Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon

Summary

Morbid Network | Wondery
Episode 650: Plagues of Hysteria with Andrew McMahon
Release Date: March 3, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this intriguing episode of Morbid, titled "Plagues of Hysteria", hosts Ash and Elena delve deep into the eerie and perplexing phenomenon of dancing plagues throughout history. Joined by special guest Andrew McMahon, renowned musician from bands like Something Corporate and Jack's Mannequin, the conversation seamlessly blends true crime, creepy history, and a touch of humor.

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Guest Background: Andrew McMahon

Andrew McMahon shares insights into his musical journey, highlighting his early connection to the piano as a means to cope with personal loss. McMahon discusses how songwriting became a sanctuary for him, leading to the formation of Something Corporate and subsequent musical projects.

Andrew McMahon [02:35]: "Writing songs became my whole... it was a way to process my world."

He reflects on the evolution of his music, the challenges of staying creative, and maintaining relevance across multiple generations of fans.

Andrew McMahon [11:03]: "I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me... how do I really talk about what's relevant to me now and put that in a pop song."

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Exploring Dancing Plagues in History

Early Instances of Dancing Mania

The discussion shifts to the dancing plagues that have plagued Europe for centuries. The hosts and McMahon explore various documented cases, starting as early as 1021 CE in the small German town of Kolbeekt.

Key Event: Kolbeekt (1021 CE)

• Incident: 18 residents began dancing uncontrollably outside the church on Christmas Eve.
• Outcome: The priest, unable to control the chaos, cursed them to dance for a year, leading to exhaustion and death for many.

Andrew McMahon [23:35]: "It was like... the corridor drama... but it didn't fit right."

Key Event: Erfurt (1247 CE)

• Incident: Over 200 people danced on a bridge over the Moselle River in Maastricht until the bridge collapsed, resulting in numerous deaths.
• Alternate Account: Some survivors were taken to a chapel dedicated to Saint Vitus and were miraculously cured.

Elena [26:03]: "He was like, let's see if we can break some vows."

Saint Vitus and the "Dance of St. Vitus"

Saint Vitus becomes a central figure in explaining these plagues. Known as the patron saint of dancers and entertainers, his veneration was believed to offer protection against such irrational behaviors.

Ash [27:58]: "He's the patron saint of dance. Let's go with that."

However, the phenomenon wasn't solely attributed to divine intervention. Over time, the term "St. Vitus Dance" became synonymous with the dancing mania, though it was later understood to be a misinterpretation of the actual neurological disorder chorea.

Elena [28:16]: "There's no reason for this, but they just believed it to be like a mass, like, psychogenic illness."

Tarantism and Its Cultural Implications

Emerging in 13th-century Italy, tarantism was another form of mass hysteria linked to spider bites. Victims believed they were cursed by tarantulas, leading to frenzied dancing in an attempt to rid themselves of the perceived venom.

Ash [29:02]: "They meant choreo."

McMahon humorously relates this to modern-day phenomena, likening witch trials to controlled outbreaks of hysteria.

Andrew McMahon [31:22]: "It's a trauma reaction. Yeah, yeah."

The 1518 Strasbourg Dancing Plague

One of the most infamous events, the Strasbourg Dancing Plague of 1518, saw hundreds join a single woman's inexplicable dance in the streets, leading to a significant number of deaths from overexertion and heart attacks.

Andrew McMahon [43:05]: "She just started dancing."

Despite attempts to curtail the mania by removing dancers to churches and banning public performances, the plague persisted, highlighting the challenges of understanding and controlling mass psychogenic illnesses.

Elena [44:49]: "That's a fun master."

Nunneries and the Plagues

In the Habsburg Netherlands, nunneries experienced unique manifestations of these plagues, combining dancing with bizarre behaviors such as climbing trees and meowing like cats. These incidents were often met with religious interventions, including exorcisms, which sometimes led to further complications.

Andrew McMahon [38:18]: "They brought the priests. They were chanting and composing their own music."

The blending of religious authority and superstitions further complicated societal responses to these afflictions.

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Modern Interpretations and Psychological Insights

Historian John Waller provides a contemporary perspective, suggesting that these plagues were classic examples of mass psychogenic illness—a phenomenon where psychological stresses manifest as physical symptoms within a group.

John Waller [53:11]: "There's considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues... were classic instances of mass psychogenic illness."

The hosts discuss how societal pressures, such as famine, natural disasters, and political turmoil preceding these events, likely contributed to the outbreaks as extreme stress responses.

Elena [54:27]: "It can be viewed as kind of like an extreme reaction of stress relief. Like a reaction to trauma."

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Conclusion: Legacy of the Dancing Plagues

The episode concludes by reflecting on the enduring mystery and fascination with dancing plagues. While modern science offers explanations through psychology and sociology, the historical accounts remain a chilling testament to the human psyche's complexities.

Andrew McMahon [55:37]: "And the devil."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Andrew McMahon [02:35]: "Writing songs became my whole... it was a way to process my world."
• Andrew McMahon [11:03]: "I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me... how do I really talk about what's relevant to me now and put that in a pop song."
• Andrew McMahon [23:35]: "It was like... the corridor drama... but it didn't fit right."
• Ash [27:58]: "He's the patron saint of dance. Let's go with that."
• Andrew McMahon [31:22]: "It's a trauma reaction. Yeah, yeah."
• Andrew McMahon [43:05]: "She just started dancing."
• John Waller [53:11]: "There's considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues... were classic instances of mass psychogenic illness."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 650 of Morbid offers a captivating exploration of the Plagues of Hysteria, blending historical accounts with modern psychological interpretations. Andrew McMahon's participation adds a unique perspective, linking the emotional catharsis of songwriting with the communal stresses that may have fueled these bizarre historical events. Whether you're a history buff, a true crime enthusiast, or simply fascinated by the macabre, this episode promises a deep and engaging dive into one of history's most enigmatic phenomena.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here.

[Elena]

Ready to share a little secret.

[Ash]

Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all access pass to our lighthearted nightmare.

[Elena]

So come join us on the dark.

[Ash]

Side and try Wondery today. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Andrew McMahon]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Hey weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Unknown]

I'm Elena.

[Andrew McMahon]

And I'm Andrew.

[Ash]

And this is a special episode of Morbid everybody. It's special.

[Unknown]

We have a guest.

[Ash]

We do. Yay McMahon on the show. You might know him from one of his several bands. We've got something. Corporate Jack's mannequin or Andrew McMahon in the wilderness.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's me.

[Ash]

Welcome.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

[Unknown]

Thanks for all of those.

[Andrew McMahon]

Thanks for having me.

[Ash]

Yeah, of course.

[Unknown]

Thanks for being in the studio.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's like such a cool place to be. I'm, I'm, I'm honored.

[Ash]

So are we. So, getting into the questions, I did read that you are somewhat of a child prodigy when it came to the Piano. What drew you to the piano so young?

[Andrew McMahon]

I mean, it's gonna get heavy really quick. No, I, I had a, we had, like, a loss in our family. My, My uncle passed away. And right around that same time, I had a friend's dad teach me how to play a Jerry Lee Lewis song on the piano. And I'd never, I mean, I, I had piano lessons a little bit as a kid, but I took the chord that he taught me and all of a sudden just started writing songs. And that was kind of how I processed my grief from losing my uncle. And that was it for me. I was like, this is the thing. Like, writing songs became my, my whole. Like, I would come home from school and I would just sit at the piano until I was told I had to go to sleep or do something for school or whatever. I love that. And it's been, it's been that way ever since.

[Unknown]

That's when you know it's meant to be. When it's something that, like, heals apart, you know?

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. I just started trying to learn. I got like, a keyboard. It's hard.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I mean, I think when you're, I think when you're nine, it's like a whole other. Right.

[Unknown]

Everything's so much easier.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, you have that whole sort of neuroplasticity or whatever. And, and, and I really liked it. Right. So it wasn't like, I didn't start going to piano lessons until like, maybe a year or two after that. And, and so for me, it was just like, constant discovery. And, and like you said, it was like, it was a way to process my world, you know? So I just, I, I, I think I blew past the, it's hard part until I got into, like, having to study classical music. And then it was like, this sucks. Yeah.

[Ash]

That's when it gets, like, real hard.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was, I wasn't a great student, but I, I sort of did what I had to to learn how to navigate the piano and, and read and do all that and do all that stuff. But it was always just like a safe haven for me.

[Unknown]

And it worked out. Yeah, I think we're all pretty thankful for that.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's been the only real job I've had to have my whole life. Which is, which is, is a really a huge gift. I mean, I'm always wondering when the bottom will drop, but, but, but, but. Yeah. So far, so good.

[Ash]

Yeah. Well, you've been making music since, like, 1998. Yeah, well, I mean, since you were a kid, but officially yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

So Something Corporate, which was like my sort of official second high school band, we throughout my like, you know, junior senior of high school kind of continued to get bigger and I sort of skipped college and focused on that and miraculously we got signed when I was 18. That's incredible. And that was sort of the beginning of all of it. So I, you know, Something Corporate did really well and we toured a ton and put out records. And then, you know, I've kind of hopped from like about every 10 years or so start a new project. Cause I, I'm restless, I guess you could say. And yeah, it's been a journey for sure. And I've had good fans who are willing to follow me through multiple name changes.

