Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)

Summary

Morbid Podcast Summary: Episode 642 - Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)

Introduction

In Episode 642 of Morbid, titled "Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2)," hosts Ash and Dave delve deeper into the chilling case of Rodney Alcala, a notorious serial killer whose heinous crimes and manipulative charm allowed him to evade justice for years. This installment continues the exploration of Alcala's disturbing history, his manipulative appearance on a popular television show, and the glaring failures of the legal system that enabled his continued spree of violence.

Recap of Part One

The episode begins with a brief recap of Part One, where Ash and Dave introduced Rodney Alcala's early life, his initial violent assaults, and his infamous appearance on the television show The Dating Game. Alcala's capture in New Hampshire while posing as John Berger, an employee at a children's summer camp, marked a significant moment in Steve Hodel's relentless pursuit of the killer.

Legal System Failures and Minimal Sentencing

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the legal system's mishandling of Alcala's case. Despite the severity of his crimes, including the brutal attack on 8-year-old Tali Shapiro, Alcala faced minimal consequences:

• Attempted Murder Charge and Sentencing: Alcala was charged with attempted murder but was only sentenced to 34 months in prison. This lenient sentencing stemmed from crucial witnesses, like Tali's family, unwilling to testify due to the trauma it would inflict on the child ([12:13] Ash).

• Parole Board's Decision: While serving his sentence, a prison psychologist declared Alcala "considerably improved," leading to his parole in 1974 ([13:00] Dave). This decision was catastrophic, as Alcala resumed his killing spree shortly after his release.

• Second Parole and Subsequent Crimes: Alcala's second parole in 1977, granted after merely two visits with his parole officer, resulted in further murders, including that of 23-year-old Ellen Hover and 18-year-old Jill Barkham. The parole board's oversight and the lack of stringent monitoring allowed Alcala to continue his atrocities unabated ([25:02] Ash).

Rodney Alcala's Manipulative Charm on "The Dating Game"

One of the most unnerving aspects of Alcala's profile is his participation in The Dating Game, a popular 1970s television show:

• Alcala's Appearance: On the show, Alcala presented himself as a charming, adventurous photographer with interests in skydiving and motorcycling. His responses were calculated to endear him to the contestant, Cheryl Bradshaw, and the audience ([47:58] Ash).

• Cheryl Bradshaw's Intuition: Despite his smooth demeanor, Cheryl felt an immediate unease upon meeting Alcala in person. She sensed something deeply unsettling about him, which led her to decline the date. Her intuition proved life-saving, as she later avoided becoming a victim ([49:11] Ash, [55:46] Dave).

• Public Perception vs. Reality: The audience and other contestants were initially charmed by Alcala, unaware of his dark tendencies. His ability to mask his true nature allowed him to continue manipulating and selecting victims ([56:40] Ash).

Alcala's Continued Crimes and Escalation of Violence

After his release, Alcala's actions became increasingly violent and brazen:

• Murder of Charlotte Lamb: In June 1978, Alcala murdered 31-year-old Charlotte Lamb in Riverside, California. The brutality of the crime scene, with extensive lacerations and signs of strangulation, underscored Alcala's escalating violence ([45:15] Ash).

• Murder of Georgia Marie Wixted: Just days after being released from a petty drug charge, Alcala brutally attacked 27-year-old nurse Georgia Marie Wixted. The scene was particularly gruesome, with signs of severe trauma and evidence pointing towards Alcala's involvement. Despite carrying critical evidence, including a partial palm print, Alcala remained elusive until further DNA advancements ([40:58] Ash).

• Murder of Monique Hoyt: In February 1979, Alcala targeted 15-year-old Monique Hoyt on her way to school. Through manipulation and physical assault, he attempted to coerce her into participating in illicit activities. Monique's quick thinking and survival instincts led her to escape, ultimately resulting in Alcala's arrest ([60:31] Ash).

Notable Quotes

• Ash on Legal Failures: "He was gonna plead to that in exchange for an indeterminate sentence of anywhere from one year to life in prison. So this could go so many ways." ([12:32] Ash)

• Dave on Parole Decisions: "Well, they should be ashamed of themselves." ([13:30] Dave)

• Ash Reflecting on the Case: "It's a huge failure of the legal system, allowing someone like Rodney Alcala to continue hurting people." ([24:35] Ash)

• Dave on Victim Blame: "Even if the girl is lying and she snuck out with an older man to do this, why is this older? That's the older man's fault." ([23:29] Ash and Dave)

• Ash on Alcala’s Personality: "He is a fucking monster to children. Everybody would have if not for a good Samaritan, literally would have. She'd be gone." ([13:14] Ash)

Emotional Impact and Coping Mechanisms

Throughout the episode, Ash and Dave share their emotional responses to the gruesome details of Alcala's crimes:

• Ash's Struggles: Ash admits to having nightmares and difficulty sleeping due to the disturbing nature of Alcala's case. He discusses strategies recommended by his therapist, such as acknowledging intrusive thoughts and redirecting focus, to cope with the psychological toll ([02:36] - [07:55]).

• Dave's Supportive Insights: Dave shares his methods for managing intrusive disturbing thoughts, including visualizing erasing unwanted images from a dry erase board or computer trash, which not only helps him but also his children who experience nightmares ([04:17] - [07:22]).

Conclusion and Tease for Part Three

The episode concludes with Alcala's arrest following Monique Hoyt's courageous escape. Despite mounting evidence, systemic failures continued to allow Alcala temporary freedom, highlighting the need for systemic reforms to prevent such tragedies. Ash and Dave emphasize the importance of justice and the enduring impact on the victims and their families. They hint at more harrowing details to be covered in Part Three, promising listeners a continuation of Alcala's disturbing narrative and the ultimate pursuit of justice.

Final Thoughts

Episode 642 of Morbid underscores the terrifying reality of Rodney Alcala's manipulative nature and the profound shortcomings of the legal system in handling such a dangerous individual. Through detailed recounting and emotional reflections, Ash and Dave offer listeners a comprehensive understanding of Alcala's reign of terror and the critical need for vigilance and systemic change to protect potential victims.

---

Note: This summary is based on the provided transcript of Episode 642: Rodney Alcala: The Dating Game Killer (Part 2) from the Morbid podcast by the Morbid Network | Wondery.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. Before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery? It's like a secret passage to an ad free lair. With early access to episodes, you can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Dave]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is Morbid, brought to you by allergies.

[Dave]

Yeah. What the.

[Ash]

It's like winter. I didn't know that allergies existed in the winter. Yeah, it's not even like winter. It is winter.

[Dave]

It's. It's like winter, and it literally is. Yeah, I don't have a cold anymore, but I have. I woke up with the worst allergies. Like, and it's not a cold.

[Ash]

Yeah, no, she's fauceting. Like, the face is fauceting.

[Dave]

Yeah, it just is, like, very infuriating.

[Ash]

I feel like you're making me think that I am sniffly, but I don't even know if I am, but I'm now. Like, it's a weird placebo that's going on.

[Dave]

Yeah. You're, like, feeling sympathy sniffles.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. I have sympathy sniffles. I'm such an empath.

[Dave]

You really are. You're such an empath. And. Yeah, so I'm not sick, but I might sound a little congested just because you do, but not allergies. Yeah. Guys.

[Ash]

Lilo not full blown. Lilo is here.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But like her distant relatives.

[Dave]

Yeah, her cousin is here.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Dave]

But I'm not the one that's going to be talking much, so that's good.

[Ash]

I'm going to be talking a lot because we are on part two of Rodney Alcala, who is this case. Such a shit stain. I just have to say at the top of this, I have been having the worst time falling asleep just because of this case.

[Dave]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

The details are just running through my brain at night and I need to figure out a way to cope with that.

[Dave]

Yeah, it's.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

This case for you is probably like the Moore's murderers were for me where I was like invading, like a lot of times it invades my dreams. But like that invaded my dreams in a way that I can't describe.

[Ash]

No, that's the thing. And I don't usually do the more brutal cases like you do. And it's different because I'm not like fully submersed in putting them together and then presenting them. This one, obviously Dave helped like immensely putting most of this together. I don't even know how Dave is sleeping at night. But then like I was like, you know, twisting like things around, like moving them around. I'm like, oh, God.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Jesus Christ.

[Dave]

Oh, it's awful.

