The Points Guy: Airlines Make More Money Selling Miles Than Flying Planes

Summary

Morning Brew Daily: The Points Guy – Airlines Make More Money Selling Miles Than Flying Planes

Date: July 2, 2026
Hosts: Neal Freyman & Toby Howell
Guest: Brian Kelly (The Points Guy)

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Episode Overview

In this special interview episode, the Morning Brew Daily team sits down with Brian Kelly—better known as The Points Guy—to unpack the world of credit card points, travel industry trends, and the surprising economics behind airlines’ loyalty programs. The conversation blends practical travel tips, industry insights, and light banter, touching on everything from the best airports to philosophical debates about window vs. aisle seats. If you’re contemplating your next rewards card or international trip, this fast-paced episode is packed with actionable advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Brian Became The Points Guy

• Origin Story: Brian started optimizing travel points as a child with his dad in the ’90s, later leveraging travel and points during his corporate career at Morgan Stanley.
  • “Before the points guy, I was the points kid.” – Brian Kelly (04:20)
• Blogging Beginnings: Started as a points-based travel “agent,” charging friends to book award trips before launching the now-famous blog in 2010. (04:44–06:00)

2. The Evolution of Points & the Credit Card Arms Race

• Points Today vs. the Past: While people have long complained that “points are dead,” Brian insists there’s never been a better time to play the game.
  • “In 2010… things were actually really great. But people called it dead… It was actually the heyday.” – Brian Kelly (05:40)
• Rise of Premium Cards: Chase disrupted Amex’s reign with the Sapphire Preferred and then Reserve, launching a frenzy for lucrative sign-up bonuses and metal cards with high “plunk factor.”
  • “Chase ran out of metal. So there was a population of people that were getting a plastic card and, and…they were livid.” – Brian Kelly (08:18)
• The Market Today: Now, there’s more competition than ever—Amex, Chase, Capital One, Bilt, Wells Fargo, Citi, and more all aggressively courting consumers with richer offers and opportunities to earn on spends like rent and mortgage. (09:25–10:13)

3. Why Airlines Love Loyalty (More Than Planes)

• Profit Center Shift:
  • “The big airlines make more money selling miles to credit cards than they do flying airplanes. I want everyone to let that sink in.” – Brian Kelly (00:27, 13:50)
  • COVID accelerated the reliance on loyalty programs—airlines sold billions in future miles to survive.
• The Delta Example: The Amex-Delta partnership is so prolific, it reportedly handles 1% of US GDP in transactions. (14:13)
• What This Means: Airlines with weak loyalty programs (Spirit, JetBlue) struggle, while those investing in loyalty thrive—even in crises.

4. Are Premium Card Fees Too High?

• Despite escalating annual fees (some approaching $1,000), cardholders are willing to pay for lounge access, elite rewards, and customer service.
  • “The market will market.” – Brian Kelly (10:26)
• Perks Beyond Points: Many don’t realize the consumer protections: e.g., travel delay insurance, reimbursements, etc.
  • “If you have a six-hour delay, you get $500 a person, go get a hotel room.” – Brian Kelly (11:00)
• The U.S. remains the most lucrative place in the world for credit card rewards.
  • “If you’re not using a credit card and earning points, you’re helping fund it for everyone else.” – Brian Kelly (11:42)

5. What’s Next for Cheap Flights?

• Discounter Demise: As budget airlines falter, is cheap domestic travel doomed? Not at all, says Kelly—cheap fares still exist, especially if you’re clever with how you search.
  • “Search on a Tuesday at midnight… is BS.” – Brian Kelly (15:40)
• Smart Search Tips: Use Google Flights’ “Explore” function and set alerts; consider alternate airports or positioning flights that start from cheaper cities. (16:07–18:11)
• Big Picture: Even with inflation and instability, airfare is affordable in historical and international terms.

6. Tall Traveler Problems & Cabin Class Psychology

• At 6'7", Brian’s journey began as a quest for exit rows and comfort. Ironically, even business class isn’t always comfortable for the tall.
  • “Once you start turning left on an airplane and once you start sitting in business… it will become expensive to keep the hobby up.” – Brian Kelly (20:25)
• Advice: If you’re content with premium economy, don’t start tasting the perks of business—“it will ruin you.” (21:31)

7. Airport Preferences & Travel Philosophy

• Best Airports: Globally, Singapore and Doha top Brian’s list for efficiency and amenities. In the U.S., it’s all about easy in-and-out (e.g., Palm Springs). (23:13–23:51)
• Dress Code: Comfort first—just dress appropriately for mixed company.
  • “Just be clothed, you know, set the bar low.” – Brian Kelly (22:18)
• Window vs. Aisle: A window is for the assertive, aviation geeks, or sleepers. The aisle’s all about a “weak bladder.”
  • “If you’re an aisle person, you have a weak bladder.” – Brian Kelly (24:17)
  • “I think window people are more assertive.” – Brian Kelly (24:24)

