Forensics, Fiction, and the Fine Line Between Them: A Sit Down with Patricia Cornwell

Summary

Morbid Podcast - Episode Summary

Title: Forensics, Fiction, and the Fine Line Between Them: A Sit Down with Patricia Cornwell

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Guest: Patricia Cornwell
Release Date: October 6, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and wide-ranging episode of Morbid, Ash and Alaina sit down with internationally bestselling crime author Patricia Cornwell—the creator of the iconic forensic pathologist Dr. Kay Scarpetta. Together, they explore the intersection of forensic science and crime fiction, what it really takes to depict autopsies and crime scenes accurately, the inspiration behind Patricia's work, and the delicate line between fact and fiction. The episode is packed with insider stories from Cornwell's career, hands-on experiences in the morgue, behind-the-scenes details about the upcoming Scarpetta TV series, and lots of irreverent, honest reflection. True crime, writing, and storytelling—served with a side of gallows humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Patricia Cornwell’s Path to the Morgue and Scarpetta

• Origin Story ([06:45]):
  • Patricia shares that her introduction to crime was as a police beat reporter, not an aspiring crime novelist in the morgue, as popularly thought.
  • Moving to Richmond for her then-husband’s seminary studies, she sought a new path that combined her love of writing and crime—but realized she needed real forensic knowledge.
  • “The one thing I didn’t know about is what happens to the body when they whisk it away from the crime scene…I got an appointment to go to the medical examiner's office. And that’s where I met Dr. Marcella Fierro, one of the first five women forensic pathologists in the country.” (Patricia, 07:15)
• Working in the morgue:
  • Patricia made herself indispensable at the Richmond medical examiner’s office, doing technical writing, computer systems work, observing autopsies, and even practical tasks like pill counting.
  • “If you want to find out things, make yourself useful.” (Patricia, 09:07)
• Struggles to Publication ([10:26]):
  • Her first three novels weren’t published; “Postmortem” was her fourth attempt. She credits these years in the morgue with shaping her authentic storytelling and Scarpetta’s realism.
  • “If I’d gotten my way in my first murder mystery, been published, number one, it would have ruined my career because it was really not good. And two, I would have thought I knew enough and I didn’t need to be at the medical examiner’s office anymore.” (Patricia, 11:09)
• Scarpetta’s POV as Truth-telling ([15:18]):
  • Patricia pivoted to writing from Scarpetta’s point of view after editorial advice, infusing her books with firsthand forensic detail and the emotional complexity of the work.
  • “If I’m going to show you the real thing, then damn it, I’m going to tell you the truth…I’m going to do it through Scarpetta’s point of view because that is the only way really that I can get away with it.” (Patricia, 15:40)

Forensic Realism in Fiction and Pop Culture Myths

• Depicting Autopsies Accurately ([29:00]):
  • Cornwell and Alaina critique common inaccuracies in TV and film—like bedside manner in the morgue, mirrored tables, and handling bodies or evidence without gloves.
  • “When somebody acts like they have a bedside manner in the morgue, it's ridiculous.” (Patricia, 29:18)
• TV and Film Realism Evolving:
  • While TV has to adapt for drama and visuals, Patricia notes today’s screenwriters do much more research.
  • “I know because I’m dealing with screenwriters right now for the Scarpetta show, and they’re much more well versed in all this.” (Patricia, 31:45)

Behind the Scenes: Scarpetta TV Series

• Casting Excitement ([32:28]):
  • The hosts and Patricia express excitement over Bobby Cannavale as Marino in the new series, alongside Nicole Kidman and Jamie Lee Curtis.
  • “You couldn’t ask for a more powerful cast.” (Patricia, 33:02)
• Differences from Books:
  • TV adaptation requires fleshing out off-page moments (Marino at home, Lucy in the cottage) for viewers, while maintaining forensic accuracy and Scarpetta’s essence.

Balancing Research, Authenticity, and the Creepy Factor

• Unusual Research ([35:55]):
  • Patricia’s internet search history for weapons and murder methods is “likely to get me in trouble any day now.”
  • The latest book, 'Sharp Force', delves into hologram technology to engineer “ghosts”—demonstrating her focus on plausible, tech-based chills.
  • “I keep waiting for a knock on my door because of the kind of stuff I search on the Internet.” (Patricia, 35:56)
• Committing to the Bit—for Science ([54:17]):
  • On bite mark research: “I practiced the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken...and answered my question and then would very quickly wash my mouth off with the most powerful antiseptic.” (Patricia, 54:16)
  • On blood in cover art: She used her own blood for the hardback jacket of From Potter’s Field.
  • “Hypothetically, my DNA is on the cover of that book.” (Patricia, 56:08)
• Grounding and Humanity in Forensics ([22:03, 65:39]):
  • Stories of autopsy details that haunt practitioners—nail polish, hair braids, fortunes in wallets—imbue dignity and humanity on the deceased.
  • Empathy is crucial: “You have to have the ability to have some empathy. And you imagine that person on the table is if it were your mother, somebody you deeply care about. If it’s you.” (Patricia, 22:56)

Debating Fact vs. Fiction Boundaries in Writing

• Evolving Scarpetta for Modern Technology ([39:39]):
  • Challenges of contemporary forensic technology—DNA, cell signals, ubiquity of cameras—force writers to stay current and creative, or else “the book would be one page long.”
• Leaning Into Drama ([61:11]):
  • Cornwell encourages writers to dramatize, allow forensic pathologists greater agency and action than in real life for richer storytelling.
  • “I have really ramped up the drama. I mean, I have Scarpetta doing all kinds of things that she, you know, maybe she wouldn’t really do, but it doesn’t matter, does it?” (Patricia, 61:36)
• Maintaining Forensic Accuracy AND Pace ([47:36]):
  • Cornwell attributes her fidelity to forensics to foundational, in-person experience and ongoing research. She cautions writers to “keep up” or risk falling behind as science advances.
  • “You build on what you learn. If you stop learning, then one day the gap is too big and you can’t catch up.” (Patricia, 50:16)

Writing, Inspiration, and Storytelling Wisdom

• Letting Characters Lead the Way ([57:51]):
  • Cornwell sees her plotting as a “collaboration” with her characters—sometimes she follows, sometimes she leads.
  • “Sometimes she has ideas of her own.” (Patricia, 58:29)
• Advice to Other (Women) Writers ([59:24]):
  • Patricia expresses immense pride at inspiring women thriller writers, encouraging them to break boundaries and infuse their forensic protagonists with agency and purpose.
• Staying Human Amidst Morbidity ([72:09]):
  • Cornwell underscores the ethical mandate to “listen” to the dead and not objectify them.
  • “We owe them that. As painful as that is, we owe them our most sincere and devoted attention at that last moment.” (Patricia, 72:09)
• Creative Process Reading Recommendation ([72:30]):
  • Patricia recommends Rick Rubin’s The Creative Act: A Way of Being for anyone seeking creative inspiration and the value of “letting go.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I’m going to show you the real thing, then damn it, I’m going to tell you the truth…I'm going to do it through Scarpetta's point of view.” (Patricia, 15:40)

• On empathy in forensic work:

  • “You have to have the ability to have some empathy and...imagine that person on the table is if it were your mother, somebody you deeply care about. If it’s you.” (Patricia, 22:56)

• On TV autopsy gaffes:

  • “When somebody acts like they have a bedside manner in the morgue, it’s ridiculous. I mean, we’re respectful…but you’re not saying, 'oh, this won’t hurt very much.'” (Patricia, 29:18)

• On research extremes:

  • “I practiced the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken…” (Patricia, 54:17)
  • “Hypothetically, my DNA is on the cover of that book.” (re: From Potter’s Field) (Patricia, 56:08)

• Advice for writers:

  • “If you stop learning, then one day the gap is too big and you can’t catch up. So…keep up with it, because you'll understand all the changes. But you gotta know the fundamentals first.” (Patricia, 50:16)
  • “Pull out all the stops, baby.” (encouraging drama and proactivity in forensic protagonists) (Patricia, 62:47)

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Important Timestamps

• Patricia’s career origins & first morgue experience: 06:45–09:07
• Publishing struggles & Scarpetta’s creation: 10:26–15:56
• Ethics, humanity, & empathy in autopsy work: 20:31–24:28
• Pop culture forensics accuracy & TV series insight: 29:00–34:20
• Weirdest research and dedication to realism: 35:55–56:08
• Writing craft, plotting, and letting go: 57:51–75:47
• Human details and true stories from the morgue: 65:39–72:09
• Book and creative recommendations: 72:30–75:47

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, informed:
  • The hosts and guest are open, sometimes profane, and often joke about the morbidity of their interests.
• Empathetic and humanizing:
  • Repeated focus on respecting the dead and acknowledging their humanity, even within the sometimes gory or “nerdy” details.
• Encouraging and inspirational:
  • Cornwell gives advice to both readers and writers—especially women—on persistence, staying curious, and letting fiction take creative risks without sacrificing forensic accuracy.

