The Kidnapping of Patty Hearst (Part 2)

Summary

Morbid Podcast: "The Kidnapping of Patty Hearst (Part 2)"

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: September 1, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode is the second installment in Morbid’s exploration of the infamous 1974 kidnapping of Patty Hearst by the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA). Ash and Alaina continue their immersive, research-heavy (and appropriately irreverent) approach, focusing on Patty's experience in captivity, the emotional toll on her family, and the beginnings of her apparent transformation from hostage to active SLA participant. The hosts highlight the psychological complexities at play, discuss the contemporary context, and build anticipation for future episodes—balancing dark history with heartfelt commentary and humorous asides.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Studio Vibes, Live Show Announcements, and General Updates

• The hosts open by talking about the energy shift in their podcast studio and excitement about new opportunities with SiriusXM.
  • “We opened the windows, we were like, bye rancid energy!” (02:22, Ash)
• Announcement of a second live show at the Wilbur Theatre after the first sold out in under three minutes (04:01–04:41).
• Mentions of special show merchandise and updates on their other podcast, "The ReWatcher," teasing a new season covering True Blood (05:42–06:12).

2. Acknowledgment of Recent Tragedy and Teacher Support

• The hosts address a recent school shooting in Minneapolis and share heartfelt thoughts on gun violence and the burdens placed on teachers.
  • “We need to do better than thoughts and prayers. We need to do something.” (08:52, Alaina)
  • “As soon as we've barely started the school year and there's already a school shooting, it really makes it hit a little harder how much faith and how much pressure we are putting on teachers...” (11:30, Alaina)
• Ash and Alaina invite teachers to send their Amazon wishlists to the show for support (11:00–12:15).

3. Recap of Part 1 and Transition into Part 2

• Ash provides a concise summary for new listeners, emphasizing the sociopolitical climate of the late 60s and early 70s and distinguishing the violent trajectory of the SLA from other movements.
  • “We covered a lot of the background of this era… how the youths of the time were trying to start a revolution… and how some groups were doing it very peacefully… others, the Symbionese Liberation Army, were doing things like kidnapping Patty Hearst.” (13:04, Ash)
• Transition into Part 2, focusing on Patty’s time in captivity.

4. Patty Hearst’s Captivity: Conditions and Psychological Impact

• Patty was kept in a closet (6.5 ft deep, 2 ft wide, 8 ft high) in total darkness with little room to move for extended periods (14:11–14:43).
  • “At all times, she was in total darkness... The claustrophobia must have been next level.” (14:35, Ash)
• Blindfolded whenever outside, Patty learned to distinguish her captors by their voices, noting the differences in demeanor, particularly between Donald DeFreeze (the gruff, self-important leader) and more hesitant members like Bill Harris (15:29–16:21).
  • “He [DeFreeze] told Patty she had been, ‘arrested, not kidnapped, because her father was a corporate enemy of the people.’” (15:55, Ash; 15:52 quote via DeFreeze)
• One chilling moment: DeFreeze referenced her birthday, showing detailed knowledge of her personal life (18:13).

5. SLA Tactics and the Shift in Patty’s Behavior

• The SLA limited Patty’s direct interaction to three members from similar socioeconomic backgrounds, trying to foster rapport and information gathering (19:24–19:47).
• Over time, restrictions eased and she began engaging in longer conversations about art, literature, and politics, developing connections that blurred the lines between captor and captive (24:44–25:36).
• The hosts discuss how this “humanization” of her captors, coupled with isolation and trauma, laid the groundwork for brainwashing.

6. The Statement Tapes: Worry and Guilt for the Family

• Patty’s communiqués started showing increased frustration toward her parents.
  • [Clip]: “I don't believe you're doing anything at all.” (22:15, Patty’s message)
  • Alaina’s reaction: “Knowing my child thought I wasn't doing anything to save them… might kill me where I stand.” (22:58)
• Emotional analysis of her parents’ likely guilt and helplessness (23:32–24:44).

7. Developing Relationships with SLA Members

• Notably, Patty formed a bond with Willie Wolf—another child of privilege turned radical—engaging in hours-long personal discussions (28:05–28:39).
• Willie’s own radicalization traced to his time tutoring in prison, where he met other SLA members (28:47–29:12).

8. Patty’s Transformation and the Public Break

• By early April, Patty had been a captive for almost two months. The SLA sent a communication stating Patty would be released within 72 hours, but a day later, a tape from Patty announced she had joined the SLA by choice and had taken the name "Tanya" after a revolutionary figure (34:50–35:59).
  • Notable quote (Patty, 34:50):
    “I have been given the choice of one, being released in a safe area, or two, joining the forces of the Symbionese Liberation Army and fighting for my freedom and the freedom of all oppressed people. I have chosen to stay and to fight. I have been given the name Tanya.”
• The shock and heartbreak for her family was palpable.
  • “Imagine… you get a communication, she's coming back, she's gonna be released… and then one day later she has completely flopped and is joining the army that kidnapped her in the middle of the night.” (36:35, Ash)
• Her father, Randolph Hearst, responded:
  • “We've had her for 20 years. They've had her 60 days. And I don't believe she's going to change her philosophy that quickly and that permanently… But if her choice is to become a member of an organization like this, we will still love her and she's free to do whatever she wants.” (38:16, read by Ash from press statement)

9. Debate: Brainwashing vs. Willful Participation

• The hosts engage in discussion about the reality of brainwashing:
  • “Radicalization can happen pretty quick if it's intense enough…” (39:23, Alaina)
  • “She said, ‘I have never been forced to say anything on tape, nor have I been brainwashed, drugged, tortured, hypnotized, or in any way confused. It's me the way I want it, the way I see it.’” (40:09, quoting Patty’s tape, 40:23)
  • Ash and Alaina push back, noting the effect of extended isolation, trauma, and lack of outside perspective.

10. The Hibernia Bank Robbery: Public Proof of Patty’s Status

• On April 15, 1974, Patty Hearst is filmed wielding a machine gun during a brazen, violent bank robbery, shouting,
  “This is Tanya. Patty Hearst!” as the group flees (47:09).
  • “That single, now-iconic image of Patty carrying a machine gun would come to represent the entire story in the minds of America for decades to come.” (46:36, Ash)
• Police and family initially hold out hope she was acting under duress, but security footage (showing someone armed directly behind Patty) complicates the debate.
• “We are discussing the possibility very thoroughly that this was a staged job to show off Patty Hearst as a member of their ranks.” (48:14, Police Captain Mortimer McHenry)
  • The hosts mock Patty’s decision to “announce herself” during the crime, finding it both tragic and baffling (47:09–48:46).

11. Community Reaction and Media Frenzy

• Despite official reluctance to charge Patty immediately, public and media skepticism about her "willingness" grows (52:09).
• Her parents continue to insist Patty is suffering from “prolonged struggles, fatigue and demoralization” (56:08, Ash quoting the Hearsts).

12. Patty’s Own Post-Robbery Taped Statement

• In yet another tape, Patty proclaims:
  • “My gun was loaded, and at no time did any of my comrades intentionally point their guns at me. I am obviously alive… As for being brainwashed, the idea is ridiculous to the point of being beyond belief.” (54:23)
• The hosts unpack this as classic brainwashing language, noting that believing you haven’t been manipulated is often a sign that you were (55:35–56:08).