8. Travel Influencer Culture: Inspiration or Annoyance?

• Brian sees travel influencers as a positive (when done right), expanding perspective and access to information—just make sure you’re following creators who dive deep, not just post beach shots.
  • “If you’re not inspired, find better influencers.” – Brian Kelly (26:56)
• Backlash Against Tourists: Anti-tourism anger (e.g., in Barcelona) should be directed at policymaking, not visitors. Locals can and should advocate for better regulation.
  • “Instead of assaulting tourists… insult your government. Every government has the ability to control.” – Brian Kelly (27:43)

9. Off-the-Beaten Path Destinations & EU Citizenship

• Tip: Don’t just follow the herd to Europe mid-summer. Explore less crowded (and often cheaper) gems like Argentina in winter, South America, or Japan (a particularly good value right now).
  • “Going to Paris in July… is not it.” – Brian Kelly (28:31)
• On Becoming Portuguese: Brian describes navigating Portugal’s Golden Visa as a way to secure EU citizenship for travel flexibility and a “plan B.” (29:31–30:50)

10. Souvenirs & Family Travel

• For memorable souvenirs: skip the tchotchkes. If you have young travelers, ask airlines for free swag like kids’ kits or plane models. Otherwise, celebrate with local experiences, not stuff.
  • “Spend it at the bar. Spend it on a good experience with friends.” – Brian Kelly (31:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Airlines’ Real Business:
  • “The airlines make more money from their loyalty programs.” – Brian Kelly (00:27, 13:50)
• On “Dead” Points:
  • “Every year, there’s always so many people saying, points are dead… but people just needed to learn the system.” – Brian Kelly (05:40)
• On Metal Cards Mania:
  • “…there was a population of people that were getting a plastic card and they were livid.” – Brian Kelly (08:18)
• On American vs. International Credit Card Scene:
  • “There is no more lucrative credit card ecosystem than the U.S.” – Brian Kelly (11:34)
• On Cabin Class Addiction:
  • “Once you start lying flat, it’s over.” – Brian Kelly (21:31)
• On Anti-Tourism Anger:
  • "Don't blame tourists, blame your government." – Brian Kelly (27:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:38] – Brian Kelly’s origin story: How he became The Points Guy
• [05:25] – The evolution of credit card points and the “platinum age” of travel
• [08:18] – Launch of the Chase Sapphire Reserve, metal card frenzy
• [10:13] – The modern credit card arms race and earning on rent/mortgage
• [13:50] – Airlines make more money from loyalty programs than flights
• [16:07] – Debunking myths: Tuesday midnight searches, incognito mode
• [18:11] – How to use Google Flights for smarter, cheaper travel
• [20:25] – Tall traveler challenges and business class dangers
• [22:18] – Airport fashion etiquette
• [23:13] – Best airports for long layovers: Singapore, Doha, and US picks
• [24:17] – Aisle vs. window seat: What your choice says about you
• [25:53] – Is travel influencer culture good or bad for travel?
• [27:43] – Over-tourism and who to blame
• [29:31] – Why Brian pursued EU citizenship via Portugal
• [31:17] – The best souvenirs for travelers (hint: not tchotchkes)

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Additional Tips & Resources

• Travel Tech: Use Google Flights “Explore” and fare alerts to find bargains.
• Points Philosophy: Reevaluate your card perks and annual fees often—maximizing value is easier than you think.
• Family Travel Hack: Ask flight attendants for airline swag for kids (or avgeek friends).
• For Inspiration: Follow travel creators who offer depth and authenticity.

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This episode delivers both big-picture industry analysis and hands-on advice for getting more out of your travel—and your spending. If you want to maximize points, avoid travel pitfalls, and even ponder EU citizenship, Brian Kelly offers strategies with energy, humor, and candid wisdom.

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For more on points, travel hacks, and summer destinations, check out The Points Guy’s new travel summer hub (and enter their 250,000 Rove miles giveaway).

Transcript

[Toby Howell]

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[Brian Kelly]

We're living in the platinum age of travel. It's like all about loyalty. Loyalty is what these, these airlines make more money. The big airlines make more money selling miles to credit cards than they do flying airplanes. I want everyone to let that sink in. The airlines make more money from their loyalty programs.

[Neal Freyman]

Good Morning Brew Daily Show. I'm Neal Freyman.

[Toby Howell]

And I'm Toby Howell.

[Neal Freyman]

Today we're talking points, credit cards and travel with the points guy.

[Toby Howell]

You're gonna wanna hold off on booking that August vacation until you listen to this. It's Thursday, July 2nd. Let's ride.

[Neal Freyman]

No standard news show today since the office is closed ahead of July 4th, but we may have something even more useful for you. An interview with the points guy. Brian Kelly, AKA the points guy, reinvented the conversation around credit cards, helping millions of people save money and travel smarter by accruing points. So we talked to Brian about points because that's interesting as heck, but also about the latest in the travel industry because this guy is pretty much always on an airplane or in a hotel.

