets with some of the blood and got a placenta... which they put in the cupboard for safekeeping.” — Alaina [67:40]

• Public Ridicule: The baby’s real mother later exhibits it at P.T. Barnum’s Museum, which the hosts roast as part of a running gag (“Stop putting babies in circus museums!”).

7. Aftermath & Legacy

• Emma’s Downfall: While avoiding fraud charges (thanks to a clever lawyer), Emma is humiliated, loses her bid for the estate, flees New York, and eventually dies in obscurity.
• Who Killed Harvey Burdell? Officially, the murder remains unsolved, with debate over whether Emma could have done it, given conflicting forensic opinions and the victim’s multitude of enemies.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Harvey’s Rejection of Marriage:

  "He remarked to a friend that he, quote, would not marry the best woman living." — Alaina [31:34]

• Courtroom Drama:

  "While the prosecution had taken more than a week to present their case… the jury returned just 30 minutes later, and they delivered a verdict of not guilty." — Alaina [61:36]

• Absurd Details:

  “Afterbirth prepared with lamb’s blood… placenta in the cupboard for safekeeping.” — Alaina & Ash [67:31]

• Meta Commentary:

  “They described her as not handsome, rude, and scarcely good looking. Oh, my. The way they just used to read a bitch to filch back then.” — Alaina & Ash [40:06]

• Pure Comedy:

  “Stop putting babies in circus museums!” — Ash & Alaina [71:01, 76:19]

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Important Timestamps

• Emma’s Childhood and Values – [05:30]
• Marriage to George Cunningham & Family Struggle – [09:07]
• Relationship with Dr. Burdell Overview – [16:05]
• The Saratoga Trip & Pregnancy Scandal – [20:25 – 28:22]
• Murder of Harvey Burdell – [34:00]
• Shop Girl Testimony about Weapons – [43:31, 44:49]
• Media Slander & Courtroom Drama – [40:06, 57:39]
• The Baby Fraud Sting Operation – [63:08 – 69:32]
• Final Verdict & Postscript – [61:36 – 76:12]
• Comedy Peak: Museum Babies & Placenta Cabinets – [71:01, 76:13]

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Tone & Style

The hosts’ irreverent, conversational approach transforms archival true crime into a theatrical, sometimes slapstick, and always engrossing saga. They punctuate the lurid details of Emma’s saga with 21st-century analogies, personal confessions, and recurring in-jokes (e.g., sword canes, placenta cabinets, “scarcely good looking,” and museum baby protests). At the same time, their research and clarity make the convoluted plot accessible, even for those new to the case or period.

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In Conclusion

Ash and Alaina deliver a “lighthearted nightmare” of a story: a tornado of ambition, desperation, and Victorian scandal that feels both outlandish and oddly contemporary. Emma Cunningham emerges as a flawed but resourceful antiheroine, caught in the gears of a patriarchal, gossip-hungry society—and possibly in her own web of deception. Whether listeners seek shocking facts, wild history, or just a good laugh about 19th-century placenta storage, this episode hits the mark.

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For true crime fans and lovers of historical weirdness, this episode is not to be missed!

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

And I'm Alina.

[B]

And this is morbid.

[A]

It's morbid.

[B]

It's post holiday morbid. Are you exhaust?

[A]

I'm exhaust.

[B]

Are you exhaust?

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I am car exhaust is what I am.

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I'm car zausted.

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I feel like car exhausted. I'm tired, man. Yeah. I can't wake up to holidaying, you know?

[B]

Yeah. But I have a maple pecan latte in front of me.

[A]

Shout out, she's got a cuppa.

[B]

I got a cup of maple pecan. Shout out to Nespresso.

[A]

No Nespresso for no espresso. No espresso. Nespresso for life.

[B]

Honestly, I love Nespresso.

[A]

I really like the. This isn't an ad. They don't pay us. I. We just have one.

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They did, I think. Here's the thing. I don't know if like one of you knows that we love Nespresso and you sent it to the P.O. box or if Nespresso sent it to us.

[A]

Somebody sent us Nespresso with no notes.

[B]

No notes.

[A]

So thanks to you guys or thanks to Nespresso nebulous individual who gave us nespresso. Because I'm really obsessed with the pistachio and vanilla double espresso.

[B]

Yes, I love that one as well.

[A]

It's limited edition, so I think I'm gonna buy stock in it and literally have an entire garage filled with it.

[B]

I think I bought 34 of that one.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I think in over there there's like.

[A]

Hidden packages will say anytime I want it, Mikey provides it to me. So I think we have a stockpile somewhere.

[B]

Mikey bought some and then they would only allow you to buy a certain amount. So then I bought more. Cuz I also really like that flavor.

[A]

So we do have a stockpile. Cuz I. I've yet to find myself wanting it and not being able to find it.

[B]

That's one thing about Mikey. If you tell Mikey that you like something, he will buy you 38 million of it.

[A]

Like, I love Christmas tree cakes. I've loved Christmas tree cakes. The vanilla ones.

[B]

Yep, of course.

[A]

Since the dawn of time.

[B]

They're so good.

[A]

They've been around my entire life.

[B]

Since the dawn of time.

[A]

Since the dawn of time, essentially. And he knows I love them and he knows that they start getting hard to find very easily.

[B]

See, I didn't realize that until last year how sought after they are.

[A]

They're like those Pillsbury cookies that have like, you know, like the different holiday things on them. Like the sugar cookies.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Every Halloween the pumpkin ones sell out and you can't find them anywhere for like weeks before Halloween. Christmas too, like they always do. It's the same thing. Yeah, you just can't find them anywhere. So Mikey bought me like eight boxes of them.

[B]

Yeah, he's a fucking dude.

[A]

There's just a whole bag of these things.

[B]

And he got me the brownies, which I love the Christmas tree brownies.

[A]

He's just, he really provides.

[B]

He's not in the office today and.

[A]

I think I miss him. I miss him a lot.

[B]

I think I'm. I think I miss you. Michael, you're gonna edit this, but I just want you to know that. Mike, I think I miss you.

[A]

Don't edit it.

[B]

Are you guys okay?

[A]

Leave it in there.

[B]

Oh no, I mean you're gonna edit this episode so like you'll hear that I miss.

[A]

I thought you meant he'll take it out. I was like he won't take it.

[B]

No. Don't take out my message of you no.

[A]

Love will be Taken out.

[B]

What do you got for me today, Red?

[A]

Well, today I have. I haven't done an old timey case in a while.

[B]

No, actually, it's been a long time.

[A]

It's been a minute. Okay, so this is an old timey case. It's Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Burdell.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's a very interesting one. It takes place in New York. It's in the 1800s.

[B]

Sorry, I just cracked all of my.

[A]

I know. I was like, why did you do that?

[B]

I wasn't thinking of the fact that we're recording a live. A live pod right now.

[A]

It was like, crack.

[B]

It was literally. And then my wrist cracked by accident.

[A]

You're like, tell me about it. Crack, crack, crack, crack, crack.

[B]

Like, let me just make this ASMR. Sorry.

[A]

Yeah. This is very 1800s New York. There's a lot of twists and turns in this. It's not. There's murder. There's a lot of fraud, There's a lot of lies. And there at the end, you're gonna be like, what the. It's a crazy one.

[B]

All right, brother.

[A]

So let's start off by talking about who Emma is.

[B]

Who's Emma?

[A]

Because she seems to be the. The focus here. Oh. Emma Augusta Hempstead was born in Manhattan, New York.

[B]

Baller name and baller place to be born.

[A]

She was born on August 15, 1818. What does that make her? Aaliyah. She was born to Christopher and Sarah Hempstead. They were devout Methodists who raised their children in a very strictly religious household.

[B]

Fun.

[A]

A lot of these stories have that in there. Religion was definitely a fundamental part of most families at the time. So it's not like they were like this unique outlier or anything. But Christopher and Sarah Hempstead were more committed than most. They impressed upon their children the three fundamentals of a morally righteous life, which.

[B]

Like, righteous, totally righteous, not like righteous.

[A]

But like, righteous, righteous. Piety, thrift, and restraint.

[B]

What's piety again?

[A]

I think that's like you. You're pious.

[B]

Not you using the actual word to talk about.

[A]

I did that thing where I'm like. It means this.

[B]

Piety means.

[A]

Piety is like purity, I think, maybe.

[B]

Or the quality of being religious or reverent. A belief or point of view that is accepted with reverence.