[Unknown]

Here we are. Yeah, Something Corporate was my thing in high school. Like really? Oh yeah, I love that.

[Ash]

16 year old Elena.

[Unknown]

Yeah, 16 year old Elena was like at every show. Every single show.

[Andrew McMahon]

I think that's how we connected was. Cause I started having fans message me on Instagram and they're like, you got, you got mentioned on the Morbid podcast.

[Ash]

And so funny to me.

[Andrew McMahon]

The first one I was like, oh, that's cool. And then I saw another, you know, another few roll through and then I.

[Ash]

Was like, who are these people?

[Andrew McMahon]

I'm like, we should reach out to these women. They keep talking about us and it seems like they're pretty popular. And then we met at the, what was it? Roadrunner show.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was at the Roadrunner show.

[Andrew McMahon]

On something Corporate reunion. Yep.

[Ash]

Thanks to Connor.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Ash]

Shout out Connor forever.

[Andrew McMahon]

Connor's a good man. He's a very good man. Yeah. My tour manager. You. He's our Gen Z holding down the hell.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, we, we, we, we like to, I, I like to bring young, young bucks into the mix and, and bring them up. That's always been sort of a part of our mission. And Connor rose the ranks from, from content to now. He's tour managing. He's tour managing.

[Unknown]

He's a good representation of Gen Z.

[Andrew McMahon]

He, he is, he is actually like representation. I'm, I'm a hu. I hate the whole kids these days philosophy. I, I really like it. To me, I feel like it's such a, it's such a sign of you're not actually paying attention. And I've had, I've had my whole perception of the Gen Z universe reshaped by Connor and his, his people and people we've brought into our camp. I love that these guys are actually hard workers and super fun and very fashionable.

[Unknown]

They are, yeah. Very fashionable.

[Andrew McMahon]

I'm a huge fan.

[Ash]

You gotta meet the right Gen Zs. I'm a zillennial, so I like on the Cuffs. I like to say I'm a millennial because, you know, Gen Z gets a lot of hate.

[Andrew McMahon]

What's funny is, like, I always rejected the fact that I was a millennial because I graduated in 2000 and we didn't have like a qualification. We were just sort of in this nether group between Gen X and whatever was coming next. And then I think by the time I was 30, then they started calling us millennials. And I was like, I denounce this. Yeah. I don't like this qualification. Their designation.

[Unknown]

I, I worked at Hollywood Video.

[Andrew McMahon]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

In high school. Like RIP Video stores, guys.

[Ash]

That's where you could rent movies.

[Unknown]

That was where you could rent VHS tapes and also DVDs.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

My favorite job ever. And I used to make like, we would be able to pick what could be on the screen and I would make everybody play this one dvd and it was like, Drive Thru Records.

[Andrew McMahon]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

And I would make them play it just so we could have the something Corporate performance.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's amazing.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Unknown]

Like, over and over.

[Andrew McMahon]

I had. Many of my friends were Blockbust Video employees and we used to go hang out at Blockbuster on the weekends because they would just, you know, they'd smoke weed in the back and like, be, you know, like, we're proper degenerate Blockbuster employees. Managerial staff. And, and yes, I do. I miss the Blockbuster vibe. Yeah, it's a good vibe.

[Ash]

One thing I wish I experienced, I remember Blockbuster like a little bit from being like five and six.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Beyond that.

[Andrew McMahon]

No, I mean, the truth is the new model is working better. There were oftentimes there were no videos available.

[Elena]

Very true.

[Andrew McMahon]

But. But it was. Was a fun sort of environment.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a cozy vibe. Well, going back to the music, how would you say your relationship with music has kind of changed and evolved throughout all the years that you've been doing it?

[Andrew McMahon]

I mean, look, I think, you know, you're an author, so, you know, it's like as you, you, you start by writing because it's just like a reflex and it's, and it's this exploratory thing. And I think that the biggest shift is that you have to continue to find ways to explore and, and make it fresh and make it exciting. So, like, I've, I've changed processes over the years. Right. You know, I think when some of that like, oh, I just have to be sitting at the piano all day. And like, now I have a family, and I spent a lot of time on the road, so I do, you know, I do little tricks to sort of re. Engage myself in the writing process. I'll write with other people that I'm really excited about. I. I try and always, like, surround myself with writers that are both older and younger than me, you know, just so I can, you know, Like, I love having people in the room that are still in that phase of writing where they're, like, hyper creative and just super hungry, and it keeps me hungry. So I think that's change. And then what you write about changes. Right. So as you get to certain stages of life and the questions are changing about what is relevant or what's important to you, you have to find new ways in to discuss those things. I feel like changing projects for me is like. Has been a part of that. Right. So it's like something corporate was like, very much about, you know, all of the things that you encounter in, like, high school and. And coming of age. Yeah, it's a lot of makeups and breakups and. And I. I think our industry, like, the music business is fueled on a lot of that. And as somebody who wants to write and perform and do this till the day I die, you know, I've had to sort of shift my thinking. You know, a lot of Jack's Mannequin was a. I got sick when I was in the middle of that project, so I had cancer, and I was a cancer survivor. I was like, how do you write about that? You know, and. And. And then, you know, and then sort of shifting into this next phase. A lot of it's been about keeping my edge while maintaining a family and. And a life and. And, you know, how to look after my kid and those questions that come with fatherhood and trying to stay creative, you know, So I think those are. Are sort of, you know, big parts of how I shift and try and stay creative.

[Ash]

I love that because you can look back on every stage of your life and there's a song for it or an album for it.

[Unknown]

Really?

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, totally. And I think too, like, I've tried really hard because a lot of my fans have grown up with me. Like, rather than making the mistake, I think a lot of people do as they get older in their artistic processes or trying to sort of recreate their. Their youth and still sing about those things. And I think it's. The challenge for me is like, how do I really talk about what's relevant to Me now and put that in a pop song, you know, and that can be tricky. Yeah, but. But I think if you strike on something that's universal, it applies backwards and forwards. And you know, I want people who've been with me for a really long time to be like, oh, he's talking to an experience that I'm having right now because we're a similar age and going through similar things in life. But also if I do it well, you know, you could be 15 and pick up that record and it will land. You know, most of the artists I was listening to when I was 15 were much older than I was and somehow those songs were still connecting.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah, definitely.

[Unknown]

Yeah. That's like what you just said. Like people who've listened to you have grown up with you now. So like, it's funny because when we went to the something corporate concert where we met, it was funny to look around and see like I was like, oh, it's just like a bunch of moms and dads being like, just like transporting back into like something corporate days.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But it's fun because it's like we've been able to relate to you in the music the entire way through. And you can feel like the shifts, but they're so smooth because like you're going like we're going into that phase. So we kind of go in there together. Yeah. So it's just been really nice. Like even like last night we were talking about Bluey and I was like, wow, we're just parents now together. It's wild.

[Andrew McMahon]

You know, I think it's like a task, but I think it's a worthy one. And I'm like, I'm. I'm super reverent of the fact that there are people who I've been seeing at shows since they were, you know, high school, middle aged kids coming out to see me when I was not much older than them. I was 18 or 19, but it felt like a world apart. Right. When you're sort of like grown and then you have like a kid in the audience now, you know, now we're sort of orbiting the same life trajectories. And I really like, I want to make music for those people who have been in those rooms. And I want them to have songs that, that they can connect to at this stage of wherever they're at.

[Unknown]

You're killing it. Well, thank you.

[Andrew McMahon]

I try really hard and it trickles.

[Ash]

Down because there was like three generations of us at that show because Elena, me and my little cousin. So it's like all. I started listening to you when I was like six.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then because I was like, you're listening.

[Ash]

My cousin's like, three singing like, I woke up in a car. So it does trickle down.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. Well, like, the shows I went to when I was, you know, the first shows I was going to, a lot of them were bands my. My brothers and sisters, three of them are. Are 10, 12 years older than I am. And, you know, I went to CM when I was, you know, when I was in the seventh grade or whatever and, you know, and I became a huge Tom Petty fan. And, like, going to those shows, seeing the young people that are picking, were picking up, you know, heartbreakers to me, to my people, my brothers and sisters, ages and older. You know, in. In a dream world, that's really what you want. You want to see people across generations connecting to what you do. And that's sort of the fight I'm in every day is just to sort of make sure that, you know, it spreads to as many people across generations as possible.

[Unknown]

My youngest is obsessed with Happy. I love that she was like, wait a second. He sings Happy. Yep. And she's five. So you're hitting all ages.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's the deal. Yeah.

[Ash]

That's what we want.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, finally to transition us into, like, our world of morbid and macabre. You have a song with your band, something corporate called Me and the Moon.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yes.

[Ash]

It's a little more eerie and haunting. It's like, not the typical style for you. So tell us a little bit about where the idea for that song came from, like how it came to be.