[Ash]

Yeah. But I do this thing where I had this therapist and she told me instead of focusing on. Because like, I will. If I have like a thought that I don't want to have, I'm like, no, no, like, don't think about that. Don't think about that. Don't think about that. But that just makes it worse because it's like telling a toddler not to do something. It just makes them want to do it more. Yeah. And I think your brain is essentially a toddler. So I recog. Recognize, I say, I recognize that I'm having that thought and now I'm going to move on to something else.

[Dave]

There you go.

[Ash]

And it does help a little.

[Dave]

It does help.

[Ash]

Yeah. So see, I think can also help anybody else out there.

[Dave]

I think I've told everybody about my method. I don't know if you have to have like a divergent brain for it to work.

[Ash]

Maybe you absolutely do.

[Dave]

But it literally works for me.

[Ash]

I'm not diverse enough.

[Dave]

Yeah, you're not divergent enough. But.

[Ash]

Yeah, but yours is cool. So. And it could work for the, you know, the non neurotypical.

[Dave]

Yeah. If you feel it out there, it's. If you picture whatever you're picturing in your head, it's usually a visual that will really get me. My brain will make a visual or I'll see a visual during research that just really fucks me up. And right now I just got. Whoops, it's there. I'm thinking about the Moore's Murders, and a certain visual is coming into my brain. So right now I'm looking at it, and in my brain, I have one of those little dry erase board. Erasers.

[Ash]

Yes, erasers.

[Dave]

And I'm erasing it, and it's gone. And if it pops back up, then I say, oop, now we're on a computer. Throw it in the trash. I don't have a backup, so I can't see it again.

[Ash]

You are.

[Dave]

I actually told the girls to do that, and that helped my kids. They were having, like, a.

[Ash]

Like, nightmares.

[Dave]

It was just one night where they had watched something, I think, and we didn't think it was gonna be anything that would bother them, but you just never know what's gonna stick with a kid. And I think it was like, I can't remember, actually, but they were like, oh, that. Like this one scene in this movie or TV show, like, where there was like a wolf or something. They were like, what if there's a wolf in the woods? And I was like, what are you seeing in your head? And they just told me, and I was like, okay. And I was like, you know on how on a computer you can erase something by putting it in the trash? And they were like, yeah. I was like, put the image in the trash.

[Ash]

Maybe I'll try that.

[Dave]

And then I was like, did you guys make a backup? Did you save another version of that image? And they were like, what? I was like, did you save another.

[Ash]

Version of that image? And they were like, no.

[Dave]

I was like, then you can't see it again because you trashed it.

[Ash]

That's. Yeah, that's.

[Dave]

And one of my kids especially was like, that worked.

[Ash]

I love that. Your brain just always stands on business.

[Dave]

Yeah, 100%.

[Ash]

You're not a big admin girly, but maybe that's why. Maybe you're doing so much admin in your brain.

[Dave]

I am. I'm putting. Doing treatment in my brain. So, yeah, if you don't have a backup of it, can't get it back.

[Ash]

Oh, I have a backup of every horrible memory that I've ever had.

[Dave]

Keep throwing it in the trash.

[Ash]

I'll try.

[Dave]

And then you empty the trash.

[Ash]

Where does it go?

[Dave]

You hit that little button that says empty trash, and then you say, fuck, I can't get that back.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Dave]

You know?

[Ash]

Yeah. You're.

[Dave]

How terrifying that is when you. When you do that with something you need. Like, you're like, oh, shit, I accidentally, like forever deleted that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

That's what you do with those bad images. Because then you have that moment of like, oh, it's gone. And you're like, well, that's gone.

[Ash]

I think. I also think you worked a lot of office jobs.

[Dave]

I did, yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. And I never worked. And research, like research jobs. Yeah. Your brain is that. I feel like that's very, very. Right. Brained of you.

[Dave]

Yeah. Right. Would that be. Yeah, I think you just kind of. It helps.

[Ash]

Yeah, it really does.

[Dave]

Because it's so, like, it's so clinical.

[Ash]

Clinical. Yeah, exactly.

[Dave]

That it's an easy way to do it. If you can get your brain in that place to like visualize.

[Ash]

I'm gonna have to try the trash one because I haven't tried it.

[Dave]

It takes a minute to like visualize that. But once you're able to visualize that, it is very helpful.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

So anybody out there, if you're having things that pop into your brain that, you know, whatever it may be.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

I'm not saying it will help you. I'm just saying if you can get yourself in that mindset that you can see that like putting it into a trash or wiping it with a dry erase, eraser, go for it, then it can be helpful. Yeah.

[Ash]

Or recognize that you're having the thought.

[Elena]

Let yourself have the thought and also let it pass.

[Ash]

We've given you so many ways to get rid of your yucky thoughts.

[Dave]

Yeah. See, yours is like. Yours is very harrowing to me. Like, that's harrowing.

[Ash]

That's therapy, babe.

[Dave]

Harrowing. Like, let yourself have the thought. No, thank you. Like, that's.

[Ash]

That's where I.

[Dave]

No, let yourself have the thought.

[Ash]

No, see, for someone like me, if you don't let yourself have the thought, it's just going to try harder to. To get into the thought and see.

[Dave]

That'S where mine goes. No, don't let yourself have the thought. Throw it in the trash.

[Ash]

Yeah, no, I. I gotta let myself. It's also like weird exposure therapy, I think. I don't know.

[Dave]

I love it.

[Ash]

Well, that's our brains for you. They're fucking weird. But here we are. You like us if you're listening. Most of the time. So sometimes. Yeah, most of you. Most of you. So let's get back into it. We're on part two of Rodney Alcala. In part one, we kind of started in the middle, talking about Rodney's appearance on the popular show the Dating Game and how he was immediately off putting to female contestant Cheryl Bradshaw. We went over Rodney's early life. How he was abruptly discharged from the military after, I guess you could say some sort of psychotic break. It seems we went over his first attacks on many women. And of course, at the end, his capture in New New Hampshire while he was working at a children's summer camp under the name of John Berger.

[Dave]

John Berger.

[Ash]

John Berger. Isn't that Sex in the City isn't his name.

[Dave]

His last name is Burger and they call him Burger.

[Ash]

I think his first name is John.

[Dave]

Is it John now? I need to look.

[Ash]

You gotta look it up really quick.

[Dave]

Jack Burger.

[Ash]

Oh, Jack. Which probably is John.

[Dave]

Strangely, Jack is a nickname for John. Even though.

[Ash]

Even though they're the same amount of letters. Yeah.

[Dave]

I'll never understand that.

[Ash]

I'm sorry, I can't. Don't hate.

[Dave]

Don't hate me.

[Ash]

Douchebag.

[Dave]

I know.

[Ash]

But back to the story. After years of searching for Rodney after the brutal attack on 8 year old tally Shapiro, Steve Hodel there had finally captured the man whose crimes had so deeply disturbed everybody familiar with the case, Especially Steve Hodel himself.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

However, what should have been a career highlight for Steve quickly turned into an absolute mess and ultimately a very serious disappointment. So the district attorney's office. Yeah, great. The district attorney's office was eager to charge Alcala for the attack on Tali. But there was a problem. The Shapiro family, like I said in part one, had left the country.

[Dave]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

Understandably.

[Dave]

Turned the. Away from this.

[Ash]

Yeah. And they were difficult to get a hold of again. Understandably so.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And Tali's parents had spent the previous years doing everything they could to shield their daughter from any further trauma, which included talking about the attack.

[Dave]

Yeah, I get it.

[Ash]

And the fact that she doesn't remember anything.

[Dave]

Like they don't want to trigger any memories.

[Ash]

One, they don't want to trigger any memories. And two, they did their job and they did it correctly because she doesn't have any memories.

[Dave]

That's amazing.

[Ash]

So whatever her family did for her worked. Yeah, maybe it didn't work out in a court sense, but it shielded her.

[Dave]

Emotionally from what had happened. It made.

[Ash]

It made her okay. And that's all I care about.

[Dave]

Because she's able to, like, speak about, you know, what she does remember now.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Which is like a very. I used the word harrowing before, but that's harrowing to do.

[Ash]

I thought you were going to Use that word because it's perfect. But the prosecutor tried to convince the Shapiro's to return to LA and allow Tali to testify against Alcala. But the family did not want to put their 8 year old daughter through that.

[Dave]

No, and I don't blame them. I get it.

[Ash]

But without their main witness, which also happened to. Or who also happened to be Alcala's accuser, the district attorney had no choice to either offer him a deal or drop the case altogether because it just wasn't going to be as strong.

[Dave]

That sucks that that's the option.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

You either traumatize this eight year old or like lose the case. Like what? That sucks.

