Episode 671: The Murder of Carol Stuart

Summary

Morbid Podcast Summary: Episode 671 – The Murder of Carol Stewart

Introduction

In Episode 671 of Morbid, hosted by Ash and Elena from the Morbid Network | Wondery, the hosts delve into the harrowing true crime case of Carol Stewart, a promising young law student from Boston, whose life was tragically cut short. This detailed summary captures the key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn throughout the episode, providing an engaging narrative for those unfamiliar with the story.

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1. Background of Carol Stewart

Carol Ann Dematti, born on March 26, 1959, in Medford, Massachusetts, was the epitome of a dedicated and ambitious student. Growing up in a loving, extended family environment, Carol excelled academically, attending St. James School, a Catholic institution where she was known as a ray of light in the administrative office each morning ([04:33] Ash).

Carol's aspirations were clear—she dreamed of marrying a good husband, living in the suburbs, and raising a wonderful family. Described by her childhood friend Robert as someone who could connect with everyone, from jocks to geeks, Carol was seen as a pleasant and approachable individual ([06:19] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"What teenage Carol wanted most of all was to be married to a good husband, living in the suburbs with a couple terrific kids, happily ever after." ([05:55] Ash)

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2. The Relationship with Chuck Stewart

At 15, Carol began working at Driftwood, a local restaurant, under the supervision of her father, Justo D., who served as a part-time bartender. It was here that Carol met Chuck Stewart, one of the cooks. Chuck, characterized by his rugged handsomeness and athleticism, pursued Carol with determination, despite being a less academically inclined individual.

Their relationship blossomed over the years, leading to their marriage on October 13, 1985, at St. James Church—the same venue where Carol’s parents were wed. By the time of their marriage, Chuck had advanced his career, earning a substantial income, allowing them to purchase a home in the upscale area of Reading, 25 miles from Austin ([22:02] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"With Chuck, it was always flowers here, flowers there." ([19:56] Ash)

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3. Mounting Tensions and Personal Struggles

Despite appearing as the ideal suburban couple—with Chuck excelling in his managerial role and Carol poised to become a successful TAG tax lawyer—their relationship was rife with underlying tensions. Carol grew increasingly frustrated by the disparity in their professional achievements and earnings. While Chuck enjoyed a prosperous career without formal education, Carol faced financial strains despite her academic accomplishments ([23:43] Ash).

Chuck's behavioral patterns raised concerns among Carol's friends and family. His insatiable materialism, combining high-end purchases with accumulating credit card debt, and his controlling tendencies—such as insisting Carol use a car phone to "keep tabs" on her movements—signaled deeper issues within their marriage ([25:38] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"With Chuck, it just seems like another way for Chuck to be the dominant one in their relationship and hold his success over Carol's head." ([25:57] Ash)

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4. The Night of the Murder

On the evening of October 23, 1989, Carol and Chuck were returning from a child birthing class at Brigham and Women's Hospital. During their drive home, Chuck became agitated due to a severe traffic jam. Choosing to navigate through the dangerous Roxbury neighborhood—a decision that alarmed Carol—they encountered a young black man who forcibly entered their car. The assailant shot Carol point-blank in the head and Chuck in the stomach before fleeing the scene ([39:03] Ash).

Chuck managed to call 911, providing a vague description of the attacker and the events that transpired. The Massachusetts State Police responded swiftly, but the chaotic nature of the call and limited information made the investigation challenging ([40:16] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"The shooter had used a .38 caliber handgun." ([40:54] Ash)

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5. Investigation and Police Response

The initial response from law enforcement was marked by urgency, with Mayor Ray Flynn advocating for aggressive action against gun violence. However, disparities quickly emerged in how the Stewart case was prioritized compared to other violent crimes, particularly those affecting the black community in Roxbury. Critics argued that the police focused disproportionately on finding justice for the white Stewarts while neglecting similar cases involving black victims ([44:07] Ash).

Investigators arrested Alan Swanson based on a flimsy description that fit racial stereotypes prevalent at the time. Despite being cleared of unrelated charges, Swanson was held without substantial evidence linking him to the Stewart murders—a move that fueled accusations of racial bias and police misconduct ([48:57] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"People felt as long as all this violence was in the greater Roxbury neighborhood, it's not going to affect us." ([44:22] Ash)

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6. Arrest and Release of Willie Bennett

Amidst growing frustration over the lack of progress, police arrested Willie Bennett during a traffic stop. Bennett, a 39-year-old with a history of violent crimes, confessed to the shootings but later retracted his statements, leading to his release due to insufficient evidence. His brief impasse highlighted the flawed investigative processes and the desperation to close the case quickly ([49:27] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"The Boston Police Department was using Swanson as a convenient scapegoat to appease the public." ([48:23] Ash)

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7. Matthew Stewart's Confession and Chuck's Suicide

The case took a dramatic turn when Matthew Stewart, Chuck’s brother, presented a conflicting narrative. He revealed that Chuck had approached him weeks before the murders with plans to steal Carol's jewelry for insurance fraud. When the initial scheme failed, Chuck devised a new plan, leading to the fateful night in Mission Hill. Matthew handed over a bag containing Carol's purse and a .38 caliber handgun, which were later linked to the murder scene ([62:13] Ash).

Facing the gravity of the evidence against him and unable to escape the repercussions of his actions, Chuck Stewart took his own life by jumping off the Tobin Bridge. A note was found in his car, expressing love for his family but offering no explanation for his actions, leaving authorities to piece together the true motive behind the murders ([64:51] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"Whatever this new accusation is, it has beaten me. I've been sapped of my strength." ([64:34] Ash)

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8. Aftermath and Impact on the Community

The revelation that Chuck was the murderer rather than the initially suspected Willie Bennett had profound implications for the Boston community. It exposed deep-seated racial biases within the police department and highlighted the challenges faced by black residents in receiving equitable protection and justice. Suffolk County District Attorney Rachel Rollins, in 2019, acknowledged the lasting trauma inflicted by the case, emphasizing the need for institutional reforms to ensure equal treatment for all community members ([67:14] Ash).

Notable Quote:

"The murder of Carol and Christopher Dematti precipitated a chain of events that created deep trauma beyond one family." ([68:08] Ash)

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9. Conclusions

The tragic murder of Carol Stewart and her unborn child, Christopher, serves as a stark reminder of the intersection between personal turmoil and systemic injustice. While the case was eventually closed with Chuck Stewart identified as the murderer, the path to that conclusion was marred by racial prejudice, flawed investigative practices, and a community grappling with internal divisions.

Ash and Elena conclude the episode by reflecting on the importance of empathy, honesty, and moral integrity, urging listeners to treat one another with kindness and to confront societal wrongs with transparency and accountability.

Notable Quote:

"Be good people to your fellow people. Especially right now." ([70:31] Elena)

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Final Thoughts

Episode 671 of Morbid meticulously unpacks a complex and emotionally charged case, weaving together personal narratives, investigative shortcomings, and broader societal issues. Through their compassionate and incisive storytelling, Ash and Elena provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the events surrounding Carol Stewart's murder and its lasting impact on the Boston community.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, it's Ash here. Ready to share a little secret. Have you heard of Wondery Plus? With ad free episodes and one week early access, it's like having an all access pass to our lighthearted nightmare. So come join us on the dark side and try Wondery. Today. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a morbid network podcast from the creator of Think Twice, Michael Jackson. Listen to the new Audible original Final Thoughts Draw Jerry Springer. Once known as the king of trash tv, Springer was the notorious talk show host whose wild daytime program transfixed audiences everywhere. Join Springer's personal and professional life as the ratings soared and the reviews soured. Here revealing interviews about the choices we make and the regrets we may have. Listen to the new trashy and true Audible original Final thoughts Jerry Springer. By going to audible.com Springer we get support from Amazon Prime. Hey weirdos, you know what's literally the most amazing thing ever? Amazon Prime. Listen up. Cause this is gonna blow your minds. With prime, you get faster than lightning delivery on like everything. We're talking millions of items. Literally everything you could ever want or need. But wait, there's more. There's more than everything you could want or need. Prime video lets you binge all those shows we're obsessed with. And Amazon music has all the bops for your next dance party. I have been ordering a little bit on prime lately. I had to get some earplugs the other night because my husband was a snorri Snore snoring. And I said please send them to me the very next day. And they did. That was great. Loved that. Whether you're a total bookworm, a gaming fanatic, or you just really like trying new things or sleeping through the night without your husband snoring waking you up, Prime's got your back. Ebooks for days, free in game goodies and everything you need to make your next DIY project. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com prime to get more out of whatever you're into.

[Elena]

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena.

[Ash]

I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And this is morbid.

[Ash]

Hey, what's up? Hello.

[Elena]

I think there is lawnmowers happening outside and there's not a lot we can do.