[A]

Yeah, I couldn't figure out how to explain, like, I'm like, religious. Like, it just means, like.

[B]

Okay, so it means like you're highest pray and you go to church and you do the things, you devote yourself to.

[A]

A higher power you do all of the actions that are required of your religion.

[B]

You're full of religion.

[A]

So you need to be pious. You need to be thrifty. Thrifty. Okay. I could. I'm thrifty. And you need restraint.

[B]

Oh, unfortunately, I don't be having any. Like I just said, I will eat.

[A]

64 Christmas tree brownies. I have a bag of Christmas tree cakes that. Yeah, tell me that I can't go by that one.

[B]

So sorry.

[A]

According to author Benjamin Feldman, who we have linked in the show notes, Emma learned the lessons well, but she fell short in practical application. That's to say, basically, that she recognized the significance of these, like, core tenants. If you want to be righteous, righteous, righteous. But she really wanted a life of comfort. She wanted a life of opulence, and she wanted a life of luxury. Honey, who can blame her? She wasn't looking to be thrifty and straight being a part of her life. Boo. Now, Christopher Hempstead earned a modest living as a rope maker, which is like a rope maker. Never came across that career field yet.

[B]

No.

[A]

In all of our cases.

[B]

Check off the box.

[A]

He sold his wares to the sailors and doctors, workers who were found on the shores of the East River. That's cool. When Emma was still young, her dad moved the family across the river to Brooklyn. It was at that point. It was still. Brooklyn was like a pretty small village at that point. And he found a pretty lucrative business in the trades on Fulton Street. Although the move was basically intended to improve the lives of the family, you know, he thought he could get more work. All that good stuff. Feldman notes that following the move to Brooklyn, there's no record of Emma participating in any formal religious activities. She said, interesting.

[B]

Fuck a whole bunch of that.

[A]

Yeah, fuck that. There could be several reasons for this. Like, you know, maybe she was present, but she wasn't documented as being there. Like, that could have been it. It's not like we have, like, you know, it was the 1800s. Documentation was a little wily.

[B]

Maybe she forgot to sign in.

[A]

But Feldman suggests, as the eldest daughter, quote, demands were undoubtedly placed upon Emma to care for her younger brothers and sisters. So that could be it. So it probably made her want to break away from the family sooner as well, because she had a lot of responsib placed on her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In 1837, when Emma was 19 years old, she met and soon married George Cunningham. He was a businessman 22 years older than her. Ooh. Christopher and Sarah Hempstead were horrified by their daughter's choice of Husband.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Not only because he was not Methodist, but also because he made his living manufacturing. Are you ready? Not ropes. Liquor was a bootlegger. They said that's an evil trade.

[B]

A disgusting, evil trade. Said, not the IPAs.

[A]

That is not righteous.

[B]

Not the potatoes. They're supposed to be mashed, not used for vodka.

[A]

Well, to make matters worse, as far as they could tell, George seemed to live his life in complete opposition of the religious values that they were trying to teach. He was out here hailing Satan, and they were worried that he was going to lure Emma into a lifestyle of just debauchery.

[B]

She's just gonna get drunk.

[A]

So following the marriage, they settled into a rented townhouse on Irving Place in the Union Square neighborhood of Manhattan. And they lived there, you know, a pleasant upper class life together. And just two years later, Emma gave birth to her first child, Margaret Augusta.

[B]

Mazel.

[A]

Who was followed by Helen in 1842 and Georgina in 1844.

[B]

Georgina, I know. Love that name.

[A]

So following the birth of Georgina, Emma discovered that although he earned a pretty good income, George wasn't great with money. And in 1846, they could no longer afford their, like, upper class lifestyle, and they were forced to move back to the more modest Brooklyn neighborhood where Emma grew up.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Which is not great.

[B]

And her parents were like, told you so.

[A]

Yeah. Just a few months after moving to Brooklyn, Emma gave birth to the couple's fourth child, George, who was followed in 1847 by their fifth and final child, William.

[B]

That's a lot of babies.

[A]

A lot of babies. The financial downturn they endured in 1846 definitely exacerbated a very clear existing rift between George and Emma. It began a year or so before that when Emma realized George's business success wasn't as guaranteed as she had previously believed. Yeah, she had kind of been bamboozled a little bit. Also, George's failures in the distilling business and other ventures led to an early termination of the real estate agreement set up by his father, which was intended to last several decades and provide income for his sisters, which caused additional strife in the family. Oh, so all kinds of family shenanigans.

[B]

They got married and it just. Everything exploded.

[A]

It sounds like it was like he. He had like this huge facade up, and then when they got married, it just all crumbled down and she was like, oh, and now I have five kids with you. Yeah.

[B]

Attached myself to a sing thinking ship.

[A]

Now, out of desperation, George decided to make one last play for Fortune in 1918. 49. Sorry. And he joined the thousands of men venturing out to California in search of gold. The gold rush. Unfortunately, he returned to Brooklyn less than a year later, broke, and having failed at yet another business venture. When he came back to Brooklyn, his relationship with Emma was really just like, barely there. Yeah, she wasn't actively courting other men. She did have very little love for her husband, though.

[B]

I mean, at that kind of. At that rate, I get it.

[A]

Things seemed like they were really bad. Things only got worse when George began exhibiting symptoms of a, quote, tropical disease believed to have been contracted on his return trip from California.

[B]

Oh, man, the hits just.

[A]

They keep on coming.

[B]

Poor guy.

[A]

They managed to scrape by with what little income they could find until June 1, 1854, when George finally succumbed to his illness. Oh, he died. Yeah. In an attempt to safeguard his family's well being, though, George Cunningham took out two insurance policies just before leaving for California. Okay, they totaled $10,000. Good money. But with the money put into a real estate trust managed by George's lawyer, Emma was barely able to support herself and the children with her monthly income from the trust. Also, having become estranged from her own family after her father died several years earlier, Emma had no social safety net that she could turn to for any kind of financial support or emotional support.

[B]

Just any kind of support. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Cause regardless of, like, what their relationship was like, it's her husband dying and the father of her children.

[B]

Yeah, her five children that she's now alone to raise.

[A]

She was determined, though, to keep her family from becoming destitute. And she wanted. Not only that, she didn't want to just keep everything going. She wanted to rejoin the upper class in Manhattan.

[B]

And she got a taste of that shit.

[A]

Yeah, she said, I'm a find a new husband.

[B]

Said it's better up there.

[A]

Yep. And she said, let me go find a husband that can get me that.

[B]

Go get him, girl.

[A]

Five kids, man. Like, go get, go, go after it. Go get him, Tiger. Now, at 36 years old, Emma was solidly middle aged. She was middle aged at this point and knew very well that her best prospects of finding a new husband would be probably among the widowers of her same age. Basically, the problem was that in 1854, Brooklyn was still, like I said before, a pretty small village. And it was built on marshy wetlands populated by what Feldman describes as, quote, coarse and uneducated. Oh, hardly the type that would want to or even be capable of pulling her and her children up to the upper class. Yeah. Instead, she looked across the river, of course, to Manhattan.

[B]

I was going to say go to Manhattan.

[A]

Yeah, you got to go to Manhattan.

[B]

Go to the big city.

[A]

Yeah. She found herself in the home, at one point, of Dr. Harvey Burdell. Who was a doctor. Doctor. Unmarried. Dentist.

[B]

Oh, dentist, you say?

[A]

We got a dentist. According to Feldman, Emma pursued and was pursued by other eligible men before and after moving into Berdell's boarding house at 31 Bond street so he owned the boarding house? He wrote. Among others. Emma exchanged intimate letters for a year and a half. With former AO New York resident Whitall SE Hyde. But abandoned that romance once she realized the relationship wasn't probably going to end in marriage.

[B]

Can I just say that Whit hall is such a baller name.

[A]

Right. The problem, it seemed, was that while men were attracted to Emma, none of her suitors seemed particularly interested in getting married. Yeah. Especially to a widow with five children. Yeah. Understandable. Running out of money and facing what she didn't want, poverty. Emma became desperate. Which Feldman suggests could be the reason why she, quote, may well have ignored any unsavory information about the handsome, well known Dr. Burdell.

[B]

I feel like a weird emphasis on the well known.

[A]

Yeah. So she pursued that relationship with gusto. Okay. Harvey Burdell was born January 8, 1812. He's Capricorn in Herkimer, New York, to John and Polly Burdell. I love the name Polly.