[Ash]

And it's like I like ob. You can still present the facts without her there and tell a jury. Of course it's going to be. It's going to drive the point home harder. If the actual. You see the actual girl. It's going to pull on your heartstrings and.

[Dave]

But honestly, it shouldn't take that.

[Ash]

It shouldn't take.

[Dave]

It shouldn't take her sitting in front of you.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Dave]

The facts are the facts.

[Ash]

But I think they were just worried.

[Dave]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

And you can understand why. So unwilling to completely drop the case altogether, the DA was willing to allow Alcala to plead to the lesser charge of child molestation. Which is fucking insane. That. That's a lesser charge.

[Dave]

That's insane to me.

[Ash]

Child molestation is a lesser charge. Like we got. We gotta, we gotta do better.

[Dave]

We gotta do better, guys.

[Ash]

So he was gonna plead to that in exchange for an indeterminate sentence of anywhere from one year to life in prison. So this could go so many ways.

[Dave]

That's quite a, quite a stretch.

[Ash]

Given the circumstances, which we all know from part one. The prosecutor expected the judge to impose a pretty lengthy sentence, but was absolutely shocked when Alcala was sentenced to one to 10 years with the opportunity for parole after just one year.

[Dave]

That's honestly disgusting.

[Ash]

It is.

[Dave]

And it's despicable.

[Ash]

Ultimately, he would serve 34 months in prison for the attempted murder of 8 year old Tali Shapiro.

[Dave]

This man abducted an 8 year old and brutally assaulted and tried to murder her.

[Ash]

Yep. Yep.

[Dave]

What the fuck is wrong with.

[Ash]

Everybody would have if not for a.

[Dave]

Good Samaritan, literally would have. She'd be gone.

[Ash]

Absolutely 100,000%. So after he was sentenced and you know, was kind of riding out some of his sentence, a prison psychologist deemed him, quote, unquote, considerably improved and recommended him for parole in 1974.

[Dave]

Well, they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Ash]

Also, yeah, of course he's considerably improved because there's not women and children in prison for him to prey upon. He should considerably improved. There's no temptation for him, of course.

[Dave]

What? He can't attack children in there, so.

[Ash]

How does that even make any sense?

[Dave]

That's disgusting.

[Ash]

But the parole board's decision to release him after such a short time was obviously frustrating for Steve Hodel, who knew the full extent of what Alcala had done. He said, my impression was that it was his first sex crime and we got him early and society is relatively safe now. I had no idea in two years he would be out and continue his reign of terror and horror. I expected he was put away and society was safe. It is such a tragedy that so much more came after that.

[Dave]

And he did his job.

[Ash]

Yeah, he did everything that he had to do. He tracked him down all the way to New Hampshire.

[Dave]

He was waiting. Like, he was probably looking at this. Like he said, like, we got him, we got him early. Something awful happened for him to be caught.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Dave]

But hopefully that's the end of it.

[Ash]

And no more has to happen. But, nope, that's not the story. After his release, Alala returned to living with his mother in LA and started supporting himself as a wedding photographer. Can you imagine if this man photographed your wedding?

[Dave]

Imagine looking back on your wedding photos.

[Ash]

And being like, like those poor people, they're victims too.

[Dave]

Yeah. Like I'm like, what the.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

How do you reconcile that later? You.

[Ash]

I don't think you do. I think you have them redone at that point to the parole board. He seemed to be adhering perfectly to the terms of his parole. But it didn't take long before he gave in to his worst impulses. One afternoon in mid October, just two months after his release from prison, he was driving around Huntington beach when he spotted 13 year old Julie Johnson.

[Dave]

Oh, he's a monster.

[Ash]

He's a predator. She was waiting at a bus stop outside a shopping center, just as he had with Tally Shapiro years earlier. He pulled his car up to the sidewalk and offered her a ride. At first she paid no attention to him, so he put on some charm and he said he had some great posters that he wanted to show her, which is so creepy. The trick worked though, which you can understand. It's a 13 year old and again, it's a very different time. Julie agreed to go with him on the condition that he drop her off at school. But as they started driving, she noticed that the man who said his name was John Ronald, had driven right past her school. And when she pointed that out, he said something about needing to check out an apartment and promised it wouldn't take too long and then he'd get her to school. So now, concerned that she might be in trouble, she became visibly anxious and she couldn't sit still, which made him yell at her. He started yelling at her, oh my.

[Dave]

God, this is horrifying to think about.

[Ash]

The jarring shift in his tone and the fact that they were getting further and further away from her school started to frighten Julie, and she told him to pull over and let her out. But rather than pull over, he steered the car into the Pacific coast highway, headed way away from downtown Huntington Beach.

[Dave]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Or, you know, just the way they.

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[Ash]

When the car finally did come to a stop, they were in a remote area on the Huntington beach bluffs, which is about a 15 minute drive from where he picked her up. 15 minutes is such a long time in a situation like that. God, that must have felt like 100 years. Yeah. She tried to run as soon as the door was open, but he caught her by the arm and dragged her to an area near the edge of the bluffs where he forced her to sit down and smoke a joint with him.

[Dave]

Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

Yeah. So as he just tried to make small talk with her at that point on the bluffs, luckily a park ranger a few hundred yards below them spotted the pair and decided just to head up to see what was going on. Something seemed off to the ranger.

[Dave]

I'm so glad people are following their gut instincts with this guy because you never hear that first that good Samaritan, now this park ranger and the woman so far. And I'm sure there's more with the woman for the Dating game.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Dave]

Everyone, like this man must have like.

[Ash]

Omitted the nastiest vibes.

[Dave]

But to the most, like, like the, to people who are very like, in tune and maybe might not even realize how in tune they are to these things because obviously he other people, he came off as charming and normal and didn't give off bad vibes.

[Ash]

Well, and I think it's also the fact that he preys on young people.

[Dave]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

I don't necessarily trust their instincts.

[Dave]

They're not like, they're not equipped to like really be for those kind of things.

[Ash]

Right.

[Dave]

But to like, people who must have a little bit of something there, y it's, it's interesting to see how many people were like, what the up with this guy? Like, something is telling me to go look.

[Ash]

Yeah, something's up. Well, he also looks like a predator.

[Dave]

He does.

[Ash]

And he's also like, pushing young girls into weird situations.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, like, not to take away from what you just said, because I completely agree. But it's also like, visualize a, like, man in his mid-20s, like, pulling this girl along who's 13.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You're gonna be like, what the is that?

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And. But it's just the fact that they actually acted too.

[Dave]

Because that's the thing. Yeah.

[Ash]

And later we'll see. There were people who saw things and just looked the other way.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which is.

[Dave]

And like this guy, he's just seeing like the. The smoke.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Seeing like just two people sitting.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

So he didn't even see like the whole like, dragging her down the beach thing.

[Ash]

Yep, exactly.

[Dave]

So he's just like, something's weird.

[Ash]

He's like, what's up with this? So he carefully climbed up to the top of the bluffs and moved really quietly along the way to make sure he didn't draw any attention to himself. And when he got close, he could smell the weed in the air. So when he reached the area where they were sitting, he finally made his presence known and was like, hey, what's up here? And Alcala answered. He said, we were just hiking and now we're taking a break. But he had barely finished his sentence when Julie blurted out that Alcala had kidnapped her. Good for her. Brought her there against her will and was now making her forcing her to smoke pot with him.

[Dave]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Now uncertain which of the two he should believe because he doesn't know either of these people, you know? I don't know. I know.

[Dave]

Believe the child. They're saying they're kidnapped. Like, this is my PSA to everybody. If a kid says they're kidnapped, believe the child. At least believe. Like if. If they're not, then egg on your face, I guess. But like, whatever.

[Ash]

But he arrested them both and brought them to Huntington. Huntington beach police station. At the station, Rodney and Julie were separated and they were each separately questioned. And Alcala stuck to his story, telling the officer that he and Julie had gone for a hike and actually she was the one who supplied the joint and said they should smoke together.

[Dave]

Wow. He's just gonna blame the 13 year old girl.

[Ash]

Yeah, totally. Wow. Julie, meanwhile, stuck to her own story, which was the truth. Explaining that she had accepted a ride from this man, he refused to drop her off at school, and he had taken her out in the bluffs against her will, and also made her smoke weed when she didn't want to, thinking that she might Be lying in order to avoid punishment for being out with an older man and smoking pot. The officer also didn't know who to believe. But luckily he ran a background check on Rodney Alcala and the result came back identifying him as a sex offender on parole.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So police released Julie to her parents and Rodney was booked on charges of supplying drugs to a minor, kidnapping and violating parole.