[Ash]

I think you should run out there, run in front of them and say.

[Elena]

Hey, yeah, stop it. I can pull the happening and just lay in front of it. I.

[Ash]

That's not what I said at all. I told you to tell them to Stop. You're like happening.

[Elena]

No, don't happening.

[Ash]

Please don't happening. I'm not doing this show alone, so.

[Elena]

No, I will not happening.

[Ash]

Hey, hey, hey. She's not happening.

[Elena]

It's true. She's not. She's tired. She's not happening.

[Ash]

No. This is our last recording before we get to take a little breakie. Yeah. You won't know that we're taking a breakie.

[Elena]

You won't know we're taking a breakie.

[Ash]

Because we breakeyed ourselves to get all these recordings in.

[Elena]

Yeah, you gotta bulk record to get a breakie.

[Ash]

Yep. So in these streets. In these streets.

[Elena]

So we don't know when this comes out, but there's really nothing pertinent that will affect that.

[Ash]

Yeah, I think it comes out like.

[Elena]

Mid May, so you can pre order the paperback version of the Butcher Game.

[Ash]

There you go.

[Elena]

Looking for that paperback out there. I see you. I see you. You've been waiting for that package.

[Ash]

Season is coming paperback. She's bringing paperb.

[Elena]

I like how you had to go.

[Ash]

It's my favorite part of the song. It's beach season almost and vacation season. And you need a paperback. Yeah. That's in your beach bag.

[Elena]

It's a beach read for sure.

[Ash]

My kind of beach read. Yeah, I like it.

[Elena]

So go get it. You can get [e-mail] it'll lead you to all the places you can get it.

[Ash]

Let's go.

[Elena]

The Barnes and Nobles. The. All the places.

[Ash]

Friggin. Friggin potty.

[Elena]

Friggin potty with your paperback.

[Ash]

Friggin potty, kid. Well, actually that kind of of transitions into what we're going to be talking about today. We got a Boston hometown case.

[Elena]

Oh my God, it's Boston.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Not one to be proud of, I'm sure.

[Ash]

No, I was actually just gonna say this is a very devastating case. Oh, it's awful. But it's probably a case that I think if you're from Boston or like anywhere around there, you're probably familiar with.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Or if you're a fan of Law and Order. I think they. I remember seeing an episode that was very, very similar to this.

[Elena]

Oh, okay.

[Ash]

So today we're going to be talking about the murder of Carol Stewart, who seemed like a really cool person.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

And it bums me out. So let's start at the beginning, though. Carol Ann Dematti was born March 26, 1959, in Medford.

[Elena]

Medford.

[Ash]

Medford, Massachusetts. She was the second of two children born to Justeau and Evelyn DeMotte, she grew up in a multi family home, which is, you know, all homes around here. Pretty much, yeah. Her aunt Rosemary actually lived on the second floor of the house. And there was a lot of extended family, like in their neighborhood, around their neighborhood. So she and her brother always had a really warm, loving support network all over the world.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

Yeah. So at the time, Medford was a heavily Italian working class suburb of Boston, which meant that religion and the church were pretty central to the lives of a lot of residents at the time. Carol went to St. James School, which was a Catholic school at that time run by nuns. She was a really, really good student. She was well liked by her, her teachers, her classmates, friends, of course, pretty much everybody agreed that she could be whatever she wanted to be when she was done with school.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

She was at the very top of her class and all the classes that she was taking were AP or honors.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which is insane.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I don't know how people do that.

[Elena]

Not easy.

[Ash]

No. And on top of all that, she also would volunteer and she worked in the administrative office before school every morning.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So she woke up early to school before she even had to.

[Elena]

Oh, so she's really doing the damn thing.

[Ash]

The school's headmaster, Sal Todaro, said she'd come into the office in the morning and it was like a ray of light coming in. Oh, I know. But according to author Joe Sharkey, who wrote the book Deadly Greed about this case, what teenage Carol wanted most of all was to be, quote, married to a good husband, living in the suburbs with a couple terrific kids, happily ever after. Which is really cute and so relatable.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

This goal, I'm sure for a lot of reasons is what people remembered most about Carol. Her childhood friend Robert said overall her purpose in life was to raise a good family. She got along with jocks, burnouts, wimps, geeks, headmasters, everyone. She was a very pleasant person, painless to speak to, able to bridge the gap and circle in all different groups.

[Elena]

Who sounds really cool, just sounds like an all around awesome person to have around.

[Ash]

Yeah. Just like didn't give a shit who you were. Just wanted to shoot, like wanted to chat with you.

[Elena]

Let's go.

[Ash]

And would, would help you out Now. When Carol was 15, her father found her a part time job at Driftwood, a restaurant. A restaurant on the main street of Rivia Beach. Ria Kid Ria is just a little ways away from Medford. Justo D also worked at the restaurant as a part time bartender at night. So it was a pretty Good opportunity for his daughter to get some work experience while he could also keep an eye on her.

[Elena]

Ah, I see.

[Ash]

Yeah, it was pretty perfect.

[Elena]

Yeah, it really is.

[Ash]

And a few years later, when Carol turned 18 and now she could serve drinks, she moved up to work as a server. She was really great because, again, she's a people person. People loved her, and her co workers loved her as well. Coworker Christine Barrada said, when I met Carol, I met a big sister. She taught me how to drive. She taught me how to wear makeup, taught me about clothes and hair. In a way, she really helped me grow up a. I know.

[Elena]

It's really sweet.

[Ash]

By the time she graduated high school in 1978, Carol had saved nearly $10,000 from her waitressing job.

[Elena]

Holy.

[Ash]

And she planned to put that towards school. She'd already been accepted to Boston University. And by the way, that would be a little more than $49,000, I was just gonna say.

[Elena]

And by today's standards, that's even more.

[Ash]

49,000 by today's standard.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

That's incredible.

[Ash]

It's insane. At first, Evelyn and Justeau questioned if college was really the best choice for their daughter. But Carol was able to be, you know, successful in.

[Elena]

She was like, listen, I can make it happen.

[Ash]

Yeah. She very much wanted to. She argued that BU was a Jesuit school so she could still be involved in the religious activities that they wanted her to, you know, be involved in. And to help ease their minds even more, she agreed that she would live at home for the first three years and commute into the city for classes. Even though she really wanted to live on campus and kind of experience that freedom.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

She just knew it was unlikely that she was gonna win that battle.

[Elena]

Makes sense.

[Ash]

So when she first started bu, Carol had hoped to become a teacher, since she always loved being around children. But by sophomore year, her sophomore year in college, there were widespread layoffs and pretty poor funding for education in this area. So that made the prospect of becoming a teacher a bit less attractive. It wasn't going to, you know, really make her a lot of money or anything like that.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

So Carol changed her mind, and she decided to pursue a law degree instead.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah. Obviously pretty different from teaching.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But her objective was similar. Whatever her career was going to be, she wanted it to help people.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Make a difference in their lives. Yeah. So in 1978, she started seeing her first serious boyfriend, Chuck Stewart, one of the cooks from Driftwood.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

A restaurant romance.

[Elena]

We. We love to see it.

[Ash]

Sometimes when they met in the summer of 1978, she was still seeing her high school boyfriend, but she, and, you know, she wasn't really on the lookout for somebody new. But as soon as she met Truck, she was immediately interested. He was also a local. He was born and raised in Rivia, just a few miles outside of Boston. And also, like Carol, he came from a pretty decent Catholic home, surrounded by adoring, doting family members. You know, you know, all sweet Bostonians. Their families run deep.

[Elena]

It's true.

[Ash]

We really do. According to those who knew him best, Chuck was, quote, ruggedly handsome.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

Athletic. But not the kind of student that Carol became.

[Elena]

Oof.

[Ash]

Yeah. When they started dating, Chuck told Carol that he was attending Brown University on a football scholarship, but that he had a dropout after being sidelined with an injury. Like a lot of claims that Chuck would make over the years, this was a lie.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

One of many that he told in order to make himself seem more impressive than he really was.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

In reality, he had never been a good student. Definitely not a good enough student to go to Brown University. And even if he had been accepted to Brown, they didn't offer football scholarships. Oh, no.

[Elena]

Chuck. Yeah.

[Ash]

So he was. There was lots of layers that didn't work out with that lie.

[Elena]

You got caught.

[Ash]

Yeah. The truth was he attended the local Vogue Tech School and had gone to Salem State University for one semester before dropping out within that first semester.

[Elena]

And it's like, man, I, I don't know a lot about this case right now, but I'm like, that's, it's fine, that's fine. Yeah. Just be honest, man. It's okay. Like the people who like you are going to like you for who you.

[Ash]

Are when college is college, not everybody gets accepted to college.

[Elena]

Or people shouldn't be like, liking you based on where you went to school.