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the emotional state of the hosts in the new studio era:
  • "We're revitalizing and gutting it. Because the energy in this place was fucking rancid." (02:00, Alaina)
• On teachers and gun violence in schools:
  • "Every time I'm like, I am asking you to throw yourself in front of my child to be a human shield in that unthinkable event." (09:21, Alaina)
• Patty’s chilling realization:
  • "A few days into keeping her, Patty was asking when she was going to be able to go home. And Donald DeFreeze just looked at her and was like, what? You want to go home for your birthday?" (18:13, Ash referencing DeFreeze)
• Patty’s message to her family after two months in captivity:
  • "I don't believe you're doing anything at all." (22:15, Patty in recording)
• The moment Patty declares her new allegiance:
  • "I have chosen to stay and to fight. I have been given the name Tanya after a comrade who fought alongside Che in Bolivia." (34:50)
• On the trauma caused to her parents:
  • “It's something that I think is one of the most vicious things I have ever seen or ever had happen to me.” (50:32, Randolph Hearst)
• Hosts' philosophical take on brainwashing:
  • “You can be brainwashed and still believe that you’re not in the brainwashing… That’s kind of what brainwashing is all about.” (55:35, Alaina)
  • “This is a multi-layered onion here that I don’t think will ever really be understood… There’s so many things going on.” (55:38, Alaina)

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Timeline of Major Events (with Timestamps)

• [14:11–14:43] – Details of Patty’s living conditions during captivity
• [18:13] – DeFreeze reveals knowledge of Patty’s birthday
• [22:15] – Patty’s tape displaying impatience and disaffection toward her parents
• [34:50–35:59] – Patty publicly announces decision to join the SLA as “Tanya”
• [47:09] – Patty wields machine gun and identifies herself at the Hibernia Bank robbery
• [54:23] – Patty’s denials of brainwashing in her post-robbery statement

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Closing Notes & Next Episode Tease

The hosts end by marveling at the “evil onion” of complexity in Patty Hearst’s transformation and social impact, promising further revelations in upcoming parts (especially regarding what happened in mid-May).

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Summary by PodcastMuse AI | September 2025
For listeners and true crime fans wanting both context and empathy—Morbid delivers their signature blend of dread, heart, and laughter, making history as human as it is haunting.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Hey weirdos. I'm Elena.

[A]

I'm Ash and this is Morbid. It's our first exclusive episode with Sirius Y. I am like the feeling in this room.

[B]

Oh, it's wild.

[A]

It's palpable. If you guys were. You guys are here.

[B]

You can feel it.

[A]

It's palpable. Like we're cleaning the Pod Lab. We're entering a new era.

[B]

We're not just cleaning the Pod Lab, we are revitalizing and gutting it. Because the energy in this place was fucking rancid.

[A]

Rank ass energy.

[B]

Yeah, it was rancid as hell. So we said get the fuck outta here energy. And we're bringing new, wonderful, happy energy into this room.

[A]

Yeah, it's insane.

[B]

No particular reason for any of that. Just happy energy being brought into the room.

[A]

It's insane. Like the actual physical baggage, but also like the emotional, energetic baggage that was just hanging out that can accumulate over a few years.

[B]

Yeah, it's true. You can, it's. And it sounds like crazy, but it really is. Like you can feel the heaviness in this room. That's why we were like, we opened the windows, we were like, bye. Yeah, we got rid of everything. Like, we're starting anew. So this pod lab will look a little different when you see it on camera.

[A]

Yeah. And actually, we're going to start doing listener tales, like, switching off our sides of the room.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I'm excited for. Yeah. Because, like, Elena's wall is so Elena and mine. I need to revamp mine a little bit. Like, it's still very me, but I need to kind of like.

[B]

Well, we're. We're revamping. We're gutting. Exactly.

[A]

But, yeah, so that'll be fun. Like, switching off.

[B]

Yeah. It feels like a new era and we're very excited.

[A]

I can't express to you how happy I've been, like, the last few days.

[B]

Oh, we. The three of us in this room have been literally laughing so hard the last few days that we've been, like, crying, coughing, sputtering, falling on the ground. Like, we are just in a state of. We're just. We're very excited for Sirius and we're excited. We really love the people that we are working with at Sirius and we feel very at home. Yeah.

[A]

Things are just awesome right now. In fact, things are so awesome that we said, why not do another live show? Hey, you guys, you sold out the first one in under three minutes, which was truly insane. Picture frames are falling on Alina.

[B]

There's a lot of.

[A]

There's a lot of things around.

[B]

There's a lot of. Hoo. Ha.

[A]

Like, we said, we're unpacking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But no, you guys sold out the Wilbur. You helped us do that in under three minutes. So we said, honey, we gotta add another show. There's a lot of weirdos that couldn't get tickets.

[B]

Exactly. And you guys are saying, like, shit, I wanted a ticket. And we're like, let's get you one.

[A]

We said, we'll do what we can do. Like, not going on a nationwide tour by any means, but, you know, we'll have another show. And we did. So that goes on sale September 8th at, like, the Wilbur website, wherever you got tickets.

[B]

Yeah. And the show will be the 28th. So the Sunday after the. The first show, which is on the 26th.

[A]

Yeah. We did the Friday and then a Sunday. Give us a little break for our.

[B]

Beauty rest, you know, Revitalize.

[A]

Exactly. I'm so excited.

[B]

So, yeah, get. September 8th. Get those tickets. Same. It's at the Wilbur. So you can get them the same way you got the first ones.

[A]

Yep. It'll be the same show. Just so you know.

[B]

Yep, same show.

[A]

So just in case, if you got.

[B]

It, you got it, you might want to see.

[A]

I don't know if you want to see it again, but just know going into it that it won't be a different show.

[B]

Yeah, it's not going to be a different show, but we're very excited about it. Yeah.

[A]

And we'll get to meet some of you guys. There's some meet and greet tickets up there, too.

[B]

There's going to be special merch for Just for the show.

[A]

Exclusive.

[B]

And for the merch that's going to be like special merch for the shows. We collabed with Matt at the Black Veil. Our buddy Matt. We love Black Veil.

[A]

Our good bud. Our good bud.

[B]

And he helped. He designed our merch. So I'm very excited about that.

[A]

And if you're familiar with Matt and Ryan, please have no fear. We have Ryan working on some other stuff.

[B]

We do.

[A]

We are. There are big things happening. Hey, hey, hey. Big things happening.

[B]

Big things happening. We're gonna be having a new season of the Rewatcher coming in a couple months.

[A]

Gonna be covering True Blood.

[B]

We're gonna be covering True Blood. So if you haven't joined the re Watcher crowd, if you weren't, you know, if Buffy wasn't your thing, that's okay. Maybe join True Blood. Going to be fucking hilarious for True Blood.

[A]

I'm super excited.

[B]

And we have some really cool things for True Blood. We have a new theme song that we can't say what it is yet because we're going to make it a surprise.

[A]

But you know what? A friend helped us.

[B]

A friend helped us with the friend of the pod, so. Well, don't worry. You'll find out.

[A]

Yeah, you'll find out.

[B]

But that's all very exciting things.

[A]

What other bid nasty Is there any other. We're both looking at Mikey, like, Michael.

[B]

Michael.

[A]

What? Michael, what do we have?

[B]

Tell me about my life.

[A]

This isn't Bidney. Bidney.

[B]

What?

[A]

This isn't bid Nasty. But I have discovered that I can drink cold brew now.

[B]

Yeah, she has.

[A]

It's made me a brand new bitch.

[B]

Yeah, I think it gives her a high like I've never seen.

[A]

That's the thing. And it's not like a. It's nice because I'm. It's just like a nice smooth happiness. I used to drink cold brew and feel like my heart was literally racing out of my chest and gonna just like fall onto the floor. Now I'm just like. I'm so happy. I love everyone.

[B]

She's been hilarious. She's always hilarious. But she's been extra hilarious this week.

