The Murder of Kitty Genovese

Summary

Morbid Podcast: The Murder of Kitty Genovese

Hosts: Ash Kelley & Alaina Urquhart
Date: January 19, 2026
Episode Theme: Exploring the truth behind the infamous murder of Kitty Genovese, the myths surrounding the case, and the reality of her life and tragic death, correcting decades of urban legend.

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Episode Overview

In this deeply-researched, emotionally charged, and occasionally lighthearted episode, Ash and Alaina unravel the story behind Kitty Genovese’s 1964 murder—an event that became a touchstone in American psychology, crime, and media history. The hosts dissect not only the crime itself, but the myths it spawned, particularly the idea that dozens of witnesses stood by and did nothing, birthing the so-called “bystander effect.” Through exploring Kitty’s life, relationships, and the aftermath, Ash and Alaina question how the case has been presented and move to set the record straight.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Hosts’ Mood & the Episode’s Purpose

• Ash and Alaina open with banter about self-care, teen nostalgia, and their respective mornings, setting a warm and conversational tone before transitioning to the episode’s heavy subject matter.
• Alaina: “Maybe you're starting your day with us right now. And you're like, wow, this is ridiculous.” (09:48) This helps lighten the mood before turning to the sensitive story ahead.

2. Who Was Kitty Genovese? [11:14–19:00]

• Background & Personality
  • Katherine “Kitty” Genovese, born in 1935 in Brooklyn, was the eldest of five, described as bright-eyed, chatty, charismatic, and creative.
  • Lived in a cramped Brooklyn apartment, her family later relocated to Connecticut after witnessing violence, but Kitty stayed in NYC, seeking independence and freedom:
    • “I feel free in New York. I'm alive here.” (15:19)
• Early Adulthood & Identity
  • Moved through various jobs: secretary, waitress, hostess, bartender (where she thrived).
  • Brief, unfulfilling marriage to appease her Catholic parents, annulled in two months.

3. Kitty’s Private Life: Love & Identity [19:00–28:54]

• Relationship with Marianne
  • Kitty was a lesbian at a time when coming out could mean losing everything:
    • “In the late 1950s, early 1960s, coming out as a lesbian would have had serious consequences.” (19:10)
  • Met Marianne Zalonko at a Greenwich Village gay bar; formed a deep, happy relationship, moved in together.
    • Marianne: “We just hit it off. We meshed. I'm very quiet, and she talked a lot. We both had struggles with our sexuality, but we had a quick bond.” (20:48)
  • Built a cozy, artsy home and social circle in Queens, living “an idyllic life bubble together.” (28:31)
• Family Reactions
  • Initially accepted Marianne as “a friend,” but post-murder, Kitty’s family distanced themselves from Marianne due to homophobia.
    • “Later, after Kitty's death, their attitude towards Marianne changed... at the funeral, they refused to acknowledge her.” (22:37)

4. The Night of the Murder [30:04–34:41]

• Attack on March 13, 1964
  • After work, Kitty parked her car and walked to her apartment via a dark alley. Unbeknownst to her, she was followed by Winston Mosley.
  • Initial attack: stabbed twice in the back. Her screams woke neighbors, one of whom yelled from his window, scaring off the assailant temporarily.
    • “She shouted, oh my God, he stabbed me. Please help.” (31:10)
  • Ten minutes later, Mosley returned, found Kitty by the locked apartment door, and stabbed her repeatedly, ultimately causing fatal lung injuries.
    • Sophia Farrar, a neighbor, rushed to Kitty, cradling her and comforting her as she died. (34:41)
      • Sophia: “I only hope that she knew it was me, that she wasn’t alone.” (34:45)

5. The Aftermath: Misplaced Blame & Myths [35:05–41:06]

• Law Enforcement Missteps
  • Neighbors called the police, but lacking a 911 system and miscommunication led to slow, low-priority response (over 40 minutes delay).
  • Police and media quickly targeted Marianne, investigating her harshly—focusing on her sexuality rather than the actual crime:
    • “It eventually became clear... the detectives were more interested in her relationship with Kitty than finding the man responsible for murdering her.” (39:42)
  • Marianne was harassed for 6 hours and pressured into disclosing their relationship.

6. Break in the Case: Arrest of Winston Mosley [41:39–47:12]

• Mosley’s Arrest
  • A neighbor, Raul Cleary, noticed Mosley robbing a house days after the murder. He disabled Mosley’s car and alerted the police, leading to Mosley’s arrest. (42:07)
  • During interrogation, Mosley confessed to Kitty’s murder and others, showing chilling calm:
    • Det. Carroll: “No, you got those cuts from Kitty Genovese when you were putting the knife in…”
      • Mosley, with a smile: “Okay. I killed her.” (44:28)
  • Later confessed to additional murders, citing “urges to kill and rape.”

7. The Media Narrative & The Myth of Urban Apathy [49:57–61:42]

• New York Times Article
  • A March 27, 1964 article by Martin Gansberg—fed misinformation by the NYPD—declared 37 (later cited as 38) witnesses saw the murder and did nothing.
    • This fueled the popular “bystander effect” theory taught in both psychology and criminal justice for decades.
    • “Gansberg’s article... ignored most of the facts of Kitty’s murder and instead focused on a misunderstanding of the reactions from her neighbors.” (51:16)
    • Later shown to be massively exaggerated and inaccurate.
• Rosenthal’s Apathy-Driven Agenda
  • NYT’s Abe Rosenthal openly admitted decades later, “I was interested only in the manner of her dying... it talks to us. Not about her... but about ourselves.” (55:21)
    • Ash, shocked: “I feel like he hates women. I’m just getting woman hater vibes.” (60:14)
  • The media’s chosen framing prioritized “urban apathy” over Kitty’s real story.
• The Facts: What Actually Happened
  • Multiple neighbors called the police; some intervened as best as they could; Sophia Farrar comforted Kitty in her last moments.
  • The narrative of callous inaction was built on rumor, police cover, and editorial agenda.

8. Correcting the Narrative: The Genovese Family’s Quest [63:25–65:54]

• Bill Genovese’s Documentary ‘The Witness’
  • Kitty’s brother, Bill, spent years researching and producing a documentary to set the record straight:
    • “The most fundamental thing was that the 38 eyewitness story and three attacks facts was not true.” (64:05)
    • Much relief found in learning that Kitty was not ignored and was comforted as she died.
      • Bill: “My only regret is that my parents were not able to understand that... they would have been somewhat relieved to have known that somebody was there.” (65:02)
• Marianne’s Legacy
  • Marianne built a life and career, eventually retiring with a partner. She spoke for the first time in 2004 about her relationship with Kitty, expressing they would have been happy and likely still together had Kitty lived.

9. Reflections and Takeaways [68:09–70:45]

• Alaina and Ash reflect on the lasting impact of the case—not just on Kitty’s loved ones, but on society—but urge listeners to remember the kindness and connection shown by some neighbors.
  • Alaina: “Sometimes people are great… Sometimes that is true.”
  • Ash: “When there is an instance of connection, let's expose that for what it is. Let's like, hold that dear, not try to flip it on its head.” (70:23)
• Both hosts express admiration for Kitty and Marianne, imagining what their creative, cozy, loving life could have been.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I feel free in New York. I’m alive here.” – Kitty, relayed by Alaina (15:19)
• “We were lesbians.” – Marianne, after six hours of interrogation (40:15)
• “Okay. I killed her.” – Winston Mosley, during police interrogation (44:28)
• “I was interested only in the manner of her dying. That is the power of the Genovese matter. It talks to us, not about her... but about ourselves.” – Abe Rosenthal, NYT (55:21)
• “My only regret is that my parents were not able to understand that was the case. They would have been, I’m sure, somewhat relieved to have known that somebody was there.” – Bill Genovese (65:02)
• “When there is an instance of connection, let's expose that for what it is. And let's, let's, like, hold that dear, not try to flip it on its head.” – Ash (70:23)

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Important Timestamps

• Kitty’s background & early adulthood: 11:14–19:00
• Kitty and Marianne’s relationship: 19:00–28:54
• The night of the murder: 30:04–34:41
• Police failings & harassment of Marianne: 35:05–41:06
• Neighbor disables Mosley’s car, arrest: 42:07–44:28
• Mosley’s confession: 44:28–47:12
• Debunking the bystander myth: 49:57–61:42
• Setting the record straight / family’s quest: 63:25–65:54
• Hosts’ final reflections: 68:09–70:45

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Conclusion

This episode thoughtfully dismantles decades-old myths about Kitty Genovese’s murder, shifting the focus from societal apathy to the person behind the headlines—a vibrant, loving woman whose life was cut short but whose legacy lives on through those who loved her and through efforts to correct the narrative. Alaina and Ash’s blend of scholarly research and heartfelt empathy reveal a story not of urban indifference, but of human connection, media responsibility, and the importance of seeking the truth.

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Final Thought

“Sometimes people are terrible, but sometimes people will surprise you.”
— Alaina (70:12)

Transcript

[Ash]

I'm back. I'm really back. School spirits returned. Why am I here? Not dead, right?

[Elena]

Disruption on this campus will not be tolerated on January 28th.

[Ash]

I look crazy. It's because that's how I feel.

[Elena]

I don't know how to live in two worlds. Secrets lurk. There are others beneath the surface. They're not like us. We need to get out of here. Now. School Spirits new season streaming January 28th only on Paramount.

