Episode 600: Winnie Ruth Judd: The Trunk Murderess

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Network | Wondery
Episode 600: Winnie Ruth Judd: The Trunk Murderess
Release Date: September 12, 2024

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Introduction

In Episode 600 of Morbid, hosts Ash and Elena delve into the enigmatic and chilling case of Winnie Ruth Judd, infamously known as the "Trunk Murderess." This episode meticulously explores Judd's life, the circumstances leading up to the grisly murders, the subsequent investigation, and the controversial trial that captivated the nation.

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Early Life and Marriage

Birth and Childhood Struggles
Winnie Ruth Judd, born Ruth McKennell on January 29, 1905, in Oxford, Indiana, faced significant health challenges early in life. At just four years old, she contracted tuberculosis, a battle that would shape much of her adulthood.

Ash notes at [06:02]:
"Ruth had a sickly childhood, battling pneumonia as a newborn and tuberculosis at four. These early health struggles profoundly impacted her later life."

Marriage to William Judd
In 1924, at age 19, Ruth married William Judd, a doctor and World War I veteran over 20 years her senior. Hoping for a happy marriage, Ruth initially found solace in her new life in Mexico, where William sought employment with an American mining company.

Elena reflects at [10:03]:
"Ruth expected marriage to mirror her happy upbringing, but reality soon diverged from her aspirations."

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Decline of the Marriage and Personal Struggles

Health Deterioration and Infidelity
By 1927, Ruth's tuberculosis worsened, leading to the loss of her pregnancy and significant strain on her marriage. William's morphine addiction exacerbated their financial and emotional instability, prompting an informal separation in 1930. Ruth relocated to Phoenix, Arizona, seeking a dry climate to aid her health, while William continued his struggles with addiction.

Ash explains at [12:17]:
"The separation marked the beginning of Ruth's descent into isolation and mounting personal turmoil."

Formation of Friendships and Increased Isolation
In Phoenix, Ruth formed a close-knit group with Agnes Ann Leroy (Anne) and Hedvig Sammy Samuelson (Sammy), both of whom were also new to the city. Their camaraderie provided Ruth with much-needed support amidst her ongoing health and marital issues.

[14:19] Ash:
"Ruth's friendships with Anne and Sammy became a cornerstone of her social life, though living together eventually led to tension."

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The Murders

Affair with Happy Jack Hallerin
Ruth became involved in an illicit affair with Jack Hallerin, a married Phoenix businessman known as "Happy Jack." This affair introduced jealousy and distrust into Ruth's relationships, particularly affecting her bond with her friends Anne and Sammy.

Elena comments at [19:30]:
"Happy Jack's involvement complicated Ruth's already fragile state, sowing seeds of jealousy and mistrust among her friends."

Conflict Leading to Murder
On the night of October 16, 1931, Ruth planned to date Jack but declined an invitation from Anne and Sammy to dinner, intending to confront Jack instead. Frustrated by his absence, Ruth accepted the invitation later that evening. A heated argument ensued, purportedly over Ruth's manipulative actions intended to sabotage Jack's relationships. According to Ruth's letter, Sammy threatened to expose Ruth's deceit, leading to a physical confrontation.

Ash narrates at [24:30]:
"The night escalated from a simple dinner to a deadly conflict fueled by jealousy and betrayal."

The Murders and Dismemberment
During the confrontation, Ruth allegedly shot Anne and Sammy in self-defense. Following the murders, she dismembered their bodies and concealed the remains in multiple trunks before boarding a train to Los Angeles. The disposal of the bodies in trunks added a macabre layer to the case, making Judd's actions particularly notorious.

Elena observes at [33:05]:
"Dismembering the bodies and placing them in trunks was a calculated move, underscoring the brutality of the crimes."

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Investigation and Evidence

Discovery of the Bodies
Upon arrival in Los Angeles, baggage handlers detected a strong odor emanating from Ruth's trunks, leading to the discovery of the dismembered bodies. Forensic evidence, including bloody fingerprints and spent shell casings, linked the crimes directly to Ruth.

Ash states at [34:46]:
"The discovery of the bodies in the trunks was the turning point that led authorities directly to Ruth."

Ruth's Attempted Escape and Arrest
Despite initial attempts to flee with the help of her brother, Ruth was apprehended after the police identified her through the evidence left behind. Her emotional demeanor during arrest contrasted sharply with the horrifying nature of her crimes, baffling many who expected a more menacing suspect.

[49:29] Ash:
"Contrary to the public's expectations, Ruth appeared frail and disoriented upon her arrest."

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The Trial

Courtroom Dynamics and Psychiatric Evaluations
During the trial, Ruth's behavior was erratic, culminating in an outburst that questioned her mental state. Her defense invoked the irresistible impulse doctrine, suggesting temporary insanity drove her actions. However, prosecution psychiatrists contested this, presenting evidence of Ruth's calculated efforts to conceal her crimes.

Elena remarks at [57:16]:
"Ruth's courtroom behavior added layers of complexity to her defense, making it difficult to ascertain her true mental state."

Verdict and Sentencing
After deliberations, the jury found Ruth Judd guilty of first-degree murder. Despite her claims of self-defense and insanity, the overwhelming evidence and multiple confessions led to a swift conviction. She was sentenced to death, a decision that ignited debates about gender biases and the influence of sensational media coverage on the trial's outcome.

Ash notes at [70:12]:
"The guilty verdict reflected the undeniable evidence against Ruth, overshadowing her defense claims."

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Aftermath and Legacy

Imprisonment and Escapes
Ruth served time in the Arizona State Hospital for the Insane, where she made multiple escape attempts—six in total—highlighting her persistent desire for freedom. Her final escape in 1962 allowed her to live undetected for seven years before her recapture.

Elena comments at [73:57]:
"Ruth's repeated escapes demonstrated her relentless struggle against confinement, further cementing her notorious legacy."

Parole and Later Life
In 1969, after decades of incarceration, Ruth was granted parole under strict conditions. She lived quietly in Phoenix until her death in 1998 at the age of 93. Her case remains a subject of fascination and debate, often cited in discussions about criminal psychology and the societal perceptions of female criminals.

Ash concludes at [75:26]:
"Ruth Judd's life story serves as a haunting reminder of the complexities behind criminal acts and the enduring questions they raise."

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Conclusion

The episode of Morbid offers a comprehensive exploration of Winnie Ruth Judd's life and crimes, shedding light on the intricate motivations and societal factors that influenced her actions. Through detailed narration and insightful commentary, Ash and Elena present a nuanced portrait of a woman driven to desperation, leaving listeners contemplating the thin line between sanity and madness.

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Notable Quotes

• Ash at [06:02]:
  "Ruth had a sickly childhood, battling pneumonia as a newborn and tuberculosis at four. These early health struggles profoundly impacted her later life."

• Elena at [10:03]:
  "Ruth expected marriage to mirror her happy upbringing, but reality soon diverged from her aspirations."

• Ash at [12:17]:
  "The separation marked the beginning of Ruth's descent into isolation and mounting personal turmoil."

• Ash at [14:19]:
  "Ruth's friendships with Anne and Sammy became a cornerstone of her social life, though living together eventually led to tension."

• Elena at [19:30]:
  "Happy Jack's involvement complicated Ruth's already fragile state, sowing seeds of jealousy and mistrust among her friends."

• Ash at [24:30]:
  "The night escalated from a simple dinner to a deadly conflict fueled by jealousy and betrayal."

• Elena at [33:05]:
  "Dismembering the bodies and placing them in trunks was a calculated move, underscoring the brutality of the crimes."

• Ash at [34:46]:
  "The discovery of the bodies in the trunks was the turning point that led authorities directly to Ruth."

• Elena at [57:16]:
  "Ruth's courtroom behavior added layers of complexity to her defense, making it difficult to ascertain her true mental state."

• Ash at [70:12]:
  "The guilty verdict reflected the undeniable evidence against Ruth, overshadowing her defense claims."

• Elena at [73:57]:
  "Ruth's repeated escapes demonstrated her relentless struggle against confinement, further cementing her notorious legacy."

• Ash at [75:26]:
  "Ruth Judd's life story serves as a haunting reminder of the complexities behind criminal acts and the enduring questions they raise."

---

This summary encapsulates the key elements of Episode 600, providing a thorough overview for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Ash]

Wondery plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. Hey everyone, let's talk about protein for a second. There's this rumor that getting plant based protein is tough, but listen, there are some amazing options out there even if you're not vegan. Adding more plant based protein to your diet is a fantastic way to nourish your body and support the planet. My good go to for tasty protein and superfood pack shake is Cachava. Every serving of Cachava offers 25 grams of 100% plant based protein. But that's not all this all in one shake has fiber, quality, fats, vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and so much more. I love that I can tick so many boxes with just one delicious shake. If you know me, you know that vanilla and chai are my favorite flavors and I like to combine them. But they also have chocolate, they've got matcha, and they've got coconut acai. I'm a big fan of the coconut acai as well. After drinking Kachava first thing in the morning because that's when I always drink it, I feel satiated for hours. I feel focused, calm and ready to take on my day. Something that I really love to do if I even want like a little bit more protein is just add a scoop of peanut butter to the vanilla and chai concoction that I make. And that oh is just scrum diddly umpious honey. Kachava is offering our listeners 10% off on their subscription for a limited time. Just go to kachava.commorbid spelled k a C H A v a and get 10% off your first order. That's K A C H A V A dot com morbid what's it like to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with at and T Next up Anytime? It's like when you first light up the grill and think of all the mouthwatering possibilities. Learn how to get the new iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence on AT and T and the latest iPhone every year with AT and T next up anytime ATT connecting changes everything. Apple Intelligence coming fall 2024 with Siri and device language set to US English. Some features and languages will be coming over the next year. $0 offer may not be available on future iPhones. Next up Anytime features may be discontinued at any time, subject to change additional fees. Terms and restrictions apply. See att.com iPhone for details hey, weirdos.