[Andrew McMahon]

We'll see, like, when we. We put out the first something for record. And I think a lot of that music was really reflective of sort of our high school, post high school journey, because a lot of those songs were written in that time. And that was sort of the first record we went out and toured the world with and got it noticed for. And then, you know, by that point that I was coming back to write those songs for North. Yeah, I was just in a much different headspace and it was like I wanted to do something moodier and. And I. It was like the first time I was living in Jordan Pundit from Newfound Glory. I was living in his guest room, you know, and. And it was sort of the first time I'd lived away from my parents and. And. And so I had all this freedom just to sit in a room and write all day. And I mean, I would be lying to say I wasn't like smoking a ton of weed at that point and just playing the piano and just trying to find new chords and new chord shapes and progressions. And I got to this sort of piano figure that plays under the verses of that song, which I was like, this is so cool. It felt like something really new for me. And the first words that showed up were, it was it's a good year for a murder.

[Unknown]

So good. Such a good opening line.

[Andrew McMahon]

I. I remember even in that moment being like, oh, this is gonna land pretty interesting.

[Unknown]

This is different.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. Like punk rock princess to let's Talk About Murder, you know, But I, I was just in love with it. And I. And it, it sort of wrote itself like the verses wrote itself. And it became about this sort of idea of like a suburban mother finally reaching her breaking point with her husband.

[Elena]

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[Ash]

Service or that one.

[Elena]

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[Andrew McMahon]

And you know, I grew up in a amazing house and by the time I was, you know, in high school, it was like a, you know, a lot like a house full of women. It was like my sister and my mom and me and you know, my mom never tried to kill my dad. So there's, there's, there's none of that. But I think I could relate to the angst of that just having been, you know, my mom and I were super close growing up and. And so it was like originally it was a courtroom drama. Like the chorus was like, was all about what happens after. I love that. The murder. And then I. It didn't fit right. And. And me and the band were on tour in. We were in Amsterdam, I think, or something like that or. No, maybe. Yeah, we were, we were. No, we were in Leeds and ended up meeting up with a couple of the drive thru bands and went on a very wild sort of psychedelic journey.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Andrew McMahon]

And I remember I was following the moon all night by myself through Leeds, England. That was like. I was certain it was calling me. I won't paint the details of what led me to that moment, but, but I remember just going like, I just want to go see where this moon is at. And I just followed it through the streets. It was you.

[Ash]

The moon.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. Until I ended up like locked in a, in a hotel bathroom. And I, I had this piece of paper and I just wrote, it's me and the moon. And I like, oh my God. And it was.

[Unknown]

That's amazing.

[Andrew McMahon]

The handwriting was, it was like cursive and just kind of like super. Writing the words was actually a part of the journey. And. And I woke up with that piece of paper, and I. And I ended up on a stage sound checking. And I finished the song on stage, and I was like. And just wrote the chorus to the rest of the song that day. And. And yeah, it's been one of my favorites forever. And the fact that fans followed us into that. That phase was such a huge thing because I was like, are they gonna hate me for taking this hard left turn into six, eight sort of murder mystery songs? Welcome. But, yeah, it was. That song was a. Was a journey from start to finish. And still, I think, like, is a high watermark for something. Corporate catalog.

[Ash]

Yes, definitely.

[Unknown]

I remember hearing that song for the first time and being. Excuse me.

[Andrew McMahon]

It was definitely a challenge to fans that. To be like, do you want to go here? And. And. But it gave me a lot of hope for the future, too, that it was like, okay, cool. I can. I can stretch out and. And people will take a chance and.

[Unknown]

Follow us if we'll go with you for murder.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

The sky's the limit. Like, you're good.

[Ash]

It's such a great song.

[Andrew McMahon]

Thank you so much.

[Unknown]

And I think now we can go into dancing plagues.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yes.

[Unknown]

You know, quite the transition because, you know, music, dancing. You do a lot of dancing on stage. I love part of the whole thing. So we're going to talk about dancing plagues, and we're also going to talk about a couple of nunneries that just had some stuff going on that I thought was pretty. Hysteria is kind of where we're going here.

[Andrew McMahon]

I was raised a Catholic, so I'm all for getting into the nuns. Let's do this.

[Unknown]

So this is. We're going to start way back. This was on Christmas Eve in 1021 CE.

[Ash]

Oh, wait, this is the be.

[Unknown]

This is where it begins. So this small German town called Kolbeekt. I looked up all these pronunciations, so don't come for me.

[Ash]

No, you always kill the pronunciations in a good way.

[Unknown]

Sometimes I kill it the other way, but. So 18 of the town's residents gathered outside of the church and started dancing. Just started dancing and carrying on with wild abandon. And the noise from these dancers made it impossible for the priest to deliver mass. So he went outside and he started to reprimand the group. And they were just seeming completely oblivious to him. Like, it wasn't like they were ignoring him. They just, like, didn't even know he was there. Just kept going. And rather than heed the priest's words, which, at that time People would heed that priest's words. They just continued dancing and clapping and leaping, and they were forming what would later be documented to be called a ring dance of sin.

[Ash]

Oh, obsessed.

[Unknown]

Which I kind of love.

[Andrew McMahon]

I want in.

[Unknown]

Where do I sign up for the ring dance of sin? So according to the legend, the priest, who was very angry, very incensed about the interruption and disrespect, quite frankly, cursed them all to dance for the entire year, and none of them were able to regain control of their bodies until the following Christmas.

[Ash]

With a priest did this, which I.

[Unknown]

Didn'T realize priests could curse people.

[Andrew McMahon]

So he insisted that they keep going because they had even started.

[Unknown]

He was like, oh, you want to dance? You're gonna dance yourself Christmas?

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Wow. And they did. And by the time the curse was ended, the group was exhausted and reportedly fell into a deep sleep. And a lot of them never woke up from that deep sleep.

[Ash]

So some of them died.

[Unknown]

So he just straight up killed some of them.

[Andrew McMahon]

Okay, priest, can I ask practical questions about food and.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

And bathroom?

[Unknown]

None of that. None of that. In fact, many of these dancing plagues, food, bathroom breaks, like, sleep don't happen.

[Ash]

Not.

[Unknown]

They just dance through it, and that's how most of them die.

[Andrew McMahon]

Wow.

[Unknown]

So they just, like there's deaths that come out of these.

[Ash]

Are they just, like, peeing all over themselves?

[Unknown]

Probably. It's. Probably. It's reckless. Like, whatever is happening there is a lot.

[Andrew McMahon]

So some people live for a year doing this.

[Unknown]

I guess so. Or they would join. I think maybe others would join. So given, you know, how old this story is, obviously, I'm sure there's been some embellishments.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But according to historian John Waller, there was nothing in the story that medieval people found hard to believe.

[Ash]

To be quite honest, they're like, yeah, whatever it was. Yeah.

[Unknown]

People probably would dance themselves for a year to death. Because it was a society that was very accustomed to assigning supernatural explanations to literally anything they couldn't understand. So the idea of such crazy behavior being the result of a curse from a holy man was like, yeah, obviously. Yeah, that's what happened. And as he points out, plenty of sources indicate that this obscure chronicler may have embellished a real event. So there was truth to this. Basically, the details might have been a little bit exaggerated, but that, like, manic and, like, uncontrollable dance that they were doing probably happened because it has happened.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So this was kind of the beginning of, like, dancing plagues being documented. Now, 200 years later in a German town of Erfurt looked it up. A similarly crazy and bizarre outbreak of dancing mania broke out in 1247. So this time, at least 200 people are said to have gathered on a bridge.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Unknown]

And it was over the Moselle river in Maastricht where they danced until the bridge collapsed.

[Ash]

Stop it.

[Unknown]

And all of them died.

[Ash]

Said rocket to the wheels fall off.

[Unknown]

They did. And then they died.

[Ash]

And then that was it.

[Unknown]

Bridge collapsed. Everyone died. That was it. And then there's. So that happened.

[Andrew McMahon]

How long were they up there for? Does it say?

[Unknown]

It doesn't say how long, but I feel like it probably wasn't that long because 200 people on a bridge. I don't think the structural integrity of Bridges in 1247 was, like, something of note.

[Ash]

Not quite the same as.

[Unknown]

I'm assuming they all just went down. But there is a second version of this story, so there is, like a little wiggle room. Okay, so this one. In this version of the story, the same thing happened, except everyone didn't die. People died, but there were survivors. And people say that some of those survivors were taken to a nearby chapel where they kept dancing. And this nearby chapel was dedicated to Saint Vitus, which. Or Vitus, excuse me, where these people receive treatment for their quote, unquote mania. And many of them were restored to full health. So they said they went to the specific chapel and that's what cured them.

[Ash]

And they never danced again.

[Unknown]

Never danced again.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's a flash mob gone wrong.

[Unknown]

Flash mob gone horribly wrong. And then a chapel was able to heal any of the survivors. And St. Vitus comes up a few times.

[Andrew McMahon]

What's St. Vitus the saint of?

[Unknown]

Apparently he's like, he has something to do with dance. Like he has something to do with this. And he is able to. He gets brought up a lot because the dancing madness actually gets translated into being called Saint Vitus Dance.

[Andrew McMahon]

Oh, nice.

[Unknown]

What is he the. Is he a patron saint of anything?

[Ash]

Hold on, let's, like, wait a second.

[Unknown]

I'm excited for this because he comes up a lot.

[Andrew McMahon]

The patron saint of state, of standing still, of chilling.

[Unknown]

Of chilling.

[Ash]

So his name is sometimes rendered Guy or Guido. Was a Christian. A Christian martyr. I know from Sicily. I know his surviving hagiography, obviously. Yeah. That is pure legend. Blah, blah, blah. I don't know if he's a patron saint.