[Ash]

And Salem State is also a great school. Absolutely fantastic location if we love Salem. But he, he wanted to be more than what he saw that as.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

So Carol and Chuck, like I said, they shared a lot of things in common. But there were also some stark differences in the ways that they'd grown up. Both were from solidly middle class families, but Chuck's family had struggled financially at times, and he was always a little ashamed of that. By the time he reached high school, they were living in a modest two story home two blocks from the school that he and his brothers went to. But they had previously lived in public housing. And that was something Chuck was really embarrassed about.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

And with four boys Living in the family, the house was kind of always in a state of disarray because boys are pretty messy boys typically. One of Chuck's friends said that the way Chuck described it was too many kids, too much yelling and fighting. The place was always a house.

[Elena]

Oh.

[Ash]

So he just. He didn't like the way he grew up.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which, you know, that's.

[Elena]

It is what it is.

[Ash]

To each their own.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I'm sure his parents did their best.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

According to some who knew him, Chuck's attitude towards his upbringing and shame surrounding his family really made a lot of sense. And it just pointed to his arrogant and usually snobby personality. One former friend said, he always let you know that he thought he was better than you. O which, like, that's not a great friend.

[Elena]

Not great.

[Ash]

Because he was the oldest and the firstborn. He was, quote, lavished with attention before it was gradually withdrawn as the Stewart house became crowded with children.

[Elena]

Oh, that. And that's tough. That is when you're a kid. Yeah, that's tough. As an adult, you get the fuck over it. But as a kid, it's tough when you have all the attention. I'm sure.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I was the youngest, so I don't relate to this at all. Like, I was the one sucking up all the attention. So. Sorry. Siblings, I mean.

[Ash]

But then I came around when you were 10.

[Elena]

That's true.

[Ash]

So.

[Elena]

But that could. I'm sure that's tough when you get all the attention as a kid and that it's kind of has to be divvied up.

[Ash]

Yeah. I'm sure. You know, I wouldn't know. Like me, I don't know. I'm like an only child, but also not. So I'm like, I'm in a weird place in my family.

[Elena]

Yeah, you do have a strange place.

[Ash]

My mom's only child. But then with you guys, you were all like siblings to me because I, like, grew up in that household.

[Elena]

You feel like the youngest of that.

[Ash]

I feel like the youngest of that. The only of my mom and then the oldest on my dad's side. So I kind of have, like, all the boxes ticked.

[Elena]

You really do.

[Ash]

It's weird. So, yeah, I don't know a lot about that. But as far as some were concerned, the lack of his parents constant adoration and attention left Chuck with a sense of frustration and kind of like a mild bitterness that he would carry with him the rest of his life.

[Elena]

Yeah, you gotta drop.

[Ash]

Which is crazy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And there was also the matter of where he grew up. Unlike Medford, which is easily accessible from Boston and, you know, points north. Revere was a little bit isolated for a lot of its history. In the summer, the railroad brought tons and tons of tourists to the beach, to the boardwalk area. But otherwise, the city was difficult to get to and mostly operated independently from the cities, from surrounding cities and towns.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Yeah. By the 1970s, the beach also wasn't really a popular place for tourists to go, and the area was just kind of in a general decline that got worse throughout the years. For somebody like Chuck, who always wanted to be seen as this very successful guy, his hometown became a source of shame, which is stupid. Yeah.

[Elena]

It's like, come on.

[Ash]

Plenty of people come from plenty of places that aren't fantastic.

[Elena]

And it's like, you didn't. You didn't build the city.

[Ash]

And also.

[Elena]

Okay. Like, no one's blaming you for it.

[Ash]

Revere's fine.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Ash]

But as soon as he was able to, he got himself out of Revere because he thought it was awful. Only to return for short visits with friends and families. Now, when they got together, to a lot of people around them, Chuck and Carol's relationship seemed a matter of convenience more than anything else. Carol's high school boyfriend had gone off to college, and long distance wasn't working out for them. But Chuck, on the other hand, was right there at the restaurant. He seemed to. He seemed very determined to catch Carol's eye and do whatever he could to get her to go out with him.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

Christine Barrada said he wanted her. That was it. He went after her.

[Elena]

Whoa.

[Ash]

Yeah. Which sometimes that can be a really cute start to a love story.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And other times, I'm guessing it's not here. It could be a red flag.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Carol's decision to date Chuck was actually a major point of contention between her and her dad.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

Yeah. Her dad obviously believed that his daughter deserved the best of everything.

[Elena]

Of course.

[Ash]

And as far as he could tell, Chuck Stewart wasn't really the best.

[Elena]

I mean, that's. That's tough.

[Ash]

That is tough.

[Elena]

That's tough as a parent. It's tough as the kid.

[Ash]

Yeah. It's tough for everybody. It's definitely tough for Chuck.

[Elena]

You can see both sides of that. Yeah.

[Ash]

But regardless of how her father and others felt about Chuck, Carol was determined to make her own decisions. And she decided she wanted to give this relationship with Chuck a chance, which is her right. Chuck a chance.

[Elena]

You know, give Chuck a chance.

[Ash]

To her friends and her co workers, especially the female ones, Carol's decision Made sense. Chuck wasn't really brimming with personality and charm, but he was good looking, he was well mannered. And most importantly, in the beginning, he adored Carol. And it seemed that the more Carol's father protested and complained, the more attentive and adoring Chuck became. Almost like he was trying to win that top spot in Carol's life.

[Elena]

That stresses me out in every way that you can conceivably stress me out. Thinking of somebody doing that, it just won't happen.

[Ash]

We won't allow it. But that's the thing. Sometimes as a parent, I think you can go too hard.

[Elena]

Well, that's.

[Ash]

And you send them right in the other direction.

[Elena]

How do you know how. How do you know what line is the line that tips it that way? Well, and it can be so hard.

[Ash]

I think the scary thing too is that it can be one line for your.

[Elena]

For one kid.

[Ash]

Well, one line for your kid, but another line for the partner.

[Elena]

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[Ash]

You know, like, you might push them in a different direction too.

[Elena]

Oh, man.

[Ash]

Which is scary.

[Elena]

I hate it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Every day I make countless decisions, but one of the easiest and most important is securing my home with Simplisafe. The moment I arm my system, I know my family and everything that I work for are protected. Whether I'm stepping out for the day, settling in for the night, that small action really delivers something priceless. Peace of mind. I can focus on what matters, rest easier, and go about my day knowing that Simplisafe has my back in a crisis. And guys, I want you to have that same confidence too. The best part of day is arming that system. I just know that everything is good. And if I even doubt for a second that everything is good, I can check in on my cameras with Simplisafe. Millions of Americans enjoy the new standard in home security and greater peace of mind every time they arm their system when heading out in the morning or when they're locking up each night. Traditional security systems only take action after somebody's already broken in and that's too late. Simplisafe's Active Guard Outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they even happen. Visit simplisafe.commorbid to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com morbid there's no safe like Simplisafe. This show is sponsored by Liquid iv. You guys, it's almost hot Girl. Summer. Or hot. Whoever you are, Summer. It could be A hot summer for everybody. The point is, it's going to be hot and you need to stay hydrated. Prepping for a big summer means planning to stay hydrated and hydrated so that you can get the most out of your body and live more during those warm summer months. Visit liquidiv.com and maximize your summer plans with sugar free hydration featuring the new Rat Raspberry lemonade hydration multiplier. Get 20 off your first order with code Morbid at checkout. Me personally, I am obsessed with Liquid iv. Drew and I were just in Disney World, as you know, and honey, it was hot in those Florida streets and we were sweating a lot and running around the park a lot. So you know what we did to replenish ourselves? We brought along Liquid iv. And it was so easy. Every time we needed to, I just put a little stick in my fanny pack, whipped it out, tear pour, and guess what? I lived more. Break the mold and start your own ritual. Just one stick in 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. Get ready for summer with extraordinary hydration from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to Liquid I.com and use code morbid at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with code morbid@liquid I.com. well, one friend said Carol liked that he was different from other guys, that he called all the time. He'd send her little gifts, little tokens. He was very good at expressing love. With Chuck, it was always flowers here, flowers there.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

Which is nice.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I mean, that's nice, but can also be love bombing. It's really hard to be a woman.

[Elena]

Because you don't know.

[Ash]

You just never know.

[Elena]

Yeah. You really don't.

[Ash]

Yeah. As Carol worked her way through undergrad, her relationship with Chuck intensified and got a lot more serious than really anybody had expected. By the time Carol graduated from BU in June of 1981, she and Chuck were talking about getting married. But Carol insisted that she wanted to wait until she was done with law school, which she was going to be starting at Suffolk in the fall.

[Elena]

Good for her.