[Dave]

There's so many little layers to this one. Because one, even if the girl is lying and she snuck out with an older man to do this, why is this older? That's the older man's fault. Because she's a child and he is grooming and fudgeing. Like, are you preying upon, like, we're really like. I don't know who to believe here. I don't know. Let's look at the facts that she's with a grown fucking man. Yeah, let's, let's go with. It's his fault, no matter what.

[Ash]

She was one of those hippie tops who was smoking weed.

[Dave]

And it's like, and then this, this poor girl has been kidnapped from a.

[Ash]

Bus stop when she was literally just.

[Dave]

Going to school and has been taken somewhere against, like screamed at, taken somewhere against her will, dragged down the beach, forced to smoke pot.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Dave]

As a 13 year old. And now she's having to be interrogated and be released to her parents.

[Ash]

Nobody even believes her.

[Dave]

And nobody's believing her. I'm like, talk about trauma.

[Ash]

And like a wake up call to the fucking way that the world works is you're a woman. So unfortunately people probably aren't going to believe you most of the time. So up.

[Dave]

That's crazy.

[Ash]

Yeah. He spent a month. Rodney spent a month awaiting a hearing. And when he went before the judge the day after Christmas in 1974, for some reason the kidnapping and drug charges were dropped.

[Dave]

I gotta go.

[Ash]

Leaving only a parole violation. So he got a sentence of two and a half years at the California Institution for Men in Chino.

[Dave]

Are you kidding me?

[Ash]

I am not. The legal system failed all of these women for a very long time in.

[Dave]

The most fucking rancid way. It's like this is. He kidnapped an 8 year old, raped her.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Dave]

And tried to kill her.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Dave]

And you let him go.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Dave]

And then he does the same thing with a third. Like he was planning.

[Ash]

God only knows that he was gonna.

[Dave]

Tell me he wasn't planning on assaulting and probably trying to kill her. And you're just going to let him go? You know, he's done it twice. But like What? Who, who would ever think.

[Ash]

Let's drop those.

[Dave]

Who would ever think he would do it a third time? Like what? What?

[Ash]

It's unreal.

[Dave]

That's insane.

[Ash]

It's unreal. Oh, just wait for this next part. Oh, God. So in July 1977, he was paroled from prison for the second time with the requirement that obviously he check in regularly with his parole officer on a weekly basis. Surprisingly, after just two visits, one, two with the parole officer, Alcala, a registered sex offender with a history of violence and a known flight risk, was granted permission by that same officer, that parole officer, to travel to New York to, quote, unquote, visit some relatives. And a week later he left California for New York where, remember, he's already gone and terrorized women. They just don't happen to know that yet.

[Dave]

I. A bunch of buffoons are involved in this.

[Ash]

Truly.

[Dave]

A bunch of buffoons.

[Ash]

Truly. And a lot of women would still be here today.

[Dave]

Yeah, a lot of women suffered and died because of these fucking buffoons. Yup, that's a buffoon. That's buffoonery.

[Ash]

It's buffoonery at its finest.

[Dave]

Wild.

[Ash]

It only gets worse.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

How Alcala spent his brief time in New York is mostly unknown, but it is strongly suspected that while there he committed his second murder, that of 23 year old Ellen Hover. She was the daughter of Manhattan nightclub owner Herman Hover. She was the last of New York's high society class and her disappearance in July 1977 was a major news event across New York City. Given her social status and her family's wealth, investigators actually assumed that Ellen's disappearance would be followed by some kind of ransom demand. Yeah, but when no demand came, they were forced to consider that she was most likely a victim of foul play. Early in the investigation, Ellen's friend Richard Middlemark told detectives that he actually had made plans with Ellen on July 13th to go to a Broadway show, the two of them. And when he called to confirm, she told him that she was going to have lunch at Bloomingdale's with a photographer and she expected to be home by 4pm that same day. She never mentioned the photographer's name, but in their search of Ellen's apartment, investigators found the name John Berg written on a calendar beside the date that she went missing.

[Dave]

John Berger.

[Ash]

John Berg, a friend who was with Ellen earlier that day, said he spotted her talking to a, quote, tall, thin, shabbily dressed man who wore his hair. It wore his long hair tied in a ponytail. Most likely Rodney Alcala.

[Dave]

I mean, that describes Him.

[Ash]

When her friend asked who the quote, unquote, freaky looking guy was, Ellen replied, oh, he's all right. He's a photographer.

[Dave]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

Yeah. Nearly a year later, In June of 1978, investigators actually, with the help of a New York psychic, discovered the skeletal remains of Ellen Hover buried beneath a pile of rocks in North Tarrytown, which is a small town about 30 miles outside of Manhattan. So she was far from home, too, which just breaks your heart. Based on the condition of the remains when they were discovered, arriving at an actually conclusive cause of death was. Was next to impossible. But the medical examiner did suspect strangulation to be the cause because there was damage to the hyoid bone. Based on the medical examiner's report, Ellen's missing person case was transferred to the homicide division. But there was little evidence to work with, and at that point, the case started going cold. Yeah, but don't worry. I will tell you that things work out there and good. I think it's part three. We get to it.

[Dave]

Okay.

[Ash]

So in the meantime, Rodney Alcala returned to LA late in the summer of 1977, where he would embark on a murder spree that would result in the deaths of at least six more women.

[Dave]

Holy.

[Ash]

And I say at least because to this day, they're still not sure how many people he killed.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

So when Rodney went back to California, he moved back in with his mommy and found a job as a typesetter with the Los Angeles Times, claiming on his resume that he had held several similar positions in the past. False, because during the time frames he provided, he was literally in prison. And apparently no one checked that up. Yeah.

[Dave]

Cool.

[Ash]

But he quickly settled into the workplace culture. He amped up his charm. He mingled with the women in the office every chance he got. One of his former co workers said he would talk about going to parties in Hollywood. It seemed like he knew famous people, but not everybody was so charmed. Another co worker, Sharon Gonzalez, told a reporter that Rodney would show her photographs from his portfolio of girls and young women. And many of those girls and young women were posed nude. She said he was very open about his sexuality. And when she asked him why he had taken the photos. This is disgusting. He told her that their parents had hired him to do so.

[Dave]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

No one's parents hired you to take naked pictures of their children.

[Dave]

Kidding me.

[Ash]

Nobody hired you for that? Like, what the are you talking about? So while he was settling into his new job at the newspaper on the other side of the country, 18 year old Jill Barcom was on her way to LA from Oneida, New York. She was eager to start a new life on the West Coast. She was one of 11 children in her family. She was the middle child. And by the time she finished high school, she was very determined to just find an adventure far away from home, like most young people from the suburbs. Obviously, when she thought of one of the most exciting places to go in America, she quickly settled on Hollywood. So as soon as they were able to go, she and two friends from school packed up their car and they headed to LA that fall, which should have been ridiculously exciting.

[Dave]

Yeah. I mean, she's 18. Let's go.

[Ash]

Yeah. OUT ON YOUR OWN on The morning of November 10, 1977, George Newton, who was an employee with the Department of Water and Power, was cleaning debris from the side of Franklin Canyon Drive near the reservoir when he saw something strange lying in a ditch. When he got closer to take a look, he realized that he was looking at the dead, partially clothed body of a young woman. So he ran back to his truck and radioed dispatch, who called the police for him and reported the discovery. Now, that summer in la, two young women had been sexually assaulted and murdered by a killer that the press had dubbed the Hillside Strangler. Strangler.

[Dave]

Now we know Strangers.

[Ash]

Exactly. And Those are episodes 256 and 258, if you want to go back to that coverage that Elena did. So when they arrived at the scene at Franklin Canyon Drive, detectives felt pretty confident that they just discovered the strangler's third victim. Yeah, this next part is a bit graphic and just want to let you know. The young woman was positioned on all fours with her knees tucked toward her chest. She was nude from the waist down, and there was obvious evidence of a violent sexual assault. A large rock lay in a pool of blood on the ground next to her, and she, too had been strangled with a blue rope that was knotted in three places.

[Dave]

Holy.

[Ash]

And they also found two impressions in the dirt that happened that appeared to be from a man shoe. So at least they had that to go on. Detective Ron Lewis of the LAPD Robbery Homicide Division told reporters it appeared that the body had been there for some time. It seemed like she put up a struggle and her killer had beaten her badly before strangling her first with his hands and then with the rope.

