Joe Scarborough (2:41)

Oh, God.

Jonathan Lemire (2:42)

So excruciatingly close.

Joe Scarborough (2:43)

That's what we don't see. It wasn't close. Yeah. So it wasn't close.

Political Analyst (2:47)

It was close.

Jonathan Lemire (2:48)

Excruciatingly close.

Joe Scarborough (2:49)

Fine. That's horrible. Lot going on. So let's get started. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Thursday, October 2nd. And with us we have the co host of our fourth hour staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemaire. You didn't stay up for it?

Jonathan Lemire (3:04)

Of course I did. I was there.

Joe Scarborough (3:05)

Oh, you're not well. Okay. And that's crazy. Jonathan.

Jonathan Lemire (3:10)

It was a six o' clock game. It wasn't too bad.

Joe Scarborough (3:11)

Okay.

Jonathan Lemire (3:12)

Tonight.

Joe Scarborough (3:12)

You're not going tonight?

Jonathan Lemire (3:13)

No. I know.

Joe Scarborough (3:14)

NBC News national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at Puck, John Hellman, who rolled in at 5:59 30.

Political Analyst (3:23)

Am I here?

Joe Scarborough (3:24)

You're here. That's unusual. On time and always perfect. US Special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the Rest Is Politics podcast, Katie Kay is with us this morning. Thank you all very much. As we enter day two of a government shutdown after lawmakers adjourned yesterday with no resolution on how to reopen the government. A vote to end the shutdown failed again yesterday as Senate Democrats hold on to demands to fund health care, those subsidies that President Trump and Republicans refuse to extend. Senators are not scheduled to vote again until Friday after a break for the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur today. The first shutdown in nearly seven years has disrupted government functions and left hundreds of thousands of workers furloughed. Office of Management and Budget Director Russell Vogt told House Republicans yesterday the White House will begin firing federal employees the next one to two days, according to two GOP sources. At a press briefing, Vice President J.D. vance said firings were imminent. President Trump also commented on them during a TV interview that is set to air tonight.

Jonathan Lemire (4:44)

We are in a government shutdown. We are going to have to lay some people off if the shutdown continues. We don't like that. We don't necessarily want to do it, but we're going to do what we have to to keep the American people's essential services continuing to run well.

Mike (4:58)

There could be firings and that's their fault. And it could also be other things. I mean, we could cut projects that they wanted, favorite projects, and they'd be permanently cut. So you could say a lot of people are saying Trump wanted this, that I wanted this. Closing And I didn't want it, but a lot of people are saying it because I'm allowed to cut things that should have never been approved in the first place.

Joe Scarborough (5:22)

Then last night he posted on social media writing, quote, republicans must use this opportunity of Democrat forced closure. That's interesting there. We'll discuss that. To clear out dead wood, waste and fraud, billions of dollars can be saved. Meanwhile, House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries hit back yesterday saying the Trump administration has been cutting jobs and laying off federal workers since its first day in office. And this shutdown is no.

Rick Wilson (5:54)

These are.

Jonathan Lemire (5:55)

All things that the Trump administration has been doing since January 20, the mass firings of federal workers. Trump administration has been engaging in this since January 20, targeting the clean energy economy. Republicans have been doing that since January 20th and assaulted the clean energy economy and the creation of good paying American.

Rick Wilson (6:16)

Jobs in their one big ugly bill.

Jonathan Lemire (6:20)

Trump administration has been killing jobs. This is a job killing administration. Job creation is down. But you know what's up? Costs.

Joe Scarborough (6:30)

Okay, Jonathan LeMere, let's break this down because watching Republicans message throughout the day yesterday, you would, if you watched and listened to all of them, you'd believe this shutdown is the fault of the Democrats and that they don't want Jeffrey Epstein to be covered. I mean, it goes off into an interesting direction. What is this really about and who does this shutdown really sit on?

Jonathan Lemire (6:55)

Well, let's first, of course underscore the Republicans control the White House. The House.

Joe Scarborough (6:59)

And are they controlling the message, though?

Jonathan Lemire (7:00)

So far they have been. They have been. They've used the bully pulpit of the White House, the president himself. You know, I was, I was told by White House advisors yesterday that a clue as to how they're feeling about things, they feel like they're winning the messaging argument. Is the fact that J.D. vance showed up in the White House briefing room yesterday, the first time he's done that sort of a swaggering appearance suggesting Democrats, Democrats, Democrats are the ones to blame. He didn't stick to the facts all the time in that appearance. But that's the messaging. And Democrats are still trying to. They're on their back heels. The White House feels why the Democrats feel the opposite. They feel like they know, and John Hama will talk about this in a second, that there was a lot of pressure on Minority Leader Schumer after passing on a confrontation in the spring, that now is the moment for the fight. And they feel like health care is the right argument, premiums are going to go up. We had Senator Schumer on Our air yesterday make a convincing case as to why this was the moment and why so many Americans will feel the pain of this shutdown were to persist. But we're also seeing here, Russ Vogt and others in the West Wing potentially seizing this opportunity to finish the mission that Doge began to really clear out what they perceive to be these Democrat deep state loyalists, that this is the moment to gut the government and to keep putting their people in there.