[Toby Howell]

We also got into a philosophical debate about what being a window or an aisle person says about your character and whether you should dress up when going to the airport. It is a fun conversation, but first, a word from our sponsor, Ultra Running.

[Neal Freyman]

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[Toby Howell]

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[Neal Freyman]

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[Toby Howell]

Now here's the points guy. Brian, thanks so much for joining us.

[Brian Kelly]

Thanks for having me.

[Toby Howell]

All right, first question. How did you become the points guy?

[Brian Kelly]

Well, it started in 2010. I was working at Morgan Stanley. I was there 2007. I got a job there doing recruiting. So I was in college recruiting for technology. Of course. It was like six months after I started the bottom blew out of the entire financial industry. And so I spent years working there. I actually was getting promoted, but if you're in HR during the Great Recession, like, you're a nobody. And I think I remember my managing director would look at me and laugh and be like, your bonus this year is not getting laid off. Come back again next year. So, you know, I'm in my 20s, New York City, just trying to get ahead. I've always been really good at points. I started doing it with my dad in the 90s. So really before the points guy, I was the points kid. He was a road warrior. I figured out when I was 12 how to use his points. So that's like the shortened version of I had been doing points in the 90s, figured out in college when I was student body president, traveling, that there was like this whole underworld of travelers. So pre Reddit, there was a psych still around called Flyer Talk. So I discovered flyer talk in 2004 and like, holy crap. This stuff that I've been doing with my dad, there's like people around the world that do this. So I was into the points game. Then I get a job at Morgan Stanley where I'm traveling nonstop. And mind you, 2008, 2009, even though it was a crisis, this is when Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, they are competing for top tech talent. So even at Morgan Stanley, my job was to convince the top grads. And so they basically gave me a corporate Amex with no limit and was like, do whatever you need to do. So not only am I traveling, I'm spending tons of money on my corporate Amex learned that I could pay 100 bucks a year to get those points. So I was like, bro, but points rich. And I was traveling the world, jet setting. And finally in 2010, after another year of, like, you know, no increase in wages or whatever, I started the points guys, like a side hustle. So it was not a blog at first. It was just a. I was a travel agent. For points, I charge you. I was helping people all the time, book trips and save them thousands of dollars. My friends were like, you should charge people. So I started just charging people 50 bucks a ticket. You know, come home from Work, do my little travel agent thing. It was like a couple hundred bucks or a thousand bucks, which was helpful. I started blogging. A friend of mine was like, you, this is 2010. He's like, you have to blog. He was like, foaming at the mouth. He was an SEO expert, which at the time, I had no idea what that meant. And it was like, 2011 is when I kind of stumbled into affiliate marketing. And that changed my life.

[Neal Freyman]

And overnight, how is the concept of points changed from when you started in the 90s and 2000 till now? Was there like an inflection point? Is it. Was it like the Chase Reserve, that card that had this crazy intro bonus that everyone seemed to jump on?

[Brian Kelly]

What's funny, I joke that we're currently in, you know, the golden age of travel was the 60s and 70s, the age of jet travel. Well, I joke that we're actually starting from 2010 onward. There was this huge shift, you know, pre2010, Chase didn't. Chase launched her Sapphire Preferred in 09 very quietly. And actually promoting the preferred, which is, you know, the $95 a year card. That was actually one of the ways that I was able to leave Wall street because no one knew about the preferred. Chase had poached a ton of Amex. And Chase came up with this. Hey, let's go head to head with Amex. Amex for many years was the ruler of all things, like, you know, premium credit card transferable points. So talk about being right time, right place. Here I am, as blogging as a form of influence really starts to arise. The points guy. My main audience was, you know, consultants, you know, millennial consultants who were traveling and spending big and were future higher earners. Right? And that's what the banks wanted to get in front of. To answer your question, it's funny because at every point in time, every year, there's always so many people saying, points are dead. In 2010, when I started the points guy, which, as we have foresight now to look back, things were actually really great. But people called it dead blackout dates. You know, you can't use points anymore. All these crybabies. And when I started the points guy, I finally was like, okay, all these moronic travel experts who don't even know points going on Good Morning America saying, points are dead. It's all blackout dates. It was actually the heyday, but people just needed to learn how to, like, you know, and the airline websites, I mean, in 2026, they're still broken. In 2010, you couldn't really book awards so it was complicated, but there has always been opportunity for those who decide to spend a little bit of time and learn the system. And that is the same today. Today I would argue that it's the platinum age. Even better, because you can now earn points on rent, mortgage, all of these crazy categories that we could only dream about in. So the industry is evolving at the same time there's inflation happening. So if you just look at one piece of the points puzzle, you might say, oh, flights today are just so much more expensive, it's not worth it. But that's not the case. You just need to work a little bit harder.

[Toby Howell]

If you could go back in 2010, like right when you first pressed publish on your first blog, what would surprise you the most about what the industry has turned into in the ensuing years?