[Ash]

I know. She did the damn thing. Chuck was disappointed with Carol's decision to wait. He really wanted to get married when she finished at bu but ultimately he was like, I. I can't force you to marry me, so we'll follow through with that plan.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

In the meantime, he decided finally to start taking his own future more seriously. And he started looking for a better job. Until that point, he actually had dreams of Opening his own restaurant. But with Carol starting law school, he had to accept that that dream of restaurant ownership was a bit unrealistic in the short term.

[Elena]

Restaurants, from what I've heard, are. It's a tough, incredibly tough to like when you're like, buying one and owning it. Yeah, Yeah. I can't imagine that it can go.

[Ash]

Really well, but the statistics are that it doesn't.

[Elena]

And when it goes not well, even if it's just going kind of well, you are bleeding money and you have.

[Ash]

To pour a lot into it. Like, that's not just like, oh, I'm gonna have a restaurant and hire people to work there. It's like it becomes your life.

[Elena]

It absolutely does.

[Ash]

So he realized, for probably a lot of those reasons, that it just wasn't the time to. To go down that path.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So instead, he made his way to downtown Boston, where he found work as a manager in training at Edward F. Caucus and Sons, A furrier on Newberry street in Back Bay. Very flouncy area. Excuse you, I know a furia, which I don't love. Don't refer.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

When he applied for the job, Chuck had no management experience and no experience with high end clothing either. But the owner just took a liking to him, and soon Chuck found himself on the path to a pretty promising career.

[Elena]

I'm always amazed at the. The amount of stories we hear that have that as part of that experience doing either of experience, like, but, but it was just something about them that the, the person like the boss was like, I just hired him. I just liked him.

[Ash]

I just liked him.

[Elena]

You're like, you know, what the is that? It's like, what is that about someone?

[Ash]

I think in cases like this, I think like, where it's somebody who has a sinister vibe, like, hidden within them, they study other people.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I can see that they, like, know how to charm people.

[Elena]

Yeah, you're right.

[Ash]

You know what I mean?

[Elena]

I think that's absolutely part of it.

[Ash]

And I think in good people, it's just a cool quality that they have.

[Elena]

Yeah. In bad people, it's a scary one.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Well, true to Carol's plan, she and Chuck did indeed get married on October 13, 1985, the year of Yabe, in a large ceremony at St. James Church, the same church where her parents got married. So that was special.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By the time they married, Chuck had moved up at the at Caucus and Sons and was making around $50,000 a year, which would be about $148,000 today. So pretty good.

[Elena]

Damn good.

[Ash]

Yeah. And they were able to move out of Medford and buy a house in a more upscale area called reading. It's about 25 miles from Austin. It's a really nice area. From the outside, Carol and Chuck's marriage seemed like an ideal match. The more. Like, the older they got and the more time they spent together. He was a leading salesman and manager. She was on track to becoming a successful TAG tax lawyer. They had two labs, they had a pool.

[Elena]

They were really going for it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, they were very all American. You know, like that. That couple that everybody aspires to be.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

The picture of suburban success.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

But behind the scenes, Carol was already having doubts.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

She was frustrated that despite her years of training and all the work she'd put into her getting her education, she was entering the workforce making a lot less than her husband, who had no training and virtually no education to speak of. Damn, that can be frustrating.

[Elena]

Yeah. I mean, yeah.

[Ash]

She's like, I worked really hard and I'm making a lot less money.

[Elena]

She worked her ass off, and she's.

[Ash]

Probably in a lot of debt, too.

[Elena]

And she's worked her ass off, like, her whole life. She worked her ass off through high school, everything.

[Ash]

And he just was charming and got this job. Yeah, that's. That is frustrating.

[Elena]

That would. That I could get a little resentful of that.

[Ash]

Yeah. And obviously you want to be happy for your partner, but there were other things at play here.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Joe Sharkey wrote, it was the first time anyone had heard Carol disparage Chuck's education. And to make matters worse, Chuck always had a way of working his salary into conversations when they went out with friends. Yeah, that's gross.

[Elena]

We don't love that.

[Ash]

We don't do that. That's not appropriate dinner table talk.

[Elena]

No, it's not.

[Ash]

So Carol might not have seen it or maybe just didn't want to, but there were also other things about Chuck's personality that. That her friends and family were starting to find concerning her friend. Robert said there was just something not quite right about Chuck. It wasn't natural. It's hard to put your finger on it. He seemed smooth enough. A little much with the blown back hair, but nicely tied together anyway. But not natural. You know, I'm kind of obsessed with that a little much.

[Elena]

With the blown back hair.

[Ash]

He's like, I like that guy's hairstyle.

[Elena]

I like that little roast in the middle.

[Ash]

He's like, I'm just telling you something wasn't right.

[Elena]

That it's New England to The core. So that guy's hair, it's the most Massachusetts thing ever.

[Ash]

Ever heard anything.

[Elena]

I guess he was all right. Looked kind of stupid with that hair, but, like. Yeah.

[Ash]

But others found his Chuck's seemingly, like, insatiable materialism to be a little off putting.

[Elena]

I can understand that.

[Ash]

I get that. At the time, people felt it should have been Carol who was, you know, interested in shopping and her appearance, and they thought it was weird that it was Chuck who cared a lot more about those things. And even weirder, stranger that he made no secret of dismissing Carol's wants in favor for his own.

[Elena]

Ooh.

[Ash]

Yeah. It wasn't just that he seemed wildly materialistic to some. It just seemed like another way for Chuck to be the dominant one in their relationship and kind of like hold his success over Carol's head.

[Elena]

That makes sense.

[Ash]

Yeah. The more Carol's friends got to know Chuck, the more they found that something in their relationship was just disturbing. But like Carol's friend Robert, they couldn't really put their finger on exactly what it was. Was. Because it wasn't that Chuck was abusive in any recognizable way. Carol doted on her husband endlessly, though, and he didn't seem to reciprocate, which, like, that could be tough to see.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And then there was the matter of him constantly keeping tabs on her. He wasn't what any of her friends would say was overly jealous, but he, quote, always wanted to know exactly where his wife was, which, like, yeah, you can see that as nefarious. I think it was probably in the way he went about it. Because it could also just be protective.

[Elena]

Absolutely. It can. And it's. I think it. It can easily look nefarious. In with the power of hindsight.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

I think that's where it gets a little easier to look at things that's like, huh. That seemingly innocuous thing was a little weird.

[Ash]

Yeah. Looking back. Yeah. And also in tandem with other things.

[Elena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

By the late 80s, when Carol started commuting from Reading to her job in the city, Chuck bought her a cell phone so that she could keep in touch with him during the commute. Another one of Carol's friends, Mark Brady, remembered she always had this damn car phone. And as soon as we got in the car, she'd pick it up and report in. Which. Like that. If I. If I was with a friend who constantly was like, oh, I have to let my husband know where I am.

[Elena]

I have to call. I'd be like.

[Ash]

And report where I am.

[Elena]

I'd Be like, are you okay?

[Ash]

Like, is everything cool?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And that. It sounds like her friends were like, is that.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, they're just like, is something going on here?

[Ash]

Yeah. So by 1987, Chuck also insisted that Carol find a new job closer to home. You don't get to tell me where I work.

[Elena]

I'm sorry. Excuse me.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

No, no, I don't like that.

[Ash]

No. That's a discussion that you can have as a couple of, like, would this make more sense?

[Elena]

Nope.

[Ash]

For us as a couple, as a husband, you don't get to tell your wife where she works.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's a no for me.

[Ash]

No, as a partner, you don't. So she did, though, she took a job as a tax lawyer for, I think, think it's Kaner's Publishing and Newton.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

The house turned out to be an improvement over her last job. But to Chuck's disappointment, not long after she started there, they insisted that all of their tax staff needed additional education. So they enrolled Carol in night classes at bu. Oh, yeah, he didn't love that.

[Elena]

I'm sure he didn't.

[Ash]

Carol, though, had always loved education, and she was really loving these new classes, which in turn kind of seemed to inspire this like, like, new self confidence in her that her friends and family hadn't seen before. She was doing well in her classes, but friends also were noticing that she was standing up to Chuck more often, even over, like, trivial matters.

[Elena]

Interesting.

[Ash]

On one occasion, when he and his friends came home drunk from a hockey game, she demanded that his friends leave immediately. She was like, I'm not having this in my house. Get out of here.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which was very unlike her. And I mean, it was super late at night.

[Elena]

Like, yeah, you stand up. Up.

[Ash]

Yeah. Chuck protested, but Carol eventually won the argument and the other men left.

[Elena]

Good.

[Ash]

A few days later, she confessed to a friend that she was being unreasonable, but she was also proud of herself for standing up to him.

[Elena]

Yeah, sometimes you. You assert yourself in a way that you're like, probably wasn't the situation, but I did it.

[Ash]

Yeah. I think especially when you're not used to asserting yourself and you finally find the nerve to. It might not.

[Elena]

It's something small.

[Ash]

It might not be the right time.