Political Analyst (8:19)

Right. And I think that there's no question that health care is a powerful Democratic argument. It was going to be a powerful Democratic argument regardless of whether the shutdown took place or not.

Jonathan Lemire (8:28)

Right.

Political Analyst (8:29)

There were the cuts that had taken place to Medicaid, the cuts that the Trump budget put into place were going to happen regardless. The shutdown is. The Democrats are trying to tie the shutdown to their demands on health care. That may be a good strategy in the long run. It is certainly the case that health care is a good issue at the moment. Though right now, what it looks like and these messaging wars is you just heard Hakeem Jeffries right there. He was talking about green energy. He was talking about the Trump administration being bad for inflation. He was talking about the Trump administration being job killing. All of those things I think are true. But when you see that bite, it's not the kind of clarity and the kind of focus that you might want in a situation like this, which is really what Republicans do have right now, which is clarity and focus. Democrats did this, and we now have to clear out the dead wood. I don't think that firing people is going to be super popular, but right now it's not obvious. The Democrats have. I heard Jake Aukloss just now on who's who. I admire and think is really great, but he was on way too early this morning talking about corruption. Another good Democratic message, but not a message around this, around this shutdown that necessarily has the kind of connection to it, the clarity and focus that you.

Joe Scarborough (9:36)

Might want from the Democratic Party firing people or mass firings help get essential services to the people. I mean, the math doesn't. I don't understand that.

Political Analyst (9:45)

It's a very good question, Mika. And frankly, to me, the one thing that I, you know, you were talking about this on the show yesterday, a fair amount. The Republicans were not in Washington yesterday to vote. Right. How is that not the central, one of the central messaging points of Democrats just to basically say, where are the Republicans? How can we be responsible for this government shutdown when there are no Republicans in town to vote on this question. I would have thought you would have heard that all day long yesterday. And I know it was pointed out by some Democrats here and there. But again, focus and clarity are key if you're going to win this battle.

Jonathan Lemire (10:17)

And there's also just the unity in the messaging. And the Republicans, you know, have hit on a few talking points and have stuck with them and have some of them have stayed out of town while Democrats. I was speaking to senior, two senior Democrats last night, you know, texting during the ballgame, who were sort of suggesting that they're real anxious about how long they can keep the party together. We've already seen three senators vote for the plan. They think there will be maybe in a few more days there might be a couple of more defections. And I think for some Democrats, the fight's enough, even just for a few days, showing they could take it to Trump. Ok, that's a marker they needed to hit. But others suggest that they're going to again, look rudderless at a moment where, you know, polls suggest that the president's almost as unpopular as they are. But Democrats are having, are struggling to take advantage.

Joe Scarborough (11:00)

Ok, so we're going to have much more on the messaging straight ahead with Rick Wilson. But. But now to this angle. The Trump administration is putting on hold billions of dollars of funding for infrastructure projects in New York City. In a social media post, White House Budget Director Russell Vogt wrote that he would be pausing 18 billion in funding for infrastructure projects to ensure that money was not flowing based on unconstitutional DEI principles. Principles, specifically the Hudson Tunnel project and the Second Avenue subway. A person familiar with the situation told NBC News that Transportation Department employees responsible for funding the project have been furloughed due to the shutdown. And the Trump administration, quote, has concerns that the contracts were awarded that were awarded were inconsistent with civil rights laws and the US Constitution because they were given based on racists dei, that person continued saying, quote, thus a review of contracts awarded under the Biden administration is required, adding that the review is also paused because of the Schumer shutdown. Aren't the Republicans in charge? I'm confused. Vote later posted that the Energy Department would cancel another 8 billion in funding related to projects in 16 states, all of which Kamala Harris carried in the 2024 election. Fourteen of those states have Democratic governors. Top Democrats in the region voiced their outrage at the moves. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said the Trump administration was using New Yorkers and New Jerseyans as pawns and called it disgusting. New York Governor Kathy Hochul accused Trump of being intent on using his recklessness, his reckless government shutdown to hurt the American people, adding it amounted to political payback and an attack on New York and its residents. The funding cuts also drew criticism from at least one Republican Congressman, Mike Lawler of New York, who said he strongly opposes these harmful cuts. And, Katty, these cuts look like tit for tat or something much bigger than that.

Katty Kay (13:27)

Yeah, I mean, I think the governor is right when she says that it looks like political payback. It is political payback. And when you see all the states that Russ Voort is saying that he's going to target for further spending cuts in infrastructure projects, they're all Democratic states. That should surprise nobody. The President and the team around him have made it very clear that they're going to use whatever power they have and whatever power they can get that has not previously been had by presidents in order to push the law as far as they can to enact retribution against Democrats they don't like and to attack Democrats on the political field. Democrats have got themselves into this position of this shutdown because they say, well, the White House is being lawless, so we now have to bend our sense of our norms as well. The question is, as Joe was asking Chuck Schumer yesterday, do they have a plan B? What is the Democrats ability to come back when they're being so hit so hard during this shut down? The person that knows that, of course, let's bring in MSNBC senior Capitol Hill correspondent Ali Vitale. She, of course, is the host of Way Too Early. Ali, you spend far too much time on the Hill for anybody's sanity, I think, right now. What is the plan B for Democrats? I mean, they. I assume Democratic leadership has gamed this out. They knew that this was gonna come. They knew that the White House had a whole lot of things it wanted to do to hit Democratic states, to hit Democrats. And they were gonna do them, and they were gonna use the government shutdown to do them, including la. So what's their plan B against that to counter that?