[B]

It's adorable.

[A]

Reports of Harvey's earlier life are pretty vague, and they kind of, like, contradict themselves. It's really not something you can kind of put into a good chronological order. But most agree that young Harvey's life was kind of an unfortunate cycle of instability, tragedy and rejection. Oh, it wasn't great. Just a few years after he was born, his father either died or divorced his wife. Accounts kind of difference, leaving Paulie with five children to raise and no income.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Another five children.

[B]

I was gonna say weird.

[A]

Yeah, it echoes. When Harvey was 12 years old, his mother married James Lehman, an upstate New York farmer with very little interest in the children from Paulie's previous marriage. Intending to have children of his own with his new wife, James made it clear that Harvey and his siblings weren't welcome in his home. The five children a literal piece of shit.

[B]

And Paulie was just like, okay, bye, kids.

[A]

And in 1824, Harvey was forced out of the house and had to take care of himself. With no resources and very few skills.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Being abandoned by his mother at such an early age set the stage for how Harvey would come to conceive of relationships and attachments.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

And serve as the foundation of his pretty low opinion of women that he would develop in later years. Yeah. Harvey managed to complete a few more years of formal education, which is pretty impressive, to be honest. Before leaving school and working a series of odd jobs. In the years after that, around 1829, when he was just 17 years old, because he was, like, 12 when he went out. That's awful. He became the owner of the Oswego Advisor, A small upstate newspaper that had started several years earlier. Although the paper folded just a year after that. It led to a job offer from a rival newspaper, which eventually led to Harvey traveling to the Philadelphia area. And when he got there, he started attending lectures at the Jefferson Medical College. It was here that he received the education to become a dentist. But there's no documented evidence of his having graduated from, or even, like, formally attending the college. Okay. So Feldman points out, it was easy for the creative Dr. Burdell to concoct and pass off as truth his medical training credentials for consumption by patients and professional societies. That's terrifying.

[B]

Your dentist is not a professional.

[A]

Yeah. He just, like, attended a few lectures.

[B]

Giving Dr. Death.

[A]

Yeah. In 1834, Harvey followed his brother John to New York, where the two opened a dental practice and would go on to write a dental textbook.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Yeah. Like most professional groups at the time, the New York dental profession was still pretty small. So the Burdell brothers were able to make a name for themselves pretty quickly and easily, in a good way. This was particularly easy at the time, since there were many fraudulent dentists and surgical con artists working around the country at the time.

[B]

Frog. Frog. Surgical, not frog people.

[A]

And so, in this case, a respectable dentist, even if their credentials were suspect, like one that was, at the very least, doing things on the up and up, at this point, they could kind of expect a pretty lucrative business, because they were kind of rare, which is wild. In the years that followed their relationship, the two brothers as well as their relationship with other siblings, deteriorated. There was, like, a lot of frivolous lawsuits, romantic affairs, but that, like, got all intertwined and up. But the business they built together remained a success. Okay, now by 1854, Harvey was running his own dental practice and seeing no need to live alone in his large home. So he opened his Bond street residence to Borders. And it didn't take long for Burdell to take a romantic interest in his newest Border. After months of subtle flirting, in which Harvey repeatedly beseeched Emma to throw off her black clothes and embrace life Again, because she was a widow, remember?

[B]

Yeah. He said, get out of mourning, girl. He said, girl, get sexy and flirt.

[A]

Isn't that the Princess Diaries? When Jo is like, you've been wearing black for too long.

[B]

Yeah, I love Jo from the Princess Diaries. Me too.

[A]

That's what made me me think of it. I was like, aww. And the queen and I love that. So that's essentially what Harvey Burdell. Okay.

[B]

Don't make me root for this because I feel like I'm not supposed to.

[A]

Emma finally gave in and in the summer of 1855, agreed to accompany him that summer on a trip to Saratoga Springs, which was a very popular destination for elite travelers because it was the racetrack that was fancy painting horses. Traveling in the company of Emma's teenage daughter, Helen. The three registered at Saratoga's Congress hall hotel and immediately began taking in the sights.

[B]

So their chaperone.

[A]

Yeah, she's like, Helen's coming.

[B]

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[A]

I need. Here's a quick little detour because here we are.

[B]

Where are you gonna take us?

[A]

Helen makes me think, any of you who have kids, maybe if you don't have kids, maybe you're watching it. Please tell me you've seen the show Kiss.

[B]

I love Helen.

[A]

Please tell me you've seen the show Kiff.

[B]

It's great.

[A]

It is one of the funniest kids shows. We literally request that. My kids were like, they're like, what should we watch? I'm like, kiff. Throw on Kiff anytime they want to.

[B]

Watch TV with me. I'm like, can we watch Kiff?

[A]

It's got old school vibes. Like the things we used to watch when we were younger. And I think the two creators, because John looked into them because he was like, this show's fucking awesome. And all the songs in it are very, like, pop punky songs. So we were like, who are these people that made this? They've got to be our age. Like, this has to be it. And turns out they are. And I think they're Australian. I'm not positive, but they just have better humor. They. I think one of them, like, the guy was in a band, like a pop punk band. So all those songs are meant to be like that.

[B]

That only makes sense.

[A]

And then he loved that animation style. Like, they both love the animation style of, like, the Ren and Stimpys and all that, where they would. You know, in Ren and Stimpy, you guys will know this. They used to do this thing where they would go, like, really close up and it would get more detailed and, like, weird.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like on, like, on somebody's face or something. They do that in Kiff, and it gives you such weird nostalgia.

[B]

Kif is so. It's so weird, but it's so good.

[A]

So weird, but. And Helen is a character who is a witch.

[B]

She's me.

[A]

And her voice.

[B]

I love her. I want to be Helen for the next Listener Tales, but I don't know.

[A]

If anyone will get it, guys.

[B]

And she's always just like, yeah, I'm Helen. That's her voice. I'm Helen.

[A]

I'm.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

That is so good. Kiff and Mary. Oh, my God. Yeah. Please, if your children are not watching.

[B]

Kiff, watch the episode where they're gonna make Helen a star. But they're like. Like, they're making her, like a fake star. Like, for people to laugh at that woman.

[A]

They try to. But then Kiff and Barry try to warn her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't believe them, but it's got.

[A]

Good little messages into it.

[B]

So good.

[A]

That's my little detour. Every time I hear the name Helen, I can't help but think of Helen.

[B]

I love it.

[A]

But, yeah. So Helen went with them. So Emma's intentions had been to secure a husband and in doing that, also secure a very stable financial future for herself and her children. Yeah. Throughout their trip to Saratoga Springs, Harvey lavished Emma with attention with adoration, indicating that her strategy was working.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

That fall, more evidence of success came when the three had returned home and Emma began experiencing morning sickness on a regular basis.

[B]

Oh, they had a good time In Saratoga, they sure did.

[A]

Recognizing the pretty, unmistakable signs of pregnancy and her five times of doing it, Emma was like. Like success. She said, marry me. After all, any respectable man in Harvey's position would surely do the right thing and marry the woman who was carrying his child.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Unfortunately.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Emma was wrong.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Having spent years building a reputation and considerable number of assets, he wasn't going to risk it all for a woman he barely knew.

[B]

Oh, he just impregnated.

[A]

But I said, oh, you barely knew.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You impregnated her? Yeah.

[B]

You knew her enough to do her.

[A]

No, her. I impregnated her. Like, what the. Now, how or when Harvey became aware of Emma's pregnancy is kind of unknown. But in testimony given at Emma's trial, witnesses recalled her spending considerable time in bed around mid to late November. And this is sad. Recuperating from what they believed was a miscarriage.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

Similarly, in a statement given to her lawyers, Emma explained that when she told Harvey about the pregnancy, he insisted on examining her himself. And I was like, you're a dentist. I don't have teeth down there, so. And after confirming the pregnancy, he, quote, produced an abortion with his own hands. Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, not at her will.

[A]

No. Oh. Aside from the testimony in Emma's statement, there is no evidence of her pregnancy or her having had an abortion. However, given his medical training and access to medical knowledge, it is entirely possible that he did perform it himself. Yeah. Now, had Emma not been so eager to find a husband and climb back up the social ladder, it's likely she would have noticed that Harvey wasn't quite the charming and respectable man that she had kind of hoped he would be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In fact, while he may have had a good reputation in some business circles, he also had a reputation as essentially a scoundrel.

