Deal or damage? Experts warn EU trade deal could weaken U.S. alliances

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Summary
Episode: Deal or damage? Experts warn EU trade deal could weaken U.S. alliances
Release Date: July 28, 2025

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1. Introduction and Overview

In this episode of Morning Joe, hosts Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, and Willie Geist delve into the complexities of the newly forged trade agreement between the United States and the European Union (EU). The discussion is enriched by insights from prominent guests, including Richard Haass, John Heilman, Ed Luce, Frank Foer, Lisa Rubin, and others. The episode also touches upon pressing international issues, such as the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the lingering controversies surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's network.

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**2. US-EU Trade Agreement: Details and Immediate Impact

Jonath Lemire kicks off the discussion by outlining President Trump's visit to Scotland, emphasizing the trade negotiations that culminated in the recent US-EU trade deal. Key elements of the agreement include:

• 15% Tariffs: Imposed on most European goods, including automobiles. This rate is a compromise between Trump's previously threatened 30% and the EU's desired 10%.

• Energy and Investment Commitments: The EU has pledged to purchase $750 billion worth of American energy and invest $600 billion in the United States.

• Exemptions: Certain products like aircraft, specific chemicals, and pharmaceuticals remain tariff-free. However, the 50% tariff on steel remains unchanged.

Frank Foer comments at [04:30] on the negotiation challenges, stating:

"It was very difficult because we started far apart from each other... till the very end, as always in negotiations, you don't know whether you'll find the landing point... but in the end, as we were successful, it's good and it's satisfactory."

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**3. Expert Analysis: Short-Term Relief vs. Long-Term Consequences

Richard Haass initiates the deeper analysis by questioning the sustainability and future implications of the trade deal:

"Even if a crisis was avoided right now, whether this sets in motion trends or pressures that essentially move the Europeans away from the United States because it sends signals that we're prepared to see this relationship deteriorate unless we get our way on tariffs and trade." ([05:58])

Ed Luce adds:

"This is a deal... it's less for what it accomplished... The Europeans did not want to have an escalating tariff war. People wanted predictability." ([07:06])

Lisa Rubin further explores the long-term ramifications:

"Europe is reaching out to other regions like the Indo-Pacific Trade Area, Latin America, Southeast Asia, and Africa. This will increase trade between them and reduce trade with the United States." ([08:38])

John Hamon raises concerns about consumer impact:

"Analysts do say [the tariffs] are coming. In a deal like the EU one, it's not enough to completely disrupt global trade, but it is enough to pass on higher prices to consumers." ([10:41])

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**4. Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza: Israel’s Military Pause and International Response

Transitioning to the Middle East, the podcast addresses Israel's announcement of a daily 10-hour pause in military operations in Gaza to facilitate aid delivery amidst international scrutiny.

Richard Haass provides context:

"October 7th, Israel was the victim of horrific terrorist attacks... Now, 21 months or more into this conflict, the end is still not in sight. These talks have been suspended between Israel and Hamas... there are zero winners." ([15:25])

Ed Luce emphasizes the deteriorating international sympathy for Israel:

"Israel is increasingly isolating itself. There was a realization that President Trump gave $60 million for food to Gaza, but nobody acknowledged it amidst the starvation crisis." ([18:03])

Lisa Rubin highlights global political shifts:

"France, Spain, Ireland, and Norway are moving towards recognizing a Palestinian state, putting additional pressure on international relations." ([16:13])

Jonath Lemire underscores the moral implications:

"Using starvation as a method of warfare is a war crime... it's hard to see it any other way." ([18:03])

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**5. Jeffrey Epstein Controversies: Political Fallout and Transparency Issues

The discussion shifts to the ongoing Jeffrey Epstein scandal, focusing on President Trump's recent statements and the Justice Department's secretive meetings with Ghislaine Maxwell.

Ali Vitale introduces the topic by detailing Trump's comments about a potential pardon for Maxwell:

"If you're asking my opinion, I think 20 years was a pittance... She should have a life sentence at least." ([01:00])

John Heilman probes the unusual meeting between Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche and Maxwell:

"There's no transparency about what was discussed or the next steps in the DOJ's investigation." ([36:46])

Frank Foer analyzes the DOJ's stance:

"The DOJ didn't uncover evidence to prosecute uncharged third parties, pushing focus onto Maxwell as a potential key figure." ([37:50])

Reverend Al Sharpton addresses Trump's false claims about endorsements:

"I did not endorse Kamala Harris. National Action Network supported her campaign through legitimate means, not direct payments for endorsements." ([25:23])

John Hamon reflects on the political ramifications:

"Trump's attempts to distract with accusations against public figures are failing, especially as the Epstein matter continues to dominate discussions." ([28:05])

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**6. Internal GOP Dynamics: Speaker Mike Johnson’s Break with Trump

Mike Johnson, traditionally aligned with Trump, expresses reservations about pardoning Maxwell, highlighting a significant rift within the GOP.

John Hamon explains:

"Johnson is trying to balance legislative wins with the expectations of his constituents, leading to delicate maneuvering within the party." ([44:05])

Frank Foer critiques the legal feasibility:

"Calling for a special counsel investigation into former President Obama is almost laughable due to presidential immunity protections." ([50:51])

Frank Foer also discusses the potential political backlash:

"If Maxwell is pardoned, it could alienate Trump's base, making him appear even guiltier in the eyes of his supporters." ([43:38])

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**7. Concluding Remarks and Future Outlook

As the episode wraps up, Jonath Lemire summarizes the multifaceted issues:

• Trade Deal: Immediate avoidance of a trade war, but potential long-term weakening of US-EU alliances.

• Gaza Crisis: Ongoing humanitarian disaster with limited international solutions.

• Epstein Scandal: Persistent political turmoil with no clear resolution, further complicating Trump's political standing.

The hosts emphasize the interconnectedness of these global and domestic issues, urging listeners to stay informed as these narratives continue to evolve.

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Notable Quotes

• Richard Haass ([05:58]):

  "Even if a crisis was avoided right now, whether this sets in motion trends or pressures that essentially move the Europeans away from the United States..."