[Elena]

I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is Mor.

[Ash]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

I wanted to end that intro on a bang.

[Ash]

You did.

[Elena]

On a bang. Bang.

[Ash]

Pow, crash, boom.

[Elena]

I couldn't think of another thing.

[Ash]

That's wild. I wish you guys had seen her face. She literally went. She, like, pursed her lips and, like, raised her eyebrows. I've got Bar.

[Elena]

I was like, pow, crash, boom. That's all. That's all I got.

[Ash]

I'm still laughing at the. The Diet Coke decoration on my side of the shelf. It's not mine. I can. I know for 100% certainty that I didn't put that there.

[Elena]

We, like, you know, we. We did a big clean sweep of the pod lab, and we just, like, wanted to clear out all the yuckiness and anything that needed to get. We needed to get rid of.

[Ash]

We salted the rugs like we said we were going to.

[Elena]

We organized the bookshelves, and somehow. And I don't drink diet.

[Ash]

I know it's not you. I'm sorry, Mikey. I think it's you.

[Elena]

Call them out. 20, 24.

[Ash]

I'm old and I only drink seltzer water. No, you drink Diet Coke. And apparently, when you're finished with it, you decorate my nice, beautiful sound bath candle, sage, palo Santo shelf with another sacred thing.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Diet Coke. I'm going to leave it there. I love. That is who I am. That shelf.

[Elena]

That is who you are.

[Ash]

That is who I am. Candles, Palo Santo, my passion. The sound bowl. Big whole thing of black obsidian, more candles and an empty bottle of Diet Coke.

[Elena]

See, Mikey was just trying to make it more you.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's all you. You really. You. You jazzed up the shelf.

[Elena]

Succeeded.

[Ash]

I appreciate you. I love it. I'm looking like, yesterday, I was like, oh, I gotta throw that out. Today I'm looking at it. I'm like, no. Like, I'm gonna leave that there. That's not trash.

[Elena]

Maybe you should gild it.

[Ash]

What is. How do you gild it? In gold. Gold.

[Elena]

Yeah. No, you know, make it.

[Ash]

She's already. She's good as gold. As Sheena Shea would say. She's already doesn't even have her cap.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Someday she'll evaporate into this air.

[Elena]

There you go.

[Ash]

Or maybe not, because she's probably just toxic.

[Elena]

Probably.

[Ash]

Aren't we all? It's really.

[Elena]

It is.

[Ash]

Me and Elena went to a barre class this morning together, and it was fucking crazy. I have never felt so. Both dead, alive and heaving in my life. I'm not joking. You I actually did think I was going to throw up on the line.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

A little bit.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

I did not.

[Elena]

This was. This is one I've been going to because I tried to get into my. Into my fitness routine recently. So I've been going early, and then Ash came for the first time today, and it happened to be, like, a little more of an intense class. It wasn't, like, crazy more intense.

[Ash]

It was a little more normal, crazy intense. That shit rocked my world.

[Elena]

It was more than normal, I will say that.

[Ash]

No, it definitely was. It was fun, though.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I would do it again. I will.

[Elena]

You know, working on your fitness, that's all you can do.

[Ash]

That's all you can do. All you can do is decorate your shelf the way that you see fit and work on your fitness.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

All right, well.

[Elena]

And tell us a scary story.

[Ash]

And I can tell you. Yeah, this is a scary story.

[Elena]

Judging by the title of this one. It's. It's got some stuff.

[Ash]

Yeah. If somehow you are here and you didn't see the title, this is the story of Winnie Ruth Judd, the Trunk Murderous.

[Elena]

Yeah. That alone is really. Is really it. It sucked me in.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Winnie Ruth Judd is in fact, the Trunk Murderess. But before that, she was just win. Winnie Ruth McKennell. Yeah, McKennell. She went by Ruth most of her life. So instead of calling her Winnie, we're going to be calling her Ruth throughout the story.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So she was born January 29, 1905, in Oxford, Indiana. Her early life was pretty difficult right from the start. After she was born, like, not too long. Even after she was born, she ended up getting pneumonia, like, as a newborn.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

And when she was 4, she contracted tuberculosis, which obviously affected her throughout pretty much the rest of her life.

[Elena]

Yeah. You don't just shake that one off.

[Ash]

No. She's a sickly child, and then obviously kind of just traveled into adulthood like that. There's really not a lot of documentation related to her life before she got arrested. But she herself did claim that her early years were pretty happy ones. Like, even though she was sick a lot, she was still happy.

[Elena]

That's good.

[Ash]

In a letter written to her attorney in 1952, she said, My brother was 19 months younger than me, and we were very, very affectionate toward each other. My father was one of the most kindly and godly souls.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

He believed that everyone had some good in him. He addressed everyone as my good man and my good woman. The world would seem brighter just to talk to him.

[Elena]

That's really sweet. I want someone to say that about me.

[Ash]

I will someday.

[Elena]

Thanks.

[Ash]

The world seems brighter just to talk to her.

[Elena]

That's really nice.

[Ash]

It is. I just also love how people spoke back then.

[Elena]

That's the thing. Like, it's. It's, like, poetic.

[Ash]

It's so much. It's like people just spoke on such a deeper level about the people that they loved. Like. Cause at first, I was like, her and her brother were really affectionate toward each other. Like, is that weird? But it's like, no, they were just, like, affectionate. Like, they just, like, loved each other.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, that's the thing. It's like we look at it from a lens of now where we're like, what the book does that mean? And it's like, no, they just talked. They just talk different. Yeah, they like. They. They. They explain different things and, like, more flowery prose and it's. Yes, it's nice.

[Ash]

I like it.

[Elena]

And to us, it's a little jarring. Sometimes we're like, what do you mean by that?

[Ash]

Right? But they really just mean, like, I loved them, I assume.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's what they mean.

[Ash]

I couldn't find anything.

[Elena]

Like, I'm hoping. I'm not. I took my jaded cap off for a second. I'm like, should I put it back on?

[Ash]

Wait a second. Do I need this?

[Elena]

Wait a minute.

[Ash]

No, I don't think you need For. For this particular segment, Ruth spoke similarly of her mother, who she described as a kindly Christian woman, a bit timid, but a hardworking person, always willing to make a sacrifice for her family and others who needed her services and sickness. So it seems like they're a pretty normal family.

[Elena]

It seems pretty lovely.

[Ash]

We're pretty loving, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it seems like her home life was happy. It was positive. But other areas of her life were a bit less ordinary. She said that when she started going to school, she really realized pretty quickly that she didn't f. Fit in with the other kids. She was brought up in a really rigid religious household, so she had never gone to carnival. She had never gone to, like, a baseball game, a sports event, couldn't go to movies.

[Elena]

Oh, geez.

[Ash]

She really couldn't participate in any of the social activities that kids her age would have been engaging in at that point. She wrote, my mother did not think these things were wrong, but our church did not approve of it. So it wasn't so much like the parent. Like, I think at home, things were a little more happy and positive. But the parents, like, lived by the church's teachings and Said, like, well, we won't go to movies and we won't enjoy those things. But, like, it wasn't like, sit down and read the Bible and play.

[Elena]

Yeah. It's like, we have. We have a loving home, but it's. It doesn't sound like it's a fun home.

[Ash]

Yeah. No, I don't think there was a lot of room for fun and that limited socialization and lack of experience without. With really anything outside of her religious world. It would go on to play an important role in her adult life, especially when it related to her romantic relationships.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Because sometimes when it's, like, overly rigid.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Your romantic relationships get a little weird.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Other things get a little weird.

[Elena]

It's got to leak out somewhere, you know?

[Ash]

So. In 1924, when she was 19 years old, Ruth married William Judd, a doctor and World War I veteran. With. He was more than 20 years her senior, so a little bit old.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ash]

All right. Having grown up in a loving household, Ruth had a lot of ideas about what marriage should be. But she quickly Learned Life as Mrs. William Judd was not going to be anything like her parents. Happy marriage. Author Jana. I think it's Bombersbach. She wrote the Trunk Murderous. Said, forget the image of a nice family doctor who settled in a community, supplying his wife with a home and respectability. Unfortunately, that's not what was going to happen at all. Judd was addicted to morphine, which may have actually been the result of injuries that he sustained during the war. But because his addiction was so strong, he struggled to find and to keep steady work. After their wedding in 1924, they packed up everything they owned and decided to move to Mexico, where William started working for an American mining company, which I think we talked about mining in one of my last episodes. It was like a. I mean, he was a doctor. Like, damn, he. And I think just because of his addiction, he couldn't really swing it anymore. Like, mining was like a last stitch.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Kind of seriously, like, it was the last job you were really going to go for, But. So at first, the Judd's marriage was a happy one. Like, in the beginning, it was. It seemed pretty all right. And Ruth was writing letters home telling her parents that she was enjoying Mexico. The people were so nice. She was working on learning how to speak Spanish. And that happiness seemed to last a few years. And Ruth eventually became pregnant. But unfortunately, in 1927, her tuberculosis got worse and she had to be hospitalized for a short period. And during that period, she lost the baby.

[Elena]

Oh, that's sad.

[Ash]

And she and William decided that her health was probably too poor for her to really ever carry a child. It just didn't seem like something that was going to be likely.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So from there, things really only got worse. Cuz that's like a big blow. Obviously, if the. If you think you want to have children and then one day you realize, like, it's probably not the best idea. Like. Yeah, I can't imagine how that would feel.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's a tough blow.

[Ash]

Yeah. So Ruth returned to Mexico, but the humid climate of the region seemed to make her TB worse. So she was never in good health while they were there. And to make matters worse, Judd's addiction had finally caught up with him. And he got fired from his mining job, which caused even more stress and really further strained their already fragile relationship. In letters home to her parents, Ruth never mentioned Judd's addiction problems, never mentioned their marital troubles or really how unhappy she'd become. Instead, her letters were, quote, always cheery, always filled with the promise that the setbacks would be overcome. She was very positive.

[Elena]

Yeah. Sticking it out.