Commercial Narrator (14:55)

I don't know that I've heard it be called as a Plan B. But, I mean, they're definitely sticking to plan A in terms of talking about doing this strategy that they have on the shutdown because they feel the government has already caused so much harm and pain to Americans on healthcare, on other issues, that they're willing to allow for the fact that the administration is going to make it painful for them to continue to hold this line. That being said, I've been asking Democrats over the course of the last several days, what does success ultimately look like on this? And the fact that all of them are talking about notching a win on health care, whether it's and it's probably most likely this Affordable Care act, subsidies and some kind of a deal on that, that is really the only off ramp that they are allowing for. Separately, I will say that I've heard from some people that Lemire is hearing from the idea that they are concerned of how long Democrats can stay together because the pain is going to at some point be felt. I will say in talking to Congressman Auchincloss this morning, part of the reason that he was talking about corruption is because when we've seen the government take approaches that we never see from the agency side, things like posting on the Housing and Urban Development website that the shutdown is the fault of, and this is a direct quote, radical left Democrats, that is not how government agencies communicate. There are rules that govern that. And why Auchincloss was talking about corruption is because I have a scoop this morning from the House Oversight Committee that the ranking member, Robert Garcia, is trying to get the administration to enforce the Hatch act violation that many people believe has occurred. In the way that the government is communicating about this shutdown, it might seem quaint. I think we're so far past the point of citing the Hatch act violations. But at the same time, Mika, these rules are in place for a reason and corruption has long been a part of the Democratic message. I don't know that it helps them to diversify the message here, but at the same time they are trying to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Joe Scarborough (16:42)

So as we continue to cover this government shutdown which is in place right now, pretty grave moment. We're going to talk about the messaging after a break with Rick Wilson. We'll be right back with much more. Morning, Jo.

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Joe Scarborough (18:14)

President J.D. vance continued to peddle Republican claims that Democrats shut down the government in order to give undocumented immigrants free health care. Here is what he said in the briefing room yesterday. Again not telling the truth.

Jonathan Lemire (18:29)

What they have done instead is to.

Rick Wilson (18:30)

Shut down the government because we won't.

Jonathan Lemire (18:31)

Give billions of dollars to health care funding for illegal aliens. That is what has actually happened to the American people who are watching. The reason your government is shut down at this very minute is because despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Congressional Republicans and even a few moderate Democrats supported opening the government, the Chuck Schumer AOC wing of the Democratic Party shut down the government because they said to us, we will open the government, but only if you give billions of dollars of funding for health care for illegal aliens. That's a ridiculous proposition.

Joe Scarborough (19:03)

This is not true. This is not true. That is not true. The message has been echoed by the GOP lawmakers and the Trump administration in recent days, but is highly misleading as U.S. law prohibits unauthorized immigrants from gaining any federally subsidized health care coverage through Medicaid, the Affordable Care act, the Children's Health Insurance Program or otherwise. What he said is not true. The Democrats bill would not change the existing law. The changes sought by Democrats would only extend Medicaid coverage to immigrants whom the federal government has labeled as lawfully present but who have not been formally given legal status that is enforceable in court. Republicans Big Beautiful Bill act passed this summer significantly restricted non citizen eligibility for Medicaid coverage and according to an analysis of Congressional Budget Office data, roughly 1.4 million could lose health insurance coverage under the bill's provisions. The Democrats bill also seeks to extend subsidies that keep health insurance premiums low for people insured through the Affordable Care act, which are set to expire later this year. Undocumented immigrants are already barred from accessing that money and nothing in the Democrat bill changes that. So again, as the Vice President again saying things that are not true from the bully pulpit from the White House press briefing room, it is tough to counter this message when it then ripples through all of you know, different Congress, members of Congress, social media accounts and folks on the right. It's hard to push back against so many lies going in one direction. Let's bring in the co founder of the Lincoln Project, Rick Wilson. Rick, I've been sort of defensive of the Democrats because everyone's going, why aren't the Democrats doing more? Why can't the Democrats get us backbone? I believe the Republicans are in charge and we have lies trickling down from the top. It's really hard. You have any ideas?