• John Hamon ([10:41]):

  "Analysts do say [the tariffs] are coming... this does undercut the fundamental promise of the Trump administration."

• Frank Foer ([16:13]):

  "The international reaction is building... President Trump called Beyoncé, Oprah, and Al Sharpton for unacknowledged aid, which is 'borderline obscene.'"

• Reverend Al Sharpton ([25:23]):

  "Donald Trump is in very serious problems around this whole question of Epstein... We don't endorse her."

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Key Takeaways

• The US-EU trade deal serves as a temporary solution preventing a trade war but may sow seeds for future discord and decreased economic alignment.

• The humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues to escalate, with Israel facing growing international condemnation and internal strategic dilemmas.

• The Jeffrey Epstein scandal remains a persistent thorn in President Trump's administration, highlighting issues of transparency and political strategy within the GOP.

• GOP leadership, particularly Speaker Mike Johnson, exhibits cracks in unwavering support for Trump, signaling potential shifts in party dynamics.

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This comprehensive overview encapsulates the critical discussions and expert insights from the Morning Joe episode, providing listeners with a thorough understanding of the intricate geopolitical and domestic issues shaping today's political landscape.

Transcript

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[John Heilman]

Would you consider a pardon or a.

[Richard Haass]

Commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell?

[Ali Vitale]

If it's something I haven't thought about, it's really something. I recommended it.

[Richard Haass]

I'm allowed to do it.

[Ali Vitale]

But it's something I have not thought about. If you're asking my opinion, I think 20 years was a pittance. I think she should have a life sentence at least. I mean, think of all these unspeakable crimes and as you noted earlier, probably a thousand victims. I mean, you know, this isit's hard to put into words how evil this was and that she orchestrated it and was a big part of it, at least under the criminal sanction, I think is an unforgivable thing. So again, not my decision, but I have great pause about that as as any reasonable person would. And that's another example of some daylight between President Trump and Speaker Mike Johnson, as the president did not completely rule out a pardon for Ghislaine Maxwell, who was, of course, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime associate. Meanwhile, the president in Scotland today touting a new trade deal with the European Union. We're going to break down the details of that agreement. Plus we'll bring you the latest from the Middle east as Israel says it will pause fighting in Gaza amid pressure to allow more aid into the territory. Also ahead this morning, the CIA director teased the release of files on Hillary Clinton and Russia's efforts to influence the 2016 presidential election. We'll play for you his comments. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, July 28th. I'm Jonath Lemire in for Joe, Mika and Willie, thank you so much for Starting off your week with us, and alongside we have NBC News national affairs analyst and partner at chief political columnist at Puck, John Hamon, as well as the host of Way Too Early. You just saw her. Ali Vitale. Great group to start us off and let's dive right in. President Trump is still in Scotland as part of a five day visit there. The president was greeted by crowds of protesters as he kicked off his weekend of golf and some trade talk, with scores of people gathering in cities across Scotland carrying signs with slogans like Resist and no Trump. More protests are planned for later today. Trump was spotted playing golf at his Turnberry course on both Saturday and Sunday morning before meeting yesterday with the president of the European Commission and then a short time later announcing a trade agreement with the eu. Later this morning, Trump is expected to sit down with British Prime Minister Keir Starmer to talk trade as well as the deepening hunger crisis in Gaza. The president will then travel across Scotland to cut the ribbon on his new golf course there over in Aberdeen. And so that trade agreement reached between the US and the European Union stays off a potential trade war between the two allies, at least for now. The deal sets a 15% tariff on most European goods, including cars. The EU has also agreed to purchase $750 billion worth of American energy and invest $600 billion into the United States. Now, some products will not be subject to tariffs, including aircrafts and their components, certain chemicals and some pharmaceuticals. President Trump says the 50% tariff on steel will remain unchanged. Now, this 15% tariff is lower than the 30% rate Trump had previously threatened, but higher than the 10% that the EU had been hoping for. European Commissioner President Ursula von der Leyen spoke to reporters yesterday about the deal and the negotiations with President Trump.

[Frank Foer]

It was very difficult because we started far apart from each other. It was tough, fair, but it was tough and therefore rightly so. You saw the tension at the beginning. So we had to work hard to come to a common position. And till the very end, as always in negotiations, you don't know whether you'll find the landing point, the landing zone at the very end, or whether it crashes. So it was tough, but in the end, as we were successful, it's good and it's satisfactory.

[Ali Vitale]

Let's bring in now President Emerus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on Substack. Also joining us, U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce and staff writer for the Atlantic, Frank Foer. Thank you all for Being with us this morning. Richard Haass, let's start with you. Much has been made about how President Trump has put a strain on traditional alliances, the EU chief among them. He has used some really vitriolic rhetoric to describe them over the months. But now a deal is struck, maybe not perfect, but done and puts, at least for the time being, fears of a trade war to the side. What do you make of what you heard from the EU commissioner and the president states?

[Ed Luce]

Well, I think this is a deal. It's less for what it accomplished, Jonathan, than what it avoided. The Europeans did not want to have an escalating tariff war. People wanted predictability. But also for the Europeans, as important as the trade dimension is of the relationship, there's other dimensions, beginning with the security, security and obviously with the war against Russia in Ukraine. So it was very much in the European interest to somehow some way find a way to resolve the trade frictions. I expect there'll be some in Europe who say perhaps they ought to have pushed back harder, they gave up too much. But I think this was something of a bargain or a decision from their point of view to reflect their greater priorities. I think one of the only other question I'd be interested with Ed has to say about this is the long term consequences consequences of this that even if a crisis was avoided right now, whether this sets in motion trends or pressures that essentially move the Europeans away from the United States because it sends signals that we're prepared to see this relationship deteriorate unless we get our way on tariffs and trade.

[Ali Vitale]

Well, at least let's do exactly that. What do you make of Richard's question there about the short and long term trends out of this deal?