[Unknown]

He's the patron saint of dance. Let's. I think we can all agree.

[Andrew McMahon]

Let's go with that.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly.

[Andrew McMahon]

You'll take.

[Ash]

Yeah, it is. Yeah. It has also led to Vitus Being considered the patron saint of dancers and entertainers in general. He is also said to protect against lightning strikes, animal attacks, and oversleeping.

[Unknown]

That's sick of him. Yeah, I appreciate that.

[Ash]

He does not guide me. I'm oversleeping all the time.

[Andrew McMahon]

He didn't help the first group that. That slept until they died.

[Unknown]

Help them now. It's from this, like, second telling of that story that the affliction got the name Koros mania, which is Greek, and it translates to dancing madness. And that's. And now it's more well known as St. Vitus Dance. So he gets to. He gets to be named in the affliction.

[Ash]

That's fun.

[Unknown]

Now, over time, the terminology would change a little bit, but the behavior would be end. Would end up being called coriac, which is an actual disorder. And it's incorrectly that like, referred to as that. Because this disorder, chorea, is a disorder of the central nervous system that causes, like, irregular, like, brief jerking moment, like movements. But it's not dancing.

[Ash]

They meant choreo.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's just. They meant choreo. And then choreo is not that.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's not hanging with your homies on a bridge.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Dancing until it falls down.

[Unknown]

So if you ever hear.

[Ash]

So having the time of your life.

[Unknown]

You correct them if you ever hear them saying it. Okay. I'm sure it comes a lot.

[Andrew McMahon]

All the time. It's very common in my.

[Unknown]

Up on the road a lot. So these two early examples were contained to Germany, but a similar form of hysteria that kind of had, like, similar, you know, symptoms to. It was known as tarantism.

[Andrew McMahon]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And it emerged in the 13th century in Italy. And according to Robert Bartholomew, which I am obsessed with the name Bartholomew. Same.

[Ash]

I love it a lot.

[Unknown]

Why isn't it used anymore? I don't know. He said people asleep or awake would suddenly jump up, feeling an acute pain, like the sting of a bee. Some saw the spider, others did not. But they knew that it must be from the tarantula, like capital T. The spider. The spider.

[Ash]

Okay. Not the spider.

[Unknown]

Nope. The spider.

[Andrew McMahon]

The only spider.

[Ash]

The only spider.

[Unknown]

They ran out of the house, into the street, to the marketplace, dancing in great excitement. Soon they were joined. Who, like them, had been bitten or by people who had been stung in previous years. For the disease was never quite cured. The poison remained in the body and reactivated every year in the heat of the summer.

[Andrew McMahon]

What I. I love. I love.

[Ash]

This is amazing.

[Andrew McMahon]

I wish. I wish this still happened.

[Unknown]

I feel like it probably does. Maybe we just don't make it happen. Let's make it. Flash mobs are actually the. This.

[Ash]

Yeah, pretty much.

[Andrew McMahon]

They've all been bitten.

[Unknown]

They have. By the spice crater. And it happens in the heat of. I like that. It, like, reactivates in the heat of the summer. Yeah, like summer.

[Ash]

We're gonna get crazy. Let's party.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Makes sense.

[Unknown]

And it's called tarantism, and it's most often girls and young women are afflicted, probably because they're like hysteria. Am I right?

[Ash]

I'm so random.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And that's when it got labeled hysteria. When they were like, oh, girls and young women get it. Yeah, hysteria. Like the dancing plagues. There was no identifiable cause, the tarantism, because, like, a tarantula bite doesn't cause this. You don't say so, like, there's no reason for this. But they just believed it to be like a mass, like, psychogenic illness, which is even scarier.

[Ash]

Yeah, a little bit.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's probably just a reaction to the times that's honest.

[Unknown]

Probably bored in the end. That kind of is what it feels like.

[Ash]

It is.

[Andrew McMahon]

We feel depressed. Now it's time to wild out.

[Ash]

It's like a better version of the witch trials.

[Unknown]

Yeah, like a way better.

[Ash]

A much better version.

[Unknown]

The way better.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So the early instances of the dancing plagues were pretty limited in size and scope, and they were, again, like, limited to specific locations. But then came 1374, y'all. An outbreak of dancing mania started in a German city of Aiken, I believe it is, and it eventually spread to other cities outside of Germany. So it's happening dancing everywhere.

[Andrew McMahon]

Were they all happening at the same time? Was it like.

[Unknown]

Like some of them were. And then some of them would start at the end of the next one, and it was just like a. Yeah, like a wave in the stadium. The outbreak of 1374, sometimes referred to as St. John's Dance, began like the others. So it was like a small group forming a circle in the town square, starting to dance with each other. But the thing that keeps happening with these is they start to dance and it's like, fine. And then they get more frenzied, and it just, like, loses all control. And that's what they lose control of their senses. They don't care who's near them. They're, like, whirling around, like, looking like they're in, like, a state of just, like, ecstasy. Like, it's like a rape. Yeah, like a straight up rave.

[Andrew McMahon]

I was at a show, like, last year. It feels similar.

[Ash]

You're like, I had this.

[Unknown]

That was it. Some would dance for hours. Some would dance for days at a time, not stopping, not stopping to eat, drink, sleep, piss, anything.

[Ash]

Damn not. So there's the.

[Unknown]

There it is.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, there we go.

[Unknown]

And when they did finally stop, the dancers all spoke of some undeniable compulsion to dance. And then they would complain of extreme oppression and groaned as if in the agonies of death.

[Ash]

What?

[Unknown]

And then they would groan until they were swathed in clothes bound tightly around their waists.

[Ash]

What? Well, they're. I feel like they probably were aching from dancing.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Ever take a Zumba class? It's a lot. It is.

[Unknown]

You know, you need one of those little roller ball things. Yeah, just get it all out. Or that little machine we have that can like. Like get a tight muscle out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a short time later, the dancer's pain would subside because they would get the rollerball or do whatever they needed.

[Ash]

To do when they finished Zumba.

[Unknown]

And they remained pain free until the next compulsion came over them. And then it would keep happening. Like they would go through periods of time where they were fine and then they just start dancing a fool again.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Andrew McMahon]

Did it. Was there. Did they say they enjoyed the dancing when they were doing it? Or was it.

[Unknown]

I think they were in like a trance. I don't think they could even remember.

[Ash]

They didn't know.

[Unknown]

They just felt the pain afterwards.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Unknown]

Which sucks.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But within a few weeks, that plague, the St. John's dance plague had spread to Liege, Utrecht and Tongres.

[Ash]

Those places.

[Unknown]

Those places. And then further out to towns in Belgium and the Netherlands.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Unknown]

And according to one account, they danced together ceaselessly for hours or days. And in wild delirium, the dancers collapsed and fell to the ground, exhausted, groaning and sighing as if in the agonies of death. And many later claimed that they had seen. This is literally my favorite thing I've ever heard, by the way. Many of them claimed that they had seen the walls of heaven split open and that Jesus and the Virgin Mary had appeared before them.

[Ash]

Were they dancing? Were Jesus and Mary dancing?

[Andrew McMahon]

No. That would be fun.

[Ash]

That I would love.

[Unknown]

I cannot say day.

[Elena]

You know that feeling when you're at the grocery store and you know you're prioritizing your health, you're reading the nutrition labels, but you're going down the grocery store aisles trying to understand what the heck they're telling you, and they're just beyond confusing. Well, that is why I love Thrive Market. Thrive Market is my go to online grocery store for getting all my Healthy essentials delivered and I don't even have to leave my couch. I know about you, but I want to be able to pronounce the ingredients on my grocery labels. I am currently obsessed with the Goodles Mac and cheese. The Goodles noodles are so good. They're super high protein and I made like a healthy girl hamburger helper the other night with those Goodles noodles and I will not shut up about it.

[Ash]

They also have so many on site.

[Elena]

Filters that make it simple to shop by your needs. Whether it's gluten free snacks, high protein meals or non toxic cleaning products. I personally filtered for high protein options, you know, like Goodles. But I also stocked up on Primal Kitchen Sausages. Oh those CTE chips. I freaking love those. They're such a timesaver. Ready to make the switch? You should be. Go to thrive market.commorbid for 30% off your first order plus a free $60 gift. That's T H R I V E market.commorbid thrive market.commorbid have you ever grown tired of searching for your favorite movies and TV shows across numerous streaming accounts? It's so frustrating to have all your favorite shows live across multiple logins and apps. I'm like trying to watch one show. I'm like, wait, what's my login here? On Prime Video, though, you can add over 100 subscriptions. Like Macs, Apple TV plus and Paramount plus all in one app. Experience the convenience of having your favorite subscriptions in your Prime Video account with one login and one password. There's a hundred more premium and specialty subscriptions to unlock a world of movies, TV and sports all in one app. App super duper easy to not have to log in to like 45 different streaming services. Check out subscriptions on Prime Video.

[Unknown]

But the walls of heaven split open during this dancing.

[Ash]

You just have to dance your way into heaven.

[Unknown]

That's all.

[Andrew McMahon]

I feel like that's actually probably true. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that's. It seems like a reaction to whatever their, whatever their religious.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

They're like, they're like, okay, we have to chill, but if we just go freak out. Hell yeah, we can, we can claim. Yeah, we're, we're on our. We're seeing heaven.