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Summary Conclusion

Whether you’re drawn to the science of death, the art of crime writing, or just love an unvarnished peek behind the curtain, this episode delivers. Patricia Cornwell shares the truth behind Kay Scarpetta's realism, the sobering reality of the morgue, and the freedom—and responsibility—embraced when fiction blurs with fact. Above all, listeners are left with the importance of doing the work, respecting the story’s human core, and not being afraid to “pull out all the stops, baby” in creating characters and worlds that intrigue, disturb, and endure.

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Want More?

• Check out Patricia Cornwell’s Sharp Force (launching October 7, 2025).
• Watch for the new Scarpetta TV series in spring 2026.
• For aspiring writers and true crime fans, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin comes highly recommended!

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Ash]

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[Elena]

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[Ash]

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[Elena]

We got so excited during this interview that we forgot to ask our guests to do the and I am because it was Patricia Cornwell. What the I am so this interview was wild. It was so cool. I was floating above us all during this.

[Ash]

I wish that you guys we do have sub video for us so I think we'll be able to Post some stuff.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Elena was literally like.

[Elena]

I was beaming, floating. Yeah, I was be.

[Ash]

Elena has always been a huge fan of Patricia Cornwell. So just, it was really cool. I just wanted to like sit back and watch it. For the most part. I was like, there. I had a couple questions in there that I ended up deleting on our shared doc and just like highlighted and was like, go to this one.

[Elena]

Like, just keep going. Like, you got this. It's true. I. I have been a. I've been a fan of Patricia Cornwell. I mean, in case you don't know Patricia Cornwell, like, you gotta get on it because she's amazing. Yeah. Honey, what are you doing? She's sold over 120 million books, which is damn insane. She's an author of nearly 50 books. Like, and a lot of people know her for the Scarpetta series. There's like almost 30 books in that one. Wow. It's an amazing series. It follows a medical examiner, Kay Scarpetta, who's just. She was my hero growing up. Like, I wanted to be Kay Scarpetta.

[Ash]

Kind of are.

[Elena]

Honestly. That was the dream. I love her. It's. She does like thriller, but it's like really like science based. And it's. It's got like a little. Some of her books have some horror elements in there. Like, she's really good at balancing it all. She. Even in one of them, she goes to the actual Body Farm in the book. Like, and she went to the Body Farm.

[Ash]

It's so funny.

[Elena]

It's called the Body Farm, by the way.

[Ash]

I remember you telling me about that.

[Elena]

Yeah. And I was like. Because I was fascinated by the Body Farm. So when that came out, I was like, let's go, girls. But she's amazing. I have been reading her books since I was like 13 or 14. I mean, I started. I think her first book maybe came out in like 1990, I think, which I was before my time. I didn't read it at that point because I was five, but I was reading it ten years later for sure. Like eight years later. And I've read every single one of them. I think up to like the last. I think I've missed the last three. I have to catch up on them. Yeah. But John buys me anytime a new book comes out by Patricia Cornwall. He knows he's going to run out and grab it and get it for me. I have, I have a whole. I mean, I have almost an entire bookshelf dedicated purely to Patricia Cornwall.

[Ash]

I can attest to that.

[Elena]

She's my girl.

[Ash]

I remember when I was doing. I did a paper on Jack the Ripper in like, yeah, Freshman year, and you gave me Portrait of a Killer Tomorrow. And that's a great book.

[Elena]

Yes. It's so good because when she gets into something, she fucking gets into it.

[Ash]

Super informal.

[Elena]

And I always loved that about her too. I always felt like super kindred that way because she seems like someone who just wants there. And she is. She confirmed that for us in the interview. She is that person that just when she gets hyper focused on something, she's just gonna go learns everything about it down the hole. And she was so much fun.

[Ash]

You guys are for sure kindred. There was a connection there.

[Elena]

I love.

[Ash]

I said, I love watching this.

[Elena]

I love it. It was great. We became best friends during this interview. We're besties for life, me and Patricia. Yeah.

[Ash]

In about five seconds, you'll hear us both get invited to our home.

[Elena]

Hell yeah. And I intend to do it. So, Patricia, get ready.

[Ash]

See you there, brother.

[Elena]

This interview was awesome. We hope you guys love it. It was really interesting. She's a fascinating lady and just another fucking amazing author that I got to talk to because of you guys. Hell yeah. So without further ado, enjoy Patricia Cornwell. So, Patricia, thank you so much for coming on Morbid. This is massive for me. I'm freaking out inside. So, Patricia, you worked for the office of the chief medical examiner for six years in Richmond. In your early career in the medical examiner's office, what shaped the creation of K. Scarpetta during those years?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, let me tell you a little morbid secret. Oh, I love that the people think that I happen to be working in the medical examiner's office, or shall we just say the morgue, and that out of that I got ideas for writing books. That's not at all what happened when I graduated from college back in the Stone Age, and I was an English major, and I knew the only thing I seemed to do halfway decently was writing. So I managed to get a menial job at the newspaper, the Charlotte observer server, and I worked my way up to being a reporter, and they put me on the police beat. And so that was my first introduction to crime. You know, going to homicide scenes and doing this sort of stuff. And then at that time, I was married to my former English professor and he wanted to move to Richmond, Virginia, to go to seminary, and so I had to leave my journalism job. I won't go into all the boring details, but suffice it to say that at one point, I Thought to myself, what am I going to do with my life? And I knew I was interested in crime and I wanted to write books. So I thought I'd put the two together. But the one thing I didn't know about is what happens to the body when they whisk it away from the crime scene. I knew it went to a morgue somewhere. I knew there were forensic pathologists who looked at the body. But back in that, this was back in the 1980s, back in those days, that kind of information wasn't readily available. So in Richmond, I got an appointment to go to the medical examiner's office. And that's where I met Dr. Marcella Fierro, who was one of the first, I think five women forensic pathologists in the country.

[Elena]

You know, that's awesome.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And I mean, how lucky was I? I didn't even know there were women medical examiners. And this is the one I meet. And she gave me a tour of the autopsy suite, you know, the three stainless steel tables that are attached to the floor and the huge cooler that she opened in the filthy smelling, dead smelling condensation rolls out like a horror movie and you know, whoosh. And you see the body bags in there. And so that was my first taste of all this. And I went back to do more research. And finally I've always, I tell everybody this, if you want to find out things, make yourself useful.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So I said what do to be helpful here? I started doing technical writing and then they became computerized and they, and I ended up taking over their computer system. But I'd go in the morgue every morning and I would watch the autopsies and I would take the notes for the doctors or I'd hang up bloody clothing. I'd put organs and scales and write down the weights and do you know, I was the pill counter, you know, when your prescription drugs came in, I'm the dummy who just gets to 1, 2, 3. I'm afraid he, he might have taken a little bit too much of his fentanyl. I know it's not funny, but that, and so, you know, but it was all to write murder mysteries. That's why I wanted to learn this. It was, and I just was so fascinated. All the forensic labs were upstairs and so I could go up to toxicology or fingerprints or back in the day serology, what's now DNA. And that is why my books have so much of that kind of detail because I had a six year full time education in it and then continue to learn it ever since. So My medical examiner experience is that I really ended up there six years, because every book I wrote, nobody Wanted, I wrote. Post Mortem was the fourth attempt. That's wild.

[Elena]

To me.

[Patricia Cornwell]

By then, I thought it was going to be my postmortem because I was very dejected and unbelievably. You know, at that age, when you're 20s, in your 20s, it's such a hard time because you're trying to figure out who you are.

[Elena]

Tell me about it.

[Patricia Cornwell]

What are you here for? You know, do we have a purpose? And when I kept failing at what I thought was my only purpose, which is to write, it was a very dark time. But I will tell all of those who. Everyone who listens to this, who gets discouraged. The thing about it is, if I'd gotten my way in my first murder mystery, been published, number one, it would have ruined my career because it was really not good. And two, I would have thought I knew enough and I didn't need to be at the medical examiner's office anymore, and I needed to be there a long time to walk around in scarpetta shoes.

[Elena]

All right.

[Ash]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I love that.

[Elena]

That's wild. I still can't believe that you had trouble getting published. At first. It's. I wrote.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It was a book a year. The first year I was there, it was one book called the Stick Doll Murders, and then the second one was Murder in the Lost Hundred. Ooh, that sounds spooky. And then the third one was called the Queen's Pawn, and. No, no, no. And then an editor said to me, I finally called up the same editor who rejected me three times. You're not supposed to do that, by the way. And I said, I know I'm not supposed to call you on the phone. I said, but should I quit? Oh, my God, no, I don't think you should quit. But I said, well, what am I doing wrong? And she said, well, you work in a medical examiner's office, don't you? And I said, yes, I do now. And she said, well, the stuff that you're writing about, is that what you see every day? And I said, I never see any of what I just. What I write about. I mean, because I'm writing about buried treasure and archeology digs that go wrong and, you know, all the. It was sort of like Agatha Christie meets autopsies. And it didn't work. It was a little. It was a hybrid. And she said, and also, your best character is this woman medical examiner named Dr. Scarpetta. She was a minor character in the first three books. And she said, why don't you write it from her point of view, I'd like to know what she thinks. I thought, oh, my God, I don't know if I can do that. And if I show people what I really see and I let that invade my imagination, I don't know if I can survive it, because, you know, I'm going down every morning and seeing horrors on the tables. Someone struck by lightning, someone killed by a wild animal, somebody who's been raped and murdered. I could. I mean, I've seen thousands and thousands of cases over the years. And by that time, there were serial murders that were. Had just started in Richmond.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

This was 1987, the south side strangling cases. And they were going. They began while I was working at the Emmys office. And I'm telling you, all of us were terrified.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That's when I bought my first gun and took shooting lessons. I put a deadbolt on my bedroom door. I was divorced at that time, so I was living alone, and I thought to myself, and I watched Dr. Fierro work in these cases. She'd come home, she'd get called out in the middle of the night. And here's a terrible story. One of the early victims in the south side strangling cases was a woman neurosurgeon who was finishing her residency at the Medical College of Virginia, right down the road from the Emmy's office, this lovely young woman. And here's the weird thing. A year earlier, I'd been over to that medical college with Dr. Fierro. She was doing a lab, what they call a wet lab, where you take, or in this case, brains that have been fixed and formal. And I can tell you guys this. Since you have a show named Morbid, this is your fault or fault that you're getting all this. Okay.