[Lisa Rubin]

Is exactly the right question from Richard. I mean, look, this is better than it could have been. There was a 30% tariff threatened on August 1st if a deal wasn't reached. But it is worse than what Britain achieved, which was a 10%, not a 15% tariff. So the European disaffection with this, whilst many share the relief that Ursula von der Leyen you showed expression expressing there, they also from France and Germany in particular expressed real frustration that there's going to be quite a big hit here to European gdp. And we've got Europe already in the last six months negotiating to have a partnership agreement with the Indo Pacific Trade Area, the CPTPP as it's called. They're reaching out to other, to Latin America. They're looking at Southeast Asia, they're looking at Africa. They're looking to do real deals, real Trade reduction, barrier reduction deals all over the world, which will increase trade between them and reduce trade with the United States. So I think the long term effect that Richard was implying is there's going to be more free trade everywhere but with the United States and that's, that's going to divert growth from the US Ultimately.

[Ali Vitale]

So, John Hamon, we know there are few ideological constants when it comes to Donald Trump, but one of them is his belief in tariffs. And he is imposing some here, but strikes a deal that avoids, at least for now, a larger trade war. But the other one is still, you know, there was a handful of friendly words we heard from him over the weekend, but still largely some sort of distrust and even at times distasteful for Europe.

[Jonath Lemire]

Yeah, that's right, Jonathan. I think there are a couple of larger questions. One of the two that Ed and Richard talked about, one of which is as you get a rebalancing of global trade and the alliances that kind of flow out of the economic arrangements between these, not just these countries, but these trade blocs. The other question is what happens to prices? I mean, we have heard for a long time that what will happen if we impose tariffs that are higher than existing levels, that we're going to start to see prices rise on the products. So from the stand, from the narrow domestic political context for American consumers, are all of these products that we paid lower prices for in the past, are we going to be paying higher prices for them now? And do American consumers notice? Trump loves, not only loves the art of the deal, but he loves to be able to declare victory. I made a deal. What does the deal accomplish? What does the deal do for us? Does it actually accomplish anything that's good for American consumers? Does it? What are the long term implications for the alliances and global trade? Those questions are down the road. Donald Trump wants to take the short term win in this case for him, averting catastrophe. But being able to announce a deal is kind of enough.

[John Hamon]

Those questions might be down the road, Frank, but the road is getting shorter. We've yet to see the true tangible impact of tariffs in some of these economic reports that we look at, but analysts do say it's coming. And what they see in a deal like the EU one, for example, is that it's not enough to completely disrupt global trade, but it is enough to pass on higher prices to consumers. That was a central political issue for Trump in 2024. And this is a guy who loves to say promises made, promises kept on this. It doesn't necessarily sound like he's going.

[Frank Foer]

To be able to.

[John Hamon]

Right?

[Richard Haass]

Right. Well, for now, companies have swallowed so much of the cost they haven't passed them on fully to consumers. But every law of business and economics suggests that over the long run, that's not something that they'll be able to sustain. So there is going to be a point at which prices are going to start to tick upwards. We don't know exactly the magnitude of that, of course, but this does undercut the fundamental promise of the Trump administration and he's going to, he's going to get slammed with that eventually.

[Ali Vitale]

So staying overseas, let's turn to the Middle east now, where Israel says it is imposing a daily 10 hour pause on military activity in parts of Gaza to allow for greater aid delivery into the enclave. It comes amid growing scrutiny and some real international anger over Israel's actions there. The IDF announced yesterday that over 120 aid trucks were collected and distributed, with another 180 trucks set to enter the enclave. In a social media post on Saturday, Israel's Foreign Ministry denied that Palestinians are being starved and accused Hamas of spreading propaganda using manipulated images. The United nations, meanwhile, says that nearly one in three Gazans haven't eaten in days. World Health Organization data shows that 63 malnutrition related deaths in July alone, nearly half of them children. Israel blames the UN for failing to distribute aid while vowing to continue its fight against Hamas. Yesterday in Scotland, President Trump was asked if he believes Israel should be doing more to allow food into Gaza. Well, you know, we gave $60 million two weeks ago and nobody even acknowledged it for food. And it's terrible. You know, you really at least want to have somebody say thank you. No other country gave anything. We gave $60 million two weeks ago for food for Gaza and nobody acknowledged it. Nobody talks about it. And it makes you feel a little bad when you do that. We've heard that from President Trump before, demanding to be thanked for US Aid. Let's recall the Oval Office blow up with Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine earlier this year. But Richard Haas, let's focus here on what's happening in Gaza. It feels like this last week was something of a tipping point in terms of international outrage about the famine and starvation in Gaza. There was. The Associated Press had a story over the weekend about a five month old daughter who had died of starvation, dying, weighing less than when she was born a few months prior. Israel has said that some of these images are manipulated. There just seems no evidence of that. And instead we have real, real Anger here and pressure. Seems like Israel has relented at least a little. But there's a long way to go.

[Ed Luce]

You're right, Jonathan, let's take a step back. October 7th, Israel was the victim of horrific terrorist attacks. On October 8th, if you will, the world understood why Israel felt the necessity and the legitimacy of retaliating against Hamas. But we're now into what I would call October 9th. And what you have is Israel prosecuting a war where over 50,000 people have been killed, probably 75% of the people of Gaza have been forced into a quarter or less of its territory. You're having examples of malnutrition or worse. And Israel is increasingly losing as lost public sympathy around, around the world. It's increasingly isolating itself. And what I think you've seen over the last 24 hours is a reluctant, what admission? Concession by the Israelis, that of that. So they've allowed now some daily pauses in the military action, some new food quarters. But none of this changes the basics. We're 21 months or more now into this conflict and we still don't have a clear path for ending it. These talks have been suspended between Israel and Hamas, using Qatar and the United States as intermediaries. Israel still has not come forward with a day after strategy. Hamas still sees the hostages who are the great losers here, along with the Palestinian people. Hamas sees the hostages as their, their principal area of pressure on Israel. So again, 21 months later, the end is still not in sight. So this is a situation, quite honestly, for which there are zero winners.

