Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid
Episode 669: The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)
Release Date: May 5, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 669 of Morbid, titled "The Crimes of Robert Durst (Part 1)", hosts Alayna and Ash delve deep into one of the most perplexing and chilling cases in true crime history. This episode meticulously chronicles the mysterious disappearance of Kathy Durst, the subsequent investigation, and the emergence of Robert Durst as the prime suspect. Through detailed storytelling, the hosts illuminate Durst's complex background, setting the stage for the unfolding drama.

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The Murder of Morris Black

The episode begins with the harrowing discovery of Morris Black's remains, setting off a chain of events that would eventually lead investigators to Robert Durst.

Discovery at Galveston Bay [11:38 - 17:26]

• Alayna narrates the morning of September 30, 2011, when David Avina went fishing with his children, James (13) and Elise (8). James wandered down the beach and stumbled upon what he believed to be a part of a human body floating in the water.
• "I was just staring at this pinkish blob, and it dawned on me, 'Oh, I'm pretty sure that's a piece of a human body.'" ([12:46])
• David, an experienced surgical nurse, immediately recognized the remains as human, specifically the torso of a man. Police and shore patrol swiftly responded, uncovering additional bags containing Morris Black's remains and various unrelated items like washcloths and receipts.
• The cause of death was identified as a .22 caliber gunshot wound to the face, with indications that the body was dismembered postmortem.

Investigative Breakthrough [17:58 - 25:26]

• Investigators traced the remains to Morris Black, a 71-year-old Galveston resident with minor offenses. Despite his gruff demeanor, Black didn't appear to have significant enemies.
• A pivotal discovery was made when police found a .22 caliber pistol and a spent shell casing in Black's apartment, along with a receipt for an eye exam addressed to "Robert Durst" from a tenant across the hall.
• Alayna explains, "The remains... were that of an elderly white man in his 70s. And... the police found items that connected the apartment building to the murder." ([17:58])

Identification of Robert Durst [23:26 - 25:26]

• The landlord, Klaus Dillman, initially dismissed the Durst connection, believing "Dorothy Sinner" to be the actual tenant. However, upon closer inspection, Durst bore a striking resemblance to both Sinner and her brother-in-law.
• "Robert Durst had lived there for at least four years," Alayna states, highlighting the surprising link between Durst and the crime.
• Durst was apprehended when a patrol officer spotted his silver Honda, leading to the discovery of more incriminating evidence, including a bow saw similar to tools used in Black's dismemberment.

Notable Quote:

• Ash remarks, "He's lived a thousand lives. None of them good." ([25:56])

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Unraveling Robert Durst’s Background

To comprehend the depths of Robert Durst's involvement, the episode delves into his early life, family dynamics, and the influences that shaped his character.

Early Life and Family [25:56 - 32:20]

• Robert Allen Durst was born on April 12, 1943, in Manhattan to Seymour Durst, a prominent real estate developer, and Bernice Hurstein.
• Alayna shares, "Growing up in the Durst household meant exposure to both immense wealth and high expectations." ([26:11])
• Tragedy struck in 1950 when Bernice Durst died from a fall, officially deemed accidental, but many speculated it was suicide. This event profoundly affected Robert and his siblings, leading to strained family relationships.

Education and Early Career [32:20 - 36:21]

• Robert attended Lehigh University for business and economics but was drawn to the burgeoning counterculture movement, clashing with his father's expectations.
• At UCLA, he formed a close friendship with Susan Berman, a relationship that would have significant implications in later years.
• Defying his family's wishes, Robert opened a health food store in Vermont, "All Good Things," funded by his father but reflecting his desire to rebel against the family business. ([35:57])

Marriage to Kathy McCormick [36:21 - 47:08]

• Robert met Kathy McCormick in early 1970s, quickly marrying her in April 1973. Their marriage initially thrived, but underlying issues soon surfaced.
• Alayna notes, "Kathy didn’t love how much time Robert spent with Susan Berman," highlighting the strains in their relationship. ([38:36])
• As Robert's jealousy and possessiveness grew, so did Kathy's desire for independence. By late 1980, the marriage was deteriorating, marked by verbal and physical abuse.
• Kathy's pursuit of a medical degree further estranged her from Robert, culminating in her disappearance on January 31, 1982.

Notable Quotes:

• "It's productive for you," Ash encourages during a discussion on morning routines, illustrating their engaging and conversational style. ([03:41])
• Alayna emphasizes the significance of Kathy's disappearance: "She said, if anything happens to me, check it out. I'm afraid of what Bobby will do." ([49:11])

---

The Disappearance of Kathy Durst

The episode shifts focus to the mysterious disappearance of Kathy Durst, painting a picture of the troubled marriage and the suspicions surrounding Robert Durst.

Timeline of Disappearance [43:21 - 54:37]

• On January 30, 1982, Robert and Kathy drove to Truesdale Lake, hoping a weekend away might mend their fractured relationship.
• The following day, Kathy visited a neighbor to borrow a hat and scarf, appearing distressed. Later, she attended a dinner party at Gilbert Najimi's home, visibly upset and disheveled.
• After a heated argument with Robert, Kathy left the dinner party, expressing fear of Robert's potential actions. She was never seen alive after that night.
• Robert reported Kathy missing four days later, an act that seemed delayed and insincere to investigators.
• Witness testimonies about Kathy's whereabouts were inconsistent, casting further doubt on Robert's claims and motivations.

Investigative Doubts [54:37 - 55:03]

• Detective Michael Struck found Robert's demeanor suspicious, as he appeared unemotional despite his wife's absence.
• Robert's casual inquiries about Kathy weeks later, along with inconsistencies in witness statements, heightened suspicions.
• "But what was this gonna do?" Alayna wonders, reflecting on the implausibility of saving their marriage under such turmoil. ([43:54])

Notable Quotes:

• Alayna remarks on the unnatural calm Robert exhibited: "Disingenuous at best, and at worst, it was coming off suspicious." ([52:50])
• Ash empathizes with Kathy's plight: "Like, that's awful in this. Her saying that this is the last time anyone other than Robert Durst saw Kathy Durst." ([49:08])

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Conclusion and Tease for Part 2

As the episode concludes, Alayna and Ash acknowledge the complexities and unanswered questions surrounding Robert Durst and Kathy's disappearance. They hint at further exploration of the case in Part 2, promising to unravel more enigmatic details and "jinx" phenomena associated with the Durst saga.

Final Remarks [54:45 - 55:03]

• "There’s a lot to follow in this case, so I do think it's a good idea," Alayna states, setting the stage for the continuation in the next episode. ([54:45])

Notable Quote:

• Ash captures the eerie essence of the case: "He creeps me out." ([51:02])

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Key Takeaways

• Robert Durst, a member of the affluent Durst family, emerged as the prime suspect in the gruesome murder of Morris Black after a series of investigative breakthroughs.
• Durst's complex background, marked by family tragedy, rebellion against expectations, and a tumultuous marriage, provides crucial context to his later actions.
• The disappearance of Kathy Durst remains shrouded in mystery, with suspicious circumstances and Robert's behavior raising significant red flags.
• The episode sets a compelling foundation for understanding the intricate dynamics and hidden facets of Robert Durst's life, promising deeper revelations in the subsequent part.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [12:46] James Avina: "I was pretty sure that's a piece of a human body."
• [17:58] Alayna: "The remains were that of an elderly white man in his 70s."
• [25:56] Ash: "He's lived a thousand lives. None of them good."
• [38:36] Alayna: "Kathy didn’t love how much time Robert spent with Susan Berman."
• [49:11] Alayna: "She said, if anything happens to me, check it out. I'm afraid of what Bobby will do."
• [52:50] Alayna: "Disingenuous at best, and at worst, it was coming off suspicious."
• [51:02] Ash: "He creeps me out."
• [54:45] Alayna: "There’s a lot to follow in this case, so I do think it's a good idea."