[B]

He sounds like a scoundrel to me.

[A]

Throughout New York, there were several creditors and vendors who Harvey just refused to pay after receiving services or loans. Giving HH Holmes, it is hinting at the greed and nonchalance that seemed to motive nearly everything he did.

[B]

And just like, thinking he's better so.

[A]

He doesn't have to. I don't have to do that. The worst of these came in 1835, when on his wedding day, Harvey, quote, demanded $20,000 from the wealthy father of the bride to be in order to go through with the wedding.

[B]

What the fuck? Yeah, he just, like, bribed her.

[A]

Yeah, just bribed her. Disgusted with Harvey's demand, the man refused to pay. And Harvey promptly threw both the father and his betrothed out of the house and called off the wedding.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

He said, if you don't give me $20,000, I will not marry your daughter.

[A]

Yeah. And then was like, bye. I really won't. You're all gonna leave now. He said, don't fuck around and find out now. In time, Emma came to learn that as far as Harvey was concerned, sex and love were two very different matters. While the couple continued their sexual relationship into 1856, Harvey continued to refuse to marry Emma or even acknowledge their relationship in public spheres.

[B]

Oh, he was treating her like she.

[A]

Was way less than fed up with Harvey's disinterest and tired of fighting, Emma made one final attempt to get him to legitimize their relationship. And in October 1856, she filed suit against him in civil court for breach of promise.

[B]

Oh, that I love that.

[A]

Isn't that a wild one? The suit ended with a kind of informal settlement that stated, in consequence of the settling of the suit now pending between Emma Augusta Cunningham and myself, I agree as follows. One, I extend to herself and family my friendship through life. Two, I agree never to do or act in any manner to the disadvantage of Mrs. Emma A. Cunningham. It's unknown why that document would satisfy Emma, especially if she intended to get him to commit to marriage with this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it was. What was clear was that Harvey still had no intention of marrying her.

[B]

Yeah. He's like, I'll be nice to her.

[A]

In an interview with a reporter from the Daily Herald In 1857, New York County Deputy Sheriff Hugh Crombie was asked by a reporter, do you believe Burdell ever thought of marrying her? And he replied, marry her? Why, he'd sooner have committed suicide. Oh, that's a quote, by the way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Crombie wasn't the only one who knew of Harvey's deep disinterest in marriage. Shortly before he died, he remarked to a friend that he, quote, would not marry the best woman living.

[B]

Why?

[A]

Because he's a scoundrel.

[B]

You ain't gonna tie me down. No.

[A]

He is a scoundrel and a forever bachelor. He wouldn't marry the best woman living. Wow. It's like, damn. Okay.

[B]

It's giving, like, Southern charm.

[A]

Good luck, bro. It wasn't just Emma who struggled with Harvey's coldness. In fact, he seemed almost incapable of maintaining literally any close relationship with anyone, including his family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the spring of 1856, when Harvey's cousin, Demis Hubbard, came to stay in New York for with him For a short time, Harvey began ignoring Emma altogether and instead lavished his young female cousin with attention and adoration.

[B]

I don't want to know anything about that. I don't need you to tell me anything about that.

[A]

Yeah. So she had gone to her cousin seeking shelter after her marriage had fallen apart, and she wasn't interested in romantic or sexual attraction, especially from a family member. That's good. The girl stayed on at the house for a few weeks until the situation became intolerable and she relocated to the home of Harvey's brother William. Because she was like Harvey's gross.

[B]

What a freak.

[A]

For Emma, who had essentially taken on the role of wife without anything that goes along with it, at least within the walls of the house, too, not in public, that was the final straw. After the incident with his cousin, relations between Harvey and Emma deteriorated to the point that rather than eat dinner at home with her, Harvey began taking his meals to a hotel around the corner.

[B]

Yeah. I'd be like, okay, you cousin fucker. I don't want to eat dinner with you anyway.

[A]

Okay, you cousin fucker. Go eat your meal around the corner.

[B]

Bye bye.

[A]

January. The two were hardly speaking, and Emma strongly suspected that not only was Harvey having an affair with one of his dental patients, but he also intended to sell the house at 31 Bond street and cut all ties with her.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

On the morning. Morning of January 30th, Harvey was seen by several of the boarding house residents in the company of a woman to whom he was giving a tour.

[B]

Uh.

[A]

Oh. Seeing the two together, Emma approached one of the maids and asked who the woman was and was informed that she was to be the new owner of the house and would be taking possession on the 1st of May. And Emma said to her, he better be careful. He may not live to sign the papers. And I said, oh, skirt. On the morning of January 31, a little after 7am Harvey's office assistant, John Burchell, arrived at his house and went down to the cellar to collect coal to light the fire in Harvey.

[B]

Where's Harvey?

[A]

Yeah, he's just like, oh. As the boy made his way up to the second floor, he stopped to say hello to the landlady of the premises, is what he described them as, who looked particularly depressed that morning. And this is Emma. Yeah. As he approached the door to the office, John immediately noticed that a key was dangling from the lock on the outside of the door. Cautiously, because he didn't want to disturb whatever. Whatever business was taking place inside, he nudged the door open quietly and was shocked at what he discovered on the other side. Harvey was lying on his left side, face down in a large pool of his own blood. Burchell ran to fetch the police, and Dr. J.W. francis, a doctor who lived nearby, and all arrived at the house a short time later. Harvey had been stabbed 15 times in the chest and neck.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

And there was considerable bruising on his neck From a ligature that was discovered near the body.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

According to Dr. Francis, one of the stab wounds had severed Harvey's carotid artery, causing blood to spurt, quote, violently from the victim's chest and neck.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And leaving blood spatter and smears more than five feet up the walls. What the. Oh, the carotid artery is no joke.

[B]

Evidently.

[A]

Yeah. There was also a large blood trail leading from the dental chair in the center of the room to the door.

[B]

Sounds like a horror movie.

[A]

Yeah. Given the considerable damage done to the body, Dr. Francis couldn't say for certain which of the injuries had been the fatal blow. Telling reporters any one of the stab wounds was sufficient to cause death.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The wounds appeared to have been delivered in a combination of slashes and stabs, Varied in their depths and like just everywhere.

[B]

This person is mad.

[A]

And it indicated that whoever did it was in a rage, Little frenzy. Yeah. The coroner theorized the implement used in the Death was about 8 inches in length, sharp, pointed, and somewhere about 3/4 of an inch wide.

[B]

What the. Yeah, that's not even. Is that like a butcher knife or. Not even.

[A]

That's what is eight inches.

[B]

That's long.

[A]

That's long. Yeah, that's like a machete or something.

[B]

Can you imagine?

[A]

Longer.

[B]

But Emma coming at you with a machete?

[A]

No, I can't picture that. Police officers, with the help of the coroner, checked the three individuals living in the house for evidence of them being part of the murder, but they didn't find anything to indicate the three played a role at all. A search of the premises was pretty unproductive. They didn't really find a whole lot of evidence. But there was a blood trail leading from the office to the top floor, which indicated that the killer was not in a really big hurry to flee the scene. Okay. A search of the attic turned up a sheet and several items of clothing smeared with blood, including a shirt with the name Charles J. Ketchum printed on it. Huh. By 9am the crime scene had attracted a big mob of people. Locals, members of the press looking for something to do. All were trying to get a look inside the house, like you said, just looking for Something to do.

[B]

Yeah, just the days. Yeah, the days ahead.

[A]

Noting that Harvey's wallet and gold watch were still on him when the coroner removed the body to the bedroom, investigators quickly ruled out robbery.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

There really wasn't a lot of clues. There really wasn't a lot of theories. So a coroner's inquest was assembled the following day, which took place in the residence. I always love how these. Like in the 1800s. This is why I love old timey cases.

[B]

Guys so fun.

[A]

They would just do the shit in the house. Like a coroner's inquest.

[B]

Just in the boarding house, lay down the little table. They're like, let's do it.

[A]

I love how it just like cobbled together everything. The first testimony heard in the inquest was that of a local dentist, Alan Smith, who claimed to have seen Harvey about midday on the day before, which was January 30th. Smith had been working with Harvey on the manufacturing of dental implants, which wild crazy. And the two men had seen each other at least once a day for several weeks. Smith testified that he had heard angry arguments between Harvey and Emma in the days leading up to the murder stemming from Harvey's belief that Emma had stolen the key to his safe. Oh. The cook, Hannah Conlon.

