Episode 672: The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully

Summary

Podcast Summary: Morbid Episode 672 – The Death of Ken McElroy, The Town Bully

Hosts: Ash and Elena
Episode Release Date: May 15, 2025
Podcast Description:
Morbid delves into true crime, creepy history, and all things spooky with a blend of thorough research and dark humor, hosted by an autopsy technician and a hairstylist.

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I. Introduction

In Episode 672 of Morbid, hosts Ash and Elena embark on a harrowing exploration of the life and demise of Ken McElroy, notorious as the "town bully" of Skidmore, Missouri. This detailed narrative uncovers the events leading up to his violent end, the community's tumultuous relationship with him, and the mysterious circumstances surrounding his death.

---

II. Hosts' Personal Stories and Brief Interlude

Before delving into the main story, Ash and Elena share personal anecdotes about their recent vacation trips to Disney and Universal parks. This segment includes lively discussions about their experiences, favorite rides, and summer tips for fellow listeners.

• Ash on Disney Weekend:
  "We hit Disney. I met a bunch of people." (02:47)

• Elena’s Preference for Tiana’s Ride:
  "If you know anything about me, you know, I fucking love Princess and the Frog. I love Tiana. She's my favorite princess." (04:21)

• Summer Recommendations:
  "I highly recommend the cooling towels. You can get them anywhere." (06:03)
  "Another one is the elf-like setting spray that has SPF 45. I spray it on my face like three, four times throughout the day." (09:16)

These personal narratives set a relaxed tone before transitioning into the darker subject matter of Ken McElroy.

---

III. The Life of Ken McElroy

A. Early Life and Background

Ken McElroy was born on June 16, 1934, in Overland Park, Kansas, into a tumultuous family environment. As one of 16 children, his early years were marked by poverty and neglect.

• Elena on McElroy’s Childhood:
  "Ken was definitely not ever his father's favorite child and never even came close to being the favorite child." (23:08)

His parents, Tony and Mabel McElroy, struggled to maintain steady employment, leading to constant relocations and financial instability.

B. Onset of Criminal Behavior

From a young age, Ken exhibited aggressive and antisocial behavior. Incidents during his school years included fights and intimidation, setting the foundation for his future as a feared figure in his community.

• Ash’s Reaction to School Behavior:
  "Holy shit." (25:39)

• Elena on Public Incidents:
  "He was caught stealing from a general store, and his father threatened the owner with a hunting knife." (26:09)

This lack of accountability and parental intervention fostered Ken's belief that he could act above the law without repercussions.

---

IV. Escalation of Violence and Community Fear

A. Criminal Activities and Intimidation

Throughout the 1950s and 60s, Ken McElroy engaged in a series of violent crimes, including theft, assault, and sexual predation. His ability to evade law enforcement through intimidation and threats made him a pervasive fear in Skidmore.

• Elena on McElroy’s Predatory Behavior:
  "Throughout Skidmore and the surrounding towns, most adults knew how Ken made his money, but they looked the other way because they didn't want to get on his bad side." (32:32)

His relationships were marred by abuse and manipulation, particularly towards young girls, further cementing his status as a town menace.

• Ash’s Commentary on Abuse:
  "He raped multiple children." (38:11)

B. Notable Incidents Highlighting His Brutality

One of the most egregious acts was the 1968 assault on farmer Glenn Graham and his daughter Anita Foster, where Ken and his associates brutally attacked them outside their home.

• Elena’s Description of the Attack:
  "One of his eyes was kicked out of his head." (41:51)

Despite the horrific nature of the assault, charges against McElroy and his accomplices were swiftly dropped after they passed polygraph tests, leaving the community enraged and fearful.

• Elena on Legal Failures:
  "The charges were dropped after both men passed polygraph examinations, testing whether they were involved in the beating." (44:08)

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V. The Final Confrontation and Death of Ken McElroy

A. Community’s Breaking Point

By 1981, Ken McElroy's unchecked reign of terror had left the small town of Skidmore in a state of desperate fear. The community was plagued by his violence and the inefficacy of legal systems to hold him accountable.

• Elena on Community Willingness:
  "They were being bullied into submission almost." (47:25)

B. The Night of July 10, 1981

On July 10, 1981, tensions culminated in a silent standoff at the DNG Tavern, where Ken mingled with locals before a coordinated effort led to his assassination.

• Transcript of the Confrontation:
  As Ken sat at the bar, muttering about his recent conviction, a group of Skidmore men approached him. Without words, they surrounded his truck, armed from multiple directions.

• Elena’s Detailed Account:
  "From different vantage points, different guns, just pow, pow, pow, pow, pow." (59:50)

Ken was brutally shot multiple times, severely wounding him and riddling his truck with bullets. Fortunately, his 12-year-old companion, Trina, was unharmed.

• Ash’s Reflection on the Aftermath:
  "He shot his ass. Literally." (47:14)

C. Aftermath and Community Silence

Following Ken's death, an investigation failed to produce any suspects as the entire town remained tight-lipped, effectively shielding the vigilantes responsible.

• Elena on the Lack of Witnesses:
  "No one in Skidmore would talk to anybody." (62:54)

Officials, including the sheriff, avoided involvement, further highlighting the community’s fear and complicity.

• Ash’s Reaction:
  "That's brotherhood." (63:00)

The grand jury found insufficient evidence to indict any individuals, leaving the mystery of Ken McElroy's death unsolved and the community grappling with the moral implications of their actions.

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VI. Discussion and Insights

A. Vigilante Justice vs. Legal Accountability

Ash and Elena delve into the complex dynamics that drive communities to take the law into their own hands. They explore the thin line between seeking justice and descending into vigilantism, emphasizing the lack of closure and ongoing trauma that such actions can inflict.

• Elena on Community’s Decision:
  "It's a complex and very nuanced thing. There's, it's, you know, this is a situation." (70:07)

B. Psychological and Social Factors

The episode examines the psychological underpinnings of both Ken McElroy's behavior and the townspeople's responses. It highlights how prolonged fear and victimization can erode trust in institutions, leading to drastic measures.

• Ash’s Commentary on Fear:
  "I can't imagine." (66:58)

C. Legacy and Lessons Learned

Reflecting on the case, Ash and Elena discuss the importance of community support, accountability, and the dangers of allowing a single individual to wield unchecked power. They caution against the repercussions of letting fear dominate societal actions.

• Elena’s Closing Remarks:
  "Don't do it. Just don't do that." (71:27)

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VII. Conclusion

Episode 672 of Morbid presents a chilling narrative of Ken McElroy's life and violent end, intertwined with a profound exploration of human behavior under extreme duress. Ash and Elena effectively utilize the story to underscore the critical importance of addressing systemic failures and fostering communities that prioritize justice and mutual respect over fear and retribution.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ash on Polygraph Failures:
  "This proves you right here that polygraph exams are fucking bullshit." (44:38)

• Elena on the Community’s Silence:
  "No one in Skidmore would talk to anybody." (62:54)

• Ash on Vigilante Actions:
  "You can't kick a man's eye out and not expect public outrage." (45:03)

• Elena’s Insight on Community Fear:
  "People in every different way. So you don't know what you're doing." (70:40)

---

Timestamp References:

• Introduction & Hosts' Stories: 00:00 – 14:45
• Ken McElroy's Early Life: 19:00 – 24:52
• Escalation of Crimes: 25:22 – 38:11
• Final Confrontation: 57:50 – 70:50

Note: All timestamps correspond to key moments and quotes within the episode transcript.

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Final Thoughts:

This episode serves as a stark reminder of the devastating impact one individual can have on a community and the lengths to which people will go when legal avenues fail them. It invites listeners to ponder the ethical boundaries of justice and the importance of maintaining robust, reliable legal systems to prevent such occurrences.

Transcript

[Ash]

Hey weirdos, before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery? It's like a secret passage to an ad free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or in Apple podcasts or Spotify.

[Elena]

You're listening to a Morbid network podcast.

[Ash]

We get support from Amazon Prime. Hey weirdos, you know what's literally the most amazing thing ever? Amazon Prime. Listen up because this is gonna blow your minds. With prime, you get faster than lightning delivery on like everything. We're talking millions of items. Literally everything you could ever want or need. But wait, there's more. There's more than everything you could want or need. Prime Video lets you binge all those shows we're obsessed with, and Amazon Music has all the bops for your next dance party. I have been ordering a little bit on prime lately. I had to get some earplugs the other night because my husband was a snorri snore snoring and I said please send them to me the very next day. And they did. That was great. Loved that. Whether you're a total bookworm, a gaming fanatic, or you just really like trying new things or sleeping through the night without your husband snoring waking you up, Prime's got your back. Ebooks for days, free in game goodies and everything you need to make your next DIY project. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com prime to get more out of whatever you're into. Morbid is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer services and get paid all in one place. It's so convenient. From consultations to events and experiences, showcase your offerings with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. Every dream needs a domain, and Squarespace Domain makes it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all inclusive price. There's no hidden fees or add ons, nothing like that required. And every Squarespace domain comes with advanced privacy and security tools included to ensure that your domain remains online and protected. Plus, Squarespace provides everything you need to bring more of your dreams to life. Whether that means building a website or adding a professional email Service. Head to squarespace.commorbid for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer code morbid to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. Hey weirdos I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is Mormon.