---

Conclusion

Episode 669 of Morbid offers an immersive exploration into the dark and twisted narrative of Robert Durst. Through meticulous research and engaging storytelling, Alayna and Ash shed light on the enigmatic circumstances surrounding Durst's criminal activities and personal life. For listeners eager to uncover the full extent of this case, Part 2 promises to deliver even more shocking revelations and intricate details.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits non-content sections, such as advertisements and promotional segments, to focus solely on the episode's core content.

Transcript

[Alayna]

Hey, weirdos. Alayna here. If you're looking to kick back and relax with morbid, Wondery is the way to go. It's like having a cozy seat in our haunted mansion. No ads, just you and early access to new episodes. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a morbid network podcast.

[Ash]

From the creator of Think Twice, Michael Jackson. Listen to the new Audible original Final Thoughts Jerry Springer. Once known as the king of trash tv, Springer was the notorious talk show host whose wild daytime program transfixed audiences everywhere. Join Springer's personal and professional life as the ratings soared and the reviews soured. Here, revealing interviews about the choices we make and the regrets we may have. Listen to the new trashy and true Audible original Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer by going to audible.com Springer Guys, the wait is almost over for Mission Impossible, the Final Reckoning, hitting theaters on May 23rd. Everyone is pumped to see this on the big screen. Stunts are next level. Like, how does Tom Cruise just keep raising the bar? And the best part, the whole crew is back together, seeing Ethan Hunt and the squad just going all in for what looks like their craziest mission yet. It just hits different. And talk about a world tour. One minute they're tearing through city streets and then the next they're doing wild stuff in the Arctic. The locations are amazing. It's looking like the ultimate summer movie experience. The action, the crazy plot twists, and that classic Mission Impossible theme of having your teams back. It's all there. This one's going to be epic. See Mission Impossible the Final Reckoning, only in theaters Friday, May 23rd. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Alayna]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is morbid.

[Alayna]

This is morbid. Morbid.

[Ash]

Morbid, Morbid, Morbid.

[Alayna]

There you go.

[Ash]

It's kind of like morbid. And. Yeah, no, it's very much like morbid in the morning. We woke up so early this morning that you could tell me it was 11am right now and I'd be like, yeah, totally.

[Alayna]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Ash]

Yeah, for sure.

[Alayna]

Yeah. We're doing some yog, some yoga in the morning.

[Ash]

We're yog girls.

[Alayna]

We're yogis.

[Ash]

Yeah, pretty much. I felt like a yogi today, cuz sometimes the instructor, like, most of the time she does it with us, like, so I can look at her and be like, what the fuck are we doing? But today, and I, I mostly knew what I was doing.

[Alayna]

Yeah, I mostly knew.

[Ash]

Oh, I'm an honest girl. Sometimes I was like, the.

[Alayna]

Where Are we like which warrior are we in?

[Ash]

Yeah, the warriors I have down. She. We did a lizard. I said what?

[Alayna]

Said what's a lizard?

[Ash]

Said lizard.

[Alayna]

Lizard. Feels great.

[Ash]

And sometimes when we were like doing that like three dog thing, I was still flowing down and then like everybody else was three dogging and I was still open hearting three dogs. I don't know.

[Alayna]

I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah, it feels good though.

[Ash]

It feels nice. Yeah, I feel good. I feel like I'm getting stronger.

[Alayna]

And it clears your mind. It does let you kind of zone out for a little while.

[Ash]

It's a great way to start the.

[Alayna]

Morning, especially super early because we do it before even like anyone. My kids wake up. So that's nice. Cuz it's like then I'm fully awake and ready to go by the time they come rolling down the stairs.

[Ash]

And you've like had some you time. Yeah, I think that's important as a mama sita.

[Alayna]

Oh, it is very, very recommended. If you can get yourself up before your kids in the morning just to give yourself. Even if you don't have to do anything productive, you can just sit.

[Ash]

Oh yeah.

[Alayna]

If you want.

[Ash]

I'd argue.

[Alayna]

Sit in the silence.

[Ash]

I'd argue. That's productive for you.

[Alayna]

Watch a. Watch something on TV that you never get to watch because no one. You don't get the tv like just even having just that hour, even just an hour before your kids wake up. I'm telling you, it makes a difference.

[Ash]

Yeah. And if you don't have kids, it's also just nice to have like to be the only one awake in your house. Like the other morning, I think you like overslept or something. And I was like, oh, I'm not going with. I could have very much. But I said no. But I stayed up and I just read some of my book for like an hour, like five to six. I just sat in my like dark living room with my like mood lighting in red. I was like, bitch, I love it. Speaking of reading.

[Alayna]

Oh yeah, speaking of reading. We're recording this well ahead of time because you know, life, but. So I think by the time this comes out, I think we'll have a whole new ecosystem coming about. By the time this comes out. Absolutely. But I'm just kidding. But by the time this comes out, the paperback of the Butcher Game is gonna be out and available for pre order.

[Ash]

I'm excited.

[Alayna]

It will be out officially on August 12, I believe. But you can pre order it now. It's so early. I don't have a link, but we'll try to throw one in the show notes. So the link is in the show notes right now.

[Ash]

Check it.

[Alayna]

So do it. Pre order it. Everyone loves a paperback. The paperback is nice.

[Ash]

Yeah. You know, I only have the galley of the paperback. I want the. Yeah, the Finn deal.

[Alayna]

You need the Fin deal.

[Ash]

I have the galley. I have the hard cover. Now I need the paperback.

[Alayna]

Now you need the paperback. Paperback is good. You can throw it in your bag. Yeah, you can. You can bend it if you want to. She might come out at you. I want you know I won't get mad at you as long as you don't bend my copy of it.

[Ash]

Okay, Fair.

[Alayna]

Which is fine because I don't lend it out, so. I don't. I never lend out books.

[Ash]

It's true. She doesn't. One time you gave me a book, but you made me essentially sign a contract saying I wouldn't dog your doggy Herb. It's not worth borrowing a book from you.

[Alayna]

I make it very not worth it. Really quickly.

[Ash]

I'm so excited. I can't wait for the paperback to come out. Is there a date?

[Alayna]

You're like, really quickly, forget this.

[Ash]

No, I was like, wait, before I move on, let me fully acknowledge how excited I am. No, I was very excited. But is there a date?

[Alayna]

There is. So it's already out for pre order, but I think it's going to be out officially. August 12th.

[Ash]

August 12th. I like that date.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

9 12.

[Alayna]

I love that.

[Ash]

August is eight, you fucking idiot.