[Ash]

And the lack of her sharing her frustrations was probably an attempt to keep her family from finding out that her husband was not really a successful doctor and she was not really content with life. But the truth was, Ruth and William hadn't been happy for quite some time by this point. And Ruth had grown really tired of making excuses and lying to her family.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So in 1930, they decided to informally separate, with Ruth moving to Phoenix, Arizona, where she hoped the dry climate would help improve her TB. At the time, this was pretty risky. It's 1930, she's a woman, she has no income, she really doesn't know anybody in the area. And she didn't have a ton of skills that were going to help her find a job. But luckily she was able to find a job as a medical secretary at the gr. I think it's Gruno Clinic. After she lied in her interview and assured her new employer that she had experience as a typist. She did.

[Elena]

She did not know, but she was.

[Ash]

Like, I can do it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Her lie became apparent rather quickly. They were like, I don't think you know what you're doing, but. And she just, like, couldn't keep up with the pace or anything. But her boss liked her so much. Just thought like, she was such a nice person that he was like, I'm going to. I'm going to bear with you and you'll learn.

[Elena]

We're going to stick this up.

[Ash]

Yeah. So her position required her to work six days a week. And she was paid 75amonth, which is not a lot.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Like I said, the salary was small. And after paying her rent and her other expenses, she sent what was whatever was left over to her husband. At that point, he had moved to California looking for a new job. So with little free time and essentially no money, Ruth treasured the time that she spent with her new best friends. Agnes Ann Leroy, who went by Anne, and her roommate, Hedvig Sammy Samuelson. They were co. Sammy was a coworker from the clinic. Anne and Sammy had been friends for a while, and then all three women bonded over having moved to Arizona around the same time and trying to make it on their own with no man to support them.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So they were like, we're girly pops. We're out here.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[Ash]

We're new in town and we're getting it done.

[Elena]

We're new in town.

[Ash]

Yeah. So not long after Ann and Sammy arrived in Phoenix, William Judd joined his wife in Arizona. And for a time, things were good again. William got along with Ruth's new friends, and the four of them hung out a lot as a group at one another's apartments. But unfortunately, the good times didn't last really long. Judd's addiction problems were just as bad as they had been, if not worse. And his inability to find steady work meant that he was gone for a lot of the time as he was looking for work in other places.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And at the same time, things had actually started to take a downturn for Ruth's friends. Like Ruth, Sammy had chosen Phoenix in the hope that the climate would improve her tuberculosis. But by late spring, her condition had gotten worse, and she had to make the decision to enter a sanitarium in Portland, Oregon, for treatment. I said Oregon. You heard it.

[Elena]

Oregon.

[Ash]

Oregon. I said it correctly.

[Elena]

Not like. Not to be confused with the Oregon.

[Ash]

Trail, because that's what it is. Oregon anyway. Oregon.

[Elena]

Don't worry.

[Ash]

Just kidding. Unable to maintain her job and support, Sammy and made the decision to leave her job and travel with her friend to Oregon. So Sammy and Anne are now in Oregon for a little bit. In August of 1931, Sammy got discharged from that sanitarium, and she and Anne moved back to Phoenix. So they were all reunited again. So it was like a little. I think it was like about a year. Yeah. Maybe like nine months to a year.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So now, without jobs or income, Ruth offered to move in with them, and the three shared a small, pretty cramped apartment. They had been the best of friends for Months. But there's a big difference between hanging out together when you want to and having to be together all the fucking time and sharing a living space, and a very small one at that.

[Elena]

That's a very different situation.

[Ash]

And also with stress of, like, having no money and a lot of things going on in your personal life. So before long, they started having what one friend described as, quote, unquote, petty arguments over everything.

[Elena]

Cool.

[Ash]

Yay.

[Elena]

Fun.

[Ash]

Also, three girls doesn't usually work out. Yeah. In my experience, three is not the best number for friendships.

[Elena]

Yeah. With girls, specifically. Yeah, I was gonna say that. I can speak from that point of view, too. Like, it's never. That's a tough one.

[Ash]

It can work. Like, I'm not saying it never works, but.

[Elena]

But it has the. It has the more of a tendency.

[Ash]

To go awry because one person ends up feeling left out a lot of times. And like they say, three is a crowd.

[Elena]

Three is a crowd.

[Ash]

But fortunately, in early October, Anne managed to get her job back at the clinic, and Ruth happily moved out of the apartment and found her own place just a few blocks away. In a letter to her fiance sent in late September, Anne wrote. Ruth is leaving us in a few days. It really hasn't worked out so well having the three of us. We are very fond of her, and she's a sweet girl, but three just seems to be a wrong number when one is used to living by oneself and just one other very congenial one. So when William was in town, the four friends tended to socialize as a group. Like I said, they got along really well. When he was away, though, the three friends, all really young, all very beautiful women, were known to throw parties that were attended by large numbers of businessmen, married and unmarried.

[Elena]

Oh, scandal. That is scandal waiting to happen.

[Ash]

It sure is. Journalist Don Deirdre, I think it is said in this town at the time. This is my favorite quote of this entire thing. Are you guys ready? He's ready. Hanky was the name and Panky was the game.

[Elena]

Shut the fuck up.

[Ash]

I will never recover.

[Elena]

That's an amazing quote.

[Ash]

It's my favorite quote, I think, in a case ever. Hanky was the name and Pinky was the game.

[Elena]

I feel like I see some, like, old gumshoe, like, detective with a big.

[Ash]

Old cigar hanging out of his mouth, smoking. Yeah.

[Elena]

Standing on. In, like, an alleyway with, like, a. One beam of light coming down from a. From a. A street light.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

And this fog rolling through.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

He says Hanky was the game. What was it? Hanky Hanky was the name and Panky was the game. Wow.

[Ash]

It's my favorite thing ever.

[Elena]

I love that a lot.

[Ash]

I love it so much. So among the more popular and more like regular of their party guests was Jack. Happy Jack Hallerin. Oh, they called him Happy Jack.

[Elena]

Happy Jack. Oh, I saw a face there.

[Ash]

He might have been a douche. I don't know.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Yeah. He was a Phoenix area businessman. He was in his 40s. He lavished the three friends with gifts. He was just like, you know, Happy Jack, just giving you gifts, showing up at your party.

[Elena]

So he's like happy Time Jack.

[Ash]

Yes. Kind of being more like that because in addition to being what one friend described as a quote, about as prominent of a man as you'd find in Phoenix in those days, he was also married and a father of three children. But that rarely stopped him from spending his nights in the company of other women, like, aside from his wife.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah, I kind of got that idea.

[Ash]

Yeah. So unknown to Green Sammy and William, Ruth had actually met Happy Jack in early January, and they had been carrying on a clandestine affair since then.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Things escalated quickly. Yeah.

[Elena]

Apparently.

[Ash]

Yeah. Oh my God. So many responsibilities every single day, just juggling them. Work, finances, schedule. Some of you people even have kids and that's crazy. I have always tried to manage my stress in like the best way that I can. I love to have like a little me time. I love a self care routine. And one of the things that I've just implemented into my self care routine is ritual stress relief. Start your morning with ritual stress relief. This product uses first of its kind technology to support the body's natural cortisol response so you can take on the daily juggle. I heard about stress relief and I said, well, that's for me. Sign me up. And ritual was nice enough to send me some. I've been taking it for a few weeks now and waking up in the morning, I definitely am noticing the difference. Ritual actually suggests taking stress relief in the morning when cortisol is typically at its peak. To support the body's natural cortisol response with an instant and extended release formulation for all day support. The juggle is real. Don't just respond to stress. Get ahead of it with stress relief from Ritual. Get 25% off your first month at Ritual.com morbid start Ritual or add stress relief to your subscription today. That's ritual.commorbid for 25% off.

[Elena]

Peloton has a ton of training programs such as pilates, boxing marathon, prep, strength Training boot camps. There's so many ways to challenge yourself. And personally, I am always trying to do just that. I'm trying to do just a little bit more each week to build on my best. And Peloton helps because you can see your actual progress right there on the screen. It's honestly something that's so motivating to me.

[Ash]

I love it.

[Elena]

And whether it's trying to get a new PR or working towards shaving time off your mile, the instructors, classes and programs make you want to dig deep and get after it. My personal favorites are, of course, my Bradley Rose. He is always making me laugh and always making me feel so motivated. But I also have found some new instructors that I love, like Robin Arzone. She's so motivating. She makes me feel like I can push a mountain. She's amazing. So they push me hard enough to feel like I can beat my best. Find your push, find your power. With [e-mail].

[Ash]

According to Jana Baumersbach, Ruth, quote, wanted to get pregnant by Halloran. And he'd pledged to her that regardless of his other flirtation, she was the only one he wanted. But despite what he told her, Ruth knew Jack had also been spending time with Ann and Sammy, and he had been supplying their parties with alcohol. So she had reason to devout to doubt his devotion to her. She also knew that he'd been giving Ann and Sammy some money, and she also was, like, seeing him flirt with them and other people at their party shamelessly. Yeah, constantly. And while they may not have known the extent of Jack and Ruth's relationship, Sammy and Anne definitely realized that she captured a certain amount of his attention whenever they were together. So basically everybody's just suspicious of everybody at this point.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

Yeah. And when it came to Jack Oleren, they all had reason to be jealous.

[Elena]

Of each other, of course.

[Ash]

So it's a mess.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's. I was gonna say, this is just a.

[Ash]

This is so messy and it escalates so quickly. Like, so quickly. It usually does. Yeah. On the night of October 16, 1931, Ann and Sammy called Ruth and they were like, hey, do you want to come over for dinner? But since she had planned a date with Jack, she declined and said she just had lots of work to catch up on.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Yeah. Then several hours passed and she still hadn't heard from Jack, who she was supposed to have a date with. So she's like, pissed off, she's annoyed, she's irritated. So rather than, you know, just stay at her apartment and wait for him. She was like, you know, you know what? I'm gonna go take Ann and Sammy up on their invitation just for her. Yeah. And she figured that if Jack did end up showing up, she would be sending the message that she wasn't the kind of gal who was just gonna sit around and wait for him.