[A]

Oh, my God. We're also working on. So, like, when you go to the Wilbur show, obviously, like, we're not out on stage right away. It takes us a minute to get ready.

[B]

So you listen to a cool playlist that we are.

[A]

We are curating this playlist, and it goes so fucking hard.

[B]

It's wild.

[A]

It's very distinguishable. Who picked what song. And it goes. Again, it goes harder than any other playlist that I am aware of.

[B]

It is a wild playlist.

[A]

I got out of breath earlier dancing to one of the songs she did fell onto my chest.

[B]

That is 100% the truth. Mikey threw a wig on and was dancing. It was pretty intense.

[A]

I can't laugh too hard. I don't. Oh, yeah, it's my case. Today we're doing part two of Patty. So this one's, like, a little bit of a shorter one, but I had to break it in a certain way. But before we get into everything, I just want to say sorry, because my voice might be, like, a little weird.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Allergies.

[B]

It's probably allergies.

[A]

Or if it's all the lolling, perhaps.

[B]

It could be a mixture.

[A]

It's just a little bit weird, just so you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And.

[B]

And before we get into Patty, we just wanted to quickly say, because, you know, school is starting for a lot of parents and kids and all that fun stuff, but it started off really poorly because we are so sorry about the. The school shooting at the Annunciation Catholic School in Minneapolis. Horrifying.

[A]

They were literally.

[B]

Two kids were killed. Seventeen, I believe, are injured. Couple in critical.

[A]

Seventeen were injured. And I think it was 14. Of those, 17 are children.

[B]

Yeah. And two of them are in critical condition. It's fucking terrible.

[A]

The kids killed, they said, were 8 and 10.

[B]

8 and 10 babies. And they were only in school for a couple of days. I mean, the school year hasn't even started for all of us.

[A]

The mass itself was celebrating the first week of school that they were.

[B]

It's horrifying. We need to do better than thoughts and prayers. We need to do something. So contact whoever you can contact to get some shit moving, because this just can't stand anymore. This is insane. It. It's just so upsetting. And also, teachers need raises. We need to pay teachers better. What are we doing here? That's what you said.

[A]

That's what we were talking about earlier. And Elena said she's like, we're asking so much of teachers.

[B]

We are literally asking teachers, Like, I, When I sit in front of my kids, teachers at like, before school starts for, like the parent teacher thing, I. Every time I'm like, I am asking you to throw yourself in front of my child to be a human skill in that. In the unthinkable event. Yeah, Like, I'm literally, I'm asking you this right now.

[A]

And the wild thing is that, like, that we are putting so much faith in these teachers and they're putting that on themselves.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, they're willing. They're doing it.

[A]

That's the thing. They're willing to be in shit.

[B]

And they're often treated like shit. And it's like, I'm. I mean, we've been very lucky that we've had amazing teachers. Like, my kids have had just the best teachers.

[A]

They really have.

[B]

And. But it's like, it just makes me. I can't believe what we ask of them and what they have to take on. And then they're given just fucking shit. All bare classrooms and they have to pay out of their own pocket.

[A]

And they do, and they do to.

[B]

Make it colorful, to make it fun, to make it engaging. Like, that's why we were just talking about it every now. And like, whenever I see, like on TikTok sometimes, if I see a teacher talking about, like their wish lists, a lot of times they have Amazon wish lists or something. And when I can, I try to buy off of the wish list because I just, I can't. I can't believe that teachers have to pay out of pocket to do anything for their students.

[A]

So many other jobs, you are given the tools to do that job.

[B]

Just given a bare room. That's wild. So we just want to say, our listeners who are teachers, if you have wish lists and you need them cleared, you need some stuff off of them, please send them in to us. You can send them to morbidpodcastmail.com we obviously can't clear everybody's list, but we would love to start trying to help out as much as we can because fuck, that sucks. And as soon as we've barely started the school year and there's already a school shooting, it really makes it hit a little harder how much faith and how much pressure we are putting on teachers, especially parents. We should all be sitting there thinking about it, that as we send our kid off to school, we're assuming that that teacher is willing to risk their entire self for your kid. And they will. Yeah, we've seen it. Time and time again. Yeah. So, yeah, if you wanna send us your lists, morbidpodcastmail.com just put in the title that it's a teacher list, so. Yeah, so do that. We'll do our best. We wanna help you guys out. Teachers, we love you. And I know that that's a horrifying beginning to the school year for teachers and parents alike. So thinking of all of you in solidarity.

[A]

Look out for each other, y'.

[B]

All. Yeah, for sure.

[A]

All right, so with all of that being said, I think it is time to get into Patty Part 2.

[B]

Patty Part 2.

[A]

Patty Pot 2. This is like a little bit of a shorter part two. And I didn't do that for any other reason other than the way that the story goes. There's so much that happens.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you kind of just have to break at certain points.

[B]

Yeah. Like, just so you can understand the whole narrative.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. So I think this is probably going to end up being four parts, unless it's just a really long part three. But I'm. I think I'm leaning towards four parts just to make it all kind of palatable. Okay, so just to go over part one really quickly, we covered a lot of the background of this era that we're in. Well, you know, like very late 60s, early 70s, mostly. How the youths of the time were trying to start a revolution. Okay. Revolution. Yeah. For change. And how some groups were doing it very peacefully, very Kumbaya. Like.

[B]

Hell, yeah.

[A]

And others, the Simbiones Liberation army, they were doing things like kidnapping Patty Hurst.

[B]

Yeah. Little bit different stuff like that.

[A]

Yeah. So if for some reason you're just tuning into part two and skipping part one, that's crazy. What are you doing?

[B]

I'll help you out. That's reckless.

[A]

Patty Hurst was low key. The daughter belonging to one of the richest families in the world. So that wasn't awesome that she got kidnapped.

[B]

No.

[A]

We ended part one with Patty's family getting a tape from her where she basically said that her kidnappers hadn't hurt her that badly. They were being nice enough. She just asked her parents to comply with their wishes. And Patty's family, her dad, especially Randolph Hurst, set up that food distrib distribution center. And all of them around California just trying to comply with the demands of the sla. So let's get into part two.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

While Randolph Hurst and FBI agents were working to get Patty back from the sla, Patty herself was going through a pretty emotionally trying time and a pretty bizarre experience of her own.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At first, the SLA was keeping her inside of a closet.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

This closet was six and a half feet deep, a little over two feet wide and eight feet high.

[B]

What?

[A]

And she was there like, 24, seven for a while.

[B]

What the.

[A]

At night, she slept on a dirty foam mattress that they had cut to fit into the closet.

[B]

Oh. Yeah.

[A]

So at all times, she was in total darkness. And she barely remember two and a half feet wide. So she didn't even have enough room to turn around most of the time.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

The claustrophobia must have been next level. Now, things obviously weren't quite as dire as she had worried when she was thinking about the kidnapping of Barbara Markle, who was buried alive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in the pitch dark of that closet, it was kind of hard to tell the difference.

[B]

Yeah, it's pretty similar.

[A]

Yeah. So she was doing her best to stay calm, but the early days were very scary. Eventually, though, she kind of started tapping into the sounds around her. She was trying to listen to the voices of her kidnappers when they were talking near the closet and trying to figure out what the was going on here. And whenever she was outside the closet for any reason, they kept her blindfolded so she couldn't see their faces. But she really tapped into listening and realized that there were big differences in dealing with each of them.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

Like Donald DeFreeze, for example. He was the head of the operation. He was commanding. He was gruff. He didn't. There didn't seem to be, like, a lot of intelligence or compassion behind his personality. He was just intense. In the early days, he told Patty that she had been, quote, arrested, not kidnapped.