[Elena]

This is morbid.

[Ash]

It's morbid. We're fresh off of ak.

[Elena]

Yeah, we had a little vacay. We hit Disney for a day.

[Ash]

We hit Disney. I met a bunch of people.

[Elena]

I only met, I think, two.

[Ash]

Yeah, because you went. One day, me and Drew rolled deep and we did five.

[Elena]

Four days.

[Ash]

We did four days and one at Universal.

[Elena]

We did the one because. Yeah, we.

[Ash]

Well, you have, like, a lot of kids.

[Elena]

And we wanted to. We wanted to redeem the Disney vacation. And guys, I didn't have a bad time.

[Ash]

She. No, she had a good time.

[Elena]

I did because I ended up, like, I never. I don't do rides. It's just like, not. And it's not me being an asshole. It's just not me. Not everybody likes rides. I've never liked rides. I've just never been a ride girl. I didn't go to theme parks as a kid. It just wasn't a thing.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And I don't like the feeling of your tummy flipping. It's just like, people love that feeling. And I get it.

[Ash]

Literally, my favorite feeling.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's just not a feeling I enjoy. Like, if you're in a car and even and you dip down and it gives that, like, whoop, I don't like that.

[Ash]

Oh. Sometimes on those bumps, I speed up for them.

[Elena]

Yeah, see, I don't like that. And so I'm just that kind of person. So usually I will do, like, the very chill, chill, chill rides.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And other than that, John is the ride guy. Ash is the ride person, the ride tt. I know that, like, you know, Ash and Drew and John are gonna take the. Take the.

[Ash]

There's always. There's always an adult for each kid.

[Elena]

Always. And I'll hold all the shit, you know, and take the pictures.

[Ash]

Have to have that person.

[Elena]

I'm so good at that.

[Ash]

You're great at that. You're great. You're great at holding shit.

[Elena]

But this time, my kids. Now the new Tiana ride opened up.

[Ash]

I can't even express to you how fucking good this ride is.

[Elena]

Well, here's the thing. If you know anything about me, you know, I fucking love Princess and the frog.

[Ash]

She rides hard.

[Elena]

I love Tiana. She's my favorite princess.

[Ash]

She's great.

[Elena]

That's my girl right there. Yeah. And when I heard there was going to be a Tiana ride, I said, oh, fuck, I'm so want to do that. And then I looked it up and I was like, I'm not going to do that. And then my kids said, mom, will you do that with us? And I said, yep, I'll do that with you. So I literally went into this saying, fuck, I have to do this 50 foot drop. And I don't know.

[Ash]

The thing about the drops at Disney, though, is that they slow them down.

[Elena]

This one was. It's so fast that I don't remember it. I think I blacked out.

[Ash]

So, like, this one is. I just showed her velocicoaster and I was like, nah, that's a roller coaster.

[Elena]

I don't do. Here's the thing. Tiana ride. If you haven't been able to do it, if you go to Disney, do the Tiana ride. Her Bayou Adventure. So much fun.

[Ash]

It's incredible.

[Elena]

A gorgeous ride. The end of that ride, one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

[Ash]

The whole thing.

[Elena]

Loved it.

[Ash]

And it's all. It's long.

[Elena]

It's long, but, like, in a good way. Very fun. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the little drops. I was able to handle them. And I was like, okay.

[Ash]

And maybe even the little drops are good.

[Elena]

They're pretty decent. I was impressed, you know, and. But I think it was like, my kids loved it so much, and I was sitting next to one of them and it was fun.

[Ash]

It was so cute.

[Elena]

So that was a lot of fun. You loved the Haunted man recommend doing that? I always love the Haunted Mansion, the best ride. That's a very fun one. I. I had a. I had a good day.

[Ash]

She wore ears.

[Elena]

I did.

[Ash]

I wore ears.

[Elena]

I did for part of the day. They gave me a headache halfway through.

[Ash]

I know. Sometimes they press on the back. Yeah, it was hot.

[Elena]

It was blazing hot, which I don't love.

[Ash]

I don't know how y' all live.

[Elena]

In Florida, but here's a little tip from me to you.

[Ash]

What's up?

[Elena]

In case you're going. I prepared for this because I said, we're not having a disastrous Disney trip like we did last time.

[Ash]

Never.

[Elena]

And I said, we're gonna make this a fun day, which means I'm gonna make everyone as comfortable as humanly possible, even though it's gonna be a thousand zillion degrees.

[Ash]

And it was.

[Elena]

I highly recommend the cooling towels. You can get, like, anywhere. You can order them anywhere.

[Ash]

Sometimes you can even get them at the park.

[Elena]

Yeah. And you just. All you do is wet them, and they stay wet and col. Long time. So you can just drape them over your neck or your shoulders. They work.

[Ash]

I don't Know what the science is behind those. But they're incredible.

[Elena]

They're very. And they're really easy to store in a backpack. So it's like, if you're looking for that, those little misting fans that you can get, highly recommend, they are good for a little, you know, little zap of that. And I took it up a notch this time.

[Ash]

What'd you do?

[Elena]

Because I said, I know my kids. I know they're gonna want to see this Main street parade. That parade's pretty awesome.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

It was pretty great.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

I had a good day. See, that's all I needed. I just needed a good day. I. I still. I don't want to do it again anytime soon. But we're gonna. We will eventually. But, like. Like, I'm not a theme park girl. It's just not my thing. You guys know that. But I had a. A good day, which is exactly what I was looking for. And she wanted a good time.

[Ash]

She's open to doing it again.

[Elena]

I am. Absolutely. And my kids had so much fun. That's really all I'm looking for is, like, the last time we. Everybody got sick, it just was. I didn't get to see their faces.

[Ash]

Their faces during the parade.

[Elena]

The parade was.

[Ash]

I said, I need to have eight children right now just to experience. Experience that. Experiencing that as an aunt. Incredible.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I can't imagine how that made you feel as a mama.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Seeing the little. The waving at the princesses.

[Ash]

Tiana.

[Elena]

Again with Tiana. I think I meant to be Tiana's friend. I think so. They. She. When she went by, she pointed at one of my kids and did the little heart, like, formed a heart. And my child beaming. I have not seen her that beaming. And she was like, Tiana just did.

[Ash]

A heart to me.

[Elena]

Like, it was. I was like, all right. This is very worth it.

[Ash]

I was very worth it. I was borderline about to cry.

[Elena]

Yeah. It was the sweetest thing ever. But what I did for that was I got a parasol.

[Ash]

And they sell parasols at Disney, which.

[Elena]

I didn't even know that. I just found that on my own. Get a parasol gun. If you don't like the heat and you're worried about that kind of stuff. I got one that, like, maybe I can try to post a link to it. I'll find where I got it. Cause it folded up really small. Even the little spokes of the umbrella itself bent upward to make it smaller. It was super compact, so I could put it in a bag. Easy peasy. And it like just crunched up. It was so worth it because they used it several times.

[Ash]

No, it was smart. And I was like low key making fun of you. Like before we were going, I was like everybod about a parasol. I saw so many people with parasols.

[Elena]

It's worth it.

[Ash]

You're with the trends.

[Elena]

So let me tell you, if you're thinking about it, it really does work. And take this from somebody who's essentially translucent. Yeah. And who has children who are also pretty translucent.

[Ash]

I'm translucent too. And I didn't even burn this time. I was so good about my sunscreen.

[Elena]

You. That's right. Oh, as you should be a recommendation.

[Ash]

Another one. Oh, that there's an elf like elf setting spray that has SPF 45. That's all I used for face sunscreen. Because a lot of times when you do like the cream, it gets in your eyes. And this one. Spray it on your face.

[Elena]

Good.

[Ash]

I spray it on my face probably like three, four times throughout the day. Not a hint of a sunburn.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Ash]

So that's a good one. Even just for the summer.

[Elena]

So there you go. These are summer recommendations.

[Ash]

That's our summer recommendation. I thought of something when I was, when I was there and I said, I gotta tell the listeners.

[Elena]

I gotta tell everybody.

[Ash]

I don't remember.

[Elena]

I'll post some. I. I went real ham with like preparing for this trip.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

If I think of any, like interesting hacks that I came up with, I'll be sure to post it for you guys. Just in case you have kids or.

[Ash]

Are traveling or just traveling in general. You and Drew Capricorn so hard. Because like you have kid like a million kids. So you had to get like 45 different things.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It was just me and Drew going.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Every day that I got home. Leading up to this vacation, he had a new thing for our trip. Cuz we drove.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

So you have to be like prepared for that. He got. This is a little bit gross, but I don't care. He got these toilet seat covers. He got these toilet seat covers and you put them down and they like adhese to the toilet seat. It changes. You're going to the bathroom experience. I hate a public restroom. To the point where like, even in school, like in high school, I didn't like going to the bathroom. Incredible. But yeah. I'll try to link the toilet seat covers.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Because they were great. Yeah.

[Elena]

Anything that works. I mean, I'm by no means a gatekeeper or, or like A. A professional when it comes to traveling or anything like that, but if it works with my kids or in us, honey, I'll share it.

[Ash]

Disagree. I think you became a professional planner. I think you should start a TikTok page of trips, even though you go on one once a year.

[Elena]

Yeah, I go. I don't go on many at all, but. But, hey, when I do, I really prepare for it. Right? So, yeah, I found a lot of good hacks.