[Alayna]

August is right before fall.

[Ash]

That's time, baby.

[Alayna]

Right before fall.

[Ash]

We're getting there.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

August.

[Alayna]

It's so close to fall.

[Ash]

August, fall.

[Alayna]

I need. I feel fall in my bones. No.

[Ash]

Let us get through the summer first, okay?

[Alayna]

You know what I'm sick of?

[Ash]

What are you sick of?

[Alayna]

I'm sick of any time I. Every year I get to this exact spot and I say, I need fall. And you know what I hear from everybody? Let us get through summer. I'm not stopping you. I'm not stopping a whole season from coming and going. I'm not putting some kind of magic into the air. You have to stop.

[Ash]

You are putting magic into the air, man.

[Alayna]

I want fall.

[Ash]

You know, your manifestation does the same thing.

[Alayna]

He's like, let us get through something. Like, I'm letting you.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Calm down, you crazy person.

[Alayna]

Never. Mikey, what are these weird.

[Ash]

Like weird things you're doing with your vocal cords?

[Alayna]

It's like I'm scared because I'm mad.

[Ash]

I'm scared. I'm mad.

[Alayna]

I'm not stopping.

[Ash]

No, but you are putting magic in the air. You're, like, manifesting that summer goes by fast and I don't want it to.

[Alayna]

Yeah, too bad. That's why I said I'm gonna manifest. I like fall, too.

[Ash]

All I want in my goddamn life is to go. And this is. I'm a Disney adult, and I don't care. I'm gonna say it out loud, and I don't care. All I want in my goddamn life in Disney World for October. Like, I crave that so badly. So I can't wait for fall. But then every time fall comes around, it's hurricane season in Florida. In Florida, yeah. So I can't go.

[Alayna]

I mean, I never want to leave New England during the fall. And you don't like to refuse to.

[Ash]

I know. We're just stating our wants now, so there's that. So that's my want.

[Alayna]

So hurricane season actually works in my favor.

[Ash]

I'm under biting at her. I'm under biting this.

[Alayna]

Like, I'm not traveling during that time.

[Ash]

So I want to so bad.

[Alayna]

Sorry.

[Ash]

Maybe this year's the year. Maybe it's the year maybe 20, 25, maybe. I want to go and I want to, like, see, like, the. Like, it. Be like, the pumpkin in the center and everything and get the merch.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And the. In the party.

[Alayna]

I want to go. I want that for you.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alayna]

You know, thanks. You're welcome.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alayna]

Thank you.

[Ash]

I had a moment.

[Alayna]

I won't. I won't yell at you about that.

[Ash]

That's good. You can't yell at me anymore. You already yelled at me real big.

[Alayna]

Because I'm not stopping summer. I'm just gonna talk about fall all through summer.

[Ash]

That's the. That's the thing, is.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The whole time we're all enjoying summer. You're saying fall now.

[Alayna]

What did you say at the beginning of that sentence the whole time? That we're enjoying.

[Ash]

We're still enjoying.

[Alayna]

We're still enjoying summer. I can talk about fall, and everybody can still enjoy their summer.

[Ash]

This woman.

[Alayna]

God damn this woman.

[Ash]

We're gonna get in an actual fight again. We've been match recording too much lately.

[Alayna]

Too many match recordings.

[Ash]

People are like, are they gonna break up? No, we literally never. We're not allowed.

[Alayna]

But speaking of, you know, things that you don't. No, I have nothing. I. I don't have a way to. To segue. It has been too many patch recordings because I've lost my ability to segue.

[Ash]

My coffee almost came through my nose. No, I don't have anything.

[Alayna]

I don't have it. I thought it was gonna. You know how sometimes when you don't have something to say, you just keep going? You're like, just talk and it'll form itself. Sometimes that works.

[Ash]

Can I tell you, that's how I get through my everyday life.

[Alayna]

Not here, though. That didn't work.

[Ash]

It doesn't always.

[Alayna]

So I'm just gonna go right into it. What we're gonna cover today is the crimes of Robert Durst. Of course not. Fred Durst from Limp Bizkit.

[Ash]

Different. He wants to break stuff.

[Alayna]

He does. He wants to break stuff. And. But we're talking about the Jinx.

[Ash]

Of course.

[Alayna]

Of course there's. If you've watched the documentary the Jinx, I highly recommend you do it. It's fascinating.

[Ash]

And the theme song.

[Alayna]

Oh, oh, the theme song is a plus.

[Ash]

Is it the Eels? Yeah, it is.

[Alayna]

Wow.

[Ash]

Bitch. Check me out.

[Alayna]

Impressive.

[Ash]

Thank you.

[Alayna]

Yeah. I immediately put it on a playlist when I watched it. So it's a really horrifying documentary. It's scary, it's upsetting, but it's fascinating. It's all that stuff. And they caught that very infamous chitter chatter in the bathroom. In the bathroom on his hot mic there. And at one point, the way he says, of course in that clip, he's like, of course. It's like a very specific way he says it. And Ash says, of course like that. And I mean, not intentionally. She just, that's how she, she says. She'll be like, oh, like, yeah, I'll drive. Of course. Like, she just says it. It just like naturally happens. And every time she says it, I'm like, okay, jinx. Like, I can't, I can't stop. So that, that's just in my brain right now. But of course, let's get to the very beginning because I think a lot of people know the Jinx documentary. They know the name Robert Durst. They might know a little bit about it, but like there's. So this is a really scary case.

[Ash]

It's involved.

[Alayna]

He's a very scary man.

[Ash]

Yeah, he did a lot.

[Alayna]

So we're gonna start with the murder of Morris Black, which is a very gruesome, very sad thing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

So on the morning of September 30, 2011, David Avina set out for Galveston Bay for just to, you know, just to go fishing with his kids. He had his 13 year old son, James, and his 8 year old daughter Elise. They were really just like, it's this isn't like a big thing. They were just going out to kind of like hang out together lazily. Fish. So they set themselves up on the shoreline. They just put their lines in the water and just sat down and waited for fish to bite.

[Ash]

That's how it goes.

[Alayna]

That's how it goes. So somewhat bored with this whole thing though. The 13 year old James, he was like, I'm just gonna wander down the beach a little bit because I'm just staring at a fishing pole right now. And at 13 you don't want to do that probably. So he goes down the rocky beach and he hears his father calling him back because he was asking him to come help reel in some of the lines because shit got excited. Shit got excited when he left.

[Ash]

That's what always happens. You leave and the fish bite.

[Alayna]

Exactly. So as James wandered back to his father and sister, he saw something in the water and he saw something floating and he was like, huh. So he just stared at it for a couple of seconds, kind of trying to like reconcile what he was looking at.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

And he said it was just like a pinkish blob. But he was like. But he was weird. It was weird looking. It just didn't look like anything he had seen before. And then it dawned on him and he said, oh, I'm pretty sure that's a piece of a human body.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alayna]

And he's 13. Like that's a kid. I should have to see that.

[Ash]

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[Alayna]

So James yelled to his father and he said there's a body over here. But David Avina was like, yeah, he's definitely joking and he's probably trying to get his sister all freaked out like that's very 13 year old boy to do. So David dropped what he was doing and ran over to James and he was expecting to see, you know, maybe an animal in the water or something like inanimate just floating in the water. But it was not an animal and it was not something inanimate. David Avina had been a surgical nurse and so he was very well versed on the human body.