[Ali Vitale]

Ed Luce, there's been a lot of really good reporting in recent weeks, including for the New York Times a couple of Sundays ago, about how the Israeli military, its generals, believe that all military objectives in Gaza were actually accomplished quite some time ago. Really questioning why Israel is still there outside of Prime Minister Netanyahu's wish to keep the conflict going so he can remain in power. And this is, it would seem to be the result. I mean, these images of children. And we should note that the Western media is really not allowed in Gaza. It's very few images have made it out, but there are horrific scenes of starvation, so many, so many churches. And to Richard's point, Israel has not just squandered international sympathy, but really has elicited the anger of so much of the world.

[Lisa Rubin]

Yes, I mean, and this was, as your question implies, foreseeable a long time ago. I don't think there's too many people around the world and in Israel, at least parts of Israel, who doubt that Netanyahu is trying to prolong his grip on the Israeli government because he doesn't want to face trial on the various corruption charges, some of which are now ongoing. But the international reaction is building. France. Last week, Emmanuel Macron, the French president, said France would recognize a Palestinian state this coming September at the United nations meetings in New York, which follows similar announcements, perhaps more predictably, by Spain, Ireland and Norway. Huge pressure on Keir Starmer's Labour government in Britain to do the same. There's Now, I believe, 200 members of parliament who've signed a petition to that effect. That's about a third of the number of MPs. So the longer this goes on, and it has gone on way too long, the greater that kind of gesture that we've seen from France and might be seeing in the coming weeks from Britain is going to be. And just to make one point about Trump saying the Gazans haven't thanked him for that $60 million in aid, there's malnutrition and starvation going on there. There are people who are going to collect food who are losing their lives. So there are stampedes, there's IDF shootings, there's, there's some confusion, but not that much confusion about what's going on here. The fact that President Trump thinks that there should be gratitude for this situation is, I'm sorry to say, it's borderline obscene.

[Jonath Lemire]

Yeah, I think beyond borderline. Ed and Frank Foer, I ask you, I mean, I'm probably the lowest rung on the totem pole here in terms of foreign policy expertise, but at least the way that I learned it back when I was a simple country lawyer, as Jess Scarborough would say, was that using starvation as a method of warfare is a war crime. And that seems kind of beyond dispute that that is one of the things that Israel is doing here. And when you hear people on the left who have been crying that this war is an exercise in genocide for a long time, and people have said, well, let's have a real argument here. Is it really, are they really perpetrating genocide? It seems that Israel is hand those who want to accuse it of genocide against the Palestinians in Gaza, they're handing them a very strong argument, because that is, again, when you start using starvation as a tool of warfare, it is not only a war crime, but it starts to give a strong, as I said, a strong argument to those who say this is a policy of genocide. And it's hard for me to see it some other way, even bending over backwards to try to give Israel the.

[Ali Vitale]

Benefit of the doubt.

[Richard Haass]

I mean, we should all be able to agree that feeding starving children is a moral imperative. The decision that the Israeli government took last March to assume control over food distribution in Gaza when there was no real plan for being able to effectively distribute aid has really been the catastrophe from which this has all unfolded. In Israel itself. There is this epistemic closure that Israel lives within this filter bubble where the images, the horror, the, the facts on the ground that there is starvation taking place, that there are these hard limits on the amount of food flowing in, haven't really penetrated that Israelis kind of price in all of these criticisms as part of global anti Semitism or they say that these institutions are all aligned against them. And I think one of the things that I find so troubling is how the Israeli public is so untroubled at this stage by these things that just tug at the heartstrings of everybody who opens a newspaper or logs on to social media. And what I also find a bit makes me despondent is that fixing this problem isn't, isn't that easy. Gaza is a failed state. Nobody has control over the strip. Governance doesn't exist. There are not just rampant hunger, there are gangs, there is Hamas. And so I think fixing this at this stage, it's gone on too long, but it's gone on too long for there to be necessarily easy solutions to just flooding the zone with food.

[Ali Vitale]

This seems to be the point of real global focus right now. The situation in Gaza. We, of course, will be covering it each and every day as well. President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, thank you for joining us this morning. Ed lucena, Financial Times thank you as well. Ed's new book, of course, titled the Life of America's Great Power Profit is available now. Still ahead here on MORNING Joe, President Trump is now suggesting that Kamala Harris paid celebrities to endorse her for president. We'll fact check that allegation with the Reverend Al Sharpton, who was named in the president's accusatory truth social post. Plus, we'll bring you the latest on the fallout from the Jeffrey Epstein case as President Trump expresses his frustration over the growing and continuing backlash. A lot to get to this morning. And a reminder that the Morning Joe podcast is available each and every weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching MORNING joe. We'll be right back.

[Frank Foer]

The bottom line is, even as the.

[John Hamon]

Trump administration tries to end abortion access funding and shut down health centers. Planned Parenthood continues its vital work without flinching.

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The assault on reproductive health is strategic and persistent.

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[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Defend MSNBC Films presents season two of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production hosted by John Leguizamo. On the next episode, John travels to Raleigh, North Carolina.

[Ali Vitale]

There's a lot to love about Raleigh.

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[Ali Vitale]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

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[Ali Vitale]

Donald Trump called for Vice President Kamala Harris to be prosecuted, falsely claiming yet again that Harris paid for endorsements from celebrities during her 2024 president campaign. In a rant posted on social media, Trump claimed that Beyonce received $11 million, that Oprah got $3 million, and that the Reverend Al Sharpton took home $600,000 to endorse the then vice president. Trump added that they broke the law. They should all be prosecuted. Trump made similar claims about the vice president earlier this year and late last year. The Harris campaign has consistently denied paying for endorsements, and federal election records show that the Harris campaign did pay Beyonce's production company $165,000 in reimbursements, which is common with large event productions. Oprah has said she was not paid to appear alongside Harris at a live streamed event in Michigan back in September 2024. Records show production fees of roughly a million dollars were covered by the campaign, while Sharpton's National Action Network was paid $500,000 for get out the vote initiatives last year. A spokesperson for the Harris campaign explained to Deadline that it was required by campaign finance laws to cover costs associating withholding such events. Joining us now, the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, the Reverend Al Sharpton. REV. Good to see you. We have a couple questions for you on this but let's just start most simply with the accusation that President Trump has leveled at you. Were you paid for an endorsement?