[Elena]

Hey, we'll take it.

[Patricia Cornwell]

We're happy to have it. Yeah. So she's doing a brain cutting around all the neuropathology students and neurosurgeon residents. And there was this one woman in a lab coat on the other side of the room, young woman with long red hair. And I was feeling so ill at ease because I'm this stupid person who was an English major. I'm not a med student. I have three books that nobody's wanted, and I'm still trying. And I was just. I don't know, I was having an uncomfortable moment, and I felt somebody looking at me, and I looked across the room and the red headed woman was staring at me and she smiled just this warm, like, hello, you're fine. Here.

[Elena]

That's all it takes sometimes.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That was the woman who was murdered.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And when that happened a year later, I've never forgotten her looking at me. And I mean, and then I'm looking at her and crime scene photographs when I'm out with.

[Elena]

Oh, that's awful.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yes.

[Elena]

I can't imagine that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so I'm saying to myself, how do I write about something like this without actually adding to the problem or celebrating what we should condemn? And I figured out, you know what, if I'm going to show you the real thing, then damn it, I'm going to tell you the truth. Yeah. I'm going to do it through Scarpetta's point of view because that is the only way really that I can get away with it. Because she's not celebrating it at all. She can't fix it.

[Elena]

She's doing a job. Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Also not going to lie to you and say, oh, it didn't hurt very much.

[Elena]

Nope.

[Patricia Cornwell]

She's going to say, this was awful.

[Elena]

Right. That's what I love about her.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That's my very long story for how that all happened. Now you don't have to read my memoir when it comes. We still will in the spring.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm excited for that. That's awesome. I'll definitely read it anyways, so that's.

[Patricia Cornwell]

When you may have to come visit me in person.

[Elena]

Oh, well, absolutely. We're in. Yeah. Because you're welcome back anytime. I can't wait to hear more about this. And actually, like, I love hearing these stories because I worked as an autopsy technician in Boston. Yeah. For I think five years actually.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, that's really called. In my own, my old biz, that's called Burying the Lee.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Because I didn't know I was talking to a confeder literate here where we can compare notes.

[Elena]

Yeah. As soon as I heard you talking about like the wet, you know, wet specimens and the brain cutting. The brain cutting, I was like, you know what?

[Patricia Cornwell]

You'll never forget that smell of formalin, will you?

[Elena]

No.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And formaldehyde, which I hate even worse. At least the diluted stuff doesn't. But that. Oh, terrible.

[Elena]

Yeah. And you can taste it too.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It's awful.

[Elena]

Like food would taste like it later.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so you understand when I write about that when Scarpetta comes home at the end of a long day at the morgue, that she, when she goes in the shower or she showers in her office, before she goes home and appreciates that. But she washes up inside her nose.

[Elena]

Yeah, you have to.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And gargles. Because the molecules of the nasty stuff are in the air. And when you're smelling it, it's because it's the molecules of lovely things called putrefaction, among other things. And that's what you're smelling. Yes, it's all molecular. And so she scrub a dub. Dubs. Because you feel. I remember when I first started smelling that stuff, I would start imagining I smelled it, like right when I was getting ready to eat something.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Oh, yes.

[Elena]

Yep. Yeah. I was very surprised to. I think, like one of the first autopsies that I was part of, I went to. I went to dinner later that night with my husband. And the first bite I took, I was like, why do I feel like this smells like what I was just in? And he was like, that is horrifying memory.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Because your sense of smell is really your most powerful sense. It blew my mind. My neuroscientist partner, Stacy could tell you all the reasons why that's the case, but that's why smells. Olfactory experience is so powerful. And in fact, you can smell something and it can create that. It triggers a memory that will actually make you feel the way you did when you smelled it before. Like, I went to. And when I was in. I took a tour. I went. I drove across Austria way back in the early 90s. And one of the things I wanted to see when I was there was the Mothausen death camp from the concentration camp. I read a book about it, and I thought, I want Scarpetta. I want her to see this through me. I want to see the reality of one of these horrible places. And when I was walking through one of the barracks where they'd kept these poor. The Jewish prisoners that they were so merciless to. I thought I smelled the inside of a cooler. And you know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Elena]

It's a very distinct.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Smelled death so powerfully that I said to the person I was with, I have to leave. That was all just really a hallucination. Yeah, obviously. But it was remembered odor. And, you know, this may sound gross to people, but you need to understand why all this is important to human biology.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

We are programmed to be repelled by things that we should stay away from.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So, you know, if the whole colony was wiped out by a plague and you smell that in the woods, when you're in the primitive age, you go the other way. You're getting the hell out of that might happen to you.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

It just comes down to survival.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And all of this is all about survival. Our fear, our wanting to read scary stories is all about our survival instinct.

[Elena]

Yep. It gets that fight or flight going.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Since you worked in a morgue, then when in my opening scene in Sharp Force, when Scarpetta's working on a floater in the autopsy suite, some guy, poor guy, that's been in the river for a while, then you know what that's like.

[Elena]

That's a unique experience. For sure. That is a very unique experience. A very unique smell and a very unique way of going about an autopsy. It's totally different, which is crazy. And that'll stay with you, that image, for sure.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, you know, I was coming. This is a. I think, a wonderful way to think of it. One day when I was working at the medical examiner's office and we had such a case. A man who had been out fishing with his. His young boy in the James river in Richmond. And this was a hot summer day, and he. And we don't know why. Well, nobody knew why, but he ended up going overboard and his body wasn't found for a while. So when it came to the. Our office, it was very, you know, very, very decomposed. And. And it was really, really awful. I mean, it would really kind of would go through the whole building, to be honest with you. And so I was in staff meeting, and I was getting ready to go downstairs with Dr. Fiero to scribe while she did her cases. And she was going to do that one, because she didn't. Nothing faced her. We're riding the elevator down, and I said, you know, sometimes I really don't know how you stand this. I don't know how you do it. And she looked at me and she said, I just try to imagine him before he got here. And so suddenly I saw this man on a beautiful summer day with his boy fishing, you know, with his baseball cap and the white sparkling on the water, and everything's happy. And he. That's what I tried to think when I was actually looking at what she was doing after that. And. And I thought that that is how we should do it, because we don't want to objectify human beings. I mean, what we leave behind is not pretty, but we. But if we were around to see it, we would be embarrassed.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

We'd say we'd apologize. Sorry I'm such a mess.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's so true. And it makes you feel like you have a purpose when you think of them. That way before they got on the table. There's a purpose to the whole thing instead of just meaningless, you know, clinical way of looking at it. Like when I. One of the things I always say when I worked at the morgue was it always like little things would get me during an autopsy. Like somebody having nail polish on. I was like, you didn't know that that was the nail polish you would be wearing forever? Like that that was the last time you were going to put on nail polish or if they had their hair in a braid or something. I was always like, wow, you just didn't know that that was your last hairstyle. Right. Like it's. And I never wanted to cut those hairstyles. I was always careful to not cut the braid off if I was doing a neuro case. And you have to make it personal. You can't look at it just deadpan. Because if it gets.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You have to have the ability to have some empathy. And you imagine that person on the table is if it were your mother, somebody you deeply care about. If it's you.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And. And I. And I do it one. I'm so lucky that I was around the right kind of people when I was learning all this. But most of all, Dr. Fierro and that she used to. There was one thing she would never tolerate in her autopsy suite. You so much. You show even one iota of disrespect towards those cases in there and your ass is thrown out. She say, out, as you should be.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because it keeps you. It keeps you on task to sit there. You have to keep reminding yourself, like, this is somebody. Somebody. So I have to be as well.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, the interesting thing, in some cultures there is a belief that when you die, your consciousness, your spirit, whatever you want to call it, hovers around the body for a while. So in particular, in primitive cultures, they would not do anything to anybody. They leave them for a while. Even in Italy, you. I think it's. You've got to wait about 24 hours before you do an autopsy.

[Elena]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And the. And it's because of this. Of not being sure when that transition is being made and trying to be as respectful as you can.

[Elena]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so I always just think, don't ever talk around a dead person. Don't say anything in front of them. You wouldn't say if they were still alive. And.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And then you're safe.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly. It's so true.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Maybe their ghost won't bother you as much as it's when you won't creak in the walls and you won't hear someone walking on your floorboard late at night.