[B]

No.

[A]

Because her father was a corporate enemy of the people.

[B]

Do you know what arrested means?

[A]

He had a different definition.

[B]

Do you know what kidnapped means? No, it's definitely kidnapping, sir.

[A]

What?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. When he was talking about the mission and the message, it didn't really seem to Patty like he was experienced in any way at what he was doing. It just kind of sounded like he was a kid playing war.

[B]

Yeah, it does sound like that. Yeah.

[A]

Some of the other members, they seemed to Patty entirely out of place among the more hardened members, like Bill Harris, the one who had grabbed her hand.

[B]

I was gonna say. Yeah.

[A]

He spoke in a very soft, generally respectful tone. And he and a few of the other in the group reminded Patty actually, of kids that she went to school with. It was like these kids, like, the softer ones, had gotten caught up in the movement and things had gone too far, and now they didn't know how to get out.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

But even though she was like, okay, these people are like, you know, kind of like peers, and it seems like they're a little lost here, it was still a serious situation that wasn't lost on her.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

She didn't know a lot about these people, but she did know that they claimed responsibility for the murder of Margus Foster. So that was reason enough to take them seriously.

[B]

Yeah. That's terrifying. Yeah.

[A]

So in the early days, Donald DeFreeze and some of the others were really trying to interrogate her about her dad. Dad's financial situation. And they wanted to know about, like, his business dealings, what was going on.

[B]

There, which it's like, how much does she actually know?

[A]

Well, like, exactly, you know, so she didn't know a lot about. Yeah, she didn't really know a ton about where her fan. She knew that they were wealthy, but.

[B]

She knew, like, generally what. Maybe what he does, but, like, kind of.

[A]

But she didn't know, like, where everything came from.

[B]

No.

[A]

And she, like, she was like, yeah, I think we're richer than most people. But she was like, I don't know how we spend it. I don't know. His colleagues. I don't know a lot about this. So they were getting frustrated with her. And also, Pat, it was like Patty was like, why are you asking me all of this? Like, this is very strange and bizarre.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what was more disturbing was the fact that DeFreeze and others already seemed to know a lot. Like, they were asking her questions, but at the same time, it seemed like they had info not just about her father or her family wealth, but about her specifically. A few days into keeping her, Patty was asking when she was going to be able to go home. And Donald DeFreeze just looked at her and was like, what? You want to go home for your birthday?

[B]

Ew.

[A]

Like. But knew it was her birthday.

[B]

Yeah. I hate that a lot. Yeah.

[A]

Scary. She said later that she remembered this as one of the most chilling moments.

[B]

Of the whole thing because for so many reasons. For one, he knows it's your birthday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then two, just being like, oh, you want to go home for your birthday? Like, that's so dehumanizing. Like, you just don't give a shit.

[A]

He definitely did it. And also, it made her realize, too, that she wasn't just the victim of a random kidnapping. This was coordinated. This was well researched, and her kidnappers knew way more than she thought they did. Now, within a few days, it occurred to everybody in the safe house that not Knowing how long these negotiations were going to go on with the Hearst family, they couldn't just keep Patty in that small ass closet with no contact with anybody for the whole duration of her captivity. So instead, Donald defries kind of put together this schedule where only three members would engage with her. That way she couldn't identify the entire group because this is a big group. He knew that he didn't have any kind of rapport with her. Like, they weren't driving at all. I wonder why. Yeah, it's crazy. So he assigned Nancy Lang, Angela Atwood, and Willie Wolf, which is an iconic name, I have to say.

[B]

Willie Wolf is a great name.

[A]

Willie Wolf.

[B]

I kind of wanted Bill Harris to be in there.

[A]

I. I too was.

[B]

I felt like it would be a good fit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But Willie Wolf, Willy Wolf stepped in.

[A]

So they were kind of like her handlers. And he said he figured Donald DeFreeze, since the three of them came from upper middle class backgrounds, they would be better positioned to get information out of her. She could kind of relate to them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there was some thought. Thought so in the days that followed, she didn't really have a lot of communication with her kidnappers. Most of the time that she did spend, that was spend with them was just to record the communications that they were sending to her family and to the radio station. But when Patty wasn't making recordings, she was just sitting there listening in on conversations between everybody. Most of what she was saying in recordings was written down for her to say. But as she was doing more and more of these recordings and listening in more, she was starting to understand what they were saying. And sometimes she was starting to understand why they were saying it.

[B]

Like, she.

[A]

She got the message.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Which is a little scary.

[B]

Yeah. That's interesting.

[A]

Yeah. And with each communication that the family was getting, that the radio stations were getting, there seemed to be a noticeable shift in her voice. It was something like confidence. Like she didn't seem as scared to be being held anymore. And it almost seemed like she was starting to agree with what they were.

[B]

Oh, damn. Like what Their whole message behind what they were doing was. Yeah.

[A]

Author Jeffrey Toobin pointed out, and we linked his book in the first set of show notes, and we'll link it in this one, too. But he said it was kind of an impatience in her voice. He said, not with her captors, but with her parents. Ooh, yeah.

[B]

That would be scary. Yeah. Especially for her parents to hear. Like, they probably notice.

[A]

Yeah. That's the thing. Oh, they definitely did. So in time, the Rigid schedule and the structure of the only three members handling Patty started to relax because she's spending more time there. They can probably see that she's starting to kind of hear what they're saying. No one lost sight of the larger goals. And nobody forgot that Patty was captive. But it also at the same time was kind of impossible to keep up these prison esque formalities, no matter how much Donald Defries thought that he was running a military operation. Thought so.

[B]

By.

[A]

By early March, after a full month being held captive, another recording was delivered to the Hearst home. And this one, it didn't seem actually like the message was written out. It seemed like Patty herself was talking and she sounded gen. Genuinely frustrated with her parents. She told them, I don't believe you're doing anything at all.

[B]

Oh, that would kill me.

[A]

And also they were.

[B]

That's the thing. They were trying as hard as they possibly could.

[A]

In part one, we talked about how her father Randolph hear, set up those food distribution centers and his organization pin people in need immediately.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And how like, obviously it didn't go perfectly fine with the startup, but not a lot does. It never does with a startup. And it went pretty well, all things considered.

[B]

Just being her parents and going through this ordeal, first of all. And then hearing her say, I don't think you're doing anything at all. That would kill me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like knowing my, my child thought I wasn't doing anything to save them. Might kill me where I stand.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like I think I would die.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel that would be gut wrenching.

[A]

I feel so hard for her parents.

[B]

Yeah. That's just gut wrenching to see. I don't believe that you're doing anything at all.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That would ruin my entire ex. I would never recover from that.

[A]

I don't know how you, how you listen to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And also know that you're doing everything you possibly can.

[B]

Yeah. That's the thing. Like, you know, but she doesn't.

[A]

Why isn't she realizing and like, are they.

[B]

And why doesn't she believe that I would do anything to save her? Like, did I not instill that into her enough?

[A]

Well, then they're probably looking back on the relationship they did have with her where, you know, she was the tougher one of the five daughters.

[B]

Did we somehow make her think we wouldn't move like, you know, mountains for her?

[A]

Exactly, exactly. I think there was probably a lot of guilt. I was just gonna say a lot.

[B]

Of guilt ruminating, which, like, not, you know, not valid guilt as in, like they did Something wrong, but, like, they're probably putting it on themselves.