[Elena]

No. All the guys know it wouldn't be right to leave your best girl home on a Saturday night. What's that from, the beach boys?

[Ash]

Listen to you. Listen to you.

[Elena]

So.

[Ash]

So she arrived at Ann and Sammy's apartment a little after 9:30 that night. And she's like, oh, I finished all my work sooner than I expected. They're like, okay. And she's like, yeah, I just figured I would take you up on your invitation. So they sat up, they had dinner together. You know, they were shooting the gossiping girls, just being girls. But since an and Ruth had to work the next day, they decided to call it a night. A little before midnight, they said by that time, the Charlie had stopped running, though, and Ruth would have had to walk home. So they just like. Sammy and Anne were like, no, you shouldn't walk home in the middle of the night. Why don't you stay on the couch? And she was like, yeah, that's. So that's a good plan. Now, what happened next has been a matter of debate for decades. And even Ruth herself has given various, slightly different explanations, like, depending on when she tells the story. So it's kind of unclear what. What exactly happened between the three of them.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And the statement that Ruth would give. Less than a week later, she claimed I had gone to the girl's home to remonstrate with Ms. Samuelson. Sammy, for some nasty things she said about Ms. Leroy. And Ms. Samuelson got a hold of a gun and shot me in the left hand. I struggled with her, and the gun fell. Ms. Leroy grabbed an ironing board and started to strike me over the head with it. In the struggle, I got hold of the gun and Sammy got shot. Ms. Leroy was still coming at me with the ironing board, and so I had to shoot her. I told you something quickly.

[Elena]

I feel like it just was like, ba, bam. Like, just whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

A gun is now involved. And.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

In an ironing board and an ironing board. For some reason, the notion of, like, bopping someone over the head with an iron ironing board sounds funny. In theory, yes. And then when you actually think about it, you're like, damn, ironing boards are hurt. Like, that is gnarly. So. I'm like, damn, that would be scary. Because at first I was like, that's a silly image of somebody, like, bopping.

[Ash]

Someone with an ironing board.

[Elena]

But then I'm like, no, that's a little scary, actually, because it's really just.

[Ash]

Like, metal with, like.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It's not even, like, a cushion on top. It's like, a board. Yeah. I think it's just like.

[Elena]

And it's like somebody's, like, slamming you with an iron. That's crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Who knows if that really happened?

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

I know, because there was another version of the incident where Ruth said that she and Sammy got into a heated argument, and Sammy had, quote, come at her with a gun in the kitchen. And then in order to defend herself, Ruth said that she grabbed a bread knife off the counter and stabbed Sammy.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

And then she ended up shooting her while they were both struggling on the floor for the gun. And then she said Anne tried to break up the fight by hitting her with the ironing board. So that's why she shot her next.

[Elena]

Well, and here's the thing, the irony. I'm back to the ironing board. You don't shoot someone that's coming at you with an ironing board.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

You don't bring a gun to an ironing board fight. Like, you just don't like the known. That's wild behavior. Like, that's reckless.

[Ash]

Something in her, I think, just snapped.

[Elena]

It certainly seems that way.

[Ash]

And then.

[Elena]

Because there's no justification here that I'm seeing.

[Ash]

Yeah. And I don't mean, like, snapped as, like, I don't know if she there ends up being, like, this whole debate over whether she's insane, like, criminally or not.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I don't know that she is or isn't.

[Elena]

Like, when you could just be, like, snapped, as in, like.

[Ash]

Like, the TV show snapped.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, she'd come to a point where she couldn't take it anymore and she snapped. Not that she snapped from reality.

[Ash]

Right. Exactly. Thank you. I don't know. I'm interested to see what you think, because things escalate even more from here to the point where you're just like. But it goes on for so long that you're like. Well, it's not just a moment where.

[Elena]

Where she snapped out of reality for a second and, like, lost it.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

It feels like there's probably more that's gonna happen here that I'm gonna be, like, considering. Like, a trunk is in the title.

[Ash]

Yeah. The trunk is coming up.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. That's the thing so. So that she has her stories, she has a couple different versions of them. They're all pretty similar, but there's just like little aspects that change from time to time. The state, meanwhile, would present a very different version of events during trial. In their version, all three women were arguing over Jack Holleran. And after Anne and Sammy had gone to bed, the prosecution claimed that Ruth snuck into their bedrooms and shot each one of them in the head, shooting Anne first.

[Elena]

That's cold blooded.

[Ash]

And then they said when Sammy heard the gunshot, she woke up and threw her hand out in a defensive gesture. And that's why she had a bullet hole in her hand.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

And they said that was quickly followed by the fatal gunshot to her head.

[Elena]

Which would make sense because you get shot through the hand and then you're like reeling from getting shot in the hand. It leaves you vulnerable to.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

A shot in the head and you're.

[Ash]

Sleeping in bed like. Yeah, you've just woke up already vulnerable, you know. According to Ruth's biographer, Jana Bombersbach, the most likely account of the murders is kind of like an amalgamation of Ruth's version of events, but with the inclusion of a few key details that she would later describe in a letter she was going to send to her husband William. Because, remember, she's still married to William.

[Elena]

I forgot about this.

[Ash]

Yeah. In the letter, Ruth claimed that she did stay the night at Ann and Sammy's apartment. And then the next day they were sitting in the living room and an argument broke out. Days before that, Ruth had set Jack up on a date with a woman that she knew through the clinic, but she knew that this woman had syphilis, so she was telling them that. And whether the comment was made jokingly or out of jealousy, Sammy threatened to tell Jack that Ruth had knowingly set him up with a woman who had syphilis. And allegedly, she told her, when I tell them you associate with and introduce them to girls who have syphilis, he won't have anything to do with you.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

So shit got like. This got really messy.

[Elena]

That's the only way you can describe it is just like messy. Messy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, I'm looking at this and I'm like, I would want to be 100 miles away from this situation.

[Ash]

And if that's the truth, how fucked up, like, you can't be doing that. Syphilis is a serious fucking disease.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

Come on.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

And the thing is, if Jack Hollerin had found out about Ruth wanting to set him up with somebody that had Syphilis out of. In like a vengeful spirit, you know?

[Elena]

Well, and not like can. Not telling.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah. That would be non consensual if he didn't know.

[Ash]

And she was like. And definitely she wasn't gonna tell him because this whole thing was like he had her over.

[Elena]

Yeah. So she was like, haha.

[Ash]

So she was like, how about you?

[Elena]

Damn. That is. Feels not proportionate.

[Ash]

Yeah, agreed. But yeah. So if he had found out, he would obviously think pretty poorly of Ruth and their relationship and end things.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which would jeopardize everything that she had hoped for with her future with Jack. So in a moment of anger, Ruth said, sammy, I'll shoot you if you tell that. And in response, Sammy went into the other room, returned with the gun and pointed it in a threatening gesture and reacting without thinking, Ruth grabbed the barrel of the gun and it went off. Bullet grazed Ruth's hand. And then the pain from the bullet wound and the shock from the sound of the gunshot that sent Ruth out of her chair. She knocked Sammy to the ground, grabbed that bread knife and stabbed her in the process. And then she managed to get the gun away from Sammy and quickly killed her two closest friends.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

So this is like another version of the events that may or may not be true.

[Elena]

There's like 16 up until this point.

[Ash]

There's. I think there might even be more. Bombers back believes Ruth had planned to send because that. All of what I just said was those were details laid out in the letter that Ruth was planning to send to William. And Bombersbach believes that Ruth planned to send this letter to her husband in order to explain what had happened, and then she was possibly going to take her own life. But the letter never made it to William and would eventually be used against her in court.

[Elena]

Eek.

[Ash]

Yeah. Bomber's box said she would eventually tell this story many times, all of them after she'd been convicted of murder. But she would always tell this same story. So she told like all these different versions, but then once she was convicted, that last one is the story that she stuck with and it's the one that she penned to her husband, like right after everything happened. So I tend to believe this one. Yeah. Out of all of them I could.

[Elena]

Yeah, that does make sense.

[Ash]

I. I believe it to a degree.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, after shooting both women, and this is where it gets really dark, just so everybody knows, Ruth moved each back into their beds, cleaned up the best she could, and then went to work for the day. Oh, just went to work.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

And later that Afternoon, after she was finished with her shift, she went back to the apartment, Ann and Sammy's apartment, and loaded both bodies into Anne's steamer trunk and had it moved from their apartment to her own, where she dismembered Sammy's body, placing her head, torso, and lower legs into the smaller shipping trunk. And her remaining body parts went into a smaller suitcase and a hat box. Damn. Worried that she would be caught and wanting to distance herself from the crime scene, on the morning of October 18, she booked a ticket to California on the Golden State Limited, which was a railroad that went from Phoenix to la. And she checked the trunks with the baggage handlers at the station.

[Elena]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

So she has two bodies dismembered in multiple trunks and checks her luggage, which contains two dismembered bodies.

[Elena]

She is wily.

[Ash]

Wily.

[Elena]

That is wiley. That's a bold move.

[Ash]

The boldest one might say. So the next day, the Golden State Limited pulled into the station in la, where the baggage handler, HJ Maps, noticed a strong odor and saw, quote, what he believed to be blood leaking from one of these trunks. So he goes and gets his supervisor, Arthur Anderson, and he's like, hey, I think that this is just wild. What he thought was in there. He said, I think this trunk might have some contraband meat in it. I mean, okay, yeah, I don't know a lot about, like, what people were smuggling throughout the country in the 1930s, but I will tell you, I didn't know that there was contraband meat.

[Elena]

I just love that. That is the. That's the first thought.

[Ash]

Yeah. I also feel like that'd be a really good band name.

[Elena]

Contraband.

[Ash]

We are contraband meat.

[Elena]

That is a good band name.