Rick Wilson (21:26)

Look, I think what you saw yesterday with JD Vance was his sort of tryout for the 2028 Hunger Games, can I be as big a liar as Donald Trump? And he really was displaying that. That line was pumped out of a focus group by Tony Fabrizio and Trump's polling people because they recognize they're not trying to appeal to the middle of America or to the majority of America. They're trying to produce content for the FOX News conveyor belt. And so they're going to lie about these things. But I want to start out with a top line that we have just this morning out of the Washington post poll where 47% of the people say that the Republicans are responsible for the shutdown and 30 say the Democrats. And why is that? Because Donald Trump chose this shutdown. The Republican Party chose this shutdown. And the Democrats, I think, yes, they want a message on health care and policy. I get that. But they should be saying attributing the blame. Look at what the Republicans are doing. They're attributing blame to the Democrats that does not exist. Whereas the Democrats have the opportunity to point out to America once again. Donald Trump rules Washington with an iron fist. He controls the House, the Senate and the Supreme Court and the White House. He's the guy who chose this and he's the guy who's been engaged in economic damage to the country. This is one more thing. On top of the tariff taxes that he's caused, on top of the damage to our farmers, our manufacturers that he's caused. Now this his choice, his party, his shutdown.

Joe Scarborough (22:50)

Okay, that's great, John Hallman, I'll let you take a jab at this. But I'm curious in terms of what Rick said. I feel like what Rick said was just a way better version of what I said, which is the lies come from the top and then they're put on a TV news conveyor belt for millions of people to gobble up completely whole without any question to them. And how exactly do the Democrats message in a sea of voices that are all working together on putting those lies on a Huge conveyor belt.

Political Analyst (23:28)

Well, amica, you're putting your finger on a challenge that Democrats have and that they have in the context of the shutdown as much as they have kind of all the time. This is obviously a.

Joe Scarborough (23:38)

And I think, okay, we've identified the problem.

Political Analyst (23:40)

Well, yes, I mean, I can't give you a simple answer to that. It's a huge problem of our news media ecosystem that you're pointing to. But I think the specific thing here is, is that conveyor belt that you're talking about really does not is, as Rick pointed out a second ago, those are message, those are talking points that are primarily, they're not really reaching the voters who are going to determine the election in the midterms. They are primarily talking points on the conveyor belts that end in homes of people who already support Donald Trump. And so, Rick, I think the question is, you know, when you have a situation where Democrats have you said it's important for Democrats to message on the policy point, they've chosen health care because they think health care is an issue where they have some strength. It sounds to me like the argument you think they should be making with clarity is not necessarily focused on any one specific thing, but is focused more broadly on the corruption, the illegality, the abuse of power, the all, everything that is wrong with the Trump administration from the point of view of the, of the Democratic Party. Is that what you would advise if you, if you accept the notion that there has to be clarity and focus in order for Democrats to, quote, win the shutdown politically, what is the thing that you would have them say simply and repetitively over the coming days and weeks?

Rick Wilson (25:00)

This is crazy. And Donald Trump is hurting you. This is crazy. Donald Trump is hurting you. And Americans already ascribe chaos to Trump. They already ascribe, increasingly ascribe economic damage to Trump. His numbers on the economy, on inflation, on prices, on the tariffs are absolutely underwater by 10, 20, 30 points in some cases. And so playing into that damage, he's already cost himself by these terrible economic choices, including the big bad bill and everything else. I think that is an area where Democrats are able to insulate themselves from, from the Republican reflex action when the word healthcare is mentioned. And it also denatures this lie about illegal immigrants getting free healthcare. Again, that's a thing that was vomited out of a focus group by Tony Fabrizio. I get why they're using it. It's perfect red meat. But the idea that Trump is the chaos agent, that Trump is the cause of the harm farmers in America are getting screwed right now. Manufacturers, workers, construction workers, the harm is rippling out there. And I think as Democrats go through this shutdown fight, they've got to be out front and center saying, we're going to fix this. Not just this shutdown, we're going to fix the rest of this if you give us power in the fall of 26.

Jonathan Lemire (26:17)

And Rick, I think you're right, that a simple message the better. But I also think we should take a moment here just to dwell on returning to our story of a moment ago, the way that Russ Vode is punishing all blue states, that it's all states that voted for Kamala Harris, most of them have Democratic governors and in particular the president's former hometown of New York City. It's just so punitive. And I don't know that there are a lot of Americans. I mean, the Trump base might thrill to that. But I do think those Americans who maybe broke for Trump in 16, went to Biden in 20, came back to Trump in 2024. Is that sort of just cruelty, the punishment of political foes? Is that what they signed up for?

Rick Wilson (26:57)

You know, a lot of them in the Republican hardcore, the Republican base did sign up for that. But there's an odd coincidence here. You know, while Steve Bannon is no fan of mine, he made a point that I have to tell you, was pretty smart. He made a point about cutting health care benefits and Medicare and Medicaid benefits to red states. It's going to hurt Trump's voters. Cutting the ACA benefit is going to hurt Trump's voters. It is going to cause them a lot of pain. A lot of those people, about 60% of those people that are on the ACA are in red states. This is going to cause them pain. So the Democrats, yes. Pointing out the chaos, pointing out the insanity, pointing out that this is all Trump's choice. And I think one other thing that we need to think about why the Democrats are right to fight this fight right now is that Donald Trump will not keep a deal. He can say to them in the room, okay, vote to end the shutdown and we'll let you do the ACA subsidies. And then the next day said, nope, changed my mind. And who's gonna stop him? The Supreme Court? I don't think so.