[A]

Exactly. So by that point, the restrictions that the SLA placed on Patty were pretty much gone altogether. There was never any question of the power dynamics at play, and she didn't forget that she was a prisoner. But in time, she started to see her kidnappers as something more and something different than a group of terrorists, which is what they were. But there wasn't a lot else to do other than sit around and talk. So Patty and the SLA members, several of them in particular, would have these long conversations. They just sit around and talk about all kinds of it. And they ended up finding out that they had a lot more in common than they originally thought they did. A lot of these people came from educated backgrounds. They had interests in art, in literature, in politics, obviously. And she did too. Not really in politics, but in, like, arts and literature.

[B]

And when you start feeling like you're connecting on a human level with people, it's hard to. To see anything else and to see.

[A]

This situation for what it is.

[B]

That's the thing. Like she's sitting there genuinely connecting with other human beings. That's really hard to then be like, oh, wait, these are bad people.

[A]

You broke in the middle of the night and carried me away and shoved me in a trunk.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, kept me in a closet for how long? And it's like you just start seeing people that you get along with and that you probably genuinely are like, fuck, we might have hung out. Well, that's like outside of this whole thing.

[A]

That must be so weird because I do feel like whenever we talk about a kidnapping situation, it's usually a younger person being kidnapped by, like, an older person.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In this case, these are her peers. These are her peers. Exactly. And they're from the same area, they're from the same backgrounds, and now they.

[B]

Have the same interests.

[A]

That's the thing. Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, sometimes, especially when it came to Donald DeFreeze, though, he would kind of talk at Patty rather than have a conversation with her. He would just ramble on about revolution and the message and what they had to do and yada yada. But other times when she was talking to the other members, like we were just saying, it felt like she was chatting with her friends or at the very least, just well meaning activists.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And after a while, she realized that it didn't seem like they actually had any intention of killing her. And she thought they genuinely just wanted her father's money to help the poor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it wasn't long before she started gaining a lot of new perspectives on the world. From the first day she was born, she had spent every day in luxury. She really didn't have to struggle for much. Like, obviously, she had her struggles, but she could have whatever she wanted in a material sense. And the people around her at school, at home, at her father's company, they all lived similarly to that, too. And even though a lot of the members of the SLA had lived, like I've been saying, these somewhat privileged lives, they still knew that the same was not true for everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially when it came to minorities to the poor. And they felt, and oftentimes were correct, that these people were put down and ignored by capitalist systems.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So talks like that made Patti think about Steve. Remember her fiance Steve?

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

She was already initially angry with on the night of the kidnapping.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But at one point, she told Willie Wolf that even before the kidnapping, she was thinking of breaking things off with Steve.

[B]

Oh, damn.

[A]

Which I do believe because they were already struggling before they got engaged. She said she saw him as too rigid, too proper. It bothered her that he seemed kind of incapable of just taking things on as they came.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he needed to schedule everything up. And obviously there was the night of the kidnapping when, rather than trying to stop them from taking her, she felt he told them, take anything you want. Which kind of only confirmed her growing feelings of resentment.

[B]

Yeah, I could see that.

[A]

It's a tough situation, I was gonna say.

[B]

And I think maybe he was being like, take anything you want.

[A]

Just things.

[B]

Things like, don't take my fiance. You can't really get mad at him for that. For being like, take anything in this house you want. Just don't hurt her.

[A]

I guess also, on the other side of it, if I had spent, like, a month in a closet after being kidnapped, and like, my man's hadn't really, like, done a whole lot, I might be a little angry.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I mean, I can't imagine this situation.

[A]

So you're not in your right frame of mind.

[B]

No, I would say definitely not.

[A]

But unlike her relationship with Steve, Patty was starting to find it a lot easier to talk to Willy Wolf. They would sit around the two of them and chat for hours about everything under the sun. She learned that, just like her, he came from a wealthy family. He had actually grown up in, like, the high society of Connecticut, which is wild, because now he's literally in a liberation army.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah. He knew what it was like to go to boarding schools just like she did. How hard it was to Feel like you could never meet your parents expectations, like, you know, rich kid problems. And he also shared Patty's love of animals and being outdoors.

[B]

Oh, cute.

[A]

Now, his path to radicalization, which is kind of fun.

[B]

Radicalization.

[A]

I just like that word.

[B]

The path to radicalization.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's fun to say. I don't know. But his path to radicalization came in 1973, and that was his first year of grad school. He accepted a position as a tutor at a prison, which is where he met Ramiro and Little, those two SLA members who were arrested and serving time in Part one. And then they kidnapped Patty and were demanding Romero and Little's release.

[B]

Oh, damn.

[A]

Remember?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So now we're going back a little bit. This is where Willie met them.

[B]

Oh, they were in prison.

[A]

They got out at a certain point because they escaped. Remember?

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Speaking of prison. Yeah. One of my dumb.

[A]

I'm so sorry. Starting off a conversation speaking of speaking of prison is diabolic.

[B]

I just had to take this little side tangent because you guys will think it's funny.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Blanche, my dog is. She's like a counter surfer. She always jumps up to try to eat food. We cannot get her to stop. Sidney.

[A]

She's living her best life, but Blanche just.

[B]

She's a dingus. And so the other day she went to go grab something off the counter, and John just looked at her and said. Cause she did get something.

[A]

She got a whole waffle.

[B]

She did. She got a whole waffle. But we got it back to worry. Like, we. We got rid of it, but she.

[A]

Got like a bite.

[B]

But John just looked at her and said, prison, prison. And it was the funniest thing in the entire world. And now every time she jumps up, we're just saying prison, hoping that that will be a command that makes her stop.

[A]

Wouldn't it be so funny if what you had to say to her to get her to get off the counter was prison? Yeah, prison, Prison, prison.

[B]

Now we're trying it. Prison, Blanche.

[A]

Prison blanch. I witnessed that happen, and I almost cried. I was laughing so hard.

[B]

I thought that was a fun Little.

[A]

Out of absolutely nowhere, John just goes and he said it. So exacerbated. Just like prison. He was just like, prison, Blanche.

[B]

Prison.

[A]

So, yeah, speaking of prison, they were in prison and, you know, William was working there.

[B]

Prison.

[A]

And they started to talk to Willie about, you know, their message, their views on politics, the current state of the world, and yada, yada, yada, they were getting closer and closer until eventually one day Woolly found himself smuggling in books about the revolution for them. And before long, he was a radicalized, full fledged member of the SLA play.

[B]

Wow. Yeah, that escalated quickly.

[A]

Yeah. From. From prison tutor to.

[B]

To full fledged.

[A]

Liberation army. So that's good. So while Patty was getting to know her captors on a personal level, her dad was doing an investigation of his own by holding regular meetings with Clifford Death Row Jefferson.

[B]

Oh, Clifford Death Row. I forgot about him. Old Death Row.

[A]

You can't forget about Clifford Death Row.

[B]

Jefferson cannot forget about old Death Row.

[A]

And you never. You never hear the last of Death Row Jefferson. Yeah, well, so he. So I feel so bad for her father that he's just like a media magnet. Like.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and he's just out here talking to Death Row Jefferson.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, and other incarcerated SLA members. It's really rough because, remember when the SLA was created, they. They like, reached out to a lot of imprisoned people and had them join, which was a little. Little cuckoo nuts.

[B]

Little cuckoo nuts.

[A]

I don't know how much help they were going to be. I don't know.

[B]

Who knows?

[A]

But so now Randolph is just having these meetings, and he thought originally that Death Row Jefferson was the leader of the group, mostly because Death Row Jefferson himself also thought that I was gonna.

[B]

Say, because Death Row Jefferson told him, bro.

[A]

Exactly. So is that so Randolph is sitting here like, okay, great. I'm talking to the head guy in charge. Like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna get some movement here.

[B]

Yeah. Who's not gonna think that a guy named Death Row Jefferson is not the leader of whatever group you're talking about?