[Dave]

Jesus.

[Ash]

And this is a little graphic. Her pubic hair on the left side appeared to be singed. And there was additional evidence indicating that she had been burned as well, likely with a Lighter.

[Dave]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

Yeah. She suffered immensely.

[Dave]

Did you? This does feel like the Hillside Stranglers.

[Ash]

It does.

[Dave]

Like, I understand why they thought that.

[Ash]

Was the same, because it's. And it's a little off for Rodney, but he's also starting to escalate.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The medical examiner did collect fluids from her body, but of course, DNA testing was at least a decade away at that point. Other than the footprints and the blood evidence, the scene was void of any evidence that would lead to the identity of the victim or the killer at that point. But fortunately, investigators got a match on the victim's fingerprints from a previous arrest in New York earlier that year.

[Dave]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

According to the report, Jill Barkham, quote, was known by several sex workers in Oneida who referred to her as. Little Bit.

[Dave]

Oh, stop.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Oh, that makes me so sad.

[Ash]

I know. After contacting police in New York, investigators learned that Jill had only been in LA for about two weeks.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

Two weeks.

[Dave]

Wow. She goes across the country to start a new.

[Ash]

This new adventure that she's so excited about. Two weeks. She'd been there.

[Dave]

Damn.

[Ash]

Within a couple of weeks, detectives in LA had connected at least 11 strangulation murders that. That they were attributing to what they thought was the Hillside Strangler, including, at that point, the murder of Jill Barkham. Lt. Edwin Henderson told a group of reporters in early December, similarities tend to make us believe there's a connection between these murders. Eventually, as we know, police would arrest and charge Kenneth Bianchi and his cousin Angelo Buono with the Hillside Strangler murders. But when questioned about the murder of Jill Barkham, both of them denied having anything to do with her death.

[Dave]

And, you know, they weren't going to deny it.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. In fact, the investigation until Bar Jill Barkham's death would remain unsolved until 2004, when a DNA match to Rodney Alcala was made to the semen collected from Jill's body all the way back in 1977.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

Which is truly remarkable.

[Dave]

That really is.

[Ash]

But it's so sad that her family had no idea what happened to her for all those years.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It's the new year.

[Ash]

I am so ready to get back.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Every great true crime story, there's always.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Yummy.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

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[Elena]

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[Ash]

Now in early December, investigators in New York had discovered a possible link between the murder of Ellen Hover and Rodney Alcala when a search for the alias John Berger came back as one used by Alcala. Acting on a request from the FBI. LAPD officers actually picked up Alcala on December 14, 1977, and they brought him to the precinct for questioning about Ellen's case. To their surprise, not only did he admit knowing Ellen Hover, but he also said that he met with her for a photo shoot on the day she went missing. But he emphatically stated that he had nothing to do with her disappearance. He just took some pictures.

[Dave]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's probably just a coincidence.

[Ash]

And despite his insistence that he was definitely innocent, he refused to take a polygraph test and detectives had no reason to hold him, so they had to let him go.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

LAPD Detective Cliff Shepard said there was nothing to hold him on because there was no body. So he was released because at that.

[Dave]

Point they didn't have it, man.

[Ash]

Yeah. So on December 16th, just two days after he was interrogated by LA by the LAPD for Ellen's disappearance, the LA County Sheriff's officer received a call regarding 27 year old nurse Georgia Marie Wixted. According to the caller, Wickstead had failed to pick up a co worker for her carpool that morning. And she also hadn't shown up for work. And both of those things were very out of character for her. She always showed up on time. She was somebody that her friends could rely on. Repeated calls to George's apartment also went unanswered. So after the call, Deputy Jeffrey Cannon was dispatched to just go do a typical well being check.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Not expecting much there.

[Dave]

No.

[Ash]

When he arrived at Georgia Wickstead's apartment complex, Cannon was met by deputies Jack Neninger and Mike Powers. And the three men made their way through the courtyard to Georgia's apartment. The first thing they noticed was that a screen was missing on one of the three large windows at the front of the apartment. And it had been propped up against a building beside the window against the building.

[Dave]

And that's always chilling to see.

[Ash]

And there was also a box positioned underneath the window, like somebody had obviously used it to climb through. And there were also scuff marks outside the wall that seemed like they were.

[Dave]

Made by shoes or boots, like as he's climbing in.

[Ash]

So this person literally broke into her apartment. But when they tried the door handle, deputies were surprised to find that the door was actually unlocked Inside the apartment. It was nearly 90 degrees. Oh yeah, 90 degrees. And completely dark, like almost pitch black. So they switched on their flashlights. Among the first things they saw when they swept their lights across the room was a dead body lying on the floor. They drew their guns and searched a different room in the apartment looking for the killer. Just have to be sure that he's not.

[Dave]

Yeah, you don't know if he's still there.

[Ash]

And, of course, any additional victim. But once they secured the apartment, they called for additional officers and, of course, the coroner. With the curtains open and the lights on, the deputies were able to see the full extent of the violence committed in Georgia Wickstead's apartment. And it was. I can't imagine having to leave that scene and go about your life after that. Georgia was lying on the floor on her back. She was nude and completely covered in bruises, lacerations, and blood.

[Dave]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

A pair of tights were tied around her neck and knotted several times on the bed next to her. There was a large blood stain in the center of her mattress, and there was blood splatter all over the bed frames and on all four walls.

[Dave]

Holy.

[Ash]

By her head, detectives found a claw hammer that seemed to have been used in the assault.

[Dave]

My God.

[Ash]

The autopsy.

[Dave]

Far more brutal than I even anticipated.

[Ash]

He's far more brutal than I ever even knew. The autopsy report included an extensive list of injuries, including significant trauma to her face and head, skull fractures, extensive lacerations covering her body, and a fractured and dislocated arm. So she fought like hell.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The medical examiner wrote almost every injury was inflicted while she was still alive and blood was still pumping.

[Dave]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Yeah, which is awful. The ultimate cause of death listed was ligature strangulation, so she even survived those blows to the head with a claw. Although his previous murders were obviously violent, the attack. The attack on Georgia Wickstead seemed particularly brutal by comparison.

[Dave]

And unhinged.

[Ash]

Unhinged, like.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Out of control. Detective Cliff Shepard said, I think he did that one to show that he could kill with impunity.

[Dave]

Yeah, it feels that way.

[Ash]

I think so, too. And I think he's like, look, you'll arrest me, and I'll still go out and do it, and I'll. I'll go even harder. It'll be worse, and you still won't catch me.

[Dave]

Yeah. Because you just keep letting me go.

[Ash]

So look what I can do.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

However, unlike his previous crime scenes, which were light on evidence, this time he had left behind critical evidence in the form of semen, blood evidence, and even a partial palm print.

[Dave]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. While the DNA and blood evidence, again, wouldn't prove useful for at least another decade, the palm print was the first piece of solid evidence that investigators could find. And all detectives needed was a hand to match it to. After the murder of Georgia Wixtead, though Rodney Alcohol just returned to his ordinary life.

[Dave]

God, this guy.

[Ash]

Yeah. Just went back to his job at the Times, was taking photographs on the side for extra money, photographing people's weddings, which is truly unthinkable that he could do that and then go to a wedding ceremony and take pictures. Wow. In March of 1978, the LAPD's Hillside Strangler Task Force had narrowed down their list of suspects and were questioning those they believed could be involved in the brutal string of killings. And as a child rapist, his name was among those on the list. So police paid him a visit at his mother's house to question him. I just have to say, like, his mom must be like, what's going on? Like, police are showing up here all the time, but every time they show up, she tells them that he has nothing to do with anything. It's like, I get it. Like, that's your son. If the police keep showing up and he keeps being linked to this many.

[Dave]

Things, you gotta hold him accountable. He did some wrong. Yeah, yeah. Like, come on, I just needed to say that.

[Ash]

So although he was ruled out as a suspect in the Hillside case, while they were at his home, they discovered that he was in the possession of a small amount of marijuana. So they arrested him on a petty drug charge just to keep him. Yeah, it earned him that possession charge, earned him a three month jail sentence. So he spent three more months in jail and was released in late June of 1978. On the morning of June 21st, June 24th. Excuse me. Just days after he was released from jail, Zafar Shah, a resident at the Illinois apartment in El Segundo, made a truly brutal discovery. Shaw had just entered the basement of the building to do some laundry when he almost stumbled over the body of 31 year old Charlotte Lamb.

[Dave]

And just days after he was released, just days holy.