Joe Scarborough (28:00)

I don't know, Rick. I think that this is crazy. Donald Trump is hurting you concept is really good. But I would take, I think some people are tuned out, like whatever he says, whatever. And I wonder if, you know, Democratic lawmakers and those who believe the truth about what is happening. They take it a step further and they push out on social media and push out on any platform. Go on Fox News. But this is crazy. Donald Trump is hurting you. This is crazy. This TV news host is lying to you. Show it. This is crazy. This congressman, your congressman is lying to you. Show it and keep it really focused. But I think it needs to go beyond Donald Trump and it needs to go to those who are holding up the lies.

Rick Wilson (28:47)

Mika. I think that is very on point. I think that exactly right. And Democrats have been hesitant to target Mike Johnson as hard as Donald Trump or target John Thune as hard as Donald Trump or target Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski and the rest of the softer Republicans in the Senate as hard as they go after Trump. Those people are now in political hot water once again carrying the burden for Trump and Democrats. They don't want to go on fox. They don't want to go in that ecosystem and punch them in the face, which they have to sometimes go in that ecosystem and say, hey, Sean, you're lying. Hey, you know, morning. Hey, whoever the morning people at Fox are, you're lying. You know, saying that occasionally ends up with those people just staring slackjaw at the camera because they're not accustomed in that hermetically sealed MAGA media bubble to being challenged ever.

Joe Scarborough (29:42)

Yeah.

Katty Kay (29:42)

And of course, it's already having some ripple effects, all of this on races that are going on at the moment. The government shutdown could impact some of the bellwether governors races. Here's what Republican winsome Earl Sears said earlier this week about former Congresswoman Abigail Spamberger as they both square off for the governor's seat in Virginia.

Joe Scarborough (30:02)

Yes. So actually, I'm hoping that my opponent, Abigail Spamberger, will tell her friends, Senators Kaine and Warner, who are from Virginia, not to shut down our government to give a continuing resolution that's clean. Vote for that, because you're going to put all of those federal workers out of a job. And my opponent has been speaking about that all summer long and she needs to come and tell them exactly that. Vote for a clean continuing resolution to.

Commercial Narrator (30:29)

Keep our federal workers in their jobs.

Katty Kay (30:32)

So, Ali, the polling in this race has suggested that a federal shutdown has not been that much of a factor with Virginia voters up until now. Right. So if federal workers are to get laid off, the assumption is that it would be. Do you see it impacting the governor's race?

Commercial Narrator (30:45)

I think it already has in theory. Right. Because we know that federal workers are a large percent of the population in Virginia that already after Doge and the efforts to basically rip out parts of the government root and stem. I went to town halls in Virginia in March, in April, and I heard from voters there who a started early echoing this idea of I just need Democrats to fight more, but also at the same time saying that there was a deep well of mistrust between them and the federal government, a federal government that again, had been their lifeline for their jobs for so many years. And so that's already an issue. And it's partly why I think Democrats are feeling good about the way that they've been running in Virginia. But things always tighten at the end. And I think this is why people are wondering, is this some kind of an October surprise in Virginia, in New Jersey, does the pulling out of these infrastructure projects ultimately roil anything? I do think though, on the messaging conversation that folks are having, if I think about the conversations I had throughout the entirety of the Trump term, inflection points where his support waned from MAGA voters, Republicans that I would speak to, they would say, it just seems so chaotic. And so I think that Rick is actually touching on something that has been a soft point for the Trump administration for as long as I and all of us have covered them, which is that the doing everything might appease some 30 some odd percent that's always supporting him in these polls, the base. But at the same time, the rest of the voters who come election day feel like they have to just make a choice and they end up choosing Trump. They are never comfortable with the chaos, the bombast, the exhaustion, the exhaustion. And I think that was the thing that I heard from Republicans who voted for Biden in 2020 when I was on the campaign trail then. And I wonder if that's not a message that does frankly encapsulate all the things that Democrats are concerned about right now. Because when they talk about the pain that the Trump administration has inflicted, as they see it, they are talking about everything from CDC guidelines, changes from Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Doge Elon Musk, efforts by the Trump, Trump administration on any number of things. That's why the message at times seems muddled. But the idea that they're focusing on health care is steeped in polling that they have seen. Though I do think that chaos message might be more all encapsulating based on what Rick is saying.

Joe Scarborough (32:54)

Okay, MSNB senior Capitol Hill correspondent Ali Vitale. Thank you, Rick Wilson. I'm distracted by a TV host doing a commercial for Winston Sears. That is just showing Alex. Rick Wilson, final thoughts on where the Democrats go from here, because this is, this is a fight for their lives.

Rick Wilson (33:18)

It is, I think they need to hold the line. The other number in that Washington Post poll that I think is really important is that independent voters, who tend to be the voters who are a little less engaged until the end, 15 to 22, blame the Republicans for this shutdown fight. I don't think like a dead fish, this doesn't smell better for Donald Trump a week or two weeks from now, and especially because Donald Trump will also lose focus and get distracted by some other shiny object and start talking about something else. And once he's not able to continually focus on this, the rest of it starts to fall apart for the Republican Party. I think the Democrats have to hold the line here.