[A]

If your name is Death Row Jefferson, I believe you're the leader of all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'll.

[B]

I'll. Whatever you tell me you're the leader of, I'll just probably assume you are.

[A]

I'll do what I can to make things happen, to do your bidding. You know, it's fine. So he hoped. Randolph hoped that he might convince Death Row Jefferson to demand the release of his daughter. And as a result. I'm never gonna stop saying this.

[B]

It never sounds right.

[A]

Dave was writing Jefferson in the notes, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. So as a result, Death Row Jefferson, Little and Ramiro and other incarcerated SLA members started sending letters to the press indicating that because Randolph was complying with the demands, Patty would be released very soon. And by that point, the organization that Patty's family had set up, that I was just talking about, pin, or People in Need, they made their fifth and Final food distribution per the terms of their agreement. So one way or another, the situation had to come to.

[B]

Yeah, they did what they were asked to do.

[A]

They did everything they were asked to do.

[B]

They did. They did the impossible.

[A]

They really did. So by the beginning of April, Patty had been in captivity for almost two months at that point. And aside from just the small number of recordings, nobody had any idea what she was going through while she was being held.

[B]

No. And they can, and her parents can only think of the worst imaginable.

[A]

Exactly. But finally, on April 2nd, KSAN radio in San Francisco got another communication from the SLA, and this one had specific details regarding Patty's release.

[B]

Release.

[A]

It was finally happening. The statement indicated that Patty would be released from captivity within the next 72 hours. And the letter should have been a cause for celebration. But a second communication, this one in Patty's voice, a recording in Patty's voice, came just one day later. And let's just say that if there was any celebration, it was short lived.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

So on April 3, just one day after the letter, talking all about Patty's release, police KPFA radio got a recording in Patty's voice. Unlike the other recordings where she sounded concerned in the beginning, eventually maybe a little frustrated, this voice on the recording was confident and firm, and the message was unexpected and straight up bizarre.

[B]

Oh, boy, she said.

[A]

Mom, dad. Tell the poor and oppressed people of this nation what the corporate state is about to do. Warn black and poor people that they are about to be murdered down to the last man, woman and child. Tell the public that the energy crisis is nothing more than a means to get public approval for a massive program to build nuclear power plants all over the nation. Tell the people that the entire corporate state is, with the aid of its massive power supply, about to totally automate the entire industrial state to the point that in the next five years all that will be needed is a small class of button pushers. Tell the people, dad, that the removal of expendable access, the removal of unneeded people has already started. I have been given the choice of one, being released in a safe area or two, joining the forces of the Symbionese Liberation army and fighting for my freedom and the freedom of all oppressed people. I have chosen to stay and to fight. I have been given the name Tanya after a comrade who fought alongside Che in Bolivia. It is in the spirit of Tanya that I say patria omerte venseremos, which translates to homeland or death. We shall overcome.

[B]

Come. Whoa. That's Different.

[A]

Super duper different.

[B]

That's different.

[A]

And not what her parents expected.

[B]

Imagine being, like, so excited that you did all the things and you've been working so hard for two months to get your child back.

[A]

I. No, that's. That's what we really need to focus on for a second here. 60 days.

[B]

And they were working hard to get her back and.

[A]

And realizing, okay. Because as every single day went on, okay. She. And we. We're getting these tapes. She's still alive. She's saying, they're not hurting her.

[B]

We're.

[A]

We're gonna get her back. Maybe we'll get her back. And then I'm sure they had their bad days where they thought they would never get her back. And they go through all of this emotional turmoil for 60 days, and they get a communication, she's coming back, she's gonna be released. Awesome. And then one day later, she has completely flopped and is joining the army that kidnapped her in the middle of the night.

[B]

Have no words for it. Like, that would just be shattering.

[A]

Also, this is the early 70s. So you weren't just calling up your therapist on speed dial?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, how do you cope with that?

[B]

Like, this is just. That's shattering.

[A]

That's when you literally sit in your living room and stare at a wall for seven hours and just think, how has my life come to this?

[B]

Truly?

[A]

How is this my. That's one of those moments you and I were talking about the other day when you're just like, how is this my life?

[B]

How is this my. What do. Why is this happening? Like, what's going on? Why? Yeah, like, just, like, what I. I.

[A]

Feel for her family.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So for those working the case and those who had been close to Patty, the latest recording was just about the last thing any of those people would have expected. She obviously had that rebellious streak in her teen years, and she loved going against the grain. But this was a lot more serious than dating an older man or messing around with the nuns at boarding school.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The SLA was a known terrorist organization. And don't forget, they had murdered one person.

[B]

That's the thing.

[A]

And she. She's saying she's joining forces with them, understands their message, and wants to be part of it. Like, damn, that's horrifying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So in a statement to the press, Randolph Hurst emphatically stated that he and his wife did not believe Patty had joined the group willingly. He said, we've had her for 20 years. They've had her 60 days. And I don't believe she's going to change her philosophy that quickly and that permanently. And I'll never believe it until she comes to me or her mother and is free to talk without any interference whatsoever at that time, if her choice is to become a member of an organization like this, we will still love her, and she's free to do whatever she wants.

[B]

I mean, that's some parent right there.

[A]

That's a dad.

[B]

That's on some dad just being like, I just want her to walk up to me and tell me with no interference, and then I will still love her. And she's free to do what. She's free to do what you want. She's an adult. I love her. Her.

[A]

Like. Like. Wow.

[B]

That's. Wow. Whoa. That's. That man loves his daughter. Wow.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, Obviously, in the 50 years since Patty's abduction, mental health professionals and law enforcement have come a long way, and we've learned a lot about how a person can basically end up brainwashed in a pretty short amount of time.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Radicalization can happen pretty quick if it's intense enough.

[A]

And, you know, she's sitting in a closet for a moment, and then she's around all of these people who are her, and she has. She's not talking to any outside forces, and it's just 24.

[B]

7 echo chamber of what they want her to hear, and they're, like, endearing themselves to her, Getting on a level, talking about literature and art with her. That's really gonna cement it right there.

[A]

Absolutely. So now we know. Know that she was most likely brainwashed. But in 1974, the idea that in just two months, somebody could trade in their own beliefs and morality and join in on a terrorist organization seemed impossible. People were like, what? Like, no.

[B]

Like, no, of course not. Yeah.

[A]

Patty clearly stated in her message, though. She said, I have never been forced to say anything on tape, Nor have I been brainwashed, drugged, tortured, hypnotized, or in any way confused. It's me the way I want it, the way I see it.

[B]

I mean, like, that's not all true. You were held in a closet for a little while.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

I don't think we should say that it was. It's all been great.

[A]

And I would probably think that you were confused when you.

[B]

Yeah. I would say that's pretty confusion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Especially since they were keeping a blindfold.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

And not letting you see where you were. And you were talking to.

[A]

Held in near total darkness for a long number of days.

[B]

That's pretty confusing. Yeah. In torture, I would think.

[A]

In My book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody has different books.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think you and I seem to have similar books.

[B]

Yeah, we have similar books. I think.

[A]

So we can agree on that.

[B]

But you can absolutely have your own book.

[A]

I think her book might have been different back then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I also think she was brainwashed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Personally. But the hearse and the FBI were convinced, much like myself, that Patty had been brainwashed into adopting the SLA's mission statement and that once she was free from their grip, she could finally realize the error of her ways.

[B]

But it would probably take take some time.

[A]

If you know anything about this story that's super duper correct.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it so is stuttle, you know.

[B]

Yeah. So you don't just snap out of that.

[A]

She sure didn't. And we're going to talk about that still. We're not done yet.