[Elena]

Yeah, you won't feel like they follow you home.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

Well and with all your experience, I know that sometimes I find myself nitpicking in like pop culture like books, movies, TV about crime scenes or autopsies if they get it wrong. Are there things that drive you crazy that happen a lot in like pop culture for autopsies and crime scenes?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, I think one thing is when when somebody acts like they have a bedside manner in the morgue, it's ridiculous. I mean we're respectful, you know that but you're not saying, oh, now this won't hurt very much. And of course, the other thing is, now I understand why TV has to do this. I mean, because they're visual. But, like, if you. You've seen the shows like CSI where they have mirrors on the table so you can see the dead person's face.

[Elena]

Yeah. Never.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Of course, that isn't done, but I understand. I. My attitude is they're translating and making a story that works for their medium.

[Elena]

And have to make it palatable.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And a lot of what they do, they don't have a whole lot of choice because of what they're doing. But there are. I can't think of anything right off the bat, but there are so many times where I've seen things where I go, you know, you didn't even try to get that right.

[Elena]

That's me, too. Those are the ones that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

There's no way somebody would just say that or that they would do what you just did. Or. I know when they touch things with no gloves on, that makes me crazy. And, you know, it's. Or no masks. And why? Because I get it. You don't want the actress covering her face all the time. But to be honest with you, the way people are bundled up in Tyvek these days, they really do look like a house under construction all wrapped up.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so that's not a good look if you're a movie star.

[Elena]

No. Yeah.

[Ash]

It doesn't quite translate.

[Elena]

The gloves thing always drives me nuts, though, because I was always like, no, you wear, like, at least, like, three or four pairs of gloves, so you can keep ripping them off the whole time.

[Ash]

It's so funny.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, I remember one of the early scripts for the Scarpetta movie that never got made. And by the way, we do have a show that will be out in the spring. But I remember that the writer had Scarpetta stopping in the middle of a terrible part of town for a crime scene. On her way home from something else, she goes in, she whips out her. Her makeup bag, zips it open, gets a pair of tweezers out, and then goes and collects a piece of evidence with it. And I said, what is it about?

[Elena]

You're like, I'm sorry, I don't understand. Where did that come from?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, she also was driving a red Tesla electric car. And I thought way back in the day, when I thought, she not gonna take any chance. So that electric car battery gonna go dead where she's parked right now?

[Elena]

Absolutely not. I would never push the electric Car card.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You don't see as much of that anymore, though. People really, truly. I know because I'm dealing with screenwriters right now for the Scarpetta show, and they're much more well versed in all this. The writers are. Than they used to be. And there's also so much more available, even Google.

[Elena]

Yeah, so true.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And, you know, there's so much more that you can find out for yourself now.

[Elena]

Oh, definitely. And speaking of the Scarpetta television series, because I've been waiting for so long, like, I started reading your books. I'm 39. I started reading your books when I think I was like, 13 or 14, because I was super into it. I read postmortem first. I went all the way through. My husband will buy me each new book whenever it comes out. It's like the present he gets me.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That's very nice. Will you tell him I thank you for that? I will.

[Elena]

He'll love that. But I've been waiting for this. I've been really excited to see it on any screen, really. And one thing that made me so excited was hearing that Bobby Cannavale is playing Marino. I feel like that is the most.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Perfect casting choice I've told everybody. I said, and you really expect that he and Dr. Scarpetta are not gonna have an affair now that she knows he looks like that? Honestly, she would say to me, well, you didn't tell me he looks like that. The way you describe him in your books, you can see why I didn't have an affair with him. So, anyway, yes, I think. And I can assure you, because I have seen, you know, the eight episodes that you will be seeing next year in the spring. And he's fabulous. Oh, I believe in the scenes with him and Nicole Kidman and Jamie Lee Curtis. I mean, it's all. You couldn't ask for a more powerful cast. They've done a great job. I think people are going to have fun. I mean, don't expect it to be identical to my books. Because it can't possibly be. No, because it's tv. But the other thing is, if you think about my books, for the most part, there are a few that I wrote from what we call the third person point of view, but they're always from Scarpetta's perspective. I mean, almost all of them, especially the ones now. So if you're only seeing what she's seeing, the screenwriters have to create a lot of scenes that aren't in my books. Like what happens when Marino goes home and has had A squabble with Dorothy or what's Lucy doing in the guest cottage? You know, so those things. And that's kind of fun because you're not only getting my story, but you're getting something new.

[Elena]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I hope you and everyone will have lots of fun with it.

[Elena]

Oh, I'm sure I will. Yeah. I'm so excited for it. I'm very excited.

[Ash]

I think we'll have a big watch party.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure. Good.

[Ash]

You mentioned working with screenwriters. Are you able to write on it at all or have you been able to.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I haven't done any writing, but I do review all the scripts and.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, my big thing is the techniques and the science and all that. Making. Sure. Helping with that as best I can. I've, you know, if they. Occasionally they'll ask me to sit in on the writer's room if they have some questions. And also just because I like to encourage them. I love to encourage. A lot of them are very young and that this at least I can do at this stage because I know what it feels like.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I know what it feels like to get started. Of course, they're doing a pretty good job getting started since they're on such a major show, but yeah, it's not exactly small potatoes to start with when you're writing something for. Definitely not three Oscar winning actors, you know, Jamie and Nicole and also Ariana DeBose who plays. Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Oh, awesome. This is stacked.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I just wanted to hurry up and sing.

[Elena]

Right. Like, let's go.

[Ash]

This is an iconic cast.

[Elena]

It really is.

[Ash]

We're so excited. Something else we're obviously so excited for is Sharp Force, which if you're listening to this the day it premieres, it will come out. Sharp Force will come out tomorrow, October 7th. So while writing Sharp Force, what was the most bizarre piece of research that you did where you kind of thought if somebody saw this, I'd be in a lot of trouble?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, that's truth is if, if anybody saw most of what I'm doing, I'd probably be in trouble. I keep waiting for a knock on my door because of the kind of stuff I, I search on the Internet. We can relieve him. How many times can you be asking about this kind of weapon or how long it would take to kill somebody before somebody decides they better check out your Enterprise.

[Elena]

Yeah. What's going on in there?

[Patricia Cornwell]

But. But the hologram part of it, you know, that it was, that was very creepy to research the notion that you can create a hologram. Well, let's just back up and say, what is the genesis of this? Ghosts. You know, we've heard about ghosts all our life, and, you know, people who've seen them, maybe you have or you've had a weird experience that defines, defies any sort of explanation. And so I thought, what tech? I'm always interested in what technology could supply an answer or an explanation for things we see that we don't understand, whether it's Bigfoot, a quote, flying saucer, or in this case, a ghost. And so I thought, is there technology that could create ghosts? And the answer is yes. Holographic technology combined with highly, highly technical drone technology that creates, you know, can be a flying projector, so to speak. And understanding that electromagnetic energy isn't always light waves. It can also be radio waves that can go right through your bedroom wall. So the idea that you could wake up in the middle of the night with this horrible phantom creature hovering over your bed, looking like something from the 1800s with red glowing eyes and saying, death becomes you.

[Elena]

Death becomes you. Death becomes you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And creepy music playing. The idea that that could really happen is true.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Ash]

Closer to it than ever.

[Elena]

I know. We really are.

[Patricia Cornwell]

The hologram can't kill you. However, this serial killer who uses this for stalking, he does it before he shows up. And so that was eerie technology to be sort of digging into. And the old psychiatric hospital, Mercy Island. You know, I love creepy places. Creepy places are a character, and anyone with a show called Morbid certainly knows that.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And then, of course, when she's driving home in the snowy kind of fog and she hears this weird animal howling coming from the woods on her property. And then it turns out when they do voice analysis, the vocalization of it does not seem to belong to any animal on this planet. That is horrifying to me.

[Elena]

Ooh, yeah.

[Ash]

That's chilling for sure.

[Elena]

That alone would have met. I love that. I think that is so true.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I don't know how she stays in her house.

[Elena]

I don't either.

[Ash]

No.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Every time I have a scene, I mean, I'm working on a new one now, and Scarpetta's in her house, and it's a horrible thunderstorm and a transformer's blown somewhere. Kaboom. And the power goes out and all the security clamors are dark. And I'm thinking, why are you staying in this place? Get out.

[Elena]

Get out.

[Ash]

What are you doing, girl?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Find a nice little condo with a doormat man.

[Elena]

Yeah, seriously.

[Ash]

Maybe, like one of the tallest floors he can get.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Survival instinct. Let's go.

[Patricia Cornwell]

She's never. She never really scared. She just takes it in stride. She's always forgetting her gun.

[Elena]

Yeah, she never runs away, though. She's never running.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Rats. I knew I left something behind. This guy standing there in front of the greenhouse. Oh, boy.

[Elena]

We've all been there.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah.

[Ash]

You know, it happens.