[Ash]

Plus, you can prepare for almost anything, except when a cold or flu hits you like an unexpected plot twist. Alka Seltzer plus effervescent tablets are designed to deliver fast cold and flu relief. Just drop the two tablets in water and hear those bubbles bursting into action instantly ready to start providing cold and flu relief fast. Perfect for when slowing down on sick days is not an option. Next time a cold or flu strikes, reach for Alka Seltzer plus cold and flu effervescent tablets. Nothing works faster for cold and flu symptom relief. Among oral OTC products, use as directed. From leaky faucets to faulty ovens, home breakdowns are inevitable. And repair bills add up fast. That's why an American Home Shield warranty is a homeowner sanity saver. AHS repairs or replaces covered parts of systems and appliances, no matter their age. And as a benefit, with select plans, you can video chat with a repair expert in real time. American Home Shield. Don't worry, be warranty. Get 20% off any [e-mail] morbid and see promo details. See ahs.com contracts for coverage details, including service fees, limitations and exclusions. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash.

[Elena]

And I'm Elena.

[Ash]

And this is morbid.

[Elena]

This is morbid.

[Ash]

It's morbid at 2:00'. Clock.

[Elena]

Yeah, I've had falafel and hummus.

[Ash]

I've had falafel and garlic dip.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah.

[Ash]

And I'm having a little Olip.

[Elena]

Oh, my God.

[Ash]

Having a little Sodi break.

[Elena]

I'm having a little strawberries and cream. Dr. Peppy.

[Ash]

I hate. I hate to admit how good those actually are.

[Elena]

They are. They're so good. Yeah. They're not extra like. They're not super sweet.

[Ash]

They don't like it.

[Elena]

No. But, yeah, it's been, you know, it's been. It's. It's been a pretty good day today.

[Ash]

It's been such a good day. I'm having a little bit of an out.

[Elena]

Not in the world, but in the pod lab.

[Ash]

No, not the world.

[Elena]

Clarify that.

[Ash]

Pretty awful right now, but the Pod lab day has been solid.

[Elena]

It has been.

[Ash]

I started the day with a big ass Mason jar coffee. So I knew it was going to.

[Elena]

Be a good one. Oh, see, that's smart.

[Ash]

I'm crashing a little bit, but that's what the ollipop is.

[Elena]

Going to ride that. Ollipop.

[Ash]

Going to ride that.

[Elena]

Oh, you know what? I started my day off really well. What did you start doing? So you know how I've been telling you guys, like, do you know Joy just. But like, don't be hard on yourself. Like, do it small. So I'm not being hard on myself is what I'm saying. And so I was like, I need to start waking up earlier. Like, before the house. I got in a good habit of that. And then I fell out of it. And so now I'm like, okay, my problem is I go too hard too fast. I put too much pressure on myself.

[Ash]

So I said, and that's not how you habit stack.

[Elena]

That is not how you habit stack. And I've learned this. So I said, okay. For a couple weeks, get used to waking up early. Don't do anything productive when you wake up early. Get your coffee, sit quietly, do something that's enjoyable. Don't feel like you have to be productive. Just get used to that early morning thing. So I'm in the middle of that and I'm doing well every day.

[Ash]

Good job.

[Elena]

And this morning I said, you don't have to be productive yet. It's not. Next do this for a week and start on Monday. I made my coffee and then I sat down. I said I should watch something. Yeah, because like, no one's awake.

[Ash]

I know. And you actually could have watched something horrible.

[Elena]

I almost did.

[Ash]

It's surprising that you didn't actually.

[Elena]

Well, I. Here's the funny part. So I go into my, like, you know, my like Netflix or Prime, and I'm looking through it and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna watch a horror movie.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Because, like, no one's awake. I can do this.

[Ash]

That's what I would have expected.

[Elena]

So I was gonna watch like Scream or something. Like, I was like, just a comfort thing. And then I flipped by and I saw Center Stage.

[Ash]

A great pick.

[Elena]

The movie center motherfucking Stage. The one with Jamiroquies. Canned Heat. Yes. Yeah, of course. That one I haven't seen.

[Ash]

I probably haven't seen Center Stage since you were pregnant and we watched it at the apartment.

[Elena]

That's the last time I watched it. Yeah. So that before that was when I.

[Ash]

Was in High school earlier, I was like, oh, my God, I haven't seen that movie in like a few years. I'm like, that's literally 10 years almost.

[Elena]

That's. I saw it and something deep within my. It's from 2000. It is a 26 year old movie. I saw this when it came out. That's. We watched this. Like, Debbie will tell you, we watch this constantly, constantly, constantly. And I saw it and something deep in my soul said, you watched that right now, See, now I have a question for you.

[Ash]

I. I think I know the answer. And I think we vary. Out of these two iconic dance movies. Which do you pick? Center Stage or Save the Last Dance?

[Elena]

Center Stage.

[Ash]

Center Stage. Save the Last Dance is my absolute favorite.

[Elena]

Save the Last Dance is great. Oh, I might watch Taking Nothing Away from that Chair routine. I don't take nothing away from that.

[Ash]

You better not.

[Elena]

Nothing.

[Ash]

Oh, wow.

[Elena]

Oh, wow.

[Ash]

I can't just move on from that. Maybe I'll wake up early and watch that tomorrow.

[Elena]

I'm telling you, it started my day off right because it was the nostalgia that this movie brought me. Like, the girl who plays Maureen was in all those movies during that time period. What is her name? I need to find it now. Because I saw her and I said, oh, you and me, we've been through so much. You and Maureen, me and Maureen. Because she was in 10 things I hate about you. She was in Drive Me Crazy. Remember that banger of a film?

[Ash]

Oh, my God. Crossover with Center Stage and Save the last dance. 10 Things I Hate about yout.

[Elena]

There you go. Julia Stiles. We got it. Who is it that plays Maureen? I'm looking it up right now. Susan May Pratt. Ah.

[Ash]

Oh, wait.

[Elena]

She was the girl who was obsessed with Shakespeare, like, in love with Shakespeare and 10 Things I Hate about yout. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like the bitch and Drive Me crazy. She's in so many things of that time. And then she just went away. And I read. And of course, because I am who I am as a human, as I'm watching this, I was like, what is that lady up to right now? And I looked and I found an article where she was like, yeah, I was in all these things in the 2000, like, early 2000s, I was in, like, a preteen movie. And. And then nothing happened after that.

[Ash]

Damn. And I was like, susan May justice.

[Elena]

For Susan May Pratt is what I.

[Ash]

Say, because really tough for people with three first names. Yeah, people with their first names get a. Get a bad rap.

[Elena]

Also fun little fact that my. My hyper fixation journey.

[Ash]

Tell me everything.

[Elena]

She had no ballet experience before center stage. Blew my mind.

[Ash]

I know. That's actually.

[Elena]

And she played the star ballet dancer.

[Ash]

Yeah. That's really nuts.

[Elena]

Yeah. So there's that. Zoe Saldana is in that. And she is a goddess.

[Ash]

I gotta watch this again. I haven't seen this in so long.

[Elena]

So, guys, I highly recommend watching center stage at 5:30 in the morning. Check it with a hot coffee.

[Ash]

Let's fucking go, girls.

[Elena]

I highly recommend feeling blue. Watch center stage at 5:30 in the morning.

[Ash]

She's been in a really good mood today, folks.

[Elena]

I have it set me right. I love it. I may watch Drive Me Crazy tomorrow morning.

[Ash]

That would be a reckless way to start off your morning.

[Elena]

Absolutely would.

[Ash]

In the best way.

[Elena]

I'm ready. I'm ready for it.

[Ash]

I don't think I could watch Save the Last Dance first thing in the morning.

[Elena]

Because that's not a. No. That's not a first. You don't need to cry.

[Ash]

No, not first thing in the morning.

[Elena]

You don't need deep emotions. You need. Teen nostalgia is what you need.

[Ash]

Yeah, I just woke up from a really scary dream this morning. You did that. There was like a robber in your house on the camera. But then we were also getting dinner with Patricia Atel from Southern Charm Wild with Miss. And I was lost in Miss Pat's house. And I couldn't get to anybody.

[Elena]

I would get lost in that house. That house is gorgeous.

[Ash]

No, that's one of those. Not my house, but I know my way around houses.

[Elena]

Yes, that's. Honestly. Yeah, that house. Gorgeous.

[Ash]

Gorgeous.

[Elena]

Obsessed with that house.

[Ash]

It's kind of just like on the road, I guess. Like, people have driven past it and they're like. It's literally just like right there. That's just not to triangulate Ms. Pat's location.

[Elena]

I mean, it's on Southern.

[Ash]

It's literally.

[Elena]

It's a pretty. It's a pretty iconic house. It is. But. Yeah, and it was like the burglar from the Sims.

[Ash]

No, but it was a lot scarier than that.

[Elena]

It was.

[Ash]

It was dressed like that, but it didn't have the biggest. What's the thing over here? Yeah, it did not have a plumb bob. Remember when you had a plumb bob?

[Elena]

Yeah. That was scary.

[Ash]

And it was saying creepy things into the camera. And I was trying to get to.

[Elena]

You, but I was like, Ms. Pats, I hate that. I mean, you get lost in Ms. Pat's. You know, what can you do?

[Ash]

I wouldn't but it was in your old apartment, which was, like, super weird. I was very transported. And then I. I hate a dream that you wake up from, like, first thing in the morning like that, where it's like. I wasn't. Like, I didn't wake up, like, shrieking or anything, but it was, like, just, like, unsettling.

[Elena]

Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah.

[Ash]

And then I ran into my neighbor, who was, like, the nicest lady, and she was so put together, and I was wearing. I1 hadn't brushed my teeth yet. I was wearing cherry pants.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And drew shoes.

[Elena]

Hell yeah.

[Ash]

It was really embarrassing.

[Elena]

That's why I'm really happy that it seems like my whole neighborhood is very the same in the morning. This woman feels like we're all just rolling out there in some sweatpants.

[Ash]

I think she has, like, a. A job to go to. That's not.

[Elena]

Like, she has to, like, look nice.