[Brian Kelly]

I mean, there's just incredible competition. I mean, the fact that today we've got Chase is a behemoth, you know, and you know, the Sapphire preferred helped launch the points guy. And in 2016, because I had been working with Chase for years as a trusted partner, the points guy was the exclusive launch partner for the Sapphire. I knew about that product months in advance and we worked with them to make that viral. It ran out of metal. It's a Harvard Business, you know, case study today.

[Toby Howell]

Wait, wait, wait.

[Neal Freyman]

I can't believe I never got that car.

[Toby Howell]

No, no, I want to hear about this they ran out of metal story. I don't know.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, it was so, so popular. I knew, you know, Chase, the Sapphire Reserve blew up the industry in that how lucrative it was triple points on travel and dining when it launched in 2016, 100,000 point bonus. Chase points were really valuable. You know, one to one transfers to Hyatt, to United, to all these really rich partners. And so many people got the card that Chase ran out of metal. So there was a population of people that were getting a plastic card and, and part of it's called in the industry the plunk factor. Now we all use our digital payments, but in 2016, if you got your hands on the Sapphire card, at that point, platinum, they also switched to metal after everyone else was getting into metal. But the Sapphire card, it was the cool card to get triple points on dining. I mean, it was the cultural moment. So there was a small portion of people that got the plastic card and they were livid.

[Toby Howell]

Low plunkability.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, the plunk factor. So short answer is, I would be shocked at just how many options there are today. And it is still a bonanza for consumers. So if you're listening to this. Do not think the points game is over. It is just evolving.

[Neal Freyman]

Yeah. So fast forward to today. We have Amex and Chase in a full out arms race.

[Brian Kelly]

They're charging nearly, you know, Capital One. Capital One, Capital One. You know, in 2019 they started doing transfer partners, you know, Bilt and Cardless. Bilt has built up a huge and full of disclosure. I'm a Bilt advisor investor from the beginning. But Bilt has completely opened up a new market. We also have, I mean Wells Fargo is still in the game. Citi. Citi launched a premier card, the Strata Elite. So I mean there is a bonanza and no, you know, if you play your cards right, you know, you can get crazy bonuses on every aspect of your life, including you know, rent and mortgage, which to me I never thought there'd be a day where there'd be a credit card where you can earn on rent or mortgage without paying that fee.

[Neal Freyman]

We're seeing, speaking of fees, we're seeing annual fees reach almost $1,000 for these premium credit cards. Do you think there's going to be an upper limit to what people are willing to pay and then go back through what they call the coupon book to figure out how they can actually see those rewards?

[Brian Kelly]

You know, I don't have inside numbers from the Amex is in Chase, but if we look at their, you know, public quarterly reports, they seem to be doing quite well. And my sense is that even though the increases in annual fees people are paying them, I mean I see it in the lounges, there's lines outside those lounges. There's no shortage of people paying. I do think what they're dealing with now is trying to cull it a little bit. It has gotten harder. You can't take guests in like you used to be able to just because they need to manage. They can't just continue to make. You can't create more real estate in an airport. So I think the market, the market will market. I know some people who are getting rid of one of those cards and I say to people, you should, you should always be taking stock of like how much value you're getting. But I would argue most of these cards, it is not that hard to get the annual feedback, especially if you go to the lounge a couple times a year. And what I have to encourage people too, it's not just the points you're earning, but it's also on those premium cards, the customer service when anything goes wrong. You know, the Sapphire reserve card, if you have a six hour delay. You get $500 a person, go get a hotel room. Or if it's an overnight delay, you don't have to beg for the, you know, Motel 6 or whatever, you know, from the airline agent. Your credit card has all these crazy perks and built in. So, you know, I still don't. Just because the fees are going up, it doesn't mean that most people can't easily get the value back. Especially when you consider there's 100,000 plus bonuses on these cards that even if you did, nothing would pay for the annual fee for several years. And mind you like this only exists in America. We are in the greatest land of all for credit cards. And I want people, I think sometimes people forget how good we have it. Talk to any of your friends around the world. There is no more lucrative credit card ecosystem than the U.S. basically, if you're not using a credit card and earning points like you're helping fund it for everyone else. So get off your ass and get in on the game.

[Neal Freyman]

We have a couple questions about the airline industry which you are familiar with. Did Southwest deserve all that criticism for starting to charge for bags and ditching their open seating?

[Brian Kelly]

Well, look, I think any customer can voice their concerns, but I mean their results are rock star, right? It is. You know, Southwest had free bags and they were giving away the bank. And the airline business is a tough business now. Don't, don't get that. I'm not a fanboy of the airlines and I think they do a lot of messed up things. But when you, we live in a capitalistic world. Airlines are owned by shareholders like their obligation is to their shareholders. It is, you know, people are willing to pay and people just want cheap tickets. So you know, the airline consumer, airline economics are really interesting. While people say no, we want full service, no people want cheap ass tickets, period. Like the customers by and large have been are focused on, especially on non premium airlines. Now for premium, premium passengers are different. Right? So if you're going to actually invest in a premium product like Delta and charge a premium, but Southwest can't do that. Southwest doesn't have first class, they don't have lounges. They're not going to be able to charge for premiums. So they need to be able to charge for other things in order to compete because costs are going up. But people are really weird on the budget side with the, with the airfare. They're not paying this premium for Southwest. So they had to figure out a way to kind of get some revenue without being able to charge the premiums like Delta and United.