[David Rhode]

Well, absolutely not. And as the FEC filings say, they helped the campaign, gave funds for get out the vote campaigns for National Action Network, of which I'm a part of, and other civil rights groups, some which got more than National Action Network did. National Action Network, nor I even endorsed her. What is interesting about this, though, is that the fact that this is the, as you accurately reported, second or third time lawyers for National Action Network was looking at can we sue him for defamation? Because he had knowledge this time that there was no endorsement and that I.

[Jonath Lemire]

Didn'T get any money.

[David Rhode]

This went to the nonprofit that I'm connected to. But let's look at the larger picture here. Donald Trump is in very serious problems around this whole question of Epstein. So last week he was trying to flood the zone to take any pressure off of him and try to put his MAGA base back together again. The fact is he started by saying he's going to fire the Fed chief. That didn't work. Then he went on to something about tariffs. That didn't work. Then he decided to do what he started his political career on, start race baiting, which was he started with birtherism, that Obama wasn't born here. Then he went and released the files now last week of Martin Luther King Jr. Some of which are very questionable, and the family was opposed to him doing it. That didn't work. The next day he goes after Barack Obama saying he ought to be prosecuted. That didn't work. Then he tries something else. Then over the weekend, Kamala Harris, Oprah Winfrey, Beyonce, Al Sharpton, the race card, the threat here is race. And that's what he's trying to do. They're swapping money. They're doing things like Obama was holding back with Russia. It's all about trying to get past Epstein. We have shown in National Action Network and other groups what we did and didn't do in the campaign. Even when I spoke at the convention, I said we don't endorse candidates. We have come with our fouls. Release the Epstein files. Mr. Trump, do what we did or be quiet.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, you're certainly right. The four names in that post, the vice president, Oprah, Beyonce, yourself, very clear what they have in common. John Hyman, let's bring you in on this, too. Just this idea. This seems to be, to Rev's point, Trump playing the greatest hits, falling back on some of his lesser impulses, perhaps playing with Birtherism and the like, but also just shows still this frantic nature of trying to throw things against the wall to distract from an Epstein story, that's simply not going away. Right.

[Jonath Lemire]

It's the last part of that that matters, Jonathan, I think, which is, I understand why they're frantic because he's thrown a lot of stuff against the wall and none of it has done what it normally has done for him, which is to move people along, get people distracted. And usually the people who are very most easily distracted are those in his base. He's been able to count on that. You think about the range now of what the distractions have been. You've got on one hand, all due respect to Rev, but it's like on one hand you're like, hey, those guys, Kamala Harris, who I beat, right, who's no longer a political threat to me whatsoever, who I beat in the election, fair and square, paid endorsers, who cares? On the other end of the scale, Barack Obama has committed treason and should, according to the law, if you're guilty of treason, should be put to death. No one cares about that either because it's kind of self evident that all these things are what we've just said. They're all distractions. And the one persistent reality is that the Jeffrey Epstein thing is not going away. Because for the first time, Donald Trump is faced with a thing, a controversy, where he is at odds with the people who have supported him, believed in him, trusted him the most, and they are all. They were looking at him going, wait a minute, you're full of crap. You're not making good on this promise. And we're starting to have some questions about it, and that's why it's not going away. I know you're gonna talk about prob. The Mike Johnson thing, but boy, 80% of the discussion over the weekend on broadcast and cable television was on Epstein, not any of the rest of these matters.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, and all his efforts to distract, including playing the race card, not working. We will have much more on the Epstein matter in our next block. But before then, Frank, you've got a new piece out for the Atlantic this morning titled NASA and the End of American Ambition. In it, you write, in part, this the story of Elon Musk can be told using the genre of fiction that he reveres most. In an act of hubris, NASA gave life to a creature called SpaceX, believing it could help achieve humanity's loftiest ambitions. But as in all great parables about technology, the creation eclipsed the creator. Frank, tell us more.

[Richard Haass]

So I wrote a parable about the United States because if we go back to the 1960s and we recall Apollo, what it was was the greatest demonstration project on behalf of the competence of the American state, that they achieved something that nobody thought was was possible on the timeline in which they achieved it. And it really did seem to symbolize something about this country. It gave us this tremendous advantage in the war for hearts and minds during the Cold War. And then we speed through that narrative and we come to this end point where this thing that we once did so well internally was something that we ended up outsourcing to Elon Musk. And it's not just capacity that we've outsourced to Elon Musk, it's vision that we've outsourced to Elon Musk. And I tell the story of how this came to be because it's not just simply that he emerged in the course of this election and aligned himself with Donald Trump, that there were decisions that we made over time across both parties that ended up dismantling this confidence that we had built up, shifting power to contractors, taking power away from the government. And the thing about our dependence on Musk is it's not just in the realm of transporting cargo and astronauts to the International Space Station that our military and our intelligence community have become incredibly dependent on Musk. And as well, that even as Musk and Trump are spatting, the government announced that Musk's company would be involved in the creation something called milnet, which is a new communications system that our intelligence services government are going to be completely dependent on. There's talk of building a new missile defense system for the United States called golden dome. And SpaceX will be essential to that. The government has gone back and they've looked at our contracts with Space X to see if it's possible to purge SpaceX in order to satisfy Donald Trump. And they've concluded that that's simply not possible, that we've reached this moment where we've gone from Apollo to this place where even if we wanted to escape our dependence on Elon Musk, it's not possible because he's developed something that is essential, that we failed in our ability to cultivate a robust market. And I think that that's a pretty terrifying state for us to be in.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, that important new piece out this morning for the Atlantic. Staff writer at the Atlantic, Frank Foer, thank you. As always. Story available to read online now. Coming up here on Morning Joe, as mentioned, we'll dive in to the Jeffrey Epstein matter. We'll dig into Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche's two day meeting with Epstein's convicted associate Ghislaine Maxwell, and the lack of transparency surrounding it. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

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[Ali Vitale]

Hi, I'm Jon Lovett, host of Love it or Leave It. Every week I'm joined live on stage.