[Elena]

Yeah, but you did it.

[Ash]

So as the 80s came to a close, Chuck and Carol's relationship had grown more and more tense. And at the same time, Chuck seemed to be spending a lot more money, like, on things like clothing and jewelry than he ever had. While Carol bought all her clothes at, you know, mid tier stores, like Filene's Basement.

[Elena]

TBT and Filene's Basement.

[Ash]

And she shopped at Marshalls. Chuck bought all of his custom suits from Brook Brothers, Brooks Brothers, and other similarly expensive stores.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Brooks Brothers is like, on Newberry Street. Yeah, it's like, oh, yeah.

[Elena]

Caliber for sure.

[Ash]

So Carol didn't really complain about it, but there were times when she became exasperated while venting to her friends about how much he paid for things. And she was like, I don't understand why he needs twelve hundred dollar sweaters. Yeah. Most times, though, she just shrugged it off and said something about how he knew clothes better than she did. What she didn't know, though, was that his spending habits were racking up very serious credit card debt.

[Elena]

Oh, no.

[Ash]

And delinquent payments were also beginning to pile up. It turned out that Chuck's spending and mounting debt weren't the only secret he was keeping from his wife either. I'm sure we all saw this one coming.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

In the summer of 1989, he took a liking to the new summer employee at cauca.

[Elena]

This. Oh, no.

[Ash]

A college student.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

Named Debbie Allen. Like Carol, Debbie had been a dedicated student who was doing really well in school and had taken the job at the furrier for the summer with plans to go back to Brown University to finish her senior year in the fall. She had a boyfriend at the time and didn't express interest in Chuck, but he seemed determined to, quote, unquote, obtain her.

[Elena]

Oh, stop it.

[Ash]

Just like he had all those other things in life that he thought were out of his reach.

[Elena]

I hate it.

[Ash]

He is like, he's compulsive.

[Elena]

Yeah. With, like, he acquires things and people and he looks at people as things that he acquires.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he just can't help himself.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Now, shittily enough, his interest in Debbie emerged not long after Carol started talking to her husband more seriously about starting a family together. So here's Carol being like, I, you know, like, let's. Let's get the spending under control. Let's, like, come home a little more. Let's not go out with our drunk friends all the time and let's have a baby like we're at the right age.

[Elena]

Normal, like, behavior.

[Ash]

Yeah. They've been married a few years.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They're doing well in their careers and she wants to have a family. And he's like, yeah, I think I want to have an affair with the new summer employee at work, though.

[Elena]

Cool.

[Ash]

That's good.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's great.

[Ash]

Yeah. And he knew that she wanted kids. Carol had Never been shy about her desire for a family. Remember, in the big. At the top of this episode, it was, like, the one thing anyone could tell you about her. But Chuck, whenever he talked about having kids with his friends, he didn't try to even hide his disdain for the idea he did not want kids.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

That spring, he apparently told a friend, I knew it was coming. Just as soon as things started falling into place.

[Elena]

I'm sorry, what?

[Ash]

Like, what?

[Elena]

I'm sorry, what, sir?

[Ash]

Yeah. And the more and more she, quote, unquote, pushed to have kids, the more Chuck complained about her to his friends, secretly suggesting that not only did he not want to have kids, but he also wasn't even really interested in being married to Carol anymore. Oh, think go away, then divorce.

[Elena]

Yeah, then go away.

[Ash]

Given all his complaints about Carol and his not wanting to have children, most of his friends and family were a little more than surprised when in early 1989, Carol announced that she was pregnant.

[Elena]

Which also. It's like, my guy, if you don't.

[Ash]

Want kids, you gotta be upfront about that.

[Elena]

You gotta be upfront. And it's like, you know how kids are made. So it's like, why? Like, you gotta. You gotta talk about it. You gotta take a precaution.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

You guys are in a position where you can.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

So, like, what are you doing?

[Ash]

What are you doing? So approaching his 30th birthday, Chuck had these big dreams for himself. He'd been moving up at the store, and now he was even planning to. And saving to open his own restaurant. Restaurant. He is going down that road.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

His vision for the future was fun, excitement, excess. Carol, on the other hand, had her own dreams of settling down in the suburbs, having a family, living a quiet life.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

They are on complete opposite ends of the spectrum. When she became pregnant in the winter of 1989, it seemed like that's where they were headed, that quiet suburban life. At first, Chuck had even tried to convince his wife to get an abortion, arguing that he was on the cusp of reaching his goals and a baby just didn't fit into those plans. But Carol was like, absolutely not. Because, again, not doing that.

[Elena]

You should have discussed this beforehand. You should have discussed this before you even got married.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, meaning you should have been upfront with her saying, I don't think I want kids.

[Ash]

That's not what.

[Elena]

I don't. I don't think that's part of my plan.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

That needs to be part of the discussion.

[Ash]

But then he wouldn't have been able to obtain her the that's very so I'm sure who knows what those discussions were, but I have an inkling that he was probably like, oh yeah, totally. I want kids. You want kids.

[Elena]

I want at least just like fluffing around it. Yeah Y.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Oh, come on.

[Ash]

Later, when they were interviewed by police, one of the other attendees at the class said Chuck was, quote, really out of it and couldn't wait to get out of the class.

[Elena]

That's sad.

[Ash]

Now, the way home from the hospital should have been considerably easier because they didn't have to go back through the city. But Chuck had a habit of going home the same way that they came in. So they headed back into the city, which, like, doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

When you're leaving and you don't have to go through the city again, you aren't gonna choose to.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

But this route took them through Roxbury, which at the time was a pretty dangerous neighborhood. Yeah, Carol was always nervous driving through this particular area, so Chuck's decision to do so would have probably been cause for alarm. But she trusted him. And of course, he was in the driver's seat, so she wasn't gonna argue.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And he'd already been in a bad mood, so she was probably just like, okay, like, sounds good.

[Elena]

Sure.

[Ash]

At a certain point in their trip, Chuck brought the car to a stop at a red light on Huntington Ave. Have where he claimed they were approached by a young black man who forced his way into the back seat and pressed a gun to Chuck said, you know this case?

[Elena]

I very much know this case. It took me a minute. I absolutely know this case now. Yep, yep. Oh, I hate this guy. Yeah.

[Ash]

Later, Chuck would say the man forced him to drive the car to the Mission Hill area of Roxbury and told him to stop in what Chuck described as a quote unquote abandoned area across from one of the multi story public housing projects. Things got more intense. Chuck said when the man saw the cell phone in the console between the driver and the passenger seat and thought Chuck was possibly a police officer. He said the man told him, I think you're five zero. Chuck protested, but he said the man only grew more suspicious because Chuck said he didn't have a wallet when the man asked. And it was at that point that he said the man shot Carol point blank in the head and shot Chuck once in the stomach and then left.

[Elena]

Hmm.

[Ash]

The call came in the Massachusetts State Police dispatch a little before 9pm with Chuck yelling into the phone, my wife's been shot. I've been shot. He told the dispatcher that they'd been driving home from the hospital when they were carjacked, but that the carjacker shot them and fled and now he had no idea where they were. And then he asked the dispatcher, who was frantically trying to figure out their location, should I drive or should I. Should I try to drive or should I stay right here? It's like, why would you try to drive? No, you've been shot.

[Elena]

Like, what are you talking? And also, I love that he's like, yeah, I don't know where they are, but I do know they were black. Yeah, that's for sure.

[Ash]

Yep. Definitely.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

The dispatcher insisted that Chuck definitely not drive, but he started the car anyway and drove a few feet before bringing it to a stop again and saying, oh, man, I'm gonna pass out. It hurts. And my wife has stopped gurgling. She stopped breathing. I'm blacking out.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Without a more specific location, the dispatcher just ordered a flood of police cruisers to the Mission Hill neighborhood to start looking for Chuck and Carol. And in the meantime, the dispatcher, Gary McLaughlin, did his best to keep Chuck alert and responsive while also listening on the call for the sounds of sirens so that he could keep guiding the police towards Stewart's car. Toward the Stewart's car. Later, McLaughlin said it was a unique call. You don't get many of These in your career. There was a definite urgency in the man's voice. We didn't have a lot of time to find out where he was. So it took them 10 minutes to find the car on St. Alphonso street parked underneath a burnt out street light with the driver's side window rolled down.

[Elena]

Huh.

[Ash]

Which is like, why would you. Like, why did you move the car to begin with? And why did you move it under a dark street lamp?

[Elena]

Like, what are you doing?

[Ash]

But to the paramedics, the scene did look a lot like domestic violence scenes that they'd encountered a lot of times in the past. And as they moved, Carol removed Carol from the passenger seat. That was when they realized she was pregnant. By the time she was loaded into the ambulance, she had lost a lot of blood and suffered a tremendous injury to her head. And it seemed very unlikely to anybody that she would make it.