[Elena]

And you know what? After, like, more than 30 years of writing Scarpetta, how are you able to keep her evolving? Cause you really do keep her evolving, but still maintaining what a badass she is, like, the core of what she is.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, it's really important that I write stories that are set in the real world and the real world that we live in now, which is changing at the speed of light. And it's a very hard world to set a murder, a crime novel in because there's cameras everywhere. I mean, there's so much technology that if you're not careful, the book would be one page long. Yeah, it's so true, because we already know who did it. You know, we tried that. We found their signal bouncing off that cell tower, and then. And then we got, you know, one cell DNA and figured out who did whatever. So a lot of people aren't choosing to set thrillers, and they sent them in the 80s and the 90s. For that reason, I insist on letting Scarpetta, in fact, making her live in the same world we do and then. And dealing with it accordingly. And so by having that is my focus, you know, I'm going to come up with a different idea for every book. Because, you know, if you're just watching what's going on in society and I have to know what all the latest technologies are, not only to use them, but to defeat them. So that if I want a scene, you know, for example, if I don't want your phone picked up, no signal, then I might have. You use a Faraday bag like this. This is a real thing. You put your phone in this and you cannot receive signals, and they will not transmit signals. And that's the kind of technology they use in what are called skiffs, you know, where you go over top secret information. They use what's called Faraday cages or Faraday bags that block out all electromagnetic signals. Like, if you go to visit some of the various buildings at the FBI Academy in Quantico, they will take your phone the minute you walk into certain buildings. And it gets put in a metal locker that's basically a Faraday cage. Because your phone can be used to spy.

[Elena]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

With WI fi technology, we're open channels for something to hack into it. And as you know from having worked in a medical examiner's office, the big threat these days are our phones and people going in and filming and photographing when they. And then next thing you know, it's the bodies all over the Internet. Yeah, we've seen them. We've seen that every time there's a huge case that's all over the news.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, it's such a problem. And it becomes more and more of a problem as these phones get, like, smaller and thinner and have more technology on them and things you can hide. It's crazy.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And it's also. Now we also have to worry about photographs being posted out there that aren't even real, they're fake. That's the scary. And people believe that is the injury somebody had, and it's completely made up so that these are all. These are all part of the modern challenges that Scarpetta lives with. But. But what I try to do is not get too bogged down in all that because people don't. It's withering after a while. And people want. They want something that makes them feel.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

The haunted old hospital where there's a burial ground, where there's suspicion about how some of those people in the asylum died hundreds of years ago. You know, you want these things that, that. That really go to our core. Just like when you walk into Scarpetta's house, you want to smell her wonderful food, you want something good in the kitchen, you want a lovely bottle of wine or whatever they're going to open. And, you know, that's. I try to make it a rich sensory experience for you, both good and bad.

[Elena]

You really have too. Cause that's one of the things I love about Scarpetta, is that she's like a brilliant cook as well. I love that she has those two parts of her because cooking is so creative and like, you know, emotional and.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Grounding and everybody different friends when they're eating. You know, I. I've had. Over the years, I've had a lot of people ask me, you think, I mean, to Scarpetta know Dexter. And if she met Dexter, I mean, would she rat him out? And I said, well, listen, I. I believe that he lives near her, and I think they get together on foodie night. I love the barbecues where she does that a lot. Her flash dogs and her bourbon honey steaks on the grill, and they. And they discuss pasta. And so I don't know if she knows what he does, but I know she knows what he. What he eats.

[Elena]

Yeah, for sure.

[Ash]

Nice little potluck.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And I think that they're buddies. I'm sorry, but I think they get along just fine.

[Elena]

Oh, I love that. That's canon now.

[Ash]

That makes a great image in your head.

[Patricia Cornwell]

She would say, well, I know that person had it coming, but. But, you know, natural causes.

[Elena]

She saw nothing.

[Ash]

This cast is great, though.

[Elena]

Yeah. So specifically for sharp force. But honestly, this can go with, really, any of your novels. Were there any scenes you've written that you've thought, like, this might be too far, I should tone this down, or. When you feel that way, if you have. Do you just lean further into it?

[Patricia Cornwell]

I don't feel that way about what I write these days because I'm really, really careful of it. But there were some books I wrote earlier, particularly when I decided not to use Scarpetta as the point of view, but to have it more what they call the omniscient point of view, you know, third person. Which means you have to spend time with the killer.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It's going to show what the killer's doing or thinking. And in my book, Book of the Dead, which ironically won one of the biggest awards of all my books.

[Elena]

But.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But in my. But there are things I did in that book that I wouldn't do again. And I mean, this character that bad, the evil person, cannibalism. And it was quite graphic. Disturbingly so for me. I mean, I quit eating at my desk while I was writing that book. But here's. I actually had somebody. I won't say who or where, but there was a research facility where I was offered that. They said, would you like to cook some human flesh and see what that smells like? And I said, no, I would not.

[Elena]

No, thank you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I do not. I will not go back that far from my. My research.

[Elena]

Like, thank you for asking.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I mean, I don't know what people think, but I've. I've been asked if I wanted to try the scalpel and do a Y incision. I said, no, never. That's not for me to do. I am. I'm an.

[Elena]

You think, too.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I don't practice on a dead body.

[Elena]

No, no, that's not.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I'm just. I'm. I'm an author. No, that's not for me to do. You do it and I'll describe what you did.

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, I can. I can observe and still have all that I need to see, but it's.

[Patricia Cornwell]

A good question because everybody should have certain boundaries and you know, I don't want. It's an alarm system that's built in me and actually I think my books are a little bit more gentle that way than they used to be. It will sound crazy, but I try to kill people without it hurting too much.

[Elena]

I love that. I love how beautiful.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Even if they're bad. Even if they're bad. I just say, you know what? I'm gonna get rid of you. You have to be done in. But I'm not gonna drag this out. Just. It won't be too terrible. Just go back to sleep and you'll end up in some other book and you'll be fine.

[Elena]

Yeah, there you go. We'll dispatch of you here and we'll see you later. Well, that makes so much sense to me because I've published two books and they're serial killer thrillers and they throw. I also have a female medical examiner that I kind of like got from my own experience and I found this a challenge in my own books. And I think you're so masterful at this. In particular, I'm curious to know how you managed to maintain such like, sharp in that, pun intended, sharp accuracy forensically in your books. Like, you really keep all of that so accurate and so grounded. But you also, you're welcome. And you also the keep that pace though in your books really tight and keep it really thrilling. So I'm just wondering how you're able to maintain. Like, how do you achieve that?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, fortunately, because I started out actually learning from being in the actual environment. Like if I wanted to know what the scanning electron microscope would do with, you know, if somebody used one of these little things, a post, it you to lift trace evidence off of, you know, they're putting it on the hand or whatever because things will adhere to that very weak adhesive that then go up to the trace evidence lab and then you might see something on the scanning electron microscope that's magnifying something 100,000 times, maybe even a million times. And when you learn about these technologies and what they are and how it works and that, for example, a scanning electron microscope on Earth is actually doing something very similar to what the Webb telescope does out in space, where it's not only defining the morphology, the shape of what you're looking at, like a jagged piece of dust might look like an asteroid when it's magnified that much with the microscope, but just also telling you what something's made out of it can tell you that an Asteroid's made out of platinum. It can tell you that this fleck of paint also has traces of lead. That might mean it's old paint, or there's a little bit of asbestos, or that there's many layers of paint, meaning the car was painted over and over again multiple times. And that would be a unique identifier. If you find the car that hit that person, the hit and run. See what I mean?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So if you've learned the fundamentals of these scientific applications, then when you roll ahead 35 years, as long as you keep up with what's actually being used, it's really not changed that much. You now have rapid DNA testing where you can put a swab in a little. A little machine, basically, and in minutes, it will give you a DNA profile. Well, there was no such thing as that.

[Elena]

No, definitely not.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Just getting started. But it doesn't change the DNA science. It just. What it tells you is that it's so sensitive now that in some cases, it's almost an obstruction. Because if you can walk through a room and leave one cell of DNA, one skin cell, that's going to give your profile. What if that skin cell is from eight months ago? Oh, yeah, you're picking up all kinds of stuff. Yeah, that is actually because it's so sensitive. It's both good and it's bad because it's also picking up all kinds of things that are interfering with what you're thinking. So it's just if you learn, you build on what you learn. If you stop learning, then one day the gap is too big and you can't catch up. So what I say to everybody is whatever you're interested in, and if you spent a lot of time in your early years getting proficient in it, keep up with it, because you'll understand all the changes. But you got to know the fundamentals first.

[Elena]

That's so true.

[Ash]

That is definitely.

[Elena]

You let that gap happen. Like, what you said is totally correct, because having to catch up on all that afterwards, you're just going to be completely out of the galaxy with it. It. There's no way to catch up.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Autopsies are. They're not done all that differently than they were back in the day. Michelangelo was, you know, doing it to learn more about what the human body looks like. I mean, so there are tech. There are things you can use in modern times, like scanning equipment. You know, the virtual autopsy, which is, you know, done with the CT scanner, like the military uses. Like the Baltimore medical examiner's office has one of those. But you know, for the most part, I think autopsies will just keep being done the way they've been done. First of all, as you know, anybody that's worked in that system, it is not Scarpetta has an unusually amazing budget.

[Elena]

She sure does.

[Patricia Cornwell]

She's always complaining about her budget, but whatever she wants, it's somehow magically there.