[Ash]

I'm just so happy that you had a good time.

[Elena]

I'm glad we turned our Disney trip around. That was real rough that everybody got the stomach bug and, like, John was super sick. I was. Everybody was sick, and it was just such a lousy trip the first time. And it was weighing on us that that's the Disney trip that we had been planning forever. And so we were just determined.

[Ash]

You needed new memories.

[Elena]

I needed a good. And it was.

[Ash]

And you have them.

[Elena]

We got this one picture of John and one of my kids in front of the castle. I saw that fireworks going, and we're. I was like, we're framing.

[Ash]

Frame it. That's it.

[Elena]

There's just. It was. It was a good day. I didn't want to say it during the time, because I was like, don't say it. Jinx it. You'll jinx it. No, but they had a great time, and that's all that matters.

[Ash]

During the firework, I cried the first time I saw the fireworks at Disney. I'm not Disney adult. When Tinkerbell came flying by, sob, full sob, don't care. Cry every time.

[Elena]

You know, it's hilarious.

[Ash]

You hate that.

[Elena]

Do you hate that? No, I love it. I think it's adorable. That's what I was like. Oh, that's so cute. And I turned to one of my kids, who is very, like, myself.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

And I turned to her and I said, oh, my God, it's Tinkerbell.

[Ash]

What did she say?

[Elena]

If your kids are listening right now, please, I'm gonna say something that's gonna ruin the magic. So, like, skip forward. I just don't want to ruin other kids magic. No, but I was like, look at. Oh, my God, it's Tinkerbell. And she goes, yeah, I can see the wireless. I was like, what?

[Ash]

I was like, what wires?

[Elena]

Like, what? What wires?

[Ash]

You said she literally. She's crying.

[Elena]

She goes, she's ziplining.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And I was like, yeah. And she was like, she's not flying.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

Like, she was literally, like. She was looking at me like, mom, are you sorry? I'M ruining the magic for you. But she's not really flying.

[Ash]

You know what, though? As long as Tink is ziplining, as I thought you were gonna say something even worse.

[Elena]

No, she was like.

[Ash]

She was like that. That's not.

[Elena]

She was literally. Well, no, I think she essentially was like, that's a zipline. That's not really Tinkerbell. Fly or whatever.

[Ash]

Whatever.

[Elena]

Whatever, child. So I looked and I looked at her and I was like, please don't, like, say anything in front of a younger one. And she was like, of course I won't. And she hasn't. No, because the younger one brought it up. And she was like, I know. Wasn't that crazy?

[Ash]

Did you say, don't tell Titi either?

[Elena]

Don't tell Titi.

[Ash]

Don't tell Titi. She thinks that's Tinkerbell.

[Elena]

But I was like, my. Such. My logical child who's always looking to see how anything works.

[Ash]

Well, she wants to be an engineer.

[Elena]

Yeah. She immediately saw and was like, oh, I get it.

[Ash]

One thing I will say. And I say it every time I see the parade in between my tears. Where are those projectors? How do they project those images onto. Because, like, they. If you've ever seen the castle show, like, it's fucking crazy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

I've never seen the projector.

[Elena]

I haven't either.

[Ash]

And there's only so many ways you can make Tink flyer. Right?

[Elena]

That's fucking beautiful. I think it's great.

[Ash]

I think it's adorable.

[Elena]

So. So there you go. It's a much different take on. On what happened there.

[Ash]

It is.

[Elena]

Because a lot of. I displeased a lot of people who loved Disney that last time.

[Ash]

You don't want to piss those people off.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it wasn't me. It was just a bad trip coming.

[Ash]

From the Disney community. No, I'm just kidding.

[Elena]

You're like, just kidding. No, seriously.

[Ash]

But for real.

[Elena]

Shut up. But, yeah, so that was good. We got some good stuff coming up that we can't tell you about yet. Fun stuff, but you will find out and it will be awesome.

[Ash]

I think we say that every episode.

[Elena]

At this point, but it's coming. Yeah.

[Ash]

Manifesting it.

[Elena]

And I think with that, we can probably. This has been a long intro. Yeah. We don't do those all the time, so sometimes it happens.

[Ash]

He lived.

[Elena]

He lived. Hopefully. Geez.

[Ash]

Pour it out if you did.

[Elena]

Oh, my goodness. But yeah. So. Oh, quick little, little side side quest.

[Ash]

Are you gonna talk about the.

[Elena]

Anyone else hyper fixated on the conclave? Coming up, the Way I knew you.

[Ash]

Were about to talk about the Pope. Did you see me call that.

[Elena]

I'm sorry.

[Ash]

I said, are we about to talk about the. The concl.

[Elena]

Wild that this happened, like, right after the new papa and ghost was announced. Purple Spirit.

[Ash]

It's stuff.

[Elena]

It's crazy timing.

[Ash]

I'll give it to you.

[Elena]

But also, guys, and like, this is. No, I am not a religious person. You know this. I've. It's pretty clear by now.

[Ash]

Tanya, you knew here.

[Elena]

If you're shocked by that, I don't know what to tell you, but I'm hyper fixated on it because I feel like it's very gothic the way it all happens. It's very metal.

[Ash]

It is interesting.

[Elena]

This whole conclave and the burning of the ballots and the black smoke and the white smoke and everybody waiting for that smoke to happen. Love it. Yeah, love it. And if you. You want to bone up on. On the conclave on your pope knowledge and the. Hold on. I'm gonna look it up because I'm gonna give you somebody that you should follow. I love this creator to get all your the Pope games here.

[Ash]

He also covers the Berenstain Bear books and it's great.

[Elena]

The. He's a TikTok creator. He's on other platforms too, though. But I mainly follow him on TikTok. Rob Anderson.

[Ash]

So funny.

[Elena]

He's doing a thing where he's calling it the Pope Games and he's treating it like a Real Housewives kind of thing. But he's introducing all the would be popes and telling you what they stand for and against. So it actually he's giving you the information in like a very funny way.

[Ash]

It's fun.

[Elena]

But I'm like, this is very interesting.

[Ash]

He also gives them a housewives tagline.

[Elena]

Because again, I don't care at all about this stuff, but. But I'm weirdly hyper fixated on it. From a purely curiosity level.

[Ash]

It's interesting.

[Elena]

Like, it's a pure curious. Just me being like, this is a wild situation.

[Ash]

It is. I didn't know really anything about it.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When was the last conclave?

[Elena]

Francis has been a pope for. For a minute.

[Ash]

I thought he wasn't the Pope that long.

[Elena]

I mean, a lot some popes are popes for like 30 years and shit. That I know that long.

[Ash]

But I thought Francis was like kind of a short Pope.

[Elena]

He was only a few years, I think.

[Ash]

That's what I think. Yeah. So it's only been a few. That's also what I. So that's so they couldn't. It couldn't have been that long since the last conclave. I'm Googling.

[Elena]

Yeah, Google it. Find it out. But again, none of like, to each their own. The religious stuff doesn't really do anything for me with this, but it's. I'm just purely curious.

[Ash]

2013.

[Elena]

So he's been there for a minute.

[Ash]

I mean, that is a very long time ago, but in my brain it's not.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's over 10 years ago. So there's that shutters. But yeah. So become hyper fixated on that with me. Because it's fun. It's wild. It's a wild thing. And follow Rob Anderson because he's really funny. All his other content, all his stuff is funny. And that, I think, is the end of our very long intro. Wait.

[Ash]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Elena]

Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups? Probably so they never slip from her hands.

[Ash]

Could you imagine?

[Elena]

I'd lose it. Luckily, Reese has thought about that. Wonder what else they think about.

[Ash]

Probably chocolate and peanut butter.

[C]

At Mathis Home, we understand that your home is a reflection of you. And during our spring style event, we have fresh new looks that are waiting to make your home look and feel great at the lowest prices. With all the latest styles in bloom, you'll find savings in every department. Whether it's a clean and modern sectional or a rustic and traditional dining table, we have it in stock with fast and free delivery. Come find the look that's right for you during the spring style event at your furniture superstore, Mathis Home.

[Elena]

So today we're going to be discussing a very strange, very. It's brutal at parts.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

And then has a wild ending. Case this fun question mark. This. Well, this is the death of Ken McElroy.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

But he was known as the town bully.

[Ash]

Oh, Okay.

[Elena]

I don't want to tell you too much up front about what happens. I would like to leave the ending for the moment it happens, because you're just gonna be like, what the. The fuck is going on? Okay. So I'm gonna give you very little of what. I'm not gonna tell you how this ends. Just know the end. He dies. And that he was the town bully. All right, so this did happen. The. The. The act itself happens on July 10, 1981. Okay. When he. Ken McElroy was about 47 years old. This took place in Skidmore, Missouri. That's all I'm going to tell you about the end of it. Let's start at the beginning.

[Ash]

Now we it's so funny that this is 1981 because when you said the town bully, for some reason that just read as like 1900s.

[Elena]

Right. Didn't it? 1904. Yeah. That's how I thought too, but it was in the 80s.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

Bully is a nice way to describe him. I would say the town predator, the town monster, the town criminal, the town abuser, the town assaulter. Like he was pretty terrible.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

He was pretty terrible. Okay. So let's talk about him.

[Ash]

Let's.

[Elena]

His name was Kenneth Rex McElroy and he was born June 16, 1934.