[B]

It's like a game of Clue.

[A]

Right? It really feels like Clue. Right. She had the. The cook, Hannah Conlan also testified that she had heard aggressive arguments between them, including one quote in reference to some papers which the deceased accused her of stealing.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Conlon's testimony corroborated the difficult and violent relationship between Emma and Harvey. But the cook was also able to provide more insight into Emma's life in general. According to Conlon, Emma was often seen sitting in the parlor or bedroom with John Eccle, another of the boarders in the house.

[B]

House.

[A]

Hannah gave the assembled jury considerable insight into Harvey's relationship with Emma. But the biggest bombshell was when Hannah revealed that Emma had become pregnant with Burdell's child. She told the jury, last Thanksgiving Day, Mrs. Cunningham had a miscarriage of a child by Dr. Bredel. She also told the jury a doctor was called a few days later to tend to the wound Emma had sustained during one of her arguments with Harvey that caused her to bleed freely from the nose. Oh, okay. Which to me sounds like he hit her in the face. Yep.

[B]

100.

[A]

Emma appeared on the witness stand late on the first day of the inquest. But she provided a few details of her life in the. In relationship with Harvey, which it wasn't a lot. She didn't Give a lot. But what she did provide was a certificate of marriage as evidence that she and Harvey were married on October 28, 1856. Who knew? Look at that. Who knew? I don't even think Harvey knew. So who knew?

[B]

He was like, I was there.

[A]

Otherwise, she chose to speak of Harvey's character, telling the jury about an affair that Harvey had with his brother's wife 20 or so years earlier.

[B]

Damn. That'll do it. Yeah.

[A]

As well as the lawsuits and claims of slander that followed, it would seem, sensing that she might come under a suspicion, Emma was trying to establish that he was a man of poor character in his actions and attitude could have earned him any number of enemies who wished to kill him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which, like, wasn't wrong.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's unclear whether her testimony had any effect on the jury, but it won her no friends in the press. They described her as not handsome, rude, and scarcely good looking. Oh, my.

[B]

The way they just used to read a bitch to filch back then. Scarcely. What was it?

[A]

Don't ever tell me I'm not handsome. Okay.

[B]

I'm so handsome. And then what was it?

[A]

Scarcely good looking.

[B]

Scarcely good looking.

[A]

That's diabolical. It feels like.

[B]

I don't know if I'm, like, a descendant of Emma's because I feel hurt right now.

[A]

Like, imagine somebody just being like, you're scarcely good looking.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Like, damn. And also, what the. Does that have to do with anything?

[B]

Yeah, they're ugly. She's ugly, so she's a murderer.

[A]

They're like, I'm hot and you're not. Top that. Dead. In the week that followed, one witness after another testified as to Harvey's mercurial and peculiar character. But the witness testimony always had a way of making its way back to Emma. On the sixth day, an acquaintance of Burdell's told the jury that shortly before he was murdered, Harvey informed him that Emma, her daughter, John Eccle, and another border George. George Snodgrass. Shut the up. Sorry, I had to take a minute to go snob as usual, if you could. See, I had to make a point of that. Yep, George Snodgrass, obsessed. He told. So he told Burdell. Okay or no. Excuse me, sorry.

[B]

Not George, but, like, somebody told him.

[A]

That those three were. It was an acquaintance of Burdell. He was the one who testified that Burdell had told him before he got murdered that all those people, Emma, her daughter, John Eckel, and that border. George Snodgrass.

[B]

Yes, of course.

[A]

Had threatened his life.

[B]

Oh, all Together now.

[A]

All together now. All right. All of them standing in one. That we said, we're gonna end your life. You're gonna die. The testimony led the jury to believe the murder was committed from, quote, deep, long meditated revenge. And it was insisted that all further witnesses be interviewed, quote, with reference to that fact, which I was like. Feels like leading, though, a little bit, but okay. Well, it was clear that the coroner and the jury were focusing on the deteriorating relationship between them and Harvey as clear motive for murder. Yeah. There were other witnesses whose testimony kind of undermined that theory. Okay. During their questioning of Burdell's friend and former partner, Alva Blasdell. That's what it is. Blasdell, for example, the jury was told, while it was true that Harvey complained about Emma regularly, he was known to exaggerate problems and was likely just venting his frustrations. Blas? Bl. Dell told the coroner, Dr. Berdell is a peculiar man. He will have a quarrel, say, at this hour and the next hour. Be pleasant. So I think she's just like. I don't know. He's kind of like a flighty bitch. Like, he's just kind of mad at you one minute and then you're fine the next.

[B]

It's kind of Gemini esque of him.

[A]

It kind of is. I know.

[B]

I'm like, he's a Capricorn.

[A]

He's a Capricorn. Yeah.

[B]

I don't know his chart, though.

[A]

That's true. Maybe.

[B]

Maybe a Gemini rising.

[A]

There you go. I was going to say, maybe his rising is. Is more accurate. Look at you. One of the last people called to testify was a shop girl.

[B]

Oh, I love a shop girl.

[A]

I love a shop girl. Her name was Isabella Banford. Pretty Isabella Banford from the shop.

[B]

That's me.

[A]

She was from Clad and Black's Parasol and Cane store. Oh, but get. You.

[B]

Get your parasols, get your cats. You need help walking. You hate the sun.

[A]

Come on down. I love that. There's just a store for parasols and canes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Banford told the jury that on the morning of January 30, a man and woman, period, a man and woman. A man and woman asked about purchasing a sword cane. I need to look it up because I think it is what I think it is.

[B]

The way that I almost just spit this copy across the universe. A sword cane.

[A]

A sword cane.

[B]

Which what is that?

[A]

Is exactly what you think it is.

[B]

I don't even know what I think it is.

[A]

It's a cane. But if you pull the top. It's a sword. Yeah, like there's a sword in the cane.

[B]

That is fun.

[A]

And I get it. You want a sword cane.

[B]

Who doesn't wanted a sword cane? I just got so a man and a woman. Oh, just a minute. Yeah.

[A]

Or the woman about purchasing a sword cane. Okay, according. So she said a request from a woman for such a weapon was rare.

[B]

Yeah, I bet.

[A]

According to Banford, which is why it stuck out in her memory. She said that that's rare. So that's why I thought of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But after viewing what the store had available, the woman claimed she, quote, needed something much shorter and sturdier.

[B]

She said, I don't really care for your sword canes.

[A]

I don't like your swords, they're not good. Or your canes. And she said she couldn't wait for the next day's delivery. So I need it now. I need it now. Then the couple hurried out of the store.

[B]

I gotta get out of here.

[A]

I need to leave. You don't have the sword cane I need. I'm going to the next sword and cane store.

[B]

I'll deal with the next shop girl. She'll throw in a parasol for free.

[A]

Her name's Penelope, not Isabella. When Bamford was brought up to the cell where Emma was being held, she positively identified her as one half of the couple who inquired about the sword came.

[B]

She said, that bitch really wanted a sword.

[A]

She wanted a fucking sword.

[B]

Oh, shot one though.

[A]

When she was taken to see John Snodgrass, on the other hand, that guy, she could not identify him as the man who accompanied Emma that day.

[B]

She said, I don't know. His last name is just simply too cool.

[A]

She said his name, though, silly, is not. It's not something I remember. Later that day, the jury also heard from Margaret Alviset and Agnes Smith, shop girls as well, who worked at a nearby competitor of Clyde and Black. There's a competing.

[B]

That's where she was gonna go.

[A]

The girls testified that a few days before Burdell was murdered, they waited on a couple who'd come in looking to purchase a sword cane.

[B]

A sword cane, Was it the woman?

[A]

But instead they purchased a small dagger, about five inches long.

[B]

Well, I was just gonna say hot.

[A]

When asked if she would recognize the man and woman, Alvacet positively identified them as Emma Cunningham and George Snodgrass, not Mr. Snodgrass. When asked whether the dagger purchased by Snodgrass would have inflicted the type of wound wounds discovered on Harvey's body, the coroner confirmed it Would have.

[B]

She killed him with a dagger.

[A]

A dagger.

[B]

A dagger is so metal.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. And it's like up. She initially wanted a. A sword.

[B]

Sword came.

[A]

A sword.

[B]

Yeah, well, she wanted a short one.

[A]

She wanted a sword.

[B]

She said one thing about Emma, she.