[Ash]

Shaw ran to the building's manager office and together they called the police, who arrived a little before noon. Upon arrival, Detective William Gaynor was met by the building manager, who took him down into the basement. Lam's body was lying nude on the floor, a long shoelace tied tightly around her neck, and a piece of wood with a small amount of blood splatter was next to her head. It was very clear that she had been sexually assaulted. And among the more curious aspects of the crime scene, though, was that Lam, who at that point had yet to be identified, didn't live at the Illinois Apartments and was unknown to the residents there. So that wasn't Even where she lived. And this is an apartment complex laundry room.

[Dave]

What?

[Ash]

But not one she lives at. Like, so strange.

[Dave]

That's so bizarre.

[Ash]

It is. Her body was taken to the medical examiner's office, where an autopsy was conducted by Dr. Joseph Kogan. In his report, he noted that there was considerable trauma to her face and head. There were bite marks on the right side of her neck.

[Dave]

Jesus, this is brutal.

[Ash]

There were lacerations over her entire genital area. And the ligature was so forcefully tightened that the cartilage around her voice box and thyroid was fractured. And the blood vessels in her eyes were ruptured. Wow. This attack was. Wow, he's an animal. Like, he's a.

[Dave]

Literally a wild animal.

[Ash]

A demon.

[Dave]

Holy.

[Ash]

And again, according to the autopsy, the majority of Charlotte's injuries were inflicted while she was still alive. And the ultimate cause of death was the ligature strangulation.

[Dave]

Yeah, because I was gonna say all that trauma from the ligature, she experienced all of that?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Holy shit.

[Ash]

Swabs of fluid and bite mark impressions were taken and stored for later analysis. Something they did do really well was keep all the. Even though they couldn't use like. Like the fluid evidence, the semen, that kind of stuff, they did a good job of taking it anyway and storing it.

[Dave]

And.

[Ash]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like a lot of things got lost along the way, which is great. Yeah. Now, days after Charlotte hadn't shown up for work and nobody had heard from her, several calls were placed at to the LAPD to report her missing. At the same time, her car had been ticketed and was eventually impounded in Santa Monica. And between the two events, investigators were finally able to identify Charlotte Lamb as the body discovered in that basement. But now, how she had wound up there would remain a mystery to everyone for some time to come.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. Investigators pursued this case for months, but the evidence was scarce and leads were pretty slim. That September, Rodney Alcala's life took a bizarre turn when he was recruited as a contestant on the Dating Game. So this. All of everything we've talked about so far has happened before he was even on the Dating Game.

[Dave]

That's bonkers.

[Ash]

And then he just goes on, and.

[Dave]

He just goes on the Dating Game?

[Ash]

Yeah. Like what? And if you're not familiar, it was a popular show back in the 70s and, I think, 80s where a single woman would interview three men, and they sat behind a curtain, and she would just. Just choose one of them to go on a date with. The show became known for its frequent use of very risque double Entendres and thinly veiled allusions to sexual objects. It was a spicy show.

[Dave]

They would be like sex.

[Ash]

They'd be like, but. But they'd like say it different than yeah.

[Dave]

They would say like but not.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah. In this particular episode, Bachelorette Cheryl Bradshaw asked the hidden bachelors, I'm serving you for dinner. What are you called and what do you look like?

[Dave]

What a question.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

I think they were pre written very of the time. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

Bachelor number one, Rodney replied, I'm called the banana and I look really good. Peel me.

[Dave]

I hate this a lot.

[Ash]

I will peel you. I hate with a potato peeler.

[Dave]

Yeah, yeah. The Dating Game sounds like a nightmare anyways.

[Ash]

Yeah, it truly does.

[Dave]

Like if these are the answers you're getting. Who, who's. Where are the choices, my friend? Where are the choices?

[Ash]

Below ground level.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The response got a laugh out of Bradshaw in the audience, setting a kind of light hearted tone. And throughout the episode, Alcala did his best, his absolute best to charm Bradshaw, describing himself as a long haired photographer who enjoyed skydiving and motorcycling in his spare time.

[Dave]

What makes me crazy about this and is like very horrifying is like all he's done up to this point and he's like, I think he'll go on tv.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Like he just know. He's like spotlight. And it's like what? And he did, he didn't care that spotlight was going to be thrust upon him. He was that convinced and honestly he.

[Ash]

Had every reason why.

[Dave]

Did he? Yeah. He didn't have any reason to think he would be.

[Ash]

The legal system showed him. You can be a fucking monster to children.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And you'll get away with it.

[Dave]

And we'll let you out.

[Ash]

And we'll let you out. You can serve like a couple years, it'll be easy and then you get out and just get right back to it.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And then maybe we'll get you. But maybe not.

[Dave]

Maybe not.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Wow. It's just very disconcerting and this appearance.

[Ash]

On the Dating Game, like obviously before Cheryl gets the weird feeling and it's interesting that she actually, you know, she picked him.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And she, she was, you know, stunned by his charm in the, in the.

[Dave]

Moment, in the spotlight.

[Ash]

In the spotlight. When she can't see him.

[Dave]

Exactly.

[Ash]

And then she sees him and like.

[Dave]

Has a personal conversation.

[Ash]

But it's a quick exchange. Even in that quick exchange she sees him and she sees him for exactly who the fuck he is.

[Dave]

Cuz I think also the mask drops.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Dave]

Big Time, like, he's on. He's on tv. He's sitting there charming everyone. He's putting on a show. And then he goes in front of her and he says, like, three words, and she's like, you're weird, and I'm good.

[Ash]

And I think. And this is just, like, my personal thought. I think she saw his eyes, and I think she thought about those eyes, that there was something fucking dead behind those eyes.

[Dave]

Listen to your gut, everybody.

[Ash]

I can't imagine people who did were.

[Dave]

The right ones in this story.

[Ash]

Yeah. Oh, his eyes are so beady and scary. And it breaks my heart that they were the last thing some people saw.

[Dave]

Yeah, it's.

[Ash]

I hate this guy. But like I just said, the audience loved Alcala. It seemed that Cheryl did in the moment, too, especially when she chose him to be her date. At the end of the episode, she told the host, well, I like bananas, so I'll take one meaning bachelor number one as winner. Cheryl and Rodney were awarded tennis lessons and a trip to California's Magic Mountain amusement park. Can you fucking imagine if she had accepted that date and gone to tennis lessons with Rodney Alcala?

[Dave]

And then an amusement park.

[Ash]

And then an amusement park.

[Dave]

The amusement park alone, I can't. But, like, with Rodney Alcala, I can't. I don't like. And that's the thing. It's like, he probably would have killed Cheryl 100%. Like, I don't see him.

[Ash]

No.

[Dave]

Just going on that date.

[Ash]

No.

[Dave]

I see this as the next step in his, like, let's see if I.

[Ash]

Can do this, because it's upping the ante. Oh, I'll win this date with her.

[Dave]

Everyone will see it.

[Ash]

You know, he went into that being like, I'm gonna win.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, I know I'm going to. Because he's a cocky motherfucker. And he did. He did win.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I think he thought, I'll just do this in front of America's face. Literally win this date and I'll kill this girl and I'll get away with it.

[Dave]

I'll kill this girl that everyone sees me win the date with.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Dave]

And they still won't catch me and.

[Ash]

I'll get away with it. But it's, like, exactly what he was playing.

[Dave]

But it's like, that is also, like. That's a level of, like, hubris.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Dave]

That is Greek mythology. Like, style like that. Like, that is like, that's so wild. Because you're just like. I know that was your intention.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Dave]

But if you had gone on that Date with Cheryl. And like, thank goodness Cheryl. I am so glad Cheryl got out of this. But I'm like, if you had killed Cheryl.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And like everyone knew that you won this date with her and you were the last person with her. You would have been caught like that. That would have been the end.

[Ash]

But he had been caught. And it's like so many times he was so sure because I think, I do think he's a narcissist.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And you know me armchair dying well.

[Dave]

And it's like literally, like it's diabolical level of hubris.

[Ash]

But again he.

[Dave]

That would have been it. Like there, there. That wouldn't have been one you can get out of. You would have been the last person with that person.

[Ash]

You would think. But then, but then you also have to wonder because he didn't even get convicted. Everybody knew what he did to tally Shapiro at 8 years old. Everybody knew. So that gave him the full blown confidence to say, look what I can do to an 8 year old girl in the middle of the fucking morning at a place where she lives.

[Dave]

And I got out in 30 something three years. Yeah.