[Toby Howell]

Speaking of the budget side of things, what are some of the takeaways from the Spirit implosion?

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, I mean it's a reminder

[Neal Freyman]

we're

[Brian Kelly]

living in the platinum age of travel. It's like all about loyalty. Loyalty is what these airlines make more money. The big airlines make more money selling miles to credit cards than they do flying airplanes. I want everyone to let that sink in. The airlines make more money from their loyalty programs. So what airlines are doing the worst in the US right now? Spirit had a horrible loyalty program, did not focus on premium, terrible brand. And in the end, you know, this game is not, it's expensive to fly into laguardia. Increasing costs, increasing jet fuel. So during a crisis, all of these airlines have leaned on their loyalty program to survive. During the pandemic Hilton, you know, even the credit card airlines all sold billions of dollars of future miles to live. So the story is you've got to get in on the loyalty game. JetBlue is struggling. JetBlue for years had a, a snooze fest of a loyalty program. Their co brands are way behind. The customer in the US is sophisticated. You can't roll out a crap loyalty program and credit card and just expect it to be what Amex has built with Delta. The Amex Delta co brand portfolio is incredible. They pioneered, they have the highest margin and they, you know, I've heard stats that 1% of US GDP is put on a Delta Amex card. So. But they have done. That has been a decades long investment. And so the airlines and companies out there who are not investing in loyalty, you are setting yourself up for failure in my opinion.

[Neal Freyman]

So we just heard you say spirit is gone. JetBlue is struggling. So if I'm somebody who's like, I loved being able to fly down to Fort Lauderdale from Boston for $70 and all these discounters are struggling mightily or going the way of the dodo. Like where does that leave me? As someone who is looking around for cheap flights around the United States is. And I see United and Delta moving more into premium, you know, where does that leave me?

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, I'd say there are still cheap flights to be had. When you look at it just adjusting for inflation, airfare is actually not that expensive even internationally. Like you can easily fly to Europe for $500, you know, if you know how to search for airfare. So the first thing you know, there's so many fake influencers now on, you know, doing TikToks like search on a Tuesday at midnight. All of that is bs.

[Toby Howell]

So that is bs, by the way.

[Brian Kelly]

That's.

[Toby Howell]

What about incognito mode?

[Brian Kelly]

Incognito is not going to do it. What will really actually bring prices down is if you actually, you know, if you're an international traveler, if you can start your trips abroad, for example, like if you go, if you have family in South Africa and you go every year, Newark to Joburg is like $9,000 round trip. But if you go Joburg to Newark round trip, it's like 3800, you know, if you. And so these are what we call positioning flights. So if you can use miles to start every trip from Joburg, you're saving like a third, right? So if you, or even in the US flying New York to Paris, it's a bunch of rich people that fly that route, bankers, lawyers that are paying full fare. Air France isn't discounting business class on a route where they are making so much money. But if you go from like Albany, connect to JFK to Paris, that flight is way cheaper because they're, they, they price it based on the starting city and the end city. So doing positioning flights flying out of other airports, that's, that's really where you're going to, you know, get great deals. But learning how to use Google flights free tool google.com flights this is what I tell people. Let technology start searching for the deals for you. If you want to go to Europe this summer, there's still great deals to be had. But if you use one data set like New York to Paris on July 4, you're not going to necessarily find all the deals. So in Google they have an Explore. Click the Explore tab, you put in your home city and then you just put in Europe or Caribbean. So say you just want to get away to the Caribbean for a weekend. It'll show you, you know, you can go. I want to go for a weekend in February. Show me the cheapest flights from New York to the Caribbean. I just want to go somewhere warm and I'll show you a map and you can do nonstop business class and then sniff out sometimes Turks and Caicos I've seen is like 280 bucks. Sometimes just because, right? Like go to Turks instead of anguilla, which is 4x the price, and save that money. So, and then setting alerts. Even if you don't find anything good, set alerts on the routes you fly all the time. If you fly home to see family and so be opportunistic, but use technology. I still believe in general airfare is pretty affordable considering you can travel around the world. You know, everyday people can travel.

[Toby Howell]

We're going to take a quick break, but come back with more Brian Kelly right after this.

[Neal Freyman]

Hey Toby, how's your duck impression?

[Toby Howell]

It's not all it quacked up to be.

[Neal Freyman]

I refuse to engage with a joke that hack.

[Toby Howell]

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[Neal Freyman]

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[Brian Kelly]

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[Toby Howell]

people are listening to this, probably on an audio podcast and they don't know that the points guy is more of like a points man and that you are 6 foot 8 inches tall. Six, seven.

[Brian Kelly]

Six.

[Toby Howell]

Seven.