[Elena]

Because what you need.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Cause I'm Santa Claus. I don't think you need it.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'll give it to her.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, we not only need that kind of microscope, but we need one of these kinds too. For a given woman, just another million dollars.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it. That's actually, it's funny because when, when I worked in the Borg, I was shocked to find out that the things we used for as rib cutters were just like hedge clippers from Home Depot. Like, they were the orange handles.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Oh, listen, when I was, when I worked in the morgue and since, since the, the main, the main show was Dr. Fiero, the woman who then became the first woman chief in Virginia, she would bring in the knitting needles from her. Her in laws and the mother in law that because they all, they, they're Italians, they all lived in the same house. She'd bring in the knitting needles they didn't need anymore, and she used them for bullet probes. So she'd get up, you know, put that. Here's the entrance. Let's see where that thing. Oh, it stops here. Nope. There. You know, especially in multiple gunshot wounds.

[Elena]

That's genius.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, it worked fine. Now you could buy a bullet probe, but. But for X number hundreds of dollars.

[Elena]

And it's the same thing we.

[Patricia Cornwell]

When I was doing some research in the Charleston Medical examiner's office in South Carolina, this is, this is my idea of having fun with a forensic pathologist. On the lunch break, we went shopping. We went shopping to a restaurant supply store.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Huge pots. So that when they're deep, when they were, you know, when the skeletonized body stuff, you know, bodies are coming in, when you want to clean the bones, you. You boil. Yeah, this. Well, that takes a very big cauldron. And so you can't get that in your regular place. So that. My treat. My treat. Because I was making the big bucks, I take them shopping. I say any ladle you want, any big pot, any two cups, steel measuring cup. So that when you're seeing how some, how much someone hemorrhaged in their chest cavity, I'm your person, you're Santa Claus.

[Elena]

To All. Look at that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Now, that's. That is morbid Christmas.

[Elena]

Yeah, that is.

[Ash]

You need to come on morbid more.

[Elena]

You fit right in.

[Patricia Cornwell]

See, nobody's gonna like me anymore after hearing this because now they're hearing what a weirdo I am.

[Ash]

No, you came to the right place.

[Elena]

Our listeners will love you.

[Ash]

Our listeners are called weirdos, in fact.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, you know, it's. Well, I'll tell you the weirdest research I ever did, and I don't recommend this for anyone, but I really did want to know how long a bite mark. If you bit somebody after they're dead, how long does that bite mark, if it's an indentation, how long can you see that before it might fade? Well, I didn't know any dead people that would want me to bite them. Not that I would be willing. Nor did I know any living ones, including me, who might agree to such a thing and wouldn't be the same because I'm going to heal. So I thought, well, what about a piece of chicken? A dead, you know, raw chicken.

[Elena]

Oh, there you go.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So that's what I did. I practiced the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken and answered my question and then would very quickly wash my mouth off with the most powerful antiseptic.

[Ash]

That's exactly what I was just going to ask.

[Elena]

That was lawless of you.

[Ash]

Anything for the research, though, right?

[Patricia Cornwell]

If I were to do it again, I don't know why I didn't just get a pair of dentures or fake clothes. Wouldn't that have been smarter?

[Elena]

But you know what?

[Patricia Cornwell]

You're. I'm a little bit slow on the take sometimes. I should have just. There were many ways to simulate that without me putting my own silly little chip chops on it. You were just committed. Horrible disease from raw chicken meat.

[Elena]

Get some salmonella.

[Ash]

All in a day's work, right?

[Elena]

Well, what'd you find out?

[Patricia Cornwell]

I found out that they would fade a little bit and that if someone bites a dead chicken, we probably can figure out that the chicken was bitten. In other words, it was rather worthless.

[Ash]

All right.

[Elena]

You know, but you can say you did work.

[Patricia Cornwell]

For my purposes. Whatever. I just was curious. And you know what?

[Ash]

You have a good story now, so.

[Elena]

It was worth it.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But you know that I was also the blood supplier when I would do. When I would be filmed for, like, primetime Live or various big shows, and they wanted blood on the floor for something. And. And so I'd say just, you know, I'll be right back and go and prick my finger and go Dripping blood everywhere.

[Elena]

Oh, my goodness. Just leave your DNA.

[Patricia Cornwell]

There you go.

[Elena]

You're welcome.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I mean, if you have a copy of From Potter's Field. Oh, now here is a morbid factoid that hardly anybody knows. Oh, I love that you have an. The early hard copy from Potter's Field, which. Which came out in the mid-90s. On the COVID there is a footprint in snow that has blood drips on it. Okay. Now, I made that footprint in snow by buying an antique military boot. We put fake snow out. We put the boot print in it. I pricked my finger and bled my own blood. And so I said, hypothetically, my DNA is on the COVID of that book.

[Elena]

That is so badass.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That is my blood you're looking at because I took one. You know, nobody else had any blood handy. So I said, oh, no biggie. I'm.

[Ash]

I got some.

[Elena]

You're like, I got some. I got a lot.

[Ash]

You took blood, sweat, and tears to the next level off blood.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Amazing.

[Patricia Cornwell]

In sports, five games were featured in.

[Elena]

Hockey action last evening. Did you see the game last night? Of course you did, because you used.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Instacart to do your grocery restock. Plus you got snacks for the game.

[Elena]

All without missing a single play. That's on multitasking. So we're not saying that Instacart is a hack for game day, but it might be the ultimate play this football season.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Enjoy. $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

[Elena]

Service fee, first three orders in 14 days excludes restaurants. Instacart, we're here. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie.

[Ash]

One thing I've learned is that you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Buy a house, but you make it a home.

[Ash]

And for decades, Angie Angie's helped millions.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter.

[Ash]

Get all your jobs done.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, at Angie.com@maurices, we're all about great jeans.

[Ash]

You know, the ones that fit you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Just right, the ones that simply make you feel good. Because you don't just wear jeans, you live in them.

[Ash]

Find great jeans starting at $29.90 in.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Stores and at Marisa's dot com.

[Ash]

Switching gears a little bit here, I wanted to talk about your characters a little bit, and obviously you've been writing them for a while. So do you feel like they kind of lead you to where they want to go sometimes at this point, or do you feel totally in control writing them where they should be?

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know, it's a funny thing. I guess the best way to answer that is I would say it's a collaboration because I think in terms of scenes, you know, and sometimes I'll actually have a list of certain scenes that I want to do and I kind of map out how to get her to wherever that scene is. But sometimes she has ideas of her own. And there are also times where she and Marina are getting in the truck to head somewhere, and I'm not really sure what they're going to find when they get there. And I'll say to them, not literally, but I'm thinking, I hope you know what you're doing, because I'm drawing a big blank about where to go.

[Elena]

You better show me. Right.

[Patricia Cornwell]

They're driving along, wishing they had a cigarette, chewing gum. They're not listening to me.

[Elena]

No.

[Patricia Cornwell]

In fact, you know, when they go to the. The food court after a hard day of working, terrible crime scene, they. They sit there and Marino says, you know, it was like something straight out of a Patricia Cornwell novel. Do you not even know that you're in a novel? I mean, well, do we know what we're in? Maybe we're in a novel.

[Elena]

Maybe. Sometimes I feel that way.

[Ash]

It does feel that way.

[Elena]

I love that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, there is the theory that we're living in a simulated universe.

[Elena]

And every once in a while you'll be like, is it true? Like, sometimes things happen that you're like. Makes sense. Yeah. So how does it feel? I have to ask this to have inspired literally, like a generation of thriller slash crime writers, particularly women. Specifically me.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Good. Then I've done a good thing. If I've inspired you.

[Elena]

You really have. Like, you were the first person, especially like a woman writer and writing about the things that I was so excited to learn about because I was always very interested in, like, the autopsy part.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Now in your books is your main. Who is your main character?

[Elena]

My main character is Dr. Ren Mueller.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And what kind of doctor is she?

[Elena]

She's a forensic pathologist.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Ah, well, now I'm gonna give you a. I'll share a trade secret with you then, since we both write about the same. Thing is, you know, when I was getting started, medical examiners had a very prescribed thing that they did. And sometimes the forensic pathologist would go to a crime scene. And back in those days, there weren't really death investigators, but, you know, they did their thing and they testified in court and they taught and that was about it. It's really. These days, boundaries are not quite so clear. And I know a lot of forensic pathologists who've gone way over those boundaries. You know, where they Actually will get more involved in helping you reconstruct what happen to, you know, in a shooting or this. And I think that. I think that we have permission to make our forensic pathologists a little bit more proactive.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Especially since this is something most people don't know. And I don't know if this is true in Massachusetts, but I do know it's true in, like, the Los Angeles Coroner's office, that a lot of forensic pathologists are also peace officers. They were sworn police, and they have to have a gun, they have to know how to shoot it, they carry a badge, and they can arrest people.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But they don't usually do it. And one of the reasons that they're peace officers is very often these people, they respond to scenes in very dangerous areas, as, you know.

[Elena]

Absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

My only thing I would say to you is, you know, you can let your person. I, you know, maybe you already do, but I think that you can have them more proactive. Because one of the things I would get frustrated with. With writing about a medical examiner is I want her to sit down with a family and talk to them in their home. I want her to go somewhere, I want her to do something, I want her to get. I want more drama.