[Ash]

Yeah. Like, I think she has to, like, look nice. And she looked great. In fact, I told her she had great loafers while I was wearing my husband's shoes.

[Elena]

That's nice.

[Ash]

My husband's Van Clompers.

[Elena]

But you know what? You threw a compliment to somebody first thing in the morning. I did. You started her day off right.

[Ash]

And Dolo's day started off right. She fucking loves our neighbor's dog.

[Elena]

So there you go.

[Ash]

Yeah. You know, you do what you can.

[Elena]

So, you know, that's. That's. That's starting your day.

[Ash]

Starting your day. Starting your day with us. Maybe you're starting your day with us right now. And you're like, wow, this is ridiculous.

[Elena]

Like, holy shit, what are you guys doing? Well, you know, if you need one more thing to do, maybe go pre order the Butcher Legacy, the third book, my series. What's the [e-mail]? you can get it anywhere you want. I believe there are still some signed copies left at Barnes and Noble, but there's a limited amount, so go. Those are only at Barnes and Noble right now, the signed copies. So. But, you know, go grab them wherever you want.

[Ash]

And they're special editions with fun illustrations and sprayed edges.

[Elena]

There is. That's fun. So go get whatever one you feel you are drawn to, but pre order.

[Ash]

For all you know, also check out. We are. If you're listening to the Rewatcher, continue to do so, please. And if you're not, what the heck?

[Elena]

Come on. True Blood's so fun.

[Ash]

True Blood is really, really good.

[Elena]

We're having a blast.

[Ash]

We are going to be covering next Wednesday the penultimate episode and then obviously the season finale the week after that.

[Elena]

So tune in and you know it's going to be awesome because Ash is going to find out the identification of a serial killer on True Blood and.

[Ash]

I have so many theories and I.

[Elena]

Can'T wait for her to find out.

[Ash]

I'm so excited, but I'm also so nervous. I hate being wrong.

[Elena]

I know. I'm excited for you to find. Okay. But yeah, join us over there. It's a lot of fun and I think that's, I, I shouldn't say that's all business, but, you know, that's all our business and pleasure. Yeah, I would say check it. But let's get into the case, shall we?

[Ash]

We shall.

[Elena]

So the case I have today for us, tell me is the murder of Kitty Genovese.

[Ash]

Oh, I'm, I did take a psychology class and good old bunch. So I am familiar with this.

[Elena]

Yep. A lot of people should be familiar with this. If you took any psychology classes or any TR crime or true crime, any criminal justice classes, anything like that in school, usually they, they bring this up. So this case is wild. It's very tragic, very sad and very tragic and trigger warning because it's like very brutal. So let's talk about first who Kitty Genovese was.

[Ash]

Katherine.

[Elena]

Kitty Genovese was born July 7, 1935. She was born in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York. She was the oldest of five children born to Vincent and Rachel Genovese. Of the five Genovese children, quote, Kitty was the talker, bright eyed and full of pep.

[Ash]

Oh, I love that.

[Elena]

The family was definitely not well off financially and you know, life could be a little difficult. They're in a cramped Brooklyn apartment together. That's a lot of people. Yeah, Brooklyn. Yeah. And think about New York apartments right now and there's seven people in there.

[Ash]

No.

[Elena]

Yeah. But they generally like, they got along with each other and they cared for one another best they could. It seemed like a good existence.

[Ash]

That's nice.

[Elena]

By the time she reached high school in the fall of 1949, Kitty was definitely one of the more popular girls in school. She was killing it and she was starting to get attention from the boys in her class.

[Ash]

Of course, you know, we love, love.

[Elena]

One of her former classmates, Angelo Lanzone, said, Kitty was attractive, but there was more to her than looks. Kitty had charm.

[Ash]

Oh, honey.

[Elena]

Which Angelo?

[Ash]

Angelo.

[Elena]

I love Angelo. Just being like she was real pretty, but she was also awesome.

[Ash]

I think she's a cancer, so she's definitely deep.

[Elena]

She's a channel. Yeah. And while Kitty may not have been the best student among her peers at the time, she did excel in courses like English and music. She seemed like she had a creative spirit to her.

[Ash]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Elena]

And she was very liked by her teachers. She was liked by other students. She was just, like, killing it.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Kitty.

[Ash]

Kitty.

[Elena]

So by the time Kitty finished high school in 1953, New York was changing. It was just changing as a city, and there were fears over rising crime rates. It was just becoming wild. Not long after she graduated from high school, her mother was walking home one afternoon and witnessed a shooting in the street in broad daylight. Jesus. According to author Kevin Cook, Rachel Genovese practically walked into the shooting. She was close enough to see the victim's blood filling the sidewalk cracks.

[Ash]

Oh, that'll change you.

[Elena]

Yeah. Rachel's one and only experience as a witness to violent crime was more than enough. She has a whole family to take care of. Yeah. And that summer, Vincent bought a small ranch house in New Canaan, Connecticut, and began making arrangements to move the family to the suburbs about 50 miles north of the city. He told the rest of the family, it's safer there. Nice people.

[Ash]

I think that was happening a lot during this time. People were moving outside of the city. City for sure.

[Elena]

And obviously, the move to New Canaan was supposed to, like, bring them out of this city that they saw as having rising crime rates. But Vincent also hoped that the new environment and higher, you know, the higher caliber of community is what he felt it was, would encourage Kitty, especially to meet a nice man and get married, have some kids, you know. And to that point, Kitty had gone on a handful of dates with boys at school, but never anything serious that lasted more than a few dates. And in truth, the thought of dating, quote, filled her with troubling longings and queasiness. She said, she's like, not for me. So to Vincent and Rachel's great surprise, when they announced the move to Connecticut, Kitty said, no, I'm not moving. Hello. Yeah. She frankly told her parents, I can't go. I feel free in New York. I'm alive here. Aw. And at first, the thought of their daughter staying behind in the city was out of the question. She was an adult at this point. And, you know, if she wanted to live on her own, there was really nothing they could do to stop it. Yeah, they could try to convince her, but you can't stop it.

[Ash]

Oh, that's gotta be so rough, because they're like, wait, come with us. Because we feel like it's safer.

[Elena]

And then this happens. Yeah. So she promised them she would find a safe neighborhood and a good job. She would call them regularly and take the train. Trained New Canaan on weekends to visit. All right.

[Ash]

I mean, really, what more can you ask her to do?

[Elena]

And although Rachel and Vincent still didn't like the idea of leaving her behind, Kitty's assurances seemed genuine. And eventually, they gave their blessing and were, like, fine. Now, in that first year on her own, Kitty stayed in the extra room in her grandfather's apartment and found work as a secretary at an insurance company. And in time, she'd saved enough money to move out. And by the end of 1954, she'd found an apartment of her own. Her job paid enough, but it kind of lacked the social aspect that Kitty had been hoping for. So just a few months after moving into the apartment, she quit her job and found a new job waiting tables. When the job as a server fell through, she found another, this time as a hostess at an Italian restaurant. But that, too, really wasn't what she wanted. And it was only by chance that after the hostess job came to an end, Kitty finally found what she had been looking for when she answered an ad looking for a bartender at the neighborhood bar in Hollis Queen.

[Ash]

Like you said, she's chatty. She's got, like, a genetic qua.

[Elena]

Yeah. And as a bartender, the money she made in tips was more than enough to support herself.

[Ash]

Oh, yeah.

[Elena]

But just as important, the bar in the neighborhood provided a community that she was looking for, especially since her family had moved to Connecticut.

[Ash]

Restaurant crews get so close, really tight.

[Elena]

And in time, she moved up from bartender to manager and began settling into life in Queens. Wow.

[Ash]

Good for her. To be so young and to make moves like that, like, legit money moves.

[Elena]

Yeah. She's moving on up now. As promised, Kitty kept in regular touch with her parents. She visited as often as she could. She. She was telling the truth. Yeah. But Rachel and Vincent remained troubled that now in her mid-20s, Kitty still hadn't married or even dated someone. Seriously. They're just being parents.

[Ash]

They're from a different generation.

[Elena]

In 1959, to appease her parents, Kitty accepted a date with a man from Connecticut. Seeing how happy it made her parents, she didn't have the heart to tell them she wasn't at all interested in him. So she let the relations go on. And later that year, they got married.

[Ash]

Oh, no.

[Elena]

So she, like, really appeased her parents.

[Ash]

She sure did.

[Elena]

Just two months later, though, the marriage was annulled. It.

[Ash]

It Just wasn't going to work.

[Elena]

Just wasn't going to work. Oh, Kitty. Kitty's, you know, end of her marriage was a serious disappointment to. What I didn't mention before is her deeply Catholic parents.

[Ash]

You didn't.

[Elena]

I don't know if you got to mention that idea. Yeah, I didn't mention it because I thought it was implied, but. But it was not to be. The last embarrassment suffered by Rachel and Vincent Genovese. And there, in 1961, less than two years after the annulment, Kitty and one of her co workers at the Bar D. Guarneri were arrested for bookmaking for taking bets on the horse races from patrons at the bar. Damn.

[Ash]

Beds are also a big bartender. I remember those football squares. Did you ever get those? Yeah, football squares are huge.

[Elena]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Ash]

And it's a little different, you know, with horses.

[Elena]

Well. And it's like the offense is relatively minor.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

And even in the law's eyes, I mean. And it resulted in a 50 fine.

[Ash]

I was literally just gonna say, is it just a fine?

[Elena]

But they both lost their jobs. Oh. Which sucks. Despite whatever embarrassment Kitty's parents felt that they. They got from that, she managed to land on her feet. And she quickly found a new job tending bar at EVs 11th Hour, a neighborhood bar in Hollis, and moved into a motel room a few blocks away. Okay. So a few years later, Kitty's life would again change dramatically. This time for the better. However, she explained the failed marriage to her parents in 1959, it almost certainly wasn't the truth. Okay. However she had said was happening, the fact was, the queasiness that Kitty had always felt when it came to dating and her fail, you know, quote unquote, failed marriage was likely due to the fact that she did not have an interest in men.