[Brian Kelly]

Give or take.

[Toby Howell]

I was trying to not make the kids, you know, do the six seven six foot eight. I'll round up for you. Six seven. What is it like being a travel influencer when you're that tall?

[Brian Kelly]

Well, you know, that's why I became the points guy, because I at least needed the exit row. I physically do not fit in a normal seat so me Playing this game back, going back to college. I remember I flew to Europe my first study abroad trip. I didn't know any better. And I was in a normal seat and I remember I had nyquil on me and I was just like chugging Nyquil. I'm like, just like, please make this flight. And someone of course reclined into my knee and I'm like. So I was like, I gotta figure out how to get the better seat. So originally it was just like, how do I get exit rows? But funny enough, you know, a lot of I don't fit in a lot of business class. And this is a warning to anyone out there. So especially once you start playing the points game, business class will become available to you. And once you start turning left on an airplane and once you start sitting in business. And don't get me started on first class, because the international first class, like on Emirates where you can take a shower, they have unlimited caviar. Unlimited dom. Like if you fly any American carrier today and if you're like, ooh, this is fancy, like, pace yourself because what happens is once you start flying real incredible airlines, you know, Japan Airlines, Singapore, it is, it is a world that you can't unsee and it will become expensive to keep the hobby up. So to anyone out there, like, if you're like, hey, premium economy is good with me, I can handle it. Don't start treating yourself to business class because it will ruin. Once you start lying flat, it's over.

[Toby Howell]

I'm in good hands because the day we're recording this, the night before I just came back from a 10 hour flight from Greece. I was in row 40. I didn't.

[Neal Freyman]

You turned right when I got.

[Toby Howell]

No, I turned as far back. I was literally in the last row of the plane. So there is no sirens call of first class for me. I can't even throw a ball up the first class. That's how far back I was.

[Neal Freyman]

All right, let's stay in the airport for. For a few more questions. This administration has encouraged people to dress up when going to the airport or at least look presentable. Are sweatpants acceptable on a plane?

[Brian Kelly]

I think, I mean, look, be comfortable. I think the only thing I would just say is like, I've been in Miami airport where people are in like high heels and bikinis running through the airport. Like, that's a little crazy. Especially in economy. We're touching each other. So my take is, look, just be clothed, you know, set the bar low. In general, like airlines, you might get a really hot flight, but Also, they're really cold, too. And so just dress for. Always have extra layers. You know, just cover your body. In general, don't have crazy T shirts. Just trying to test the rules. Like, you know, we're on airplanes, flight attendants are. You never know what you're going to get. So try not to push the boundaries of what, what's acceptable in society on a tube with other passengers. But yeah, if you want to wear sweatpants, wear sweatpants. Just, you know, I, I think it's, yeah, just be comfortable. First and foremost, if you had to

[Toby Howell]

spend 48 hours or maybe even longer, Tom Hanks style in an airport, what airport would you choose?

[Brian Kelly]

Singapore airport is beautiful. I mean, there's all these different elements. They've got the jewel, they've got a rainforest. It's like. And most importantly, what I love in an airport is just efficiency. From landing at Singapore Airlines, you go through customs and immigration, you don't have to wait in line. Like, I feel so bad for people who visit America where you see those lines. At jfk, where it's three hours to speak to a gruff agent who's going to scream at you. Like in other countries now, it's like, efficient. You're through in 30 seconds. To me, that's a good airport. But Singapore not only has that, but it's like really beautiful. There's, you know, it's like a destination. Doha Airport is also really, really nice.

[Toby Howell]

Any in the US that you like?

[Brian Kelly]

There are any, you know, in the US I like airports where you can get in and out quickly. Palm Springs, when you, when you land in Palm Springs, you get the desert vibe. You get picked up at, you know, and it's close to the city you're going to. I hate landing, like at JFK when it's your, your drive into the city is longer than your flight.

[Neal Freyman]

We're not going to ask you to weigh in on that aisle versus window debate, but let's go one level deeper. What does a preference for a window or aisle reveal about a person's character?

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, so if you're an aisle person, you have a weak bladder. Yeah, that's pretty. Yeah.

[Toby Howell]

You in character, it's more about like

[Brian Kelly]

your biology, I think, you know, window people are aviation geeks. And also window seat, you have control over the window. So, like, if you really need to sleep. And I think window people are more assertive. Like, if you have to get out, like just get out, you have to ask people, like, if you're sitting in a middle or an aisle, part of that is like getting up when the person needs to get out. So I'm a window seat person myself for a lot of reasons, even safety. Like, I've seen like bins on planes open up mid flight, turbulence, stuff falling out. Like, I want to be at the window seat. I've slept in an aisle seat and I've had my kneecaps rammed by the drink cart. People with backpacks, people have no spatial awareness in life, let alone on airplanes smashing you in the face. So even though I'm super tall and if I'm sitting in economy, you'll find me at a window seat in the exit row.

[Neal Freyman]

I think it should be a federal crime if you have a window seat and you keep the. The window closed.