[Ash]

What are the odds?

[Alayna]

And yeah, right. And he immediately knew what was floating in the bay had definitely once been part of a human body. Specifically, it was the trunk portion of a man.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alayna]

But the head, arms and legs were missing, which must have been horrifying to see. Yeah, so he led his kids back to the car and immediately called the police. And they arrived on the scene a few minutes later. Now, the remains were removed from the water. And while they were doing that, police and shore patrol agents were fanning out across the beach looking for any additional evidence, any more remains. And several hours into the search, long after the sun had gone down, investigators found about 80ft offshore, three garbage bags containing more of this victim's remains. Oh, man. A short time after that, more bags were found down the shore, and those contain the rest of the man's remains.

[Ash]

My goodness.

[Alayna]

According to the technician who performed the autopsy, the remains were that of an elderly white man in his 70s.

[Ash]

It's so sad. You make it to 70 years old.

[Alayna]

And that's how you go out. The cause of death was a.22 caliber gunshot wound to the face. All indications were that the dismemberment had occurred postmortem.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

More interesting than the remains themselves was that there was a lot of other stuff mixed in with these remains. There was a lot of pieces of garbage, basically, cash register receipts for garbage bags, a drop cloth, a $6.99 bow saw. They also. In the bags, they also found bloody towels, one flip flop, one shower shoe, a piece of tan fabric, like a bunch of blue plastic cups, used paper towels, and a copy of USA Today from two days earlier.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Alayna]

And the address label was still on the USA Today. Oh. When they scoured the shoreline, they also found a blue bed sheet and a pair of men's underwear. Okay, so a lot of stuff.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's a lot.

[Alayna]

A lot of stuff. So investigators ran the victim's fingerprints and identified him as 71 year old Morris Black. Morris Black was a resident of Galveston. He did have a criminal record, but it was just minor offenses. Yeah, people who knew him, they didn't have the kindest things to say about him. They called him gruff. They called him short tempered. He was very demanding, that kind of thing. They didn't call him like he was this horrible monster. It was just like he was kind of like. Kind of like, yeah, short tempered. A Galveston business owner said of dealing with Morris Black, no matter how busy we were, he would break in and demand that I stop everything and see him. And Black's sister Trudy, kind of gave a similar description. She said of her brother, if he had a disagreement, he'd go protest, he'd march in front of the building. He could make enemies.

[Ash]

Oof.

[Alayna]

So he had a little bit of a reputation. So investigators were like, all right, there's probably at least one person that might want. Have wanted to hurt him. Right. But the more they interviewed his neighbors and acquaintances, they realized that it wasn't that like he was like a bad guy. And it's not like they really didn't find. They were like, I don't think he would have attracted a killer. He seems like he's just kind of like. Like a nuisance. Like he just kind of. He rubs people the wrong way.

[Ash]

Like he's not like threatening people or like out in these streets making enemies.

[Alayna]

And he's not. It didn't seem like he was pissing people off to the point of like you could have attracted somebody like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So when their interviews with friends and acquaintances turned up nothing, investigators visited Morris Black's home. And that was the address that they had found on the USA Today copy. When they arrived there, which it was a fourplex on a quiet street. And investigators took a look around the outside of the building. Just look for anything, basically. And inside one of the trash cans, they found an empty Black garbage bag that matched the bags that Morris Black's remains were discovered in. They also found the packaging for the drop cloth found with the body and a large amount of paper towels that matched those found in the bags. And they found a bunch of other items that connected the apartment building to the murder. Okay, So a search of the second trash can turned up even more evidence. I mean, it's crazy. Including a.22 caliber pistol and a spent shell casing. Whoa. And a receipt for an eye exam addressed to one of the residents, Robert Durst, whose address was across the hall from Black's apartment.

[Ash]

Okay?

[Alayna]

Now, according to the landlord, Klaus Dillman, no one by the name of Durst, Robert Durst lived in that building. He said no, the person in the place across the street, the hall from Black, that there's a quote, nice middle aged lady named Dorothy Sinner. So the landlord told detectives that Sinner had lived in the apartment since 2000. Apparently they had moved in about a month after Morris Black and the woman had never caused any problems. Okay, so they were like, I don't know what you're talking about. But Dillman did add that it wasn't Sinner herself who had rented the apartment, but her brother in law. Her brother in law had made all the arrangements over the phone because Sinner had some kind of condition with her larynx, so she could not speak.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

In fact, they said, he said, in the few times when Sinner and him had communicated at all she had done so through handwritten notes. Okay. And finally, Dillman said yes. He had met the brother in law once and had seen him on a few occasions, and he'd never actually seen the two of them together, actually. Weird. Strangely meaning Sinner and the brother in law.

[Ash]

Strange.

[Alayna]

When investigators searched Black and Sinner's apartments, it was clear they'd found the crime scene in both apartments. There was blood on the walls and floors, as well as a blood trail leading across the hall from one apartment to the other.

[Ash]

Well, that'll tell you.

[Alayna]

Yep. In Sinner's apartment, detectives found a 4 inch paring knife and a pair of bloody boots. They also discovered blood outside the apartment building in the parking lot. And one of the other tenants, Maria de Hernandez, told detectives that on the night of Morris Black's murder, she had seen a man loading black garbage bags into a silver Honda in the parking lot, and she didn't recognize that man.

[Ash]

That's terrifying.

[Alayna]

So as crime scene technicians process Sinner's apartment, what they found painted a very strange picture of who lived there. Although Sinner had lived in the apartment for nearly a year, there was, like, very little furniture hidden here. There was a futon, a small table, and a television. The refrigerator was completely empty, and the stove appeared as though it had never once been used.

[Ash]

That's weird.

[Alayna]

It also looked as though someone had gone out of their way to thoroughly scrub the floors. But when they pulled up the tile on the floor, they found a large amount of blood had seeped through and soaked the boards underneath. Analysis of the blood would prove that it was Morris Black's blood. Now, based on the statement from the neighbor, investigators ran a check for any vehicles registered to Sinner's address that matched the description of the silver Honda. And they learned that Robert Durst had registered just such a vehicle there. When they showed Klaus Dillman a photo of Durst, he acknowledged that he looked like the man he'd assumed to be Sinner's brother in law.

[Ash]

Imagine that.

[Alayna]

But more importantly, he also bore a pretty striking resemblance to Dorothy Sinner herself.

[Ash]

Strange.

[Alayna]

In fact, the more Dillman looked at the photo of Durst, the more he was like, oh, that is actually him. Like, that is Robert Durst. Dorothy Sinner is Robert Durst Wild.

[Ash]

Can you imagine? Robert Durst had lived there how many.

[Alayna]

Years did you say? Four, I think. Yeah, at least. Like, he had moved in right after. Or Dorothy Sinner had moved in right after Morris Black.

[Ash]

That's wild.

[Alayna]

Which is kind of crazy. The handful of interactions Dillman had had with Dorothy Sinner had all been quite brief and really, like I said before, only through notes.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

So it had never occurred to him that Sinner could have been anyone other than who she was saying she was.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Why would you?