[Ash]

When you yell it, you are right. So Anderson set the luggage aside and was like, oh, you know what? When, like, the owner gets off the train, we'll ask, what the fuck is going on here? But when they found Ruth, she just told them she didn't have the keys, but that she would, quote, phone her husband and have him bring them to the baggage station.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

And they're like, yeah, totally. So you're just traveling with luggage that you don't have the keys to? Like, that's interesting.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

Okay. So they waited, and she used the phone at the baggage counter to make that call, but she claimed she got no response. And she said she'd have to drive downtown to locate her husband. But after slipping away into a crowd, she jumped into a waiting car of her brother. The waiting car of her brother, Burton McKennell. And they just sped off, leaving the bags there.

[Elena]

What the fuck?

[Ash]

So she called her brother and was like, you need to pick me up in la. And he was sitting there waiting for her. And she was able to get away.

[Elena]

Holy shit. And left the bags there.

[Ash]

And left the bag. So concerned about the contents of these trunks and their suspicious as fuck owner, Anderson notified the lapd and they forced the locks open on the trunks, obviously, of course, revealing the horrific contents inside. In addition to the bodies contained within the trunks, detectives also found the women's purses, which allowed them to identify both bodies as Sammy and Annie and Anne. Excuse me.

[Elena]

She just put their ident. Like, just, just putting IDs with them.

[Ash]

Just put their purses. They're like, in case you need with their identification. Wow. I was like, why didn't you just like, I'm glad that you didn't. But you, why don't you just leave their purse?

[Elena]

But like, damn, you really just gave it to them.

[Ash]

Because also that would have made it look like they had like disappeared.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

But I'm, I'm glad you.

[Elena]

But I'm glad she was so thoroughly thinking that. Yikes. Wow.

[Ash]

They also. She put everything in these suitcases. They also found the spent shell casings from the.25 caliber pistol that was used to kill both women in their purses.

[Elena]

She's like, here's their IDs in the murder weapon, essentially.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah, the murder weapon as well.

[Elena]

Oh, the actual murder weapon.

[Ash]

Or like not the murder weapon, but something that was used in the murder. The green handled bread knife that Ruth had stabbed Sammy with was also in the trunks.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

The evidence inside was also covered in bloody fingerprints, which investigators assumed would probably be a match for the trunks owner once she was located.

[Elena]

They were like, you know what? I'm going to go out on a limb and say, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

I'm going to say, as soon as we get her. I feel like these fingerprints. Most importantly though, somebody had managed to write down the license plate number of the car that Ruth had assembled, escaped in, and a day later her brother Burton was found and arrested. But still no Ruthie.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

In an interview with police, Burton insisted he didn't know where the hell his sister was, and he didn't know anything about the bodies and the trunks.

[Elena]

He's like, she called me, man. I just came, I just came.

[Ash]

He's like, I'm just that sucker who has to pick somebody up from the train station.

[Elena]

I'm that guy in the town who says, whose car we take. It's like, I don't know anything about it.

[Ash]

Just.

[Elena]

I'll pick you up.

[Ash]

He said, I don't know why she did it. If she did it, she must have been insane. According to him, Ruth had met him on the college campus shortly after she arrived in California and asked him for a ride. He said, she said she wanted me to pick up her trunks, which she had brought from Phoenix, Arizona, and throw them in the ocean. I asked her why she wanted me to do such a strange thing, but she got angry and said, the less I knew, the better off I'd be.

[Elena]

Baby, that's when you should. I mean, that is a police moment. Like, that's when you're. When you. Somebody tells you, please pick up those trunks and throw them in from. And throw them in the ocean. And when you say, like, why would. Why would I throw your trunks? They say, like, it's probably best that you not know a lot about it.

[Ash]

Don't touch those trunks, dude. Don't touch those trunks.

[Elena]

You gotta. You gotta call someone.

[Ash]

You just wipe your hands in that situation. You walk the other.

[Elena]

You call someone and you say, they said, it's the best. The less I know, the better.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So I'm gonna stay with that, but I'm gonna pass this on to you.

[Ash]

Exactly. Exactly.

[Elena]

Because.

[Ash]

Poor guy, he's like, this is my sister. I don't know what the.

[Elena]

I know that was really hard.

[Ash]

Like, that's a position.

[Elena]

Yeah. I keep forgetting it's her actual brother.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. But still, I mean. But like, I would do a lot of. For you. I'm not throwing in the ocean.

[Elena]

No throwing bodies in the ocean. Yeah.

[Ash]

And I'm. I'm way too conspicuous.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So after the bag of Chandlers at the station started questioning them about the contents of the trunks, Burton said he also became suspicious and insisted that they leave the station. He said, outside in the car, I opened her valise, which I think is a. Is the trunk okay. He said, what I saw nearly made me faint. Nearly drove me. Nearly drove me insane. And he was referring to the portion of Sammy's body that Ruth had put in the suitcase when it didn't fit in the trunk.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

So there was the trunks at the station, and she has her suitcase, but she has her suitcase which has part of Sammy's body.

[Elena]

Part of Sammy's body in the suitcase?

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

My.

[Ash]

Jeez. Yeah. He said, I knew then what was wrong, why she acted so strange. He claimed he drove her downtown and gave her $5 and then dropped her off in the middle of like a very busy LA street. And that was the last time he had seen her. But he said, I hope she gets away. She was forced to do it. I know the poor kid.

[Elena]

Damn, that's some brother. Yeah, like wow.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Well, she wasn't really super careful.

[Ash]

No, she definitely wasn't. But still, I was like, wow, you guys got a lot. But the most significant finding was the letter that Ruth had supposedly written William after the murders, where she disclosed pretty much all the details of the crime, as well as letters written back and forth between Ruth and William. Based on what little they had learned from investigators, most press figured out that there was not only marital trouble between Ruth and her husband, but also they were like, yeah, we're pretty sure she was seeing another guy. The Tucson Citizen, among others, reported that the county attorney from Phoenix, Lloyd Andrews, speculated that, quote, a woman of Mrs. Judd's stature could not have committed the slayings and packed the bodies into the trunk alone, and therefore she must have had an accomplice. So now people are starting to think somebody did this with her.

[Elena]

You'd be surprised.

[Ash]

He continued on, it would be foolish, considering all we have learned to go on the theory Mrs. Judd alone was responsible for these slayings. She's a woman of slight build, and it would have been impossible for her alone to have handled these bodies. There's little doubt a man was involved in the packing of the trunks.

[Elena]

I mean, you'd be surprised what you do in a desperate situation.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Regardless of how big or small you are.

[Ash]

Right, Agreed. So in an attempt to distance his own self from this crime and from the innuendos and rumors appearing in the press that she had some help, William Judd reached out to her husband, reached out to a reporter from the LA Times to comment. He said, I wish the police would exceed to my wishes and permit me and her brother to start in the hunt. I believe that my wife would find me in some way and then we could start to unravel this appalling mystery.

[Elena]

Honestly. Good for William. He's just like, fuck that.

[Ash]

He's like, I have nothing to do with this. And actually, I'd like to help you find her so we can figure out what the fuck happened here. He also refuted reports in the press that his marriage was in trouble or that he and Ruth had been experiencing any discord in their relationship. He said, my wife is the quiet, refined type. There's nothing vicious or criminal in her makeup. And we never quarreled except the usual spats between husband and wife. I'm like, that's not necessarily true. She moved all the way to Phoenix because things were so bad.

[Elena]

Yeah. And I forgot how bad it was.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He didn't know about Jack. It doesn't sound.

[Elena]

Until. Yeah.

[Ash]

Until he did know about.

[Elena]

Until he did know.

[Ash]

But. But they did have issues.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But when it came to whether Ruth had murdered Sammy and Anne, he rejected the theory entirely. He said, I know she's mixed up in it in some way, but she's too frail, too small and too weak to have committed these deeds unaided.

[Elena]

H. She did commit them alone.

[Ash]

Spoiler alert. She did. She never named another accomplice.

[Elena]

Yes. Don't discount just based on how somebody's stature.

[Ash]

Yeah. They never found anything, any evidence to point that it was anybody else other than her. So while the press quickly built a strong case against Ruth and her unnamed accomplice, hundreds of LAPD officers were fanning out across the city and what the LA Times were calling, quote, the greatest police hunt in the history of the West.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which I love.

[Elena]

That was really intense.

[Ash]

Yeah. According to the Times, police searched a small cabin owned by Burton McKennell, where they found, quote, two pieces of cream pie and four sandwiches had been brought there two days earlier, they said, leading them to believe that the location was being used as some kind of hideout. I was like, or the guy just really likes pie. Yeah. And sandwiches.

[Elena]

I mean, I'd be in trouble if that's what they're looking for.

[Ash]

I was literally just going to say, I'd be screwed.

[Elena]

I'm like, you looking for snacks? Because.

[Ash]

Because I got a lot of those. I'm in trouble. But the cabin went under heavy surveillance, and Ruth never returned.

[Elena]

She never came back.

[Ash]

So he might have just been a hungry guy.

[Elena]

He just like cream pies.

[Ash]

Or she might have been there at one point, and he was like, have a pie. But between the time the bodies were discovered at the train station and the day Ruth was arrested, residents of Los Angeles and readers around the country probably were terrified of some maniacal butcher running around on the loose and possibly hunting for more victims. Yeah.

[Elena]

Because you don't know what the. What happened here.

[Ash]

No, exactly. And it's. Remember, this is in the 1930s, so it's really hard for people to think that a woman could do this.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. Even in 1960, what we. When we talked about the Barbara Mackle case.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And Ruth was involved a different Ruth, people were like, no way. She's too pretty and she's a woman.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

So people just couldn't believe it.

[Elena]

Too pretty.

[Ash]

Too pretty. And actually, this Ruth was also pretty. And it played into the case. So after Burton dropped Ruth off Downtown, on the Evening of the 19th, she made her way to the Lavina Sanitarium, which she was previous. She was familiar with from a previous day. To her surprise, nobody stopped or questioned her when she walked in. So she found an unoccupied room and laid down on the bed. Later, she said, I went to bed there, and I remember nothing else for four days.