[Toby Howell]

I think.

[Neal Freyman]

How often do you get to be 35,000ft above the Earth and looking around?

[Brian Kelly]

I know, especially on an afternoon flight, like, grow up. People like, but. Or bring. I'm a big believer, like, choose your own destiny. So if you want to sleep, bring an eye mask, bring an eye mask, earplugs, get your noise canceling headphones. There will be children on planes, there will be annoying people. Block it all out. Like, bring your own entertainment system, bring your own iPad loaded. The WI fi is not going to work. The airlines that promise streaming it won't work on your longest flight, I'm telling you that now. So come prepared. And if someone wants to look out the window, so be it.

[Neal Freyman]

Travel influencer culture. Do you think this is a net positive or a net negative for how people experience places?

[Brian Kelly]

I think it's great. I think, look, we all live on our phones, we live on our feeds, where I'm influenced by tons of travel creators who are going to really interesting places. So I think it's, you know, everyone loves to hate on an influencer. I'm personally inspired when I see real influencers who dive deep. This guy, Nick Matic, he's an American, he's gay, and he travels all across Syria and he's been to every country or almost every country. And I think that's fascinating because it breaks down boundaries in my head. I'm like, oh, you're going to get. So often, like, you know, the gay community anywhere in the Middle east, it's like a death trap. They're stoning you, you're being killed. And then it's like, oh, I can actually DM and be like, hey, you feel safe in Damascus? And he's like, dude, I feel safer in Damascus, truly, than in most places in the United States and that. So I think influencers who do more than just doing a gorgeous shot in the Maldives. You know, the idyllic, you know, not sharing locations of where they are, I think, you know, whatever, they have their own business model. But if you're not following travel influencers that are actually teaching you something or pushing, they're out there. Alona E L O N A She's one of my favorites. Her and her husband Jerome. I mean they travel really fantastic. Bhutan, Japan. Like I get so much inspiration because let's be honest, like ChatGPT can help you plan a trip, but like, where else are you going? Guidebooks, you know, Instagram, you know, social media is where we live. So I just say if you're not inspired, find better influencers.

[Toby Howell]

But there's definitely been this backlash, especially in some European countries against tourists. I mean, famously in Barcelona, some locals are spraying tourists with squirt guns because they're basically saying that hey, you're responsible for driving up our rents. This and that. What do you make of kind of this anti tourism backlash that we're seeing across the country?

[Brian Kelly]

I think it's fair, but I think instead of assaulting tourists who are not insult your government, right? Governments can increase taxes, they can not allow new flights into the airport. It is your local government that controls it. But there's a balance, right? These same people attacking tourists, but the tourists pay for their schools and you know, in certain neighborhoods. So look, I don't think it's as simple, but I don't believe in like blaming tourists. Blame your government. Every government has the ability to control, to regulate tour guides, to regulate rideshare, Airbnbs, et cetera. Like, and I get, but you know, in Portugal, I'm actually becoming a Portuguese citizen. I did their golden visa and it was driving up a lot of people were coming in and buying up real estate and everyday people. So what did they do? They lobbied their government and they changed the rules. Luckily I get in right before they all changed and I'm knock on wood, should be a Portuguese citizen soon. But like, look, I can't be mad at, I mean these are the people of their country. So I would just say over tourism is a problem. And to people listening, I, this is a, you know, this is a message. Just try something different and trust me, I'm going to Italy this summer and Portugal and France and I love all these places. But sometimes the best travels you'll have like go to Buenos Aires in August, it's their winter, but it's 60s if you want art, culture, food, going to Paris in July, where there's currently heat waves and no AC is not it. Not only that the euro this summer has lost against the dollar. Japan is still really affordable for due to the currency. But go to South America, I mean Argentina, you can, you can do Argentina off season, ridiculously cheap. Nicaragua, Colombia, there's so many cool places that I think people think summer, let's go to Europe, let's spend a fortune. But I mean even on the luxury side, hotels now normal hotel rooms for four grand for a 250 square foot room. Get out of here.

[Neal Freyman]

What inspired you to be a Portuguese citizen?

[Brian Kelly]

You know, it was 2020 and we were locked up in at home and I was just googling like how do I get EU citizenship? Because I was. And I ran across this Portuguese golden visa program and when I applied it was as low as. And I didn't even buy real estate, I invested in a hotel. So this Marriott, this company called Mercan, they are an investment group and they build like Marriott and Hilton Inns all across. And part of the golden visa was that you could invest as little as €280,000. And it got you your kids, your parents and if you're married, your spouse and their in laws and your in laws, you have to spend one week a year for five years, loan that money. And then once you get your citizenship like eight, nine years later, they actually buy back your original share. So you earn like 1 or 2%. This is not an investment thing. But for me, you know, that was the year of the insurrection. There's a lot of funky things happening in the US then and I'm like, I love the us. I have no current plans to leave, but I'm like having EU citizenship, the ability to live and work anywhere in the EU for the rest of my life and for my family for, you know, I'm able to afford 280. If that went south, my life would not be impacted. So I was, I was, I just applied. They changed it now to 10 years, but you can still do it. Which people think that program's over, but it actually does exist. It just, you have, it's like €500,000 minimum. And you have to do. You can't buy real estate. You have to do an investment vehicle.