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[Ed Luce]

This is part of the rush to.

[Ali Vitale]

Get this deal done to not Jeffrey Epstein story. Oh, you got to be kidding with that. No, had nothing to do with it. Only you would think that that had nothing to do with it. President Trump responded to that Epstein question yesterday amid discussing trade talks with the eu. That comes as Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanch wrapped up nine hours of meetings over two days on Friday with convicted Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell. But as NBC News reports, the meetings remain shrouded in secrecy, with Blanche making no public statements about what she said, nor did he give any details about the next steps in the DOJ's much criticized Epstein investigation. Now, just before leaving for Scotland on Friday, reporters asked President Trump if he was considering a pardon for Maxwell.

[John Heilman]

Would you consider a pardon or a.

[Richard Haass]

Commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell?

[Ali Vitale]

It's something I haven't thought about it. It's something I'm allowed to do it, but is something I have not thought about. If you're asking my opinion, I think 20 years was a pittance. I think she should have a life sentence at least. I mean, think of all these unspeakable crimes and as you noted earlier, probably a thousand victims. I mean, you know, this is it's hard to put into words how evil this was and that she orchestrated it and was a big part of it, at least under the criminal sanction, I think is an unforgiving so again, not my decision, but I have great pause about that, as any reasonable person would. So that was again, Speaker Johnson on Meet the Press yesterday, really breaking with President Trump on the Epstein Maxwell matter. We'll turn back to the politics of the moment in a second. But joining us first, NBC News senior executive editor for national security David Rhode and MSNBC legal correspondent and former litigator Lisa Rubin. Thanks, guys, for both being here. David, I'll start with you. Just talk to us a little bit more just how unusual the Blanch meeting was with Maxwell and the concerns about the lack of transparency. We've heard nothing about it since it concluded.

[John Heilman]

So we reported on this over the weekend. Several of my colleagues and a senior Justice Department official said he had a former official said he'd never heard or never seen anything like this, where the number two official in the Justice Department goes down, has this meeting. A key question is whether who is in the room. Normally, you would always want two people to be there, two people from the prosecution side, because one would be a witness to whatever Ghislaine Maxwell was saying. We can't get an answer from the Justice Department about that. And what's so strange is this, again, lack of transparency when it seems like politically what they need most is transparency. So we have no sense is he going to meet with her again? What's going to be next? And then there's these rumors or thoughts of a pardon for her floating around at the same time.

[Ali Vitale]

So let's turn to you, Lisa, on that very idea. We heard the reporter's question there about a pardon. Trump certainly didn't deny it. He sort of said, well, I haven't been thinking about it. Who knows if that's true or not. But that is what many have said here is that perhaps Maxwell could offer, you know, some sort of testimony that would exonerate Trump and then be rewarded.

[Frank Foer]

Well. And in addition to exonerating Trump, the Justice Department itself has painted itself into a box with respect to additional evidence. And I'm just going to read to you now the July memo that sort of caused all this kerfuffle. The says unambiguously, we did not uncover evidence that could predicate an investigation against uncharged third parties. In layman's terms, we didn't find anything that we could use to charge anybody else. So if you're the Justice Department and you've already boasted about doing this360review of all of the evidence at your disposal, and not just the grand jury materials, but all the hours of interviews, the videos, et cetera, what choice do you have but to go to the one other thing that might be out there, the Rosetta Stone, as she called of the Epstein investigation, Ghislaine Maxwell. Whether or not she's trustworthy is, of course, a major open question. She herself is charged with three counts of perjury, for which she was never tried. But the reason that they're going there isn't just to exonerate Trump. It's because any hope of putting this to bed has to come up with something new that they haven't already seen because they've told the world, we looked at everything and we found nothing.

[Ali Vitale]

And you're right to question Maxwell's credibility. The DOJ itself did that all along. So as an example of how this story's simply not going anywhere, the manosphere, if you will, the MAGA, supporting podcasters and the like, have still very much latched on, beginning with podcaster Joe Rogan, who's criticizing the Trump administration for its handling of the Epstein files. He called them out Friday on his show while speaking to a former CIA official also critical of the Trump administration, comedian and podcaster Andrew Schultz, who says he voted for the president. He is rebuking the base, like, almost like spitting in their face, like they are asking for it. He campaigned on it. He puts Bongino and Cash in there, which might be the stupidest thing in the history of the world.

[John Heilman]

Like, why would you put the two.

[Ali Vitale]

Guys that have nonstop pounded the pavement talking about how we're gonna expose this Epstein thing, and the second they get in there, like, you better shut the up. Yeah, to shut him up.

[John Heilman]

Go on, Rogan, lie.

[Ali Vitale]

Like, it is a very peculiar thing. It worked in that I think it moved any of the smoke off of Trump, because at least for me, I was like, there's no way that he's involved. If he's putting Bongino and Cash in, who have campaigned on exposing it, like, why would you hire those guys or appoint those guys, right? So I'm like, He can't be. But the fact that he will not touch this. And then this last week, him doing the distractions, dropping the MLK file. Like, who asked for the MLK file? The second he started talking about Obama, I was like, oh, he's guilty.

[John Heilman]

Why are you talking about Obama and treason?

[Ali Vitale]

You got a guy who has sex with teenagers that you are protecting? The Epstein stuff is so crazy, because when Cash Patel was on here and he was like, there's no. There's nothing. And I was like, what are you talking. Yeah. I didn't even know what to say. My thought was. And people like, why didn't you push back more? My thought was like, I'm just going to put this out there and let the Internet do its work, because there's nothing I can. The guy's saying, there's no tapes, there's no video. That doesn't make any sense. Everyone knows it doesn't make any sense. The whole thing was nuts. And then they really. He's like, well, we have a film. We're going to release that film, and the film has a minute missing from it.

[John Heilman]

Yeah.