[Elena]

I love that she was just able to waltz in there and just lay in a bed.

[Ash]

She just. For four days into a hospital and laid in a bed for four days?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like. Like.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Hello.

[Elena]

We were doing okay, I guess.

[Ash]

Yeah, I guess so. On the morning of October 23, she left the sanitarium and placed a call to a doctor that she knew at another area sanitarium, asking if he would be able to mail the letter that she had written to William. But the doctor was like, no, Ruth and I know that they're looking for you. You need to turn yourself in. Yeah, like, I'm not playing any part in this.

[Elena]

Good for that, doctor.

[Ash]

So instead, she walked around the city for a while until she overheard a woman reading an article from the paper. And she heard the woman say her husband wants her to call this number. Like they were talking about.

[Elena]

Wow. This woman.

[Ash]

Yeah. So she found a copy of the newspaper that the woman was reading, and she called the number that William had given to the reporters. She said, immediately, I called that number, and my husband answered in Spanish and told me to meet him at the Biltmore Theater. When they arrived, she found her husband in the company of another man. And she found out that he was the attorney that William had hired to represent her.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

So they both convinced her to turn herself into the police. And together they made arrangements for her to surrender at a nearby funeral parlor.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

I'm not sure what the point of that was.

[Elena]

To make it really intense and theatrical.

[Ash]

I guess so. And it was on the condition that she immediately be submitted for psychiatric evaluation.

[Elena]

Smart.

[Ash]

Yeah. So a little past 6pm LAPD officers arrested Ruth at the Alvarez and Moore funeral home, just a few blocks from the hall of Justice. Whatever condition she had put on her surrender were not honored. And instead of being taken to a local psychiatric hospital, she was taken immediately to an interrogation room, which.

[Elena]

Which makes sense.

[Ash]

Where they were like, what the fuck?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They might not have thought she was insane at the time, but most people were surprised by her appearance when she was taken out of custody. They. Like I said, like, they're picturing, like, this maniacal butcher, like, dangerous psychopath.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But what they found was A very small, frail woman who looked disheveled, confused, and in real bad need of a shower and clean clothes.

[Elena]

I love that they're like. And she stunk.

[Ash]

They were like she was smelly. And she looked like her hair looked a mess, which also it didn't. There's pictures of her surrendering and she looks great.

[Elena]

I was like, well, what. What would anyone think of me on any given day?

[Ash]

I'm not even surrendering. Capture me going to the local coffee shop and I'll look like.

[Elena]

I'll look like I've been on. I've been on the lamb for.

[Ash]

It's the yam.

[Elena]

It's the yam excuse. I've been on the sweet potato for a few days.

[Ash]

Exactly, actually. But in her confession, Ruth told the version of the story where she went to Sam, Sammy and An's home to confront Sammy about, quote, unquote, some nasty things she had said about Anne. And then a conflict escalated and she ended up shooting both of them. And with her face buried in her hand, she just kept repeating, I had to shoot her. I had to shoot her. Like she just kept saying it. When the bodies were discovered at the train station, though, detectives and district attorneys, the. The district attorney's office had assumed that they had a pretty easy case before them as long as they could capture the killer. If even half of what the press was reporting turned out to be true, this murder was motivated by jealousy. And there was a grim evidence found in possession of the killer. Yeah, but the confession threw a wrench into their plans for like this open shut case because Ruth didn't deny killing Sammy and Anne, but she claimed that she had done it in self defense.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's going to be a problem for them.

[Ash]

Yeah. Completely different from first degree murder. And in addition to that, there was scratches on her arms and face. And remember, she had been shot in the hand as well. So the bullet had. It had literally lodged into her hand and it had become gangrenous. Ooh. So that suggested that there may have been some truth to.

[Elena]

That would make me second guess if there's like actual wounds on her.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And she's claiming self defense. How do you get away from that?

[Ash]

And especially back then too, like they.

[Elena]

You know, I mean, that's a pretty good defense.

[Ash]

Pretty good case. So later that evening, detectives got a hold of the letter that Ruth had planned to send to William before tearing it up and leaving it behind in an empty store on the night that she arrived in California. I don't know how they were able to Find it.

[Elena]

Oh, Jesus.

[Ash]

But the letter, which Ruth denied she ever wrote, contained a description of the incident where they fought over Jack, who claimed. Who Ruth claimed knew all about the murders.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Which fueled the accomplice theory. Yep. The letter said, it was horrible packing those things as I did it. I kept saying, I've got to, got to, or I'll be hung. I've got to go. I've got to.

[Elena]

Oof.

[Ash]

In her statement to the press after her arrest, she exclaimed, I am not a fugitive from justice, and I am not a criminal. I did the only thing any decent woman would do. I fought for my life, and I'm fighting for it now because I am very ill. I like to consider myself a decent woman, and I don't think I'd do any of that.

[Elena]

This has got me second guessing because I'm like, I don't know. I. I don't think I'd do that.

[Ash]

Maybe I don't want to call myself a decent woman.

[Elena]

I don't know.

[Ash]

I'm like, you are, in fact, a criminal.

[Elena]

What a thing to say.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

I did what any decent woman would do. We all say, huh?

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

No, no, not me.

[Ash]

I don't.

[Elena]

She doesn't speak for us.

[Ash]

I think you could have done a lot better things.

[Elena]

I just met with the coalition of decent women and they said, they agreed. She does not speak for us.

[Ash]

They said, oh, no. She's always trying to get herself in this club.

[Elena]

Yeah. They said, no, no, no.

[Ash]

We keep saying, no, thanks. Eek. Now, despite her efforts to fight extradition, she was returned to Phoenix on October 30, where nearly 3,000 people were waiting to catch a glimpse of what the press had named the trunk murderess.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Later that day, County Attorney Andrews announced to the press that he intended to bring the case to trial quickly, and he had every intention of pursuing the death penalty. He told the reporters he was willing to try Ruth separately for each murder. And he continued by saying, thus, if she is acquitted on a charge of murdering one of the women, she will then be tried on the other charge.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

So he meant business.

[Elena]

He was like, you're not getting out of this.

[Ash]

Yeah. No. And it turned out that he was true to his word. Not long after she got back to Phoenix, Ruth was indicted for the murders, and a trial date was set for January. In the meantime, the press and the Phoenix police continued digging into Ruth's story, looking into her personal life. They were just determined to figure out which version of the murder was the accurate one. Ruth took some advice from her lawyer, though, and decided to stop speaking to the press and the police since she was arrested. And instead she insisted that she acted alone in the murders and the dismemberment of Sammy and Anne. Now, some of the comments that she made previously, though, only strengthened speculation that she had an accomplice in either one or both of these acts. In late November, she finally sat down with a psychiatrist, Dr. Joseph Catton, and for the first time, she spoke on record about Happy Jack. There, according to Catton, quote, she showed scorn for Jack Halloran, stating that he was acting as do the rest of men. He had forsaken her. He would not raise a finger to help her, even though she may be hanged.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

So she was making it sound like he had helped her in some way, but he was going to let her take the wrap.

[Elena]

Yeah, he was going to let her hang for it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Wow. Years later, it would become clear that since her arrest, she had been covering up for two men, but not for the reasons that most people expected. Knowing that she'd be arrested, she concocted the first story about confronting Sammy over the nasty things that she said about Anne. This was intended to cover up her affair with Jack Hollorin, which she figured would destroy his reputation and devastate her own husband.

[Elena]

Yeah, I wondered if that was the reason for that one.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's why she had lied in her interviews with Dr. Cat. And Ruth explained that there never would have been a case against her if it hadn't been for Jack Halloran, Though she felt that if she hadn't engaged in this affair with Halloran, that there would never have been an argument with her friends and nobody would have ever ended up dead.

[Elena]

Wow. That's so fucked up.

[Ash]

So that was the role he played. He didn't help her, it was just that.

[Elena]

Because of the affair.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

They got in this fight and if it was never happened in the first place, they wouldn't be fighting over this thing and it never would have escalated.

[Ash]

Exactly. It all came down to jealousy and, like really cattiness.

[Elena]

So it's like he didn't do anything except for have an affair with this.

[Ash]

Yeah, he was just like a shitty dude. Yeah, you know. This revelation didn't change the outcome for Sammy and Ann, though, but it did offer some explanations as to why her story had changed several times, depending on who she was talking to. If Ruth believed that Jack had abandoned her in November, though, she had completely changed her opinion. By mid January, just before her trial was about to begin, she told Dr. Kon Jack Hollerin still loves me and always has.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

She was completely certain that he was going to come through with her. In his defense.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

Or in her defense. Excuse me. When Katn asked why she had such a big change of heart, she said, he has sent word to me in jail here that he still loves me and that makes things different. He would come up to see me if he could, but you know as well as I do he can't do that because there's a warrant out for his arrest.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

It was clear to Dr. Catton that Ruth had fallen for whatever Jack Halloran had told her.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

There was no warrant out for his arrest.

[Elena]

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Ash]

And whatever he told her was probably just an excuse to keep distance between himself and her man. Yeah. But on the verge of trial, she remained committed to the idea that should things not go in her favor, Jack would come to her rescue. He would offer some kind of testimony that would explain everything, and she would be acquitted, which is really sad.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's. That's some serious dulu.

[Ash]

That's the thing. Like, yeah, I don't think she's criminally insane, but I definitely think she's a very mentally ill.

[Elena]

There's something off here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That kind of delusion is. You can understand it to a point, but then it comes to, like, there's more here.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I don't know what it is, but there's more here.