[Toby Howell]

Gives you two teams to root for in the World cup too.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, exactly.

[Toby Howell]

Spread your bets a little bit. Yeah. Finally this was just a question I was mulling over as again, I was just in Greece for a wedding and I was trying to figure out what souvenir to buy because you feel like you should buy something when you travel someplace, but then you go by like these tchotchke shops and you're like, do I really need this? So what's a good souvenir to collect from a country that you travel to?

[Brian Kelly]

Well, you know, I have two kids, a one and a half year old and a three and a half year old. So I'm always actually on the airplane. This is a tip most airplanes have. If you have kids in your life or friends or family or even yourself. I mean the airlines will have free kids kits that come with like stuffed animals of the plane. So for the plane geek in your life. Often I'm like, I forget to get my kids actual gifts, but then I realize they're so young. So I always, always ask the flight attendant. So if you've got like nieces, nephews or kids, never hurts to ask. A lot of times they have cool little gifts, but otherwise, yeah, don't buy tchotchkes. Spend it at the bar. Spend it on a good experience with friends. That's because lugging it, getting it through security, it's not really worth it.

[Toby Howell]

I saw Neil's face light up. Even though you're talking about getting it for your kids. Neil's a big plane geek, so I, I didn't know.

[Neal Freyman]

I didn't know that.

[Toby Howell]

My next flight I will look for.

[Neal Freyman]

Yeah, my birthday's coming up.

[Toby Howell]

There you go, Neil. All right, well, thank you so much, Brian for joining us everyone. Check out the points, guys. New travel summer hub. It's got a one stop resource for everything about how to travel better for less. You'll get guidance on destinations to go, point strategies, flights, hotels, road trips, gear, you name it. It's got nine content categories. You put a lot of work into this thing.

[Brian Kelly]

And we're giving out 250,000 Rove miles. Rove miles are among the most valuable miles out there. So enter to win that. That's more than enough for a free trip.

[Neal Freyman]

Very cool. Thanks Brian.

[Brian Kelly]

Thanks for having me.

[Neal Freyman]

Thank you so much. Easy breezy, so fun.

[Brian Kelly]

So you got any. So you're Michigan. What? Anything else this summer?

[Neal Freyman]

I mean we are going to Scotland.

[Brian Kelly]

Oh nice.

[Neal Freyman]

We are just have a few like weekend things. But not July 4th.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah.

[Toby Howell]

Figured out this has been the craziest summer travel.

[Neal Freyman]

Getting married in August.

[Brian Kelly]

Oh, nice.

[Toby Howell]

Yeah. And just.

[Brian Kelly]

Do you have other weddings? Well, you just.

[Toby Howell]

Well, just did. We just did bachelor party. Also Northern Michigan. So we were both there then. Yeah. Greece this past weekend. Going back to Michigan. Then we're going to Scotland.

[Brian Kelly]

Where's the wedding?

[Toby Howell]

The wedding is in upstate New York, so that's a pretty easy trip.

[Brian Kelly]

Are you gonna do honeymoon right away or wait?

[Toby Howell]

No honeymoon? I think Japan, like the next year, kind of in winter, just.

[Neal Freyman]

Cause.

[Brian Kelly]

Yeah, the skiing. The skiing in Japan is. I haven't done it, but apparently it's amazing.

[Toby Howell]

Yeah. My story actually with my fiance, we were. She used to live in D.C. we were eating at a restaurant and you actually walked into the restaurant and I would have thought it was like Kim Kardashian. She'd go,

[Brian Kelly]

where was it that French.

[Toby Howell]

This was like 20. Yeah.

[Brian Kelly]

Like a French restaurant.

[Toby Howell]

Yeah. This was a long time, like 20, 21 or something. Her eyes really got.

[Brian Kelly]

So is she a toaster? Did she?

[Toby Howell]

She was, yeah.

[Brian Kelly]

I think I was there for like my friend Claudia.

[Toby Howell]

I think you were with

[Neal Freyman]

Toby. What do you think about how the music industry is reckoning with AI?

[Toby Howell]

Well, I reckon it's been a doozy.

[Neal Freyman]

That response is exactly why Morning brew partnered with PwC to create a new podcast called the Intelligence Shift. It was made to help industry leaders understand what's happening around AI, why it matters and what to do about it.

[Toby Howell]

Hosted by PwC Chief AI Officer Dan Priest, this eight episode series skips the noisy hype and gets right to what really matters to business leaders.

[Neal Freyman]

A top tier roster of guests joins Preece to share real stories and real lessons learned. Topics range from AI in the music industry to HR's use of AI and scouting top talent.

[Toby Howell]

Hear the stories for yourself. Tune into the Intelligence Shift wherever you get your podcasts.