[Elena]

That's so sad.

[Ash]

It is really sad. Chuck, incredibly, had farred actually far better in the attack. Crazy. But he still suffered a traumatic gunshot injury to his stomach and was bleeding quite heavily. So Carol was sent back to Brigham and Women's where doctors did manage to deliver her baby prematurely. Wow. Which is incredible.

[Elena]

Brigham and Women's.

[Ash]

Incredible.

[Elena]

One of the most incredible hospitals.

[Ash]

But unfortunately, they were unable to save Carol and she died a little after midnight.

[Elena]

That's sad.

[Ash]

Yeah. Chuck, meanwhile, was taken to Boston City Hospital, where he was listed as being in critical condition. Coincidentally, the entire remarkable rescue was caught on tape by the Crew of Rescue911.

[Elena]

Holy shit. Bring me right back.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

I can literally. Oh, I just. I can smell me sitting in a chair. I can smell the chair. I can. I'm there. I fucking loved Rescue 911.

[Ash]

Well, they were riding along with Boston paramedics that night, and they caught this entire thing.

[Elena]

Holy. Yeah, I didn't know that part of.

[Ash]

It isn't that crazy.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

So as soon as he was stable, Chuck Stewart gave a statement to the police where he described the shooter as a young black man with a raspy voice, dressed in a tracksuit.

[Elena]

He's like, let me give you so much detail.

[Ash]

It was just also, in short, a pretty fucking racist stereotype of the kind of person, 100%, who, at least in the minds of a lot of white suburbanites at the time, would commit this kind of crime.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, that's the most racist description ever.

[Elena]

Yeah. He might as well have just been like, hey, hey, I'm a huge racist. Yeah. But here's the description.

[Ash]

Thumbs up.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That night, Boston Mayor Ray Flynn issued a statement from the Roxbury Police Precinct regarding the Stewart shooting saying, I demand the Boston Police Department continue to be extremely aggressive in cracking down on people who are using guns and killing innocent people. It's intolerable. We will use every lawful tool to support our police officers in cracking down on gun wielding criminals, especially this white.

[Elena]

Guy who just did it and is now lying about it.

[Ash]

Yeah, 100%. Carol's murder had come during a time when Boston was experiencing a particularly troubling wave of gun violence. I think now it's just the norm, but back then it was like, holy shit, this is happening all the time. Just a few days earlier, 12 year old Darlene Moore had been shot and killed in what was described as a gang related shooting. And that same night, 29 year old James Moody was gunned down in Dorchester. City Councilor Bruce Bowling told a reporter, people felt as long as all this violence was in the greater Roxbury neighborhood, it's not going to affect us. Now we see it's not confined to a single race or ethnicity. It was definitely true that violent crimes were touching the lives of both white and black residents. But when it came to the response from law enforcement in this case, in the Stewart case, it seemed to a lot of people that the Stewart case was given much more priority than black victims of crime. In Roxbury. The mother of 15 year old Larouche Harris criticized Boston police for their inability to make progress on the attempted murder of her daughter while they wasted no time flooding the streets to find Carol Stewart.

[Elena]

Yeah, of course.

[Ash]

Neighbor Jacqueline Sims told a reporter, that's a feeling a lot of black people have. I do too. It seems like the Stuart, since the Stewart thing happened, everybody's coming down on.

[Elena]

The black area and see, look what he caused.

[Ash]

Look what he did. Obviously details and intricacies of murder cases are always very complicated. But it does seem like this murder, the Stewart murder, got far more attention from the press and the police than other incidents of violent crime that occurred in the exact same area. Yeah, at the exact same time. By their own admission, investigators had no leads and no witnesses. But the morning after the shooting, dozens of Boston police officers like were flooded around Mission Hill looking for this man who had killed Carol. Based on the evidence that they did have, they knew the shooter had used a.38 caliber handgun. But there was really little else to go on aside from that. In a statement to reporters, one investigator said, there's no question the perpetrator thought they were police officers. Investigators were convinced that the shooter lived in the Mission Hill neighborhood and believed that he had committed similar crimes in the past. One investigator said, somebody in Mission Hill's gonna give this guy up if not to do the right thing than just because it will get rid of the heat. Yeah, because everybody was upset that there was a huge police presence in this area. Yeah, of course, you know. Meanwhile, the debate over what many saw as unequal protection was growing louder and louder. Mayor Flynn dismissed the accusations, of course, that the Stewart case was getting more attention because the victims were white. He said, there will be the same aggressive and fair and consistent enforcement of all our laws, regardless of where it takes place, Whatever area or color or ethnicity, it will be handled the same aggressive and fair way by the Boston police department. But in the days that followed, other leaders at city hall started speaking out with different opinions. David scondrus, a white city councilor who represented the Mission Hill district, said, you can't help but wonder if what you're watching is a class situation, that it's all right for the poor to put up with an enormous amount of shootings and killings, but presumably if you're white, upper income and suburban, maybe that changes things. That's sad.

[Elena]

It is true. It is. That's one way of describing it, yeah.

[Ash]

Within a few days, a spokesperson for the Boston police department report reported the list of suspects has been narrowed down to a chosen few. By that point, Chuck Stewart's story had changed somewhat, which prompted investigators to adjust their search. Initially, when he described the shooting, Chuck made it sound like the person had shot them because he thought they were police officers. But then he indicated that the shooter only said something about there being 5, 0. So he was like very.

[Elena]

It's like, right.

[Ash]

And he said that the shooter said this after Chuck said he didn't have a wallet. Based on this revised statement, investigators now thought the man maybe never saw the car phone, end quote, was probably going to steal the car, but panicked when he. When his demand for the wallet could not be met. Okay, so interesting inter.

[Elena]

Asante.

[Ash]

Yeah. Despite their insistence that the case was progressing well, within a few days, the decreased police activity in Mission Hill had become pretty noticeable. And so had the lack of new information coming from the Boston police department spokespeople. Finally, on October 28th, police arrested their main suspect in the case, 29 year old Alan Swanson, who had been in custody for days actually already after being arrested on an unrelated robbery trial charge. By the time he was arrested for the Stewart shooting, Swanson had already been cleared of the other charge. So he, he hadn't even done that.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which led many to question why he was still being held. According to Swanson's attorney, Leslie Harris, the Boston Police Department was using Swanson as a, quote, convenient scapegoat to appease the public that the police were making progress in the Stewart shooting case. Which they weren't. Which they weren't making progress is what I mean. Yeah, they very much were using him as a scapegoat, for sure. Sure. Leslie Harris and others were right to question the legality of holding Allen Swanson for a crime when they had literally not a single shred of evidence against him.

[Elena]

That's wild.

[Ash]

And just a few days after his arrest, he was cleared of any involvement after investigators became convinced he didn't know anything about the matter. So they just. That's terrorized that.

[Elena]

Yeah, they just terrorized him.

[Ash]

Who was arrested for something he didn't do anyways and then was held for another thing. He.

[Elena]

For another thing that he didn't do. And they had had no evidence of him doing it. Yeah.

[Ash]

I'd call that racist.

[Elena]

Yeah, I would, too.

[Ash]

Yeah. So the arrest and release of Alan Swanson made police look pretty bad.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But any anger over his arrest was quickly overshadowed on November 9th when news broke that Chuck and Carol's baby, who they had named Christopher, died of complications from his premature birth.

[Elena]

Oh, that's so sad.

[Ash]

It's very sad. Christopher's death put even more pressure on investigators to find the killer and at the same time raised questions as to whether his death would be added to the charges when the killer was.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That's two murders.

[Elena]

Yep. They. That happen in Lacey Peterson?

[Ash]

Yes. Yes. Speaking on behalf of the district attorney's office, Chief homicide investigator Francis o' Meara told reporters if and when the D. A. Determines it's a homicide, and if and when somebody is arrested, they will be charged with two complaints of homicide.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

Which I think is fair. Yeah, I think. Absolutely.

[Elena]

Because that baby was alive. Yep. Like, they delivered that child, which is remarkable. Truly remarkable to me. And really, like, just horrifying to think about. Yeah. But it's like that baby was born and is alive.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And died because of what happened. Of the murder of their mother.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, that is directly linked.

[Ash]

That's killing two people.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Easy. It just. One of them just happened to live longer.

[Elena]

Yeah. You know, exactly.

[Ash]

It's like when you shoot somebody and, like, they're in a coma, but then they die. Yeah. It's still murder.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

So it turned out the public wouldn't have to wait very Long for news of yet another arrest. Just two days later, police arrested 39 year old Willie Bennett during a traffic stop and he was soon charged with the murders.

[Elena]

Jesus.