[Ash]

Anything else?

[Alayna]

Given what they'd found in the apartments and the information collected from witnesses, it was clear to investigators that there was no Dorothy Sinner. And the main suspect in the murder of Morris Black was Robert Durst.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

Now, a few days later, on October 9, a patrol officer spotted the silver Honda and pulled the driver over. When the officer asked for id, the driver handed him a Holiday Inn Express hotel card with the name Jim Truss.

[Ash]

That is not identification, sir.

[Alayna]

Yeah, obviously this was not what the officer was asking for. So he was like, hey, step out of the car. And he placed this man in custody. When the officer searched through the vehicle, he found a bag of marijuana, a 9 millimeter handgun, and a bow saw similar to the one purchased with the other items days earlier.

[Ash]

Not day to day travel items, not.

[Alayna]

Day to day travel items. At first, investigators suspected this was the saw used in the dismemberment. But when the autopsy was complete, the medical examiner actually confirmed that whoever did the dismemberment had used a paring knife to cut away the muscle, then used a hacksaw to remove the limbs.

[Ash]

Oh, my.

[Alayna]

Now, this man that was arrested on the side of the road was Robert Durst.

[Ash]

That's crazy, right? That's wild.

[Alayna]

You didn't see that coming.

[Ash]

I know.

[Alayna]

Not at all. The arrest of Robert Durst for the murder of Morris Black came as a surprise to just about everyone, particularly because Durst hardly looked like the kind of man who was going to shoot another man in the face. He really does then dismember his body.

[Ash]

No.

[Alayna]

But as investigators started looking into his background, they discovered he was unlike anyone they had investigated before. They were like, wow, we definitely did not know that this is what was lurking underneath. So let's talk about Robert Durst. Who the hell is this man? What is going on?

[Ash]

He's lived a thousand lives. None of them good.

[Alayna]

None of them good. Robert Allen Durst was born in Manhattan on April 12, 1943. He was the oldest child of four children. His parents were Seymour Durst and Bernice Hurstein.

[Ash]

I think Seymour is a great name.

[Alayna]

That is a great name. Like his father before him, Seymour Durst was a wildly successful New York real estate developer and partner at the Durst Organization, which was a development firm recently valued at 8.1 billion.

[Ash]

Casual.

[Alayna]

Very casual.

[Ash]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. I just feel like maintaining your mental health is so important. It used to be that people didn't like to talk about going to therapy. Now I feel like all my friends are in therapy. It's great. Mental health awareness is growing. This Mental Health Awareness Month. Let's encourage everyone to take care of their well being and break the stigma because the world is better when people are happy and healthy. I personally love therapy. If you've ever heard me talk about therapy at all, you know that I'm a huge proponent for it and I really think it can help a lot of people. I think Better Help is also a great option for therapy because Better help has over 10 years of experience matching people with the right therapists from their diverse network of more than 30,000 licensed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Better Help is fully online making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. You can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost and it is just fantastic. We're all better with help. Visit betterhelp.commorbid to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp HTML glp.commorbid what's something your.

[Alayna]

Mom'S always wanted to do? Get into painting. Write that novel. Make the perfect croissant. Whatever it is this Mother's Day, you can finally help her achieve it with Masterclass. Our parents were our first mentors, but who did they look up to? Maybe Wolfgang puck? Ron Finley? RuPaul? Give them the gift of learning to the people who taught you so much with Masterclass, whether you're showing love to your parents or yourself, nothing compares to the gift that can change your life for the better. When I got into Masterclass and took Joyce Carol Oates Art of Storytelling class, I learned that sometimes you have to kind of dive into the dark parts of yourself to write some good spooky stuff. Our parents helped us expand our horizons. Want to return the favor? Give them the gift of Masterclass. I use this and you should too. I was trying to figure out how to write for a younger audience. I'm kind of looking into writing a spooky children's book. So I took R.L. stine's writing for a Young Audience class and it really helped me to like, bring it down to a level where it can be spooky but fun and palatable to a young audience. Our listeners always get great discounts on Masterclass of at least 15% off any annual membership on Masterclass.com morbid see Masterclass latest deal at least 15% [e-mail] masterclass.com morbid. Since being established in 1915 by Joseph Durst and his brothers, the Durst Organization has owned or built some of the most expensive and most recognizable properties in New York City, including the Henry Miller Theater, the Bank of America Tower, and the development of one World Trade Center.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Alayna]

So, yeah. So, like Seymour, Robert's mother, Bernice also came from New York, New York's elite class, and filled her days with social activities.

[Ash]

Queen.

[Alayna]

She was a lady who lunches. She did like charities, luncheons, goals. Very Emily Gilmore.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alayna]

Bernice and seymour married in 1940, and in the 10 years after that, she gave birth to the couple's four children, Robert, Douglas, Wendy and Thomas. Now, tragically, on November 9, 1950, Bernice fell to her death from the roof of the family home in what was later deemed an accident by the coroner.

[Ash]

Hmm.

[Alayna]

According to the press, Bernice had gone out on the roof for unknown reasons, and someone called police and fire department to rescue her. But as the firefighter was climbing the ladder to reach her, Bernice insisted she could get back inside on her own, but slipped on wet leaves and fell to the driveway below, which is horrifying.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's really sad.

[Alayna]

Seymour told investigators that his wife had been in treatment for asthma and had taken a sedative that morning. And later that day, she had seemed confused and unlike herself. The family consulted a physician who recommended Bernice stay in bed to rest. But later that afternoon, she climbed out the window onto the roof in her bathrobe.

[Ash]

Oh, man.

[Alayna]

Despite the official report of an accidental death, there are many reporters and New York socialites who believe Bernice had been profoundly depressed and had possibly intentionally ended her life.

[Ash]

Oh, that's really sad.

[Alayna]

Now, this is people speculating that. Yeah, of course, obviously we do not know that. Now, following Bernice's very unexpected death, the Durst children understandably struggled to adjust to life without their mother. I can't imagine, particularly seven year old Robert.

[Ash]

Oh, so little.

[Alayna]

He claimed to have witnessed the fall. Oh. Seymour responded to the loss of his wife by just retreating into himself and becoming very consumed with his work, which.

[Ash]

You can't when you got four little ones to take care of.

[Alayna]

When he was at home, he would often just disappear into his study and bury himself in books in order to just avoid all of it, avoid all the feelings, everything. The new reality in the Durst home meant that the children were, for the most part, now being raised by nannies and other domestic workers.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Which is like A big change for them. Yeah.

[Ash]

Your mom's there one day and then gone the next, and now you're being.

[Alayna]

Raised by, like, people who aren't your parents. Yeah. Now, as he grew older, Robert Durst developed a quiet and mostly shy personality. He performed pretty, you know, adequate in school. He had a few friends. His life was pretty unremarkable, like, nothing crazy, which, honestly, that's pretty remarkable in and of itself for someone who came from such wealth and privilege. The fact that it was just kind of a chill life, like a pretty casual existence. That said, he seemed to develop some quirks that people who knew him found a little unusual.

[Ash]

He is. That's one way to describe this man's. Is quirky.