[Ash]

They're like, God, it's a religious path we're following.

[Unknown]

Like Jesus and Mary are over here.

[Ash]

Like they came in like, let's go.

[Unknown]

They're joining this, the ring of sin. Whatever.

[Andrew McMahon]

The priest joined in at that point. They're like, is this how we do it?

[Ash]

That's a fun master.

[Unknown]

Jesus and Mary are here, you say? So for the next hundred years, people in Germany and surrounding countries would periodically fall into these trances and manias.

[Ash]

100 years?

[Unknown]

Yeah. In 1491. This is literally my favorite thing ever, by the way. In 1491, several residents of a nunnery. Here we go. In the Habsburg Neverlands, were overcome with the compulsion to dance. But this time it wasn't just dancing. So there were some that just, like, were getting their groove on. And then they would also be accompanied by instances of none. Hold on to your habits.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Unknown]

They would climb trees and behave like cats.

[Ash]

What?

[Unknown]

And they would all meow together.

[Andrew McMahon]

Rad. I love this.

[Unknown]

I hate that this wasn't on film.

[Ash]

Climbing up the trees in a full.

[Unknown]

Habit, like, that's all I'm thinking of is like full nun gear, just like lifted up in a tree.

[Ash]

Just be like, where?

[Unknown]

I love it. Also in this delirium, it gets. It gets racy because they would sexually proposition the priest. Good.

[Ash]

Iconic.

[Unknown]

And then it got better because the priests were like, no, no. And they would call exorcists to be like, clearly this demon's afoot. And when the exorcists would come, the nuns would sexually proposition the exorcist. I'm obsessed with it. I don't know why. I love.

[Ash]

Let them live.

[Unknown]

Let them live. Yeah, like. And like the people in 11th century Germany, the nun's affliction was believed to be a curse obviously brought by St. Vitus. And it was apparently supposed to be in response to the supposed moral laxity and split from the church of the period.

[Andrew McMahon]

So they were like, now we. Now we've got our answer.

[Unknown]

Here it comes. So that's what that. And I guess other supernatural suspects in the case that were brought up were St. John the Baptist demons as a whole. Of course, any demon will do the hierarchy of demons and Satan himself.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Which apparently some of the nuns, while they were sexually propositioning the priests and the exorcists and not getting any, they were getting pushback. They were like, well, that's fine because I have also Satan. So, like, they were literally being like.

[Andrew McMahon]

The nuns would say that.

[Unknown]

Yeah, they were literally. I don't. Probably not. Like, they probably. Maybe they've had relations with the devil.

[Andrew McMahon]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Basically. Yeah. So they were claiming it. Like, let's go, girls.

[Andrew McMahon]

When it was over, were they allowed to stay in the nunnery or were they. Were they exiled?

[Unknown]

That's a great question. I don't. I don't think they Were exiled.

[Andrew McMahon]

Okay.

[Unknown]

But perhaps they were. I feel like when you said, you the devil, I feel like that's your time to step out.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I don't think they're gonna find a.

[Ash]

New path in life.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I don't think you get, like, this is one strike.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Kind of thing. Now, in the 15th century, in German, this is another nunnery, because this is awesome. One nun started biting the others.

[Ash]

Was she dancing first or she just.

[Unknown]

No dancing involved.

[Andrew McMahon]

Was she one of the cat nuns?

[Unknown]

She was not one of the cat nuns. This is a different nunnery.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So she starts biting the other nuns. And then they were all like, wow, that sucks. Like, don't do that.

[Ash]

And then after a while. Direct quote.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

They're like, wow. Direct quote on the record. That sucks. Stop doing that. And then one of them was like, well, I guess I'll just bite you back. Which, like, I get. Like, if she's still biting you, don't bite me. Bite her back. And one of them bit her back. And then they all started biting each other. And then they were just rapidly biting you. Like, all of them just started biting each other. Biting the priests again. They brought the priests.

[Ash]

This is not a sanitary time. It's never a good time to bite anybody, but that's bad.

[Andrew McMahon]

Are they still dancing while they're biting? That's the question.

[Unknown]

I feel like dancing may not have been a part of this one. It might have just been a biting, biting scenario. But it would be really funny to think of them dancing and biting.

[Ash]

Get their groove on just great.

[Elena]

And every once in a while, the.

[Unknown]

Beat drops and they bite someone. Yeah. So then word spread about this affliction because people were like, whoa, have you heard of this?

[Ash]

These nuns go crazy.

[Unknown]

And the affliction started spreading.

[Andrew McMahon]

The biting one.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Now the biting one's going.

[Ash]

We got a lot going on, apparently.

[Unknown]

Nunneries in Saxenburg and Brandenburg, you know, Holland, now even Rome.

[Ash]

Whoa.

[Unknown]

All biting each other and biting the priests and meowing and meowing. There was meowing as well.

[Ash]

Awesome.

[Unknown]

And it only stopped. And this is literally documented. It says it only stopped because they got exhausted.

[Ash]

Exhausted of biting each other.

[Unknown]

Just got tired.

[Andrew McMahon]

At some point, you're gonna get tired.

[Unknown]

I mean, tired now.

[Ash]

I wonder how long.

[Unknown]

I know. How long can you bite someone?

[Ash]

I don't know.

[Unknown]

Write in. Let us know.

[Ash]

Morpetpodcastmail.com let us know.

[Andrew McMahon]

Wouldn't it be great if after this airs, these plagues begin spreading all over again?

[Unknown]

Imagine we're responsible now, by far the most notorious of the dancing plagues occurred in Strasbourg, France, in July 1518. This is the one that a lot of people know about.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Unknown]

The event began pretty innocuously. It was just a single older woman just going into the streets, into the city center. Her name was Frau Trofea. Yeah, I think is what. Say it. That's how I say it. She's walked out, and she was like, let's do this. And she just started dancing.

[Ash]

Said, let's dance.

[Unknown]

Let's go. Yes. She David Bowie before hell. Yeah. That's where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing plank, A nunnery of dancing.

[Ash]

Yeah, A dancing plank in a nunnery canon.

[Unknown]

That is where David Bowie came from. He came from a dancing pig. It was frank. So by mid August, and she wouldn't stop, of course, because that's how she had a plague. By mid August, hundreds of people had joined her in the town square. Again, a fosh mob, all of them uncontrollable. And like the previous ones, the dancers in Strasbourg never stopped to eat, never stopped to drink, sleep, nothing. Not long after, the mania began, quote, as many as 15 people a day dropped dead.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. What a way to go out, though.

[Andrew McMahon]

I mean, it seemed like. I mean, there are a lot of ways you could die back then, but it seems like dancing would have been one of the better ones.

[Unknown]

It's like real plague or dancing plague. Yeah, I'm picking dancing plague.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And they just kept going. So people would be dropping dead and they were still dancing. It's not like they stopped and were like, pause, like, let's get this one out. Nope, they just dance, danced, people dropping.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And unlike many of the earlier dancing plagues, which were recounted a lot, like, they kind of change over time, like folklore. This one, this particular one in 1518 was very well documented. Like, it's a real event that is very documented. It's appeared in everything from historical text, news accounts, church and medical documents. It's, like, in a lot of things. And according to many of these documents, the women who start or the woman who started the plague was brought to a church devoted to. Can we guess?

[Ash]

Saint Vincent.

[Unknown]

Saint Vitus. Vitus.

[Ash]

My bad.

[Unknown]

Maybe Saint Vincent. Who knows? A few days after she started dancing, they were brought. She was brought to a church devoted to him, and she was cured, apparently.

[Andrew McMahon]

Well, and this is while the other people are still dancing.

[Unknown]

They're still going.

[Andrew McMahon]

They started. They're like, you started this. We're gonna take care of you, but we're gonna let the others Go.

[Unknown]

Yeah, they're trying to chop the head off the snake and see if it all.

[Ash]

Maybe if she stops.

[Unknown]

Yeah, maybe if Frau stops. No, they all just kept going. Because in the days after that, others started joining. More even. Like, as soon as her absence was felt, they were like, we need to beef this up. Let's dance for her. So in order to curtail the mania, the city forbade musicians to perform publicly.

[Ash]

Oh, boo.

[Unknown]

Which, like, that sucks. Lame.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Kind of a killjoy. And eventually started taking the dancers one by one to the St. Vitus Church to get treatment. And no matter how quickly they removed the dancers off the streets to St. Vitus's Church, there they were just replaced by new dancers. People would just show up.

[Ash]

It's like, one leaves five more coffee.

[Unknown]

They had alternates, see, they had to.

[Andrew McMahon]

Cancel the musicians because they're like, this is easy for us. We could just go and. We already have an audience.

[Unknown]

Hell, yeah, let's go. I know. They were like, we can really get big here.

[Andrew McMahon]

This is our spot.

[Unknown]

They're, like, running around the dancers being like, listen to my demo. Like, get a record deal out here now. In the decades and centuries that followed this dancing plagues continued across Europe, with significant events occurring in the 16th and 17th centuries in Switzerland and Italy. And there hasn't been, like, a really documented case of dancing mania in a lot of centuries. But tarantism, which is, like, thought to be kind of similar, has been documented in Italy as recently as the 1950s. Oh. So.