Joe Scarborough (33:53)

Co founder of the Lincoln Project, Rick Wilson, thank you very much. And coming up on Morning Joe, we'll bring you the details of an alarming incident at LaGuardia Airport. We'll also have Joe's sit down with music legend Lionel Richie. That is all straight ahead on MORNING Joe.

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Commercial Narrator (36:13)

Eaton coming home.

Rick Wilson (36:14)

Here's the throw he signs.

Jonathan Lemire (36:18)

Must we do this? That single by Yankees catcher Austin Wells with a helpful hop off the wall gave the Yankees the lead with two outs in the bottom of the eighth inning last night. And it would be the deciding run in what was a must win game for the Bronx Bombers. New York reliever David Bednar came on the 9th and retired the Red Sox in order. Rafaela headed to the warning track that forces tonight's win or go home. Game three in the Bronx.

Joe Scarborough (36:43)

Oh, God.

Jonathan Lemire (36:44)

First pitch, 8:08 Eastern time.

Joe Scarborough (36:47)

Mike. I can't believe you're here. The two of you are terrible. You should not have gone to the game last night. You have to be focused and ready.

Political Analyst (36:54)

I thought you were going to say she.

Jonathan Lemire (36:55)

That's what you talking about?

Mike (36:56)

Did you go, hey, Mom, I went to the game?

Jonathan Lemire (36:59)

No, because this is. This is the way we had to go.

Joe Scarborough (37:02)

Look what happened. Hold on. You guys are bad luck. Just saying.

Jonathan Lemire (37:06)

We've seen some wins too. We've seen some wins too. Hold on.

Joe Scarborough (37:11)

Stop.

Jonathan Lemire (37:11)

Mike and I have to talk about the Red Sox. Okay, Mike. This was excruciating. This was a game where the Red Sox, you know, they stole game one and what was a white knuckle thriller last night, Another classic. The Sox had their chances and it's a couple of small plays that didn't go our way. You? Jared Duran dropping a ball in left field, scored a hit, but that was a drop. Rafaela not getting a bunt down, E not scoring. That's tough play, but it's a ball. Kicks away, he doesn't score. Trevor Story hitting it to the wall with the base loaded, etc. Etc. Etc. This is a game where the small plays. Alex Cora went for it on a day our starter didn't have it. We came up just short.

Mike (37:50)

Jonathan, I'm a little older than you, so I wouldn't describe last night's loss as excruciating.

Jonathan Lemire (37:55)

There have been worse.

Mike (37:56)

There have been many, many worse along the way. Here's the way it's going to work. And you know this just as well as I know it. They're going to play again tonight at 8 o'.

Jonathan Lemire (38:04)

Clock.

Mike (38:05)

Unfortunately, rather than 6 o'.

Joe Scarborough (38:06)

Clock.

Mike (38:07)

I'll be there again tonight. You'll be there again tonight.

Joe Scarborough (38:10)

Oh my God.

Mike (38:11)

Just the way it is. It's baseball. They play it every day. You win some, you lose some, but you got to dress for all of them and they'll dress, they'll show up, and the Red Sox will win tonight and we'll go to Toronto this weekend.

Political Analyst (38:24)

It's like the Dow of bar philosophical, you know?

Mike (38:31)

Well, you can't, you can't be that way. It's every day.

Jonathan Lemire (38:35)

You play it every day. They do.

Mike (38:36)

It's like we do this every day.

Joe Scarborough (38:38)

Same with our job.

Jonathan Lemire (38:39)

For sure. We do it every baseball, every day. But this is October. It's a little different now. And I guess my, my point would be this. It does feel like this is an over. You and I, we like this Red Sox team a lot this year. They're. But they've, they've overachieved and there is this. I feel like there's a chance, like last night was their shot. I felt like Cora thought so, too. No doubt, no doubt, no doubt.

Mike (38:57)

I mean, the, the at bat right there, the Wells at bat, that was a nade or a nine pitch at bat by Garrett Woodcock, maybe the best late reliever in the game today. All right. He was in the second inning of throwing this one inning. There's an eight or a nine pitch at bat. And that was a pretty good. I thought it was going to go foul. It didn't go foul. And that happened. But there's nothing to be ashamed of, nothing to be embarrassed about. Tough loss. But again, I get back to the fact we play every day. We'll play today.

Political Analyst (39:26)

That era. That era. Left field, though, sort of.

Mike (39:29)

Oh, don't get me going on that one. That's excruciating.

Political Analyst (39:32)

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You can't miss that ball in October.

Mike (39:35)

Well, you can misjudge it, you can misplay it.

Jonathan Lemire (39:37)

And here's the ball left.

Political Analyst (39:39)

I mean, you gotta be able to make that play if you're.

Mike (39:41)

Well, that play is not a dive for the ball play.

Political Analyst (39:44)

Right.