[Ash]

And went to go do stuff again. I got caught with a 13 year old girl and I just blamed it on her.

[Dave]

Nothing.

[Ash]

And I got those charges got dropped.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I just had to serve a parole violation for I think it was three months. I think he thought this was every.

[Dave]

Every reason to think that this was gonna be. It's just. I think my brain just won't wrap. I'm like, it shouldn't. This is just like.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

It's just like whoa.

[Ash]

It's bonkers.

[Dave]

It's just whoa.

[Ash]

I think he was a monster. And then I think the legal system even pushed him further into. Well, it didn't even enable him. Exactly. Completely exactly.

[Dave]

It's just very shocking. And poor Cheryl.

[Ash]

I know.

[Dave]

Poor Cheryl just for like being that close to this. You know, I can't imagine she got away from this when.

[Ash]

I just can't imagine how she felt when she finding out what had happened.

[Dave]

To those poor women and girls before her.

[Ash]

Before her and after her.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because. Geez. He goes on.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Another spree. This is just one spree.

[Dave]

Jeez.

[Elena]

Getting your license is like super exciting.

[Ash]

And then getting your first car and all that.

[Elena]

What's not? Like the most exciting part of all of that is insurance. I remember being like, where do I even start? Why are there 452 insurance companies? Which one actually cares about me?

[Ash]

I'm so stressed.

[Elena]

Well, I wish that when I was 16 years old. Insurify was an insurance comparison site that I had known about, but now it is. Insurify is an insurance comparison site and it has dozens of top insurers compete for your business, which drives the prices down. Insurify lets you compare real time quotes from dozens of top insurers, including the names that you know and that you trust. The entire Insurify process is handled completely online. Amazing. That means no annoying phone calls, no ridiculous fees, no spam. Ever.

[Ash]

Back in my day I had to.

[Elena]

Call so many people.

[Ash]

Ugh.

[Elena]

But get this. With Insurify, you can get insurance coverage in as little as 10 minutes. Do you understand how groundbreaking that is? Get to insurify.com to compare car insurance quotes in real time and start saving today. That's I n s U-R-I-F y.com insurify.com Average potential savings based on initial quotes received by 183,234 customers seeking insurance through Insurify. Actual savings may vary depending on state of residence, individual circumstances, coverage selections, and insurance provider savings results are not guaranteed.

[Ash]

So like we like we know when the the show finished taping, Like I said, at the top of Part one, Cheryl started to feel like she'd made a bad choice. According to former homicide detective Matt Mur, the moment where he comes around the partition and Cheryl Bradshaw looks at him, there's a moment in her eyes where you can see she's being polite. But she did refuse to go on a date with him.

[Dave]

See? And he said it.

[Ash]

I want to watch it back. I've seen clips, but I've never seen the two of them interact.

[Dave]

The moment when he comes around the partition is very interesting.

[Ash]

Immediately after seeing Alcala in person, like we know she went to Ellen Metzger, who was the show's producer, and she said, ellen, I can't go out with this guy. There's weird vibes that are coming off him. He's very strange. I'm not comfortable. Will that be a problem? And again, thankfully, Ellen Metzger assured her it was not going to be a problem. She was not under any obligation to go on this date. And Cheryl left the studio that afternoon, like we know, completely unaware that she narrowly avoided spending time with a brutal killer.

[Dave]

Jesus.

[Ash]

It turned out Cheryl Bradshaw was not the only person put off by Alcala's strange, very intense energy. According to Jed Mills, who was one of the other bachelors on the episode, Alcala's strange behavior and demeanor in the green room before the taping, he felt Was very bizarre and very off putting.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

He said, I'm kind of bending toward the other guy to get away from him. And I don't know if I did that consciously. He was quiet, but at the same time he would inter interrupt and impose whenever he felt like it. And he was very obnoxious and creepy. He became very unlikable and rude and imposing as though he was trying to intimidate.

[Dave]

Huh?

[Ash]

Yeah. And just. Just to think that this other bachelor found himself pulling away from this guy.

[Dave]

Like this man was like. Yeah.

[Ash]

Like something about Rodney's energy made him move away from him whether he meant to or not.

[Dave]

Yeah. Like that's creepy.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

You know, something's off when like even. He's even coming off as predatory to another man.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Rodney's failure on the dating game did not seem to affect his confidence in any way. In February of 1979, just a few months after being rejected by Cheryl Bradshaw, Alcala was back out on the streets looking for a new victim.

[Dave]

And imagine being Cheryl too. I didn't even think of this part of it being the woman. You said, no, I'm not going out with him. And now he knows who you are.

[Ash]

I know.

[Dave]

And you're worried. Like, he gave me the creeps. Like I would be. And she doesn't even know what he's done. No, but it's like you were creeped out enough to not want to go out with him. I would be. Like, that must have, like weighed on her a little bit just being like.

[Ash]

Is he gonna follow me?

[Dave]

Like, is he mad? Is he gonna be like, weird about it? Like, that's a. I mean, men get really fucking weird when they get rejected. So it's like men get weird when.

[Ash]

They'Re rejected privately, Literally.

[Dave]

I can't imagine publicly like you can. I'm sure she was very nervous about that. And then to hear later I'd be like, oh my God. Like that, like, like, holy.

[Ash]

Yeah. No, you're so right.

[Dave]

That's a whole different plan to work through.

[Ash]

He did stalk people.

[Dave]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

I'm sure we'll find out.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In part three that he was a star.

[Dave]

Oh, I believe it.

[Ash]

Yeah. But like I said, he just a few months after that, he was back out on the streets looking for a new victim. On February 13th, just the day before Valentine's Day, he was driving through Riverside, California when he spotted 15 year old Monique Hoyt hitchhiking and he stopped and offered her a ride. His back seat was full of camera equipment and Alcala asked if he could take Monique's picture, telling her it was for a contest and they could both win a prize. Oh. If he entered and they both won.

[Dave]

Ah.

[Ash]

To the 15 year old, he seemed like a, quote, nice, charming, mild man. And he also came off as a legitimate photographer because he's got all this stuff with him.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So she agreed to let him take her picture.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By the time they reached Alcala's mother's house, he literally brought this girl back to his mother's house. This is a 15 year old girl.

[Dave]

Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

Just gonna state that for exactly what it is.

[Dave]

Jesus Christ.

[Ash]

The sun had started to go down and he told Monique that the next day would be better for pictures. So they spent the night together at his mom's house.

[Dave]

She's 15.

[Ash]

She's 15, remember? And we don't know what happened, but she's 15. When they woke up the next day, he packed the camera equipment into the car and they drove out to the desert. Desert area near Banning, about 80 miles outside of LA. So they drove for, you got to think over an hour in the car together.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The first few photos that he took were simple posing shots. But before long, he asked Monique if she would be opposed to taking some nude photos, which he has no right to ask her because she's 15 years.

[Dave]

Old, she's a literal child and she.

[Ash]

Can'T consent to that.

[Dave]

No.

[Ash]

She did agree, but as she was lifting her shirt over her head, he struck her in the face with a large tree branch, sending her slumping to the ground where she blacked out. He hit her so hard she blacked out.

[Dave]

A 15 year old.

[Ash]

When she regained consciousness. This is brutal and awful. He was sexually assaulting her, but she had the wherewithal to pretend to still be unconscious while this was happening. But eventually the pain and the trauma of it all became too much and she started screaming. And at that point, he yelled at her to shut up, stuffed her T shirt into her mouth and started choking her with his hands until she lost consciousness for the second time.

[Dave]

Holy.

[Ash]

When she woke up for the second time, her. She woke up and realized that her hands and feet were both bound. And now she looked next to her and saw that Rodney Alcala was lying beside her on a blanket sobbing.

[Dave]

I can't. With these fucking creeps who do this shit and then start to cry and stuff like, you gotta go.

[Ash]

I just can't imagine enduring what that girl endured at 15 years old and.

[Dave]

Then watching this man sit there and cry next to her on a blanket.

[Ash]

Like, what the Level of confusion. She's also blacked out two times because he strangled her and hit her in the head. And then she wakes. Like, the confused. The. The bizarre confusion of this that would be so over.

[Dave]

Over the line of my comprehension that I couldn't even. Like that.

[Ash]

Now, remember, she's blacked out twice, but still relied on her instincts and turned to Rodney and started comforting him, knowing that she could maybe reverse psychology him.

[Dave]

Monique is smart as boss. Smart as a whip boss. Yeah.