[Ash]

A traffic stop escalated to murder.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Got it. It. At the time of the shooting, he was a resident of a housing project near the crime scene, and he resembled the wildly vague description of the shooter. And he was also known to police. In 1982, he was convicted of assaulting an officer when he pointed a gun at a Boston police officer and removed the man's gun from his belt, which he then used to shoot out one of the tires on the police cruiser.

[Elena]

Damn.

[Ash]

When police got to his apartment, they found him crouched on the floor of his living room clutching a revolver. And he reportedly told police, you're not going to take me alive. One of the arresting officers shot him in the hand, which forced him to drop the gun. And at that point he was taken into custody. Okay, so that's the story of his wild ride. Yes. According to the report, at the time of his arrest, Bennett admitted his involvement in the shooting of the Stewarts during conversations with police. And witnesses reported seeing him wearing a similar outfit to that, to the one that Chuck described, which was a tracksuit. Yeah, just a general tracksuit, which is where we're in.

[Elena]

Aren't we in the 80s here? Yeah, yeah. So.

[Ash]

But it actually, a lot of people.

[Elena]

Are running around in a tracksuit.

[Ash]

A lot of people were, but I'm not sure about Willie Bennett. That said, Bennett's relatives denied that he owned any clothing matching the description of the shooter. And investigators weren't able to find anything that resembled it during their search of his apartment.

[Elena]

Wow. Wow.

[Ash]

So what did he do with it?

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Get it together.

[Ash]

All right?

[Elena]

Like, because the thing is here you're like, you. It would look better, like, you would understand, like, police, you know, you want the police to go hard at this. A woman was. A pregnant woman was shot in the face and her baby has now died.

[Ash]

Her baby.

[Elena]

Y. Like, of course you want them to find who did this, but it's like.

[Ash]

But it's. We want you to find who did it.

[Elena]

And is no one looking at the guy in the car? Right. Like, that wasn't even a thought.

[Ash]

When is nobody looking at the guy in the car who only got shot in the stomach?

[Elena]

That's the thing. I'm like, why would she be shot in the face and he wouldn't?

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Why. Why are they potentially leaving someone alive?

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

If they're going to carjack you and their plan is to kill both of you and they shoot one of you.

[Ash]

In the head and the other in the stomach, they're gonna shoot the other.

[Elena]

One in the head.

[Ash]

And even from a logistics standpoint, how did they got in the car or were they standing outside of the car? He doesn't even really say.

[Elena]

And that's the thing. It's like, I. You can understand the, like, need to catch whoever did this because.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

Shooting a pregnant woman is a wild, heinous crime. Is a wild crime.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

But, like, they're just. They're leaning right into the, The. The racist thing here. And it's like that. And. And it's a bummer.

[Ash]

It is a bummer.

[Elena]

Because it's like you really were doing bad police work.

[Ash]

I think it.

[Elena]

When you could have done really good police work.

[Ash]

I love Boston more than anything. I love being from here. But I think it was a very bad time.

[Elena]

Oh, of course. Yeah. Like, hey, you got to be able to admit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

When. When you know, there was a lot of love your town and admit its fault.

[Ash]

Yeah. There was a lot of racism running back deep during that time.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

You know, but because they lacked sufficient evidence to charge Willie Bennett with the murders, authorities took their case to a grand jury in mid November. Which I'm like, why would you take it to a grand jury if you don't have any evidence? That's weird. But in the meantime, they were still able to hold him on an unrelated robbery charge from a few weeks before the Stewart shooting. They were just grasping at straws.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

A week later, Chuck Stewart had recovered enough to speak with the police officers a second time. Yay. This was when he was shown pictures of potential suspects and asked whether he recognized any of the men in the photos. According to a spokesperson for the bpd, Chuck had a strong physical reaction when shown photos of Bennett, but he wasn't able to make a conclusive identification at the time.

[Elena]

Okay, I know how this ends now. That's why I'm being very flippant about this.

[Ash]

Yeah, exactly. I think everybody does, too. Yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What constitutes a strong physical reaction?

[Elena]

Well, that's what I want to know. I want to know what kind of shenanigans was happening there.

[Ash]

And I don't know. There's a. There's a lot of questions I have that I think I'll keep to myself. But while Chuck's reaction seemed like a step in the right direction for the police, otherwise, the investigation was running into trouble. By the end of November, police still had yet to find any evidence linking Willie Bennett to these murders. And his family and friends were becoming increasingly vocal in their belief that that, like Alan Swanson before him, Willie was being scapegoated.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Just to appease the public and, you know, make the police look good.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

By his own admission, Chuck Stewart said he never got a good look at the man who shot his wife, but he was convinced that he could identify the person if he saw them in a lineup. Does that make sense?

[Elena]

For me, those two things feel like they are conflicting ideas. They're very conflicting here. I. I don't understand how that works.

[Ash]

Yeah, the thing is, like, I didn't get a good look at the guy, but, like, if you put a lineup, I. I of kind could probably. I could definitely say.

[Elena]

But if you tell me who you want to put behind bars, I can totally point at them like. Like, I can absolutely do that.

[Ash]

That's good.

[Elena]

Cool.

[Ash]

That's awesome. And he said he could do this based largely on the fact that the shooter had a very distinct voice. Like, wow, okay.

[Elena]

Wow. Okay.

[Ash]

You're doubling down there.

[Elena]

Like, damn.

[Ash]

In late December, after Chuck was released from the hospital, a judge ordered Willie Bennett to appear in said lineup. And Chuck told investigators that Willie, unquote, quote, quote, looked most like the man who shot him and his wife.

[Elena]

Cool.

[Ash]

Not definitely was, but he looks the most like him. Looks the most like him.

[Elena]

Let's go with it.

[Ash]

One source went a step further, telling a reporter that, quote, stewart made additional comments during the lineup that convinced investigators it was absolutely crystal clear that's the guy. Okay. Media. Sure. Later, it would come out that one of the main reasons for Willie Bennett's arrest was that his nephew, a 15 year old at the time, was bragging to his friends that his uncle was the shooter in the case. However, the nephew would go on to deny that, so who knows?

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

But the rumor was then apparently spread to others around the neighborhood, which was eventually how it made its way to a Boston police officer. And that became the impetus for Willie Bennett's arrest. Ah.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

In all reality, though, the case against him was weak, based on hearsay, probably from a group of teenagers, and only supported by a violent criminal history.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

But across the river in Revere, another story was coming together. And it told a very different version of what happened to Carol Stewart that night in Mission Hill. From the moment Carol and Chuck's friends heard about the shooting, a lot of them flash back to the various comments that they had all made in the past. Remember, they didn't think something was right about Chuck.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

For Chuck's friends, it was comments about Debbie Allen and how much he wished something bad would happen to his wife.

[Elena]

Wife.

[Ash]

He literally said that to his friends.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

He really liked Debbie. And it was just too bad that nothing bad was happening to Carol to.

[Elena]

Make that work, man, just divorce your wife. It's really like. I know it sucks to go through. I'm sure divorces suck.

[Ash]

Of course they do. But I don't even think it is.

[Elena]

Far superior to murdering someone. Far superior.

[Ash]

Yeah. I don't even think it's the fact that, like, divorces suck, and it's a lot to get through.

[Elena]

Through.

[Ash]

I think for Chuck, he didn't want to be seen as somebody who had a divorce in their past.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Instead.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

He could gain sympathy from a wife who was shot and killed while pregnant.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

But for Carol's friends, it was how unbelievable it was that Carol would have found herself in that neighborhood. Given her profound fear for, quote, urban violence, she had a big fear of shootings.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

There were also other holes in Chuck's story and the fact that. That he changed his description of the shooter. After all, if things happened as he had described them, why was there no evidence to support everything he said happened? Yeah, and in hindsight, there would be other oddities, too. Like the dispatcher who remembered Chuck's final question before the line disconnected. Have you gotten any calls from the press yet? Wow.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

What? What, what, what? I'm gonna spell this out for you guys. He shot his wife.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, the end of this is he did it.

[Ash]

My friends, I think you all saw that coming.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Have you Got any calls from the press yet while he's sitting? Calls from the wife that he just shot in the head with a baby in her stomach.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Yeah. Okay.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's wild. Okay, that is wild.

[Ash]

And just like, like, I'm like, how are you that dumb to even say that?

[Elena]

That's the thing.

[Ash]

And why, in hindsight, was that weird?

[Elena]

I'm glad that he's an idiot. So, same.

[Ash]

Of course, nobody wanted to believe that any part of the story was a lie. They had both been shot. And even though Chuck didn't die, he did suffer serious injuries and lost his wife and his baby. Everyone thought it also seemed too unbelievable to be true. And the official story seemed more plausible to everybody.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

But everyone from the coroner to members of the press had unanswered questions. And eventually, that feeling of having missed something would make a lot more sense.

[Elena]

Ah.