[A]

Might be a crazy. Foreign.

[B]

Here is the typical holiday pattern. You tell yourself you're going to be thoughtful. You're like, oh my God, I'm going to get such thoughtful gifts for everybody on my list. But then you panic at the last.

[A]

Minute and you just end up buying.

[B]

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[A]

Wouldn't that be so sweet? Don't tell her.

[B]

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[A]

Ruining my bit.

[B]

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[A]

Podcast when you sign up.

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[A]

After two weeks of testimony and six hours of deliberation, the coroner and the jury had put together a theory as to the suspect in the murder and the crime. Yeah, unsurprisingly the cause of death was determined to be murder and the jury deemed Emma Cunningham and John John Eckel responsible with George snodgrass as an assess 3. Oh no they also because remember Emma's been spending a Lot of time with those two in the room with John Eckle. That's like, a thing that people said, huh? They also charged Emma, two of Emma's daughters, Augusta and Helen, not Helen, with withholding information about the crime. Which is like, really?

[B]

I'm like, why don't you involve their mom?

[A]

And it's like, don't involve them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. As for the motive, the jury theorized that Emma had conspired with the other men to murder Burdell in order that she, claiming to be his wife, could access his financial assets. After Emma, John Echel, and George Snodgrass were taken into custody and immediately transported to the Tombs to await an indictment.

[B]

Not the tomb.

[A]

The tomb. Now, while Augusta and Helen were taken into custody of the coroner and placed in a cell to be held as material witnesses, the outcome of a grand jury trial.

[B]

I'm now just picturing a lot of this as a Kiff episode, and that's.

[A]

Weird in my head. It's getting weird. It is. On February 21, 1857, Emma and John were brought before the Court of General Sessions, and each was formally indicted on one charge of assault and one charge of murder. The grand jury declined to hand down an indictment against George Snodgrass, however, but they did continue to hold him on $2,500 bail as a material witness for the case. Okay. Later that day, he was bonded out by his father with the understanding that he was going to appear in court when the time came. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Finally, dad said, he's good. He'll be there.

[A]

Yeah, he said it's fine. Finally, after reviewing the evidence presented at the inquiry, the jury determined there was no reason to hold Augusta or El Helen as witnesses, and they were both released.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah. Despite having been indicted for Harvey's murder, and Emma continued to pursue what she claimed was her right as his wife to access to his estate. Damn. So she is indicted for his murder, and she's like, yeah, when do I get to get to the financial Baby, if you're convicted, like, you're not going to get it. On March 3, Emma appeared before Alexander Bradford of the Surrogate Court, now presenting herself as Emma Cunningham Burdell girl. And seeking a determination of validity of her marriage to Harvey.

[B]

Babe, you're on trial for murder of said Harvey.

[A]

Yeah. Of the man.

[B]

Of the man's wombs. To state you want.

[A]

As she had done previously, Emma again presented the marriage certificate, claiming the two had been married in October, 1856, in the rectory of Reverend Uriah Marvine.

[B]

That Just sounds like a fake person.

[A]

But this time, Emma's lawyer, Henry Clinton, called Augusta Cunningham to testify on her mother's behalf. Clinton claimed, and Augusta swore, that the girl had been present for the. For the wedding. And when asked to identify, quote, the man she stood beside in the rectory parlor, she positively identified Harvey Burdell as the man who married her mother that. That day. Okay. Unfortunately for Emma, although Reverend Marvin was able to positively identify Augusta as the girl who accompanied the couple to the rectory that evening, he couldn't recall anything about the groom. In fact, the only things Marvin remembered of that night in 1856, aside from the presence of Emma and Augusta, was that the groom paid the fee with a $10 banknote and that he made the odd request that the news of the marriage not be reported to the press or otherwise made public.

[B]

I mean, honey, that's Harvey.

[A]

Sounds like it. A string of witnesses following Marvine further undermined Emma's claim, telling the jury that in the days just before the alleged marriage took place, Harvey was seen in both Herkimer and Saratoga Springs, making it impossible for him to have been with Emma in Manhattan.

[B]

Okay, so who was that?

[A]

Clinton challenged each of these witnesses, telling the judge that every one of them was either mistaken by a month in their recollections, or conspiring with the Burdell family to divorce, defeat an Emma Cunningham suit, and line their collective pockets with the estate assets. So it's getting nasty.

[B]

Yeah, it's getting hella messy right now.

[A]

And who the did she marry? Yeah, Was it Harvey?

[B]

I kind of feel like yes.

[A]

Or was it, like, John Eckle? I don't know. Who was it? The matter of Harvey's estate was put on hold starting May 4th.

[B]

That's good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They were like, hey, we'll figure that out, but first we got to find out who killed him.

[A]

It's like, let's put the on hold to accommodate the murder trial of John and Emma. Thanks. In his opening remarks, prosecutor Abraham Oakley Hall.

[B]

All he could be was a prosecutor.

[A]

All he could be. And he is wearing a full suit, and he's so sweaty. And he's always pulling out his handkerchief to just pat down his face. So animated, you know? Like, don't you just feel that?

[B]

Yeah, he does.

[A]

Of A.B. abraham Oakley Hall.

[B]

Yeah, he's so sweaty.

[A]

He told the jury that the evidence would prove that Harvey had been killed by a member of the household. And there was only one in the house, quote, who, greater than any other in the world, had a motive with malice aforethought. To perpetrate and accomplish that horrible deed. Also, the state would prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Emma Cunningham had been motivated by, quote, hate and revenge for some injury unatoned when she murdered Harvey Burdell with a secondary motive of accessing his estate. Okay. The prosecution's argument unfolded over the course of basically, like, 10 days and was more or less a repeat of the coroner's inquest. In the absence of evidence tying Emma to the murder, the prosecutor relied pretty extensively on hearsay speculation and vague witness testimony that suggested a connection, but never actually implicated her in the crime. Huh. Like the inquest, the more damning testimony came from the shop girl. Are shop girls. Shop girls who told the jury about Emma and Echo attempting to purchase a cane sword. And from Harvey's cook, Hannah Conlin, who, in fact, Conlon was one of the several witnesses who testified as, like, basically saying that they had a pretty acrimonious and often violent relationship together. She was the one that was like, I was in that house. Yeah, I heard all of it. With the prosecutor paying particular attention to Emma's comment of, quote, he may not live to sign the papers.

[B]

That's a biggie.

[A]

And that was made on the morning of Harvey's murder? Yeah. While hall had hoped the jury would be swayed by the witness testimony, he also used the press and public opinion to his advantage. He went out of his way to portray Emma as a greedy woman of loose morals. Not loose morals as a regular presence in the house. Conlon the cook was able to provide considerable insight into the daily lives of the defendants, including testimony about Emma's relationship with Harvey, her supposed abortion, her implied sexual relationship with fellow Border John Eckle.

[B]

What row?

[A]

While none of these things were exactly a motive for murder, hall basically hoped that they would support the prosecution's position that Emma would stop at nothing to get what she wanted.

[B]

Yeah, because it's, like, taken altogether. Yeah, it's pretty.

[A]

That's a lot of hefty information. The defense repeatedly lodged their objection to Hall's line of questioning, arguing that the jury could easily be misled by the, quote, unreliable memories of Demetrius domestics. But they were overruled every time. I love unreliable memories of domestics. Yeah, like people working in the house. Wow. When he had concluded his arguments, hall had painted a picture of Emma as a scheming murderous, willing to use anyone and do anything to achieve her own ends, which, according to the prosecutor, was wealth and status. Testimony from one witness after another depicted life in the Berdell house as one of constant strife, aggression, Between Harvey and Emma, who they were told were two depraved and sexually abhorrent individuals.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

They made them out to be like.

[B]

Just abhorrent is such a good word.

[A]

And most importantly, it is a really good word. And most importantly, Emma had a gun and two knives in her possession.

[B]

So why did she need a cane.

[A]

Sword, and was the only left handed person in the house with a man who'd been murdered by a left handed assassin?

[B]

Oh, anytime there's a lefty involved and you happen to be a lefty, it's.