[Alayna]

Very quirky. According to his childhood friend Julie Baumgold. She said, quote, he spoke with a drawl. Long pauses, punctuated his speech as if he were struggling to spit out the words now. And it's. And he does have a different way of speaking. Yeah, for sure. Despite being strongly introverted, Robert tried to fit in and was a member of many clubs, including the camera club, the Spanish club, and being a member of the junior varsity soccer team, trying to just like, be one with everybody. After graduating from high school, Robert went on to study business and economics at Lehigh University and intended to go into real estate, like the business, with his father. Things changed, though, once Robert joined the anti war movement that was growing on college campuses across the country. While many young people became activists during this period, Robert's decision to participate didn't really sit well with his dad. His dad insisted his son take his life and responsibilities more seriously. But by then, Robert had become fully involved in the counterculture movement and wasn't interested in whatever his father was trying to tell him what to say.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Now, this shift in his priorities during this period definitely was a major change. This marked a major change in his personality, too.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

Most of his life, he lived up to his father's expectations and incredibly high standards. But now that he was away from Seymour Durst, he began developing his own identity. And much of that identity was going to be rooted in opposition.

[Ash]

Hmm.

[Alayna]

He told a reporter, when I was growing up, it was the days of long hair and marijuana. In terms of announcing that you were going into the family business, that was extremely uncool. Instead, he completed his studies at Lehigh and enrolled in graduate studies at ucla, where many of the counterculture ideas and philosophies were being born.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Now it was at UCLA that Durst met one of the more important influences in his later life. 21 year old Susan Berman. Despite their attraction to one another, Robert and Susan never became a couple. Instead, they've just got. They formed a very tight, close friendship.

[Ash]

Right.

[Alayna]

They bonded over their almost unique personal histories. Basically. Like Robert, Susan came from a prominent and wealthy but pretty troubled family. But unlike Robert, Susan's father's wealth had come from questionable means. Oh. In 1947, the mob affiliated David Berman took over the Flamingo Hotel after its previous owner, Bugsy Siegel, was shot to death by an unknown gunman in his Beverly Hills home.

[Ash]

I heard a Bugsy, so, yeah, that's high up shit.

[Alayna]

Yeah, that's some shit. So Robert and Susan would remain close until her death in 2000. But it turned out that graduate school wasn't exactly where Durst wanted to be. After completing a portion of his program, he dropped out of UCLA in 1969 and went back to the East Coast. But he still wasn't interested in joining the family business. Instead, he. I mean, by now he's fully immersed in the counterculture lifestyle. So he moved to Middlebury. That's in Vermont, and he opened a health food store. So he went, that's it. That's it.

[Ash]

Vermont plus health food store equals Robert Durst.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Also my youngest calls Vermont Vermont. And I love it. And I keep, every time I see it, I think Vermont.

[Ash]

I hope, I hope she never grows out of that.

[Alayna]

Now, the thing is, he's. It's for this, it looks like he's like, totally, you know, rebelling against the idea of the family business. He's going to Vermont, he's opening up a health food store. It was entirely bankrolled by his father, of course. So it's like, it's not like, like.

[Ash]

He'S going out and saying, of course.

[Alayna]

Yeah, of course. Now, as far as Seymour Durst was concerned, the store was a waste of time. But at least Robert was directing his energies towards business and was moving in a more what he considered to be respectful direction. Okay. The store, which was called All Good.

[Ash]

Things, I love that I would go there.

[Alayna]

Right.

[Ash]

Who wouldn't try a store called All Good Things?

[Alayna]

Yeah, it reminds me of the Stephen King book, Needful Things.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

But it's not the same. So the store, All Good Things, was opened in a Durston building. And as a condition of giving his son the money, Robert had to be responsible for the property, which included acting as a landlord to the building's one tenant, Kathy McCormick. Now, Robert first met Kathy in late 1971 when she moved in and pointed out a number of things that needed repairing. And he was immediately taken by her, like, immediately.

[Ash]

He said, strong woman knows what she wants.

[Alayna]

Robert wasted no time asking her for a date. And after going out just two times, he asked her to move into his house. And she agreed and moved in in January 1972.

[Ash]

He said, this is great because I love you and because I won't have to fix those shit.

[Alayna]

I won't have to fix the shit. So while Robert and Kathy's relationship was going well, things at the store were not. Oh. At the same time, Seymour Durst had began encouraging his son to close up the store and return home to Jo the family business. If nothing else, Robert would be able to make much better money, which would allow him to support Cassie and Seymour hoped their family to come. Perhaps he was swayed by the money or the thought of an easier life. But Robert finally caved and went in with his father's demands, and he and Kathy returned to New York in early 1973. And a few months later, on April 12, Robert and Kathy were married. Nice. Now, initially, Robert and Kathy moved in with Robert's brother Douglas and his wife and their newly built home in Katona, which is about 60 miles outside the city. The house was massive. It was spacious, definitely more than enough room for four people. But Kathy quickly started feeling uncomfortable there. According to one of her college friends, the home was more than adequate, but she just hadn't expected things to be so tense, she said. Apparently, Eleanor Schwank said the two brothers fought, bickered, and constantly needled each other. So that was uncomfortable. And after Kathy made her feelings known about this whole thing, the couple moved out of the house and into the Durst Organization's most expensive apartment, which was a penthouse on Riverside Drive. And it had panoramic views of the Hudson River.

[Ash]

Can you imagine?

[Alayna]

It's amazing. So now that they've moved, they're much happier in their new apartment than they had been living outside the city.

[Ash]

I mean, it's a penthouse, honey.

[Alayna]

It's a penthouse. And Robert and Kathy settled into their new lives. She was a nursing student, and he was a real estate developer at the time.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alayna]

A friend, Gilberta Najami, said they were earthy, downright regular people. I thought he was a caring, loving husband. I know Kathy was in love with him. That may have been true, but it didn't take very long for the shimmer and shine of their marriage to wear off a little bit. For Kathy, the idea of marrying someone from an incredibly wealthy family was exciting.

[Ash]

Hell, yeah.

[Alayna]

It not only meant that she could finally have, you know, all the things she ever dreamed of having as a child growing up in a middle class home. But it also meant that she was rubbing elbows with famous and very influential people.

[Ash]

That's fun.

[Alayna]

What she hadn't counted on was Robert being so modest in how he lived.

[Ash]

Not fun.

[Alayna]

Or that all those famous and influential people would be more interested in him than they were in her.

[Ash]

Mm. That's tough.

[Alayna]

Yeah. But most of all, Kathy didn't love how much time Robert spent with Susan Berman.

[Ash]

I moved to New York either.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Who moved to New York in the mid-70s to work for Us magazine.

[Ash]

Okay. Oh, very cool.

[Alayna]

Yeah. With much more free time on her hands than she'd had before, Kathy enrolled in medical school and started making friends of her own.

[Ash]

Wait.

[Alayna]

Good for her.

[Ash]

Good for her. Also, that's funny that Susan worked for Us magazine. Wasn't that the magazine that they found at the crime scene in the beginning of this whole tale?

[Alayna]

Was it Us magazine?

[Ash]

I think it was. I think you said Us Weekly.

[Alayna]

I think you're right.

[Ash]

That's weird.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's just like a weird coincidence.