[Ash]

That's why he's so terrible. He's a Gemini.

[Elena]

There you go.

[Ash]

Geminis are the most frightening. Yeah, I say that as Gemini, so calm down.

[Elena]

He was born in Overland Park, Kansas, and he was one of 16 children.

[Ash]

That's a lot.

[Elena]

That's many children.

[Ash]

One might say too many.

[Elena]

One might say me, no, because I won't step in that. But he. One might say it. I don't know who that one is, but not me.

[Ash]

That's what I said.

[Elena]

1. I didn't say it. His parents were Tony and Mabel McElroy. Mabel had married Tony when she was just 14 years old and he was 20.

[Ash]

Sounds illegal.

[Elena]

Very much so. And it really sets the tone for how Ken is gonna act later in life, I think.

[Ash]

I'm not gonna like that.

[Elena]

He married her because at 14 she was pregnant with Ken's oldest brother, Herschel.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So the apple does not fall far from this tree.

[Ash]

14?

[Elena]

Yeah. Born during the height of the Great Depression, Ken's early life was a bit of a struggle, for sure. The whole family was. Tony McElroy had always had a lot of difficulty finding and kind of like maintaining work. But it was because of his attitude and explosive temper, not just because it wasn't available. Just before the Depression started, he and Mabel had saved enough money to rent 14 or no, 400 acres of farmland in southern Missouri.

[Ash]

God damn.

[Elena]

Then they planted a very large corn crop there, thinking this is their time. Unfortunately, they had two rainless weeks in the summer of 1927 and it wiped out the entire crop.

[Ash]

Just two weeks?

[Elena]

Yeah. So he lost his entire investment.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

According to author Harry MacLean, the complete loss broke Tony and he eventually just had to go back to working really low paying construction and farming jobs in and around southern Missouri. In the years that followed that, they continued having children and struggling to get by on Tony's very meager wages, moving from one rented home to another whenever things would become harder, unaffordable when the four oldest McElroy boys became strong enough, they were put to work farming, clearing land. This allowed the family to finally settle down in a rented home in Skidmore, Missouri. Skidmore is a wild name. I don't know.

[Ash]

Is a wild name, and I feel like it's been featured in, like, something that I saw lately.

[Elena]

Really?

[Ash]

Yeah. I don't know.

[Elena]

Well, it's a small town of less than 100 residents.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

And it's in Nottaway county in northern Missouri. Okay, so less than 100 residents, very small town. According to McLean, Ken McElroy spent the first 13 years of his life as the child of a tenant farmer, living in someone else's house, subsisting at near poverty levels in a large family. And the bitterness of those years just never left him. To make matters worse, with 14 kids in the house, Ken was definitely not ever his father's favorite child and never even came close to being the favorite child.

[Ash]

I mean, that's a lot of competition.

[Elena]

That's a lot of competition.

[Ash]

But also, you're not allowed to have a favorite child.

[Elena]

You're not. You have to love them all. Now, with so much activity in the house, though both Tony and Mabel were working 12 or more hours a day. They were out of the house a lot. So Ken and his siblings came and went as they pleased and were never really noticed by his parents. Like, they just let it go.

[Ash]

It was a very different time.

[Elena]

But when Ken did get noticed, it was usually long enough for his father to yell at him for not doing what he was supposed to be doing. Okay, so not great.

[Ash]

That's shitty.

[Elena]

One would think that in a family with so many people in it, that maybe there'd be some close bonds between most of them. Maybe. I don't know, at least those close in age. But when it came to Ken, his brothers and sisters seemed to not really pay a lot of attention to him. Kind of like his parents didn't.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

So it was basically that. Because Ken spent a lot of his childhood by himself. In the winter, he skated on the pond, and in the summer he would hunt and trap animals, usually by himself.

[Ash]

That's really sad.

[Elena]

Yeah. During the Depression, it was common for a lot of, like, adolescents and teenage boys and some girls to be not going to school, absent from school a lot because they would need to stay home and help the family earn money. Essentially, in Ken's case, this was true. But even if they weren't growing up during the depression, he probably would have been absent anyways. He didn't like authority. He was not into education. And when he did show up for school, his appearance and hygiene were occasionally so bad that the teachers would either have to take him to the washroom and show him how to clean himself or they would just send him home because they said he smelled so bad that it was distracting to other kids.

[Ash]

Oh, that's really awful.

[Elena]

This lasted until ken turned about 15 and he dropped out of school.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Now, when it came to friends, he was never super successful at forming bonds with other children in the area either. At best, his teachers would find him kind of, like, surly and, like, sullen. Like, he just wasn't. But at worst, he was mean, aggressive and unmanageable. One of his former classmates said, when I came to Graham School in fourth grade, one of the first things the other kids told me was about Ken McElroy, the type of kid he was. I was told to stay away from him, that he pushed other kids around.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

Yeah. You're like 10 in fourth grade.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's wild.

[Elena]

Another classmate said that on his first day riding the bus with Ken, Ken got into a fight with. And this was Ken's first day riding the bus, Ken got into a fight with another student and Ken and one of his brothers pulled knives out and threatened to cut the other boy.

[Ash]

Holy shit.

[Elena]

And they said after that Ken had plenty of room on the bus?

[Ash]

I would assume so, yeah.

[Elena]

So it turned out the aggressive behavior that he was demonstrating at school was something he was definitely learning from home usually is. In one incident that Maclean talks about in his book, Ken was caught stealing from a general store in town, and the owner called his father, Tony, to tell him that Ken had stolen from him.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Rather than, like, reprimand his son for stealing and saying, like, hey, that's not good. You can't do that.

[Ash]

We're not allowed to.

[Elena]

Tony, quote, burst into the store with a long, curved hunting knife in his hand, slammed the owner up against the wall and held the knife to his throat and said, if you ever touch my boy again, I'll cut your heart out.

[Ash]

I think that's super rational.

[Elena]

I was like, whoa, here's the thing. The report that I that we saw was that he just called the father and was like, he's stealing? Yeah. He's saying, like, you ever touch my boy again, I'll cut your heart out. I don't know what happened if the owner, like, did something to him.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It's never good to threaten somebody with a knife. Don't do that.

[Ash]

Yeah. We don't recommend it.

[Elena]

I could understand the rage component there. If somebody touched my kid, I would also want to cut their heart out. But like, you don't threaten people with knife. It's illegal. But it also sounds, you know, this is a situation where you can both be angry at the owner if he touched your kid.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

But again, this was a time period where this probably wouldn't have been looked at as crazy if an owner like, slapped against the ceiling. But also, you have to reprimand your kid for stealing from someone.

[Ash]

Yeah, you can't, because otherwise they're just gonna keep stealing and think that you'll attack people with hunting knives.

[Elena]

Well, that's. This incident sent a very clear message to Ken and to everyone else in town that no matter what he did, no one had the right to control him or tell him what to do.

[Ash]

Or they'd have their heart cut out.

[Elena]

And from then on, Ken operated accordingly because this just did send a message to him.

[Ash]

I'd be fucking terrified. Like as a community member, I'd be fucking terrified.

[Elena]

Absolutely. And they were. Yeah, they eventually really, really were. Now, as Ken grew older, his reputation got worse and worse and his behavior became more and more problematic. Former classmate Bruce Roberts said he was in trouble so many times. After dropping out of school, he found work at a local plant nursery. But he was fired within his first week when the owner caught Ken, quote, fooling around with a young girl who also worked there.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

Now this began a trend of Ken finding work and then losing work a short time later because of his temper, his disinterest in authority, his disinterest in work. It would get the better of him. As far as Ken's former friend John saw it, he said he was always in the kind of self sabotage mode.

[Ash]

Sounds like it.

[Elena]

He said Ken never got over the fact that he was poor and he resented people who had money. He could never bring himself to do their shit work.

[Ash]

Huh.

[Elena]

It's like. But that's not like you can't treat people like. No, that's not going to get you anywhere.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

You'll never work your way to the.

[Ash]

Top with that attitude.

[Elena]

In 1952, when Ken was 18 years old, he married Oletta Holland, which was a girl two years younger than him. So she was 16. This was the first time Ken left the McElroy farm and struck out on his own. He didn't go very far, though.

[Ash]

I was going to say, how'd that go?

[Elena]

Yeah. After the marriage, Ken and Oletta moved to Denver, Missouri, which was a Small town about an hour away from Skidmore, and that's where one of Ken's sisters lived at the time. Oletta at the time, was pregnant when they moved to Denver. Unfortunately, they did have a stillborn baby.

[Ash]

Oh, that's awful.

[Elena]

Which is really sad. The move to Denver wasn't just an opportunity to start his own life with his new wife, though it was also looked to be like he was trying to start somewhere fresh where no one knew him and knew his reputation for being a complete dick wad.

[Ash]

Yeah, he already, like, pissed off too many people to get work.

[Elena]

Yeah, like you piss off a town of a hundred people. That's gonna be tough.

[Ash]

Yeah, word travels fast.

[Elena]

That's gonna be tough. Not long after they relocated, he found work on a construction crew. And he was determined. He was like, I'm gonna keep my anger in check. Like, he was telling Oletta, this is gonna be different. Until an accident derailed his newfound success. One day while he was working at the site, and he had been doing well up until here, a large piece of cribbing, which is a temporary support structure, fell from one of the beams 30ft above him and landed directly on his head.