[Ash]

It feels like that's the thing. Exactly. So the trial began on January 21, 1932, in Phoenix, Arizona. In his opening statement, Lloyd Andrews laid out the state's case for the jury. According to him, Ruth's jealousy and fears over losing her lover, Jack and her husband had motivated her to murder the only two people who knew the truth about her relationship with Jack hollering or at the very least suspected it. On the night of the murder, she got to her friend's home around 10:30 after the two had gone to sleep. She snuck into the room, and after quickly entering the bedroom, she pressed the revolver to Anne's head and pulled the trigger, killing her immediately. The sound of the gunshot, they said, woke Sammy, who threw up a hand, either in protest or protection, which explained how she got that gunshot wound through her hand. And then after shooting her in the hand, she, Ruth, pointed the gun at her head and killed her instantly.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Our Andrews argued that this was supported by the statements taken from the girl's neighbors, who recalled hearing gunshots right around 10:30pm but when they looked out the Window. Sammy and Anne's home seemed like it was dark and quiet, so they didn't really think anything.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And it was also supported by the so called drain letter, where Ruth confessed the murder to her husband with just slightly different details. While the accuracy of the details were in question, a handwriting analysis did confirm that the handwriting matched Ruth and she had written the letter. Now, among the first witnesses called by the prosecution was Dr. Katton, who was there to testify on Ruth's sanity, or lack thereof. However, before he even reached the witness stand, Ruth started shouting at him and demanding that he leave the room.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

She screamed, get out of here. I won't have you near me. Seemingly angry that Dr. Caton had made statements about her to the prosecutor in the press, she jumped out of her chair and continued on saying, you talked about me. I won't have it. You stay away from me. In the middle of her trial. In the middle of her trial, which again, I feel like there's something there because it didn't seem like she was acting like, like this is over the top behavior, but it didn't seem like it was like a farce, you know.

[Elena]

Like it was actually, like genuinely happening.

[Ash]

Yeah. So. And that's the thing, because Dr. Catton was like, startled by her outburst.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So he left the room to collect himself and he came back a short time later through a different entrance. This time smart. Eventually, he did provide testimony on behalf of the prosecution, and he told the court that in his opinion, she was sane.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which is wild. Her emotional outburst was exactly the type of courtroom antics that so many spectators. Spectators had hoped to see and expect.

[Elena]

What everyone showed up for exactly.

[Ash]

Spark something uncommon this holiday with just the right gift from Uncommon Goods. The busy holiday season is here, and Uncommon Goods makes it way less stressful. With incredible handpicked gifts for everyone on your list, all in one spot. Gifts that spark, joy, wonder, delight. And that. It's exactly what I wanted. Feeling. They scour the globe for original, handmade, absolutely remarkable things. Somehow they know exactly the perfect gift for every single person. You know, last year I was really struggling with what to get John for Christmas, Elena's husband. And I said, what's something that would be meaningful to him? And I know he loves sports and I know he loves hanging out with the girls. So I got him this home team baseball game so that he could, you know, have fun playing this game, but also teach the girls about baseball. And I just thought that was very thoughtful. And I don't think I would have found it anywhere else. But Uncommon Goods. When you shop at Uncommon Goods, you're supporting artists and small independent businesses. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com morbid. That's UncommonGoods.com morbid for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods. We're all out of the ordinary. But more than that, everyone was very, very eager to hear from Jack Halloran.

[Elena]

Oh, I would be.

[Ash]

He had been subpoenaed, so. And people knew that they were ready. They wanted to hear what this man had to say.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So he was waiting in the antechamber, waiting to be called. And he, and likely everyone else was surprised. His name was never called in court that day or any other.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

When asked why he never called Halloran to testify, Andrew said, I guess I must have overlooked him. He's my witness. I'll admit that.

[Elena]

I'm. What?

[Ash]

He just never called.

[Elena]

He's like a star witness. And he's like, oh, shit, he's a star witness. I love that. He's like, I will admit he is my witness. He's my witness. Thank you for admitting that. Like, I don't know if you should admit that.

[Ash]

Yikes.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

I must have overlooked him. Yeah, he overlooked him. The truth was, though, that Jack really didn't have anything to offer the prosecution, and his presence in the courtroom really would have only added to the chaos.

[Elena]

And that is very true. And I was thinking that, like, I'm shocked that, like, he's using the. I must have overlooked him and not just said, like, he would have caused a.

[Ash]

A scene.

[Elena]

A scene. And we just didn't need any more scenes in that courtroom.

[Ash]

I think that's way more the answer. And I think he just maybe didn't want to. I honestly, now that I'm thinking about it, I feel like the prosecutor didn't want to say that because if he says he's trying to avoid a scene, it makes it seem like he is doubtful that she's saying, like, he has.

[Elena]

Something to say that could blow him up, you know?

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

And I almost wonder, like, because we don't have, like, actual, you know, audio of him doing it, I wonder now that I'm looking at it, if he was just like, yeah, crazy. Must. Overlooked him.

[Ash]

Just like, shrugging his shoulders.

[Elena]

He's my witness. I'll admit to that. Like, just kind of like that. Like, wink, wink, nudge, nudge, tongue in cheek kind of thing. I bet that's what it was more than anything.

[Ash]

I think so.

[Elena]

That makes More sense.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's the thing. They, like, there was really no point in calling him because really, the state's case against Ruth Judd wasn't just backed up by the evidence they collected. It was also supported by her multiple, multiple, multiple confessions. Regardless how one varied from the other, she always killed the women.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And that fact was not lost on Ruth Judd, who saw how things were going and was definitely starting to worry that she was going to be found guilty and sentenced to hang. On January 26, just a few days into the trial, during a recess, she broke away from the jail matron's guard and fled into the hall trying to make an escape. And she called out to her brother as she was running by. Get my lawyer. Sheriff McFadden is telling the witnesses what to say. Just, like, running by.

[Elena]

She's just like, hey, get my dry cleaning and call my lawyers. Like, she's just like, throwing out to do list to be.

[Ash]

She's like, the sheriff is trying to me over. I gotta get out of here.

[Elena]

This.

[Ash]

It doesn't sound real.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

She was quickly captured because they're literally in a courthouse.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And she was returned to the courtroom, where trial resumed after a very short break. Wow. And this was just a small disruption in the grand scheme of things, which is wild, that, like, the person on trial trying to escape was a small little bump. They're like, oh, sorry about that. There also weren't really any immediate consequences.

[Elena]

Like, yeah, we were just like, sit down.

[Ash]

Pretty much. Yeah. But it was part of an emerging pattern of very highly emotional and very disruptive behavior from Ruth that would continue well beyond the trial to that point. Ruth's mother testified that her daughter was, quote, a woman under mental strain who struck one. Best friends turned on her.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So she's like.

[Elena]

I mean, that happens sometimes.

[Ash]

We've all had that happen. Right.

[Elena]

And, like, that's not an important. It's not a proportionate response.

[Ash]

Yeah. I lost a whole friend group. I never. I never lost it. Like, cuckoo nuts.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. You know, I had a best friend turn on me in, like, middle school.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

You know, junior high.

[Ash]

You don't. You don't do this about it.

[Elena]

You don't do this about it. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

I mean, nice that her mom came to her defense, but, I mean.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's your mom.

[Ash]

I think I would have kept quiet on that one. I'm not a mom, though, so I don't know.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When it came time for the defense, her attorney, Paul Schenk, invoked the irresistible impulse doctrine.

[Elena]

What a doctrine he argued that while.

[Ash]

She may have confessed to the crime, Ruth was not sane at the time and thus unaware of the consequences of her actions.

[Elena]

An irresistible impulse doctrine. Sounds spicy.

[Ash]

It does.

[Elena]

You know.

[Ash]

Yeah. Another good band name, Irresistible Impulse.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And even add doctrine onto it. It would be a really cool, like, emo band.

[Ash]

I like that.

[Elena]

Like, pop punk, emo band.

[Ash]

If you're talented, do that.

[Elena]

Do it.

[Ash]

I like that. But unfortunately, the testimony from Dr. Caton and another state psychiatrist, Dr. Paul Bowers, refuted Shank's claim.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to Bowers, quote, regardless of testified delusions and hallucinations and a strain and a strain of insanity in her ancestry, it was his opinion that Ruth was, in fact, quite sane. He said, I think she was trying to fool me. She did not display any demented actions. And he went on to explain that rather than show no awareness of the consequences, Ruth had actually gone out of her way not only to conceal her crimes, but to conceal her affair from her husband.

[Elena]

That's the part that really. That's why she did me with the sanity. Thing is, she had so much, like, a forethought here. Like, she had so much, like she wanted to cover up several things.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

She. Part of this was the affair, and covering it up like that shows that she's thinking of the future and rationally.

[Ash]

Exactly. When Shank asked whether the dismemberment of another human being was not a sign of psychosis, Bowers replied, quote, that was exactly the best thing for her to do if she wanted to get away with it.

[Elena]

That's the thing. I feel like we're. We're very, like, conditioned to immediately assume, like, well, if you dismember someone, you.

[Ash]

Have to be psychotic, which is a normal reaction.

[Elena]

Very normal reaction, because you're like, that's psychotic. I can't put my brain there. Like, who would do that? But a sane person who is choosing to get rid of a problem will.

[Ash]

Do unthinkable things, will do anything just.

[Elena]

To get away from all things. And it's not psychotic. It's just unthinkable. Yeah, that's the thing. It's just. That's where you have to put your brain. It's just unthinkable.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

It's good. You can't put your brain there.

[Ash]

That's the best way to say it.

[Elena]

Doesn'T mean it's psychotic.

[Ash]

That's the best way to say it. On February 7, both sides rested and they gave their closing arguments, with Andrews reminding the jury of the complete wealth of Evidence they had against Ruth and making yet another push for the death penalty. Paul Shank, on the other hand, spent his six hour closing.

[Elena]

I don't understand those you're gonna lose statements because you talk at me for six hours and I'm gonna say you lose just based on principle. How do you even talk at me for six hours?

[Ash]

How does one do that?

[Elena]

No, you don't.

[Ash]

To lecture for six hours is impressive.

[Elena]

But no, also, that's not cruel and unusual.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Elena]

The people who have to sit there and listen.