[A]

Not good for you. Dog. Smoking hand. Yeah. While the prosecution had taken more than a week to present their case to the jury, Clinton and the defense only required two days to present their rebuttal. Using the rumors and innuendo to their advantage, they counted that Emma wasn't a cold blooded killer, just a woman who'd found herself in an abusive relationship with a man known for his peculiarities, mood swings and unsavory behaviors. Although Emma never took the stand in her own defense, her lawyers managed to undo some of the damage to her reputation done by the prosecutor. Specifically by portraying her as a committed mother and a spiritual woman who worked hard to provide a good life to her kids and a private Christian school education for her oldest daughters.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That was all true. All right. Because one thing she did do is work really hard for her children.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Most important to the defense was to refute the already questionable physical evidence in the case. Case that supposedly implicated Emma and John Eckel. During cross examination of the coroner, Clinton went out of his way to point out that the coroner lacked credible medical training. We got one.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

As I was saying, it was rare to find someone that actually had the fraud. Yeah. And he also lacked experience. And they called their own medical expert, Dr. John Carnican, a professor of surgery at the New York Medical College.

[B]

College. I feel like I believe him.

[A]

I believe him. Unlike the coroner, who admitted on the stand that he knew little about surgery, Cardigan had extensive, extensive experience with the types of wounds sustained by Burdell during the attack. And he told the jury that not only would Harvey's killer have needed considerable strength, but Carnican also believed, based on his observation of the blood spatter at the crime scene, that the killer was right handed. Yeah.

[B]

I wonder when that came up, too.

[A]

On May 9, the judge. And this was later. Like, this was during the rebuttal phase. So this was way later.

[B]

No, I mean, I wonder when it came up that, like, the killer was left handed after they found out that Emma was a lefty or.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean.

[A]

Like, on May 9, the judge allotted four hours for the prosecution and the defense to make their closing arguments. And both sides used about, like, half their time before excusing the jury to deliberate. Most in the courtroom expected a long wait before the verdict was returned. Because it's pretty messy. Yeah. But the jury returned just 30 minutes later, and they delivered a verdict of not guilty. Oh. In the end, the lack of evidence and heavy reliance on vague witness testimony, along with the considerable rumors of Burdell's cruelty and amorality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Proved too much for the jury to overlook. And they simply couldn't find Emma guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

[B]

I feel like the biggest thing would be that medical expert completely refuting everything that the other one said.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

That would leave, like, so much room for revenge.

[A]

And there's no real evidence tying her directly to it.

[B]

Yeah. No, not at all.

[A]

So, with Emma acquitted of the murder, she and her daughters were now free to return to 31 Bond street, pending the outcome. Pending the outcome of the matter of Berdell's estate. Yeah. Before the surrogate court. And also, Emma's acquittal automatically resulted in the charges against John Eckel being dropped.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so he, too, was free to go.

[B]

Nice.

[A]

Now, Emma's acquittal resolved the criminal charges against her, but there was still the unresolved matter of, like you just said, Harvey's estate. Right. And she maintained that as his wife, she was entitled. At the time, marriages were documented by the church. And although Emma had a document signed by Reverend Marvin, the Burdell family argued that the document was a forgery and Harvey would have never married Emma.

[B]

Rude.

[A]

Further complicating matters for Emma was the existence of minor children in the Burdell family, giving the court an additional reason to sympathize with the Burdells. In light of her acquittal, her defense team did their best to portray her in the most sympathetic way they could. Painting a picture of a woman, now twice widowed, whose reputation had been dragged through the mud by a vindictive prosecutor. This, they hope, was going to win them sympathy for the surrogate court and give them cause to overlook the contradictions in Emma's timeline of events.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But never one to pin all her hopes on one strategy, Emma began concocting a new scheme while still locked up in the tombs prior to her acquittal. According to her affidavit, signed by Emma's personal physician, Dr. Samuel Catlin, quote, whilst in prison, she told me that she was with child. I have no recollection of any positive statement from her that she was with child by the late Harvey Burdell, but that was my inference from our conversation.

[B]

So she's preggers.

[A]

She's preggers. Or that's what she's saying?

[B]

I was gonna say maybe.

[A]

Closing arguments in the estate case were given at the end of June, and the surrogate was scheduled to deliver his decision in August. So in the meantime, Emma played up the pregnancy charade, claiming she was due to deliver Harvey's baby in early August. Okay. Given that she hadn't mentioned the pregnancy before, everyone involved in the case immediately was like. Excuse me, like, immediate suspicion. When Emma did indeed produce a baby in early August, claiming he was the heir to the Burdell estate.

[B]

Where the fuck did she find a baby if it wasn't hers?

[A]

As Harvey Burdell's widow, Emma would have been entitled to a portion of the state. However, as the mother of Harvey's only heir, she would have access to the entire thing. Oh, my God.

[B]

Where did she find this baby child?

[A]

The suspicious claims of a newly produced heir were themselves a reason to suspect fraud. But for Okie hall, our guy over there with the sweat guy.

[B]

So sweaty.

[A]

Who had been receiving intense criticism for handling his handling of the murder trial, the claim was a new opportunity to salvage his reputation.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

In fact, when hall learned that EMMA had approached Dr. David U. One of the doctors who testified for the defense in the criminal trial, and asked for help in procuring a suitable heir, he saw the perfect opportunity to lay a trap for Emma. Oh, my God. Because he was like, whoa. You went. Trying to find a baby. To pass offices, hall told the doctor to return to Emma and agree to help get a baby in exchange for a thousand dollars.

[B]

Hello, baby.

[A]

And to tell Emma that he had located a baby whose mother had been quote, quote, summoned west by her newly rich husband, and she couldn't take the child with her. Okay. In reality, hall had simply pure procured a baby from the indigent ward at Bellevue Hospital. Oh, and the indigent means like the poor?

[B]

Yeah, like, without a mama. Like an orphanage.

[A]

And this at Bellevue Hospital is obviously like a mental health facility. With the help of his longtime friend and hospital staff member, Dr. Montagny.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Emma's attempts to use pregnancy to fraudulently access Harvey's estate.

[B]

Emma's attempt to procure a baby.

[A]

To procure a fake baby required a little bit of theater, but they were nothing compared to the scheme hall concocted to Catch her in that lie.

[B]

This is so fun.

[A]

On August 3, Dr. Ul went to the house on Bond street and was followed by a set of monogrammed luggage made specifically for the Ruth in order to convince Emma the baby had come from a well to do family.

[B]

We got luggage for this show, so.

[A]

He had super fancy luggage with him. He goes there, he's like, look, this is a fancy. A fancy baby that you borrow. Later that evening, officers waited outside the residence on Bond Street. And when Emma emerged carrying what they believed to be the baby, they followed her to a residence in the Bowery.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

I stayed there where they waited outside and listened as Emma moaned in a theatrical recreation of giving birth.

[B]

My jaws on the floor.

[A]

Yeah. When she emerged.

[B]

Giving birth at the Bowery.

[A]

Yeah. Just giving birth at the Bowery. When she emerged, she was again carrying the baby, this time in a basket the officers recognized as the one created for the scheme by the prosecutor's office.

[B]

I love it right now.

[A]

Then they followed her back to the house on Bond street and waited for further instructions. Inside the house, Dr. Ul had helped Emma set the scene to look as though it was the home of somebody who'd just given birth, including the creation of fake afterbirth prepared with lamb's blood.

[B]

Blink, blink.

[A]

I told you this gets crazy.

[B]

Fake afterbirth?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Lamb's blood.

[B]

I'm not following any of that up with any kind of.

[A]

They also covered a set of sheets with some of the blood and got a placenta.

[B]

These motherfuckers not only procured a baby, but they procured a placenta?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where the fuck did they get a. Was it a human placenta?

[A]

That I don't know. But they got a placenta. Hello. Which. Which they put in the cupboard for safekeeping.

[B]

Why? Oh, yeah, I just keep my placenta in the cupboard.

[A]

Oh, sure.

[B]

Let me just go grab some placenta out of my placenta cupboard.

[A]

What? Basically, if anyone had been suspicious of the pregnancy story, it seemed like Emma had thought of everything she could to convince placenta.

[B]

The only way me and Drew call polenta placenta. So whenever we have polenta in the fridge, I'm like, oh, there's placenta in.

[A]

The center of the fridge.

[B]

I guess I should put it in the cabinet.

[A]

Well, what's funny is, like, Emma thought of everything that she could to convince somebody she had given birth. But what she didn't plan on was how Okie hall, our guy over there, Abraham okie Hall, Sweaty McGee, was ready for revenge. Like, she did not plan on how far he Would go.

[B]

He said, don't with my.