Mike (39:44)

That play is you run and you catch the ball.

Political Analyst (39:48)

Yes. Why is he on his knees?

Jonathan Lemire (39:49)

Yeah. This is Jared Duran, who says shaking the year in left field, dropping that and that. Yankees got the lead. Sox did tie it. Yankees got that game winner in the eighth. And interestingly, tonight, game three, both teams pitching rookies, which we've never seen before in an elimination game, get up there.

Rick Wilson (40:05)

Early, you might not.

Jonathan Lemire (40:07)

It will be a late night and be very happy. We're very sad.

Political Analyst (40:12)

Do you use Lemire in the middle innings or you bring him as a closer if you need to?

Jonathan Lemire (40:16)

Oh, I throw guest.

Mike (40:17)

I, I would use Jonathan as a multiple innings reliever.

Political Analyst (40:21)

Yeah, fifth through the seventh kind of thing. Try to get three things out of fifth too early. I'd bring him.

Mike (40:27)

I'd certainly bring him in in the six. Six, let him go through eight.

Joe Scarborough (40:30)

Give you.

Mike (40:31)

He'd give you a couple of good strong innings.

Jonathan Lemire (40:33)

I pitch inside too. My plate. All right. Sox. Yanks just one of three elimination games today. In the wild card got two other good ones. The Cleveland Guardians will host division rival Detroit for a decade. Decisive game three. After a dramatic win yesterday afternoon, Cleveland's usually inept offense exploded in the bottom of the eighth, putting up five runs. The Guardians, who of course once trailed Detroit by 15 and a half games during the regular season before then capturing the division title, which means this game is being played in Cleveland, can end the Tigers season with a win this afternoon. That's at 3 o' clock in Chicago. There will also be a winner. Winner take all. Game 3. After the Cubs lost yesterday, Manny Machado with a shot right there, two and homer in the fifth broke the game open giving the San Diego Padres a three run lead. Four San Diego pitchers combined to shut out Chicago, one of the top scoring teams in baseball.

Political Analyst (41:25)

Now we finally get to the real.

Jonathan Lemire (41:26)

Story of and here's John Holman's Dodgers out west. The defending champs. Well, they're the one team that's already moving on to the next round LA sweeping the Cincinnati Reds scoring 18 runs combined in their two wins. The Dodgers put this one away in the bottom of the sixth scoring four. LA was led by American hero Mookie Betts who had four hits and three rbi. The Dodgers will now face the Philadelphia Phillies in the NLDS game one Saturday. Phillies Dodgers Feels like that's such a heavyweight matchup John. This one coming a little early in the playoffs this year. But the Dodgers look, but there's still questions, there's still questions about their pitch pitching. Boy, they can hit.

Political Analyst (42:03)

And I will say, and I think Mike, you probably agree with this, they had an up and down season this year. You know, as the defending champions. They did not have the kind of season this year they had last season. But they right now, the last two, those two games against the Reds, they look like the world champion Dodgers again and driven mostly by their offense. But the pitching was strong in both those games and they've got Ohtani opening the division series and doing after putting on a show offensively in these two games against Cincinnati, he's going to start that first game again against Philadelphia. That'd be extraordinary thing to see.

Mike (42:30)

They have finally looked like the Dodgers that we thought were going to be the Dodgers. Earlier in the spring. They now look like that team.

Jonathan Lemire (42:37)

Yep.

Mike (42:38)

Moment for a hat tip to Tito Francona, manager of the Cincinnati Reds for getting that club into play.

Political Analyst (42:43)

Yes, for sure.

Jonathan Lemire (42:44)

They were just overmatched, that Reds team, the accomplishment, just making the playoffs. That's great.

Joe Scarborough (42:48)

Are the Red Sox going to make it?

Jonathan Lemire (42:50)

Oh, I'm not going to make a prediction. Mike's in.

Joe Scarborough (42:54)

I got two rescue kittens on this. If they win, I'll take them to the park tonight.

Jonathan Lemire (43:00)

The stakes are hot.

Joe Scarborough (43:00)

My point is if they make it to the World Series.

Jonathan Lemire (43:03)

No, this is just the first round. But beating the Yankees almost feels like winning the World Series, Mika.

Joe Scarborough (43:07)

But if they make it all the way. Yeah, I get two rescue kittens, one named Masa and the other named Crochet.

Jonathan Lemire (43:15)

There we go. That will be part of Alex Kors pregame pep talk today, I think tell the boys.

Mike (43:20)

How about I'll take one.

Political Analyst (43:21)

Who do you get? Who do you get these cats from?

Joe Scarborough (43:23)

Meatball Beth Stern. Yeah, Meatball is my like major rescue cat.

Political Analyst (43:28)

But only if the Red Sox win.

Joe Scarborough (43:30)

Right. So I really need that. Okay.

Mike (43:33)

Okay.

Joe Scarborough (43:34)

There we go.

Jonathan Lemire (43:34)

Eight o' clock tonight. A lot on the line.

Joe Scarborough (43:38)

Maza and Crochet.

Jonathan Lemire (43:39)

A lot on the line.