[Elena]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so I have really ramped up the drama. I mean, I have Scarpetta doing all kinds of things that she, you know, maybe she wouldn't really do, but it doesn't matter, does it?

[Elena]

Yeah. And it makes sense.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But I had to learn to not be too wedded to what I knew was true and that it took me years to get over working around the real environment all the time, because I feel like, well, you can't have her do that. A medical examiner. Oh, no, she can't be a helicopter pilot. No medical examiner could be a helicopter pilot. She better make Lucy the helicopter pilot. Well, if I were doing that again today, I probably would have scared how to be a helicopter pilot, because why not? I might have that. She learned it in the military. Who knows what I would do? But I would give her a very different background. If I were starting this all over again, I would have her more. A little bit more dramatic, more involved in stuff. And I think that you can do that. You know, it's sort of like in Great Britain, where they have what's called a police surgeon. Yeah, that's really. The old tradition is having a doctor that. That assists with the police, but that, you know, but they're actually kind of working more with the police than just something is very separate from It. So I would say pull out all the stops, baby.

[Elena]

Hell yeah. I love. That's great advice. I love that. Cause I love having that. Cause I think it's fun to. One of the things I love about Kay Scarpetta especially is that we get to see so much of her life, like inside and outside of the morgue. And I think she has so much agency outside of the morgue as well. So that's why her character has really always been my number one girl. Cause I just really think she's such a badass in and outside of what she does.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Oh, well, listen, if we did a lot of laundry list of how many people she's had to kill, how many times someone's tried to kill her.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I don't think there's any human on the planet that's had so many near misses or so many dramatic moments has got Dr. Scarpetta. But considering she's been out there for 35 years, I don't. If she wants to carry her gun in her bulletproof Kevlar briefcase that Lucy gave her, that, by the way, is also fireproof and can sustain a microwave weapon. True story. I mean, I have. I have one in. Under my shelf over here, so. Because when, when I write about something like that, then Stacy decides, my partner decides that I should have a Kevlar briefcase too. And I'm thinking, but where might I carry that?

[Elena]

I love that. Everywhere. I love that. She's like, your Santa. She's like, well, you need one too.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I order strange things. If I have the characters wearing a gas mask, then I've got to know what it feels like to put one of those on. And so I order stuff and then end up giving it away to somebody who would want such a strange thing.

[Ash]

So you're very tactile.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, I. If I believe it, then you'll believe it.

[Elena]

Yeah, it makes sense.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I believe what I'm. If I don't believe what I'm saying because I really don't know the answer, then. Then I just can't write about it with authority for sure. So I try to. I mean, a lot of things you can just. You can imagine, you can fill in the blanks. You don't have to try everything and certainly don't try, you know, being a serial killer. Don't do that.

[Elena]

Yeah, don't try. Great advice. Great advice.

[Ash]

Life, if you take one thing away.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But I think there's. There's never a substitution for witnessing something for yourself, if you can.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Because you, you will learn something. You will be surprised by a detail you will never ever imagine. I remember the first time I stood out on a launch pad for, you know, at a NASA site on Wallops island in Virgin, in Virginia, where they brought fire rockets off all the time. And I was taken out to this launch pad and it was very windy. It's right on the ocean. It's a stark, barren landscape with all the scaffolding. And I'm looking at it and I've seen pictures, I know what it looks like. But what I never knew is when the wind was blowing through the scaffolding, it created this eerie music, which is eerie and it's like space music. And I'm standing there and I'm thinking, am I the only one hearing this right now?

[Elena]

And you never would have known that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah, no, but it's just you get. You get surprised and if you go to the. If you see cases that come into the medical examiner's office, the poignancy of like, people. And I'm so sorry to say it, but people who have a baby die and then it's brought in and it's in the bassinet and that just goes right through you when you see that it and. Or you find. I'll never forget that this was a true case, a real case in my early days at the morgue where this woman had gone out to a bar and she's walking home along a Highway around 3 o' clock in the morning, you know, drunk, and she gets hit by a car and she ends up in our office. She's on the table in the next morning, and so she. The state troopers going through her stuff, and he pulls the little slip of paper from a fortune cookie out of her wallet that clearly meant so much to her that she saved it. And it said, you will soon have an encounter that will change the course of your life.

[Elena]

Wow.

[Ash]

I just got goosebumps.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Little did she know that that encounter was a car on a dark highway.

[Elena]

Yes.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And I'll never forget the look on the state trooper's face. He didn't know whether to laugh or to cry for a minute.

[Elena]

Yeah. Wow, that's chilling because it's so bizarre. Like, what are the odds?

[Patricia Cornwell]

Or the goofy teenage boy who thinks it's cool he's trying to impress some girl. He's like 13 or 14. And this country boy standing up in the back of a pickup truck and they went under an overpass and he hit his head. He comes in and in his pocket is a dented can of Old Spice deodorant.

[Elena]

Oh, man.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And you can imagine that he is trying to smell nice for these girls he's trying to impress that he's showing off for, and that's the last moment of his life. And these are the sort of things that it's very. They're so important for me to remember and to witness and. Because if you don't put the humanity into all this, we can joke all we want about morbidity, but if you don't really tell it in the lap of life going on, and the pain and the reality of all this, if you don't recognize it at some level, then it's really not worth telling the story. And nobody should wanna read it either.

[Elena]

No, it's so true. And all of that really reminds me of the nail polish that I would see on people and be like, you just painted your nails, had no idea what was gonna come next, and that that was it forever. It's like those little things were the things that shocked me about my first few autopsies was how they, like, affected me.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It's very true. I mean, one of the. I did a show that had to do with Princess Diana's death. This was about 20 years ago, a little over 20 years ago. And one of the people I interviewed was the assistant, the pathology assistant who was there for her autopsy.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And the thing that I remembered so vividly is that she. He said she had on turquoise toenail polish.

[Elena]

Oh. And it's just like that little thing.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And I, you know, I know everything else that he said, you know, about what he found and some of the injuries and all that, but the two things that struck me the most were the turquoise toenail polish that she had on that she put on right before, I guess she'd gone to the Ritz or whatever in Paris. And that I was told by somebody who saw her body that a lot of her fingers were broken.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And I can't vouch for that myself, but I suspect it's true, because she and Dodi Al Fayed were not. They weren't wearing seatbelts in the back of that car. And here's one of the main reasons you would wonder if it's really a conspiracy, their deaths is if they'd had their seatbelts on, they might not have died, but they didn't. So when you, bam. Hit that cement piling in that tunnel, she's. You're going to go forward. And same thing happens in plane crashes and people break their fingers from trying to. It's a. It's A really.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Impact.

[Elena]

Yeah. That's like the first thing you do, but it's so.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And. And it's those details that humanize.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And then you see this poor person. She might have been one of the most famous women in the world, but it's the poignancy of those human details that grab us.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Not so much how much their heart weighed. Who cares?

[Elena]

Yeah. Right. It's like she's a mom, she's a friend, she's, you know, she's a woman. She's just. She's more than what she is on the table. That was always. The thing that we were always trying to maintain was this is more than just a body on the table. This is somebody. Somebody.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, here's the thing. If you don't see it as more than just a body on the table, you may miss a very important clue.

[Elena]

That's the. You shouldn't be in that morgue if you don't know.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I mean, really, really, truly. Because, you know, for example, I remember this early case of a terrible sexual homicide. Young woman comes home and the guy's hiding in her closet because he had a key. He's a maintenance worker. And she. I mean, it wasn't solved for a long time, but it's a horrible case. And he was with her all night long. And she died about six o' clock the next morning. And when her body came to the office, we took it in the X ray room. This was in the early days when we were just starting to use laser to look for trace evidence on the body. Because some things will light up and you find them. And so this was a new thing. And we were in there using the laser, going over her whole body, looking for any evidence. And it was remarkably clean. And the thing that I noticed is that her legs were so cleanly shaven that either they'd been waxed or she just shaved them. And so I'm thinking, well, she'd been out all day, she came home late at night, she didn't die until the next morning. She shouldn't look this smooth.

[Elena]

No.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And so I thought, I guarantee you this guy made her take a bath and. Yeah, and I guarantee that he made her shave her legs, you know, and maybe because that was part of his ritual and part of the control that he was exerting over her, but if you're not really looking at that person, you're not going to start thinking things like that and wondering. You're not getting into them and trying to channel what might have happened to them.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And we owe them that. As painful as that is, we owe them our most sincere and devoted attention at that last moment. I mean, God knows what they've been through. If they don't talk to us and we don't listen, then nobody's going to.

[Elena]

So true. So true. Is there a book that you've read recently that just, like, blew your mind?

[Patricia Cornwell]

This is a book I keep on my desk that blows my mind, and I highly recommend it. It's called the Creative Act Being by Rick Rubin, and it's all about creativity. And these little quotes and stuff like, it's not unusual for science to catch up with art eventually.

[Elena]

Oh, look at that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It's unusual for art to catch up to the spiritual. But there. But there's all stuff. All kinds of things in here that if you are a creative, no matter what kind of creative, writer, artist, scientist, podcaster, that it writes your perspective of a creative process and of the things to be mindful of to make it work for you better.