[B]

We're not done. Gator Light. From the makers of Gatorade, the specialized blend of five electrolytes and lower sugar. Gator Light hydrates fast to replace the electrolytes you lose in sweat. Gator Light made for rapid rehydration.

[A]

So it wasn't just the family and just the investigators that were very much caught off guard by Patty's statement and her. Her quote, unquote decision to join the sla, her friends and her fiance.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Also pretty shocked at the news of Tanya.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, that would be shocking.

[A]

You know, her newfound personality and totally, you know, self.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

According to friends, up until her kidnapping, Patty, quote, would have been totally bored by something like the sla. Totally bored. They said she, quote, intensely disliked rhetoric and stridency, especially in women, and had no sympathy for true believers.

[B]

Oh, my God. That's actually funny.

[A]

Just picture Emily Gilbert.

[B]

Yeah, that really is just like. Shut the.

[A]

Don't radicalize.

[B]

I'm bored by that.

[A]

That.

[B]

Don't radicalize me.

[A]

Gross. Ew. I. I dislike especially.

[B]

I have no sympathy for that. Yeah.

[A]

But in fact, as far as her friends and her fiance knew, she didn't even read the newspaper and wasn't even particularly interested in politics at all. Especially not the. The politics of Bolivia and Cuba, which.

[B]

Also makes her a perfect subject for radicalization.

[A]

She's got no.

[B]

She's uninformed as fuck. And when someone has nothing, no foundation for something, you get to build the foundation and then you get to build the whole house. And do you know how hard it is to knock down a house and.

[A]

The foundation when you also build it with shock and awe? And that's how you get to meet.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Tell them all these big Scary things.

[B]

You build that foundation strong.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. And that's why we should all be educated in politics.

[B]

Just saying.

[A]

So years later, when she published her own account of the abduction in the and her time spent in captivity, Patty detailed her full experience. And it put a lot of things into context, and it put her actions in a very different light. In addition to the long conversations where she learned about and, you know, occasionally absorbed the SLA's philosophies, there were other terrible, awful things that she went through during her time there, including coerced or forced sex, AKA rape, with at least two of the men in the group.

[B]

Yeah, differently.

[A]

Exactly. She had countless menacing interactions with Donald DeFreeze, which I can only imagine. Worse, beyond terrifying. But at that time, all the press and the public had to go by was what Patty and the others were saying in their communications. And those statements at that time were pretty direct. Because she had been brainwashed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whether anybody believed that she was being held against her will or not, she wasn't captive at this point. And by mid April, there wouldn't be much room left to doubt that. On the morning of April 15, Vincent Greeley, a security officer at a bank in San Francisco, had just unlocked the doors to the bank for the day. And he never even took notice of the small group of hippies standing around their car across the street.

[B]

Oh, no.

[A]

It was only about 45 minutes later that he saw them as Donald DeFreeze, Patty Hurst, Nancy Ling, Patricia Saltis, and Camila hall rushed into the bank with guns drawn.

[B]

So now she. She's just. She's in it.

[A]

She's in it. DeFreeze pointed his gun around the room and at all 18 members in the branch while he yelled to them, this is a hold up. The first who don't lay down on the floor gets shot in the head. Holy shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Obviously not wanting to get hurt, all the employees hit the deck.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And laid face down. But upstairs on the second floor, the bank manager, Jim Smith, was there and he heard all this wild ass noise, so he flipped on the switch that turned the security cameras on.

[B]

That's where you get those. Those pictures. If you Google Patty Hearst.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah. So with Nancy Ling and Patty Hearst controlling the crowd, the others jumped the counter and started filling their bags with cash from the drawers. Drawers. Just when they thought they had everything under control, though, two new customers entered the bank, completely unaware of what was going on. Caught off guard by their arrival, Nancy Ling swung around and just fired wildly in their direction. She hit One of the man. One of the men in the hand and the other in his rear.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And sent them scurrying back out the door toward the sidewalk.

[B]

They just come into the bank.

[A]

Yeah. So they just. She just shot two people.

[B]

Cool.

[A]

Despite Nancy's panic and wild firing, though, Patty seemed to be exhilarated by the experience and was literally wielding a machine gun in full view of the security camera, which, like you just said.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That single now iconic image of Patty carrying a machine gun would come to represent the entire story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the minds of America for decades to come, even now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People look at that in early, like, that's it.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So definitely Google that picture. If you haven't seen it, it's insane. So after cleaning out the drawers of cash, which back then was $10,660 in total, the group made their way toward the door with Patty shouting, this is Tanya. Patty Hurst. As they rushed outside of the bank.

[B]

That's just dumb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I. I'd be real with you. I'd be like, well, that was stupid. That was a dumb way to end it.

[A]

It was super duper dump. Outside, four other SLA members were waiting in the car. They all piled in, and they fled the scene back in the direction of their safe house. Later that afternoon, the press broke the story of the bank robbery, obviously, but there was no mention of Patty just yet. Instead, police focused on the organization and the professionalism of the robbers and all that. But the next morning, more news reports of the robbery started hitting, and this time, there wasn't a lot of attempt to minimize Patty's involvement and the likely motive behind the robbery. Captain Mortimer McHenry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everybody say that with me. One, two, three. Mortimer McKinry.

[B]

Yes. Correct.

[A]

Only choice in life was to become a police captain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or the President of the United States.

[B]

Something very impressive.

[A]

Mortimer is a great name. It also makes me think of Tensey Mortimer.

[B]

There you go. Another important character.

[A]

It's two ends of the spectrum.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

So, anyway, Mortimer McHenry told the press, we are discussing the possibility very thoroughly that this was a stage job to show off Patty Hearst as a member of their ranks.

[B]

No, that makes sense. Which, like, I can understand, like, why they would think that. Yeah, I.

[A]

It probably was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A good amount of the motive.

[B]

Like, why would they put her in that if they didn't want to show her off?

[A]

Exactly. You know, and why. And also, why would she scream. I was just gonna say it was me, Patty Hurst. Yeah, y'.

[B]

All. What up? Y' All Patty Hurst, Tanya in the house. And then she just leaves.

[A]

We got Patty Hurst on the track. Forget London, dude.

[B]

That just makes me think of. I can always bring it back to TV or Parks and Rec when the DJ blunts and he's like, tom Haverford is in the building.

[A]

Patty Hurst is in the building. Now she's leaving.

[B]

That's what it felt like. Dead. That's what I was like, that's dumb. No, it really was like, not dumb as in, like, oh, no, you're going to get caught.

[A]

It's like, no, that's just dumb. That's just a dumb thing.

[B]

I don't like that.

[A]

Like, stop it.

[B]

Like, hey. So I hate that.

[A]

It's Tom.

[B]

Foolery. It is buffoonery, Nonsense.

[A]

Ridiculousness. Ridiculous. So investigators were willing to acknowledge that Patty was in the bank at the time of the robbery, but they still weren't willing to rule out the possibility that she still might have been there against her wife will. And to back that up, it's a good point. An FBI agent pointed out that in the security camera footage, there's somebody right behind her holding a gun.

[B]

There sure is.

[A]

So it's like.

[B]

Like they've cropped a lot of times. You'll see that cropped photo of just her. Yeah. Standing there right behind her. In the full picture is a person in full get up wearing a. Using a gun.

[A]

And I'm pretty sure that's actually Donald defries.

[B]

So it's like.

[A]

So the leader of the sla.

[B]

Yeah. And the one that, like, scared the shit out of her the most. Exact.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So.

[A]

So. But regardless, U.S. attorney James Browning told the press if she was involved and the investigation shows that we're going to charge her as a bank robber.

[B]

I mean. Yeah.