[Andrew McMahon]

So remind me, Tarantism. It isn't dancing, but it's just sort of dancing. It is. Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it is kind of dancing, but it's like, a little different because they claim it's from a spider.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Like, you get bit by a tarantula, which. I didn't even know they had tarantulas in Italy. That was news to me.

[Ash]

I don't think I knew that either.

[Unknown]

I don't know where I thought tarantulas were. Australia, I think.

[Andrew McMahon]

Everything, period, I can attest to Joshua Tree.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God, they're there, too.

[Andrew McMahon]

There was actually the last Jackson mannequin record. We almost named Tarantula Mating Season because we. Because we. That'd be great because we actually. We rented a house in Joshua Tree during tarantula mating season, and they were everywhere.

[Ash]

That's so upsetting.

[Andrew McMahon]

And I don't. I mean, I don't care for spiders, but big ones, I care for less.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

So if you ever want to go get some tarantism, I recommend Joshua Tree. Around October, November, Yellow page.

[Unknown]

So they. Were they, like, in the house?

[Andrew McMahon]

There's. I wish I could find this video because there's a. There's a video of me and two of my bandmates running around the house screaming in, like, a high pitch.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Like trying to chase a tarantula out of it.

[Ash]

How big?

[Andrew McMahon]

I mean, bigger than my hand.

[Unknown]

No.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're huge. Yeah.

[Ash]

No, I just start crying and never stop.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

That's the thing. I don't cry easily.

[Ash]

No, you don't.

[Unknown]

I would start sobbing uncontrollably if I saw a tarantula.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

100.

[Unknown]

In my house. I'd never sleep in there again.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's my understanding they're not that, like. I don't know that the big ones are that bad.

[Unknown]

No, I don't think they really do much.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, but. But they.

[Unknown]

They don't just exist.

[Andrew McMahon]

They don't look. They don't look like any. Anything you want to spend time with.

[Unknown]

It's unfortunate for them.

[Ash]

I know. I feel like up close, aren't they really cute? Like their faces.

[Unknown]

Their faces are kind of cute.

[Andrew McMahon]

I never found them cute.

[Ash]

He said, actually, no, not my thing.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's in. In Australia, the huntsman spiders. My TikTok has figured out that I hate them, but that I will watch a whole video about one. So it just keeps giving me huntsman spider videos. And apparently you can hear Huntsmans walking down the hall.

[Ash]

They're so big.

[Unknown]

And I was like, that's all I need. No, I can't ever go to Australia.

[Andrew McMahon]

Not for me, ever.

[Unknown]

And people have, like, house huntsmans where they're just like, oh, that's just like, Leroy, he just lives here. He takes care of the bugs. I'm like, who takes care of him, though? Like, who?

[Ash]

He's lawless.

[Unknown]

He's really lawless. You get like. You're like, he takes care of, like, the mosquitoes. I'm like, I what?

[Ash]

I'd rather get bit by a mosquito than.

[Unknown]

But, like, I can't. You can't look like that.

[Ash]

No.

[Unknown]

Oh, I can't. I cannot. So, yeah, if you ever want that, go to Joshua Tree. Apparently during the mating season. Yeah, yeah. Now, people obviously blamed all these manias on either the spider or the devil. Devil and other supernatural. For all the dancing plagues. But lots of religious intervention was obviously brought in to treat them.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, exorcisms and the like. And in cases where the dancers. This is interesting, so. Because this is kind of very like. Like regional. So it's like they would do these things where it's like the, the treatments for it were very regional to what they were thinking or believing in that place. But when the dancers were foreign, like not, not of that area, the regional cultural differences would uphold the belief in demonic possession. So, like, it would always go back to demonic possession. But according to Robert Bartholomew, quote, the behavior of these dancers was described as strange because while exhibiting actions that were part of the Christian tradition, other elements were foreign. And he points to one account that says in their songs they uttered the names of devils never before heard of, of this strange sect.

[Ash]

How did you know what they were?

[Unknown]

So it's like, what, so what do you, how do you know they're devils too?

[Ash]

Maybe they're gods.

[Unknown]

Maybe they're angels.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Maybe they're friends.

[Andrew McMahon]

Well, if you're dancing, the devil has to be a part of it.

[Unknown]

Obviously, several devils have to be a part of it. Now, demonic possession was really the main suspect in the beginning, but in later plagues, the cause of the mania would often be attributed because of obviously we hear it in like the nunnery into it would be attributed to immorality and sin, particularly those in which the dances were overtly sexual or predominantly performed by women.

[Ash]

Women.

[Unknown]

One description read, they indulged in disgraceful immodesty for many women during the shameful dance and mock bridal singing, bared their bosoms while others of their own accord offered their virtue.

[Ash]

Oh, honey.

[Unknown]

So now these ladies are out there just being like, come and get it.

[Ash]

Screwing in the street treats. Show an ankle.

[Unknown]

Show an ankle.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. What is offered their virtue, though? What is the literally show an ankle. Yeah, they showed their shoulders.

[Unknown]

It's like, do you want to hold my hand and dance? And they're like, holy.

[Ash]

You gotta get inside, girl.

[Unknown]

You gotta to a nunnery where you can start meowing and propositioning priests.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[E]

Hey, listeners, this is Toni Collette and I'm so excited to introduce my new audio fiction series, Madame Ram. Madame Ram tells the incredible dramatized true story of Georgia Frontier. A former showgirl turned owner and heavy hitter in the boys club that is the NFL. When her sixth husband, Carol Rosenblum, dies, she shocks everyone by inheriting the L A Rams and taking the reins of a major sports franchise. Relying on astrological charts to make key decisions, she turns the NFL on its head and to this day remains one of the most beloved, despised and controversial figures in modern sports. Madame Ram, the woman who took on a man's world and won. Follow Madame Ram on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you're listening now. To be among the first to listen.

[Unknown]

Now, in later years, such as, you know, the dancing plague in Strasbourg, like the really famous one, the events were frequently kind of attributed to madness and hysteria as a whole, especially when they were begun again by girls or women. Historian John Waller says that there is considerable evidence that suggests the dancing plagues and the possession epidemics of Europe's nunneries were, in fact, classic instances of a very different phenomenon, mass psychogenic illness, which is way scarier to me.

[Ash]

Yeah, I don't love that.

[Unknown]

Like, if you're telling me the devil came and made me dance, I'm like, that's fun. Like, that happens. But, like, mass psychogenic illness. What is that?

[Andrew McMahon]

So what's the definition of psychogenic illness?

[Unknown]

So that's really, like, where the term mass hysteria comes from, where they can't pinpoint it. It's like in the Salem witch trials, they tried to blame it on, like, urgot poisoning, like, fungus on the. On the. Like, wheat, essentially. And that causes, you know, some kind of food poisoning that then leads to this, like, wild illness that everybody just.

[Andrew McMahon]

Like, psychosis, but you're hallucinating or something.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think it's like. It's like group think. Like, I think it's really just. You've seen instances of it where, like, you can get people to do insane things if you just make it a group effort.

[Ash]

And again, there wasn't a lot to do back then.

[Unknown]

There's. So why not dance? Yeah, there really wasn't. And in the majority of cases of dancing plagues, the years we were touching upon this before, the years immediately preceding the events, were usually pretty harsh. There was famine, natural disasters, social and political upheaval. In the case of Strasbourg, there was a little thing called the Black Plague that was right before it.

[Ash]

Right?

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So it can be viewed as kind of like an extreme reaction of, like, stress relief. Like a reaction to trauma.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's a trauma reaction. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

So we're all gonna start dancing soon.

[Unknown]

Like, you know, you can play the piano or you can start dancing uncontrollably for years at a time.

[Ash]

Yeah, yeah, Whatever works for you.

[Unknown]

Whatever. Whatever you feel. Report back, let us know. But that. Yeah, that's my little. My little. My dance into.

[Andrew McMahon]

And this is what the movie Footloose was based on.

[Unknown]

Exactly that time. That's the mic drop at the end match, friends. But, yeah. So if you start dancing in the streets, people might start joining you, and then you could all die together.

[Ash]

Yeah. So don't take it to a bridge.

[Unknown]

There's that. Yeah, yeah. Don't do that.

[Ash]

Avoid bridges.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. 12th century bridges are. Are not the place to go.

[Unknown]

No. Yeah, no.

[Andrew McMahon]

Okay, so my question is, did men ever participate in the dancing pigs? They did.

[Unknown]

Yeah, they did. That's what makes it so funny. They're like, well, women started it.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ash]

We just got blamed.

[Unknown]

Shut up.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I think. And I don't even think it was always women who started it. I think it was just like. There was a lot of women.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. Especially in that, you know, in that era. They were like, we'll blame the. We'll blame the ladies.

[Unknown]

If we're going to bring. It's either the devil ladies or a combination of both, so. And then in the nunneries, obviously, it was just. It was all ladies and the devil. And the devil.

[Andrew McMahon]

And the devil.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Of course they were having relations with the devil.

[Andrew McMahon]

Was there any documentation of whether or not they were having fun?

[Ash]

They were, yeah.

[Unknown]

It feels pretty awesome, to be honest.

[Ash]

They were sliving.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, especially in the nunnery scenario, I'm like, I think they just got bored. And then they were like, let's see if these. Let's see what we can get out of these priests.