[Elena]

That's so cool.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And the biggest thing it teaches you is to let go. Don't try to force things.

[Elena]

I love that. Which I think we all need.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's great advice.

[Elena]

Everybody needs that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But you should order this. I keep it on my desk.

[Ash]

What was that called again? I'm gonna write it down.

[Patricia Cornwell]

The Creative Act, A Way of Being, by Rick Rubin, who's a music producer.

[Elena]

All right, I want to order that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah, but look, I mean, I'm telling you that it's something that you will keep around. I mean, I like to read things. There are novels that I'll look at because the writing is so amazing. Like Chris Whitaker.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

All the colors of the dark. And he is really such a talented, brilliant writer. And I like to look at what he does with words and how he sets the scene. He's a young guy. I'm still learning, you know, from people. Oh, yeah. I have a Hemingway novel that I've been rereading for decades called the Garden of Eden.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And it was published posthumously. And it's not the. It's not the best example of his work, but it's fascinating because the main character is a novelist, and it's. And, you know, it's really Hemingway's, you know, alter ego, but he describes what it's like to get up in the morning and walk and feel the cold stone under his bare feet as he's walking down to the end of this hotel hallway where he is writing in his room and looking out at the ocean and all These things. And he laments about how writing makes him selfish. And he knows he's selfish because. And anybody. Hello. If you're. If this is what you're doing, you kind of cut off. You cut out everybody while you're doing it. And those who live with us have to know that if we don't do that, we won't get it done.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Patricia Cornwell]

But it does. But I was so grateful and continue to be, in addition to some of the amazing ways Hemingway describes things. But it's nice to read something that you. That you relate to.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That you go, I know exactly what he feeling. I feel the same thing. I may not be Hemingway, but I know what he's feeling.

[Ash]

Yeah, it makes you feel seen, for sure.

[Elena]

And honestly, that's what a lot of your books did. For me, when I started working in the morgue, it was like, oh, I get this. I know that smell. Like, I know how she's feeling here. I know the frustration in this point. And I find myself now still loving that kind of thing, but also loving to read books, books about writers where the writer is a main character. Because I'm like, yep, I know that frustration now. So it is. It's so true. When you can relate, it's just such a richer story. I feel like.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yes, I agree. Well, you know, I feel like that's really why we are storytellers. We want people to gather around and to make them feel included and to share an adventure with them.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

It's not supposed to be this isolative experience where, oh, look at what I did. Now tell me how good I am. No, in fact, if you really do a good job as a writer, people shouldn't be all that conscious of your writing. What they should see is what you're showing them. Yes, they should. Woof. You know that scene, you're taking them on a journey? It's not a book. It's a plane ticket. It's a ticket to ride. It's a voyage. We want to take places that your medical examiner in mind. We want them to take people places that they don't usually get to go. And medical examiner facilities are really that way more than they used to be. Because ever since COVID in particular, many of these places are very closed. They don't want anybody coming in. They're worried about leaks. They're worried about diseases. They're worried about lawsuits. They're worried about everything.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Covid was a wild time in the morgue. I was working in the morgue during.

[Ash]

COVID It Was a sight to see.

[Elena]

When Elena would come home. Yeah, we had different, you know, the protocol calls for that. Went crazy. I mean, it needed to. But it was in particular doing neuro cases, doing a brain cutting. We had to, like, build a box over the person's head and then use our arms in, like, full, you know, gear to do it in the box.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Exactly.

[Elena]

What that.

[Patricia Cornwell]

If you go to Johnson Space center and you want to touch a moon rock, this tank, I think, is filled with nitrogen, and they have the gloves built in, and you have to manipulate it with. It's called a glove.

[Elena]

That's what we did with the brain cutting.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So you just. You became an astronaut.

[Elena]

Look at that. I didn't even know it.

[Patricia Cornwell]

So there you go.

[Elena]

Look at me. I can add it to my resume.

[Ash]

You're doing all kinds of things.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, you know, that's an interesting thing that you could describe because we hope that Covid doesn't come back, but you could have. You could have anything that is hazardous, toxic, possibility, radiation, poisons, anything where you have to implement those kind of protocols. And the nice thing is, you know exactly how it works.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah, it was. It's so true. I could describe that to a T.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You could come up with almost anything where you. I mean, you could have a big piece of the International Space Station that crashes down to earth with somebody that didn't make it. And you can't treat that like normal human beings because of where it's been.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

And when the flying saucer shows up, you know, with one of those little gray people in it, you can take all kinds of precautions, all the same precautions. But we hope that those are. The visitors don't die. We don't want them in the morgue.

[Elena]

Yeah. We don't want that. That. We want to hang with them.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah, exactly. We want to hang with them, find out about them.

[Ash]

Well, Patricia, thank you so much for joining us. This has been so much fun.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, you're very welcome. It has been fun. This has been amazing, both of you with everything.

[Elena]

Thank you so much. And also, just so you know, you're in the acknowledgments of my first book.

[Ash]

We'll have to send it to you. You should.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Well, I think your character needs to occasionally give Scarpetta a call. Just compare notes.

[Elena]

Oh, my God. There you go. The dream.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I don't. I'm just telling you, they know each other. Are you aware.

[Elena]

I feel like they do. They.

[Patricia Cornwell]

I think they do. I think that they are friends and they didn't tell Us. But she didn't tell me much. She doesn't think I exist. But what I'm telling you is, you know, I bet that they're buddies.

[Elena]

I think.

[Patricia Cornwell]

You know what? I bet they hang out with Dexter. Both of them.

[Elena]

100.

[Patricia Cornwell]

That's real.

[Elena]

Now, that's canon. I love it.

[Ash]

Well, everybody, check out the latest installment to Patricia's work, Sharp Force, which comes out tomorrow. If you're listening to this right away, so good. October 7th. And we also can't wait to tune in to Scarpetta next spring. Huge congratulations to you, and thank you again.

[Elena]

Thank you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Thank you so much. Take care. You, too.

[Elena]

And you're welcome back anytime.

[Ash]

Yeah, please come back.

[Patricia Cornwell]

We will.

[Elena]

Yeah, definitely.

[Ash]

All right. We'll see you then.

[Patricia Cornwell]

All right.

[Elena]

Thank you.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Bye.

[Elena]

How cool was that, guys?

[Ash]

That was so. That was so fun.

[Elena]

It was awesome. That was. You're geeking. When she said. When she told me that K. Scarpetta and Ren Mueller would be friends.

[Ash]

Yeah, that's. That was next level.

[Elena]

I'll even.

[Ash]

I was just like, oh, my God.

[Elena]

Yeah, I'm not even here anymore. No.

[Ash]

Elena has passed away.

[Elena]

I'm. I've shuffled off. I. I have danced off this mortal coil after that. Did a little jig off this mortal coil. Awesome. We hope you guys dug that as much as we did.

[Ash]

Also, we are going to bring back back the morbid book club.

[Elena]

We've decided, Patricia, because remember, we have a. We have a bonus episode to play around with so we can make it whatever the fuck we want.

[Patricia Cornwell]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Patricia inspired us. I haven't read any of the Scarpetta series, and now I want to.

[Elena]

You'll love her.

[Ash]

So in the next couple of months, we're going to start with. It's Postmortem.

[Elena]

Postmortem is her first book in the series.

[Ash]

All right, so our bonus episode in a couple months will be going over postmortem. So everybody start reading if you haven't yet.

[Elena]

Yeah, I figure we'll sprinkle in the book club here and there on a bonus episode, so. So we're gonna make those fun. So fun. They can be all kinds of things. So if you guys wanna get with us on the postmortem thing so we can talk about it and go through it so you can listen to it. You can read it. You have a couple months to catch up on it. We'll let you know when it's coming. Also, how fucking awesome is Patricia's voice? Great voice. She is literally Clarice Starling.

[Ash]

Elena said it to me before we started the interview. And I was like, oh, as soon as it start. As soon as she started talking, I.

[Elena]

Was like, oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, she created one of my favorite characters and she sounds like one of my favorite characters.

[Ash]

She is my favorite.

[Elena]

I'm like, damn, Patricia. I love it.

[Ash]

Yeah, that was, that was phenomenal.

[Elena]

It really was.

[Ash]

Check out Patricia's. All of Patricia's stuff. We got Sarapeta coming.

[Elena]

We got Sharp Force.

[Ash]

Sharp Force coming. And in a couple months we'll have.

[Elena]

Postmortem go take it back to the beginning.

[Ash]

So we hope you keep listening and.

[Elena]

We hope you keep you hit but.

[Ash]

Not so weird that you don't join us for our book club and check out all of Patricia's things because it's so good. Everything is fun.

[Elena]

Thrillers.

[Patricia Cornwell]

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[Ash]

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[Patricia Cornwell]

And more done well.

[Ash]

So the next time you have a home project, leave it to the pros.

[Patricia Cornwell]

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[Ash]

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[Patricia Cornwell]

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[Ash]

Great prices, they'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh.

[Patricia Cornwell]

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[Ash]

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[Patricia Cornwell]

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[Ash]

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