[Alayna]

That is very strange. Right.

[Ash]

Sorry.

[Alayna]

Yeah, I was. No, I was like, oh, wow.

[Ash]

Had to veer off there.

[Alayna]

Foreign.

[Ash]

The number one thing your mom wants from you is a call to her this Mother's Day. You can give her a call and you can give her an Aura digital picture frame. Mother's Day is coming up and you need a good gift. Ready? And guess what? Aura Frames was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter and featured in 495 gift guides last year. I would say that's a pretty compelling piece of evidence to get your mom one. So the next time you need to call your mom, you can also send her a new pic of you from that trip that you're telling her about. Right. From your phone onto her aura frame. I have a little sister that lives far away from me, and I got her an aura frame. And we're always sharing back and forth silly pictures. We both have a ton of cats, so we love uploading pictures of the cats that, you know, we wouldn't usually spam our everybody else's Instagram feeds with. It's a lot of fun. And if you don't want to give it to your little sister, give it to your mama for Mother's Day or has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 doll off. Plus free shipping on their best selling Carver mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code. Morbid. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Alayna]

But by the end of the 1980s, the once happy couple were now leading lives that appeared to be going in very different directions. Yeah. Robert wanted things to stay exactly as they had been, with Kathy always being available to him whenever he wanted.

[Ash]

That's not realistic.

[Alayna]

Kathy, on the other hand, complained that, quote, they were living well below their means and she aspired for more. Also, Robert's jealousy and his possessiveness had become, like, pretty intolerable, which I totally like. You can only take so much of that.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

He wanted to be the most important person in his wife's life, often at the expense of all her other relationships.

[Ash]

That just can't.

[Alayna]

Singular focus.

[Ash]

That can't last.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Kathy's brother Jim said, at first I liked Bob. But then as the years went by, he said that he seemed not just uninterested in being a part of Kathy's family, but also pretty resentful of having to see or even acknowledge them at all, which is a big problem.

[Ash]

Yeah. That's big red flags right there.

[Alayna]

Yeah. Finally, by late 1980, Robert and Kathy's marriage had just. Just started falling apart. And a few months later, she hired a divorce lawyer and confided to several of her friends that Robert had been physically abusive towards her.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alayna]

Throughout 1981, Kathy started working with her lawyer to file divorce paperwork and continued working to finish medical school at the same time.

[Ash]

Jeez, that's.

[Alayna]

By the end of the year, she was just a few months from earning that degree. Then in January 1982, Kathy Durst just disappeared without a trace. She was months away from earning a medical degree.

[Ash]

That's awful.

[Alayna]

On the morning of January 30, 1982, Robert and Kathy drove from Manhattan to Truesdale Lake in South Salem, where they were planning to spend the weekend at their vacation home. By then, the marriage was definitely in tatters, and Robert had hoped that maybe they were still able to save things if they, you know, took some time to work on it, got away from what he saw as their problems, from the chaos, the. The constant social stimulation of the city. I mean, at this point, you're looking at it and you're like, I don't know if you really could have rebounded from what was going on here.

[Ash]

Once you've become physically abusive, there's really no moving off of that.

[Alayna]

There's really no rebounding off of that. Because, again, like you said, Robert had become physically abusive at this point and Kathy had moved out. And there was really not a lot between them beside, like, bitterness and resentment.

[Ash]

And anger, which makes sense.

[Alayna]

So, like, what was this gonna do? But the following day, Kathy knocked on the door of their neighbor Ruth Mayer and asked if she could borrow a hat and a scarf because she had forgotten to bring hers and she wanted to go for a walk.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Later, when asked about the specifics, Ruth couldn't recall whether Kathy had mentioned if she planned to go for the walk by herself. She said as Kathy began walking away, she called out to say she. Ruth did. She called out and said she was having some friends that evening and suggested that Kathy stop by. But Kathy had other plans.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

The last time Kathie Durst was seen alive was that evening, January 31st. It was at a dinner party thrown by her friend Gilbert Najimmy. Earlier in the afternoon, Kathy had called Najimi and said, I have to get out of the house. Can I come over?

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Alayna]

She arrived a short time later and appeared very distraught. Najimi said she was always nicely turned out. The things she wore were always nice. But that afternoon, she apparently showed up wearing red sweatpants and looked as though she hadn't combed her hair in days. Oh, it was obvious she was in some sort of trouble.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Now, towards the end of Robert and Kathy's marriage, friends and family had definitely started to suspect that things were really bad between this couple. But that afternoon, Najimi got a much more detailed account of just how bad it was. It had started when she was starting to go to medical school years earlier.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Alayna]

A signal that, you know, to Robert that she was becoming more independent. Now, a real man in a. Like, a real man, a real human, a real partner would think, that's great.

[Ash]

Yeah. And sing your praises.

[Alayna]

And sing your praises and encourage you. But no, Robert was like, me, you're not gonna need me. The abuse started gradually, first with just some, like, really biting remarks. You know what I mean? Like, discouragement. Just, like, the verbal kind of stuff. Then it elevated to threats of kind cutting off her tuition payments. Like, you know, using the financial thing against her. Like, the thing. The whole, like, this is my money kind of shit, which is like, that's when it's already done.

[Ash]

It's like, not when you're married.

[Alayna]

The physical abuse soon followed. At first, friends recalled Kathy occasionally mentioning, which, like, she just, like, mentioned that Robert had slapped her. But I can't imagine one of my friends saying that casually no.

[Ash]

And me not going to their house and. And taking care of that.

[Alayna]

But by 1981, the term slapped was hit with. Was replaced with hit, implying much greater force and aggression was happening. Yeah. In the last two years of their marriage, the cruelty Robert directed at Kathy definitely got worse. He openly carried on affairs with other women.

[Ash]

What a pig.

[Alayna]

Including an affair with Mia Farrow's sister, Prudence.

[Ash]

Oh, shit.

[Alayna]

And threw them in Kathy's face whenever he wanted to hurt her. Yeah. At the same time, his drinking and drug use had increased, which only exacerbated his volatility.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Alayna]

At one point, when Robert thought Kathy was having an affair with a mutual friend, he violently assaulted the man, breaking a bone in his face and sending him to the emergency room. Jesus Christ. But remember, he is carrying on affairs.

[Ash]

Yeah. And that's totally okay. She can't do anything about that, right?

[Alayna]

No. In early January, Kathy called a friend after a particularly bad fight she had with Robert in which he had hit her multiple times. Her friend, Eleanor Schwank, insisted Kathy go to the hospital in order to get the assault documented. If nothing else, you know, just to get it on the record.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's on paper.

[Alayna]

And Kathy finally took her friend's advice just a few weeks before her disappearance. The documentation of the assault would have surely been included in the divorce proceedings.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alayna]

Yep. And would have likely swayed things in Kathy's favorite. But that wasn't all Kathy had on her side either. Just a few days before she disappeared, Kathy told friends she had discovered some potentially embarrassing financial information related to Robert and the Durst Organization, and she had planned to send it to someone high up in the company. Oh, don't ever tell people about that stuff you got. By no means is this, like, her fault. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that's so scary.