[Ash]

Yeah, I was starting to wonder, like.

[Elena]

A romantic interest in men. Of course, in the late 1950s, early 1960s, coming out as a lesbian would have had serious consequences.

[Ash]

And she comes from a deeply Catholic family.

[Elena]

Exactly. And it would range from being disowned by her family to being arrested or involuntarily placed in a mental health facility. Yeah.

[Ash]

Shit was fucking wild.

[Elena]

So Kitty had good reason to keep that to herself, whether or not she chose to reveal that side of herself to her family. She wasn't entirely closeted. And on occasion, she would visit the underground, you know, gay and lesbian bars in Greenwich Village. So she was at least like a kid exploring that side of her, which is good for her. And it was at one of these bars Called the Swing Rendezvous, which is a great bar that Kitty met. The first person who she felt a true romantic connection with, Marianne Zalonko. She was a few years younger than Kitty, but she'd been on her own since the age of 16 and had been supporting herself in New York ever since. Which takes a tough chick, badass, essentially. Like, if you can make it New York from 16 years old. Yeah, that's a.

[Ash]

You're a straight up New Yorker.

[Elena]

One spring night in 1963, Marianne stopped into the Swing Rendezvous for a drink and was approached by a woman at the bar. The woman asked, don't I know you from somewhere? Oh, I love it. And as opening lines go, it was definitely, you know, a tired one. So Marianne was like, I don't think so.

[Ash]

You know, Marianne had been hearing that from the age of 16 onward.

[Elena]

No. And she kind of brushed it off as a, you know, a failed pickup attempt.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

But the woman just smiled and said, oh, I think I do. I'm Kitty. So she wasn't deterred by it.

[Ash]

She said, I will continue with this life.

[Elena]

She was like, I'm not embarrassed. I thought that was great. Oh, I love that. So the pickup line might have been a tired one, but Marianne found it pretty hard to resist Kitty's charm and her infectious laugh, which a lot of people said. She said, we just hit it off. We meshed. I'm very quiet, and she talked a lot. We both had struggles with our sexuality, but we had a quick bond. A few days later, Marianne returned home one afternoon and found a note from Kitty taped to her door. And it said, we'll call you at the street corner phone booth at 7.

[Ash]

Kitty G. Stop, Kitty G.

[Elena]

That night, they made plans to meet at Seven Steps, which was a nearby bar. And from that point on, they were practically inseparable.

[Ash]

Love.

[Elena]

Love, Kitty and Marion. For weeks, the two would meet at bars or get together at Kitty's motel room around the corner of the bar. And Marian said, but that's not real life. Kitty was happy, but it made me nervous. I didn't think it was safe. Who lives in a motel? Yeah.

[Ash]

Understandable.

[Elena]

She's wearable. At Marianne's insistence, the two began looking for an apartment and soon found a one bedroom on Austin street in the Kew Gardens neighborhood of Queens, right next to the Long island railroad station. Okay. Now, decades later, Marianne would remember that time as, quote, one of the happiest years of my life. Oh, that breaks my heart. Which ruins me, because you know what happens? They both work days. Kitty managing Elle's 11th hour. And Marianne tending bar at Club Chris, leaving their nights free to spend together. Nice. When Rachel and Vincent Genovese first visited the apartment, Kitty introduced Marianne as her friend. But after that, the question about her meeting a nice man and getting married came to an end.

[Ash]

Well, that's good.

[Elena]

And Marianne said, I think her mother knew.

[Ash]

It's nice. They stopped asking.

[Elena]

And Marianne said, she was always very nice to me.

[Ash]

All right, nice.

[Elena]

But later, after Kitty's death, their attitude towards Marianne changed.

[Ash]

Okay, well, that's really shitty.

[Elena]

Starting at the funeral, where they refused to acknowledge her.

[Ash]

Oh, I really.

[Elena]

And Marianne said, I think it was because of our lifestyle. It wasn't because of your lifestyle. It was because of really messed up thinking.

[Ash]

100.

[Elena]

It's. You don't have to take that blame.

[Ash]

No, I don't like when people refer to being gay as a lifestyle.

[Elena]

I know that has been said to me before and it pisses me the. Because it's like, is being straight a lifestyle?

[Ash]

No, because a lifestyle. A lifestyle is a choice.

[Elena]

Exactly.

[Ash]

Being gay is not a choice. Like, just like being straight is not really a choice.

[Elena]

I love a cozy lifestyle.

[Ash]

Yes.

[Elena]

That's my choice.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

I chose that lifestyle. Like, that's, it's, that's not the same.

[Ash]

I just got so triggered in that moment. I remembered like any.

[Elena]

And obviously Marianne is saying it's because of our lifestyle. Because that's what, you know, she's Sarah as well. So that's how she heard it said to her.

[Ash]

That's what I'm saying. Like, that was put on her.

[Elena]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ash]

I'm not gonna lie to you. My social battery is often running low. And there's a lot of times where I'm like, I don't feel like going to that thing tonight. Like, no, I don't want to go to that birthday party or I don't want to go to that dinner. But guess what? 9 out of 10 times when I go out, I'm happy I did because something cool happens or I meet a new fun person. Unforgettable memories are made when you're present and when you're connected, not distracted and exhausted. When your social battery is running low this holiday season, recharge with Liquid IV's energy multiplier, sugar free hydrating energy. It's scientifically formulated to support physical energy, hydration, focus, mood and social stamina. Just one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. With three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, I'm a huge fan of Liquid iv. In fact, I've been on a Liquid IV kick lately and I have particularly loved the sugar free hydrating energy kind. I really really love the BlackBerry lemonade. If you mix that up and you put it in a fancy glass it feels like you're having the most cutesy romanticize your life delicious mocktail. I love to drink mine especially after a workout or sometimes in the middle of the day if I just need a little bit of a boost or pre going out somewhere that I'm not sure I want to go out to and then whenever I go I'm like oh I'm so glad I did this and that. I pregamed with Liquid IV show up with better hydration and energy from Liquid IV. Zero sugar and zero crash tear, pour and live more. Go to Liquid I.com and get 20% off your first order with code morbid at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code morbid@liquid I.com are you starting the year with a wardrobe refresh? I love it. Quint has you covered with all the luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. They're perfect for layering, mixing and building a wardrobe that lasts busts. Their versatile styles make it easy to reach for them day after day. From soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like designer pieces without the markup to 100 silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear, their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season. I am a big fan of the cashmere sweaters and the silk skirts. I like to pair the silk skirts with the sweaters, but every now and again I'll just pair it with like an oversized sweatshirt and kind of like tuck the sweatshirt so it's like a comfy but chic look. That's the thing I like about Quince. You can dress it up or you can dress it down because I could just as easily put on like a really nice silk top and then it looks like I'm wearing a gorgeous silk dress. Honey, I'm ready to show up to any occasion I'm invited to. I love Quince and so will you refresh your wardrobe with Quince? Don't wait. Go to quince.commorbid for free shipping on your order and 365 day return returns. Now available in Canada too. Yay. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.commorbid to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commorbid this is an ad by BetterHelp Guys. 2026 is the year that I turned 30, which means I don't care what anyone thinks of me anymore. That is what I am letting go of to feel lighter in 2026. Other people's thoughts about me A new year is a new opportunity to feel lighter and you don't have to become a new person to do that. That Signing up for therapy with Better Help can shine a light on what's been weighing you down and illuminate the possibilities for the year ahead. Better Help handles the initial therapist matching for you. All you have to do is take a short questionnaire to share your needs and your preferences. And thanks to BetterHelp's industry leading match fulfillment rate, they usually get your match right the first time. And if your match isn't the right fit, don't worry. Switching to a different therapist is super easy. Let BetterHelp provide you an unbiased perspective on your life so that you can head into the new year taking only what truly serves you. You can't step into a lighter version of yourself without leaving behind what's been weighing you down. Therapy can help clear your space. Sign up and get 10 off at betterhelp.com morbid that's betterhelp H-E-L-P.com morbid.

[Elena]

Now Regardless of how Kitty's parents or anyone else felt about their relationship, Kitty and Marian could not have been happy, happier and good for they both deserve to be. Immediately after moving in, Kitty began setting up her apartment, determined to make it a cozy home because she was choosing a cozy lifestyle and getting to know their neighbors. Billy Corrado, one of her neighbors said she was super nice with a smile for everybody.

[Ash]

Oh she sounds awesome.

[Elena]

Kitty Genovese sounds like Kitty G. Badass. She does now. After moving in, they quickly settled into a quiet domestic life together. Love and on their nights off, Kitty would read fiction while Marianne painted. Oh like they talked about art, music, movies, their shared interest in astrology.

[Ash]

Oh bitch you would have loved I love especially to be interested in astrology back then. An OG astrology girlie yeah come on.

[Elena]

Yeah. They really were living this little idyllic just moment together and for to be in the 1960s for them to be a gay couple in the 1960s, that was hard to find. Absolutely is your own idyllic life bubble together where you were unburdened by everyone else's fucking opinions about it. But they found that together and it makes me happy that they have me.

[Ash]

So happy and Just like she's living such a New York life, which makes me so happy because she that's what she wanted and where she felt free.