[A]

Which. Yeah, you were there.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

So until that point, the only evidence that anybody had that Patty joined the SLA was her own voice on those recordings indicating as much. But the camera footage from the bank was starting to make things harder for her friends and family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even they were starting to wonder if she had really ingratiated herself into a terroristic group or a terrorist group.

[B]

Excuse me.

[A]

Randolph Hur said, it's something that I think is one of the most vicious things I have ever seen or ever had happen to me.

[B]

Damn. Like, that's so gut wrenching.

[A]

Imagine. And again, like, we're going to go through this. Your daughter's been held captive for 60 days. You think you're getting her back? She says, nah, I've joined this army. My name's Tanya. Now and then you see her holding a machine gun in full gear, in full like. Like, revolutionary garb, holding up a bank.

[B]

Yeah. And then she leaves being like, screaming.

[A]

Proudly that she's Tanya.

[B]

DJ Blunt is in the building. Like that. Direct quote, like, for the way he said that. For him to say, like, I think it's one of the most vicious things I have ever seen or ever had happen to me. Like, that is like seeing your child like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

After you've been trying so hard for months in like. Like, just devastated that they've been kidnapped. Yeah. Wondering what they're going through, trying to get them back. And then you see them like that. That must just be like, what do you even do?

[A]

Because that's.

[B]

How do you even grieve that?

[A]

Well, that's the thing. It's like you think of two possible outcomes. When I'm sure you're Like, I'm sure you think of two possible outcomes when your kid is kidnapped. One, you're going to get them back, hopefully. Or two, unfortunately, they will be killed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You never have it on your bingo card that they're going to join a terrorist organization. Technically, they'll be free, quote, unquote. But be become a part of this horrible thing.

[B]

Yeah. Like be indoctrinated into this awful.

[A]

I'm sure nobody ever saw that coming.

[B]

No.

[A]

But in the days that followed, the FBI released wanted posters featuring photos of everybody who was involved in the. In the bank robbery. But they were clear that unlike the others who were wanted for armed robbery, Patty was simply considered a material witness. At that time, between the news of the robbery, though, and the circulation of the posters, the public was starting to question the official narrative that Patty had been brainwashed and was being held against her will.

[B]

Yeah, I get why it's a little hard to.

[A]

Yeah. You see somebody holding a machine gun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In. In the middle of a bank robbery. Absolutely. And remember, that's not really something people were seeing all the time.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

So on April 20, honestly, that's not really something we see all the time now.

[B]

Yeah. Not bank robberies, not everyone.

[A]

Heiress being kidnapp. We don't see that a lot joining in on.

[B]

No.

[A]

Terrorist organizations. Like, that's not common.

[B]

No. For sure.

[A]

No. I think we can all say that with gusto. So on April 24, Patty herself chimed in on the question of her particip, Patricia pressure of her participation in the activities. And yet another recording.

[B]

What did she have to say about.

[A]

Her Patricia P. Her Patricia P. She said about my. Patricia Patient. About my participation she's like, greetings to the patient, April. This is Tanya. On April 15, my comrades and I expropriated the comrades for me. One thing, one thing about me is that I just think the word comrades is wild.

[B]

It's. Well, that's. It's the comrades for me that I'm.

[A]

Like.

[B]

What'S going on?

[A]

Friends, loved ones, on a guest. Comrades.

[B]

Like, when she said, like a former comrade, I was like, oh, no.

[A]

Yeah, where are we? Because she's using it in like the soldier term.

[B]

Yeah, it's not. Not like not feeling great.

[A]

Not like my. My good girl, my camaraderie.

[B]

Yeah, like Sabrina Carpenter. Her.

[A]

Yes, you know, exactly. So she. Anyway, she said, On April 15, my comrades and I expropriated $10,660 and 2 cents from the Sunset branch of Hibernia Bank. I was positioned so that I could hold the customers and bank personnel who were on the floor. My gun was loaded, and at no time did any of my comrades intentionally point their guns at me. I am obviously alive as. And well, as for being brainwashed, the idea is ridiculous to the point of being beyond belief. Belief to the. It's really not.

[B]

I don't know about that.

[A]

To those people who still believe that I am brainwashed or dead, I see no reason to further defend my position. I am a soldier in the people's army Patria omerte venceramos. Which is the whole thing that she said earlier.

[B]

And then she said, patty Hearst is leaving the building.

[A]

She said, DJ Blunts on the track.

[B]

It's never gonna get.

[A]

It's not now. So even still with that, there was still debate about whether or not she was willing to be part of this because it.

[B]

This is a multi layered onion here that I don't think will ever really be understood because it's like you can be brainwashed and still believe that you're not in the brainwashing. Like, you can still believe in. Like, that's kind of what brainwashing is all about, is making you believe that you believe the things that they want you to believe, which is brainwashing. It's a cult. So it's all a vicious cycle of like, yeah, she could be brainwashed and acting completely outside of herself, or she's brainwashed. She could be brainwashed and acting willfully because she believes the things she's been brainwashed by.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So there's so many different levels here.

[A]

It's an onion complexity. It really is an onion that it's.

[B]

Like, this is by no means in my personal opinion, a black and white no situation that we can just be like, nope, she was acting like this. And that's why, like, I think there's so many things going on here to.

[A]

Bring it back to the early days of morbid. It's an evil onion.

[B]

It is an evil onion. This whole thing.

[A]

Most evil onion is a very evil onion. So, yeah, like, people were like, I don't know what's going on here. Brainwashed. No, brainwashed.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Brainwashed. Brainwash.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

But her parents were still unconvinced, and they argued that she was suffering the effects of, quote, prolonged struggles, fatigue and demoralization, which I think they are very valid in that. And also, they know their daughter.

[B]

That's the thing. And also, yeah, prolonged stress, lack of sleep and demoralization. Being held in a closet, being raped. That'll do it. So it's like they are 100% correct in that assertion.

[A]

But by mid May, there would no longer be any doubt. And that we're going to talk about in part three.

[B]

Fuck.

[A]

We're going to talk about the events of mid May in part three.

[B]

This is a very interesting case. I knew the name Patty Hearst.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I knew the general, like, idea that there's like a Stockholm Sunder me kind of vibe to this.

[A]

I didn't know all the details.

[B]

I had no idea. I'd never read further into it, so I hadn't either. I'm now admonishing myself for not reading further into it, but.

[A]

Well, don't, because here.

[B]

Interesting. I know I'm finding it out in the best way possible.

[A]

Oh, my God. I love that.

[B]

This is very interesting.

[A]

I really.

[B]

And wow, I can't wait to see what happens next.

[A]

Stay tuned for part three. Go get your tickets for Go get your tickets. The second morbid show. Send us your teacher list. We're gonna do our best to work on those.

[B]

Go get the. The butcher game. It's out now.

[A]

You can put it in your back pocket.

[B]

You can. I demonstrated. So she literally did. It fits, dude. It's pretty great.

[A]

She put it in her pants. You should put it in your pockets.

[B]

But yeah, you'll want to keep up with the story because. Because, you know, because you want to keep up with that story.

[A]

You know that TikTok. You know that TikTok Trond right now that everybody's like, why do you write like you're running out of time? Alina writes like she's running out of time. Yeah.

[B]

That we need to do that trend.

[A]

I know I'd like to. You can be Alexander Hamilton.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

I'll be Eliza.

[B]

Eliza.

[A]

Okay. So we hope you keep listening.

[B]

And we hope you keep it weird.

[A]

Keep it as weird as us. We're so weird.

[B]

Yeah, we're so weird.

[A]

We're so random.

[B]

Goodbye, Sam. Sat Sam.