[Ash]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alayna]

Black information is scary. She was not specific about the details of the information, but she heavily implied that whatever it was, it was going to be very damaging to Robert and the Durst family.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Alayna]

So as Kathy talked to Najimi that afternoon, their conversation was repeatedly interrupted by phone calls from Robert. He screamed at his wife. He demanded she returned to South Salem. And the last time he called was a little past 7pm and the couple argued for a few minutes before Kathy hung up. Up. She told Njimmy, bobby wants me home. He's really upset. Don't go home. So she grabbed a few things she had with her and walked to the door. But before she left, she turned to Njimmy and said, if any something happens to me, check it out. I'm afraid of what Bobby will do.

[Ash]

My God, it's. To think.

[Alayna]

She literally said that.

[Ash]

To think that there are so many women who know what that feels like and that their partner, their person that they decided to marry and that, like, they were so in love with at one point in time and felt like was so in love with them.

[Alayna]

Yep.

[Ash]

To have that crumble and just explode, like, that is so heartbreaking.

[Alayna]

And to say with full, like, your whole chest, if something happens to me, look into it, because it's probably him.

[Ash]

Like.

[Alayna]

Like to know that in your heart that, like, they are capable of that and that, like, potentially they could do that, but that I don't know how to get out of this.

[Ash]

Like, that's awful.

[Alayna]

Holy shit. It's awful in this. Her saying that this is the last time anyone other than Robert Durst saw Kathy Durst. Wow. Four days later, on February 4th, Robert Durst walked into the 20th Precinct on West street in Manhattan and reported his wife missing four days later to Detective Michael Struck. The timing of Durst's report was a little suspicious.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

One more time. According to Durst, he had last seen Kathy on Sunday night when he dropped her off at the train station to return to Manhattan alone. Which meant Robert had waited four days to report his wife missing. Weird. Durst explained to Struck that it was not unusual for Cathy to work three or four days straight in clinical training. So, ding, ding, ding. We're going to use her going to medical school against her, even when she's gone.

[Ash]

Yeah, totally.

[Alayna]

We're going to be like, well, she's just so busy. She'll be gone for three days.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

No, that doesn't make sense. But he said so he hadn't thought of, you know, he hadn't thought she was missing until that day. Still, Struck couldn't help but notice that for a man whose wife had been missing for four days, Robert didn't seem particularly shaken up or overly emotional about it.

[Ash]

Yeah, because he doesn't actually worry.

[Alayna]

Like, straightforward. Here's what's happening. So for Detective Struck, the case only grew more and more curiouser and curiouser in the days that followed.

[Ash]

I like that you scratched your chin.

[Alayna]

I did. You guys couldn't see it, but I did the chin. Like I had a beard.

[Ash]

That was great.

[Alayna]

In his early investigation of Kathy's disappearance, Strzok found two witnesses who claimed to have seen Kathy on February 1, the day after Durst claimed to have dropped her off at the train station, the superintendent and the doorman at the couple's Riverside Drive apartment. Later that same day, someone identifying themselves as Kathy Durst called the associate dean's office at the medical school to say she was terribly ill and wouldn't be making it in. So remember, we're talking. He just said, someday. She's in clinical training for, like, three days straight, and I can't get a hold of her. Oops. She wasn't, so she definitely wasn't.

[Ash]

And also, who was that that called, do you think?

[Alayna]

Exactly. That's what I wonder. And it's here that the trail goes cold, though, at least in terms of law enforcement. For Robert Durst, things were only getting started. By the time she'd gone missing, most of Cassie's friends and family were aware of how bad their relationship was deteriorating, and a lot of them knew about the extent of Robert's abuse. That's why Robert's performance of the alarmed husband in the wake of her disappearance seemed so fake. Disingenuous at best, and at worst, it was coming off suspicious. Yeah, like, he was totally. It was coming off the opposite of how he was trying to. The week after he reported her missing, the New York press picked up on the story, and everyone was clamoring to interview Robert Durst. In the meantime, he'd hired a private detective to track down his wife. Wife who he firmly believed was still alive. He told a reporter from the New New York Post she was going to graduate medical school in three months. That's what makes me sure she's not hanging out at somebody's house, which.

[Ash]

No.

[Alayna]

What do you mean?

[Ash]

You're just trying to embarrass her and, like, make her sound like she runs away from you and yada, yada.

[Alayna]

So whatever concern Robert showed for his missing wife in public was all but absent in private. So it was very clearly an act. Yeah. When he spoke to her increasingly worried friends, he didn't come off like he gave a shit at all. When Robert finally spoke to Jimmy a few weeks later, he said, by the way, Gilbert, have you seen Kathy? And the tone was casual, as though he was asking after an old friend he hadn't seen in a long time.

[Ash]

Not his actual wife, not his wife.

[Alayna]

Who had mysteriously disappeared.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Alayna]

Remember, we're talking a few weeks later, he sees a friend, and he's like, hey, by the way, have you seen Kathy?

[Ash]

Like, what?

[Alayna]

Like, she's been missing for weeks.

[Ash]

And he just sees it, like, in passing, like you're.

[Alayna]

You're talking about, like, oh, like, have you seen My, like, that's so weird.

[Ash]

Like, have you seen that, that coat that I wore the other day? I can't find it.

[Alayna]

It's so strange.

[Ash]

He creeps me out.

[Alayna]

So he's just asking. He's acting so weird about this. Like, so weird. And within a few months, he had retreated from the public spotlight and never gave another interview or spoke publicly about Kathy again. He also stopped returning Detective Struck's calls, which only made the investigator more suspicious.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Alayna]

And in the few months that had passed since she was initially reported missing, the supposed witness sightings from the doorman and the superintendent proved less certain than they had been when Strzok reinterviewed them in the spring. Both men confessed that they'd really only seen her from the back and from a distance. So neither could be certain anyone in New York City. They couldn't even be certain that it.

[Ash]

Was Kathy Durst from the back at a distance is crazy to be like, oh, yeah, I saw her the other day.

[Alayna]

Yeah, yikes.

[Ash]

They, I'm sure, like speculation, obviously, but I'm sure they were intimidated.

[Alayna]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By somebody.

[Alayna]

By somebody. And we're gonna end it there because we, we're gonna do two parts of this. The second part is going to have even more strange stuff in it. Yeah.

[Ash]

There's a lot to follow in this case, so I do think it's a good idea.

[Alayna]

Yeah. There's a lot of names. There's a lot of stuff going on. And there's a lot of. A lot of jinxy stuff going on.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Alayna]

So of course, of course. And we'll get to that. Don't worry.

[Ash]

We'll get to that.

[Alayna]

We'll get to that whole thing. The of course heard around the world.

[Ash]

So in the meantime, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird, but not so weird that you don't throw an of course around. Of course. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Alayna]

Last year, Long crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe, with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution.

[Ash]

We continue to find ourselves at an impasse.

[Alayna]

I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spotlight. And one question still lingers. Did Karen reed kill John O'Keefe?

[Ash]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Alayna]

How does it feel to be a cop killer?

[Ash]

Karen?

[Alayna]

I'm Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast Karen the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is. Is in the balance, and it shouldn't be. I just want people to go back.

[Ash]

To who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Alayna]

Listen to episodes of Karen the Retrial exclusively and ad free on Wondery Plus.