[Elena]

I feel free. I feel alive. Now it's gonna take a rough turn. Of course I know I've set you up for this and I'm. But it gives me a little comfort to know that she had this like idyllic life with someone she loved before the shadow. But this is gonna be turn now. At around 2:30am on March 13, 1964, Kitty finished closing up Ev's 11th hour and headed out to her red Fiat parked in the lot. After years of managing the bar, Kitty had gone through this routine a million times. And it all felt so routine that she didn't even think to survey her surroundings. When she left the bar, she might have noticed if she did, a man in the Chevy Corvair sitting at the light, watching her. If she looked in her rearview mirror as she pulled out the lot, she might have seen this man do a U turn in the middle of the road to follow her car. But even at that late hour, it's unlikely that Kitty had danger on her mind. After all, Queens was the safest of the Burrows. At this point, she felt so at home here that it never would have occurred to her that something terrible could happen.

[Ash]

Well, that's like you said, she has been enmeshed in this place for years.

[Elena]

This is her home. She feels safe now. Pulling off the parkway at the Queens Boulevard exit, Kitty turned onto Austin street and then parked in the lot for the Long Island Railroad, ignoring the no parking signs, just as everyone in the neighborhood always does. They said that? Yeah. As she got out of the car, she fumbled with her keys. She probably didn't notice the white Corvair slowly pass by and pull off the side road a half a block away. After lingering a moment to lock her car doors, Kitty turned and began walking towards the building. The door that led to Kitty and Marianne's second floor apartment was in the back of the building, which required her to walk down a dark alley, lit faintly by the street lamp by the railroad tracks at the other end, but pretty dark.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Maybe Kitty finally caught on to this man who'd been following her since she left the bar. Or maybe she simply got the feeling that something wasn't right. We don't know. Whatever the case, she started running towards the streetlight and the man behind her ran after her.

[Ash]

Oh, God, that's an absolute nightmare.

[Elena]

Most women know that feeling absolutely, of running from somebody.

[Ash]

So many people, so many Women have been in that situation.

[Elena]

Now, she'd reached the entrance to the bookstore when she find. When he finally caught up with her, her, knocking her to the ground and driving his hunting knife into her back, yanking it out and then stabbing her again. It happened this fast, and that's a split second. Yeah. Several of Kitty's neighbors were awoken by the screams they heard coming from the street. She shouted, oh, my God, he stabbed me. Please help. Please help me. At that, one of the windows in the apartment above shot open, and a man, Robert Moser, stuck his head out, and he shouted, let that girl alone, thinking that she was being harassed by someone. Yeah. The sound of Moser's voice startled Kitty's attacker, who looked up at the man in the window, then shrugged his shoulders and walked down Austin street towards his car. He was just like, whatever.

[Ash]

Oh, my God.

[Elena]

Now, with her attacker having fled, Kitty struggled to her feet and began making her way towards the back of the building, presumably trying to get inside to safety, where she would find help. Yeah. Now that the scene was quiet again, those who had been woken by the screams assumed probably that whatever commotion that was about it was over. So they turned off the lights and went back to bed. Ten or so minutes later, ten or so minutes later, those few who were still awake and still watching out their windows saw the man in the white car return.

[Ash]

Ten minutes later, he came back. So, and it's like, what was he planning to do? Because she could have found her way inside at that point. Like, was he gonna break into the apartment looking for her?

[Elena]

Who knows?

[Ash]

Or was he coming back for somebody else?

[Elena]

Well, now his face was covered with a wide, brimmed hat, and the man appeared to be looking for something. Searching the area around the bookstore, the parking lot of the train station, and eventually behind the building where he found what he was looking for. Kitty Genovese was slumped in front of the back door to her building, a locked door preventing her from reaching to the safety of her apartment. Oh, my God. What happened next occurred out of the view of any neighbor's windows. So the specific details of the attack are unknown, but according to the autopsy performed the following day by Queen's medical examiner, William Benson, there were 13 stab wounds scattered over the body. Nine in front and four in back. A stab wound in the throat, and several slashes on the right hand.

[Ash]

That's unreal.

[Elena]

The wounds on the hand were jagged, indicating Kitty had tried to fight off her attacker. But by that time, her injuries would have left her with little energy to do anything. Despite the number and severity of stab wounds. The cause of death was listed as bilateral pneumothorax, meaning the air from a punctured lung had filled her chest and compressed her lungs, causing her to suffocate. That's a horrible way to go. After stabbing Kitty repeatedly, the man sexually assaulted her and robbed her of the $49 she had on her, and then fled to his car. Piece of shit garbage. Just moments after the attacker fled the scene, her next door neighbor, Sophia Farrar, got a phone call from one of the other residents in the building. The frantic neighbor told Farrar that Kitty had been attacked and was outside by the vestibule. Without hesitating, Sophia dropped the phone and ran down the back backstairs. When she reached the door, she found that it wouldn't budge because Kitty was slumped against it. A moment later, Sophia was able to get the door open and found Kitty, quote, in a pool of blood, moaning and gurgling and barely conscious. Sophia shouted for someone to call an ambulance, then held the gravely wounded Kitty in her arms, whispering to her that help was on the way.

[Ash]

I'm so glad she wasn't alone throughout all of that, but she was alone through so much of that.

[Elena]

It's true. And in a 2016 interview, Farrar said, I only hope that she knew it was me, that she wasn't alone. Yeah, yeah. What happened next remains pretty unclear, with some details kind of like lost through time and others. Because one thing that you should know about this is that the myths and untruths surrounding this case are aplenty.

[Ash]

Yeah, it's heavily debated.

[Elena]

It's very difficult to ascertain fact from fiction and what's been told through a game of telephone for a long time now. Several people in the building called the police at various points, points during the attack, but because no one could tell what exactly was happening, they couldn't adequately convey the emergency. In the most charitable interpretation, it appears the police dispatcher. There was no 911 system at the time, which is wild to think about, Bonkers. Was under the impression that Kitty had been beaten up or robbed. So the report wasn't given the highest priority.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Which. Whoa. By the time the real nature of the attack had been reported, nearly 40 minutes had passed, and it would be another half hour before the ambulance arrived at 4.15am by then, it was too late. Kitty had died from her injuries on the way to the hospital. Now, a short time after Kitty was taken away by ambulance, Marianne heard a pounding at the door. She said, it woke me up And I was scared. Who comes knocking at 4 in the morning? So she cautiously opens it to find a police officer on the other side.

[Ash]

Worst nightmare.

[Elena]

The officer explained that Kitty had been attacked and was on her way to the hospital. She had lost a lot of blood and it didn't look like she was going to survive. Marianne said, I went numb. As they stood there in the doorway, another officer approached and informed them that Kitty was dead.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

At 4 in the morning, 4am she hears a knock at the door. It's a police officer who says, the love of your life has been attacked and is on the way to the hospital, and we don't think she's going to make it. And another officer comes up while you're processing that and says she actually does like it. Like, one, two punch.

[Ash]

How do you ever recover?

[Elena]

How do you process that?

[Ash]

And at such a young age, too, like your mid-20s, that that's probably the first person you've ever truly loved. How the.

[Elena]

Do you ever move on from. I don't know how you've survived. So for the next several hours, Marianne sat in the kitchen with her neighbor Carl Ross, who brought over a bottle of vodka. Outside, police and reporters were milling about the area, taping off the scene, snapping photos. When Detective Mitchell Tsang arrived around 7:30am he didn't take kindly to the presence of Carl Ross. In his report, Sang wrote that Ross, quote, claimed to be consoling Marianne while swilling vodka and acting obnoxious. When Sang asked to speak to Marianne alone and Carl protested, which, like, don't do that.

[Ash]

Yeah, you gotta.

[Elena]

The detective physically pulled him out of his chair and shoved him out the door.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Angry, frustrated, and probably a little drunk, Ross kicked a hole in one of the first floor doors, causing Sang to place him under arrest for disorderly conduct.

[Ash]

Like, baby, you're not doing yourself any favors.

[Elena]

And it's also, like, with everything going on right now, don't add. I just wouldn't like. Because you're also adding to Marianne's like, shit right now. She's going through enough. It does. It just doesn't need to be about you.

[Ash]

You might think you're helping, but you're very.

[Elena]

You're just making it about you right now and Marianne. Someone going through this.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Now, I also don't think he should have been arrested. No. I think you just tell them, like, you get. Just go sleep it off. Yeah, like, go sleep it up. You shouldn't arrest him for that.

[Ash]

No, obviously, you know, he did.

[Elena]

Like, I didn't even Think of that. I. In my head, I was like, oh, he kicked a door. You know? It happens. Yeah, he kicked a hole in it. That does suck.

[Ash]

And now it's like, somebody's gotta fix that.

[Elena]

It's just such, like, a high. I'm like. Like, the emotions are so high in that situation. It sucks all around. It's true.

[Ash]

They probably just arrested him to get him the out.

[Elena]

They probably did because he was drunk. Yeah. That's not good.

[Ash]

Hopefully they just let him sleep it off and then sent him home.

[Elena]

Yeah. I just feel bad for these people.

[Ash]

I know this is a lot.

[Elena]

The arrest of Carl Ross does reflect the misplaced priorities and bias that would ultimately run through much of this case, though, which is frustrating. A young woman had been brutally murdered by a stranger at the doorstep of her own apartment building.

[Ash]

It's like, maybe let's focus on that.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like the first action taken in the investigation was to arrest a neighbor. Can we look somewhere else? Yeah. When homicide detectives John Carroll and Jerry Burns took over the investigation later that morning, things didn't exactly improve.

[Ash]

Oh, great.

[Elena]

After aggressively interviewing the neighbors in the building, the detectives turned their attention to Marianne, who was treated more as a suspect than a victim.

[Ash]

A suspect?

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Marion woke her out of a dead sleep.

[Elena]

Marian said it was good cop, bad cop. But the bad one, Burns, did most of the talking. For hours, they peppered her with questions that, in retrospect, didn't seem all that relevant to what happened. I'm sure they wanted to know how long she'd known Kitty, who their friends were, how often they argued, and most important, inappropriately. Did Marianne have any sexual problems?