[Ash]

Let's climb a tree.

[Unknown]

Let's break some vows. I'm sure there were some hot priests back then, so they were probably like, let's see if we can break some vows.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Stroke the ego a little bit. When that didn't work, they were like, bring on the exorcist. Let's see.

[Elena]

Have a little fun.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then they just gave it up.

[Andrew McMahon]

Well, it's an easy out, too. It's like we can just claim that it was. We were possessed. But we're having a great time and there will be some recourse, you know, we'll get back to normal eventually.

[Unknown]

You know what? We'll have our memories.

[Ash]

Exactly. You could just leave the nunnery by saying you fucked the devil. Yeah. Honestly, it's really a way out, actually.

[Unknown]

Easiest way to leave the nunnery, I would say. That's how I get out of most social situations.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

If I don't want to be there.

[Ash]

Sorry, I can't make it tonight.

[Andrew McMahon]

Book signing's not gonna work tonight.

[Unknown]

I slept with the devil. Oh, I fucked the devil. I gotta go.

[Ash]

My bad. Yeah, I love it. All right, well, this is a weird shift now, but we're going to play some. Would you rather please say it's dancing pl. It is not even dancing plague related. I just.

[Unknown]

Would you rather the devil climb the tree?

[Andrew McMahon]

Climb the tree and meow?

[Unknown]

You know, I should have put some.

[Ash]

Of those in there. Yeah, but you can both answer, cuz I didn't read these two. So would you guys rather be haunted by a ghost that only you can see or hear whispers that no one else can hear Here.

[Andrew McMahon]

I'm going with the ghost. There's something about whispering nobody can hear that feels really ominous. At least they can be like, oh, there's my friend, the ghost.

[Unknown]

Yeah, hopefully.

[Andrew McMahon]

Is it a friendly ghost? Do we know?

[Unknown]

We don't know.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's up in the air. Okay.

[Ash]

It's up to you.

[Unknown]

It's up to you.

[Ash]

It's your ghost.

[Andrew McMahon]

I'd rather. In general, I'd rather. I'd rather be able to see it if it's just whispering. I'm.

[Unknown]

That.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's a. That's another level for me.

[Ash]

That'll drive you.

[Unknown]

That's how I feel. I would definitely rather ghost because whispering would drive. But I am very like, you know, you have misophonia. I get very annoyed with certain sounds over and over again. So that would piss me off.

[Ash]

It's like, I even need lunch.

[Unknown]

Shut up.

[Andrew McMahon]

Whispering's on your list.

[Unknown]

O. Constant whispering, I think would make me crazy.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Yeah. I think it would make a lot of people crazy. Yeah. Misophonia or not, but seeing a ghost.

[Unknown]

Every now and then would just be like, oh, hey.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You never feel alone.

[Ash]

Yeah, There you go. Perfect.

[Unknown]

You could tell them the big events in your life.

[Andrew McMahon]

Just call my imaginary friend.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Just be like, oh, hey, you're here. Let me tell you something cool that happened today.

[Ash]

I think I agree with you guys. I take the ghost. All right, number two, Would you rather live in a house that rearranges itself every night or in one where the doors occasionally lead to other dimensions? Oh, to other dimensions.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Why?

[Unknown]

Rearranging my house every night would send me into orbit. I just. Nope. I'm a light comfort creature.

[Ash]

You are.

[Unknown]

That would annoy the. And I'm a control freak. Waking up to having my house rearranged every morning would not be no sign off, but another dimension. Let's go.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, I'm there with you. I'm like, I'm very type A and things are where they need to be.

[Unknown]

And they're staying and they're Now.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, they're not moving.

[Unknown]

Don't touch them.

[Andrew McMahon]

And also, like, let's see what's in the other dimension. I'm curious.

[Ash]

I'm going house rearrange. Because I can put it back. I don't want to go to. I don't know what these other dimensions have in them.

[Unknown]

What if there's nuns meowing and trying to fuck priests?

[Ash]

What if I fall in and I can't get back into my house to rearrange my furniture?

[Andrew McMahon]

You can't rearrange it every day because it's going to get rearranged that night.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's true. That's a lot of work.

[Ash]

I know, but dimensions are scary.

[Unknown]

It's bad to your floors.

[Ash]

It is bad to your floors.

[Unknown]

That's.

[Ash]

That's real.

[Andrew McMahon]

If it's a really. If it's a really good interior designer who's rearranging the house, maybe it's a different story.

[Ash]

Yeah, this is my scenario. It is.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. Like. Oh, like, that's a really nice new configuration of the living room furniture that.

[Unknown]

Helped the feng shui.

[Ash]

Excited to see what you do tomorrow?

[Unknown]

No, that. Still, even that wouldn't work for me. Me, I'm too much of a control freak.

[Ash]

I'm sticking with it.

[Unknown]

I believe in you.

[Andrew McMahon]

I bag it.

[Ash]

All right, Number three. Would you rather live in a world where every book you open transports you into its story or where every movie you watch traps you inside its universe until the movie ends? It's kind of like the same thing.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I mean, I think the longer trip in the book is probably less of a vibe.

[Unknown]

Depends on the book, I suppose.

[Andrew McMahon]

I can handle two hours in another world pretty easily. I've worked my way up with psychedelics, and this is actually something that I.

[Unknown]

Thought that you're like, you know what?

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, I know. I can handle that. But I'm a slow reader, so.

[Unknown]

In this world, that's the I've always want. Like, every time I read a book, I'm always like. Like, take me with me.

[Ash]

That's how I feel.

[Unknown]

Like, I just want to jump into the book. But now I'm thinking about it, and I'm like, that's true. That would be a long. A long.

[Andrew McMahon]

Well, and with some of the books that y'all are reading for this podcast, I would imagine those are not worlds that you want to spend a lot of time in.

[Ash]

No, I'd like to pick and choose which books.

[Unknown]

Definitely choosing the books.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

If I'm jumping into every book I read, then that's a problem.

[Ash]

Same thing with movies. Because we watched up movies a lot. I don't want to go in some of them.

[Unknown]

That's true.

[Ash]

It's a hard choice.

[Unknown]

I think it's the. I'm going to go with yours. The time crunch is what I. If I know I have a finite time. All right, that'll make me feel better. I like a note.

[Ash]

Yeah, I get that. I was thinking story, because when you're reading, you're kind of like making, like, your own visuals, so it'd be kind of cool to see that. I haven't done psychedelics relic, so that would be my way of doing it.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's the surprise for this episode. I brought some here.

[Unknown]

I'm totally kidding.

[Andrew McMahon]

Don't get the wrong here, dude. These are occasional journeys.

[Unknown]

Like, don't worry, everybody.

[Ash]

If you're like, it's fine.

[Unknown]

Don't worry. Yeah, that's a hard one. I think the only, like. Because again, I. I've always wanted to jump into a book.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I love books.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But again, it's the time.

[Ash]

I get that.

[Unknown]

Because I'm also that way with like. Like, like, everybody who listens knows I. Like, I'm not good in social situations, so going out. But like, add a social situation out. I always like to know. Yeah, I need an end to it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So, yeah, I think the movie.

[Ash]

Yeah, I get that. Because then you can pick like, hour and a half, two hours.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, I'm maybe not jumping into, like.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I'm not jumping into, like.

[Andrew McMahon]

You're only watching short films from here on out.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

Or I probably. I probably would jump into a Harry Potter Potter movie, actually. Really?

[Ash]

Depending on that.

[Unknown]

Sounds awesome.

[Ash]

Which one?

[Unknown]

Yeah, I jump in all of them. Let's go. Yeah, I love that. Just. That cemented it for me.

[Ash]

All right, last one. Would you rather live in a world where night never falls? So it's basically just like eternal daytime or an eternal night where you would never witness the sun again?

[Andrew McMahon]

Obviously. Daytime.

[Unknown]

Nighttime.

[Ash]

Nighttime.

[Andrew McMahon]

I had a feeling you would go that way.

[Ash]

Yeah. Nighttime for sure.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

I need the sun. Like, I'm. Yeah, I need the sun.

[Ash]

It's the California in you.

[Andrew McMahon]

Well, yeah. Well, I was born out here. I actually was born in. In Massachusetts.

[Ash]

Oh. Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

And moved across the country. But getting to California now it's like, if I. When I tour in the winter time, it's. It's not good for me. Like. Like, if. If it's dark for a long time, I lose. I lose my mind. Yeah.

[Unknown]

See, and we brought you at the perfect time.

[Andrew McMahon]

It was sunny this morning a little.

[Ash]

Bit when it glistens in the snow. So it's.

[Andrew McMahon]

I had an amazing walk this morning. I was like, I didn't feel Cold. I. I went and got coffee and I was like, okay. This was.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Cuz you told me you prepared me.

[Unknown]

You're like, I did.

[Andrew McMahon]

There's no sun out here. And I was like, I can handle that for two days. But two days is like my limit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And the sun was like, I'll come out for you.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Just welcome to Boston.

[Unknown]

Because we have not had sun for weeks at this point.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's been dark.

[Unknown]

Yeah. The sun doesn't like me very much.

[Andrew McMahon]

Sounds like you don't like it either.

[Unknown]

And I don't like it. We have like a channel for disrespect for each other.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I'm way too pale for the sun.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I don't do well in it.