[A]

He said, no. Later that evening, officers raided the house on Bond street and found the baby lying beside Emma, who appeared to be genuinely quite ill in her bed. At first, she protested, telling the officers that the baby was hers and showing them the. The evidence of its birth. But the story quickly fell apart when Emma was informed that the baby had been marked with lunar caustic under its arms and behind its ears. That's like silver nitrate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And its navel had been tied with a particular string, meaning it could be easily identified as the baby taken from Bellevue the previous day.

[B]

They just, like, tied a string around its belly.

[A]

Yeah, like, because when you cut the umbilical cord, there's, like. Now they put a little, like, clamp thing on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That part of the belly button falls off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Eventually, they tied that with a string, like, a particular string. So they would know. That's cool. Yeah. They made sure, like, they weren't gonna this up, that it couldn't be. Nothing would slip through as, like, no, this is my baby and you can't prove it. They were like, no, we can prove it in several ways.

[B]

I didn't know that that was a clamp. I thought that was a piece of the umbilical cord.

[A]

Yeah, well, it is.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

But it, like, there's a little, like.

[B]

I didn't know they were holding it there.

[A]

Then it falls off. And that's why, like. Because they basically, like, you know, your belly button, like, closes up, cuts the umbilical cord.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's a little bit sticking out. They clamp it, and then that part that's sticking out will fall off.

[B]

That's crazy. I didn't know they clamped it.

[A]

Yeah, it's like a little. I don't know how to describe it. I feel like it's a little plastic clamp kind of thing.

[B]

That's crazy. Baby belly buttons are so gross.

[A]

It's crazy. But they identified it as the baby that was taken from Bellevue. Paul even went so far as to produce the baby's real mother, who just a few months later would capitalize on her child's notoriety by cutting a deal to exhibit the child at P.T. barnum's Museum in Manhattan.

[B]

Guys, we have to stop doing this to babies.

[A]

We do have to stop putting them in exhibits.

[B]

Stop putting babies in exhibits.

[A]

20, 25. I mean, that's something that's been a real problem. Is babies being exhibited in Circus Museum.

[B]

Something I'll always stand out against?

[A]

I feel like we have to stop.

[B]

We have to stop this. It's a real problem.

[A]

It's an epidemic. It is the amount of circus museums that are popping up.

[B]

That's what my next babies in. That's what my next charity dinner will be for. That's how I'm going to get on the Real Housewives. My cause that I'm against is mothers putting babies in museums.

[A]

Not just museums. Circus museum.

[B]

Stop putting your babies in circus museum.

[A]

This is serious. Dig into your wallets. Don't you want this to stop?

[B]

I just create like a Ponzi scheme. This is so serious. Donate today. Donate today.

[A]

Only you can stop babies from being exhibited in PT Bon Museum.

[B]

I just send people random pictures throughout the year. I'm like, donate again. Just stop the babies.

[A]

This is.

[B]

This is the baby you saved from.

[A]

Being in a circus museum.

[B]

He's now eight and out of the circus museums for six years. What the are we even talking about?

[A]

Was taken into custody and she was charged with fraud.

[B]

Like I'll be if I do the fraudulent.

[A]

But Henry Clinton quickly got the charges dismissed when he pointed out the lengths that the prosecutor's office had gone to.

[B]

I'm like, what your client went to.

[A]

It's pretty bad on both sides.

[B]

Put a placenta in her cabinet.

[A]

Nevertheless, Emma's scheme had been exposed and her reputation completely ruined. Both of which had a seriously negative effect on the surrogate court court's decision in the estate case.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clinton did his best to salvage what he could, arguing that the pregnancy and the baby shouldn't influence the claim of widows benefits being considered by a court. But like it should because she was trying to fake an heir to get the entire thing.

[B]

It's also like, if it shouldn't matter, then why the did she go to all that trouble?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Like she's the one that kind of made this a thing.

[A]

And on August 24th, surrogate Bradford delivered his decision, ruling again against Emma Cunningham.

[B]

That's probably good.

[A]

Although she managed to avoid prosecution for the baby scheme, Emma's reputation was completely.

[B]

Yeah, she stole a baby.

[A]

Shortly after the cases had been resolved, Henry Clinton gave an interview to the press in which he said the public career of Mrs. Cunningham Burdell began with the most startling and thrilling tragedy. It ended in thoroughly disgusting low comedy. Yeah.

[B]

Pretty much.

[A]

Out of money and thoroughly disgraced, Emma left New York and headed to California, where she eventually remarried. Emma did return to New York in 1887 and lived with a cousin before dying a year later.

[B]

Emma.

[A]

The murder of Harvey Burdell remains unsolved. Does it? And Given the number of people with ill will towards him, the pool of suspects could have been quite large.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

She is very a good suspect.

[B]

But that doesn't mean that there's not others.

[A]

They did say. I mean I'm not saying she. I don't know whether she was like known as being having like considerable strength or not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the doctor did say it would take a considerably strong person. I also know that rage and pent up aggression can make you strong in the moment.

[B]

Yeah. Like adrenaline.

[A]

She's also a left handed person and the doctor said it was right handed but the other doctor said left handed. So it's all a little much confusion here. Wish washy. But the prosecutor's office chose to follow the press and public in their pursuit against Emma Cunningham and that's why she was the number one suspect.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And basically they kind of just went with the narrative of she's a greedy woman scorned by her equally amoral lover. Yeah. Which is true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like that is the way it is, but doesn't make you a murderer. Right. It's true that Emma had hoped that the whole thing with Harvey was going to return her to a life of wealth and status, but she also just like wanted his love and attention. Yeah.

[B]

She was just looking at.

[A]

Yeah. Fortunately for Emma, while she may not have been successful at getting either of those things, but others helped her achieve one small part of her goal in death. In 2007, historian and author Benjamin Feldman partnered with the Greenwood Cemetery where Harvey and Emma are buried to erect two markers side by side, one representing Harvey and the other Emma.

[B]

Do you think either of them would have wanted that?

[A]

That's what I wonder.

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

I wonder if Emma would have liked. Liked the, the facade of it because she liked the idea that she was a wife. Right. Didn't necessarily like, you know, he wasn't great.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think he would have wanted that. I think he would want that. Which I think as much of a scoundrel as he was like, that's kind of shitty. Did you do that?

[B]

Why do that?

[A]

You know, just because his family probably didn't want that.

[B]

No.

[A]

It's interesting though.

[B]

Yeah, maybe. What an ending.

[A]

I know. So now they just have side by side markers.

[B]

Damn. That's really weird.

[A]

Emma Cunningham and the murder of Harvey Burdell.

[B]

You delivered on the twists and the turns.

[A]

I told you it's a we crazy one. That was something. People were so scandalous in the 1800s.

[B]

They were scoundrelly and scandally and girly.

[A]

Yell about the the validity of old timey cases.

[B]

Yeah. As you should.

[A]

And I'll keep proven that they're good.

[B]

Time and they're kind again and that they have cane solds.

[A]

Yeah. Parasol stores.

[B]

And placenta cabinets.

[A]

Yeah, placenta cabinets.

[B]

Where else are you going to find a placenta cabinet? Exactly.

[A]

Exactly. And babies being exhibited in P.T. barnum's Circus Museum.

[B]

You won't find that around.

[A]

You won't find that because we're going to start a petition against it.

[B]

Stopping it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening.

[A]

We hope you keep it weird, but.

[B]

Not so weird that you keep putting the babies in the circus museums and.

[A]

You don't donate to help. Stop it.

[B]

Stop the madness.

[A]

Stop those babies from being exhibited in PT Bonham's Circus Museum. This is the foundation against babies being exhibited in P.T. bottom Circus Museum.

[B]

We're workshopping today.

[A]

It'll get snappier.

[B]

Sam.

[A]

Sa.

[B]

Foreign.

[C]

There's a reason Chevy trucks are known for their dependability. It's because they show up no matter the weather, push forward no matter the terrain, and deliver. That's why Chevrolet has earned more dependability awards for trucks than any other brand in 2025, according to J. J.D.

[B]

Power.

[C]

Because in every Chevy truck, like every Chevy driver, dependability comes standard. Visit Chevy.com to learn more. Chevrolet received the highest total number of awards among all trucks in the J.D. power 2025 U.S. vehicle Dependability Study Awards based on 2022 models. Newer models may be shown. Visit J.D. power.com awards for more details. Chevrolet together. Let's drive.

[D]

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