[Ash]

Sexual? Oh, because they were saying, are you a lesbian? Because that was considered a sexual problem.

[Elena]

She said. I was still in shock. It took me a while to realize what he was getting at. They thought I might be the one who killed her. She didn't even know that's what they were getting at.

[Ash]

Unreal.

[Elena]

It eventually became clear to Marianne that the detectives were more interested in her relationship with Kitty than they were finding the man responsible for murdering her. And the more they pressed her, the less comfortable she became.

[Ash]

The other thing, it's like, go ask around. From the apartment, a man literally saw the person who did this.

[Elena]

Yeah. You're aggressively talking to the neighbors, they're gonna tell you they saw a man, she said. I didn't wanna talk to the cops, especially not Burns. But they harassed me for six hours trying to get me to say something bad about Kitty. Finally, they got me to Admit it. Okay. We were lesbians.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

Decades later, Marianne would still regret revealing that information. She said. Said, I was always upset with myself for revealing that. What right did they have to know? It's true.

[Ash]

What right did they have to know? But when you're pressed for six hours.

[Elena]

I'm surprised you say more of your life like now. In the days that followed, Marianne shut herself up in her apartment while more than a few neighbors began keeping their distance from her.

[Ash]

That's horrible.

[Elena]

Police officers and detectives continued coming around to ask prying questions about their relationship that felt more like accusations than anything else. A few days later, at the funeral, things only got worse as Kitty's parents rejected Marion entirely and turned their back on her.

[Ash]

That's shitty.

[Elena]

Kitty's brother Vincent said. My mother couldn't handle it. We read about it in the papers, the gruesome description. A few days after the funeral, the police finally took Marianne's name off the suspect list.

[Ash]

Nice.

[Elena]

Why?

[Ash]

Couldn't even let her get through the funeral.

[Elena]

Here's the thing. Normally when somebody is murdered, if they are living with a partner, of course, you ask the partner first. First. This is a little different.

[Ash]

This is so much different.

[Elena]

Outside on the street, she's not in the apartment.

[Ash]

The door was locked, and that's the whole reason she couldn't get in.

[Elena]

She was sleeping in the apartment. And neighbors literally saw a man.

[Ash]

There are eyewitnesses.

[Elena]

It's like, this is a very different situation. I would always say it makes sense to ask the partner first because you got to rule them out, but not here. This is not one of those. And I feel like they railroaded her at first.

[Ash]

Well, they did it because of. Yeah, they did it because of her sexuality. 100%.

[Elena]

Now, on March 18, less than a week after the murder, Corona, New York resident Raul Cleary was standing outside his house when he saw a young man he didn't know coming out of his neighbor's house carrying a television. Cleary called out and asked the man what he was doing. He said, it's okay. I'm helping them move. As he loaded the TV into his Chevy Corvair. Now, Cleary went back inside and called one of the other neighbors to ask whether the family across the street was moving, which.

[Ash]

This is a good neighbor. It really is.

[Elena]

Hell, yeah. And the neighbor said they definitely were not, then hung up and called the police, not wanting the man to get away. Before the police arrived, Raul waited until the man was back inside the house. Then he went out to the Chevy, lifted the hood, and Removed the distributor cap, ducking back into his apartment before the man returned.

[Ash]

King shit is not even the description. That's next level. That's a neighbor that you want to like, take care of your shit while you're away.

[Elena]

Yeah. Because he's not. All he's doing is making it so that car won't run. He's not breaking it. He's not. He just removed a cap that he can put back when he needs to put back. If you are proven to not be a robber.

[Ash]

Iconic.

[Elena]

Pretty. Raul.

[Ash]

Raul forever.

[Elena]

Now. When the man came back out and found his car wouldn't start, he simply got out and walked away down the street, giving no indication that he was committing a crime. Okay. He was equally unconcerned a short time later when two patrol officers pulled up beside him and started asking questions about his having been at a house. House down the street. Yeah. The young man with the white Chevy turned out to be 29 year old queens resident Winston Mosley.

[Ash]

Winston Mosley.

[Elena]

At the time of his arrest, Mosley was married with three children. Are you had a decent job at a nearby factory. And most importantly, he had no criminal record.

[Ash]

That is next level.

[Elena]

To their surprise, when he was interrogated by police, he freely admitted to having robbed the house in Corona and even claimed to have committed many similar break ins in the past. He told police he had given most of the appliances to his father, who owned a repair shop and could resell them. The officers paid a visit to Mosley's father, who confirmed that his son had brought him several items in the past. Now, despite his calm demeanor and almost eager confession to robbery, investigators couldn't help but feel there was something he was hiding. So they decided to hold on to him a little longer for the robberies while they did some digging. It didn't take long for them to realize that Mosley's car matched the description of the car seen outside Kitty's building on the night of the murder. A few hours after Winston Mosley was arrested for robbery, he was sitting in an interrogation room across from Detective John Carroll. Among other things, Carol was curious about the fresh scabs on Mosley's hands, which he claimed he got from working around the house. Doubt it. Carol said. No, you got those cuts from Kitty Genovese when you were putting the knife in, which like, whoa.

[Ash]

Just boom.

[Elena]

The room went silent for a few seconds. And then, with a slight smile forming on his lips, he looked at Carol and said, okay. I killed her.

[Ash]

Oh, that's chilling.

[Elena]

What the fuck?

[Ash]

Just a father of Three.

[Elena]

Yep.

[Ash]

In that interrogation room, cheesing about the fact that he murdered a young woman.

[Elena]

And this detective is like, no, you got those cuts when you put the knife in her body. And he's like, okay, I did kill her.

[Ash]

You're right.

[Elena]

What the.

[Ash]

That's a moment that probably never left Detective Carroll. Truly imagine, because you're looking at evil.

[Elena]

That's like you are looking at pure evil.

[Ash]

That's like we always say, like one of those things you see in a movie and you're like, all right.

[Elena]

Yeah. And it's like that's what it happened. Really happened. Ew. For the rest of the night, Winston Mosley continued giving his confession to detectives, not sparing any gruesome detail.

[Ash]

That's such a weasley.

[Elena]

Even as he ate his dinner.

[Ash]

Dinner. He shouldn't have been given a dinner.

[Elena]

He told them about how he'd spotted her when she was getting into her car, how he'd followed her home and stabbed her, and how he came back after being run off the first time. He even told them about how he'd stolen her wallet and kept the money, throwing the rest of the bill fold into the weeds as he was on his way to work the next morning. Moosely also claimed that as he was driving home after killing Kitty, he spotted a man sleeping in his car by the side of the road. He approached the car and tapped on the driver's side window with the bloody knife. Knife. Startling the driver awake, Mosley said, listen, mister, you shouldn't be sleeping like that. The carbon monoxide builds up or somebody could come along and do something bad to you.

[Ash]

Jesus Christ.

[Elena]

The man thanked him for the warning, then drove off. I'm sure that man's probably like, what? Yeah. And to tap on the window with the bloody knife to say that you're a psychopath.

[Ash]

No, he absolutely is.

[Elena]

To the detectives, the whole story seemed bizarre. And Mosley was so forthcoming that they wondered whether he was even telling the truth. They were like, is this real? Like. But he had no reason to lie. And he seemed to know too much about the murder to be a false confession. So there was little doubt that Winston Mosley had killed Kitty Genovese. But that wasn't all. After he'd finished confessing to the robberies around Queens and the murder of Kitty Genovese, he also confessed to murdering 24 year old Annie Mae Johnson a week earlier. The details of that one are remarkably similar to those of Kitty's murder. When they asked why he'd done it, the best explanation Winston could come up with was that he gave in to urges to kill and rape. Well, put him away.

[Ash]

Yeah, forever.

[Elena]

Bye. Bye.

[Ash]

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[Elena]

When Mosley was done giving his confession, Detective Carroll went to the phone to call prosecutor Phil Chedda to inform him that they'd likely solved two recent murders. Chetta listened to Carol's story, but after he heard the details of the Johnson murder, he stopped the detectives and explained that Mosley was wrong. He claimed he'd shot Annie Mae Johnson when, in fact, she had been stabbed to death.

[Ash]

Oh, so he was just trying to get credit for a murder?

[Elena]

Well, when Carol confronted Mosley with the discrepancy, Winston looked unsurprised. Then, in the same flat tone he'd had all night, he simply said, I shot her.

[Ash]

So it's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Elena]

Now? This is wild. So when the autopsy was initially conducted on Annie Mae Johnson, the coroner had to contend with the fact that she had been badly burned across large parts of her body, which obscured some of her injuries. After having the body exhumed and X rayed, the coroner discovered that, indeed, his original cause of death, death, had been wrong. The X rays clearly showed six.22 caliber bullets in Johnson's body.

[Ash]

Holy.

[Elena]

When he had originally conducted the autopsy, the entrance wounds had been so small that he'd mistaken them for puncture wounds caused by something like an ice pick. Thus, he had listed it as stabbing.

[Ash]

Oh.