[Ash]

Elena carries around a parasol in the summer.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Really?

[Ash]

Like a golf girl parasol.

[Unknown]

I do not want to get burned. I. I don't want. And I don't want wrinkles.

[Ash]

Yes. And you're good.

[Unknown]

You know, it does. We. We have a mutual disrespect.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Which became a respect.

[Andrew McMahon]

Do you have a parasol collection?

[Unknown]

I only have one, weirdly.

[Ash]

You should have a collection.

[Unknown]

I know I should.

[Ash]

I like that idea.

[Unknown]

I also like a big, wide brimmed hat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

This sounds like good morbid merch. The parasol feels on brand to make.

[Unknown]

Mikey write that off.

[Ash]

Mikey's got it.

[Andrew McMahon]

He's like, already done it.

[Unknown]

I got it. You also feel like you're in like another era when you carry around a parasol, which is fun.

[Andrew McMahon]

I have a lot of admiration for a parasol. Like when I see people out doing the parasol thing, I'm like, I couldn't do it. Even when it rains. I don't carry an umbrella. Whatever. Just get me wet. I'm fine. But. But I. The commitment to, you know, good skin. But I love the sun too much. I'm like, I will look like a. Like a beat up leather shoe. That's what feels like within the next 10 years. And I'm fine with it. I'm like, when I see those guys on the beach and I'm just like, yeah, that guy.

[Unknown]

That's my future.

[Andrew McMahon]

I did it. I'm like, I'm like, maybe you don't think this is good looking, but I'm like, I want to just look like a shoe.

[Unknown]

I'm going to live.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I'm a shoe.

[Andrew McMahon]

I'm fine with it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just. I don't do well in the sun either. Like, I don't like hot. Like as soon as here, I don't like hot.

[Ash]

I don't like hot.

[Unknown]

Like, I. Here it's like as soon as it gets in the 60s, I'm like, this is my perfect weather. Yeah. Like I can live in the 60s, fall all day.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, I like that kind of sun. I feel like in the fall, it's like a. Like a muted sun.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Unknown]

It has a different vibe to it. I don't know how to explain it.

[Ash]

No, I get that.

[Unknown]

And then as soon as it gets in the summer, it's like this harsh sun that, like, I hate the look of it. I just don't, like. I don't know.

[Ash]

Everything's too bright for you.

[Unknown]

Too bright.

[Andrew McMahon]

I'm the opposite. I'll go to the desert in the middle of the summer when it's like 113 degrees and I'll just be in heaven.

[Unknown]

That's where.

[Ash]

Like a little folding mirror.

[Andrew McMahon]

No, no, I never did that. I toured with a band once. The singer actually had one of them.

[Ash]

No way.

[Unknown]

My God.

[Andrew McMahon]

We'll never say who. They're great. And he's great too. But. But I remember walking outside and made like, that dude's doing like the grandma on the porch thing with the. With the reflector.

[Ash]

Don't think is real.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I was like, this is like. This is a level of commitment to tanning that I've never even imagined. Yeah, but. But I get cold so easily.

[Ash]

I get cold very easily.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. And I'm just like. And I. It's My least favorite feeling is being cold.

[Ash]

Really?

[Unknown]

And my least favorite feeling is being hot.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I'm the opposite. I'm like, hot. I can handle adult, but not when I'm sleeping.

[Unknown]

Oh.

[Ash]

Oh. I have to be freezing when I'm sleeping. Me and my husband get in fights all the time. I've been turning off the heat lately. He's like, stop doing that. It's like 60 degrees in this room. Like, I am.

[Unknown]

I know. Going above us. And John's like, why? It's February. Like, what? I'm like, yes.

[Ash]

It's the science fact that you sleep better when you're cold.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's true.

[Unknown]

I do.

[Andrew McMahon]

It's true.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So, yeah.

[Unknown]

I don't. My thought process about it is that you can only take off so many layers. Years.

[Ash]

Yeah. You can add so many.

[Unknown]

Like, I can't peel my skin off. I could, but I'm not going to.

[Ash]

Don't.

[Unknown]

You can put on. I mean, I guess I'm an autopsy technician. I know how to flay back Skin.

[Ash]

Could you bring yourself to do it?

[Unknown]

Absolutely not. No.

[Ash]

I thought you were gonna say absolutely. I was like, whoa.

[Unknown]

Not to myself, to a dead person. I can.

[Ash]

Well, yeah, you have.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I'm like, we should end this.

[Andrew McMahon]

Take a turn.

[Unknown]

I like it, but you can't take off. Off all the layers to get cool. But you can put on all the layers.

[Andrew McMahon]

I mean, it's. It's a sound logic. It's just when I don't follow at all.

[Unknown]

It's okay. We diverge here.

[Andrew McMahon]

That's fine.

[Unknown]

It's like, we got the optics.

[Andrew McMahon]

We can be friends.

[Ash]

We have all the things.

[Unknown]

This is where we diverge. It's okay. We'll just be friends in different continents.

[Ash]

I'll just stand in the middle of you. I like both.

[Andrew McMahon]

I came to you in winter, so, you know. You did.

[Unknown]

That's true. That's how we know we're friends.

[Ash]

Exactly. That's the last one. I pick eternal night because I'm a night person, but I still like the sun, so I'd be like, a little bummed, I think. But. Yeah, but you know. Yeah.

[Unknown]

I just also love the night.

[Ash]

Well, yeah, that's what. That's how I feel.

[Andrew McMahon]

Did you watch Night Country? Did you? Did you?

[Unknown]

I did.

[Ash]

I have not.

[Unknown]

I think I could vibe.

[Andrew McMahon]

That was. Yeah, it was great.

[Unknown]

It was. It was really.

[Andrew McMahon]

But even me, I was like, this is horrible. Every episode is dark. Every episode.

[Unknown]

Like, it's that part of the country that like, goes into night for three months.

[Ash]

Oh, I think I would thrive.

[Unknown]

I think I would do okay.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Not me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

No, I would be. It'd be over in one season for me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I will have. I would have lost my mind.

[Unknown]

There's also like a. A reverse of that that happens where it's like three months of light. That would kill me.

[Andrew McMahon]

I've been to Alaska when it was in that.

[Unknown]

That bonkers.

[Andrew McMahon]

It was. It. I mean, it was. It was hard to sleep.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Andrew McMahon]

For sure. But it was pretty cool to go outside when it was like two in the morning and it's like.

[Unknown]

Oh, and it's the middle daytime.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah. I mean, it would be like dusky, you know, but it was. It was. It was pretty cool that I feel.

[Unknown]

Like that would, like, up your circadian rhythm. It totally does.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Definitely.

[Unknown]

The other way would too, obviously, so that wouldn't be great.

[Ash]

Yeah. You gotta be strong to live out there.

[Unknown]

Damn.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Do you live out there? Anyone write in?

[Ash]

Lots of emails coming in.

[Unknown]

I know. Suddenly we're really Calling for emails this morning.

[Ash]

Well, that was fun.

[Unknown]

That was fun.

[Ash]

I loved that.

[Andrew McMahon]

Thanks for inviting me. I had a blast.

[Unknown]

Thanks for coming.

[Ash]

Thank you for coming on.

[Unknown]

We learned a lot. Oh, and check out the Dear Jack foundation if you want to say anything about that before we leave.

[Andrew McMahon]

Yeah, I mean, so Dear Jack is. It's a nonprofit I started years ago on the heels of my survivorship with leukemia. And so we advocate for adolescent and young adults. So people 15 to 39, which is like for years has been a really forgotten and demographic of cancer patient and survivor. And so yeah, we build programs for, for this group specifically. We do retreats for couples that are entering survivorship and we also do a wish granting program for, for young adult cancer patients. So yeah, please just go to dearjackfoundation.org if you want to learn more about what we're doing or if you happen to have a friend or be going through the cancer journey yourself. We have a lot of support services and ways to kind of link up with you and try and make the journey easier.

[Unknown]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Unknown]

I love it. So go check it out.

[Ash]

Yeah. Perfect. And you guys, we hope you keep.

[Unknown]

Listening and we hope you keep weird.

[Ash]

But not so weird that if you haven't already listened to something corporate, Jack's mannequin and Andrew McMahon in the wilderness, you don't check it out.

[Unknown]

SA.

[Andrew McMahon]

Foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app.

[Elena]

Or on Apple Podcasts.

[Ash]

Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey. Hey weirdos. If you guys know one thing about us, it's that we love a deep dive.

[Elena]

Well, if you're looking for a limited.

[Ash]

Series that will completely consume you, we've got you covered. Those sketchy texts you're always getting, sometimes.

[Elena]

There'S something way darker behind them. Imagine helping your brother land a dream job abroad only to discover you've trapped.

[Ash]

Him in a nightmare.

[Elena]

We're talking armed guards with shoot to kill orders and thousands forced to scam.

[Ash]

Others just to stay alive. Wondery's new podcast, Scam Factory follows one family's desperate fight to save their brother from a multi billion dollar criminal empire.

[Elena]

Where the only way out is to.

[Ash]

Become part of the scheme that trapped you.

[Elena]

Are you looking for a wild story.

[Ash]

That'Ll keep you up at night?

[Elena]

Follow Scam Factory on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ash]

You can binge all episodes of Scam Factory early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.