Joe Scarborough (43:40)

Still ahead on Morning Joe, there's more concerning news on the state of the job market. Huh? Well, go through that new report next. Plus, we'll look back at the remarkable life and legacy of conservationist Jane Goodall. MORNING Joe is back in a moment. It's 10 minutes before the top of the hour. Renowned conservationist and primatology expert Dr. Jane Goodall has died at the age of 91. She became a household name after her groundbreaking research on chimpanzees in Tanzania inspired global environmental advocacy. NBC News chief environmental affairs correspondent Anne Thompson takes a look back on her life and legacy.

Commercial Narrator (44:29)

Only death could silence Jane Goodall and.

Joe Scarborough (44:32)

Her passionate defense of the environment.

Jane Goodall (44:34)

We've got a window of time to start healing some of this harm we've done to the environment.

Joe Scarborough (44:39)

At 91, passing away from natural causes.

Commercial Narrator (44:42)

While on a speaking tour in California after a lifetime of advocacy, starting with.

Joe Scarborough (44:47)

Her beloved chimpanzee in 1960, with little.

Commercial Narrator (44:51)

Scientific training, she went to Tanzania and changed the way we look at these.

Joe Scarborough (44:56)

Great apes by doing everything the scientific.

Commercial Narrator (44:59)

Community then thought was wrong.

Jane Goodall (45:01)

They were totally horrified. I'd named the chimps. Instead of numbering them, I talked about them having personalities. I talked about them having minds and being able to have rational thoughts and emotions. Happiness, sadness, fear. And all of these things were supposed to be attributes only of humans.

Joe Scarborough (45:19)

Immersing herself in the jungle, she discovered.

Commercial Narrator (45:22)

The chimps could make tools, ate meat.

Joe Scarborough (45:25)

And fought wars, captivating the world.

Jane Goodall (45:28)

I got on a geographic cover and then there were all these people saying, well, she's only successful because she's got nice legs. My attitude was, well, if that's what gets me to get money to study the chimps, which is my passion. Thank you, Legs.

Commercial Narrator (45:44)

A prolific author, she spoke for the creatures she understood.

Jane Goodall (45:54)

That's Good morning and chimpanzee Goodall married.

Joe Scarborough (45:57)

Twice and had one son. But her lasting legacy is the relationship.

Commercial Narrator (46:02)

Forged in the wild.

Jane Goodall (46:03)

I want to be remembered for having helped people to understand the true nature of animals, that they do matter as individuals, that they do have a part to play in the scheme. And they're not just objects, they're beings and they're, you know, part of it.

Joe Scarborough (46:21)

Teaching us about chimpanzees and ourselves. And she did. NBC's Ann Thompson with that report. In November of 2023, our Huma Abedin interviewed Dr. Goodall for know youw Value, during which she reflected on what she wanted to leave behind.

Jane Goodall (46:41)

What I hope for is to live long enough to spread my message far enough around the world because it's, you know, if we don't have hope, then we tend to fall into apathy and if we fall into apathy, we tend to do nothing. And without hope. You're not going to roll up your sleeves and get out there and do something to change the world because we are living in very dark times. It's politically, socially, and then as we're talking today, environmentally. But somehow we've got to get our young people, give them enough hope that they can carry on and believe in a better future.

Joe Scarborough (47:23)

What is your advice to those who don't feel like their voices are being heard or just. Or who just maybe feel overwhelmed by all the challenges? What do you say to them?

Jonathan Lemire (47:32)

Them?

Jane Goodall (47:33)

Okay, you can't save the world. No individual can. But what are you passionate about? Maybe it's the plastic that's killing wildlife, especially in the ocean. Maybe you want to plant trees so that you can withdraw more CO2 from the atmosphere. Whatever it is, go to your local community, get some people with you and take action. And then you realize that other people like you who are also taking these small steps, put those together and that leads to big change. So I hope that that is part of the legacy I leave behind.

Joe Scarborough (48:08)

That's the inspiration we need. You can watch the entire interview@knowyourvalue.com and Katty K. Just your thoughts? I mean, she was trying to spread the message even till the day she died, on a speaking tour right at.

Katty Kay (48:26)

The end of her life. I interviewed her a couple of years ago as well, and she was just like that, still passionate. You know, she. She lived what she preached just there. 23, she'd been a waitress. She had no scientific background, she was entirely self taught. And it was her determination to be able to work with animals that got her to go and study them in the way that she did. Finding these two groundbreaking things that they use tools, that they had personalities. At the time, people were almost dismissive of it. But of course, now she's shown us that that's not just chimpanzees, it's lots of other animal species as well. But I think it was that it was her commitment and the fact that she was undaunted. I mean, she was really a remarkable advocate for the natural world and for what we need to do about climate change even before that became a fashionable thing to talk about.

Joe Scarborough (49:11)

Thank you, Katty. And.

Jonathan Lemire (49:15)

In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guy, champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger.

Rick Wilson (49:27)

Extra strength Hadaday eye drops that work.

Jonathan Lemire (49:30)

All day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Pataday Hataday. Bring it on.