[Elena]

This new revelation proved that not only had Winston Mosley killed Kitty Genovese, he had absolutely killed Annie Mae Johnson. Wow. The fact that they said, no, you were wrong, like you told me. He just said, no, I shot her. Like, he's like, go ahead, figure it out. Wow, like what? Now, the murder of Kitty Genovese was a tragic event that scarred the neighborhood that it happened in. But from an objective position. There was little about it that was like outrageously, like out of the ordinary for like a horrible crime, unfortunately, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't. It was horrible, but it was like a horrible crime. And had it not been for the news coverage that followed, it likely, probably would have been one of those that we found. And we're like, why didn't we know about this? You know what I mean? Like, it would have got like totally obscured in other things. Right? In fact, in the week that followed Kitty's death, the murder made the paper a handful of times reporting basic facts. Then came Martin Ganzberg's now notorious New York Times article that changed the. The narrative entirely. Published on March 27, 1964, Gainsburg's Article 37 who saw murder, didn't call the police, ignored most of the facts of Kitty's murder and instead focused on a misunderstanding of the reactions from her neighbors. He wrote, for more than half an hour, 38 respectable law abiding citizens in Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Kew Garden. According to him, Kitty's neighbors not only heard her cries for help, but actively ignored them, knowing that she was being violently assaulted. He said, if we had been called when he first attacked, the woman might not be dead. Now that's. He had quoted a police chief as saying that it seems unlikely that Martin Ginsburg was acting like in bad faith when he wrote the article. Instead, the article was assigned to him by an editor. Okay, Abe Rosenthal, who had been fed the misinformation by New York City Police Police Commissioner Michael Murphy. So this is not like one guy who just.

[Ash]

It's a game of telephone.

[Elena]

It's a game of telephone. But it was misinformation that was given. Yeah. And then spewed out. Right.

[Ash]

I remember, like, because when you go over it, they're like, it's. Yeah, it's not real. Like they're trying to say the bystander effect is not real.

[Elena]

Exactly. Now, in reality, no one saw Kitty getting attacked the second time.

[Ash]

Right. Because they wouldn't have been able to.

[Elena]

At most, people heard her cries for help, and when they went to see what was going on, she had already moved behind the building and couldn't be seen. As for no one calling the police, that was also untrue. Several people called the police that night. But not knowing exactly what was happening, the reports were marked low priority. And police didn't respond as they would have if they knew she was being actively murdered. Now, regardless of the facts, the story seemed to speak to the people of New York, many of who, like Kitty's parents, were concerned about the changing composition of the neighborhoods and what they thought was as rising crime rates. Journalist Joe Sexton wrote, the killing of Kitty Genovese was first a tragedy, then a symbol, then a bit of a durable urban mythology. That is to say, the story, as the New York Times presented it, confirmed what a lot of people already believed, that crime rates were skyrocketing and it was becoming unsafe to live in these neighborhoods. Yeah. And that all of this stuff resulted in an extreme form of apathy, that they. That they were really making people feel like people are being apathetic as a whole. And it prevented them from even doing anything to intervene for this poor woman right now. To the editor, Abe Rosenthal, the story had very little to do with Kitty at all and was, in fact, all about the state of American society in the mid-1960s. He wrote in 1999, I was interested only in the manner of her dying. That is the power of the Genovese matter. It talks to us. Not about her, a subject that was barely of fleeting interest to us, but about ourselves, a subject never out of our minds. That's a real thing that was said. I literally.

[Ash]

Did you just see me, like, Ash.

[Elena]

Actively, like, backed up in her seat? Like, it just. It thrust her backwards.

[Ash]

What the fuck?

[Elena]

I can't imagine he. So he's.

[Ash]

I'm actually speechless.

[Elena]

So the whole thing was like, oh, my goodness, we're all becoming apathetic. This is bad. High crime rates. Nobody's gonna interview. And then he's literally like, yeah, I don't care about that woman that got married. Let's talk about apathy. Did you not step right in, the irony of your statement? Did you choke on the irony of that statement? That you're being like, we're all getting apathetic. This is terrible. Everybody, listen to this. Who gives a fuck about that girl? I care about me. It's like, you literally are apathy, my friend. Like, that's insane.

[Ash]

You are literally walking apathy down the street.

[Elena]

The point you just. How'd you miss it?

[Ash]

Like, how can you actually lack that much humanity? And also, like, as a journalist, I'm like, you wrote that down and read it and then published it.

[Elena]

And somebody else was like, good idea. Like, what? Hello? Yeah. Yikes. As author Melissa Jane Hardy put it, Rosenthal's interest was aroused not by the murder victim, but by his fantasy of the reader reading the story, which is a perfect way of saying it. Yeah, she's like, yeah, he didn't care about a murder victim. He had this. This fantasy in his head about somebody reading this story and being enthralled by it.

[Ash]

Then you should read. Then you should write fiction.

[Elena]

Yeah. Fantasy is perhaps the best way to describe his interpretation of this case. To him, it didn't matter that Kitty Genovese had a family, friends, a girlfriend who loved her.

[Ash]

Clearly not.

[Elena]

Or that an entire neighborhood had been literally fucking traumatized by her death and would carry with them them the burden of inaction, however unfairly it had been put upon them. What mattered to him, the only thing that mattered was that people maintained their fear and outrage that drove them to pick up his articles instead of another paper.

[Ash]

That is so outlandish.

[Elena]

Like, that's unbelievable. And just the.

[Ash]

The lack of ethics, babe.

[Elena]

Yeah, that's a crazy one.

[Ash]

The lack of ethics. The lac. Lack of empathy.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

The. Hello.

[Elena]

Yep. Hello. Hello. In the weeks that followed, subsequent articles appeared in different newspapers, like, all over the place, addressing the so called problem of urban apathy.

[Ash]

Did they put him on the COVID of those?

[Elena]

Rosenthal wrote in a March 28 article. Experts in human behavior, such as psychiatrists and sociologists, seemed as hard put as anyone else to explain the inaction of witnesses, citing no one in particular. Rosenthal went on to say most of the witnesses, in attempting to explain their inaction, said they did not want to get involved. So he didn't cite anyone as saying.

[Ash]

That, but he just said everybody said.

[Elena]

That except people had gotten involved.

[Ash]

Right. Somebody yelled out their window.

[Elena]

Many, as soon as they knew what was happening, got called the police.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

When Robert Moser heard Kitty's cries for help, he shouted at the man he believed was only harassing her. But he got involved when he thought somebody was just harassing her. Yeah. Causing Winston Mosley too briefly flee the scene for.

[Ash]

For 10 minutes.

[Elena]

The only reason Moser didn't go down to see what was happening was that he saw Kitty stand up and begin walking towards the door. And he said he just believed she was all right.

[Ash]

Right.

[Elena]

Also, the moment Sophia Farr learned that Kitty was in trouble, she raced down the stairs and held Kitty in her arms, offering her comfort and kindness and, like, just somebody being there in her final moments of light. That's the thing.

[Ash]

There was a lot of humidity.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Like, we can't take a lot away.

[Elena]

From, like, the fact of the matter was, if there was an action, it was on the part of law enforcement. Yeah. Who couldn't be bothered to find out what the fuck was going on until it was too fucking late.

[Ash]

Yeah, like that's the reality.

[Elena]

It's the truth. It is the truth. But none of that mattered to the people that were saying this. Like, to Rosenthal, all that mattered to him was that people kept reading what he was saying and he kept building a name for himself. Yeah. In the weeks and months that followed, he continued to push the apathy narrative, determined to find, you know, a way to ride this wave of attention as far as he could. In May of that year, he published a long form article in the paper titled Study of the Sickness of Apathy, where he summarized the public reaction to learning of the inaction of the Genovese case, saying, what the devil do you expect in a town, a jungle like this, Sir. Go elsewhere. Just go away. In a matter of months, this story had been changed. They had taken a tragic story of a brutal murder in Queens and made it it into an alarmist statement of the decline of urban society. And she got totally lost. Which is.

[Ash]

He didn't give a about.

[Elena]

Yeah. In his autobiography, Rosenthal wrote of Kitty. Her name, once known only to her family and the people she served at the bar, has taken on an instantly understood meaning to all who have heard it.

[Ash]

I'm gonna make a broad statement, but I feel pretty confident about it. Does he hate women? I feel like he hates women. I'm just getting woman hater vibes.

[Elena]

It's not great, but feels appropriate. Yeah. You. Yeah.

[Ash]

Like what? Can you imagine writing that about? About any person who has lived? Yeah, like that. That doesn't suck. But a murder victim who was in their, like, mid-20s when they were brutally stabbed and like, sexually assaulted.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

Nobody would have known her name.

[Elena]

Name.

[Ash]

Nobody would have known your name if you didn't insert your dumb self into this.

[Elena]

Well, that's. It's like this all just fit their world view that. Like that. It didn't matter if it was true or not. This fit the world view that they had of what was going on. And so people, they just accepted it. And anyone else who had that world for you also accepted this as like, yup, confirmation of what I've been saying.

[Ash]

That's just a fucking crazy feeling for anyone else.

[Elena]

They simply just accepted what they heard in passing. Life in the city had become so hard and so bad that people were even afraid, too afraid to intervene to save the life of a young woman being attacked in front of them on the street. That was the message for decades. That was the story of Kitty Genovese. Not one of a young woman cut down in the prime of her fucking life, but one of urban apathy and cowardice. And it would remain that way until someone finally decided to ask some more probing questions and say, wait a minute.

[Ash]

How could this have possibly happened?

[Elena]

Now, following his arrest and arraignment, Winston Mosley was briefly held in a psychiatric hospital where he was evaluated and deemed to be sane.

[Ash]

Wow, that's even scarier.

[Elena]

Worse, in June 1964, Mosley went on trial for the murder of Kitty Genovese, where he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. I was like, you were justified. You were literally deemed sane by that point. He had been charged with Annie Mae Johnson's murder the month before Kitty's death and the murder of 15 year old Barbara Cralin in Queens the previous July.

[Ash]

This guy is a crazy person.

[Elena]

Which we. I want to go back and try to look further into those two cases, so we'll touch upon that again. As evidence of his insanity, Mosley's lawyer cited his client's willingness to confess to the crimes despite the lack of evidence that conclusively tied him to the murders.

[Ash]

It's a wild, weird thing to do, but it's not insane.