[Ash]

Holy shit.

[Elena]

He was wearing a helmet. The blow split his construction helmet in half.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

And it cut him, obviously in his head and compressed his spine as well. Oh, fuck. Which caused muscle and nerve damage in his neck that he would have forever.

[Ash]

Yeah, compressed his spine.

[Elena]

So for Ken, who had never been one for an honest day's work, this was just a sign to him that the straight and narrow way of life was not for him.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

He took that as I tried to be good, I tried to go in the straight and narrow, and look what happens. Not long after that, he and Aletta picked up their things and went back to Skidmore.

[Ash]

Was workers comp a thing back then?

[Elena]

Right. Well. And he figured in Skidmore, he could find less dangerous and less scrupulous ways of finding money. So throughout his early adolescent and teen years, Ken had engaged in all manner of illegal activities, typically for no other reason than just enjoying doing illegal activity and hurting people. Like much of his other very undesirable behaviors and characteristics that he demonstrated in his youth, there was never any consequences for any of these illegal activities, which appears to have enforced his own little fucked up belief that regardless of whether it was right or wrong, no one was stopping him from doing it. There was never gonna be any consequences. So I'll just keep going. Yeah. He always got himself out of shit, and he did that for his whole life now, a slippery sloop it is. It does not work out for him. Now, once he and Aletta had settled back in a farm in Skidmore, he started out his criminal career pretty small. According to Harry MacLean, Ken, quote, rigged a toggle switch to shut off the running lights in his Ford and shored up the plywood lining in the back so that he could bear more of a substantial load in the back. With his truck now altered, he would drive the back roads of Skidmore and the surrounding areas, looking at the properties of local farmers and looking for calves or hogs that looked ready to be slaughtered and brought to market.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Once he would find one that he deemed suitable, he would make note of the closest entrance and return in the middle of the night, sneak on the property and steal the animal.

[Ash]

He was stealing people's farm animals.

[Elena]

Stealing people's farm animals.

[Ash]

That's messed up.

[Elena]

Most of the times he would just go a short distance to another farm and sell the stolen animal to that farmer who didn't ask where it came from.

[Ash]

He's like just. Just putting cows in the back of his truck.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now, throughout Skidmore and the surrounding towns, most adults knew how Ken made his money, but they looked the other way because they didn't want to get on his bad side because he was a scary.

[Ash]

Yeah, it sounds like it.

[Elena]

And on schoolyards across Nottaway county, there were other stories about Ken. According to Mlan, people whispered, quote, that he had raped a 14 year old Quitman girl who became pregnant and died delivering twins at home because she couldn't afford to go to the hospital.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Yeah. About a year later, McLean went on to say Ken returned and raped her older sister, who ended up marrying one of his best hunting buddies.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Oh, that's.

[Elena]

He's a fucking monster. And it gets worse. The extent these are rumors, these are all like things that are hard to verify. Right. But they are things that people were talking about and believed and they are reports of it. The extent of these, like how much is fact and how much is exaggerated as fiction for those specific rumors that I just talked about. But what is true is that around 1960 or so, Ken started hanging out with a lot of young people and he's a full blown adult, some much younger than himself. During this period of his life, when ken was about 21 or 22 years old, his best friend was reported to be a boy named Larry, who was at least a decade younger than him.

[Ash]

That's not normal.

[Elena]

Yeah. Now this that relationship is strange just as a friendship, but it was his relationships with younger women and girls that people around town were really concerned with. Well, I'm sure he used Larry to.

[Ash]

Meet girls to get young, comfortable, right?

[D]

Hey weirdos. If Ash and Elena's episode on Ken McElroy left you wondering how someone could become so cruel, manipulative and untouchable, you'll want to hear my psychological breakdown of this case. On my podcast Killer Psyche, I examined the twisted mindset behind McElroy's reign of terror, how he exploited fear, used charm as a weapon, and turned an entire town into his victims. Understanding what made him tick is exactly the kind of insight I bring on Killer Psyche, where I use my experience profiling criminals for the FBI to uncover what drives people like Ken McElroy to become predators. So if you're curious about the mind behind the mayhem, join me for an inside look at the psychology of a man who got away with everything until he didn't Follow Killer Psyche on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[E]

Lamont Jones world is shattered when his cousin dies in custody just weeks after entering prison.

[Ash]

Prison?

[E]

The official report says natural causes, but bruises and missing teeth tell a different story. From Wondery comes Death County, Pennsylvania, chilling true story of corruption and cover ups that begins as one man's search for answers, but soon reveals a disturbing pattern. Lamont's cousin's death is just one of many and powerful forces are working to keep the truth buried. With never before heard interviews and shocking revelations, Death County Pa pulls back the curtain on one of America's darkest institutional secrets. This isn't just another true crime story. It's happening right now. Follow Death County PA on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County PA early and ad free right now. By joining Wondery.

[Elena]

Around the same time that he was spending considerable time with Larry and using him to find girls, Ken also met a young woman in her late teens named Barbara, who soon became his go to drinking buddy. Oh God, a teenage girl.

[Ash]

It's so sad because when you're that age, like as a teenager and somebody older wants to hang out with you, it's so exciting and it's so fun. I don't think anything's wrong. And then you become an adult and you're like why the did that adult want to hang out with me when.

[Elena]

I was that age? No adult wants to hang out with teenagers like this for anything but nefarious reason.

[Ash]

It's so hard to tell teenagers that. Like, I was a teenager who hung out with older people and I remember you being like, no adult should want to hang out with you like that. And I was like, yeah, you're like that. I was like, you're so wrong. I have a great time. And now I realize it was weird.

[Elena]

That's nefarious as.

[Ash]

But it's so like. Like, how do you tell. How do you teach kids that?

[Elena]

I know. It's like. Cuz you have to like, shatter completely their illusion of the world.

[Ash]

Yeah. And their sense of self too.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like, you really have to. You have to be a little bit. You have to be a little.

[Ash]

You have to play them this podcast.

[Elena]

With them and you have to be like, not everybody is a good person. I've already had to tell my kids that. Yeah, not everybody's a good person. There are adults who are really bad people and they want to do bad things to kids. You have to be on the lookout for that.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Now, according to McLean, this type of behavior was quite common for Ken, who always seemed to have young women hanging around him.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

He wrote he would laugh and tell them they didn't have to worry about him. And this is. This is gross. He would say, you're too old for me. I like my women young and tender. I like that young meat.

[Ash]

Ew.

[Elena]

When Dave sent. Helped me with this research, he sent me a note on one of these that said, I'm so sorry for this when he sent that, because he was like, I'm sorry, you have to read this. Yeah, the. That's like, I apologize.

[Ash]

Heinous.

[Elena]

In fact, it was known around Skidmore that although he was married to Aletta at the time, Ken would often carry on sexual relationships with girls as young as 12 or 13 years old.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

Meaning not sexual relationships.

[Ash]

Rape.

[Elena]

Rape. He was raping 12 and 14 or 13 year olds and he was claiming, like, these are relationships.

[Ash]

And poor Oletta, too. Cause remember she was 14 when he got her.

[Elena]

One of those girls who is referred to as Donna G. That's not her real name, would frequently sneak out of her house at night to meet him.

[Ash]

She was probably excited to be assaulted by him. Yep.

[Elena]

About a year later, according to McLean, Donna gave birth to Ken's first child, a son.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Of all the crimes and awful behavior that the people of Skidmore were tolerating from Ken, the hardest for most of them to tolerate was his predatory behavior with young girls.

[Ash]

Of course, I can't imagine.

[Elena]

And also his Violence against women in general. Because, like, just giving you a heads up, like, he is a violent, abusive man, like, and I'm going to mention a couple of instances and it will be difficult to hear.

[Ash]

Not surprising.

[Elena]

Not long after moving back to Skidmore from Denver, Ken started an affair with a 15 year old local girl named Sharon. One Evening in either 1959 or 1960, Ken and Sharon were arguing in his car when he pulled out a shotgun and held it to her face and said if she didn't shut up, he was gonna blow her head off. Now, nobody knows if it was intentional or not, but the gun discharged and it tore open the underside of Sharon's chin.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

And it seriously injured her in the chin and neck.

[Ash]

It's incredible that she even lived.

[Elena]

For the first time, the police were called and charges were filed finally against this fucking asshole. But as always, he found a way to avoid any consequences.

[Ash]

How the fuck.

[Elena]

And explain. So he explained things to Oletta, his wife.

[Ash]

Huh?

[Elena]

And Ken insisted he had to divorce her and marry Sharon in order to avoid being convicted for the shooting.

[Ash]

Because you can shoot your wife. What?

[Elena]

Oletta agreed and the two were soon divorced. And Ken took up with the teenager, Sharon.

[Ash]

Well, that's a. Oletta probably saw that as her ticket out.

[Elena]

Yeah, yeah. Who soon gave birth to a son they named Jerome. Jerome, Yep. Jerome would eventually be taken in and raised by Ken's sister Helen.

[Ash]

Luckily, the fact that this woman had to marry a man who shot her in the face and then birth his child and then have that child taken away from her, that's so, yeah, I.

[Elena]

Feel for Sharon big time now. Throughout the 1950s and 60s, McElroy and his various criminal associates continued, continued their theft, their illegal sales schemes, assaults, batteries, break ins. They did every. They were literally tormenting this town. Like this town lived in fear of this man. And he would just avoid arrest or consequences through intimidation tactics or just threats of violence. Like he was literally running it and.

[Ash]

He shot a girl in the face.

[Elena]

That those tactics actually worked is a testament to his reputation for how violent he was. And Ken's capacity for violence was on full display in the summer of 1968 when Ken and three of his associates, Larry Combs, Raymond Hayward and Glenn Hayward, were arrested for a brutal assault on 52 year old Glenn Graham, a farmer in Skidmore.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Now, according to Graham, the farmer, he and his daughter went out to the pasture, their pasture that evening on June 13, to check on their horses, when they were the victims of a completely unprovoked attack, and it was by four men who were armed with brass knuckles and clubs.

[Ash]

Oh, fuck.

[Elena]

Graham's daughter, Anita Foster, told police she heard her father call out for help. And when she ran to see what was happening, she saw the men had her father on the ground and were kicking and punching him all over his body. This gets gnarly. The sheriff's report stated one of his eyes was kicked out of his head. Oh, my God. Yes.

[Ash]

Holy shit.

[Elena]

The actual report states one of his eyes was kicked out of his head.

[Ash]

How does that even happen?

[Elena]

That is brutal on a level I can't even describe.

[Ash]

Oh, my. I just keep closing my eyes.

[Elena]

When Anita, the daughter, ran to help her father, quote, one of the four men assaulted her, held her down against the hood of a car, choked her, hit her in the stomach and threatened her with death.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

A neighbor, Jim Swope, called the police when he heard the assault. And when he ran to help one of the amendment, the men attacked him as well.

[Ash]

Holy.

[Elena]

Because all four men were known to Graham and his daughter, they were quickly rounded up and charged with assaults and intent to do great grievous bodily harm.

[Ash]

Even though they did do grievous bodily harm.

[Elena]

Despite the severity and completely unprovoked nature of the beating, a judge agreed to release the men on as little as $2,500 for bond. Even Blanche was just like, what the fuck?

[Ash]

I was just gonna say that. What?

[Elena]

Most of them were out of jail within a couple days.

[Ash]

They kicked a man's eye out.

[Elena]

Yeah. And we're literally beat. Beat his daughter brutally and threatened to kill her. And threatened to kill her. In his testimony given during the preliminary hearing a month later, Graham, the. The victim, the farmer, told the judge when they arrived in the pasture, Ken McElroy, quote, came from the direction of a nearby house and accused Graham of calling him names. That's what this is stemmed from. Graham tried to tell McElroy that he didn't know him and certainly hadn't called him any names, but McElroy only punched him in the face. And then the three other men joined in after that. Among the injuries he sustained during this attack were several broken bones in his face. His jaw was broken in two places. He had damage to his left eye, which had to be stitched back into its socket because, remember, it was kicked out of his fucking head before fleeing the area. Ken McElroy told Graham, quote, we're going to do the same thing to your daughter if you report this. Oh. And he repeated it twice as he ran out of the scene.

[Ash]

What the fuck is wrong with this guy? He's a demon.

[Elena]

He's a demon. A few days later, the charges against McElroy and Glenn Hayward were dropped.

[Ash]

Don't even fucking say it.

[Elena]

But this is. This proves you right here that polygraph exams are fucking bullshit.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

They were dropped after both men passed polygraph examinations testing whether they were involved in the beating, which they denied. What a joke. But Glenn Graham and Anita Foster were also given polygraph examinations. The two victims during which they insisted McElroy and Hayward were the assailants. And they also passed.

[Ash]

It's also like, guys, in this town of a hundred people, there's one man who's been terrorizing all of you for really lying.

[Elena]

Like, come on. And the prosecutor told a reporter, it's the first time I have been faced with defendants and prosecuting witnesses telling the truth and being of opposite belief thieves. It's like they were like, literally, like, this is the first time that the polygraph exam has said they are telling the truth. And they are also telling the truth, but they have opposite stories.

[Ash]

Like, at that point, they should have thrown it out the window.

[Elena]

Like, that's bullshit.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Hot dog.

[Ash]

Hot dog.

[Elena]

In the truth. Like, we're truly.

[Ash]

Yup.

[Elena]

So the dismissal of charges against McElroy and Haywood caused outrage among the locals. This was the moment when everybody was like, fuck this shit. The fact that he's gonna get out of this.

[Ash]

You can't kick a man's eye out and not expect public outrage.

[Elena]

One resident wrote letter to the local paper and said, are these people released to go out and conduct other crimes and maybe kill next time?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Should I and other men take the law in our hands to protect the ones we love?

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Which is like, I mean, I don't.

[Ash]

Know if the law enforcement in your house is going to let that shit happen.

[Elena]

So the letter writer was right to assume that they would go on to commit other crimes. In fact, in the months that followed, Ken and these associates only seemed to increase their criminal activities in and around Skidmore.

[Ash]

Of course they did. They were emboldened.

[Elena]

They were emboldened. In the winter of 69, a farmer's co op warehouse was robbed twice of several cases of fertilizer and pesticides totaling in the thousands.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

Expecting that these thieves were going to return a third time, the co op hired an elderly night watchman to guard the place and armed him with a shotgun. A few weeks later, when the guard heard the sound of somebody trying to break back into the building, he called out and the thieves ran away. But the guard aimed the shotgun in the direction that they were running away and fired several warning shots just to scare them. The night watchman said he never saw the faces of the men trying to break in and he couldn't identify them. But According to Harry MacLean, quote, the night of the third burglary, a man had some shotgun pellets removed from his rear end in a small town not far from St. Joseph. The man was Ken McElroy.

[Ash]

I love that the elderly night watchman shot his ass.

[Elena]

He shot his ass. Literally. Now Ken McElroy's violent and very unpredictable temper and his growing criminal enterprise at this point were a constant threat to the town and the locals.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But equally problematic and much more disgusting to the locals was his constant predation on teenage girls. In 1961, he was 26 years old and he met and began an affair with Alice Wood, who was a 15 year old girl who worked at a local pharmacy.

[Ash]

And did he. He ended up marrying another 15 year old girl like a few years earlier.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Yep.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

In 1964 he had left his previous wife.

[Ash]

Good.

[Elena]

And now moved in with Alice. And in 1968 they were married.

[Ash]

Like, who's allowing this?

[Elena]

That's what it's. This time period is wild.

[Ash]

Well, but even at that time, I like, this is like the 70s, you could.

[Elena]

Your parents allow it then a lot of these, the parents would end up having to. They would be like bullied into it.

[Ash]

Gonna keep my mouth shut up.

[Elena]

Yeah. Like all the other women in his life, Alice suffered constant physical and verbal abuse from Ken that went unreported for the most part in one instance early in the marriage. And this is very upsetting just so you know. This is like domestic assault. Just so you're aware. Ken returned home to find Alice packing clothes in a box and immediately exploded into a violent rage because he assumed that she was leaving him before she could explain that she was just putting the clothes into storage for the season.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

He had, quote, grabbed her by the hair and swung her into a wall.

[Ash]

Oh my God.

[Elena]

Yeah. And this apparently was a very typical experience that women or young girls who got involved with Ken McElroy would deal with on a regular basis by the.

[Ash]

Hair, into a wall.

[Elena]

He was very physically abusive. Sexually abusive. Physically abusive. Verbally abusive. Any possible emotionally abusive? Nearly all of Ken's relationships were frowned upon by the townspeople. But no one seemed like they were going to do anything about this behavior. Like they were like being bullied into submission almost the Worst and most egregious of his relationships, which would also prove to be his last. And I think the tipping point that ended his reign of terror began sometime in 1969. He met 12 year old Trina McNeely.

[Ash]

12.

[Elena]

You have to remember that right now, he is 27 years old and she is 12. 12.

[Ash]

He was 15 when she was born.

[Elena]

Yep. He's 27 years old and she is twelve. He is a fucking monster. I don't even want to know. Yep. So although he couldn't prove it at the time, Trina's uncle, Sheriff's deputy Russ Johnson, suspected Ken of preying on schoolgirls when he stopped by a school dance one night and found Ken hanging around the middle school girls.

[Ash]

Middle school, like, what the fuck, dude?

[Elena]

Later, Johnson learned that Ken had intimidated Trina's date into picking her up and bringing her to him at the school, Then bringing her home after.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

So, like delivering Trina to him, Essentially. Ew. From that point on, it became common knowledge among the kids on the schoolyard that Ken had been arranging to meet Trina before or after school, Often picking her up at the end of the school day. Sometimes Trina would get other students to sign her mother's name on absentee notes. And instead of going to class, Ken would meet her at the bus stop and take her to Skidmore for the day.

[Ash]

And again, she's probably excited that an older man is expressing interest in her. Because she doesn't know better.

[Elena]

Exactly. And also she's terrified. He was keeping her cat like he was threatening her. Yeah, of course. This was a captive situation and she was just doing whatever she could to survive it.

[Ash]

Yep.

[Elena]

Because one former friend said in the beginning she was more or less a captive. And then she said, then they said, and sooner or later, when everybody abandoned her, she just gave up and went along with it.

[Ash]

Because that's what they do. They isolate you.

[Elena]

Of course. That's exactly what she's to a 12 year old.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Throughout the years that he'd known Trina, Ken had abused her in nearly every way possible, including stalking, sexual assault, setting fire to her parents home.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

And shooting her dog.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

He has literally stalked, abused police, raped, committed arson to her parents house, and shot her dog.

[Ash]

Like, I just don't understand why they're not putting him behind bars.

[Elena]

That's what I'm saying.

[Ash]

That's how you stop people from doing crazy.

[Elena]

Last year long crime brought you the trial that captivated the nation. She's accused of hitting her Boyfriend. Boston police officer John o' Keefe with her car. Karen Reed is arrested and charged with second degree murder. The six week trial resulted in anything but resolution. We continue to find ourselves at an impasse. I'm declaring a mistrial in this case. But now the case is back in the spot. And one question still lingers. Did Karen Reed kill John o' Keefe?

[Ash]

The evidence is overwhelming that Karen Reed is innocent.

[Elena]

How does it feel to be a cop killer, Karen? I'm Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with Law and Crime and host of the podcast Karen the Retrial. This isn't just a retrial. It's a second chance at the truth. I have nothing to hide. My life is, is in the balance and it shouldn't be.

[Ash]

I just want people to go back to who the victim is in this. It's not her.

[Elena]

Listen to episodes of the Retrial exclusively and ad free on wondery. Well, in 1971, when Trina was 14 years old, she became pregnant with Ken's child and dropped out of school to move in with him. And Alice, who C. Is still living with with Alice later denied that they lived together at any point, like all in the house together. But he was fearing that he might be facing statutory rape charges, which. Yes.

[Ash]

Yeah, you.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Ash]

Why all of a sudden is he fearing that?

[Elena]

So he bullied her parents into letting him marry her and then. And divorced Alice and they married in 1974. Like, he like threatened that he would like, kill her. Threatened he would kill them. Like, they were totally put into a horrible. Like the whole thing is just beyond anybody's comprehension.

[Ash]

Yeah. Because to allow, certainly beyond my comprehension.

[Elena]

I can't comprehend allowing that to happen. I just can't. But you have to think about if they did allow that to happen, what was going on here? You know what I mean? Like how bad it was. Yeah. And when you find out what happens to Ken and how, how many people are complicit in it happening. He was really bad for it to go.

[Ash]

Everything you've said. He's raped a 12 year old. He's raped like multiple, multiple, multiple children.

[Elena]

Throughout the 1970s, Ken McElroy continued to terrorize the people of Skidmore with violence, theft, being a sexual predator, all the fun things. In 1973, he was facing charges of forcible rape, assault with a dangerous and deadly weapon, and arson. But he was released on bond and managed to get the charges dropped.

[Ash]

That's good. That makes sense.

[Elena]

A few Years later, in 1976, Ken shot his neighbor, Romaine Henry in the stomach after a minor argument and was quickly arrested for the shooting because, like, you shot your neighbor.

[Ash]

Why do they even bother arresting him?

[Elena]

Though this one's wild. Before the trial had even begun, Ken burned the judge's barn to the ground and stalked several members of the jury and got himself acquitted.

[Ash]

Oh, okay.

[Elena]

He burned the judge's barn down and stalked the jury until he was acquitted.

[Ash]

That's just a Tuesday for Ken.

[Elena]

There is no stopping him. No, there is, though the pattern continued four years later when McElroy shot 72 year old grocer Ernest Bowenkamp in the neck.

[Ash]

Thank God.

[Elena]

Ken was indicted for the shooting, but when the trial came in summer of 1981, the charge had been reduced and McElroy was convicted of a simple assault charge and he was released on bond pending an appeal date which was scheduled for early July.

[Ash]

That's good.

[Elena]

Bowenkamp's wife Lois said, Same old story. Police arrest him, courts let him go. So, like, she told a reporter that she's like, when is this gonna stop?

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Like, are we really just gonna keep this going?

[Ash]

And the town said, yeah.

[Elena]

A few days later, one of the locals spotted Ken and Skidmore waving a gun around, which was in direct violation of the terms of his bond. The witness signed an affidavit and agreed to testify at the bond hearing, which.

[Ash]

Was brave as fuck.

[Elena]

When the hearing date arrived, the townspeople learned that the bond hearing had been pushed back to an undecided date in the future. Fantastic. To everyone in Skidmore, it seemed like Ken McElroy had managed to find a way to avoid facing every single consequence in his entire life.

[Ash]

That must have been maddening.

[Elena]

The result they were fearing was that Ken would only become angrier, more vengeful, more powerful, and eventually he would take it out on the entire town.

[Ash]

Had he not already, like, he.

[Elena]

They were like, something even bigger is going to happen here. Like he's not going to stop. We're all going to be dead at the end of this.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

On the afternoon of July 10, a large group of Skidmore locals met at a Legion hall meeting. At a Legion hall, A little town meeting at the Legion hall just to discuss the situation that they found themselves in. For decades, Ken McElroy had preyed on the people of Skidmore. He had terrorized them. He had kept them hostage in their own homes. I mean, they were terrified. They were. He had victimized them all in one way or another. And it seemed like even law enforcement was too afraid of him to do anything about it. By that point, he'd shot more than a handful of people like, and was liable to go on doing so until he finally killed people. Killed everybody in the town. Yeah, yeah. They all agreed something needed to be done about the situation. And if the law wasn't going to do anything about it, maybe they would have to do something about it. Girl, as the group was talking, as they're talking in the Legion, this is a true, like, take a sip of your drink.

[Ash]

I'm getting ready. Like, bitch, I'm getting a little comfier.

[Elena]

As the group was talking, Ken entered the DNG Tavern, which was just like a bar he had been in a few days earlier after the conviction for assault.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

And the bartender remembered him saying, I've been fighting prosecutors since I was 13 years old, and I'm damn near 50. This is the first time I've lost.

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Imagine that, man being in your town for nearly 50 years doing the shit he was doing. Yeah.

[Elena]

The conviction, or more likely, the loss, had made Ken angry. And on that day, he was in one of his shittier moods, which almost always meant to the people of Skidmore, something bad is going to happen. He's gonna hurt someone. Someone. As Ken sat quietly at the bar, muttering about the conviction, pissing and moaning and angrier and angrier, one of the patrons slipped out of the bar and ran over to the Legion hall and told everybody, hey, everybody, Ken's over there and he is spitting mad. So, like, something bad's gonna happen. And the fact that they all knew, like, this is mad and bitching about something, somebody's gonna get hurt.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's bad.

[Elena]

That's like, that's scary. Now. Ordinarily, this news would have cleared the room and sent everyone scrambling back to their homes just to wait.

[Ash]

Locking their doors, closing their shades, they.

[Elena]

Would, like, wait things out, like, until he had chilled out. The group of men, though, all left the Legion hall and walked over to DNG Tavern, where they found Ken finishing his drink. And the group of men just stared at him silently, wordlessly, until he got up from his bar stool and then he walked out the door. And they just wordlessly, no one said a fucking word. They all just walked out after him. And again, no one's talking. And he goes outside and he gets in his truck where Trina, his 12 year old bride, who is now, you know, she's a few years older now, but that's that. Trina was waiting for him in the truck. The men all watched as Ken put the keys in the ignition. And then before turning and starting the engine, they watched him light a cigarette. And then, out of nowhere, nobody could figure out where gunshots rang out.

[Ash]

Stop it.

[Elena]

One after the other after the other. From different vantage points, different guns, just pow, pow, pow, pow, pow. All. Whoa. What happened?

[Ash]

A barrage.

[Elena]

By the time the shooting had stopped, the car had been riddled with bullets.

[Ash]

Was Trina okay?

[Elena]

Trina's okay.

[Ash]

Okay.

[Elena]

But the car had been riddled with bullets of various calibers from various guns.

[Ash]

Strange.

[Elena]

The first shot, a slug from a.30.30 30 rifle, I think it's called.

[Ash]

Couldn't tell.

[Elena]

I don't know anything about guns. I apologize. Like, please don't get mad at me. It's a rifle. It shattered the back window of the truck and it struck Ken in the base of his skull, tearing through his tongue and teeth before exiting through his cheek.

[Ash]

That's like low key poetic because. Remember that time when he shot a child in the face?

[Elena]

Exactly. It would eventually be found a few yards away in the wall of a small hut down the street from the Cavern. Nobody was hurt. Don't worry.

[Ash]

That's good.

[Elena]

The second shot that hit McElroy came from a.22 caliber rifle and was fired from farther down the street. The bullet hit him in the upper skull and into his brain before exiting the other side of his head. According to MacLean, there was also, quote, substantial evidence that a shotgun was also fired at the truck, which would have accounted for the smaller pellet wounds found in McElroy's neck, neck and face.

[Ash]

How terrible.

[Elena]

When the shooting stopped, someone pulled Trina out of the car while this was happening as well. Like, literally dragged her to safety.

[Ash]

Wow. This is a movie.

[Elena]

And they kept her there until it was all over. When it was clear there would be no more shooting, someone called the sheriff's department to report the death of Ken McElroy.

[Ash]

He said, that's crazy. He just keeled over.

[Elena]

Of course, the sheriff was already in town. In fact, he had been at the Legion hall with everyone not long before the shooting.

[Ash]

Wait, no way. He was getting a drink at that.

[Elena]

Same time he was at the Legion hall where the meeting occurred.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

Under the circumstances, it wouldn't really be appropriate for him to investigate the case. Feels like a little bit of a conflict.

[Ash]

He said, you know what? I have something going on right now. You know, how about the deputy?

[Elena]

The deputy, the deputy. Maybe get the deputy on this one. So the case was handed over to the Northwest Missouri Investigative Squad, or Nomis Nomus, a task force of law enforcement Officers from the surrounding counties who occasionally called were called upon to investigate unusual crimes.

[Ash]

No, don't bother the task force with this. He just. It was a bad time. He died.

[Elena]

We're not even done.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

Because the News of Ken McElroy's murder spread quickly and soon journalists from around the country flocked to Skidmore to interview the town that from all appearances had taken the law into their own hands. Unfortunately for those people, no one in Skidmore would talk to anybody. Well, they didn't literally anybody. And they never would.

[Ash]

What?

[Elena]

When I tell you no one talked, no one saw nothing.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

No one, not one person in this town said, let me tell you what I saw.

[Ash]

That's brotherhood.

[Elena]

In his statement to no miss investigators and eventually to Missouri FBI agents, Sheriff Dan Estes, the sheriff that was like, whoops, can't be there. He admitted that he had met with a group of 35 or 40 men at the Legion hall that afternoon to discuss their concerns about the Bowen camp case. And like the guy who. This 70 year old man grocer who was shot in the neck. Yeah. And of McElroy in general. They were just discussing their concerns that he's a problem, that's all. But he adamantly denies having anything to do with the shooting.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

In fact, when the man from the tavern came into the hall to tell them McElroy was in town, Estes distinctly recalls telling them all we're not going to go down there and do anything.

[Ash]

Right boys?

[Elena]

Then he left assuming everyone would simply go home. That's what he said.

[Ash]

And they did.

[Elena]

He said, I told him we're not going down there and doing anything. He did his job. As far as I'm concerned, that sheriff did his job. He said we're not going to do anything, are we? And they said nope. And he said I. I'll believe you. He said, wink, wink. Based on the evidence collected at the scene and from McElroy's body, there had been at least four shooters all firing from different positions along the street.

[Ash]

That's crazy.

[Elena]

One was directly behind the truck. One was off to the driver's side. Another was down the hill a few yards and another was about half a block away by the post office.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

Despite the fact that there were about 40 people in town that day, investigators found it nearly impossible to find anything. Who would administer admit they saw anything?

[Ash]

Anyone?

[Elena]

Anyone? Anything? Nothing.

[Ash]

Anywhere?

[Elena]

Anywhere, anytime, any place. One elderly man, one elderly guy told investigators he'd seen at least three men with guns just before the shooting started. Couldn't Tell you who they were, just that they were guys with guns. But a short time later, his attorney withdrew the statement. He never said that, citing his client's health problems.

[Ash]

He never said that. And he didn't mean it. It either.

[Elena]

And those who would talk would talk mostly to reporters. Lois Bowenkamp, who had everything.

[Ash]

She said, I have something to say.

[Elena]

She told reporters justice had finally been served. She said, you know how awful it was living in a town with Ken McElroy. She said, My neighbor and I took turns sleeping at night. It was. Yeah, that's how scary it was to live in that town with him.

[Ash]

That tells you something.

[Elena]

Yeah. A few weeks later, on August 2, a grand jury was assembled to review the evidence and determine whether it was was sufficient to warrant an indictment for murder on who the problem was. Investigators had no suspect to indict. Trina said in her statement. It seemed so strange. There were vehicles lining the street, but no people anywhere. A man in the crowd told me to stay in the truck, that they wanted to shoot me too, but someone else pulled me out. In the end, the grand jury determined there wasn't enough evidence to indict anyone. And the district attorney declined to press charges against any of the people who were there the day McElroy was shot. The coroner's determination was that Ken was killed by a person or persons unknown. And Trina's lawyer, Richard McFadden, said, We are disappointed but not surprised. Now we can only hope for the Justice Department to complete its report soon. If Trina and her lawyer were hoping that something would come out of the Justice Department's report, they were probably disappointed by the outcome. When he was asked about the potential for an arrest or indictment, District Attorney David Baird told reporters any hope of making a case against McElroy's killer or killers faded when a county grand jury disbanded to September 28th without issuing issuing.

[Ash]

Any indictments, they said, we just don't know.

[Elena]

A short time later, the f the Missouri FBI wound down their investigation too, finding little evidence that would lead them to a suspect and virtually no one who would even admit to being in town that day. Damn. Trina and a few members of the McElroy family tried to speak out against the injustice that they saw. But eventually that died down too.

[Ash]

You feel for his family for sure.

[Elena]

For sure.

[Ash]

That's tough.

[Elena]

After spending years researching the case for his book, Harry MacLean isn't convinced that there are many people left in Skidmore who really know what happened. He said. I don't think the guys on the street that day, went home and told their wives and kids, I think they went back home, got on their tractors and shut up. Former sheriff's deputy Dick Luzier more or less agrees with that assumption. He told A reporter in 2001, they were so relieved that Ken McElroy was gone that it didn't matter to them whether the shooting was right or wrong. In the four decades since his murder, no one has ever been charged with or even suspected of McElroy's murder. Murder, no suspects.

[Ash]

Damn.

[Elena]

Mayor Tracy Shuey said, just because those bad things happen doesn't mean the whole town and the whole community is bad. For newcomers, it does come up, but what we say is that's not all that we're about. We've had a couple of things that have been not so pleasant. But to us, that doesn't define the town. Please see past that. If you can't, you've got to move on.

[Ash]

She said, if you can't, get the fuck out of schedule.

[Elena]

Tracy said, get the fuck out of here. We don't talk about it anymore. It is what it is.

[Ash]

She said, shut your mouth. Mouth.

[Elena]

And that is the wild death of Ken McElroy, known as the town bully, which is a nice name, I would say for him.

[Ash]

It's a good anecdote to learn from. Yeah.

[Elena]

You can't spend your life terrorizing kindness your community. Don't do it sad. The ending of that case had my jaw on the ground.

[Ash]

Well, I know I didn't really see that coming.

[Elena]

I'm very glad that Trina was not hurt and that somebody pulled her out the.

[Ash]

Of.

[Elena]

Of the situation.

[Ash]

And I'm sorry for his family that.

[Elena]

They didn't, of course, be closure like, you know, it's, it's a person. It's a person that.

[Ash]

Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure they had different feelings for him.

[Elena]

Of course they did.

[Ash]

Like.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

There are monsters in every family that.

[Elena]

You know, that their family loves. So it's like, you know, that's just the way it is. But obviously vigilante justice is a very slippery slope and a very, A lot. It's a complex and very nuanced thing. There's, it's, you know, this is a situation.

[Ash]

Wow.

[Elena]

That I'm more. I'm mostly interested in the fact that no one ever rarely see people come together and just keep a secret like that or keep just. No one saw nothing.

[Ash]

That's why.

[Elena]

But I think they're right. I think this is a. This was a community of, like, farmers and, you know, blue Collar workers and they're all, you know, like, like they're working hard during a hard time.

[Ash]

Well, they're getting their rocked every day.

[Elena]

And they're getting their rocked every day by this guy. Most of them are scared to go to sleep. And like the fact that she said children aren't safe.

[Ash]

The children aren't like he's going to.

[Elena]

School yards, like he's going to school dances. Like there's nowhere that anywhere is safe here.

[Ash]

Well, if you didn't know like any other detail other than the fact that one woman said her and her neighbor took shift sleeping.

[Elena]

That alone will tell you what kind of fear he had them living under.

[Ash]

Can like genuinely sit here right now and imagine you call up your neighbor to wake them up because it's their turn to watch for the town bully.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like that's like, that's crazy. And that was not even that long ago.

[Elena]

And they were just. They were tired of living under complete tyranny and just like, you know. Well.

[Ash]

And if the law is not going to do anything in a case.

[Elena]

I'm not saying what's right and what's wrong. I'm just saying like this is a wild case.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And it's a wild case of you can't treat people like for your whole life.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And expect anything good to come out of it.

[Ash]

It's hard to say too much.

[Elena]

But exactly like because again, I'm not condoning shooting people by any stretch of the imagination.

[Ash]

Never ever.

[Elena]

It's a horrifying sight to think about.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

It actually, it's more or less just me saying you gotta think about how you treat people.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

Because.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

People in every different way. So you don't know what you're doing.

[Ash]

I've never heard another story quite like that.

[Elena]

Me neither. It's shocked. That's the thing. It's just a shocking, shocking story.

[Ash]

Dave found that one.

[Elena]

Dave found that one.

[Ash]

Dave.

[Elena]

Dave.

[Ash]

Dave has the craziest.

[Elena]

Dave finds the crazy. Like the. The. Some of the most fascinating stories and most interesting ones I've heard. Everyone came out of the mind of Dave.

[Ash]

For real. Damn. Wow. Well.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

We hope you keep listening. And after that we're pretty sure you will.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you terrorize a town to the point where there's quite literally no return.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Ash]

Don't. Just don't do that.

[Elena]

They'll meet at the Legion Hall.

[Ash]

They will. Or the VFW. That's all I could picture.

[Elena]

That's basically it, bye. SA foreign.

[Ash]

If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short [e-mail] survey.