[Ash]

Yeah. But he spent his six hour closing sarcastically attempting to undermine the critical testimony of the psychiatrists. And he heavily implied that even if she was lying to either of the state psychiatrists, that was a symptom of mental illness in and of itself, which ultimately supported their case of insanity, sanity.

[Elena]

No, it didn't. If she was lying to the psychiatrist, that shows that she, even more so. Is trying to get out of everything.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

It would show more for her sanity.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

Like, I'm sorry, did you run this by anyone first?

[Ash]

Let me think. So no one near you.

[Elena]

Be like, that's actually not at all what that means. Like, you're gonna sound dumb.

[Ash]

When I was reading this, I said to myself, paul Schenck doesn't have a Raymond.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Like Rusty had a Raymond.

[Elena]

That's true. You need a Raymond. You need a Raymond. Presumed innocent. It's a great show.

[Ash]

You guys got to watch it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But in closing, he, quote, begged that she be not sent to the gallows or to a felon cell, but treated as a sick woman and committed to an asylum before retiring for deliberation, Judge Howard Speakman instructed the jury of their opinion to. Or sorry, their option to return one of six verdicts they could do.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Guilty of too many options. It's a lot, I know. Guilty of first degree murder with death penalty. Guilty of first degree murder with life imprisonment. Guilty of second degree murder, manslaughter. Not guilty or not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

So the jury deliberated for nearly two days before finally finding Ruth Judd guilty of first degree murder.

[Elena]

I didn't do it.

[Ash]

Which. So I'm not sure I understand that correctly because first degree murder. Aren't you supposed to be, like, she snapped in the moment? So that's not premeditated. And don't you have to have premeditation for first degree murder?

[Elena]

That is interesting, because I would more think of this as second degree murder. Me too, because it seems like it was in the. I would 100 convict of Sec. 2nd degree murder.

[Ash]

Me too. I would have. I think I would have trouble with first degree because I don't think this was planned. She didn't go there with a gun. The gun was there.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She didn't go there with the trunks. She went to work and had to get the trunks. You know what I mean?

[Elena]

Yeah. I wonder if it has to do. And I'm not sure if that's what it is. If it has to do with all.

[Ash]

The steps afterwards, like the COVID up and everything, because that's like.

[Elena]

And going to work while they're just like laying in their beds.

[Ash]

Yeah. That makes.

[Elena]

I feel like that maybe all that played into it a little bit. But I agree that I would more likely thought I was going to see a second degree murder.

[Ash]

That's what I thought, too. I'm glad you felt the same because I was like, am I just not understanding this right? Somebody who understands it better let us know.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But when the verdict was read, Ruth showed no emotion. She gave no response. She simply bandaged and unbandaged her left hand obsessively while she listened to the jury foreman speak. Yeah. So on February 24, she was back in court for her formal sentencing. Her lawyer's motions for a new trial had all been denied. And when she asked. Well, when she was asked whether she had anything to say for herself, she attempted to tell a, quote, rambling story and to charge an insufficiency in the states proof. But she was ultimately overruled by Judge Speakman. And in response, she shouted, those women were not murdered. And then stood defiantly behind the. The defense table as the judge read her death sentence out loud for the court, setting an execution date for May 11, 1932. Those women were not murdered.

[Elena]

Like, come on.

[Ash]

Yes, they were.

[Elena]

Also, there might be some states where that was not required premeditation for murder. And I was just looking at it up.

[Ash]

The fact that it was, what, 19?

[Elena]

Yeah, it was 31.

[Ash]

32.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Elena]

So I think things have since changed.

[Ash]

Oh, okay. Thank you for looking that up.

[Elena]

No problem.

[Ash]

But Ruth's execution date was put on hold pending an appeal to the Supreme Court of Arizona. But after hearing her case, they upheld the lower court's ruling. They said the evidence, particularly the letter she had written to William, quote, conclusively refutes any argument of insanity.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Despite their decision, she was deemed mentally ill just 72 hours before her execution date and was moved from the prison, from the prison that she was staying in, to the Arizona State Hospital for the Insane, where she remained Quote, under sentence to be hanged if she ever recovered her sanity. In the 12 years that followed, she was there 12 years. She escaped a total of six times. Holy. In one attempt, it is believed that she had outside help. But every time she managed to escape, she was recaptured and returned to the hospital.

[Elena]

Six times.

[Ash]

Every single time.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

After 20 years in the state hospital, she petitioned the state Board of Pardons and Paroles to have her sentenced commuted to life in prison. And on May 5, 1952, her commutation was approved with the provision that if she was ever deemed sane, she'd be moved to the state prison in Florence.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

In 1962, she made her seventh holy and arguably most successful escape from the hospital. This time she traveled to California, where she found work as a domestic worker.

[Elena]

What?

[Ash]

And stayed out for seven years.

[Elena]

Stop.

[Ash]

Before being recaptured in 1969.

[Elena]

She just went out there and found a job.

[Ash]

She. In California. Wow. Like, hello. What?

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So nearly. So they found her, they put her back in jail, in prison. And then nearly 20 years after her commutation, she was granted parole in late 1969, assuring the state parole board that she would, quote, live as quietly as I can. Upon her release, she returned to the home of Dr. John Blumer and his wife, who she had been living with after, like during that last escape.

[Elena]

Geez.

[Ash]

Dr. Blumer died in 1982 and she sued his wife for $408 million, claiming that she'd never been paid any wages for her work while she was there and had essentially been kept as an indentured servant for 11 years. The court agreed with her and she was awarded a $225,500 cash settlement from the doctor's estate, I am speechless. Yep. This woman, she is something.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

After that lawsuit, which I was in 1982, if I didn't say. She faded into obscurity, lived out the rest of her life in Phoenix, Arizona. And October 23, 1998, Winnie Ruth Judd died from natural causes at the age of 93 years old. 1998, 1998. And while she spent most of her life associated with one of the most notorious cases.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Completely shrouded in mystery and controversy, many people still believe the jury and American people were biased by all the sensational coverage of the story. According to attorney Larry Debus, who represented ruth in the 1960s, he said if the body hadn't been cut up, this would have been just another homicide and nobody ever would have heard of Winnie Ruth Judd, which I disagree with. But.

[Elena]

But all. But also the Bodies were cut up.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

So. So like, that's a nice thought.

[Ash]

But they were.

[Elena]

That if they weren't. But like.

[Ash]

But they were.

[Elena]

She did dismember a body.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

So.

[Ash]

And even.

[Elena]

Still fun to talk about that. Like if she didn't. But she did.

[Ash]

If she shot two of her friends and then went to trial. I feel like it still would.

[Elena]

I don't think it would have been as sensational.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

Because the.

[Ash]

It is the trunk of it.

[Elena]

I mean, that. What a weird thing to posture. Like, it's just like if she didn't dismember this person, nobody would know about her. And it's like. Correct.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

What else do you have?

[Ash]

Like, it's just like Captain Obvious. Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, it's like what?

[Ash]

Yeah, like, yeah, Larry Debus there. I don't know.

[Elena]

That's like if somebody gets in a car accident, you're like, if this car did not exist, you wouldn't. You wouldn't have been in this accident. It's like.

[Ash]

Yep, thank you.

[Elena]

But it does. And I did. So like, I don't understand how that helps anybody.

[Ash]

It was a weird statement to me. I'm not saying anything. Yeah. It's not.

[Elena]

If Jeffrey Dahmer did not kill people, he would not know who he was. Yep. Correct.

[Ash]

True, true.

[Elena]

So much for pointing that out. Because he did. So that's why. What? That's just so weird.

[Ash]

It's a hot take. What a hot take.

[Elena]

The hottest take.

[Ash]

But absolutely wild. That she won. Escaped seven times. And one time.

[Elena]

Seven times.

[Ash]

Was out for seven years. And then when she did get out, she just went and worked for this family and then sued who wasn't paying her, I guess.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because like there was proof that.

[Elena]

Yeah. They were not.

[Ash]

And then she got the money and the fact that she lived until 1998. Like I was alive when she died.

[Elena]

She was old.

[Ash]

Yeah. She 93.

[Elena]

Yeah. She lived to be old.

[Ash]

Which is not really.

[Elena]

I know there's some people who die much younger and it's like. And they. I mean, didn't dismember their friends and shove them into a trunk.

[Ash]

Like the people that you killed didn't really get to live that long.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

Cuz you killed them.

[Elena]

Holy Winnie Ruth.

[Ash]

Kind of saying like what that guy said. They didn't get to live that long.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like.

[Ash]

Cuz you killed them.

[Elena]

Correct.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

So.

[Ash]

Yeah. What a case.

[Elena]

Damn. The trunk murderous.

[Ash]

The trunk murderess.

[Elena]

What a case.

[Ash]

We hope you keep listening and we.

[Elena]

Hope you keep it.

[Ash]

We're not so weird that you have an affair on your husband with a guy named Happy Jack, then Hanky is the name and Pinky is the game and then kill your friends and dismember them. I don't ever think you should keep it that weird. Thanks was the name and Pinky was the game.

[Elena]

SA.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Marcia Clark]

Hotshot Australian Attorney Nicola Gaba was born into legal royalty, her specialty representing some of the city's most infamous gangland criminals. However, while Nicola held the underworld's darkest secrets, the most dangerous secret was her own.

[Ash]

She's going to all the major groups within Melbourne's underworld, and she's informing on them all.

[Marcia Clark]

I'm Marcia Clark, host of the new podcast Informants Lawyer X. In my long career in criminal justice as a prosecutor and defense attorney, I've seen some crazy cases, and this one belongs right at the top of the list.

[Elena]

She was addicted to the game she had created. She just didn't know how to stop.

[Marcia Clark]

Now, through dramatic interviews and access, I'll reveal the truth behind one of the world's most shocking legal scandals. Listen to Informants Lawyer X exclusively on Wondry. Join Wondry in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify and listen to more. Exhibit C True Crime shows early and ad free right now.