[Elena]

But it's not insane. Regardless of his explanation and admittedly bizarre behavior, less than a week after the trial began, he was found guilty of murder and sentenced. Sentenced to death, but that was eventually commuted to life in prison. Four years later, he broke away from a prison guard in Buffalo, New York, and escaped from jail briefly before being recaptured and returned to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, New York. Phew. In the years that followed, he appealed his case and repeatedly petitioned for parole, but was denied each time. During his final hearing for parole in 2015.

[Ash]

Holy sh.

[Elena]

What? The parole board declined his petition, writing, you still minimized the gravity of your behavior and did not exhibit much insight. And for that reason, they believed he was not fit for release.

[Ash]

That many years later, they still said, you're not showing any.

[Elena]

He was 80 years old and still not showing remorse.

[Ash]

That's next level.

[Elena]

The following year, he died of natural causes at age 81.

[Ash]

Rest in distress.

[Elena]

Winston Mosley's death probably would have gone unnoticed had it not coincided with the release of the Witness, a documentary by filmmaker James Solomon and Kitty's brother Bill. Oh, okay. After spending decades watching his sister's life and tragic death be exploited for the sake of a cynical social critique like brought up in psychology classes as like, you know, Bill Genovese decided it was time to correct the record once and for all. He said, there was a lot of things we discovered of the 11 years of research that he and Solomon had done for the film, he said, but basically the most fundamental thing was that the 38 eyewitness story and three attacks facts was not true. Which is wild.

[Ash]

That's gotta just shatter your brain, especially as somebody related to the case.

[Elena]

Well, in this poor. This poor family, her poor family and friends and Marianne were told that 38 of her neighbors didn't watch this happen and didn't give a about her. Yeah, like that would have been maddening. I can't imagine that.

[Ash]

And that also is going to change your view on society and the way.

[Elena]

That you interact with it. Probably shaped a lot thought of it now. Most important to Genovese was learning that contrary to popular belief, his sister hadn't been callously ignored that night. And in fact, there was someone with her in the final moments of her life.

[Ash]

And it's like that could have provided that family so much comfort had they known that.

[Elena]

And he said that. Bill said that. He said that was enormous. It was such a relief. Of course, it was about Sophia Far Far's actions that night. He said, my only regret is that my parents were not able to understand that that was the case. They would have been, I'm sure, somewhat relieved to have known that somebody was there. And not only somebody, it was a friend of hers.

[Ash]

Of course they would have been relieved by that.

[Elena]

In the course of their research, Solomon and Genovese found many people who continued to carry not only the trauma of that night, but also the memory of his sister were still telling them like she was this amazing person, and that's not what is being told here. In telling their story and in celebrating the life of his sister, Bill Genovese started a larger conversation that ultimately questioned this myth of urban apathy and corrected the record when it came to the life and death of Kitty Genovese. As for Marianne, whose life was irreparably altered that night, like I said, she eventually managed to heal a little bit from the trauma of her loss and built a life for herself working as a statistical analyst. Wow. Good for her. In 1997, she retired with her partner in Rutland, Vermont, but she carried Kitty's memory with her until her death in April 2024. Oh, just happened.

[Ash]

I'm glad she lived such a long life.

[Elena]

In 2004, she was so happy. In 2004, Marianne spoke to the press for the first time about her relationship with Kitty, during which the interviewer asked, if Kitty hadn't died that night, would they still be together? And she said I think Kitty would probably own a bar, and I think she would be happy. And then she paused for a second and added, we both would. I was about to cry. No, I get it. Then she paused for a second and said, we would both be.

[Ash]

Of course they'd be happy.

[Elena]

Which just like. Like.

[Ash]

Yeah.

[Elena]

For her to have to, like, sit there and think about, like, what life could be with the person you love so much and taken from you, like, that they had their whole lives ahead of them.

[Ash]

Those are the questions that it's like, is that appropriate to ask?

[Elena]

Yeah, it's like. And I can see, like, both sides of that. I know, I know. I don't know. I don't know if it is.

[Ash]

It's like, if she had her partner, that's really kind of disrespectful.

[Elena]

Well, that's. That's the other thing.

[Ash]

You know what I mean?

[Elena]

Yeah, that's the thing.

[Ash]

And it's.

[Elena]

It's also. Was single, like, absolutely. You know what I mean? Like, to be like, do you think you would still be together? But even that is, like, it's kind.

[Ash]

Of disrespectful to her to put her in that position.

[Elena]

She also is diving into something that would be so hard to access, which is like, hey, go back and pull out all your hopes and dreams for your life together that you had to put down.

[Ash]

Down, down, down.

[Elena]

Put to the side. Yeah. When that. That was torn away from you that.

[Ash]

You literally had to bury and tell.

[Elena]

Me, would you still be together? Like, that's a lot for her to have to access in that moment.

[Ash]

I understand.

[Elena]

I understand the question itself. I. I don't know.

[Ash]

That's got to have the impact.

[Elena]

I'm not saying the person who asked it was trying to. No, I'm not either a dick, but I just. That question, I'm like, ooh, that hurt my heart. And I. And I just don't think. I don't know. It just doesn't feel like something I need to. I don't need to know that.

[Ash]

It's not my business.

[Elena]

It's her. It's. It's her feelings.

[Ash]

I just think that sometimes people can be a lot more tactful with the way they interview.

[Elena]

For sure, sure.

[Ash]

You know, and that's a great example of it. I don't think the intent was bad.

[Elena]

But I'm just like, yeah, it's not. Not the bad thing. It's just the outcome, the execution of it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not great. And I just feel like she. I just didn't I don't know.

[Ash]

That's not. That's not for us.

[Elena]

She wanted to access that, then she. She can access that.

[Ash]

Exactly.

[Elena]

I don't know if I don't want to, like, force someone to access that. Kind of a little exploitative, but I think Kitty Genovese sounded like the coolest lady ever. I wanted to. I would hang with her.

[Ash]

Absolutely.

[Elena]

Second, the whole time I was reading this and stuff about her, I was like, damn, like, what?

[Ash]

Sounds like a great girl.

[Elena]

What a cool girl. And then Marianne sounds like such a badass. And I feel like hanging in their apartment would be so cool with, like, her painting and her Kitty reading and talking astrology. Just talking astrology, cooking. They would have been all kinds of cool. We would have been, like.

[Ash]

We would have been tight.

[Elena]

I feel like they just sound. Had we come.

[Ash]

Had we crossed paths back then, they.

[Elena]

Just sounded like they were. She was taken away from. From a lot of people and people who didn't even know her yet. She was taken away from potential friends that she probably would have had everywhere.

[Ash]

I'm so happy, like you said, in the middle of that, that they had that little bubble for even the amount of time that they did.

[Elena]

Like, I'm.

[Ash]

That's.

[Elena]

That's a.

[Ash]

Such a special connection, and I'm glad.

[Elena]

That her brother was it in, like.

[Ash]

Set the Record Straight.

[Elena]

Like, Solomon was able to. They were able to, like, dive in and be like, no, she wasn't callously ignored. Because it's an awful thing to think about for your loved one. Yeah, well, to think that her parents thought that she was just callously ignored as she was brutally killed and that no one was with her when she died. When in reality, Sophia Farrar was holding her and Hope and whispering to her to make sure she knew she was with her.

[Ash]

That's a good person right there.

[Elena]

I feel like sometimes we, like, always look. Want to look. A lot of people want to look for the worst for the hole in the donut. The hole in the donut. I tell my kids that all the time.

[Ash]

Don't look for the hole.

[Elena]

It is. My nanny is. And my grandmother. It was. She would always say, don't stop looking for the hole in the donut. Like, there's a whole bunch of donut around that hole, and you're not even looking at it.

[Ash]

I love that.

[Elena]

And I tell the kids that all the time when they're being negative.

[Ash]

I'm going to take that when I.

[Elena]

Have kids, and it's like. Like, sometimes people are great. Yeah. Sometimes that is true.

[Ash]

And sometimes human interactions are great.

[Elena]

Yeah. Sometimes people are terrible, but sometimes there's. People will surprise you.

[Ash]

Well, the sad thing is, it's like there are so many instances of humans being terrible to each other.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

When there is an instance of connection, let's expose that for what it is. And let's. Let's, like, hold that deer, not try to flip it on its head.

[Elena]

Exactly. And it sounds like, you know, people did. Did act. It wasn't inaction. It was just a tragic, tragic, awful. Winston Mosley can go himself 100 rest in distress.

[Ash]

Yeah, you.

[Elena]

Because the fact that he came back. Go. The fact that he scared off and then came back is really scary.

[Ash]

It's also just like. That's a predator.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

What's your fun fact?

[Elena]

So most people are petting cats the wrong way.

[Ash]

How am I supposed to pet my cat?

[Elena]

Apparently, research shows that they will tolerate it for food and attention. Like they're just dealing with it. But the safest spots to do it are under their chin. Oh. Their cheeks and the base of their ears. The worst. Their belly and the base of their tail.

[Ash]

Oh, that makes sense. None of my cats except Remy like being pet and on the belly.

[Elena]

Yeah.

[Ash]

And I always do behind their ears.

[Elena]

There you go. Know. Oh, yeah.

[Ash]

I love knowing that.

[Elena]

Yeah. So get them under the chin and the cheeks.

[Ash]

The base of their tail makes so much sense because once you start going to a cat's tail, it's like the most sensitive part of their body.

[Elena]

That makes sense. Yeah. So, yeah.

[Ash]

Thanks for that.

[Elena]

Pet your cat accordingly.

[Ash]

Pet your cat.

[Elena]

Correct. Come correct.

[Ash]

Well, with that, we hope you keep.

[Elena]

Listening, and we hope you keep it.

[Ash]

Weird, but not so weird that you try to, like, turn things into something that they're not when they actually, actually were quite all right.

[Elena]

Yeah, it's pretty wild. Yeah.

[Ash]

It's a weird thing to do. Gives weird vibes.

[Elena]

It does.

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[Elena]

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