[Ash]

Whether people wanted to believe the official story of the carjacking or not, the case against Willie Bennett was clearly unraveling, going nowhere. And there were no alternative suspects. Then, on January 2, 1990, Chuck's brother Matthew walked into a Revere police department with a very strange, tragic story to tell.

[Elena]

Oh, yes.

[Ash]

According to Matthew, Chuck had approached him a few weeks before the shooting with a proposition. He had a plan to steal Carol's jewelry from their house to commit insurance fraud. When that strategy didn't go as planned, Chuck concocted a new scheme. And he said all he needed Matthew to do was to meet him in Mission Hill at a specified time to receive a bag and get rid of it in a place where it would never be found.

[Elena]

This is horrifying.

[Ash]

Thinking his brother was still trying to pull off the insurance scam, Matthew agreed to help, assuming the bag would contain jewelry or some other valuables like that. Still wrong, but not quite as deep.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Matthew confessed that he met Chuck in Mission Hill that very night, where he received what was eventually identified as Carol's purse. Inside, he found a.38 caliber handgun and his and some jewelry. He admitted to keeping Carol's wedding ring for himself.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

What man. And he said the rest he took to his friend John McMahon. And the two men brought the items to a railroad bridge in Revere and tossed them into the water. The gun, it turned out, had been stolen from the Caucus and Son's safe a few days before the murders occurred. So he stole the gun from War Holy. Matthew Stewart insisted that. And he also has always maintained that he knew nothing about Chuck's plan to kill Carol. And if he had, he never would have Gone through with any of it.

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

But now it made sense why that case against Willie Bennett never made sense.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

It was because the real killer was staring everyone in the face for months. And no one wanted to be the one to suggest what had already crossed everybody's minds.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

Unfortunately, Carol's real, real killer, her husband Chuck, would never be brought to justice. Nope. The day after Matthew Stewart went to the police with his story, Chuck drove his car to the highest point of the Tobin Bridge, got out and threw himself to his death a little after.

[Elena]

7Am I have thought about this so many times, going over the Tobin.

[Ash]

Because if you live near here and you go like anywhere, you're. You've gone over the top, you're going over a million times in your life. The fact that he threw himself off the Tobin.

[Elena]

Spooky as hell.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

It really is.

[Ash]

A few hours after he was seen jumping from the bridge, divers found Chuck's body in the Charles river, which is not a place you want to die.

[Elena]

Do not want to die in the trials.

[Ash]

On the passenger seat of the car, though, investigators found a note that read, to my family and friends, I love you very much. Thank you for standing beside me. My life has been nothing but a battle for the last four months. Whatever this new accusation is, it has beaten me. I've been sapped of my strength. That's it?

[Elena]

Okay.

[Ash]

That's all it said?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It made no mention of having murdered Carol or her death at all. But authorities believed that he had killed himself rather than face consequences of having murdered his wife and unborn son.

[Elena]

Son.

[Ash]

Because Jack gave no explanation for his suicide and never really confessed to murdering Carol. The official motive remains a mystery, but there's obviously reason to believe that he wanted to kill Carol so he could collect on a five hundred thousand dollar insurance payout.

[Elena]

My God.

[Ash]

And that money would have allowed him to pay down his debts and open up the restaurant that he dreamed of. And once single, he could pursue a relationship with other women.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

And gained the sympathy that he had lost a wife so violently.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

A few days later, investigators dragged the river where Matthew claimed to have discarded the gun in Carol's purse, which was located and determined to be a match for that gun that was stolen.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

And a match for the gun that was obviously used in the murder.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

That night, investigators held a press conference to announce that they believe Chuck Stewart was the killer and that the case would soon be closed. Closed. Holy. The following year, Matthew Stewart and Jack McMahon were indicted on charges including conspiracy to commit murder, unlawful Possession of a firearm and compounding a felony. And at the same time, Willie Bennett was finally cleared on murder charges, but he was still found guilty on armed robbery charges stemming from that unrelated case. Later that year, Matthew and Jack pleaded guilty to the charges related to their involvement in the case. Case in the years since, the murder of Carol and Christopher Stewart has become one of the most defining criminal cases in Boston's more recent history. There were, of course, obviously, the original victims, Carol and Christopher Stewart. But the follow from the case and the way that it was handled by investigators was felt by so many residents, some who had never even heard of Carol, and people who hadn't done anything wrong.

[Elena]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

After the announcement of Chuck's death, considerable public outcry led the U.S. attorney's office to open an investigation into the mishandling of this case.

[Elena]

Oh, damn.

[Ash]

And claims of racial bias against the Boston Police Department as well. After a 15 month investigation, U.S. attorney Wayne Bud announced they have. They had found, quote, some evidence of serious misconduct, but not enough to justifiably pursue charges against any of the officers involved. Involved.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

She was like, yeah, we did find some evidence of serious misconduct, but we're.

[Elena]

Not gonna do that.

[Ash]

He said, I will not prosecute unless I think a person can be found guilty by an unbiased jury.

[Elena]

Damn. Okay, okay.

[Ash]

At a press conference in 2019 years and years and years later, Suffolk County District Attorney Rachel Rollins spoke out about the ways that the Stewart case tore the city apart and left lasting wounds that would remain unhealed healed. She said, today we remember the survivors. Those survivors include several families and the entire Mission Hill community. The brutal murder of Carol and Christopher demati precipitated a chain of events that created deep trauma beyond one family. The people of Mission Hill, especially black men, were treated like criminals rather than members of a community that, like all of us, are innocent until proven guilty and who the police are allegedly duty bound to protect and serve.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Which is like, Gives you chills.

[Elena]

Yeah. You're like, hell yeah.

[Ash]

She and other city letter leaders, as well as residents of all the neighborhoods, looked forward to a day when justice and protection would be applied equally, which, as she pointed out, can only be achieved by confronting the wrongs of the past and holding ourselves to higher moral standards.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

Which I think is a great way to end that.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

You know, hold yourself to a higher moral standard.

[Elena]

Yes, absolutely. As we all should.

[Ash]

Don't be a rascal. Racist.

[Elena]

Don't be a racist.

[Ash]

Don't be a racist.

[Elena]

And don't be a Murderer.

[Ash]

Don't be a murderer.

[Elena]

Don't be a.

[Ash]

If you don't want to be with somebody, then don't be with them. Don't be with them.

[Elena]

It's that simple. But let them go live their life. You don't need to, like, oh, it's just so yucky. It really is. It's so yucky when somebody's like, you know what? Instead of just, like, making things a little uncomfortable for a while and ending this relationship, you just kill this person. I'm gonna remove this person's ability to have any further life. Life experiences.

[Ash]

I don't know how anybody kills anybody, but specifically killing a pregnant woman.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Is like, another level of truly depravity. Truly like. And for him to do that to his own child is sick.

[Elena]

It's unthinkable. Unthinkable.

[Ash]

It's so messed up. But that is a very famous case from Boston. So if you're.

[Elena]

As soon as he got to that point, I said, oh, oh, I know exactly what this is.

[Ash]

As soon as he parked that.

[Elena]

For some reason, the. The name didn't stick in my head. But, yeah, that definitely brought it.

[Ash]

Yeah. Then I didn't recognize the name at first either. And then I was like, oh, Yep. So, yeah.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Terrible, terrible case.

[Elena]

Really terrible. It's just really awful.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

And I just really. I feel so bad for Carol.

[Ash]

I do, too.

[Elena]

Carol had a lot to offer.

[Ash]

She had a lot to offer. She had a lot to give, was a good friend. Like, she was a hard worker, smart as hell.

[Elena]

She seemed like she was gonna be.

[Ash]

A great mom, and that's all she wanted.

[Elena]

She just wanted it. That's the thing, you know, when you want it that badly, you're gonna do a great job at it.

[Ash]

Yeah, I agree.

[Elena]

And she was never given that chance, and that really sucks.

[Ash]

I know.

[Elena]

And poor Christopher.

[Ash]

I hope that her and Christopher are, like, somewhere together.

[Elena]

No.

[Ash]

You know, in another life with a better time.

[Elena]

So, yeah, just be. Be good people. Be good people to your fellow people. Especially right now. Now, my God. Be good people to your fellow people.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Let's stop being dicks to each other.

[Ash]

Good people to. To everybody.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

To.

[Elena]

To real. To people in life, to people on the Internet, to all the things. Just don't. Don't be dicks.

[Ash]

Yeah. That's a great takeaway.

[Elena]

It is just. I love it, you know?

[Ash]

And if you take nothing else away, we hope you keep listening, and we.

[Elena]

Hope you keep it weird.

[Ash]

But not as weird as that, because he's a freak.

[Elena]

Cuz that guy hate him.

[Ash]

Sam Foreign if you like morbid you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.

[Lamont Jones]

Lamont Jones World is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison. The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, Pennsylvania chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man search for answers but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful things. Forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County, Pennsylvania pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County Pa on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County Pa early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus.