Episode Revisit: The Unexplained Death of Ellen Rae Greenberg

Summary

Morbid Podcast Episode Summary

Podcast: Morbid
Episode: Episode Revisit: The Unexplained Death of Ellen Rae Greenberg
Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: November 24, 2025

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Overview

In this revisit episode, Ash and Alaina tackle the perplexing and controversial case of Ellen Rae Greenberg, a young Philadelphia teacher whose 2011 stabbing death remains unsolved and officially ruled a suicide—a conclusion many experts, and Ellen’s family, fervently dispute. Through gripping storytelling, medical insight, and their trademark banter, the hosts break down the bizarre forensic details, police missteps, and the ongoing fight for justice. The episode’s tone is outraged yet compassionate, with frequent moments of incredulity at the official findings.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Who Was Ellen Greenberg?

(08:13 – 11:50)

• Ellen was the only child of Sandy and Joshua Greenberg, beloved, warm, and joyful: “She had an infectious smile... you could call her if you needed someone.” – Ash (08:33)
• She went to Penn State, got a degree in Communications, and then became a beloved first-grade teacher after attending Temple University.
• Ellen had been engaged to Sam Goldberg after three years of dating. The couple seemed happy, but Ellen was reportedly stressed by work and wedding planning.

2. Ellen's Mental Health and Treatment

(11:40 – 13:13)

• Ellen experienced anxiety and trouble sleeping but “no one was, like, overly concerned in the regard that they thought she was going to harm herself.” – Ash (12:16)
• Began seeing a psychiatrist and was prescribed Klonopin and Ambien; previously on Zoloft.
• Dr. Ellen Berman, her psychiatrist, explicitly noted “not suicidal” in her file.

3. The Day of Ellen's Death

(14:31 – 16:55)

• January 26, 2011: Snowstorm, schools closing early. Ellen returned home after work, ran errands, talked to friends and her mom—an entirely unremarkable, normal day.
• Sam leaves for the gym in their building, returns to find the apartment door locked.

4. Sam Goldberg’s Actions and Discovery

(16:57 – 21:28)

• Sam could not get in due to a swing-bar lock, sent a series of testy texts (17:03), increasing in irritation:

  • "Hello"
  • "Open the door"
  • "What are you doing?"
  • "I'm getting pissed"
  • "You better have an excuse"
  • "You have no idea" (17:22)

• Eventually breaks in after getting no help from building security (who note Sam didn’t look like he’d been at the gym).

• Sam calls his uncle (connected in the legal system), his parents, then 911—an hour after trying to get in.

  “His response to (doing CPR) was, ‘Do I have to?’” – Ash (20:38)

5. Crime Scene Details

(24:19 – 27:06)

• Ellen was found upright, slumped against the kitchen cabinets, with a knife still embedded in her chest.
• She suffered approximately 20 stab wounds: to the chest, abdomen, neck, and especially the back of her head—with two wounds going directly into her brain, and no defensive wounds.
• Multiple bruises on her right side in different stages of healing.
• Hosts are appalled at the lack of logical suicide indicators and the sheer brutality:
  “What? She was stabbed in the back of her neck and head, 20 times overall…that’s interesting.” – Alaina (26:49)

6. Initial Police and Medical Examiner Response

(27:18 – 30:08)

• Police immediately leaned toward suicide, based primarily on:

  • Locked door (swing bar)
  • No signs of forced entry
  • No suicide note
  • Ellen’s history of anxiety

• Autopsy: Originally ruled homicide by the Assistant Medical Examiner:

  • “Multiple stab wounds to the chest, abdomen, back of the neck... A knife with a 12.5 cm blade is present in one chest wound at a depth of 10cm...” – Ash (32:31).
  • Changed to suicide three months later after a controversial review by Dr. Lucy Rorke.

7. Problems with the Suicide Theory

(29:59 – 37:13)

• Female suicides by stabbing are exceedingly rare, especially with this level of violence.
• No attempt to lift clothing to stab (as typically would occur).
• She was mid-preparing a fruit salad, planning for a future, and her psychiatrist believed her not suicidal.
• Autopsy revealed signs inconsistent with suicide—spinal cord pierced (later shown to be severed), angle and force of wounds improbable for self-infliction.
• “To stab someone is to… be able to sever or…puncture the spinal cord, you’re going hard and deep.” – Alaina (37:40)

8. Conflicting Expert Opinions and Mishandled Evidence

(38:13 – 43:05)

• Neuropathologist Dr. Lucy Rorke initially concluded Ellen could possibly have inflicted wounds after a non-severed cord; later, another pathologist found the cord was actually severed.

• Inconsistencies surfaced: one neuropathologist (Rorke) couldn’t even recall conducting the review.

• Crime scene photos later suggested Ellen’s body had been moved (blood flow running horizontally and lack of blood at the scene, a clean towel nearby).

  “There's no way your blood flows horizontally because of gravity...the crime scene was staged.” – Ash (47:28, 48:20)

9. Further Forensic Findings, Law Enforcement Stance, and Family’s Battle

(48:41 – 56:38)

• Blood patterns, lack of luminol testing, and missing camera footage further clouded the case.
• Nationally-renown pathologists and forensic experts, when consulted, consistently found the wound patterns and blood evidence indicated homicide, not suicide.
• Law enforcement and the Attorney General’s office continue to stand by the suicide ruling. Family advocates’ requests to reopen the investigation or at least change the cause to “undetermined” have been denied.

10. Recent Developments and Justice Efforts

(57:38 – End)

• [Photo] photogrammetry evidence newly introduced: wounds’ angles and forces needed are biomechanically incompatible with suicide (58:20).
• Family’s independent computer forensic analysis: no evidence Ellen looked up suicide methods (contradicting police claim).
• Family filed a civil suit to have “suicide” removed as the official cause; current status undetermined.
• Ongoing Change.org petition (over 27,000 signatures); planned court action by attorney Joe Pedraza.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “suicide” ruling:
  • "It does not ever happen that the police publicly speak out about a medical examiner's findings...the assistant medical examiner did a f**king autopsy…that pretty readily looks like a homicide from the outside." – Alaina (33:19)
• On the physical impossibility of the suicide theory:
  • "Any spinal cord injury is going to incapacitate you in some way…it's just wild to me to believe she did this to herself." – Alaina (50:52)
  • "Her lungs were punctured…if you want to pull up the autopsy while I'm talking...it's bananas." – Ash (34:29)
• On the family’s struggle:
  • “All I know is my world went dark and I have no daughter.” – Ellen’s mother, Sandy (24:40)
  • “Her father said, as long as she's in your mind, she's still there. And her mother said...I have to think of her during life and the gift that she was to us.” – Ash (64:32)
• On the need for justice:
  • “Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. That is what I know. That is fact…she was murdered.” – Alaina and Ash (64:14)
  • “This is just, like, another form of just, like, torturing them.” – Ash (65:02)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Personal updates & intro | 02:03 – 07:45 | | Ellen Greenberg’s background | 08:00 – 11:50 | | Mental health & engagement to Sam Goldberg | 11:50 – 14:31 | | Day of death events | 14:31 – 16:55 | | Sam’s actions & 911 call | 16:57 – 21:28 | | Discovery and description of the crime scene | 24:19 – 27:06 | | Police respond & autopsy findings | 27:18 – 33:55 | | Suicide theory debunked | 29:59 – 37:13 | | Forensic experts & mishandling of evidence | 38:13 – 43:05 | | Crime scene staging & blood evidence analysis | 47:00 – 49:00 | | Law enforcement response & family’s advocacy | 54:41 – 57:38 | | New forensic evidence & efforts for justice | 57:38 – 65:02 | | Emotional reflections & episode close | 65:02 – 66:00 |

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Conclusion

Ash and Alaina’s revisit of Ellen Greenberg’s unexplained death exposes a devastating mix of botched investigation, forensic anomalies, and official stonewalling. Their passionate, knowledgeable discussion makes a powerful case for reopening Ellen’s case—urging listeners to support the family's crusade for justice and sign the circulating petitions. This episode is a compelling mix of true crime rigor and heartfelt advocacy.

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Action:

• Sign the Change.org petition for Ellen
• Follow the case through authorized family channels for updates

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"Let the scene speak to you. Let the body speak to you." – Alaina (65:53)

Transcript

[A]

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[C]

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena.

[A]

I'm Ash.

[C]

And this is Morbid Right now.

[A]

Currently.

[C]

Currently. Right. We're here.

[A]

Brought to you kind of live, but not.

[C]

Yeah, not at all.

[A]

No, it's not. Not even a little bit pre recorded.

[C]

This is very pre recorded.

[A]

Psych. It's edited.

[C]

Gotcha.

[A]

But yeah.

[C]

Hey, what's going on everybody's not sick anymore. So. Hello.

[A]

Hey. And guess what? It never happened for me.

[C]

It didn't. It didn't really happen for me either.

[A]

You hear that knock?

[C]

That little knock on the wood? Yeah. No. I got a scratchy throat for a few days and that was it.

[A]

I had like. Like a. My throat never even got, like, scratchy. It was just like, am I gonna get scratchy? Like, you know what I mean?

[C]

It was like mine was hanging on the precipice of being a sore throat, but it never was. So what?

[A]

That would be a great book. The Precipice of a Sore Throat.

[C]

There's a book I want to write.

[A]

There you go.

[C]

Precipice of a Sore Throat. I don't know what it's going to be about.

[A]

A really good short story.

[C]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

At jp, at jp. My brother, my uncle confused people more.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But I think there's.

[C]

I mean, everybody is clearly still very focused on what's going on with the Gabby Petito investigation. Not a ton of, like, concrete stuff has happened.

[A]

Brian Craziness going on.

[C]

Like, Brian Enten, our boy is camped.

[A]

Coming at us a lot. You know who is coming at us live?

[B]

Not.

[A]

Not us. Brian Enten stays live.

[C]

Yeah, he's staying live. In fact, he's going to be going live soon. I think he just announced. But the only thing that we do know is that, you know, some other people have involved themselves in the investigation and law enforcement. There was a lot of people posting. You know, they have apps that. And I think, actually speaking of jp, I think he has an app that shows, like, what kind of aircraft are going over at any given moment.

[A]

Like what. Like. Like flying. What is that fucking called? Like, Delta and like Spirit. What are those called?

[C]

Airlines.

[A]

Yeah, airlines. What fucking airline it is.

[C]

I was like, are we. Are we talking about.

[A]

No, I knew the word. I just couldn't think of it in the moment.

[C]

Yeah, it just. It says whether it's a private airline, whether it's, you know, a private owner of the aircraft, whether it's a law enforcement or Newscraft or a medical, you know, helicopter or whatever, it tells you what the.

[A]

Is up.

[C]

What the. Up in the air. Literally what the.

[A]

Totally up, actually.

[C]

And so a lot of people were seeing a lot of activity over Fort Desoto. I believe it is. I don't live in Florida, so I don't know if that's how you say it. I don't even know if that's a real place. I think it is. Brian and told me.

[A]

Brian Enten says it's a real place. So I.

[C]

It is. Yeah. So I think it's at the very tip of Florida and a lot of people were seeing a ton of activity by a sheriff's helicopter. They seem to be circling last night. So that's a thing that people are posting screenshots they're out for. It's interesting to say the least. There has been a lot of talk about possible activity there. Maybe Brian Laundrie's parents were camping there.

[A]

Maybe with Brian Laundry during this whole time period. Maybe they didn't come out without him. I don't know.

[C]

You know who's there, though? Brian Enten.

[A]

Yes, Brian is there.

[C]

He's going to be going live, so we'll let you know if we find anything else.

[A]

Also, follow Brian Enten.

[C]

Honestly, here we. We are officially Brian Enten's PR people and I would like you to follow him. We are marketing for him, but he's.

[A]

Like, who are these women?

[C]

Yeah. He's like, please stop. But whatever. But that's all we have concrete right now. No one has confirmed to see him. No one has anything else other than that. So everything else is just kind of hearsay. Maybe some of it's true, maybe it's not, but we're not going to share the stuff that's just like, floating around the Internet. But that's all we got. That's real.

[A]

Exactly. The whole shitty. Like the whole. The whole. The whole shitty thing about this is that he's a survivalist. So he could be anywhere in like any kind of woods or.

[C]

Oh, it's totally feasible.

[A]

Like he could be. And he had. Like I said, this is a camp start. It's like he could be anywhere.

[C]

And where this Fort Dodo place is.

[A]

It'S a campground, so hopefully.

[C]

So he has also been there with his parents before, according to some sources. So it's very feasible that he could absolutely be out there. And I think there's like islands around that area.

[A]

Yeah, there is. I saw like the overhead footage and there is.

[C]

It's interesting. It's interesting to say the least. So, I mean, let's all cross our fingers, let's all stay updated. This douche canoe a la true crime garage that that insult came from. So thank you for that.

[A]

My dad.

[C]

Canoe.

[A]

My dad says, douche canoe and he says, ass hat.

[C]

Hello. I love assholes. That's a good one. Yeah, that's a good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

All of the above is what he is, really. Let's hope they find a man. I just want them To. I want to see him in cuffs. Footage of him getting carried away, getting.

[A]

Like, law enforcement, hello, arrested.

[C]

And then I want to see his parents as well. So, yeah, so that's where we are. So we obviously are invested in this case. It's just one that really struck us. We feel like, you know, Gabby is one of our own, so we just, you know, we want to see justice for her and her family. But, yeah, and I think the. The Gabby Petito foundation, the link is still active, so if you can and are able to donate to that, but we'll update you whenever we know more.

[A]

Yeah. And in the meantime, I have a wild case for you that was. So I started doing this, and then I was like, I wonder if anybody suggested this. And I popped in her email, and it was, like, super highly requested.

[C]

Really? Yeah. I'm excited to hear this.

[A]

So this is the case of Ellen Greenberg.

[C]

It sounds familiar.

[A]

I think once I start kind of getting into it, because I think you'll recognize it, maybe. Because I kind of started to recognize it and I could never pinpoint if I had, like, seen anything about it.

[C]

Before, but if it was just, like, in passing.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So let's get into it. Ellen Greenberg was her parents, Sandy and Joshua Greenberg's only child. And Sandy and Josh. Joshua Greenberg. Like, I would love for them to be my parents because they just seem like the most wholesome people. They clearly love their daughter with, like, every fiber of their being.

[C]

They're just rip my heart out.

[A]

They're just the best people. Oh, now, because the fact, like, that she was their only child, they were a super close family. Her mother said that Ellen was a warm, joyful girl who loved to cook, loved fashion. Her father said that she was a daddy's girl and she would go out to different sporting events with him. And her friend said that she lit up a room. She had an infectious smile. And she was that girl that you could call if you needed someone. Oh, I know. So she was. I'm already like, man, she was clearly, like, an amazing person. And specifically the part about the infectious smile. When we post the photo of Ellen on our Instagram, she has the most beautiful smile.

[C]

I'm going to look it up right now.

[A]

Beautiful teeth, just, like, warm eyes. Just like I would if I saw her, I'd be like, I want to be her friend.

[C]

Like, her smile reaches her eyes.

[A]

It does.

[C]

Because, you know, sometimes you're like, smiles and smiles. It just reaches the eyes. You know, it's genuine when it's in the eyes as well.

[A]

Exactly. Ellen went to Penn State and she graduated with a degree in communications. And at that time, she thought that she wanted to be a speech pathologist, but which is, like a, like, really cool job and takes a lot to get, like, into doing that. But then she ended up deciding that she actually didn't really want to do that, and what she really wanted to do was become a teacher.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

No one was surprised by that at all, because Ellen had always loved kids. She was super good around kids. Like, everyone was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, my God, her smile, by the.

[A]

Way, she's a gorgeous smile.

[C]

It literally just, like, blinded me. I was like, oh, my God.

[A]

Yeah, she's beautiful. So genuine and just seems like, like you would want to be her friend.

[C]

Yeah. You're just like, let's hang.

[A]

Like, you want to. You want to get, like, dinner. Like, let's just be friends. Let's watch something, go to TGI Fridays and, like, talk about life.

[C]

Ugh.

[A]

You know? But to make her dream a reality of becoming a teacher, she went back to school at Temple University and she got her teaching degree. When she was finished with that, she started working as a first grade teacher. And everyone said, like, that job was made for her.

[C]

And again, I say special kind of person that can be a teacher. All you teachers out there, high fives.

[A]

High five to all of you.

[C]

High tens. Hi, everything.

[A]

Because damn, Seriously, like, kids are a lot. And especially younger kids that age is.

[C]

Is tough.

[A]

That it's a super tough, like, trust.

[C]

Even just doing homework with my kindergartners. I'm like, oh, your teachers are special.

[A]

I can attest to people because sometimes I help, and then sometimes I gotta ch out.

[C]

Tough, tough times. So teachers a. So Ellen A. Yeah, seriously.

[A]

Ellen also had a boyfriend named Sam Goldberg. They had met through a mutual friend in 2008, and that friend thought they would be great for each other. So she was like, you got to go on a blind date. They did. They super duper hit it off. Like, definitely had a great time and continued dating for about three years. About three years into the relationship, they did, like, a couple's trip to California, just the two of them, and Sam ended up popping the question on a beach, and Ellen said yes. There's like this really, like, like, super cute picture of her on the beach, like, flashing her ring probably right after it happened, like, all very wholesome.

[C]

Yeah. I was gonna say this is really just setting me up to be like, man. Yeah.

[A]

Now they set the date and plan to marry in August of 2011. So with all the wedding planning and the stressful job of being a teacher, especially, like we were just saying to younger kids, Ellen was talking to some of the people she was closest to specifically about her anxiety. She was telling her friends and family that she was just feeling overwhelmed, especially at school, and she was having, like, some trouble sleeping. No one was, like, overly concerned about her mental health in the regard that they thought she was going to harm herself. But people were concerned enough to encourage her to reach out for some help. So Ellen agreed. She was like, yeah, I think that's a good idea. And she started seeing a psychiatrist. She only went to see that psychiatrist, who was named Ellen Berman about three times. And she was prescribed Klonopin and Ambien. She had previously been prescribed Zoloft. That didn't end up working out. And then she switched to these two, and those were the only medicines that she was on.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Now, both of those drugs do have side effects, including suicidal thoughts. But Dr. Berman had made a note in Ellen's file that she didn't find her to be suicidal. Like, literally right in the, in the file there said, not suicidal.

[C]

Yeah. And I would assume that before prescribing things that could possibly, like, dredge up those thoughts that you, you know, you're evaluated.

[A]

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And there was like a couple, like, different notes in her file, and she clearly had been evaluated. And everyone agreed that Ellen was stressed, but they kind of all, they all said, like, in a way it was good stress. Like, it was about her job and it was about her wedding. It wasn't about anything like, like earth shattering.

[C]

Yeah, well, it's like stress for, like, things that are moving you forward, like.

[A]

Day to day things. Exactly. Now, one thing that Ellen's father did notice and find concerning was that all of a sudden she was having a hard time making decisions. And a lot of times she would, like, go to her fiance, Sam, or say, oh, I'll have to check in with Sam and see what Sam thinks. Like, I don't know, let me talk to Sam. And he was just like, that wasn't really like her. And then when she started getting this kind of anxiety coming on, that became more prominent.

[C]

She was kind of defaulting.

[A]

Defaulting definitely to Sam. Now, interestingly enough, when Ellen was really going through it with her anxiety, I believe it was before she had gone to her psychiatrist. She actually reached out to her parents about moving back home. She was living with Sam in Philadelphia, and her parents lived about two hours away in Harrisburg. And they were pretty shocked by this, they were, like, a little bit concerned because they thought her relationship seemed to be, like, a loving, caring one. And they said of Sam that he was a fine young man. And she was like, no, it doesn't have anything to do with Sam. I'm just overwhelmed. And, like, I think I need to get away.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

And, you know, going back home is like a good.

[C]

Yeah, it's like a reset button.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Most of the time.

[A]

Exactly. So that was kind of when they pushed her. And especially her dad was like, you should go see a psychiatrist. Like, you need to get some help.

[C]

Yeah. Just to kind of, like, bring everything into perspective.

[A]

Yeah. And she had been texting, like, friends, and she had texted her mom after she went on Klonopin and Ambien and said that the Klonopin and the Ambien itself were helping, like, she was feeling better. So on January 26, 2011, it was already a snowy day and a blizzard was right around the corner. That morning, Ellen went to work at school. But that day, the school was having an early release because of all the snow. So she finished up at school, and she was heading back to the apartment. She filled up her gas tank on the way home, which you should always do during a snowstorm, my friends. You gotta have that gas or your gas line's gonna freeze.

[C]

Just ask my dad.

[A]

I literally wrote, just ask Papa.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

But so she did that, and then it seemed like she went back home and got into some wedding planning. Not too long before this day, she had sent out the Save the dates for her and Sam's wedding. But there was still a lot of work to do. I haven't gotten married. I don't know all that goes into it, but I'm sure you can attest to the endless amount of work.

[C]

A lot of work.

[A]

I remember watching you do all the work, and I was like, ooh, you need help. And you were like, no, I have it.

[C]

And I was like, no. Control freak.

[A]

No, I'm a Capricorn. I don't need help.

[C]

I don't need any help with anything. But Ellen still that way.

[A]

Ellen, yeah, Right. Ellen was doing the work and figuring out the wedding. And during this time, she was, like, texting with her friends. She had talked to her mom on the phone. Sounded like a pretty typical, like, snowy afternoon. Nothing out of the ordinary.

[C]

Sounds great, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah. It really.

[C]

Sitting there doing some wedding stuff, talking to friends and family.

[A]

Yeah. And at some point, Sam had come home and headed out to the gym, which was, like, in Their apartment complex in the property. Unfortunately, later that day, 27 year old Ellen Greenberg was found dead on her kitchen floor. Her fiance Sam was the one who discovered her body when he was finally able to gain entry to the apartment. So like I said, earlier that evening, Sam had gone to the gym, but when he came back home, the apartment door was locked. Now, he had a lock for like the lock on the doorknob, but the apartment had the extra security feature that like a lot of hotels have, that kind of like Swing bar, I think it's called. It was on the top of the door. It's like got that little ball that stops the door from opening. So that bar was locked and Sam couldn't get in because there's no way to unlock that from the outside. Or is there? Anyways. Oh, he texted Ellen and he started like yelling into the apartment for her, which neighbors did confirm hearing. But he wasn't getting any answer. And he was starting to get like more and more irritated. So he first texted her and said hello. And then he texted, open the door. Then what are you doing? Then I'm getting pissed. Then hello. Then you better have an excuse. Then what the fuck then? Ah, then you have no idea. So the last one.

[C]

You have no idea, Right?

[A]

So the last one to me was super weird because you can look at that in like a couple ways, I think the first being like, you have no idea what's gonna happen when I come through this door because I'm super pissed off right now.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or maybe like, you have no idea.

[C]

How pissed off I am.

[A]

You have no idea how pissed off I am. Or like, you have no idea that I'm even locked out. Like, oh, fuck. You have no ide idea.

[C]

Like, oh, that would. See that one rings pretty, pretty. After all of that, like going over and over, like, what the. Come on.

[A]

And then kind of realizing and then.

[C]

Being like, you have no idea.

[A]

Yeah, like, maybe she was like taking a nap or like in the shower. Because I can definitely tell you, like, I've gotten locked out of my apartment before. Like, haven't brought my fob down and like been texting Drew and he hasn't seen it and vice versa. And we've been like, you don't even know that I'm down here. Like, please look at your phone.

[C]

Please look at your phone.

[A]

So you could look at that either way, 100%. Now, after texting her a bunch and yelling into the apartment, Sam went to find a security guard, thinking that maybe they could help him get in the apartment. Like, Maybe they had some kind of tool to open that lock. Yeah, but he was told, like, they didn't have any kind of tool like that and they couldn't do that. Now, the security guard later said that for someone who had been at the gym, he didn't look like it. He was not in gym attire and he was wearing boots. But on the same hand, maybe he changed before going back to the house. And it was snowing.

[C]

So he's going to say it's snowing.

[A]

Right. So that's not like, super weird. But they did want to point it out. Okay. And he. And the other thing was he didn't have far to go, though. Like, on the other hand, so, like, why would he change if he was just going home? But it's snowing, so you can really.

[C]

See both sides of that.

[A]

You can. But the guard also mentioned that Sam made it a point multiple times to say that he had been at the gym. So could be weird. Maybe he was just panicked because he couldn't get in his house.

[C]

Yeah. This is like, truly one of those things where you're like, I can 100 argue both sides of this.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I've been doing a lot of those cases.

[C]

You have. You're stressing me out.

[A]

I'm really just advocating. Yeah, maybe I'm doing it on purpose.

[C]

I feel like you are.

[A]

I'm not. But finally, Sam made his way back to the apartment without the security guard. He later told police that he had the guard with him at the point because, according to him, he was able to break the lock with force. The security guard later told the police that he never left his post.

[C]

Huh.

[A]

So that was like, weird.

[C]

That one's a weird one.

[A]

That one's weird. I don't really see both sides of that.

[C]

Don't know how to argue another side of that.

[A]

Nor do I, but maybe you do. Listener. So he was able to finally get in the apartment. And once he got in, that's obviously when he saw Ellen. She was sitting in an upright position, slouched over in front of the lower kitchen cabinets. Sam's initial response was not to call 911. He actually made two phone calls. First one was allegedly to his uncle, who happened to be pretty well connected in the judicial system. And like, you know. And then the other was his parents. So they were already on the way there when Sam called the police at 6:33pm it had been an hour since he started trying to get into the apartment. So the 911 operator told Sam that he should perform CPR until the EMTs and the ambulance got there and that they would walk him through it over the phone.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

His response to that was, do I have to?

[C]

Can't. Okay.

[A]

Like I guess you would. I mean, she's probably like covered in blood at this point. He's probably freaked out and is assuming in his head that she's dead. But I don't know. It's a weird thing to say.

[C]

I'm just going strictly off of me.

[A]

And what you would do if you saw John in that position.

[C]

If that was John, I would be doing everything I could to revive him. And I would. It would not deter me whatsoever.

[A]

No. And that's me.

[C]

Right. And again, I'm gonna say everybody listening or everybody around the world would do the same thing.

[A]

And we've never been in that situation. So sometimes your brain does weird shit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Still strange to me.

[C]

I'm going to say it from my point of view. That's strange.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

But it doesn't necessarily mean anything. I'm just saying it's strange. Right?

[A]

I'm just saying.

[C]

I'm just saying it's strange.

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[A]

Now. It was when he got closer to Ellen's body and he was still on the phone with the the operator, he realized that there was still a knife stabbed into her chest and it had been left there.

[C]

My God.

[A]

Yes. When he told the operator, they told him not to do cpr. Like, like at that point, I think it would have interfered with something.

[C]

Well, you never want to pull the knife out, right?

[A]

So Sam's father was the one to call Ellen's parents and told them that something terrible had happened to Ellie. Which I was like, oh, ruin me. When her mother, Sandy, heard what had happened, she said, all I know is my world went dark and I have no daughter. And then also to add on to that, they were two hours away from Ellen's apartment and they were snowed in because of the blizzard.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

So this is just your worst nightmare as a parent.

[C]

That's horrible.

[A]

Like, snowed in. You can't do anything. And at this point, they don't even know exactly what's happened.

[C]

Oh, that's terrible. So I can, like, feel the helplessness there.

[A]

Oh, yeah. It's horrible. So in total, Ellen had been stabbed approximately 20 times. What? The stab wounds were in her chest, stomach, neck, and head? Oh, yes. And most. So she had been stabbed 10 times between the neck and the head alone. And a lot of them were in the back of her neck and head.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Two of the wounds went directly into her brain. On the right side of the. Of her body, the medical team found 11 bruises in, quote, various stages of resolution, specifically on her abdomen, arm, and leg. They said the bruises could have come from some kind of physical activity. Like a sport, like a contact sport from her maybe bumping into things, or could have come from a closed fist. They said it could have been any of those things, man. Yeah, but the various forms of. Of, like, healing resolution was weird to me. And Ellen didn't play any kind of sport where she was bruised.

[C]

If she played context in the areas.

[A]

Where they were, like, bumping into that many things. I don't know. And just the fact that they were all in different healing stages said a lot to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll leave it at that. They also made note that there were no defensive wounds suffered, and that would later become a huge point in this case. Huh. Ellen was pronounced dead on the scene at 6:40pm oh, man. There was no suicide note left at the scene, but almost immediately, the investigators on scene looked at this death like a suicide.

[C]

I'm sorry, what? She was stabbed in the back of.

[A]

Her neck and head 20 times overall. 10 of those being to her neck and head.

[C]

One that went literally through her skull into her brain.

[A]

Like, literally into her brain.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yep. So it was.

[C]

That's interesting.

[A]

Oh, this is gonna be even. You're gonna be infuriated by the end of this. And actually, a lot of people that wrote in requesting this were like, I need to hear Elena's expertise when we get to the autopsy report, which I found. So we'll talk about it.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

It was even written in the report before any autopsy was completed or a medical examiner even laid a finger on her. That this. They thought this was suicide. No, that's not even.

[C]

No, you let the body speak.

[A]

Right?

[C]

The body speaks for you. That person speaks for that. Like, you don't know.

[A]

You don't just assume because it makes an ass out of you and me.

[C]

And everybody in Philadelphia, especially when it's. There's no Suicide note. There's no clear indication. It's like, no.

[A]

What? Right. So the main reasons that they thought this was a suicide was because the fact that there was no forced entry into the house and the door had been locked on from the inside. Like, remember the hotel bar lock?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Ellen and Sam's apartment was on the sixth floor, so it would have been really hard for someone to gain entry through their back balcony. And just to be sure, they checked the snow for prints, and they didn't find any.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Again, no defensive wounds on the body. So that was another reason they looked at it like this.

[C]

I mean, I have thoughts, but I'm not gonna say.

[A]

They checked the security cameras from the apartment's lobby, and there were no suspicious people in or out of the apartment that didn't live there. Unfortunately, though, there weren't cameras in the hallway leading to Ellen's apartment, so they couldn't look at that. But one of the main things that was even later mentioned on the autopsy was Ellen's history of anxiety.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Anxiety. Not like anything else. The investigators believed that because she was on the medicine. She was at the time of her death. And the. And by the way, those were the only drugs found in her system. Nothing else was found. But they believed that because she was on those two drugs when she died, that those are the two things that could have caused the suicide.

[C]

Literally nothing about this rings as a.

[A]

Suicide to me, literally 20 times. She was stabbed and.

[C]

In the head and neck. The back of the head. In the back of the neck, yeah.

[A]

So Sam's story about being at the gym did line up. They were able to check his key fob records, and they confirmed where and how many times he had used that key fob. And everything was like, he said, okay. He was interviewed by the police.

[C]

He.

[A]

They said that he was cooperative and he was let go. Then later down the line, he didn't really, like, talk about it, and he got an attorney.

[C]

Okay, but which.

[A]

That's your right. And that's a smart thing.

[C]

I was just gonna say. It is very recommended in that. Absolutely. And the fact that he talked first.

[A]

Yeah, he talked first. So Ellen's two medications were then taken in as evidence, which is really bizarre to me. Weird as to me now, on the contrary, looking at suicide among females, stabbing oneself to death is extremely rare, especially amongst females.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

Generally, when women commit suicide, they don't choose a violent way. They'll use drugs or, like, carbon monoxide or something like that.

[C]

It's like, on the. The other side of the coin, Women tend to be poisoners.

[A]

Yes. Like when they're killing. Yep. Now the other thing is, and this is among men and women, when someone does stab themselves, it's more likely that they lift up their clothes. Ellen's stab wounds went through her shirt and I actually didn't know that before.

[C]

I was gonna say. That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. There was also a half made bowl of fruit salad on the counter and it looked like whoever was making it was in the middle of preparing it. The other thing was like just to look on the things that she had to look forward to. Number one, the wedding. Obviously she had just sent out her save the dates.

[C]

Sam just filled her tank of gas.

[A]

Just filled her tank of gas.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

That's actually why I mentioned that. Yeah. Sam's birthday was coming up and she had already made reservations at a restaurant and talked to a friend about what gift she wanted to get him. Her mother, Sandy had been visiting her two weeks before and said everything was status quo other than the fact that Ellen was like feeling stressed about the wedding and her work. And on top of all of that, like I said in the beginning, her psychiatrist had written on her file that they did not believe her to be suicidal. Dr. Berman had asked Ellen about her relationship and any abuse and Ellen said nothing like that was going on. That's like a question they have to ask. Of course. And the doctor even noted that she smiled when she talked about Sam.

[C]

And you know, and it's like. And of course all of this is not to say that somebody can be planning things and be doing things that seem like they are moving forward and planning future events and still have like a moment of.

[A]

Of. Of, you know, I can't go on.

[C]

Yeah, it's. Of course that's not to say I just feel like this, this seems like.

[A]

Well, the manner in which this happened.

[C]

Well, that's. It's. And who she here is lining up.

[A]

No.

[C]

Neatly with suicide. It's nothing.

[A]

And just that snazz decision like.

[C]

Like the middle of making a fruit salad. It's.

[A]

I don't. Right.

[C]

Like what happened.

[A]

It just. It doesn't make any sense to me.

[C]

This is like wild.

[A]

It is. And it only gets more wild. Please. So let's cut into the autopsy. Ma'.

[C]

Am. Yes, please.

[A]

An autopsy was completed the next day on January 27, 2011 by the Assistant medical examiner. They concluded that the manner of death was homicide. They noted.

[C]

Not shocked.

[A]

Yes, they noted. And this is directly from the autopsy. Multiple stab wounds to the chest, abdomen and back of the neck. A knife with a 12.5 centimeter blade is present in one of the chest wounds at a depth of 10 centimeters, which is. Translates into 4 inches.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

There is an incised wound to the right occipital scalp. So there was like a slash to.

[C]

The right occipital slope. Yeah.

[A]

Now, so at that point, the police were to go back to the scene and re. Investigate this as a homicide. Yet two days later, they came back and told reporters that they were still leaning towards suicide. What? It does not ever happen that the police publicly speak out about a medical examiner's findings.

[C]

It like literally, like annoys me. Like I'm annoyed right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Everyone was like those. The medical examiner, the assistant medical examiner did a fucking autopsy.

[A]

Did an entire autopsy like that they clearly are trained to do on something.

[C]

That pretty readily looks like a homicide from the outside.

[A]

The knife was inserted into her chest and obviously was the last blow after all of those stab wounds. And again, it was approximately 20. And that was the final one. Inserted four inches into her chest after stabbing herself that many times.

[C]

It would take.

[A]

And we will get into that.

[C]

And you. And you gotta remember, I think people forget you have a chest plate. You have a chest plate. It's not easy.

[A]

Trust me.

[C]

It's not easy to get through that chest plate with your own force.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And to. In that angle, like I'm making the motion right now, the angle it would take would leave you with very little leverage to get through that chest plate that far in.

[A]

Yup.

[C]

And you immediately puncture your lung, which is gonna. With your ability to do really anything else at that point.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Your strength is going to be depleted completely.

[A]

And her lungs were punctured.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You can, if you want to, you can pull up the autopsy while I'm talking.

[C]

Yeah, I think I'm going to. Because this is like really shocking to me. Like.

[A]

Yeah, really shocking. It's bananas. So the police were still focusing on Ellen's history of anxiety. And they were also able to. To determine that. Only that the only DNA on the knife was Ellen's own DNA.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Which also. But it's her kitchen.

[C]

I was just gonna say that's.

[A]

That's not that weird.

[C]

Yeah. Because if somebody was wearing a glove.

[A]

Correct. Which like many people do when they commit heinous crimes.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Now, eventually, one of the detectives on the case, I believe his name was John McNamey, he came up with the idea to hire a neuropathologist who could test a piece of Ellen's spinal cord to see if it had Been severed or not.

[C]

Huh.

[A]

If it hadn't been, then she still could have inflicted the wounds to the rest of her body for sure. Right. So the help of Dr. Lucy Roch, I believe is how you say it. She was a neuropathologist, a well respected one at that. Her help was enlisted. She came to the conclusion after examining that the spinal cord was not severed, but it was punctured.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So in her opinion, Ellen would have gone numb and been able to inflict the rest of the stab wounds.

[C]

I was going to say because if, like. Because the. That's like. From what I'm seeing in the autopsy report, it's like the. The cervical spinal cord 2 and what was it?

[A]

C3 and C5 or is it C? I think it was C3 and C5.

[C]

I think you're right. C2 and C3.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Those are generally the most severe if you get a spinal cord injury in the cervical vertebrae.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

They're the ones that often results in, like, paraplegia. Right. And any kind of paralysis of anything.

[A]

And that makes sense because they're the closest to your brain.

[C]

They're the closest to your brain, and they can also flank, like, there's the whole, like, C5. Stay alive. Anything below the C5 is going to keep you alive. Anything above it has a tendency to be more severe because it can affect the nerves that, like, flank your lungs and flank your diaphragm and control your breathing. And it can get, like, really hairy from there. So if those were punctured, then there's like a possibility she would be numb and at least feel some kind of paralysis. Because who. I don't know if, like, any nerves were severed near there. I don't think it says.

[A]

It wasn't listed in the autopsy if any nerves were severed.

[C]

It is an interesting note that it's punctured and not severed.

[A]

But it's for. I mean, I don't have the education that you do in this field, but would it be crazy to say that, like, that's. That would be like, very unheard of that she could then stab herself that many times after having her part of her spinal cord be punctured?

[C]

That's the thing. To me, it's like spinal cord injuries in general are just very severe and tough to. To work through right away. And it's like, of course. Is it an impossibility? No, but it's.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is it improbable?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's.

[C]

And also it's. It's gonna cause numbness. It's gonna cause some sensation issues in your arms as well. Like anything below that. So it's like your arms are gonna be affected by it.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And also that's just like really deep. To stab someone is to. To be able to sever or to puncture the spinal cord. You're. You're going hard and deep.

[A]

Right.

[C]

So to your.

[A]

Your back of your neck. Well, that's. Think of that angle yielding a knife and.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Just seems to me. That seems bananas to me.

[C]

It makes absolutely no sense that she did this to herself.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I don't. That. It's just. It's wild to me to believe that she did this to herself. It really is.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

And I think the medical examiners agree, so. Yeah, it seems.

[A]

Well. Well, funny you should say that. They.

[C]

They at least put it as a homicide. So.

[A]

Yes. So they. And that's the thing. Seeing that, like, you would have seen that and been like, oh, fuck homicide, I'm sure.

[C]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[A]

Yeah. Three months after the medical examiner had originally listed Ellen's death as a homicide, they changed that manner of death to suicide.

[C]

Just saw that on there.

[A]

Three months after a note about Lucy. Dr. Lucy Rook's findings was added to the autopsy report. I believe it's on page three or four, if my photographic memory serves me. Well, now Ellen's family does not and really has no reason to believe that she committed suicide. So they made it their fucking mission to find out what happened here. They were able to get the autopsy report. That's why we have access to it. And they were able to get crime scene photos. So they hired former Attorney General Walter Cohen as their lawyer. And they also hired Detective Tom Brennan, who has worked on over 800 homicide cases.

[C]

Yeah, I knew that name. I was gonna say.

[A]

And also worked as chief of the Dauphin county detectives, and they hired both of those people to work on the case. Now, one of the first people they talked to when they decided to take Ellen's case into their own hands was Dr. Cyril H. Wecht.

[C]

Hey, yo.

[A]

One of the most famous pathologists of all time.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

We've mentioned him on the JonBenet Ramsey episodes and the Smiley Face Killer episodes and probably way more than that. And now, in Dr. Wech's opinion, Ellen's death is, quote, strongly suspicious of a homicide.

[C]

Yeah, I'm with Sarah.

[A]

He also said, I don't understand how they wrote this off as a suicide.

[C]

Thank you, Sarah. I'm with you.

[A]

Yeah. He specifically noted the wounds to the back of her neck.

[C]

Yes, that's literally what I'm looking at right now. And I'm like, I don't understand you guys.

[A]

No. Now, that was in 2012. In 2017, the family spoke to the. Spoke with another pathologist, Dr. Wayne K. Ross. And Dr. Ross focused in on the stab wound that penetrated Ellen's brain and said an injury like that would lead Ellen to have severe pain, cranial nerve dysfunction and traumatic brain signs. Yes. As well as numbness, tingling and irregular heartbeat. Exactly. Now, we've talked about how doctors in this field, especially this field, tend to be cautious about going against the findings of a fellow doctor. This statement almost went completely against the one that Dr. Lucy Rourke made. Yeah, yeah. Now, while we. While we're on the topic of spinal cords and Dr. Lucy Roark, it turns out that there was another piece of Ellen's spinal cord that was still at the medical examiner's office, just hanging, just hanging, just hanging. And this was, like, years later that they found it. Former homicide prosecutor Guy d' Andrea had a ton of questions about this case. And while searching for the answers, he was the one to find that remaining piece of spinal cord. I believe this was around six. Six years after Ellen had been killed, let's say.

[C]

And there was no consent for them to keep that piece of spinal cord.

[A]

That I do not know the answer.

[C]

To, because that is something that can happen if consent is given.

[A]

I'm not sure.

[C]

Take a piece of a spinal cord and keep it.

[A]

One of the things that Ellen's parents said was that they didn't really get spoken to a lot by anybody in the process. That's very interesting, but I don't know if they gave consent or not. So I'm not going to speak to that. But I said that like. So, like, I'm not going to. I will not. Like I'm in court or something. Now, Tom Brennan was able to get the other neuropathologist, Dr. Wayne K. Ross, to take a look at that piece of spinal cord. And after the piece was examined, it was determined that it had not only been pierced, but severed. I was wondering that.

[C]

So that would turn out to be true.

[D]

Oh.

[A]

So then the family tried to refute the original neuropathology report made by Dr. Lucy Roque. And at that point, they were told no one would. No one could find it.

[C]

No one could find it.

[A]

No one could find her report. And when they did get into contact with her, they were told she had no bill for that examination. And she also wrote to them, quote, I would conclude that I did not see the specimen in question, although there is a remote possibility that it was shown to me.

[C]

So she's basically like, yeah, I don't know, maybe, perhaps.

[A]

And she also wrote possibly. However, I have no recollection of such a case. You don't remember that case? You.

[C]

You got to do some brain games if you don't remember that case.

[A]

Also, your name is in the autopsy report, so they should probably take that the fuck out if you don't remember doing it.

[C]

You spoke on it like, she basically don't remember it.

[A]

Maybe I did, maybe I didn't. Like, that's essentially what that translates into. Wow. I would conclude that I did not see the specimen in question, although there is a remote possibility that it was shown to me. Okay. Okay. Weird.

[C]

Okay.

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[B]

This show is sponsored by Better Help. I feel like it's that time of year where you kind of start to reconnect with people you haven't seen in a while. I got lunch with a friend the other day who I hadn't seen in quite some time and it was so nice. As the seasons change, shorter days don't have to weigh you down. This season, BetterHelp encourages you to reach out, check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones, and remind them that you're there. Just like it takes a little courage to send that text or grab that coffee with somebody you haven't seen in a while. Reaching out for therapy can also feel difficult, but I fully believe that it's worth it. It can leave people wondering, why didn't I do this sooner? Let me tell you, I remember when I first started therapy like in my adult life, and I said the exact same quote, why did I not do this sooner? I feel so much better. It's like a weight is lifted off your shoulder and both of them, in fact, your shoulders. With over 30,000 therapists, better help is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms. Better Help therapists are fully licensed in the US and Better Help does the initial matching work for you so that you can just focus on your therapy goals.

[A]

This month.

[B]

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[A]

Now another question that not Only guy d' Andrea had, but Tom Brennan as well, was about the blood flow that they saw in the crime scene photos. Ellen was sitting upright against the cabinets in the photo that they both described seeing. And they both described the same line of blood that went from the bottom of her nostril to the back of her ear horizontally. Yeah. D' Andrea points out that that defies gravity.

[C]

Certainly does.

[A]

There's no way that your blood flows horizontally because of gravity. Your blood flows vertically down. Sure does. So had she been in that position when she was bleeding, it would have gone down. Would have gone to her mouth. Right. Now, in addition to that, both he and Tom Brennan were surprised at the lack of blood at the scene. All of the areas where the stab wounds were inflicted, especially the head, are areas that bleed a ton. Like, there's so many, like, arteries. As obviously as, you know, your neck. Your neck, like, what?

[C]

And from what I saw, there was a stab wound to the aortic arch.

[A]

There was, like, that's.

[C]

That's a big blood flow.

[A]

Yep. But they said, no, there wasn't a lot of blood at the seam. And Tom Brennan also noted that there was a towel near Ellen's left hand that literally had no blood on it. None. Not a drop in the photo.

[C]

Hmm.

[A]

Weird. How would that be possible?

[C]

No, it's definitely weird.

[A]

Both of them agree, d' Andrea and Brennan agree that the crime scene was staged. Now, in addition to that, one of the detectives, Scott Eelman, I believe is how you say it, he reviewed the scene later. He said there was a trail of blood that would have been consistent with the body being moved in the photos.

[C]

How is. No, like what?

[A]

I have no idea.

[C]

How is this happening so late that everyone's like, oh, look at all this evidence.

[A]

Because in the beginning, didn't look at. Because they didn't treat it as a crime scene immediately. They walked in there and were like, suicide. That's seriously wild. Nothing was really taken into custody other than her medication, which she had for anxiety purposes.

[C]

I cannot.

[A]

Now, Henry Lee, he actually worked or, excuse me, testified for the defense during the O.J. trial. He looked at the crime scene photos showing where Ellen had been found and said, quote, the number and types of wounds and blood stain patterns observed are consistent with a homicide scene. Yeah, duh. No luminol testing was done to see if there was any blood that could have been cleaned up. So this scene could have been scoured.

[C]

Oh, for sure it could have.

[A]

And I didn't, like, know anything about, like, the time of death or anything. Like that, because she was just pronounced dead on scene. So it's really interesting to me that everyone else who's looking at this that's not on this police force is like, yeah, this is a homicide. But they literally walked into a woman who had been stabbed 20 times and they were like, oh, suicide.

[C]

And it's like, yeah. And I just can't get past the stabbing in the back of the head and the neck.

[A]

It just doesn't, it just doesn't make any sense. And especially like you were saying, the final stab wound to the chest, that the knife was inserted four inches into her chest.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's wild, right?

[C]

That's really wild to me.

[A]

Now, Tom Brennan, and like everybody else in the world probably believes that Ellen Green was murdered in what he calls a blitz attack, meaning that someone came up behind her and incapacitated her almost immediately. Which would make sense when you see that her spinal cord was severed immediately. She would have gotten numb, tingly, and would be consistent with the lack of defense wounds.

[C]

Yep. Because she wouldn't have been able to fight back.

[A]

So they were sitting there, she's got.

[C]

A ton of bruises on one side of her body. Boom, boom.

[A]

They're sitting there saying that she committed suicide because there's no defense wounds. Her spinal cord was severed. That's why there's no defense, because she didn't have any time to fight back.

[C]

And again, any spinal cord injury is going to incapacitate you in some way.

[A]

Almost immediately.

[C]

Paralyzed, but it means you're gonna be like fucked up. Like, it's not gonna be an easy. You can just fight back as hard as possible. Like it's going to mess you up a little bit.

[A]

Exactly. And not only that, she was also punctured in the brain twice.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. And it's like that can cause like, like seizure activity, all of that together.

[A]

Hemorrhaging in the brain.

[C]

Like, oh, this is just like.

[A]

And then the other thing is, remember the half made fruit salad on the counter?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

He was like, yeah. She could have been preparing the food when somebody attacked her from behind. And that's exactly what that scene says to you.

[C]

Yeah, it sure does.

[A]

And the neuropathologist that he worked with, Dr. Ross, also found evidence of scratch marks and fingernail marks near her throat, as well as a hemorrhage near her throat that would have been indicative of manual strangulation.

[C]

This is like very infuriating. Yeah, this is infuriating.

[A]

It's. I felt like I was a crazy person.

[C]

To me, someone got away with murder. Here.

[A]

No, to, like, some. Not even somebody got away with murder, period.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, let's talk about the locked door, because that is interesting. Like, how did somebody get in? In the beginning, I was like, honey, they can. Yeah. So Sam said that he had been able to break into the apartment basically just by using force. Brennan reviewed the photos from the scene and saw that the lock was still intact except for one screw. So basically, he bumped out one screw and was able to get in. He believed that if Sam had really used force to open the door, the entire lock would have come off. Out of the door. Who knows?

[C]

Yeah. I was gonna say, I can't speak to them.

[A]

I have no idea. But one of the reasons why the death is listed as a suicide was the fact that the door was locked from the inside. So they were like, no one could have gotten in and killed Ellen and slipped out back into the hall. Well, both D' Andrea and Brennan pointed out that you can just YouTube how to open that kind of swing back lock from the outside, and there's plenty of ways to do it. I watched three videos on it. In one video, they tied a string to, like, the top and bottom of the lock, and then you can pull the ends outside of the string, and it unlocks the door perfectly. It pulls the string back so that the ball hinge doesn't get in the way, and you can open the door easily.

[C]

Huh.

[A]

There was another way where they used a rubber band and they did, like, a similar kind of thing where they tied it around the top and the bottom, and then they stuck the rest of the rubber band to the wall with duct tape and then pulled the door, and we could do it easily. And then I found another video where they literally just used a do not disturb sign and, like, pressed it up against the wall and, like, kind of closed the door, kept pressing, and eventually they got into the hotel room. So they're like, really not a secure lock. When if you have one of those, like, maybe now think about getting a different one. Because the amount of videos. I only watched three on YouTube and I'll link them. The amount of videos on how to open one of these locks from the outside is terrifying.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's not impossible, but I don't.

[C]

Know if we should link them to give people.

[A]

And that's like, yeah, maybe, maybe. If you want to look at that, like, go ahead, but.

[C]

Go ahead and find it. But like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so if somebody left the apartment, how would they put that lock back on?

[A]

You could still use the string. Mechanism to do the same thing and.

[C]

To lock it back.

[A]

Yeah, to lock it back. But then I guess the question, because.

[C]

That'S my question is like, how do you lock it from the outside?

[A]

But was it a. But the thing was, was it ever locked from the outside? We don't know. Because he broke down the door.

[C]

That's the thing. We're just going off of Sam.

[A]

Yeah. So actually, I don't know. Because realistically, if you did, the string would be left there.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

But was that ever really locked? I don't know.

[C]

That's true.

[A]

Who knows?

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Not me. Now, Ellen's parents filed a request to see if they could get access to her file. That request was denied. What the police commissioner's office did allow them to go in and review the paperwork in her file.

[C]

Their child.

[A]

But the downs. So they were allowed to go in and review the file. But the downside to that was that it had to be just them, and they couldn't make copies of anything or call their lawyers while they were there to help explain anything. Noted. So essentially, it was a huge waste of their time because if they can't.

[C]

Understand something, it's like, well, and like.

[A]

You even reading that autopsy was difficult for me. That's like a different language.

[C]

Of course, it's.

[A]

It's a totally different language.

[C]

So you're just going in there being like, I hope I get this.

[A]

Yeah. So they went in and they were like, yeah, we didn't know what anything meant. Yeah, why would we?

[C]

Of course not.

[A]

Which was incredibly frustrating. They have tried to have Ellen's case reopened, especially after they've gone to these multiple experts and were told, yeah, most of this evidence is indicative of homicide. But their requests have been denied time and time again. The Attorney General released a statement saying that the investigation they had done was a thorough one and to. And to further cement that this was a case of suicide, they referenced Ellen's laptop and said that there were searches for the terms, including suicide methods, painless suicide, and quick suicide methods. Now, they said that the report was made by the regional computer forensics laboratory and given to the police on April 1, 2011. However, and you will see it in the autopsy, the family had been told originally that no such terms were found on Ellen's laptop. And there was note of it, and there was no note of that in the report. And you can see right in front of you, the autopsy says analysis of the. What do you say? The dissent's laptop decedent. The decedent's laptop, provided no additional information.

[C]

Says that right there. And it's like, that would have been in bold letters. It literally says that. Autopsy report. Yeah, that.

[A]

No. So when they were questioned about this, the Attorney General said that his office wasn't the one to find it. So, quote, we cannot say if anyone, police or prosecutor, ever looked at it.

[C]

What's happening?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What's going on?

[A]

On October 15, 2019, Ellen's parents filed a civil lawsuit against the medical examiner, Marlon Osborne, and the Philadelphia Camp County Medical Examiner's office, with the ultimate goal of having suicide removed from their daughter's cause of death, as they should, and replaced with at least undetermined.

[C]

I'm just gonna say, at the very least.

[A]

And they said, like. They said that they were like, if you want to put undetermined, go off, but we do not certainly want our daughters, like, cause of death going down is suicide. When that's not clearly not what happened.

[C]

Yeah, that's just, like, false. Yeah, that's literally made up.

[A]

And they were like, that's. It's just ridiculous.

[C]

That's outrageous. Yeah.

[A]

As far as so concerned, their attorney, Joe Pedraza, stated, quote, under Pennsylvania law, the determination in the manner of death is always open to reconsideration based on new evidence. And in this case, you can see there's considerable new evidence. Yeah, there is, in fact, new evidence as recent as 2021.

[C]

What?

[A]

Now give it to me. Oh, honey, just fucking wait for this. Joe Pedraza says that there's new forensic evidence that proves Ellen could not have stabbed herself 20 times. So they were able to use a process called I might fuck this up. Photo. Photo photogrammetry, I believe is how you say it. It's the art and science of extracting 3D information from photographs. So in this case, they were able to do this with Ellen's wounds and how the knife would have entered each one. What the evidence shows is that it would have been, quote, very improbable for Ellen to wound herself like they say she did from behind, because she wouldn't have been able to use the force necessary.

[C]

That's.

[A]

Which is what you've been saying this whole time.

[C]

Yes. It's the leverage thing and the force that you would need.

[A]

It doesn't make any sense.

[C]

The physics doesn't make. It doesn't make sense here.

[A]

No.

[C]

Like, you need a certain amount of, like, leverage to do that, right? No, it just. And immediately I was like, that doesn't make any sense.

[A]

That slash to her right occipital is like, not common in suicides at all. So that was strange in and of itself. Now, are you ready for the best part?

[C]

I'm actually looking at the photos of that. Like, test that.

[A]

Yeah, it's very interesting, right?

[C]

That slash.

[A]

Yeah. No, no. And the other thing is the angle at which some of those just entered is from an upright angle.

[C]

Yeah, it sure is.

[A]

Her father was like, I don't care if you're triple jointed. You. You wouldn't have done. Like, you can't do that. You can go this. But like, I wish you guys could see us right now. We're like swinging our arms. It's not possible.

[C]

And the more you're. The amount of stab wounds, like, we're gonna have to.

[A]

Like, we can post that photos.

[C]

Because it's true. When you see it in black and white, you're like, what the.

[A]

There's literally no.

[C]

When she did this to herself. Because also, it's like. Like one even would be shocking to do it at that angle. But you're incapacitating yourself after you've done one or two. To be able to do more after that with that force doesn't make any sense.

[A]

It makes no sense whatsoever. And then to finish all of those and then have that one be the last one in her chest. No, it makes no sense.

[C]

No.

[A]

This. This is crazy. So they also had a forensic evaluation done on Ellen's computer themselves. Like the family. They had it done on the hard drive. And they say it proves that Ellen never made searches for anything related to suicide. So those are what. And you can tell they're. When they were like, yeah, I didn't write the report. I didn't see it.

[C]

That's what I love. I love that they're all just passing the buck. Like, even the medical. The assistant medical examiner there, like, Lucy, whatever the hell.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

She. For her to be like, yeah, I just don't remember.

[A]

She was the nerd neuropathologist. She's.

[C]

She's just sitting there being like, I don't know.

[A]

Maybe not.

[C]

Maybe some just figure it out. I don't know. Like, everyone's just passed.

[A]

And then was like, I don't have a bill associated with that. I'm like, yeah, because you probably did someone a favor.

[C]

Well, it's like, what the guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

What's happening?

[A]

The fact that they also did a forensic evaluation on her computer's hard drive and it came back with none of those search terms.

[C]

No.

[A]

Like what?

[C]

No.

[A]

So the evidence was said to have been submitted to the attorney. Attorney general in January of this year, the Attorney General released a statement saying, our hearts go out to the Greenberg family on the anniversary of Ellen's traumatic death. At the urging of the family and following a conflict referral from the Philadelphia District attorney's office in 2018, our office reviewed the case and conducted an extensive investigation that did not uncover evidence to change the medical examiner's finding of suicide. There is no statute of limitation on homicide, however, and if any new evidence is brought forward, we believe it should be reviewed with the proper authorities. At this time, no such information has been shared with our office. That's not true, because they literally got that. No, you got the evidence that Joe Pedraza gave them.

[C]

I'm not into it.

[A]

So the attorney, Joe Pedraza, plans to bring this case to trial at some point this year to prove that the manner of death was a fucking homicide.

[C]

Hell, yes.

[A]

And there is a Change.org petition for Ellen's case to be reopened. And it has more than 27,000 signs, signatures.

[C]

Oh, we gotta share that.

[A]

I was gonna say I will link it in the show notes for anyone interested.

[C]

I am on board.

[A]

Now, some people do believe that Sam Goldberg's family ties may have led to some kind of COVID up. His uncle may have been the person he called to the scene before he called the police. Is a judge and sits as the chair of the Ethics and Professional Responsibility Group. He was also appointed by the governor to the Court of judicial discipline in 2018. I'm not saying that Sam Goldberg was involved in any way, shape or form. I'm simply just reporting what other people believe to be potentially true.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

He does have a criminal record in Arizona. A lot of the violations are just traffic violations and one charge of providing liquor to minors. And he was also evicted by one of his landlords while he was living in Arizona. The landlord tried to bring nine civil judgments against him.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Which is interesting, just worth noting these days. Sam is married with children, and he's living somewhere else. I'm not even gonna say where he lives, because that's not fair.

[C]

Yeah. And that's in. I mean, there's nothing violent in that path.

[A]

There's nothing violent in that. She sat there and told her psychiatrist.

[C]

I was just gonna say the psychiatrist said she seemed genuinely happy talking about him.

[A]

So I think the only reason why people think that is because he has family involved in the judicial system, which.

[C]

Because he was the only other person around.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

And there was no know that we know of. And.

[A]

Well, there's no nobody on the camera or anything. Like that. So I think people. I always think, like, the husband did.

[C]

I was just gonna say I get why people are questioning.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But it. To me, it doesn't.

[A]

It doesn't make sense to me.

[C]

There's just not enough. I can't. I can't sit there and say that. No, I believe that we could even question that.

[A]

But I wonder what she was so stressed about. And the fact that there was bruises of, like, various healing points and, like. Like, was somebody else hurting her?

[C]

Yeah, I just. That I don't know, because then I look on the other side, and I'm like. I am like. I have, like, a history of anemia, and I bruise like a grape.

[A]

But all specifically the right side of her body. And there was 11.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, that's. It's shocking. It definitely is.

[A]

But then you have to look at both sides. Yeah.

[C]

Because there's times, you know, there's been times where we're like, where the. Did this bruise come from?

[A]

Elena had a bruise on my neck the other day when we were recording, and I was like, pause. And she's like, what. I'm like, what the. Is on your neck? And it was a huge bruise. Yeah.

[C]

And I was like, I genuinely don't know where that came from.

[A]

So it does happen.

[C]

So I.

[A]

Because she could have been anemic, but I don't know. I don't.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

I. All I know is that Ellen Greenberg did not kill herself. No, that.

[C]

That is what I know.

[A]

That is fact.

[C]

So as far as I'm concerned, as far as.

[A]

Yeah, somebody did that just to finish this off. And really great timing, because the rain is starting.

[C]

There's a torrential. You can hear that. That.

[A]

But Ellen's family plans to continue their fight for justice, and they hopes that in the hopes that someday they'll learn what really happened to their daughter.

[C]

We're with you, man.

[A]

Seriously. Her father said, as long as she's in your mind, she's still there. And her mother said, when I think of her, I have to think of her during life. And the gift that she was to us.

[C]

Oh, that just hurts my heart. So. Oh, my God. I want to help these people sign.

[A]

That petition because she was not murdered. Excuse me? She. She was. She did not commit suicide. No, she was murdered.

[C]

She was murdered. And that family deserves to have fucking justice. That's wild that they haven't been able to.

[A]

And this is just, like, another form of just, like, torturing them.

[C]

Of course it is. They have. No. Somebody's walking around who did this.

[A]

So I hope we have some kind of update because he, the attorney, did plan to bring it to trial later this year.

[C]

Yeah, we got to have.

[A]

This year's almost over. Let's go.

[C]

Come on, guys. Let's make this happen because this is like infuriating.

[A]

I told you. I got to a house this morning and I was like, you're going to be pissed when I give my case today.

[C]

And I was like, don't tell me anything.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I was like, okay. It's going to be really hard, though. Can we go upstairs and record?

[C]

Oh, my God. I'm. I'm infuriated.

[A]

It's insane. It's insane. And you guys are going to be even more infuriated when you see the picture we were talking about.

[C]

Oh, that. When you see it right in front of you, you're like, no. Like, no.

[A]

Literally.

[C]

I don't know how anybody thinks that's possible.

[A]

No, no, no. Well, we hope you keep listening and.

[C]

We hope you keep it weird.

[A]

But not so weird that you walk into a crime scene. You're like, oh my God, I don't even want to look at any of the evidence that's sitting right here in front of me. Like, even though that's my job is. I think it was suicide. Got to go by.

[C]

Yeah, don't, don't, don't do that. Let the scene speak to you. Let the body speak to you. Keep it that weird. If you are professional, of course.

[A]

Yeah. Bye. Bye.

[C]

Sa.

[E]

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[D]

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