[Ali Vitale]

Like, do you think we're babies? Like, what is this? The backstory, of course. FBI Director Cash Patel, who was on Rogan's show last month, promising to release everything that the administration could. But Patel has since faced blowback from Trump supporters after the DOJ earlier this month released a memo confirming that Epstein had died by suicide and that there was no evidence the financier had a client list that could lead to more prosecution. So, John Heilman, you're our Manosphere correspondent, and I wanted to get your sense as to why you think this is a rift. We know that the Epstein conspiracy theories really erupted on the right, and President Trump, for the first time, has been unable to sort of put it back in the box. Like, these people, Rogan, Schultz, the. Like, they're not letting it go.

[Jonath Lemire]

Yeah, they're not idiots. And a lot of those guys, like Andrew Schultz and Joe Rogan, really have been portrayed as being MAGA media. They're not really MAGA media. They ended up siding with the president in 2024. Famously, Joe Rogan was Bernie Sanders guy for a long time. And you can listen to Andrew Schultz. He talks about how much he likes Zor Ahmadani. They are anti establishment, they are anti elite, and they are not about Rogan. But if you listen to that Andrew Schultz podcast with Ezra Klein the other day, he'd done with Trump. I mean, he's finished. He's moving on. He thinks Trump is now, to Andrew Schultz's mind, at least as I listened to that two and a half hour podcast, he basically is like Trump has revealed himself to be just another elite politician who's covering up for the rich and famous. And that is, of course, the huge political risk here for Trump. He has misread his core constituency and what they want and what he stoked from the very beginning. And I will say as we come back around, I agree that the prospect, the only reason you're going down, having Todd Blanche go down and talk to Ghislaine Maxwell this way, is at least if a pardon is on the table, that's what she's going to want. There's no reason to send Todd Blanche down there if you're not going to have that conversation. And if they give her a pardon now, it will do nothing but make this worse because again, the Andrew Schultz's and Joe Rogans and many of the people on the base, including people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, will see that for what it is. She's the woman who knows everything and she's gonna be given a pardon now with Mike Johnson saying she should have a life sentence. She should have worse than a life sentence if she's given a pardon to stand up and say Donald Trump did nothing wrong. No one in Trump's base or in the manosphere or anyone else who wanted to have clarity about Jeffrey Epstein, no one is going to believe it. It's going to make Trump look even guiltier. Another potentially vast misreading of what he has unleashed here.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, that would be an extraordinary firestorm. Ali Vitali, let's go to you. You cover the Hill. Let's talk about Mike Johnson, who much of his political career has prided himself no daylight between speakership and the White House. But yet now, I mean, for a week, two weeks now, he has been willing to break with Trump on the matter of Epstein. What is that reflective of? Is that his constituents and frankly, his caucus talking to him about it? Yeah.

[John Hamon]

It's the realities of the conference. Right. Because no daylight works when you're passing legislation that's in lots of lockstep with the White House. Every Republican wants to say that they notched a legislative win. But on this, there's a much more complicated dynamic, especially when these folks have to go home and talk to the very same voters that for years they and Trump, hand in hand, promised transparency on this issue. And so the speaker has had to toe this very delicate line of knowing that none of his members want to be seen as the ones that have their names stamped next to Thomas Massie, as the ones that buck the White House. But none of them also want to have their names on specifically on the dotted line to be the ones that held up the release of the files that they promised to release in the first place. And so this really is a merry go round of Republicans facing their own campaign promises and now the consequences of not fulfilling them. I think for Speaker Johnson, it was interesting on Meet the Press this weekend the way that he seemed to say, well, the reason that I'm not behind the bipartisan push for transparency on the Epstein files is because the Khana Massey legislation doesn't have enough protections in it for victims.

[Frank Foer]

Okay.

[John Hamon]

If you actually have that as your only concern, you could go back to those same two legislators and say, this is the problem I have with it. Can we offer an amendment? Can we rewrite a piece of the bill? That could be something that's actually a pretty easy fix. And so if that's the central problem, there's a way to get around that and actually pass this legislation. And so the speaker is clearly trying to buy himself some time. Senators have been even more transparent about that, that they want DOJ to be able to buy the time to talk to Maxwell. That's, of course, problematic for all of the reasons that Lisa and David have pointed out. But this is a stalling measure that's only bolstered by the fact that August recess is on the calendar every year.

[John Heilman]

And what's going to come out is.

[Ali Vitale]

The underlying intelligence that I have spent.

[John Heilman]

The last few months making recommendations about.

[Ali Vitale]

Final declassification and sent that to the Department of Justice that will come out in the John Durham Report classified annex. And what that intelligence shows, Maria, is.

[John Heilman]

That part of this was a Hillary Clinton plan, but part of it was.

[Ali Vitale]

An FBI plan to be an accelerant to that fake Steele dossier, to those fake Russia collusion claims by pouring oil.

[John Heilman]

On the fire, by amplifying the lie and bearing the truth of what was.

[Ali Vitale]

What Hillary Clinton was up to. That was CIA Director John Ratcliffe claiming that former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton conspired to manufacture intelligence during the 2016 Russian election interference probe in an effort to undermine Donald Trump's victory. Meanwhile, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina is calling for a special counsel investigation into the matter. On Meet The Press yesterday, NBC's Kristen Welker confronted the senator about those claims, reminding him that in 2017, he agreed with the intelligence community's finding that Russia did try to interfere in the 2016 election, Senator.

[Frank Foer]

Are you trying to rewrite history to.

[John Hamon]

Distract from the Epstein matter?

[Frank Foer]

Senator?

[Ali Vitale]

No, I'm trying to let you know and the media know that we found something we didn't know before. At the end of the day, I'm not calling for a prosecution against President Obama for treason, but I am calling for an investigation. Mr. Miller also said there was no credible evidence that President Trump colluded with the Russians. For years and months and days and weeks, people had their lives turned upside down chasing the Mueller narrative, that Trump was in bed with the Russians, that the Trump campaign was colluding with the Russians. The only people colluding with the Russians were the Hillary Clinton campaign and Christopher Steele manufacturing a document to get warrants against Carter Page based on lies and falsehoods. So, yeah, I'm very familiar with it. What you don't seem to acknowledge is there's something new being found. Rather than reinventing the wheel here, let's go back to a special counsel model to look at this something new. Something new is statements by President Obama. I don't like your analysis. Russia wasn't involved here in 2016, Senator.