[Ash]

She told him that she wanted to spend more time with him and said, can we just go back to your house? Would that be okay?

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

She also begged him not to tell anybody what had happened between them. She said, just don't tell anybody, and I won't tell anybody.

[Dave]

See, and that's smart, too, because you're being like, I don't want anyone to know. Like, I'm not gonna tell anyone.

[Ash]

I would never tell anybody. She begged him, don't say anything. He didn't respond to any of her questions, just remained completely silent. But it appeared that this reverse psychology worked. He started untying her silently, though. I can't imagine.

[Dave]

I also just like, I'm really. I admire this level of collectedness because being able to, like, compartmentalize what's going on and think that quickly whenever, like, people. Survivors will do this kind of thing. I'm like, I just. That. That's so admirable to me because I have a lot of trouble not showing exactly how I feel about a situation.

[Ash]

Me too.

[Dave]

Like, I have a lot. You're gonna tell if I'm aggravated, if.

[Ash]

I pissed some pisses. Yeah.

[Dave]

And if I'm upset, I'm upset. And it's like I have trouble, like, bending my emotion to go the other way. And these people can just like. Like, these women just are able to, like, just zone in and think so clearly.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's very admirable when meanwhile, your nervous system is probably the most fucking. Is definitely. You're most panicked it's ever been.

[Dave]

Losing its mind is out of whack.

[Ash]

But your brain, somehow your mind and your survival instincts must just kick in. But the tension in this moment of him untying her completely silent.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And she's just sitting there hoping, like, this is. I'm hoping this is working.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She has no idea. They could walk down together and he could hit her over the head again and this could all start back up.

[Dave]

He's already horrifically assaulted her in every way.

[Ash]

They both just silently got dressed and returned to the car and started Driving again, the long distance back to Los Angeles, over 80 miles. Once they made it down the mountain and entered Banning, Alcala stopped at a fast food restaurant to play. And he went in to place an order. And he told Monique to wait for him while he went inside to use the bathroom.

[Dave]

Wow.

[Ash]

As soon as. So he trusted her at that point.

[Dave]

She got him to.

[Ash]

She was able to convince him, I'm not gonna say anything if you don't. And, like, I'd like to spend more time together.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

As soon as he was out of sight, she ran to the motel next door and started screaming for help. One of the motel guests called 91 1, while some other people brought her into their room to wait for police. So, again, more Good Samaritans here. Yeah, because some people hear people screaming, and they're like, I don't want to get involved.

[Dave]

Yeah. They're like, that sounds crazy, or I.

[Ash]

Don'T know what I heard, Whatever. But these people heard her screaming, called the police and said, come in here. You're safe. Damn, I love it. So in the meantime, Alcala had returned to the car and obviously realized that Monique had escaped. So he got back into the car and just dipped like, flood that scene completely.

[Dave]

Piece of.

[Ash]

When police got there, Monique gave a description of her kidnapper, and she knew his name, so she told them his name. And after picking him out of a photo lineup of six images, investigators knew exactly where to find Rodney Alcala.

[Dave]

Of course they did.

[Ash]

At his mom's house.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because that's where he lives always.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

He was quickly arrested for the assault. The next day, in his interview with detectives, he claimed that Monique had agreed to be photographed by him. And she said that she would, quote, simulate sex acts.

[Dave]

Jesus Christ. She was 15, so she can't agree to that.

[Ash]

He said eventually, she changed her mind, and that's when he started choking her.

[Dave]

Oh, okay. Oh, he's just like, you know, you can understand. She changed, choking her.

[Ash]

So, you know.

[Dave]

You know, after the child said she wouldn't do that. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

He told the detectives that the situation had gotten out of hand. He never intended to attack her. He said, you're in an unreasoning situation. Your brain and you just don't seem to know what to do. You're not reasoning, you're not thinking, I raped her. So he literally told police outright, I raped her.

[Dave]

And it's like, I'm sorry. Don't try to, like, under, like, have a moment with everyone and be like, you know, you know what? I don't Know what you're doing. It's like, no. Most people do know what they're doing.

[Ash]

I know exactly.

[Dave]

Like, don't try to be on a level with me. We're not on the same level.

[Ash]

No. So given his violent criminal history, the prosecutor asked the judge to set the bail at $50,000 for Rodney.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

For some crazy ass reason, the judge found that amount to be too high.

[Dave]

Are you kidding me?

[Ash]

For raping a child. For the second time. For the second time, everybody. And said, when I tell you the.

[Dave]

Buffoonery here just in the legal system.

[Ash]

I want to look at all of these people today and be like, hey, you all got blood on your hands.

[Dave]

Yeah. I want to be like, how do you feel?

[Ash]

How does that feel?

[Dave]

Because they do sleep at night.

[Ash]

They absolutely do.

[Dave]

Do you sleep good at night?

[Ash]

Why? I'm like, did you read the wrong transcript or you like, you knew that he had already raped a child and now he's being accused of raping a child again.

[Dave]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And you're like, nah, 50,000 is too high. How about no bail? Like, I don't know what all the rules are for bail, but obviously there was the option here to set it higher at 50,000.

[Dave]

He would have killed her, he raped her, he abducted her, he took lewd.

[Ash]

Photos of her and also literally was choking the life out, choked her to the point of unconsciousness at least one time and hit her in the face so hard with a tree branch that she lost consciousness a second time. Like, are you serious, dude? So his bail was set at just $10,000 and his mommy wasted no time coming to his aid, believing that there must have been some terrible. No.

[Dave]

And she's got to get it. She's got to get a grip. Agree is what she needs to do.

[Ash]

Agree.

[Dave]

Like, you gotta hold. Hold your son accountable. Let's be real.

[Ash]

100. On March 16, Rodney was released on bail and returned to mommy's house to await his trial, which was scheduled for September.

[Dave]

That is discuss.

[Ash]

And that is where we're going to wrap for part two. In part three, we will see yet another flop of a legal system and many other women who ended up losing their lives because of that.

[Dave]

That is unthinkable.

[Ash]

But luckily he gets caught and apprehended and goes to multiple trials, which is really fucking annoying in and of itself. But it ends on a good note.

[Dave]

At least there's that.

[Ash]

As good of. I should say as good of a note as it can.

[Dave]

Yeah. At least like some justice is served in the end. Okay. I mean, I know he's. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

I mean, he died, but I mean.

[Dave]

Like, hella bitch, he died. So justice was served.

[Ash]

Yes, exactly.

[Dave]

Damn.

[Ash]

Like this.

[Dave]

This is just such a fucking brutal.

[Ash]

And awful case and just full of failure.

[Dave]

Yeah. And these poor women and young girls are sitting there watching this guy get away with it each time.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And just like the. The ones who have escaped, who have survived him are watching him literally do it again and again.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Dave]

And no one's listening. No one gives a shit.

[Ash]

And it's like we said, you know, Cheryl Bradshaw obviously must have been terrified just for turning down a date. Imagine being 15 year old, Monique. You accuse him of rape and his bail gets set at $10,000 and he gets out.

[Dave]

I can't.

[Ash]

The man who raped you after beating you and strangling you unconscious twice is just out on the streets again.

[Dave]

I really can't.

[Ash]

What do you. How do you. How do you deal with that at all? How do you rationalize that in your brain?

[Dave]

I don't know if you can, to.

[Ash]

Be quite honest, but there is, unfortunately, a lot more. A lot more horrific details. He's not done part three. He's not done. But again, it ends on as good of a note as it can, so stay tuned for that. We hope you keep listening and we.

[Dave]

Hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

I don't have to tell you not to keep it this weird.

[Dave]

Sat sa.

[Ash]

If you like morbid.

[Elena]

You can listen early and ad free.

[Ash]

Right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[D]

A few miles from the glass spires of midtown Atlanta lies the south river forest. In 2021 and 2022, the woods became a home to activists from all over the country who gathered to stop the nearby construction of a massive new police training facility nicknamed Cop City.

[Dave]

At approximately 9:00 this morning, as law enforcement was moving through various sectors of the property, an individual without warning shot a Georgia State Patrol troop.

[D]

This is We Came to the Forest, a story about resistance.

[Dave]

The abolitionist mission isn't done until every prison is empty. Tea and shut down.

[D]

Love and fellowship.

[Dave]

It was probably the happiest I've ever been in my life.

[D]

And the lengths will go to protect the things we hold closest to our hearts. Follow We Came to the Forest. On the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts, you can binge all episodes of We Came to the Forest. Early and ad free right now by joining Wondery.