[Frank Foer]

You'Re saying there's something new. This report goes back to 2020.

[John Hamon]

It's five years old. There's actually nothing new in this report and nothing that changes any conclusion.

[Ali Vitale]

But let me, I want to talk about Gaza over. Is new to me, Senator. It's new to me. But Senator, you're trying to sweep this stuff under the rug and that's not right.

[Frank Foer]

But Senator, you know that at the time you said you, you did believe the assessments and the multiple investigations.

[John Hamon]

But let me move on to Gaza. Let's talk about Gaza, Senator, because this is so.

[Ali Vitale]

Senator Graham with a muttered whatever there at the end of his exchange with Kristen Welker on Meet the Press yesterday, David Rowd, clearly exasperated, put on the spot. But let's get to the heart of the matter. Is there anything new? Graham is now suggesting that there's new. All these years later, new evidence has materialized that would warrant this sort of investigation. Can you fact check him?

[John Heilman]

No, There is nothing new here. And our colleague Dan Deluse, an NBC reporter, spoke to the CIA officer, the senior officer who oversaw writing these reports, the main report about what happened in 2016. And she said that Tulsi Gabbard is lying and the White House is lying. This talk of Obama and treason and plot is false. And if you look at the report, report, whether it's the Senate intelligence report or the initial assessment, it's that Russia intervened in the election to denigrate Hillary Clinton. It was Putin's personal animus towards Hillary Clinton, you know, full stop. And I just want to say they keep mentioning the dossier. I was a reporter for Reuters at the time we had the dossier. Most mainstream journalist organizations had the Dossier during the 2016 election. We didn't write a word about it because we couldn't verify it. The dossier was not an issue in the 2016 election. So it's all these talks of plots and all these things like that. And it's. I can just say in terms of the dossier and journalists that had it, we didn't write about it. And again, the author, the person who oversaw this report, said that Tulsi Gabbard is lying when it comes to a treasonous plot.

[Frank Foer]

John, if I can add something, David just disputed the factual basis for what Lindsey Graham was saying. Let me take on the legal one, if I can. Calling for a special counsel investigation here is almost laughable because the Supreme Court's presidential immunity decision would preclude any prosecution of President Obama for treason based on his official acts. The only reason you would want a special counsel here is to continually put him and other people under the microscope in the hopes that it would lead to something else, a la Whitewater style.

[Ali Vitale]

Right.

[Frank Foer]

That Ken Starr starts investigating, one thing, ends up with a Monica Lewinsky like situation. But in any event, for the most part, that presidential immunity decision is broad. It gave Trump protection against two federal cases and it should prevent against any prosecution, much less an investigation of former President Obama.

[Jonath Lemire]

John, I go back to our earlier conversation, which is, and I'll turn the table on you, which is, I understand the unending catnip like appeal of this issue for Donald Trump. And some of it is not just political posturing, but there's some deeper psychological thing that goes going on with Trump around this. He just can't let it go and his obsession with Obama and all the rest of it. But again, I come back to the question of whether, putting aside the legal issues, which are totally reasonable, like there is no, there's not going to be no prosecutor Barack Obama, even if there was a basis for it. Is this gonna. How has this accomplished anything for Trump on the core issue that's actually bedeviling him right now? Do you see some way in which this is, you're a great student of Donald Trump and his Houdini like ability to get out of jams. Is this a path forward for him that will solve his problem with his base?

[Ali Vitale]

I mean, it can't be. He cannot be underestimated in his ability to get out of jams. We have seen him time and time again do it. I'm not sure this is it. Yes, this feels like an attempt to, to play a greatest hit, knowing it'll incite some of the base. It'll get play on Fox News and the like. I think you're right. There's something also deeply personal for Trump when it comes to both Obama and questions about the validity of his 2016 election. We know how he bristles at the very concept that Russia interfered on his behalf, even though we know and the Senate Intelligence Committee concurred that it did. I think it's more of an example of him just sort of flailing here. And I've talked to and reported last week or so how much the White House has really struggled to come up with some sort of game plan to navigate their way out of the Epstein mess, that they are frustrated that they can't turn the page on this. And we saw it yesterday in Scotland. Look, President Trump got a trade deal done. He got his legislation through. No one's talking about that. They're talking only about this. And that is driving him nuts. Lisa, before we let you go, you've been focused with laser like intensity on the Emile Beauvais matter. Give us the latest as to where his situation stands.

[Frank Foer]

Well, on Friday afternoon, the Senate voted the last procedural vote, 50 to 48, to let ML Bovey's nomination go to the floor of the Senate. That vote is expected as early as today. But also on Friday, there was a discovery that in addition to Erez Ravaney, the former Department of Justice lawyer who blew the whistle on his interactions with Amel Bovey, there are two additional whistleblowers, both former DOJ lawyers, who have come forward. One has come forward to the DOJ inspector general with evidence that he or she says corroborates Erez Rovini's story. Documents and evidence that that person says show that the Department of Justice willfully did not comply with an order from Judge James Boasberg concerning the deportation of Venezuelans under the Alien Enemies Act. What that other whistleblower has to say, we don't know. But there we have verification that the whistleblower and or their counsel has provided evidence to the Senate Judiciary Committee. Democrats, we're looking for more to hear what they both have to say. One of them trying very hard right now, John, to hew closely to the whistleblower protections and regulations and going about this in the right way. Which is to the inspector general. But I want to point out to you and our viewers that person came Forward initially on May 2, well before Erez Rouveni ever blew the whistle on Amel Bovey. This is not a coordinated effort, according to to people close to that whistleblower. Eris Reuveni has no idea who that whistleblower is and has not communicated with that whistleblower about their own reporting. So we remain focused on it today. We'll bring it to you as it comes.

[Ali Vitale]

We'll be watching for it. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, thank you so much for being here with us this morning. You can check out Lisa's show. Can they do that on MSNBC's YouTube channel? NBC's Dava Rhode, thank you as well. His latest reporting Online now, Saturday, October 11th.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

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[Ali Vitale]

More.

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